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Danny42C
1st Dec 2015, 01:50
Warmtoast (your #7730).
I was as happy as could be. I taxied up, stopped and braked. Try as I did, I couldn’t restrain the broad grin which gripped me
There are few days in life about which you can confidently say: "I'll remember that day as long as I live". Every pilot can recall exactly the detail of his first solo, which of course must always come as a surprise (even as a shock), although you'd been hoping and praying for it.

The realisation that your instructor has so much faith in you, that he will stake his reputation on your ability to do this, buoys you up. You can't let him down, no time to feel nervous, you know what to do, now get on with it.

In a minute or two it's all over, you've done it ! You're a pilot now, nothing can take that away from you. Of all the flights (perhaps thousands of them) that you will fly in the years to come, nothing can equal this. Have you forgotten the name of the instructor who turned you loose that day ? No, I thought not, and you never will ! (Mine was Bob Greer).

Danny. :ok:

Danny42C
1st Dec 2015, 02:08
Geriaviator (your #7735),
...early Oxfords had fixed pitch wooden props, but had a pitch control knob which had to be moved into 'fine pitch' for takeoff and landing. The control didn't do anything except to embed 'pitch' as a vital item of cockpit drill
Now I've heard everything !! A control with NO Function ! Just to give the poor pilot something extra to do - as if he didn't have enough already !

Rates with a "Pub with No Beer". This was not uncommon in the immediate postwar years. The barmaid would drape a teacloth over the pumps, so the thirsty customer only had to poke his head round the door, read the dread signal, and try further down the street.

But it was a good life.

Danny.

Petet
1st Dec 2015, 10:03
I have just been reading through a pamphlet which was issued to airmen who were "on hold" at ACDC, Heaton Park, Manchester and I came across this section which I thought I would share, as I love the manner in which it is written:

"Mugs are issued to you against your signature when you arrive at this station and returned by you when you leave us. If your mug is damaged on return you will have to pay the cost of a new one (about 7d.) so look after it.

Crockery is not easy to get these days (as witness the things they get you to eat out of when you go home on leave). If you want to take away a souvenir of Heaton Park, take a piece of mud ... there is plenty of that, but don't take it all, because we like to do a bit of mud-slinging amongst ourselves sometimes."

Fareastdriver
1st Dec 2015, 10:18
Now I've heard everything !! A control with NO Function !

IIRC there was an Australian fixed undercarriage training aircraft, possibly the Wackett, that had an mock undercarriage handle in the cockpit so as to instill the operation of as a habit for u/t pilots.

MPN11
1st Dec 2015, 11:02
On returning from my Det in FI, I was deficient qty one, mug, plastic, for which I was duly billed something like £1.07.


Apparently Supply Sqn at RAF Uxbridge had no powers to write off items issued by RAF Innsworth :mad:

Geriaviator
1st Dec 2015, 15:50
Seventy-five years on, the commemorations for the Battle of Britain have been deservedly welcomed. Nobody could not have been thrilled by the mass formation of Spitfires, the re-running of stirring film clips, the magnificent oratory of Winston Churchill both before and after the decisive contest to control the air.

But as usual there has been hardly a mention of Bomber Command, whose crews fought so many battles night after night for five years. So here's a figure to ponder: more bomber airmen died on the night of March 30/31, 1944, than were lost by Fighter Command during the four months of the Battle of Britain in 1940. Those who survived told of the route to and from Nuremberg being marked by burning aircraft.

Am I the only one to notice that the rare mentions on BBC in particular will refer to the RAF's 'controversial' bombing campaign? I remember some TV poser, hands waving furiously, spouting from a Hamburg street and telling us that the workers' houses had been devastated and thousands had been killed. Too bad he didn't go a couple of miles north and show us the U-boat facilities which Bomber Command had also devastated. According to Speer, the raid had cost Germany two months of U-boat production at a time when submarine warfare posed the biggest threat to Britain.

In no way would I wish to detract from the achievements and sacrifice of Fighter Command. But stories such as those on this thread are important to those who believe that every item of information concerning Bomber Command needs to be preserved, indeed treasured. The 55,573 airmen who gave their lives deserve no less.

Danny42C
1st Dec 2015, 18:57
Pete, and MPN11,

Crockery is not easy to get these days

The solution was an enamel mug. I was issued with one, it clattered a bit when carried with your "irons", but it was virtually indescructible.

Danny.

Danny42C
1st Dec 2015, 21:28
Geriaviator,
....I remember some TV poser, hands waving furiously, spouting from a Hamburg street and telling us that the workers' houses had been devastated and thousands had been killed.

Spot on ! As an old uncle of mine (trenches WWI) used to say: "when the scrap-iron starts flying about, everybody's likely to get hurt".

In a quiet little church in Falaise, N. France, (2008 pop; 8300), is a wall tablet commemorating the death of 300 civilians in the 1944 battles.

As I recall, thousands were killed in the London 'Blitz' in 1941. In 1942, "They have sown the wind", declared Harris, "they will reap the whirlwind"....And they did !

War is War, it is not nice, the innocent suffer with the guilty. It was ever so, and ever will be.

Danny.

Danny42C
1st Dec 2015, 21:37
Fixed Cross,

This sounds like a thundering good idea ! After my time,sadly :{

Danny42c.

Chugalug2
1st Dec 2015, 22:53
Danny 42C:-
The solution was an enamel mug. I was issued with one, it clattered a bit when carried with your "irons", but it was virtually indescructible.
I too, as a CCF cadet at summer camp, was so equipped. Being keen to do everything according to the book, we marched to the airmen's mess holding it and the irons in the left hand held in the small of the back, while swinging the right arm as per normal.

When we had consumed our vittles, the plates were scraped off into the swill bins and stacked for the staff to feed into the dishwasher, while our personal implements were rinsed off in a trough of superheated water (well so it seemed), shaken, returned to the left hand and small of the back for the return march to the billet. Oh how proud of us our Mums would have been!

Danny42C
2nd Dec 2015, 04:17
Chugalug,

Well do I remember my white enamelled "tin" mug, with a blue rim, as I recall. Lord knows what happened to it.
....rinsed off in a trough of superheated water...
My recollection is of troughs of a barely lukewarm, disgusting liquid, a sort of Sargasso Sea of nameless scraps of fatty food and God knows what else. Why we didn't all get dysentery, I'll never know. :(
All the currents deposit the marine plants and refuse they carry into this sea. [Wiki]
Things got a little better when we got to Canada, and once in the States we had the unexpected luxury of waiter (silver) service (smart white jackets, no less). This was because the USAAC couldn't quite make out what an LAC was, so played it safe by treating us as the Aviation Cadets they were familiar with (while not, of course, paying us as such). :*

Back in UK as Sgts, we had the good food and inexpensive comforts of a Sgts' Mess. Later, elevated to the Peerage, we had the rather less good food and considerably more expensive comforts of the Officers' Mess.

In India, you were a Sahib, and that was that (at the head of the queue for everything).

But they were good days !

Danny.

MPN11
2nd Dec 2015, 07:50
My recollection is of troughs of a barely lukewarm, disgusting liquid, a sort of Sargasso Sea of nameless scraps of fatty food and God knows what else. Why we didn't all get dysentery, I'll never know.

I like to think that these processes, and the general hygiene standards of the day, enabled us to build up natural resistance to most things. In consequence, I never seem to suffer from 'digestive hurry', the 'common cold' [is there a special up-market cold for officers?] and the like.

Today, everything is sanitised to the extreme, and ineradicable super-bugs are taking control, whilst the younger generations seem to be forever victims to some minor ailment or another.

Chugalug2
2nd Dec 2015, 08:40
Danny:-
War is War, it is not nice, the innocent suffer with the guilty. It was ever so, and ever will be.Such a short sentence, yet probably the most profound thing you have ever written for us, Danny. Here we are yet again poised on the precipice, yet this simple proposition is once again being swamped by the grandstanding, name calling, and irritable discussion that purports to be democratic debate. This thread is not the place for such debate (though this forum most certainly is), but Geriaviator's:-
Am I the only one to notice that the rare mentions on BBC in particular will refer to the RAF's 'controversial' bombing campaign?goes to the nub. The BBC stance is to compare the "indiscriminate bombing" of WWII with the precision technology of today. In both cases you are limited by the technological capability extant. In WWII Bomber Command navigated by night using dubious forecast winds, Astro and Drift Sights when the weather permitted, and electronic aids when the enemy permitted, blind to the rest of the stream that they knew were all around them (or hoped so at least). That with luck might get them over the target city (the size of which greatly increased that luck). They didn't then just bomb the city, but aimed at or relative to targeting flares dropped by the Pathfinders, who unlike the bulk of the crews had cheated the odds to become sufficiently experienced. The intention thus was to hit a vital target within the city, perhaps the industrial, communication, or command part of it. Harris might have used blood thirsty rhetoric, but he needed to in order to send his "old lags" off on such a perilous business night after night.

If they had been blessed with today's navigation and weapons technology their aim would no doubt have been truer. Their intention though was the same as today, to hit the target! The incentive was there anyway. If the nerve-wracking 30 secs S&L that Petet rightly reminds us of, to take the target photo, did not reveal sufficient success then they were doomed to repeat the exercise again, against a now fully alerted defence.

The slur that has been aimed at these very courageous men by the main stream intelligentsia is disgraceful. That it took a Pop Singer to ensure that an appropriate national memorial was eventually erected to them is a reflection on this nation and its values. Yet it stands now in quiet rebuke to the chattering classes at Portland Place.

Danny42C
2nd Dec 2015, 09:19
MPN11,
[is there a special up-market cold for officers?] and the like ?

There is a new kind of cold for everybody around here. For most of my enormous life span I have been regularly afflicted with "Codes in de Dose" (acute Rhinitis), but with advancing age these have become less frequent and in recent years have ceased completely. This new model has left my nose and sinuses completely unbunged up, admittedly a bit "runny" but not uncomfortably so. It has gone straight for the lungs, making expectoration difficult and introducing a novel sympton, what I call a "runaway (uncontrollable) cough" (analogous to a "runaway gun").

And it has lasted five weeks (far longer than the "ordinary" cold [1-2 weeks], but like an "ordinary" cold is self-limiting). Needless to say, Mrs D. got it too.

Your general thesis is correct - in the days when babes crawled happily all over dusty floors all day, and nobody bothered, children didn't get asthma in later years.

Danny.

Petet
2nd Dec 2015, 10:03
But stories such as those on this thread are important to those who believe that every item of information concerning Bomber Command needs to be preserved, indeed treasured. The 55,573 airmen who gave their lives deserve no less.


My partner's grandfather was one of those 55,573 airmen who lost their lives. Having researched and documented his service life I am now in the process of trying to preserve the history of his squadron (No. 35 Squadron).

The project has resulted in nearly 200 requests for information from relatives of men who served with the squadron, some who were killed by the enemy, others by friendly fire, some who were POW or evaders and others who survived one or multiple tours.

It's a labour of love for me, which I am enjoying doing when my spare time permits.

When I first started out on the research trail a few years ago, it was clear that very little is documented about war time training, hence my interest in gaining as much information as I can on that subject whilst it is available .... this thread has proved invaluable in that process ..... so long may it continue.

The training pamphlets that were issued fascinate me, as they were down to earth and written with humour, although many would not get past the politically correct brigade today.

Whilst on the subject of the pamphlets, I attach the following cartoon which accompanied the text in my post "A slight detour to ACDC, Heaton Park"

https://35squadronresearch.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/mug-cartoon.jpg

"Mugs are issued to you against your signature when you arrive at this station and returned by you when you leave us. If your mug is damaged on return you will have to pay the cost of a new one (about 7d.) so look after it.

Danny42C
2nd Dec 2015, 10:45
Chugalug,

To which I can only say 'Amen'.

We are cursed with idiots in high (and low) places in politics and in the meeja, who won't grasp that you cannot apply to the past the standards of the present. The most egregious example of this in recent years has been Blair's "apology" for our part in the slave trade.

Harris did what he was told by the War Cabinet, with what he had, not what he would have liked. The wonder is that they had an average error of (I believe) of only five miles.

Inevitably, there would be many civilan casualties (when the practice was to build the houses round the factories - the plebs didn't have cars in those days - there would be bound to be).

Rightly or wrongly, this was thought to be a Good Thing as a secondary objective. Hitler tried to break the morale of the British people by mass bombing. He failed. We thought that we could break the morale of the German people by the "collateral damage" that we had to inflict. We failed.

As I said, there are no "nice" wars, but some are worse than others.

Danny.

Geriaviator
2nd Dec 2015, 15:33
http://s20.postimg.org/4vr2mckhp/Jack_Stafford_rotorua.jpg

Wartime Tempest pilot Flt Lt Jack Stafford, DFC, RNZAF, pictured in 1945 and earlier this year when he was interviewed for the Rotorua Daily Post, to which we are very grateful for this superb photograph of a great character. Mr. Stafford returned to New Zealand in 1946 and founded a construction company. His many interests included writing and water-skiing; he captained the New Zealand team in the 1979 world championships, and continued to ski until his 78th birthday. He died in Auckland on August 1 this year at the age of 92.


A newly minted pilot finds alienation at home
Post no. 6 from the memoirs of Tempest pilot Flt Lt Jack Stafford, DFC, RNZAF

At last it was over. I did not realise it, but of course my training was just the beginning. Now my thoughts were on the moment of truth, which would arrive sooner or later when I met the enemy. I put all that behind me as I journeyed to Rotorua on final leave. Splendid in my blue uniform with those coveted wings on the left breast, I was very pleased with myself.

The days passed pleasantly and quickly. I fished, I hunted, and I wandered in the bush at Kaharoa. With my father, who had just turned 40, I climbed through the bush on hunting trips, and spent days and nights out on the farm. But I could hardly believe the gulf that had opened between me and most of the people with whom I had been so close only 12 months earlier.

My single-minded devotion to the Air Force was beyond them; they could not understand my experiences in the air. At first I was keen to discuss my flying in great detail, but I could not get through to them. Our lives had taken very different paths, and nothing was the same. I found it very hard to accept that their interests were still centred on the weather, the stock, the fragile old fence on the back boundary, who would be at the dance on Saturday night, and so on.

Christ! Didn't they realise what an exciting world it was? If I spoke about life in the Air Force people would listen politely but before long their disinterest became obvious and they would remember that the ewes had to be shifted in the top paddock or business had to be done in town. I must have been a bore, but this was not where my life was to be lived. The sky had captivated my soul and it was there I must live or die. Life without the experience of combat would be a living death. But finally the leave was over, and I was called to Wellington for embarkation.

With relief I travelled to Frankton Junction to join the Limited Express. One or two of the pilots from Hamilton and Auckland were aboard and it was a great pleasure to talk again about our mutual love affair with flying. We dozed and read; we had railway coffee in railway cups that were almost as large as the 'jerry' under my grandfather's bed. The coffee washed down the thick railway sandwiches. The night wore on, sleep came to us, and we awoke to observe the final hours into Wellington.

We had been ordered to report to the Air Department, where we were given vouchers for accommodation in various hotels, all first class. Each morning we reported to the Department, where we were instructed to report next day, same time.

When we reached Wellington I found that a small group of Blenheim girls had come to see us off. One of the Auckland pilots had been writing to a girl and had sent a telegram to say we would be in the capital city. We were glad of their company, as the city had a large number of American Marines in residence and they had dominated the young women. We spent every day with these girls and most nights we went with them to the Majestic Cabaret. It was all most pleasant, the girls were great to be with, lots of fun. They were faithful to us although the American boys tried hard to separate us.

What happened afterwards after we left, of course, I never knew and I never cared. No doubt human nature did what human nature always does. While we were there they gave us their undivided attention and I appreciated that. What more could you ask?

Danny42C
2nd Dec 2015, 19:13
Geriaviator,

Get that hat !

Seriously, what a wonderful opening chapter in what promises to be a story fully worthy of an equal place in this anthology of gripping reminiscences. We are all standing by in pleasurable anticipation.

And thank you, Geriaviator, for bringing it to our notice !

Danny.

EDIT: Geriaviator,

For no particular reason, I revisited my priggish Post, :
Geriaviator (your #7724), Gracias tibi !
Tiny nit-pick: I am DIONYSIUS in the tongue of the Caesars.
Dug a bit deeper, seems I have a close relation DIONYSUS, but he is rather a more disreputable character, and our ever-forgiving Moderator would balk at the selfie, so you can look for yourselves [WIki] and judge whether he is an improvement.

D.

Walter603
3rd Dec 2015, 00:18
Our billets at Newquay were in various seaside residential hotels, "taken over" for the duration of the war. My hotel was the "Highbury". Our dining room (Mess Hall) was inanother hotel with a magnificent picture window facing on to the Cornish coast.

At the end of our ITW course, we became L.A.Cs. (Leading Aircraftmen) which was indicated by the "propellers" insignia sewn on each upper sleeve of our tunics. It was then that we were given our postings for the first part of our flying training. Several of my close mates were sent overseas, as part of the Empire Air Training Scheme. Some went to Canada, and some to Rhodesia. To my regret I was not one of the lucky ones. I went instead for my flying training to Meir airfield, at Stoke-on-Trent, Nottinghamshire on11th July 1941.

In the centre of what was called "The Potteries", the main industry in Stoke was making domestic china and pottery of all descriptions. I was billetted with my fellow trainees in an Army drill hall on the outskirts of Stoke, and transported daily by R.A.F truck to the airfield.

In spite of the war, those were very happy days for me. We flew Miles Magister aircraft - low-winged single engine training monoplanes. Sergeant Mills was my first instructor. It took eight hours dual flying for me to "go solo", and I shall never forget the sensation of that first powered flight by myself. I shouted and sang as I swept around the airfield circuit, and came in to a very competent landing in a state of great excitement.

During the 6 weeks that followed, we did circuits and bumps, precautionary and forced landings, aerobatics, cross-country flights, etc. and we finished our elementary training with about 100 flying hours each. I was delighted to receive an "above average" assessment in my flying log book at the end of the course in August 1941. The assessment came in spite of the fact that I had my first prang, when I became lost on a solo cross-country one day and decided to make a precautionary landing in a small field. The landing was good to start with, but I failed to stop in time, and ran into a hedge protecting a little cottage. No injury and little damage to the kite. The nice elderly lady in the cottage treated me to tea - boiled eggs with bread and butter, followed by fruit and fresh cream!

Danny42C
3rd Dec 2015, 01:41
Walter,
Our dining room (Mess Hall) was in another hotel with a magnificent picture window facing on to the Cornish coast.
99% sure it would be the "Trebarwith" (don't think there were two Mess Halls). Were your Classrooms in the same building ? Ours were.
we became L.A.Cs. (Leading Aircraftmen) which was indicated by the "propellers" insignia sewn on each upper sleeve of our tunics.
More to the point, our pay went up from 2/- to 5/6 per day !
Several of my close mates were sent overseas, as part of the Empire Air Training Scheme. Some went to Canada, and some to Rhodesia. To my regret I was not one of the lucky ones. I went instead for my flying training to Meir airfield, at Stoke-on-Trent, Nottinghamshire on.11th July 1941
I've always been of the opinion that nearly all of us went out to the Arnold Schools in the US. Seems I was quite wrong (the tricks that memory plays !). But now (without any intention of "shooting your foxes"), I guess that you'd do EFTS and SFTS in the UK. What were your total hours to wings ? (we've never been able to pin this down so far).
Sergeant Mills was my first instructor
You see ? - you'll never forget him !
The landing was good to start with, but I failed to stop in time


Calls to mind the famous"Curate's Egg" in "Punch" ("Oh no, My Lord, I assure you - it is good in parts !") Any landing is a good one if you can walk away from it (and you got your "operational egg" into the bargain !)

But overall, exactly what we all want here (the tea, eggs and bread and butter bring it all to life - we can see the cottage, the nice old lady, and your Magister stuck in the hedge ! Can't help fast-forwarding three years and five thousand miles, and see S/Ldr Traill (OC 45) with a Vengeance stuck up a banana tree.

Keep it coming, Danny.

Walter603
3rd Dec 2015, 02:26
Danny, you're quite right about the feeling we were at least old hands if not veteran airmen, to have 5 months service when we mixed in with raw recruits at Babbacombe.
Another smirk with the bare bedroom story: I didn't have to buy a mirror. I did not shave until I was 21. That was in Sicily after it was invaded and captured in 1943. So I took the first shave, didn't think too much of it, then a few weeks later I was shot down and captured. Shave? No thanks. It was postponed until arrival home in April 1945 when I was 22.
Finance as a PoW was also not worrying. Nothing to earn, nothing to buy. It was 8 months before I knew I had been commissioned, and I still got home as previously remaarked, to find I had a sizeable bank balance of RAF pay.

Walter603
3rd Dec 2015, 03:18
Dahny, First things first. You'd have my lovely daughter in tears to know that you're up in the middle of the British night studying PPrune posts! At home here it is now 1440 hrs Thursday 3 December. My post has been open about 2 hours, so you were up and about from 0130 hrs at your home. I hope you're keeping warm, and please look after yourself.
I can't remember where our classrooms were. I'm still trying hard to fit a certain Danny-for-real into the scenery. I'm convinced we were close. Did you spot "Highbury" as the dormtory hotel?
Another sad part of my war story included the loss of my log book, so I don't have a precise record of my flying hours to Wings presentation. When I flew with the RAFVR after the war, I caulculated that it was 60 on Magisters and 135 on Oxfords, a total of 195 of dual and solo.
Other wartime hours were 75 on Blenheims, 350 on Beaufighters.

Geriaviator
3rd Dec 2015, 15:21
http://s20.postimg.org/p0y017e0t/Miles_Magister.jpg

Miles Magister basic trainer. Like the more numerous Tiger Moth, it had a retractable hood for instrument flying practice.

Walter,
It's a real privilege to eavesdrop on the incredibly clear memories of you two veterans. Your old airfield at Stoke/Meir has long since been built over but there are still one or two Miles Magisters around. I'd be interested to know how the Magister compared with its far more numerous counterpart, the Tiger Moth; did you ever fly one? There's a report on the Magister at Miles Magister - Flight Tests - Pilot (http://www.pilotweb.aero/features/flight-tests/miles_magister_1_1973861)

Danny,
Well, one can't choose one's ancestors! Given your unfailing wit and good company, I still think Sqn Ldr Dionysus is your more likely predecessor, as Wingco the Rev. Dionysius seems rather a dour chappie :uhoh:

Danny42C
3rd Dec 2015, 17:57
Heads up !

Click on A-10 at work....with music and follow the link - you won't be disappointed !

I'd always thought the Giant Warthog to be a heavy, ponderous sort of thing, but here's this chap chucking it around like a Spitfire. Obviously a COIN aircraft par excellence, and exactly what I would think is needed in Irak/Syria now.

How could they think of retiring it in today's circumstances ? Wish I was 70 years younger and had one of these to fly.

Only cavil: could we see less of the pilot and the tail, and more of the front panel and the view ahead, please ?

Thanks, West Coast !

Danny42C.

MPN11
3rd Dec 2015, 18:58
Ah, but but but Danny42C ... the A-10 has a proper slab of wing [like a VV] and ailerons, unlike those found on a swept-back high-speed pointy-jet lift-generator :)

Danny42C
3rd Dec 2015, 19:30
Walter,
have my lovely daughter in tears
Worry not ! I'm essentially a nocturnal animal and can "cat-nap" anywhere/anytime.
I hope you're keeping warm, and please look after yourself.
I'm an old soldier - 'nuff said !
Did you spot "Highbury" as the dormitory hotel?
No, but there were dozens of hotels commandeered by the RAF. It would need to be close to the Trebarwith Hotel HQ
Another sad part of my war story included the loss of my log book
What on earth was your Adjutant (or the I.O.) doing, that he did not secure it with the rest of your effects for return to UK or other safe-keeping ?
a total of 195 of dual and solo
This is level-pegging with the 200 hrs of the "Arnold" Scheme; the best estimate so far on this Thread for UK training was around 140 IIRC. Around '41, Charles Graves, in his semi-official "The Thin Blue Line", said 60 hrs EFTS, then 60 hrs SFTS, to wings - 120 hrs. The truth probably is: there were so many different answers, nobody knows.

Danny.

Pom Pax
3rd Dec 2015, 20:20
Several of my close mates were sent overseas, as part of the Empire Air Training Scheme. Some went to Canada, and some to Rhodesia. To my regret I was not one of the lucky ones.
It was also my regret I didn't go to Canada. Going to Canada continued in the 50's as The NATO Air Training Plan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Air_Training_Plan). Through over taking 6 months from leaving school and getting to I.T.S. I missed being on the the last nav. course by 8 weeks and then was delayed a further 3 or 4 weeks as pilots were needed to fill the final Canadian course. Of course my reasons for disappointment were selfish, firstly I would have loved to see Canada and secondly as all trainee aircrew were now commissioned our mates got 1st class tickets on Cunard to Halifax whilst we got 2nd class British Rail to Emsworth!
By coincidence when I got to Thorney Island there was school mate just returned from Winnipeg having come from New York on (I think) the Ile de France. They had gone from Halifax by rail to London (Ont.) for acclimation was then on to Winnipeg. In Canada they lost their "privileged officer status" as they were now just NATO cadets. They were billeted 4 to a room and each of the four was a different nationality.

Danny42C
3rd Dec 2015, 21:36
Geriaviator,

Nice pic. It is well said: "If it looks right, it'll fly right !" On looks alone , this could be a pre-Chipmunk. But wouldn't the spats get bunged-up with mud ? Looks as if it would fly very nicely. But the wing loading per sq.ft is 10.5lb against the 7.6lb for the Tiggy, so I don't think it would be so floaty.

Yes, my preference would be Dionysus, but anno domine dictate Dionysius !

Danny. :(

Ubehagligpolitiker
3rd Dec 2015, 22:16
Danny, I didn't get to Newquay until 1966 but we were told that Watergate Bay Hotel was used in WW2 - I've sent you a PM

Chugalug2
3rd Dec 2015, 22:25
I'd just like to say what a delight it is to see Danny and Walter comparing notes, while half a world apart, about a time when they were mere weeks apart in training (a far wider gulf of course ;)). This is the thread at its best, and what it is surely all about. You are a joy, gentlemen, and I only hope that you find as much pleasure in recapturing your youth as we have in your describing it.

Geriaviator, thanks to you too for taking on the mantle of PPRuNe representative extraordinaire on behalf of Jack Stafford. He really paints a picture of an unchanging rural setting totally alien to the high tech world that he has entered. Well, if they didn't appreciate it, the Blenheim girls obviously did. I'm sure that we all empathise with that effect (if only!).

Gentlemen we are agog, so keep up the good work please. Thank you all.

Danny42C
3rd Dec 2015, 23:08
Ubehagligpolitiker ,

Am standing by for the PM (nothing yet 040005). EDIT: Nor 040055. EDIT: Nor 040610

The war had destroyed the holiday trade for the resorts on the South and East Coasts of Britain, for the beaches were all mined, tank-trapped and barbed wire entangled. The proprietors of the hotels and boarding houses there were, I suppose, only too glad to have their places commandeered by the Government for Service accommodation. I wouldn't think they got paid much, but it was enough to stave off the bankruptcy which was the alternative.

Further North and West, in places like Southport, Blackpool, Rhyl and Morecombe, in the large hotels they re-housed Government Ministries evacuated from London. These stayed there long after the war, I was offered a post on promotion in the Ministry of Food in Rhyl as late as 1949, but turned it down to accept an offer of a SSC in the RAF.

Watergate Bay Hotel (rings no bells) would have been just one of hundreds of similar places.

Danny.

Walter603
4th Dec 2015, 09:32
Re: Almost all went to USA/Canada for flying training.
Not so, Danny. Another keen memory has my Course standing outside Highbury Hotel, with Cpl Allway walking along the rows, little air force clerk following with paper lists in his hand. He touched each student on his way, saying to the clerk alternately, "Canada", "Rhodesia" "England". Anxious to see large parts of the world as early as possible, I stood with my fingers crossed, but I was one nominated to train at home. One big advantage was that I was posted to 219 Squadron 11 months after commencing ITW.
In later life with the RAAF I discovered that some Aussies were more than 2 years completing their training, due to the long travels from continent to continent.

Ubehagligpolitiker
4th Dec 2015, 09:34
Probably digitalis, sent again

oxenos
4th Dec 2015, 12:45
The Watergate Bay Hotel was commandeered and became the Officers Mess for St. Mawgan.
It was later used for Officers married quarters. (My Sqn Cdr. lived in one in 64-65.) It was not released until 67.
The Admiralty were even worse. The grabbed a big hotel in the middle of Bath (The Empire) and kept it into the '90s

Geriaviator
4th Dec 2015, 13:55
A young man sails for the far side of the world
Post no. 7 from the memoirs of Tempest pilot Flt Lt Jack Stafford, DFC, RNZAF
Many days passed until we reported to the Air Department and were instructed to get our gear from the hotel and report back. We were loaded into a truck and taken out to Rongotai, where we were subjected to short lectures, prodded and poked at, and given some money. Then we climbed back into the truck which took us to the wharf and marched aboard the Shaw Saville Line's Akaroa, a passenger ship which ran between the UK, Australia and New Zealand via the Panama Canal. We were four to a cabin and very comfortable. The Prime Minister and the Minister of Defence visited to give short, unctuous and insincere speeches before scuttling quickly from the ship to the security of their homes.

The evening wore on, and we were all quiet. Some pilots wrote letters, hoping to get them ashore, while others played cards. I mostly sat in silence and thought. Strange sounds came to us from the upper deck as we sat around the lounge. Bells rang, voices with strong English accents gave orders, and the Akaroa quietly slipped away from the dock.

People playing cards stopped, we were all silent, each young man quietened by the importance of this moment in his life. Like assassins in the night we stole down the harbour. It was very dark, and no flicker of light betrayed us to the shore. A high, thin layer of cloud obscured the stars and the sound of movement along the ship's waterline seemed indistinct and muffled. It was solemn, brooding, yet strangely dignified.

I felt slightly insecure and apprehensive. I could not know that three long years would pass before I returned to this harbour, or that in a matter of months many of us would be dead. The graveyards of Europe would be the final resting place for a large proportion of my comrades. I shuddered as a bleakness crept over me. I was not prepared for the loneliness that chilled my heart.

Union Jack
4th Dec 2015, 15:52
The Admiralty were even worse. The grabbed a big hotel in the middle of Bath (The Empire) and kept it into the '90s - Oxenos

Depends on your definition of worse I suppose, but you can see at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_Hotel,_Bath why the Engineer-in-Chief decided to move his department there in 1939, even though Pevsner was apparently not impressed.:ok:

Current local wisdom says that, if you move into one of the upmarket apartments, you will age overnight....:uhoh:

Jack

MPN11
4th Dec 2015, 17:50
If one is [briefly] talking about MoD properties, think of the plethora of buildings that, post-War, remained under the Defence banner for MANY decades.
Old War Office, Adastral, Northumberland, Kelvin, Lacon ... there were squillions of them!! And thats only from an RAF perspective!Now think what that sort of office space would have cost if purchased post-War. No wonder the Services hung on to what they had [conveniently] acquired!! ;)

Pontius Navigator
4th Dec 2015, 18:53
Metropole Hotel, various Air Int and MI, took an F3 crew there in 1990 for a brief on Kuwait etc, yes 1990 not 1991!

MPN11
4th Dec 2015, 19:03
Oops, forgot Metropole :D

The lt col in my office used to claim his bus fare every time he went to another building. I'm sure he spent more time collecting his 54p than he did being useful ;)

smujsmith
4th Dec 2015, 19:03
Just a little diversion gentlemen. The Watergate Bay hotel was the first "weekend away" that my future wife and myself enjoyed in the early 1970s. I'm quite surprised that it has connotations from WW2, it looked like a typical 1960s build when we went, not that we spent a lot of time studying the architecture.

Smudge :ouch:

MPN11
4th Dec 2015, 19:10
Diversion, Smuj? On this Thread? :D

Anyway ... enough of MoD buildings [I certainly had enough of them after 4 tours in them] and back to ...

... Our wonderful reminiscences from our superb contributors from days of yore, when men were men and silk scarves were mandatory for good reasons [:p]

This thread is better than almost any book I have ever read. :ok:

Danny42C
4th Dec 2015, 19:41
MPN11,

If the intention was to ease the chafing round the neck caused by screwing it round to see who was creeping up on you, a silk stocking (preferably delicately perfumed !) was a better option.

Danny :ok:

MPN11
4th Dec 2015, 19:51
Underwear fetishist! :ok:

Geriaviator
4th Dec 2015, 22:20
This discussion becoming rather overheated for old gents. I'm off to take my betablocker :uhoh:

Walter603
5th Dec 2015, 00:46
Geriaviator. I did enjoy flying the Magister. That's a good pic you've displayed. I did fly Tiger Moths after the war. They woudn't let me near a Beaufighter! I had about 200 hours in Tigers and I found them comfortable and reliable. Even better were the Canadian Chipmunks that came in time for me to praise them highly for their handling similarity with much larger aircraft. My reserve service was done at RAF Hornchurch, Essex.

Danny42C
5th Dec 2015, 01:33
Jack Stafford (RIP) through the voice of Geriaviator,

Wonderful, poetic Post !
We were four to a cabin and very comfortable.
Strangely enough, the same thing happened to me. On my first troopship (UK-Canada), four of us LACs were in a 2nd Class 4-bed cabin (not bad at all). Coming back Sgts, we were in hammocks on a mess-deck. Still a Sgt, I went out to India in a seven-tier bunk (I was on the top !). Coming home after 3½ years as an officer, we were partially better off with "Standee" berths (essentialy a two-tier tubular steel version of the standard barrack iron bed).

Our "Aorangi", I assume, would be part of the Shaw Saville fleet.

Danny.

Chugalug2
5th Dec 2015, 06:52
Our "Aorangi", I assume, would be part of the Shaw Saville fleet.

Google suggests the Union Steamship Company, Danny:-


http://www.ssmaritime.com/Aorangi-Logo.jpg

Geriaviator
5th Dec 2015, 13:48
http://s4.postimg.org/78xwcew8t/MV_Akaroa_ship.jpg

Nautical types:
Jack Stafford's ship was the ss Akaroa, named after the town in New Zealand. She was built by Harland and Wolff in Belfast in 1914, weighed 15,000t, and was powered by triple expansion steam engines. She seems to have spent the war on the long NZ run, and was scrapped in 1954.

Walter:
You must be the only man to find the Tiger Moth “comfortable”! I remember flying mine one Boxing Day when it was -1C. It certainly blew away the cobwebs but next day the tip of my nose turned blue-white and felt as if it had been burned. The doctor joked it was probably frostbite, then his expression changed and he said yes, it really was frostbite. The skin peeled off and it was sore for a fortnight. Next time I wore a mask but I've often thought of the WW2 instructors enduring endless dual Xcountries in that draughty front cockpit. Please keep your stories coming, we look forward to your first encounter with the Beaufighter.

The Miles aircraft were incredible performers but I now realise why the Tiggy outnumbered the more advanced Maggie by about 8:1. The wooden structure of Miles aircraft was incredibly strong and light, comprising enclosed boxes which were impossible to inspect internally, together with laminated components, all held together with glue. A badly damaged Maggie wing might need to go back into the manufacturer's jig for re-assembly, leaving the machine jacked as the wing carried the u/c leg. Three of us could change a Tiggy lower wing in a morning: trestle under the opposing wing as the u/c was mounted to the fuselage, slacken and detach the control cables and wires, remove two wing root pins and two strut pins and lift it off. It was so easy to access the entire airframe and there were repair schemes for everything short of writeoff as over the years the poor TM was pranged in every possible way.

Sadly the casein glue used by Miles proved to be the nemesis of its excellent products. By the early 1960s there was a sheaf of Air Registration Board notices referring to the inspection of wooden structures. I enjoyed a few flights in the very likeable Messenger four-seater, said to have been designed as a STOL transport for General Montgomery. Then her C of A expired and we found many glue failures in the wing structures that had been keeping me aloft for the previous few hours :eek: When we cut into the ply skin we found mushrooms growing along the spar joints, and that lovely Messenger went for (very short-lived) fire practice.

The Stafford Memoirs:
I thought every pPruner would appreciate Jack's story, and just wait until you read his account of the day he realised that advanced training was no game. There are many of his beautifully written tales still to come. It's an honour to bring together these superb stories on this, the finest of threads.

Danny42C
5th Dec 2015, 19:03
And so say All of Us !

Danny. :ok:

Danny42C
5th Dec 2015, 19:27
MPN11,

Revisiting your #7792,
days of yore, when men were men
........which recalls "wooden aircraft and iron men !"

Danny.

Walter603
6th Dec 2015, 00:38
I guess "comfortable" wasn't a good word to use in the Tiger Moth context. I meant it in the sense of ease of flying, not how your bum felt on the seat, nor the draughty bits on a cold day. Yes, I will get around to the Beaufighter story. I've been urged not to rush it; some readers apparently want it stretched out.
I like your description of what happens to untended timber wings. Glad I didn't know it when I was flying at Stokes' Meir airfield.

Danny42C
6th Dec 2015, 03:04
Walter,

Please take your time ! (when the Good Lord made time, He made plenty of it). The Beaufighter will come along in its proper place in the story, in due course.

I'm sure neither Geriaviator nor anyone else wants you to "rush your fences."

As for foreign objects in wings, I recall a Fox Moth, which had been laid up for the war years, was found to be harbouring a colony of rats in a wing - but mushroom farming is a new one on me !:*

Danny.

Walter603
6th Dec 2015, 04:47
There came a few more days leave, then it was off again to "Service Flying Training" on 30th August. I went to 6 S.F.T.S. at Little Rissington, Gloucestershire, famous as the home of the Royal Air Force Central Flying School. Our training continued on Airspeed Oxfords, that were twin-engined, single wing aircraft with quite large fuselages, capable of carrying several passengers (except there were no passenger seats fitted). My instructor at this school was Flying Officer Foxall (called "Foxy", of course).

We did most of our training from another satellite airfield at Windrush. The training consisted of many cross-country flights, elementary bombing runs over a special monitoring device in a corner of the airfield, and other exercises to improve our general airmanship. Classroom work consisted of engineering, principles of flight, airmanship, navigation, etc. On this course I clocked up about another 100 flying hours, and finished by being awarded the "Badge of Honour" for being the most proficient pupil on the course of about 40 students.

A day worth mentioning at Windrush quite early on this Course was when we were all sprawling about the flight hut, studying, reading, smoking mostly on the floor because there were only half a dozen chairs provided, when a fresh-faced young Pilot Officer (admin type!) cae bounding in. Speaking about some event strange to most of us, he tore strips off us, and said that as “the culprits” had not owned up, we were all to be punished with 100 lines each.

There was an astonished silence for one or two seconds. Then a concerted bellow from all pupils. The noise nearly lifted the hut’s roof. Short ending to the incident. A Flight Lieutenant appeared half an hour later and quietly cancelled the punishment.

If anyone wants to be enlightened on how to relieve oneself in an Airspeed Oxford on a long cross-country solo, when the unreachable urine bag is hanging on the other side of the cockpit, send me a money order and I’ll give you a few laughs. No pictures, unfortunately.

The December weeks before Christmas were our time of great excitement. We had the "Wings" written exams to be taken and passed, as well as the flying tests, before we could put up those coveted golden wings (brevets) on our left breasts. Eventually, the great day came - 23rd December 1941.

The results were posted up on the notice board. Our best tunics had been lovingly prepared weeks before. Some lucky ones were selected for commissioned rank. The majority of us were promoted to the rank of Sergeant-Pilot. In spite of the very cold day no one found it necessary to put on a greatcoat. We strode around waiting for the final parade, with Wings blazing from our chests, and sergeants' stripes gleaming on our arms. What a Day!

Danny42C
6th Dec 2015, 08:02
Walter,
..... at Little Rissington, Gloucestershire, famous as the home of the Royal Air Force Central Flying School.....
Colloquially known as "Hell-on-the-hill", I'm told.
....Our training continued on Airspeed Oxfords, that were twin-engined, single wing aircraft with quite large fuselages.....
A pre-war design, it was still being used at Dalcross as late as 1954 (next step the Meteor !) The idea was that you could train a whole crew at once. Tee Emm tells a good tale of a crewman who was in dire straits with your problem. He opened the door for the purpose - and fell out ! Luckily he was wearing his parachute..
....a special monitoring device in a corner of the airfield...
Could this be the "camera obscura" we puzzled over long ago on this Thread ?
...before we could put up those coveted golden wings (brevets) on our left breasts...
'Fraid memory is playing you tricks, Walter. Wings were always "drab silk" (until 1950, and that short-lived horror of a New Pattern No.1 jacket. And Mess kits, of course).
...What a Day!...
You beat me to it by three months (mine was on 3rd March 1942).

Could you have a more perfect illustration of how this Thread is supposed to work?

Danny.

Chugalug2
6th Dec 2015, 09:48
Danny:-
....a special monitoring device in a corner of the airfield... Could this be the "camera obscura" we puzzled over long ago on this Thread ?Indeed, Danny, my thoughts as well. That installation was of course set in the roof of the SHQ at pre-war Bicester. With it the assessment of practice bomb aiming on the marked a/f aiming point was possible with the release of the "bomb" (usually a Tate & Lyle syrup tin!), enabled by observing it on the projected obscura image, the release point showing up by means of the chemical contents of said tin. That was then compared to the DS solution, given the w/v stated, and the result awaited the crew back at the OTU. Perhaps technology had moved on at Windrush by then, Walter?

The now derelict structures that survive at many of these training locations have more meaning when they are identified for what they were, be it turret trainers, dome trainers, link trainer buildings, etc. They all played their part in this global effort to train aircrew for World War II.

Geriaviator
6th Dec 2015, 16:36
http://s20.postimg.org/qgg4xs3vx/Airspeed_AS_10_Oxford_V3388_G_AHTW_STAV_02_10_71.jpg

Great stuff, Walter! Did you go straight onto Oxford from the Magister, or had you some instruction on Harvard before tackling the twin? Can you remember if the Oxford had a propeller pitch knob even though it had fixed pitch props (just to get pilots used to the drills)?

Here's a photo, courtesy RuthAS, of a preserved OxBox in wartime training livery. This machine can now be seen suspended from the roof at IWM Duxford. I have read that the Oxford had its quirks, and that someone said the Wellington was an excellent trainer for the transition to Oxford :ooh:

Danny42C
6th Dec 2015, 19:13
Help !

We've got elephantiasis of the screen again - can any of you IT wizards fix ?

Danny.

Danny42C
6th Dec 2015, 20:09
Geriaviator,

Lovely pic of a sturdy old aircraft ! Two items puzzle me: what is the thing on the wingtip aft of the nav light ? And it looks as if the exhaust stub has a shroud round it (obviously a heater of some sort), but the outlet looks as if it is going into the wing root - presumably ducted from there into the cabin ?

As for the Wellington - Oxford transition, we said the same for the Spitfire > Harvard !. I am not sold on the dummy control idea (I never met it). Sufficient to the day is the evil thereof ! :ok:

Danny.

Geriaviator
6th Dec 2015, 22:19
When I blow up the original it seems to be a wingtip handhold or picket point, Danny. Maybe it was to help swing pupils into their park slot? As to the 'cabin heater' shroud over the exhaust, your 'iron men' would not need such luxuries but the carburettor certainly would. My money's on the carb heat for that mighty 375hp Armstrong Siddeley Cheetah radial. I always thought the cowlings looked too big for the rest of the Oxford even though it's 65 yrs since I last saw one flying (Binbrook, 1951)

Danny42C
7th Dec 2015, 00:20
Geriaviator,

There is a matter which Jack Stafford raises, which touched a chord with me, and I would think, with many others old enough to remember the War (the underlining is mine, but it is the crux of it):

...But I could hardly believe the gulf that had opened between me and most of the people with whom I had been so close only 12 months earlier.
My single-minded devotion to the Air Force was beyond them; they could not understand my experiences in the air. At first I was keen to discuss my flying in great detail, but I could not get through to them. Our lives had taken very different paths, and nothing was the same. I found it very hard to accept that their interests were still centred on the weather, the stock,
the fragile old fence on the back boundary, who would be at the dance on Saturday night, and so on.
Christ! Didn't they realise what an exciting world it was? If I spoke about life in the Air Force people would listen politely but before long their disinterest became obvious and they would remember that the ewes had to be shifted in the top paddock or business had to be done in town...

This is very true, and it held good even after the war, and I believe it is at the bottom of the very common: "Why Dad/Grandad didn't ever want to talk about his time in the war". It was almost as if we had been living on separate planets in those years.

Danny.

John Eacott
7th Dec 2015, 02:50
Danny,

The Oxford wingtip is not so much an object as a hole: as mentioned already, for ground handling.

Dad, I'm sure, was referring to his metaphorical 'wings of gold', since I carried a set of his RAF wings in my wallet for many a year. To supplement my (real) wings of gold, worn on my left sleeve :cool:

Danny42C
7th Dec 2015, 03:45
John (Jnr).

Of course ! You were in the True Blue !

Problem solved !

Danny.:ok:

Walter603
7th Dec 2015, 04:03
Camera obscura is correct for the training item I remember on the airfield corner.
I went straight from the Magister to the Oxford. Never saw a Harvard in my training.
You're quite right about the brevet Danny. It was drab and I even have one still, that I cut from my old RAF jacket. However I always fancied my wings were golden - it added to the magic. Nevertheless, when I joined the RAAF I was given permission to wear Aussie wings. I have 4 sets, and three of them are golden! One for daytime, one summer mess kit, one winter mess kit. No.4 is a metal brooch, silver coloured, for pinning to Khaki shirt or jacket in tropical area.

Chugalug2
7th Dec 2015, 08:01
Splendid pic. Geriaviator. The Oxford is in some distinguished company, a Sycamore alongside, and is that a York behind that? Certainly overlooking the brood with an air of maternal care is the unmistakeable nose of a Hastings. Do you know the venue and the occasion?

Walter, thank you for the confirmation of the camera obscura. Did you ever use that facility? If so can you remember any details of what was entailed in doing so, especially from the point of view of the airborne elements of the system?

Geriaviator
7th Dec 2015, 10:22
Danny,
Perceptive as always, I think you have solved a long-standing mystery for me. My generation is fortunate we have not had to go to war (at least, those of us not in the Services) and I have wondered sometimes why some veterans should talk (and write) about their experiences while others stay silent. Maybe some becomes institutionalised, so to speak, and can shrug off the experience like a bad dream; others find it much more difficult. I'm so grateful that I never had to find the answers for myself.


Chugalug,
I thought you would recognise that noble nose! The picture was taken at the Staverton air museum in 1971, but you can still see Oxford V3388 suspended from the roof of the Imperial War Museum at Duxford AirSpace | Imperial War Museums (http://www.iwm.org.uk/exhibitions/iwm-duxford/airspace)

ancientaviator62
7th Dec 2015, 10:33
Geriaviator,
as the picture was taken at Staverton then the 'noble nose' must be that of TG 528 which also now resides at the IWM Duxford.

Geriaviator
7th Dec 2015, 11:52
It will be dogfight, dogfight and dogfight – that's all that matters
Post no. 8 from the memoirs of Tempest pilot Flt Lt Jack Stafford, DFC, RNZAF

We reached England in January 1943, and were taken to Peterborough for advanced training on the Miles Master under our browned-off instructors. It was tedious, slow and boring, but after a riotous week's leave we were on the train from London to 55 Operational Training Unit at Annan near Carlisle – and ahead waited the mighty Hawker Hurricane, dated now but proven in battle. Rugged and reliable, it had been the frontline aircraft in the Battle of France and the Battle of Britain. How many Luftwaffe aircraft fell in combat to this aircraft? In the Battle of Britain, many more than fell to the much-vaunted Spitfire.

The air north of London was clear, and the visibility improved by at least 50 miles. I felt elated, excited and impatient to arrive. At last I would feel like a fighter pilot. I would be in a single-seater. Wow, maybe an aircraft I would fly had been in battle, maybe a famous ace had roared around in it, perhaps even Douglas Bader?

The train stopped and an RAF truck was waiting to take us to our OTU at Annan on the shores of the Solway Firth. We had a meal in the Mess, and liked it. We lived in nissen huts a mile or so from the airfield and rode there on pushbikes. In a matter of days we would have our first solo in a single-seater!

Our flight commander was a Welshman called Gus Davies, and we were assembled in the dispersal to meet him. He was tall, athletic and dark, with a small 'Clark Gable' moustache, and on his right breast was the small silver Maltese Cross given to those who defended the beleaguered island. Calm and confident, he looked around smiling at us all. How I admired him and longed for the experiences that he had survived.

“I'm Gus Davies, just call me Gus. In my hand I'm holding the manual of instruction you are supposed to receive from us here in A Flight. It's a book of bull**** dreamed up by those who have never fired a gun in anger.” He paused. “I'm going to teach you how to live high in the dangerous skies where you will meet the Hun. You won't learn that by spending hours practising precautionary landings. As soon as you can fly this aircraft with confidence it will be dogfight, dogfight and dogfight – that's all that matters”.

Days passed; my first solo was well behind me and I was starting to dogfight with the other pilots on my course. Gus flew with us, always watching. His great friend and fellow instructor, a Rhodesian called Scottie, was also always in the air, never missing a trick. Quiet words of encouragement and gentle helpful hints were all we received at this stage. I was totally sure they wanted me to pass and make it to a squadron, and my confidence soared.

mikehallam
7th Dec 2015, 12:04
Danny,

Re cockpit drills, and dummy prop controls etc.

I've been flying since starting at Bankstown, Sydney in 1969 & completed a UK PPL at Shoreham Sussex.
We a PAYG civvies were taught to remember the nmenomics TTMFFFGGHH , FREDA and BUMPFFH.

I have them still on my kneepad & have never stopped using them, as deviation from any one might, for my feeble thought processes, lead to neglecting another.

But in fact I've never piloted other than fixed u/c let alone a mighty twin. So in my Rans S6 with 80 roaring h.p., which boasts no hand brake to release or folding u/c to check "Down & Locked", I still release an imaginary lever, bang the floor and point to the gauges to prevent preflight & landing checks merely becoming a thoughtless chant.

It amuses my inner self to continue doing all of them, as at my age (78) I'll never get a bigger a/c, but like to do it if only for old times sake.

mike hallam

Warmtoast
7th Dec 2015, 14:49
Danny re your post #7808 & Geriaviator


"Help !
We've got elephantiasis of the screen again - can any of you IT wizards fix ?
Danny" It's Geriaviator's photo of the Oxford that's the problem, at 1200 x 462 pixels its above pPRuNe's recommended attachment sizes.
PPRuNe's recommended sizes are given here:

http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/410931-new-sizes-your-pics.html

We had the same problem in this thread earlier (Page 263, Post#5252) and as said at the time to cure this problem.
Right-click a photo and then click on properties shows the size of the photo. As stated in the link above the recommended max size is 850 x 850 pixels, recent photos posted in this thread are way over the recommended size. e.g. there is one sized 1536 x 2048 pixels and others at 1200 x 797 pixels. This causes the page to expand to accommodate the photo resulting in text running way over to the right of the page.

John Purdey
7th Dec 2015, 16:26
Geriaviator. Thread drift I know, but I do not recall ever hearing of a silver cross badge on uniforms for defenders of Malta. Can you enlighten us?

Ian Burgess-Barber
7th Dec 2015, 16:47
mikehallam - (your 7819)

I'm with you, regardless of whether the gear is fixed or folding, I do my BUMPFFH checks out loud, looking at, or touching, the appropriate item and, if in a high wing aircraft, at the "U" check I look out of the side window and say "I have a wheel" and expect the person in the right hand seat to give me the same response (providing that it is there,of course)! I don't think that this is silly at all, wheels have been known to fall off fixed gear aircraft on more than one occasion.

Happy Landings

Ian BB

Geriaviator
7th Dec 2015, 17:23
warmtoast
Thanks, pic downsized. Geriaviator performs suitable grovel :O

John
Sorry, I too never heard of the cross decoration. I am typing from a very old dot-matrix printout and sadly we can't ask Jack Stafford the author. As Danny has so often said, we must collect these memories while we can!

Mikehallam
Long may your prop keep turning, sir! I think it's very wise to keep to your drills as some of us find it difficult to remember small but important points. Now how do I turn off this computer?

Union Jack
7th Dec 2015, 18:13
Our flight commander was a Welshman called Gus Davies, and we were assembled in the dispersal to meet him. He was tall, athletic and dark, with a small 'Clark Gable' moustache, and on his right breast was the small silver Maltese Cross given to those who defended the beleaguered island.

Try this for size, Gentlemen, given that there is no direct clue to the background of the award to this very distinguished officer, unless someone (named Eacott?) Down Under can unscramble the reference to "silver Cross of Malta (REL/12888.003)."
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/REL/12888.001/?image=1#awm-collection-carousel

Please also note the apparent colour of the brevet!

Jack

MPN11
7th Dec 2015, 19:22
DFM in May, DFC in June ... those Malta guys really worked bloody hard. My first Deputy SATCO was one of them, albeit with no medals, who flew off a carrier to deliver his Spitfire and then start shooting!

Colour of brevet may, of course, be influenced by Antipodean photography, but it doesn't look 'gold' to me.

Danny42C
8th Dec 2015, 00:01
Geriaviator (speakihg in the voice of Jack Stafford [RIP]):

...it will be dogfight, dogfight and dogfight – that's all that matters”...
We did a lot of tail-chasing (pity we didn't use gun cameras). The one great lesson I learned was: stay alive - (the kills will come to you if you can do this). It was the main lesson I carried away from my OTU, taught to us all by an imaginative CFI. To save you the trouble of looking it up, here is my story:
...Our C.F.I. was a Wing Commander Farmer. We didn't see much of him, but he had one idea which would stand all of us in very good stead. Whenever he was out of his office (which seemed to be most of the time) he'd jump into "his" Spitfire. This had a very distinctive white spinner with a spiral painted on it. In this he'd roam around looking for lone Spitfires. Any that he found in the area would almost certainly be his. Finding one, he'd try to "bounce" it - carry out a mock attack. Catching one napping, he'd haul alongside and note the aircraft letters. There would follow an uncomfortable five minutes in front of your Flight Commander, and a "fine" of a day's pay. If, however, you'd "kept weaving", never flying straight and level for more than a few seconds at a time, watching your rear-view mirror and screwing your neck round * to spot any stranger behind, you'd see the CFI coming. Waiting till he came into firing range (about 400 yards), you'd turn tightly into him - the standard defensive parry. He'd waggle his wings to say "Cheers" and fly off to find another victim.

EDIT: Note * above, Post 7793 on page 390 refers.

It drove home the most valuable lesson a fighter pilot must learn - Watch your back! - you'll never see the aircraft that shoots you down! It recalls an old saying (from the WWI trenches) "You never hear the shell that kills you!" There is a romantic myth that air fighting was a knightly combat, and of course there was some like that, especially in the large scale dogfights of 1940. But a much more effective way is to creep up on your man with a piece of lead pipe...
...and on his right breast was the small silver Maltese Cross given to those who defended the beleaguered island...
Never heard of this (but only visited the island in peacetime), but it was a nice idea. But, AFAIK, you couldn't have any extras on a uniform. Even my (honestly earned) USAF wings were verboten. (But then, those Wild Colonial Boys always were a law unto themselves !)
...on the Miles Master under our browned-off instructors. It was tedious, slow and boring...
I've never found any aircraft "boring" (a Tiger Moth can kill you as easily as a Typhoon !) The Master was comfortable, docile and roomy - ideal for an away weekend. Of course, the Harvard was a far better lead-in to a Spitfire (or was it vice-versa ?)
...In the Battle of Britain, many more than fell to the much-vaunted Spitfire...
The Spitfire's task. as I understand, was to give the German fighter escort something to play with, to distract them from seeing-off the Hurricanes which were shooting down their bombers. Any of the escort who got shot down in the process was a bonus.
... Although the Spitfire was more glamorous,[3] the Hurricanes were more numerous and were responsible for most of the German losses, especially in the early part of the battle. The turn-around time (re-arm and refuel) for the Spitfire was 26 minutes, while the Hurricane's was 9 minutes, which increased its effectiveness...[Wiki]...
This surprises me. The eight wing guns were under similar panels, the tankage (85 galls) filled from the top of the fuselage in both cases (?). How so ?
...maybe an aircraft I would fly had been in battle...
Very probably. Our Spitfire Is at Hawarden were survivors of the great days two summers before.


mike hallam,

BUMPFFH is the all-time favourite - the one we all learned in the war.
(Never is a long time).


Warmtoast,
Danny re your post #7808 & Geriaviator
Ta !


Ian BB,
...wheels have been known to fall off fixed gear aircraft on more than one occasion...
They fall off retractibles too (sad story on p.175 #3486 this Thread).


Geriaviator
...I think it's very wise to keep to your drills as some of us find it difficult to remember small but important points. Now how do I turn off this computer?...
So I'm not the only one ! (comes to us all in time).

MPN11,
....who flew off a carrier to deliver his Spitfire...
IIRC, because a Spitfire's flaps (pneumatic) are all-up or all-down, they trapped a suitably sized block of wood between them to give about 20°for take-off from the carrier. When comfortably airborne, you would put flaps down, block falls out, flaps up and away you go.


Jack and John Purdey,
...the small silver Maltese Cross given to those who defended the beleaguered island...
As reply to Geriaviator above. And just imagine having to polish that lot ! And yes, the brevet is OK for colour, but the centre, I suppose, reads "RAAF".

Cheers to you all, Danny.

TommyOv
8th Dec 2015, 12:19
Chaps,


I've been away from pprune for a little while, so imagine my delight when on my return I found this excellent thread still going strong. I just thought I'd make a quick post to say that it's great to see new people (welcome Walter603) coming out of the woodwork to keep it alive. Keep up the good work!


And now... I have some catching up to do.


Regards all,


TommyOv

Geriaviator
8th Dec 2015, 15:30
Those pPruners still sending their requests to Santa should consider Combat Crew by John Comer, a B-17 flight engineer/top turret gunner who kept a journal of the 25 missions he flew in 1943 from Ridgewell, at a time when the casualty rate from his base was 80%. His writing matches anything I have read on the bomber offensive and shines far above most accounts of USAF operations. It's available from Amazon as paperback or Kindle, and I could not put it down. Comer describes not only the experience of flying on operations but also what went through the minds of his comrades as they watched their friends plunging to their doom. An aviation classic.

Walter603
9th Dec 2015, 03:57
I did use the system Chugalug2. I made half a dozen runs during my training at that time, but only the most vague idea of what it was for. It was a kind of bomb-aiming exercise by the pilot. Theoretical results of how far the bomb fell from the target were given to each student.

It's 9 December as I type, by the way; 75 years since I reported for duty at RAF Cardington as an AC2.
My son never ceases to surprise me with his own pleasant memories:
["I carried a set of his RAF wings in my wallet for many a year"]
Thanks son, you're a champ!
OG

Walter603
9th Dec 2015, 05:04
Off by train to London for Christmas leave. Same overwhelming thoughts, same dazzling effects of our startling transformation evident to all who understood these things. Two pretty girls sat in our compartment, with four new “saviours of civilisation” to make eyes at them. One of the girls (the prettiest one of course) had a puppy that she kindly asked me to nurse for a few minutes. My day was made - until she said quite innocently, "What do you do, in the Air Force?" Oh, callow youth! How to be deflated, in one single instant! Why couldn't she see what an important young Sergeant-Pilot I had become?

We arrived at Kings Cross Station, London, in the late afternoon, and it was already getting dark, being mid-winter in England. There was a smell of fog in the air. My mates left me for their own homes. I went to find a telephone, and rang my father, "Major Walter Eacott, DCM, Middlesex Home Guard". After about half an hour's wait, he arrived in an army car driven by a soldier, and collected me complete with my white kit bag, for the pleasing drive home to Chingford.

What an exciting Christmas followed. Mother and sister were both as pleased as Punch to see me. In spite of the black-out, the eternal shortages of food and the other limitations of wartime, we had lots of celebrations, a Christmas party or two, a wonderful Christmas dinner (by Mum of course) and plenty of visits to see friends and family members around Chingford.

The leave was all too short. Before January 1942 was more than a week old, I was off to my new training school, called "Operational Training Unit", otherwise known as 54 OTU, at RAF Station Church Fenton, in Yorkshire. There I was to fly Blenheim twin-engined fighter-bombers, in preparation for my role as a night fighter pilot, and it was another very memorable experience.

Yorkshire is a bleak, cold County in winter. Church Fenton didn't depart from the normal. Snow lay around for the rest of the month, and well into February. We managed to continue our training, sometimes having to take part ourselves in the job of shovelling and sweeping snow off the runways so that the aircraft could take off and land. The aeroplanes were old, and almost obsolete. They were the nearest approach the Air Force could give us to the deadly Beaufighters, on which we would fly solo before we left Church Fenton, but which were far too scarce and expensive to waste on training us!

We flew a great deal at night, naturally, as this would be our active task when sent to Squadrons. Lots of day flying was also carried out, and I can still remember the difficulty of finding our way around northern England with the ground below carpeted for so many weeks in snow.

Danny42C
9th Dec 2015, 06:55
Walter (your #7830),

...The leave was all too short. Before January 1942 was more than a week old, I was off to my new training school, called "Operational Training Unit", otherwise known as 54 OTU, at RAF Station Church Fenton, in Yorkshire...

...Yorkshire is a bleak, cold County in winter. Church Fenton didn't depart from the normal. Snow lay around for the rest of the month, and well into February...

I got to 57 OTU on 1st July 1942 Three lovely, warm summer months in Hawarden (Flintshire), having overwintered in Alabama and come home in March. :ok:

You timed it wrong, mate !

Danny.

Geriaviator
9th Dec 2015, 16:58
Fascinating story, Walter, were the Blenheims dual control? They must have been ideal trainers for their big sisters. Was your night training just that, or did you have tinted goggles (two stage amber)? And looking back to Magister, did you have instrument traing under the hood as they did on Tigers? Please keep your memories coming, we are all enjoying them, even more the chat between you and Danny! Best wishes and many thanks

Walter603
10th Dec 2015, 04:01
Yes, the Blenheims were dual-controlled. We had Mark I's and IV's, short nosed and long nosed. Cockpits were most uncomfortable, broken ends and sharp bits of metal seemed to be sticking out everywhere. We didn't use goggles for night training. Magisters under the hood for instrument training - yes that was routine.
One interesting item I don't think I've mentioned elsewhere; most veterans will know about the carrots and good eyesight furphy that was made public was that ``Wg Cdr John Cunningham ("Cats-eyes") owed his success to carrots. The story was put out to keep radar secret, and we did get more than we wanted in our meals. In fact carrots contained a soporific discovered long after a number of young pilots lost their lives by falling asleep at the controls. I think 5 died on our course; one was another mate, Harry Beck who went out on a solo night flight and came back in a bag.

Walter603
10th Dec 2015, 04:29
You're right there Danny, even though the weather was a constant source of distraction.
1. No flying, just snow-clearing with a bunch of paid but unwilling Irishmen. So 3 of us after breakfast made our mucky way to the rear of the airfield at Church Fenton, broke out of camp over the barbed wire, found the Tadcaster Road and boarded a single-decker bus. 5 minutes later we slid gracefully off the road into a ditch.
2. Somehow we got to a railway station and eventually arrived at Tadcaster, in time for a late lunch and beers in a local pub. Then off to the pictures.
3. Arrived back at Church Fenton and took the direct route through the main gate. No comments nor challenges from anyone. On making enquiries in the Sergeants' Mess, we were told that shortly after breakfast departure a Tannoy broadcast released all Course members for the day, with transport provided for those wanting to go to town!

Another big mistake, Danny. :ugh:

Chugalug2
10th Dec 2015, 09:08
Walter, the losses on Blenheims at Church Fenton were reflected across the country at other OTUs, Bicester included. Could the common carrot have been a convenient scape-goat for the handling limitations of this aircraft? It had been at the very edge of aeronautical technology in its time, but that time was too soon for WWII of course, as was quickly apparent in front line use.

Whether its use thereafter for training purposes was for the best is debatable, but there was a war on and it was by then the only real use to put it to, and anyway it could be argued that if you could learn to handle a demanding training aircraft the easier you would find the operational one. In the meantime you were probably put off carrots for life!

Thank for the thoughts on the camera obscura. I guess that the signal, in whatever form, to the ground team was for the training staff. They simply had to wait for the trainee to initiate the moment of simulated bomb release to do so.

Geriaviator
10th Dec 2015, 10:01
I think 5 died on our course; one was another mate, Harry Beck who went out on a solo night flight and came back in a bag. This quote jumps out of the page. How many were on your course, Walter? As far as I can see, the RAF lost some 8,300 aircrew in training accidents, not only solo pilots but also entire crews including navigators, engineers, gunners etc. My father recalled that some of the OTU Wellingtons should not have been flying at all, their weary engines were a challenge to experienced pilots and the student had little chance when one failed. The Blenheim's handling quirks were recalled many years later when the one and only restored specimen crashed on its first flight, but looking back after all these years, Walter, would you consider the Beaufighter was more difficult?

Danny42C
10th Dec 2015, 22:36
I said (#7826):

.... the tankage (85 galls) filled from the top of the fuselage in both cases....

Not so, the Hurricane had two wing tank fillers, so refuelling would take a bit longer per aircraft.

D. :uhoh:

Danny42C
11th Dec 2015, 01:39
Walter,
Another snippet from your #7830:
...Why couldn't she see what an important young Sergeant-Pilot I had become?...

But a little old lady in Liverpool was more clued-up !:


...And we were the "blue-eyed boys". A little of it rubbed off on me one morning. I was trotting along in Liverpool with my new wings and sergeant's stripes. I can remember exactly where I was - by the side of Lewis's, opposite the Adelphi. A dear little old lady buttonholed me: "GOD BLESS YOU, MY BOY", she quavered (surprisingly loudly). Passers-by murmured approval. Liverpudlians wouldn't see all that many aircrew at that stage of the war, so I suppose I stuck out a bit. Naturally shy, I was dumb with embarrassment, but managed to stammer a few words of thanks. I hadn't even flown my first "op", but Liverpool had taken two year's battering from the Luftwaffe, so I suppose I looked like a possible St.George for their dragon. I'll never forget that day.
I was posted to Bournemouth, another Transit Camp, in a seaside hotel - had been a rather swish one, I think, but can't recall the name. Here the natives were well used to seeing aircrew and old ladies did not greet you with little glad cries - nor young ones either, come to that, (the Yanks were in town)...


Ah, well. Danny. :*

KJ994
11th Dec 2015, 07:29
An aside from a longtime lurker on this wonderful thread:


The Blenheim's shortcomings became all too clear in the Battle of France, yet it soldiered on in front line service because nothing better was immediately available. For a rivetting and moving account of Blenheim anti-shipping operations in the Mediterranean in 1941, look for a copy of The Shiphunters, by R E Gillman (John Murray 1976, ISBN 0 7195 3299 X). The losses were horrendous, and the bravery of the crews hard to imagine in today's age.

Geriaviator
11th Dec 2015, 13:51
http://s20.postimg.org/zbr6jk6ct/Hurricane_and_map_980.jpg

Jack Stafford would still recognise the runways of Annan from which he flew a Hurricane like this, even though most of the airfield is now covered by Chapelcross nuclear power station. When the newly-minted Kiwi pilot arrived at 55 OTU in 1943 the Solway Firth had become a very busy place. This sketch depicts airfields at Castle Kennedy near Stranraer, West Freugh, Dumfries (now a very interesting aviation museum), Annan (marked in red), Longtown, Great Orton, Crosby (now Carlisle Airport), Silloth, Anthorn and Kirkbride.

Well away from the busy airspace of southern England, the Solway skies were filled with Hurricanes, Typhoons, Oxfords, Ansons, Wellingtons, Stirlings and Halifaxes, mostly battle-weary veterans which had been passed down to the Ops and Heavy Conversion Units. Amphibious operations were practised along the Scottish coast to the north, while the Solway Firth and the Isle of Man some 40 miles away made a realistic substitute for the cross-Channel operations that would herald D-Day.

Many of the thousands of pupils who took off from those training airfields never landed back. The mist-shrouded hills of Galloway took their toll, their sad stories well told in the Dumfries museum. To the south, twisted fragments of aircraft can still be found in the Lake District, as they can in Snowdonia. As Walter recalls in his #7833, training accidents claimed thousands of airmen, and Jack Stafford said in post #7728 that he had lost a fellow trainee during a Harvard dogfight through the New Zealand mountains. It's clear from the following post that first experience of 'real' combat flying was a shattering experience:


I'm killing you Staff, tat-tat-tat, you'll soon be dead

Post no. 9 from the memoirs of Tempest pilot Flt Lt Jack Stafford, DFC, RNZAF

ONE MORNING we assembled in dispersal and Gus called for silence. “Today I'm taking one flight out and towards the Isle of Man. Scottie will bring a flight in, penetrate the air defence, and attack the Isle.” I was all ears. I had a twinge of disappointment when I found I was to fly with Scottie; I liked him, but Gus was something else. Gus and his flight left, and we took off later, flying our Hurricanes in formation with Scottie. Our callsign was Mustang.

Scottie had briefed us to fly low and fast, right on the waves, attempting to evade the eagle eyes of Gus and his gang. Flying low with plenty of boost we set course for the Isle of Man, some 40 miles away. We were all on the same wavelength, but Scottie had ordered radio silence. We droned on and it began to look as if we had avoided interception when Scottie broke the silence: “Mustang aircraft, bandits six o'clock above, coming in, hold course”. I saw the tiny spots coming out of the sun, glinting occasionally and getting larger by the second. Their speed was incredible and I wondered why Scottie didn't react. Suddenly his voice came over the R/T: “Mustang aircraft, ready to break port 180 degrees … GO!”

On the word GO every Hurricane whipped around at full throttle and we went headfirst into the attackers. I could hardly believe the closing speed and in seconds we were past each other and aircraft were skidding, slipping and weaving all over the sky. I saw a Hurricane slightly above and ahead. I turned to get on his tail but he seemed to disappear, only to slide easily behind me. I pulled into a steep turn but with no effort he stayed close behind. I recognised his aircraft – it was Gus.

“I'm shooting you Staff”, he said. “You're a piece of cake, turn the bloody thing.” I pulled hard on the stick and felt I might stall as the airspeed fell.
With bored indifference his voice came over the radio. “I'm killing you Staff, tat-tat-tat, you'll soon be dead”. I hauled hard on the stick, the engine screaming, I felt crushed down in the cockpit, I could hardly breathe. Round and round we went, keeping a little top rudder in an attempt to maintain height. I broke into a sweat with the unbelievable effort, but Gus sat there with supreme ability. He had me cold. “Turn the f---ing thing Staff, you're almost dead. Tat-tat-tat. I'm shooting you, Staff”.

Almost blind with effort, aching and soaked with sweat, I pulled even harder. Ribbons of vapour streamed from the wingtips and the Hurricane juddered on the edge of a stall. The tone of the voice changed. “Good boy Staff, I can't kill you now, keep it up, try a little harder, don't ease off, don't ease off, harder, harder!” I was almost at my physical limit; I had never turned like this before. This was nothing like the good fun of play dogfights around Blenheim in the Harvards. This is what it was really like, kill or be killed, victory or death, and hard, hard work. This was no game.

GlobalNav
11th Dec 2015, 17:30
To Danny and others....

Only recently learned of and became addicted to this thread. I sincerely salute all of you who earned RAF pilot brevets during WWII and to all other RAF men and women who served. I am very glad to be a "former colonial" who is free to speak English - even if our version is considered a "foreign language" to the Queen's subjects.

My father's ancestors immigrated to the USA from England during the late 19th century. My father served in the USAAC during WWII and, perhaps of interest to you, Danny, in the CBI. Sadly, he passed away 37 years ago and I didn't have the sense to ask him all the questions I might have.

He too landed by ship in Bombay, having come from California, to Australia and thence to the subcontinent. Quite an experience for a young midwestern farm boy. He was an aircraft mechanic, who assembled from crates of parts packed in cosmoline, many different types, including I believe P-38's and P-47's, but sorry I have no data to back that up. He would have arrived, I believe in 1943 after a year's technical training in the US, including a visit to the Curtis factory.

He served much of his time in the vicinity of Calcutta, told a few humorous stories of unintentionally offending the natives and of a harrowing dash through the streets fleeing from a Sikh armed with a terrible bladed weapon.

My father also told of assembling and caring for P-47's. The initial engine power ups, with tails tied down and sandbags on the tail. The many Indian workers/laborers whom he supervised. Of test pilots taking off with these hot airplanes for the their first time, all excited about that huge engine and the water-injection, which they learned by experience and possibly a fatality or two, that water injection should not be used during takeoff roll.

Dad eventually became a flight mechanic - aircrew - on C-47's and C-46's. Was introduced to a famous US pilot, Philip Cochran, during his action in/over Burma. At some point he had the privilege of visiting the Taj Mahal. He and his brother, who also happened to be nearby in the CBI, for fun built their own motorcycle from heaven knows what parts and pieces.

Dad came home in 1946 as a Technical Sgt in the USAAF, initially tried to get his A&P and start a civilian career in aviation - just like thousands of others - but a job in the field being hard to come by, he gave up on that. He tried dairy farming and then became a home-builder and had a wonderful business in the small Wisconsin town I grew up in. I admire my father beyond words and only wish I could live up to my image of him. I measure myself everyday, even at the age of 65, by my memories of him.

So, to Danny and all the others of my father's generation who put it all on the line, and as Danny said, served because if they didn't, no one would, "Thank you". Thank you also to the men who described their experiences so well during that chaotic time. After serving 22 years ('73-'95) in a much more modern Air Force, I can hardly imagine how you did what you did.

MPN11
11th Dec 2015, 19:00
Nicely said, GlobalNav ... I'm sure many others share your view on the wonderful 'living history' on this amazing thread.

smujsmith
11th Dec 2015, 20:00
Second that MPN11, and thanks for a great post for the ground crew Globalnav !

Smudge:ok:

Chugalug2
11th Dec 2015, 22:14
GlobalNav, welcome aboard, Sir! A couple of the terms used in your post had me checking with Wiki (though perhaps I should have consulted Cortana, who has at last taken residence on my PC!).

First off was Cosmoline, which turns out to be the brown coloured paste that coated everything metallic as a rust preventative, particularly firearms. There was a song about it, to the tune of Tangerine, but wiki doesn't share the words with us!

The second was CBI. That has an unlikely British connotation (Confederation of British Industry), could have been (given the context) the Central Bank of India, but is more likely to mean the China Burma India theatre of WWII. That is a new one on me, but might well ring a bell with others. Wiki says it was used by the US military and tended to refer to General Stillwell's Command.

Did your father fly the Hump in his C-47s and C-46s? Ernest K Gann's "Fate is the Hunter" describes his experiences on the route, an airlift that preceded the Berlin one, supporting the Chinese Nationalist Army.

Your post reminds us of the massive US logistical effort that supplied many of the Allied Forces, and without which victory would not have been possible. Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto rightly said after the attack without warning on Pearl Harbour:-

I fear all we have done today is to awaken a great, sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolveHow right he was!

GlobalNav
12th Dec 2015, 01:07
Thank you all for your welcoming messages.

In answer to Chugalug:

Yes, CBI stands for China-India-Burma Theater of operations, a US-only term, and one that for the most part was administrative rather than a "proper" theater like ETO. I'm no expert on that. I would say that much of the action in CBI revolved around China in one form or other, while the British focus was naturally India.

By the way, the latest issue of the Air Force Magazine has a historical article concerning generals Stilwell and Chennault, who were mostly at odds with each other. An interesting read. Gen Stilwell was a champion for ground operations in Burma.

My father said they shipped just about everything on those long sea voyages in cosmoline, aircraft parts, jeeps and heaven knows what. It was a true mess to deal with and I would speculate that gasoline or kerosene must have been the solvent of choice. Dad said that the aircraft manufacturers sent technical reps to help the maintenance men sort out the parts and assembly of the aircraft. All I can think is that those test pilots who flew them initially were very brave men. My father was very meticulous as a home builder and I have no doubt he used that trait while assembling these airplanes.

My father did mention the Hump, and if I remember correctly he may have supported some of those operations as ground crew, but never actually flew the Hump, himself. I say that because he characterized it as a harrowing mission with tragic losses not uncommon. If he had done it himself, I think that would have been made plain, and he never mentioned going to China, either. His own flying, it seems to me focused on the objective of Burma. He did visit Rangoon and had a few souvenirs of that. The details of when and how that happened I do not have.

Many years later, my own Air Force service included flying to Burma, India, Pakistan among many other countries. I treasured being able to visit some of the same sites as my father - Agra, Rangoon, New Delhi, Karachi.

Cheers to you all.

Danny42C
12th Dec 2015, 02:25
GlobalNav,

Been away from this Thread for a while, and so a bit slow in welcoming you into this, our Virtual Crewroom in Cyberspace, where naught but good fellowship prevails and a cross word is never (well, very rarely) heard, and all views expressed are treated as of equal worth. Now,
...My father served in the USAAC during WWII and, perhaps of interest to you, Danny, in the CBI...
I at first thought: Central Bureau of Investigation, and envisaged tales of "G-men", but it's only China, Burma and India Theatre of Operations. Ah, well.
...He served much of his time in the vicinity of Calcutta, told a few humorous stories of unintentionally offending the natives and of a harrowing dash through the streets fleeing from a Sikh armed with a terrible bladed weapon...
Sikhs in Calcutta specialised as taxi-drivers, all driving mid-thirties open tourers, Buicks, Chevs, Plymouths etc. in the last stages of dilapidation.
The meters were invariably "broken, Sahib", and the fare was a matter of negotiation (and a brazen attempt to renegotiate at the destination).

Presumably your Dad's negotiating technique had unintentially offended your chap; the Sikhs are a martial race; every true Sikh must carry a Kirpan, about ten inches long (this is a small one):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Kirpan_small.JPG/300px-Kirpan_small.JPG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kirpan_small.JPG)

An example of a kirpan, a type of religious dagger, worn at all times by Sikhs


We are going to have much, much more to talk about, but it's a bit late tonight (0317GMT),so I'll say "Goodnight" for the moment.

Danny.

Why am I stuck centred ? Don't know. Must be my damn' Gremlin again !

Walter603
12th Dec 2015, 02:53
Geriaviator
I had less trouble with the Beaufighter than I had with the Blenheim. I appreciate that Blenheims and their crews did a wonderful job in action, but my experience with the clapped out aircraft at OTU made them difficult and clumsy. Consider the difference when passing out on the Beau, standing precariously wherever my feet would fit behind the instructor whilst he did a quick take-off and a couple of circuits, talking meanwhile and pointing to various controls and instruments, then landing, disembarking and saying the usual "You've got her. Jump in and buckle up. Good luck". Incredible power for take-off, an hour to myself, and it was like my first solo all over. I had no difficulties, all was "a piece of cake".
From memory we had 40 or more pupils on the course, together with another, similar course overlapping. The accident rate was disturbing. Friendships were made and lost very quickly!

GlobalNav
12th Dec 2015, 03:04
Thank you, Danny, for your kind welcome and for your background information, too.

Sorry about using "CBI" without defining it. Foolish me, I didn't realize at first that it was not widely used by the allies outside US forces.

Regarding the Sikhs. Yes I have no doubt he was a taxi driver. Thank you for the photo of the kirpan. By the looks of it and imagining it in the hand of a fiercesome bearded turbaned Sikh, I guess I'd be running for my life too. I always thought of my Dad as very street smart, but maybe that wasn't fully developed yet at age 20 in a strange land. He was a football running back and track star in high school, abilities which might have been handy, considering his negotiating skill.

Some terminology from India made it into my early childhood. Dad often kidded around calling me "sahib" as he mockingly bowed with hands overhead. My favorite stuffed animal was named "Babu" and I now I think I know why.

Walter603
12th Dec 2015, 03:09
......And when the Yanks were in town, all other nationalities were outclassed! Fortunately we are talking about social functions and the attraction of Yankee rates of pay.

Chugalug2
12th Dec 2015, 13:13
Before we move onto the operational types I thought that it might be interesting to post the links to those Pilots Notes that are available on the Avialogs site. They can be perused on-site but pdf downloads require that you are a subscribed member.

Warmtoast (pp Tony Benn) PT-26 Cornell (parts only I'm afraid):-

T.O. 01-115GA-4 Airplane Parts Catalog PT-19, PT-19A, PT-19B, PT-23, PT-26 (http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/en/aircraft/usa/fairchild/pt-19/to-01-115ga-4-airplane-parts-catalog-pt-19-pt-19a-pt-19b-pt-23-pt-26.html)

Geriaviator (pp Jack Stafford) Tiger Moth (RAAF PNs):-

RAAF No 416 - Pilot's Notes for the Tiger Moth Aircraft (http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/en/aircraft/uk/dehavilland/dh-82tigermoth/raaf-no-416-pilots-notes-for-the-tiger-moth-aircraft.html)

AT-6 Harvard:-

http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/en/aircraft/usa/northamericanaviation/t-6andsnj.html

Hawker Hurricane:-

Hurricane (http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/en/aircraft/uk/hawker/hurricane.html)

Miles Master not found though

Walter 603 Airspeed Oxford:-

A.P. 1596A&B Pilot's Notes for Oxford I & II - 2nd Edition (http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/aircraft/uk/airspeed/oxford/a-p-1596a-b-pilot-s-notes-for-oxford-i-ii-2nd-edition.html)

Bristol Blenheim:-

AP 1530C Pilot's Notes Blenheim V Aeroplane (http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/aircraft/uk/bristol-aeroplane-company/blenheim/ap-1530c-pilots-notes-blenheim-v-aeroplane.html)

Nothing found for the Miles Magister.

pulse1
12th Dec 2015, 15:07
I was once told that good carpenters make good navigators, or was it the other way round. Well, I have just spent an amazing morning admiring the carpentry of my neighbour Frank and listening to his story as a Beaufighter navigator.

This is the Frank who I have been trying to get to tell his story for about 20 years. We showed him Walter603's posts and he finally agreed to tell all.

I arrived at his house to be overwhelmed with books and photographs and now have to put my notes in some kind of order, learn to post some pictures, and stretch my limited writing skills to do his story justice. This may take me some time.

In the meantime, Frank was keen to tell me about his old friend George Sproates who not only shared the same role, but was very much a fellow Geordie. However, George was a very clever mimic and soon shook off his pronounced Geordie accent. He was a brilliant actor and musician who everyone expected to take up a career on the stage. As you will see, Frank spent most of the war enjoying the hospitality of the Italians and Germans so lost touch with George. When he was repatriated he found that his old friend had shaken off the restrictions of the "class ridden" RAF (Frank's words) and signed on as an officer. Now Frank finds it incredibly funny that his old Geordie friend eventually became a Group Captain and his last position was Station Commander at Akrotiri. It is possible that some followers of this wonderful thread will have known him.

For me, it is another example of how war expanded the horizons of so many people.

Wander00
12th Dec 2015, 15:37
Too true it did. Had an OC Admin at Watton in the 60s called Peter Moon. Great guy and as I spent 6 months in SHQ whilst the medics pondered taking away my A1G1Z1 I learned much from him. When I rejoined I came across him again as DPM(Airmen) at Innsworth. Roll forward 15 years or so and I am secretary (Ch Exec) of a large and prestigious South Coast yacht club. I am told someone who would rather not give his name is in Reception to see me. Turns out to be PM, now Captain of a local golf club and had seen my name in the local paper, so we had lunch together, and repeated the exercise a few times. Sadly he became ill and died, and I attended his funeral. The eulogy described how he had joined up from very humble beginnings in the war at the earliest opportunity. He ended up working on Sunderlands at PD. one night he was guard on a moored aircraft in a gale. He started a couple of engines and saved the aircraft. At the end of the war he stayed in and eventually made group captain. He had no formal educational qualifications at all. What a guy.

Danny42C
12th Dec 2015, 16:00
Geriaviator (your #7826, from Jack Stafford, [RIP]),
...The turn-around time (re-arm and refuel) for the Spitfire was 26 minutes, while the Hurricane's was 9 minutes, which increased its effectiveness...[Wiki]
I don't see why. In the first place, in battle, not individuals, but a whole Squadron, or a whole Flight, would be scrambled at once. Barring losses, the whole lot would land at more or less the same time. Turn-around time is then a function of the number of bowsers and armourers you've available.

In any case if the wing armament is the same, and the same number of armourers, a Spitfire should take no longer to rearm than a Hurricane. And the Spitfire has only one filler cap (on top), whereas the Hurricane has two (or more ?) in the two wings, which would, I should have thought, put it at a slight disadvantage. How did Wiki get its figures ?

Danny.

Sandisondaughter
13th Dec 2015, 14:11
Danny - some answers to your questions of 30th November.

I asked Dad what he thought of Vultee Valiants - he said 'not a lot'! They 'needed very careful handling but were alright after enough practice'.

In his view the Manchester was 'alright, but more difficult to fly than the Lanc - which was fabulous'. 'The Manchester was just not so good, and not many people ever flew it'. He wouldn't say he was glad to see the back of the Manchester, but it was overtaken by the Lanc which was far superior.

In terms of Turner Field - for a short time the RAF came in and joined up with the Americans. So he trained American pilots as well as RAF. This situation worked perfectly well in his opinion. He enjoyed being at Turner Field.

He thinks you are probably right about your instructor coming from Canada.

Geriaviator
13th Dec 2015, 16:20
Danny:
Wrong thread I think, this Hurricane v Spitfire servicing quote is from http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/571571-well-theres-different-view-3.html on which we have both posted.

http://s20.postimg.org/ac4dz6v59/Beaufighter_MK_II_at_RAF_Hibaldstow_Sept_1941.jpg

Walter:
Courtesy Wiki, here is a photo of a Beaufighter Mk II night fighter serial R2402 at Hibaldstow in 1941. It was then transferred to your 54 OTU at Church Fenton; maybe you flew it at some stage in your training? At around 20% the fatality rate on your course was even higher than that for total RAF training accidents. It seems that if the Blenheim didn't kill you, you might just about survive the Beaufighter. Your description of standing behind the pilot for a couple of circuits and then being told to get on with it makes it sound so easy:

Incredible power for take-off, an hour to myself, and it was like my first solo all over. I had no difficulties, all was "a piece of cake".
Then I looked at the Beaufighter pilot's notes at Beaufighter (http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/en/aircraft/uk/bristol-aeroplane-company/beaufighter.html)
HANDLING: Although stable in level flight, cloud or night flying is not advisable as handling becomes difficult at speeds below 180 mph. Firing the 20mm guns causes disturbance of the P4 compass. It may be restored … by firing a one-second burst (about 10 rounds per gun) while flying level on compass North. This should be done at the earliest opportunity.
And all this long before you even ventured near the enemy. Not for the first time, I wonder at the demands made on WW2 aircrew, and salute your bravery and perseverance. Gentlemen, we raise our glasses to you.

Danny42C
13th Dec 2015, 18:16
pulse1 (your #7851),

Congratulations !! for finally persuading Frank to 'cough' (it shows the power of this marvellous Thread: it's taken the tale of an old Beau [and clearly bold !] driver to bring him out of his shell). A hearty welcome to him from all of us who sail in it, he's at liberty to push into our virtual crewroom any time he likes (but IOUs are not allowed in our Tea Swindle, and it's 2d for tea and 3d for coffee any day of the week). And you can come, too !

So now we Nonagarians who gained our wings in WWII are seven (six pilots and one nav). Whoever would have thought it only two years ago ? (reminds me of a Caseval at Geilenkirchen around '60; 11 Sqdn had six (or seven ?) Navs turn up before the first Pilot).

Now I'm not alone any more. Thanks ! Danny.

PS: To Whom it May Concern - Picture Size !

Danny42C
13th Dec 2015, 23:30
Chugalug (and any other truckies on frequency),

When you've a spare moment, have a look at this:
...Antonov 12 ULTIMATE COCKPIT FLIGHT MOVIE ... - YouTube
Video for Antonov 12 ULTIMATE COCKPIT FLIGHT MOVIE: 7 Cams, Takeoff & Landing! [AirClips full flight series]▶ 41:29
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i721IEIGDsU
21 Aug 2015 - Uploaded by Air-Clips.com
On Friday July 10th 2015 the Air Clips Team has joined a flight of Ukraine Air ... Antonov 12 ULTIMATE COCKPIT FLIGHT MOVIE: 7 Cams, Takeoff & Landing! [AirClips full flight series] .... It appears that he hand flew the entire flight and that he had to horse those controls a lot, especially on landing. It's also...
The real hairy bit starts at 33.25 into the 41.29. I now have the greatest respect for you people. Was it often like this in your Hercules ?

Need a stiff dram after watching that ! (Am now quite reconciled to my Vultee Vengeance).

Cheers, Danny

Walter603
14th Dec 2015, 05:00
I did fly in a Mk 2 Beau, not at OTU but at St Athan in South Wales, shortly after being posted to 219 Sqn. (See my next post).
I thought the type was clearly an improvement with its Merlin engines, giving so much better visibility from the cockpit. It was lovely to fly.

Geriaviator
14th Dec 2015, 11:15
This was the moment of truth for me
Post no. 10 from the memoirs of Tempest pilot Flt Lt Jack Stafford, DFC, RNZAF

A Hurricane shot past us and Gus left me to torture him. I could hear his voice: “Turn, you bloody idiot!” I breathed again, rasping gasps brought oxygen to my lungs and I felt as though I had played a game of rugby. I looked around to find myself alone over the Irish Sea. Where the hell was everybody? I saw a Hurricane above me and cautiously joined him. It was Opie from my flight and I slipped in beside him.

Scottie's voice came over the R/T calling gently and calmly. He was doing a large orbit of the area, gathering us up like a hen searching for her brood. We formed up and flew home in silence. My mind reeled, for that had been some experience! I could not believe the level of violence needed to escape death, to obtain victory when confronted by a persistent, determined and skilful enemy. How I learned that day, and what a man to learn from. How lucky I was.

We landed at Annan and assembled in the dispersal. Everybody was talking but nobody was listening. Excitement sounded in every voice, all I could do was listen. It was the moment of truth for me: so this is what it was really about. Through the crowd I saw Gus, he was looking around for me. “Good boy, Staff, you've got a chance!” And he walked away.

Weeks passed. We never stopped dogfighting, our skills were polished, our aggression honed and tempered. We knew exactly what we and our aircraft were capable of. Later we would join squadrons, and we would meet the Hun. He was as hard, as determined, and as skilful as Gus had said he was. Sometimes he killed us, sometimes we killed him.

Now I'm an old man coming to the end of my days on earth. I've had a long life. Maybe if I hadn't met Gus I would not have had all those wonderful years between 20 and 80. I never saw Gus again, but I met the Hun on equal terms thanks to Gus and others like him. I also came to owe much to the grandson of the Hurricane, the magnificent Hawker Tempest.

I don't know if Gus still lives, but I hope so. I have a feeling that he is still around, so I'll say God bless you Gus, wherever you are. Thanks for your help, and may your end come easy.
Jack Stafford continued his training with conversion onto the mighty Hawker Typhoon fighter-bomber, weighing six tons and powered by a 24-cylinder Napier Sabre engine of 2,400 hp. In November 1943 he joined 486 (NZ) Squadron at Tangmere as a sergeant pilot. Our next post joins him on his first combat sortie along the French coast.

Chugalug2
14th Dec 2015, 15:26
Danny, on behalf of all truckies, may I say how much I appreciate your kind words on our behalf. They are all the more appropriate as we are never ones to blow our own trumpet of course. ;)

Having said that, Ukrainian truckies are clearly to be even more admired as throughout the entire 41 minutes sequence not a single in-flight meal is to be seen, let alone a cuppa, other than for the man who just wants to be alone in the downstairs room with a bay window.

All those knobs and switches, I wonder what they're all for? The last time I saw that much polling on the approach was on a Hastings. Had Mr Antonov got round to powered flight controls in the '60s? It would appear not.

sycamore
14th Dec 2015, 15:42
Think it was a Bulgarian crew,Chug....

pettinger93
14th Dec 2015, 15:56
My father, (Captain, later Major) Harold ('Harry') Pettinger, who died last year aged 93 was responsible for the air supply of the special forces Chindits in Burma in 1943/44, using Dakotas and gliders. He was also involved with the building and supply of the jungle airstrips established well behind Japanese lines. He took part in many airdrops over map references in the jungle (including on one occasion £10,000 worth of gold sovereigns ) He spoke of this only in his last years, but was full of praise for the pilots flying in impossible conditions throughout the monsoon season. Some of the flying, landing and take-offs he described almost defy belief, though dad was not given to exaggeration. Flying in cloud, often below tree level, in cloud shrouded mountains, with heavily overloaded Dakotas, and landing on rough, timber strewn and boggy landing strips, and (more often than not) getting the aeroplanes off again, while under fire.

A couple of years ago , shortly before he became unable to walk, the Battle Of Britain Memorial Flight allowed him to wander around and in their Dakota, which meant a huge amount to him, and unleashed many more memories.

My brothers and I would love to hear from anyone who may remember him, or indeed anyone who has similar memories.

Brian 48nav
14th Dec 2015, 21:07
I don't have memories being a baby-boomer, but I can recommend the book 'First in the Indian skies" by Norman L R Franks, the history of 31 Sqn. 31 were equipped with Dakotas and involved with supporting the Chindits and also flying 'The Hump' to China.
One of their pilots, Mike Vlasto ( who used to live in my then village in Somerset ) was IIRC the first to land a Dakota in a jungle clearing and take-off again with wounded soldiers.
Another book on my shelf mentions Vlasto and I note that your father is mentioned several times - 'War in the Wilderness' by Tony Redding.

Danny42C
14th Dec 2015, 21:35
pettinger93,

Let me be the first to welcome you aboard on this Best of Threads on the Best of Forums ! Come on in, the water's fine ! If you're like me, you'll have watched us from the sidelines for a while before putting your oar in, so you know what sort of people we are and what we natter about (and what forgiving Moderators we have). Now I'll take you up on your: ...My brothers and I would love to hear from anyone who may remember him, or indeed anyone who has similar memories... I was in India/Burma late'42 - early'46 (p114/#2262, India starts around p.129 on this Thread). Ask what you like, someone here will have the answer.

Of course we knew all about Brigadier Orde Wingate and the Chindits (Chindit is a corrupted form of the Burmese mythical beast Chinthé or Chinthay, statues of which guarded Buddhist temples.[1].....Wiki) A Chinthe head was their "logo", a unit badge on the shoulder). We, who knew how rough things could be on "our" side of the jungle in the Monsoon, were full of admiration for them. They were dropped from the air into Japanese-occupied Burma, supplied from the air, and had to build their own primitive airstrips from which they (hoped) to be airlifted at the end of the operation.

The Americans had their own 1st Air Commando Group (doing much the same, but further North).

Danny42C.

Danny42C
14th Dec 2015, 21:53
Chugalug,

If that's what you had to do to keep a Ukranian nosewheel job right way up on the tarmac and pointed in the right direction, I shudder to think what a Hastings might have been like !

No wonder our ATC troops all made their wills when they found that the trip to Warton (to see the new "Strikemaster") for which they'd volunteered, was to be flown by a Hastings.

Danny.

Danny42C
15th Dec 2015, 00:52
Global Nav (your #7841 AND MY #7864),
...Dad eventually became a flight mechanic - aircrew - on C-47's and C-46's. Was introduced to a famous US pilot, Philip Cochran, during his action in/over Burma...
Cochran commanded the 1st Air Commando Group in Burma. Among his glider pilots was Jackie Coogan (the child star of the 1921 Chaplin film "The Kid"), who was now a "Flight Officer" (Warrant Officer) in the USAAC. The two (both dead now) are often confused

There was a scabrous story going the rounds in India in the latter part of the war. Coogan had been (briefly) married to a Betty Grable (a famous film star of the day, also deceased) before the war. He was reputed to introduce himself with the words: "Shake the hand that held the p###k that f####d Betty Grable". There is no evidence to support this.

Danny42C.

Union Jack
15th Dec 2015, 09:12
Coogan had been (briefly) married to a Betty Grable (a famous film star of the day, also deceased) before the war.

And Betty Grable does indeed deserve her own place in the "Best of Threads" since, for some obscure reason:hmm:, I recalled the famous shot of her "Million Dollar Legs", looked it up, and read on to discover that she had starred as a WAAF in a 1941 film https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Yank_in_the_R.A.F.:ok:



Jack

brakedwell
15th Dec 2015, 10:19
If that's what you had to do to keep a Ukranian nosewheel job right way up on the tarmac and pointed in the right direction, I shudder to think what a Hastings might have been like !

Some people flew the Britannia like that! Rather than stirring pudding, firmly placing the yoke where you wanted it, then waiting for a reaction worked better.

JAVELINBOY
15th Dec 2015, 10:43
petinger39 welcome to the site.
My father was on the receiving end of the supplies dropped, he was a Chindit whilst with the Kings Liverpool Regiment.
Like many others he hardly ever talked about his experiences which was not surprising with what they went through. Dad was wounded during an ambush by the enemy receiving machine gun wounds breaking both legs and loss of thumb top and two finger tops. He survived by being carried back to a jungle airstrip by the Gurkha soldiers that were with them. Flown out in an American light casualty evac plane to hospital in India where he received treatment.
We lost Dad in 1971 under very upsetting circumstances which with hindsight was a result of what he had gone through we call it post traumatic stress these days.
I did some research and have a copy of his army service which details his movements and medical history which makes pretty grim reading in parts. I was lucky enough to make contact and meet another soldier from his Regiment who had been in the Indian hospital with him sadly he has also passed but thankful I had the opportunity to have met and talked with him. I will always remember his reaction when I showed him a photograph of Dad in uniform, he immediately recognised him and recalled their days together. I was invited to the Chindits Association Dinner and had the opportunity to meet their members, RAF veterans included.
Chindits Special Force Burma 1943-1944 (http://www.chindits.info/index.htm)

pettinger93
15th Dec 2015, 13:12
Great to hear from you all. My father was injured while training for the first Chindit operation, and was not medically recovered enough for the second one, which was probably lucky for him ( and me), as not many came back out of the jungle alive. Dad was then employed as second in command, and then in command, of the air supply operation for the second operation.


It was the USAF who flew Ord Wingate into a mountain in cloud after the RAF said the weather was too bad to fly. My father was the officer responsible for manufacturing and placing the brass plaque on the crash site to commemorate Ord Wingate : Dad was very proud of this. The plaque has subsequently been replaced on site by a bigger / better memorial, but the original brass plaque is now in the care of the Imperial War Museum.


Dad worked with the Gurkas, and we still have a Gurka 'kukri' knife that he treasured. He also spoke with warmth about the local Naga hill tribe in the region who helped and saved many lives at great risk to their own.


I believe that Dad had been in touch with Mr Redding at some point when the book 'War in the Wilderness' was being written.


(Prior to his Burmese escapades, Dad had been wounded and had won the Military Cross as a 2nd Lieutenant, aged 21, during the first Tobruk siege in the N African Desert.)

GlobalNav
15th Dec 2015, 13:38
"Coogan had been (briefly) married to a Betty Grable (a famous film star of the day, also deceased) before the war. He was reputed to introduce himself with the words: ..."

I can't imagine that Coogan earned much respect from his comrades. I'd rather remember meeting Phil Cochran. I suppose we are the same people in uniform as out of it, just different purposes and experiences.

My hat is off to Pettinger93's father, JavelinBoy's father and the men they served with. The combat, jungle and disease must have been awful. God bless their memory. The exact role my father played, except that he was a flight engineer on C-47's and C-46's, I do not exactly know. I think it must have involved airlift and airdrop operations for the forces fighting in Burma.

JAVELINBOY
15th Dec 2015, 14:51
Further to my earlier post regarding the Chindits in Burma one of the vetrans I got to know was Jack Lindo from Liverpool. Jack was a regular soldier in The Kings (Liverpool) Regiment and recorded his experiences with the Chindits in a book he published titled 'From Dingle to Delhi'.
The book follows his life from a youngster in Liverpool and through the Second World War. It is available on that well known South American river site
https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/From_Dingle_to_Delhi.html?id=CG3iZwEACAAJ

One snippet of info I did get from my father was that his chum had received a leg injury so was unfit for taking part in jungle patrols, he volunteered to fly on the air drops as he was fit enough to kick the supply packs out of the door with his good leg. He failed to return from a mission and the aircraft and crew were never found.

Union Jack
15th Dec 2015, 16:31
Just had another look at Wiki on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Yank_in_the_R.A.F and thought that this snippet might be of some interest, not least to our Senior Pilot:

"With principal photography shot from April to July 1941, the film leaned heavily on the headline news of the Battle of Britain. The film begins with U.S. North American Harvard trainers arriving at the U.S.| Canada border at the Emerson, Manitoba crossing, as a means of complying with provisions of the Neutrality Acts prohibiting aid to combatants. The depiction of R.C.M.P. and R.C.A.F. officials meeting the aircraft as they were towed across the border, is a bit of Hollywood license, but the incident is otherwise, mainly accurate, albeit usually a team of horses rather than motor vehicles, did the towing.":ok:

Jack

Danny42C
15th Dec 2015, 20:05
Before starting on the current, magnificent rush of Posts, there are a few rounds left in the magazine........Standby One !

---------------------------------------------


Geriaviator (your #7840, speaking for Jack Stafford [RIP], as he hauls it ever tighter with Gus's "rat-a-tat-tats" in his ears):
...with effort, aching and soaked with sweat, I pulled even harder...
Reminds me of my dive-bombing days in Burma with a Vultee Vengeance. I did 100-120 practice dives, 52 operational and just one "demonstration" after that (which did not, as you may recall, turn out too well !) We'd worked out, by "trial and error", that in a "perfect" dive, starting from 10-12,000, and coming down vertically with dive brakes out and 1/3 throttle, you'd certainly work up to your terminal velocity of 300 mph long before you reached pull-out at 3500 on the ASI (this would be about 3000 AGL true, as the instrument lagged).

At this an average chap, pulling as hard as he could up to "grey-out", should get the thing level at 1000 ft. Of course, operationally, you'd just ease it out to finish among the tree tops where you were pretty well out of harm's way from ground fire. But your "leeway" was just this 1000 ft, and as you started vertical with 300 on the clock (and that translates as 440 ft/sec), so you had 2.3 secs to play with 'tween life and death. Not a lot.

Accordingly, you pulled - and I can feel for Jack Stafford !

Danny.

----------------------------------------------

Walter (your #7834)
...broke out of camp over the barbed wire...
In every camp I was on during the war, there was always, somewhere on the perimeter, a spot where you could come and go without the tedious business of booking-in and out at the Guardroom. Often it would be strategically placed near a bus stop - and on country lanes, most cars would give a lift, and a bus would always pick up a man in uniform anywhere. Curiously enough, although "everybody" knew where these places were, only the SPs (feigned ?) ignorance.

Danny.

---------------------------

Walter (your #7833)
...I think 5 died on our course; one was another mate, Harry Beck who went out on a solo night flight and came back in a bag...
I remember that my Advanced School at Craig Field, Selma, Ala, lost three students killed on Class 42C - and I never even knew about it until I was hunting down statistics for a Post on this Thread. In my defence, I must say that each Course at Advanced School consisted of students from several different Basic Schools, each of which would comprise students from several different Primary Schools. So most of the ones around you at the end would be complete strangers, you would have only a few who'd come (as in my case) all the way with me from Carlstrom to Gunter to Craig.

And, I'm sorry to say, the loss of a stranger meant little in those days (one among so many every day). You got used to it - you had to.

Danny.

-----------------------------------------

Geriaviator (your #7840),
...It's clear from the following post that first experience of 'real' combat flying was a shattering experience...
As I recall, the policy in my time was to put the young men through a 75-hour Course on the fighter they'd be flying in action, tell them what to do and what not to do, waste no ammo on towed targets (which behave nothing like the enemy they'd soon be facing), and hand them over to their Squadrons, having fired nothing more lethal than the popgun they'd had when they were small.

There they learned their trade much as you learn to ride a bike - get on it and have a go ! Oddly enough, it worked quite well (but not, unfortunately, for everyone) - the 'aces' self-selected.

Danny.

----------------------------------------------


GlobalNav (your #7841),
...He was an aircraft mechanic, who assembled from crates of parts packed in cosmoline, many different types...
Extract from my Post p.120 #2383:
...At Craig they decided that. as allied combatants, we should now bear arms, and so we learned American arms drill. The US seemed to be better off than we were in the UK, and had a large stock of Springfield rifles kept in mothballs since 1918. So we did not have to use "pretend" wooden rifles, or pickhelves, as we (and the Home Guard) had to do in the early part of the War. It might have been better for us if we had, for these museum pieces had been inhibited against corrosion when they put them away in 1918. They'd been smothered in an evil Vaseline-like goo. It has a trade name, which I've forgotten.* Twenty years of drying out had turned this into a coating which wouldn't shame a rhinoceros. We had to shift this stuff, and the only way was with steel wool, kerosene and elbow grease.

It's a wonder we had any prints left on our fingertips. To this day, I can't smell paraffin without recalling the hours spent on that miserable chore. Thankfully, we only had to clean them externally, so as to make them look nice. To clean out the bores would have been an awful job: even if it had been done. I wouldn't have cared to be the man who fired the first round through them. Looking back, I suppose the only reason we got them in the first place was that nobody in the US forces would touch them for love or money...
Note *: COSMOLINE ! (Got it after all these years !)

"So he assembled from crates of parts".... The first batch of Vultee Vengeances (US A-31) came out 'CKD' at the end of 1942 (completely knocked down), like those flatpack kits which "Require Simple Home Assembly". But the assembly manuals were missing, they had to be assembled by a sort of three-dimensional jigsaw at Mauripur (inland from Karachi). Or so the story goes.

It's a terribly long shot, but if he was out there at that time, did he ever mention hearing about that ?

Danny.

------------------------------------------

Walter (your #7847)
...instructor, whilst he did a quick take-off and a couple of circuits, talking meanwhile and pointing to various controls and instruments, then landing, disembarking and saying the usual "You've got her. Jump in and buckle up. Good luck"...
Yes, it was odd, after all the Courses we'd been on, and the way that we'd been carefully converted onto each successive training type only after a number of hours dual on each, that at the end we were given the most powerful and complicated front-line machinery in such a casual way.

My experience was exactly the same, I was shown the front cockpit, then put into the back of a Vultee Vengeance, poked the (removable) stick into its socket; all I had was a throttle and rudder bar to go with it. Sgt Reg Duncan (RCAF) took off, trimmed it, handed over and let me play with it for half an hour (of course, I couldn't attempt to land without u/c or flap controls, no wheelbrakes, and no trims).

Then he took it back and landed. "All yours now, chum !". I was, it seemed, a fully qualified VV pilot.

Danny.

-----------------------------------------

GlobalNav (your #7848),
...By the looks of it and imagining it in the hand of a fiercesome bearded turbaned Sikh, I guess I'd be running for my life too...
But if it were a kukri, and in the hand of a small, harmless looking, but clearly annoyed Gurkha, you'd better run twice as fast !

All European males were "Sahibs". Their wives were "Mem-Sahibs", their small sons "Chota (small) Sahibs", their unmarried daughters "Miss-Sahibs". "Babu" was the generic term for a Chief Clerk and the like. The boss of any undertaking was the "Burra" (Great) Sahib. All you needed to know in India was "Kitna Pice ?" ("how much ?", literally, "how many pice ?", the pice being the smallest coin, 1/12 of an anna, an anna 1/16 of a rupee, a rupee then worth £1/14, so about 30 US cents).

Now the Indian rupee is around £1/90, the Pakistan one about £1/120, the £ about $1.50, so it gets a bit complicated. I think they've done away with pice now (I never saw one, so I don't know what it looked like, the smallest coin we used was the anna). That was worth then the same as a 1943 "Penny", which was 1/12 of a Shilling ("Bob"), which was 1/20 of a Pound ("Quid"). which was 20/21 of a Guinea.......

Aren't you glad you won the War of Independence ?

Danny.

GlobalNav
15th Dec 2015, 20:45
Danny, thank you for filling in some of the gaps.

I don't know that my Dad ever mentioned specific bases, but if he did I don't recall. He did serve near Karachi during his three years in India. The types I remember him mentioning were the P-38 and P-47, but I expect he worked on many more types as well. He did say that the airplanes arrived in crates of pieces, and that there were tech reps to guide the mechanics as they put the "puzzle" together. He implied that it was incredibly crazy, but they did their very best. I believe him. Your description of how they removed that awful "gunk" cosmoline sounds about right. Pretty strange some of the things you guys had to do just to fight a war.

Later during his time in India, he served close enough to Burma, that for awhile the possibility of Japanese attack of his base was at least contemplated by his superiors. I know that the 80th Pursuit had a base northeast of Calcutta, equipped with P-38's and P-47's. He told me that his personal weapon, a carbine, was constantly with him then. Perhaps he was sent there. But I shouldn't be guessing, not with you guys who were actually there.

To this day, I remember when my Dad asked me if I needed money by saying, "Need some rupees?" At the time I didn't even get it.

Chugalug2
15th Dec 2015, 23:27
The complete film can be viewed here on YouTube:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Cpa8RMtrGI

viewed, but not entirely heard I'm afraid as the songs have been dubbed out (sorry Danny!), so please do not adjust your sets. There may be some quibble about the use of Lockheed Hudsons on night close formation raids over Berlin and Dortmund, or the special effects and studio shots of a dog fight over Dunkirk, but there was a war on you know!

Ms. Grable is exquisite, the RAF tailoring is exquisite, the shots of Spitfires are exquisite, so enjoy!

Danny42C
16th Dec 2015, 03:20
JAVELIN BOY
...My father was on the receiving end of the supplies dropped, he was a Chindit whilst with the Kings Liverpool Regiment...
My father served his 22 years in the King's Liverpools, finishing as a RQMS after WWI. His father was a Sergeant in the Regiment, too; my Dad was born in Rawalpindi in 1875. You'll know:

♫... "Here's to Maiden of blushing sixteen,
Here's to the Widow of fifty,
Here's to the wilful, extravagant Queen,
And now to the woman that's thrifty...."

"Let the Toast pass, drink to the Lass -
I'll warrant you'll find an excuse for the Glass !"...♫
(the Regimental March)

I clicked on your link, well worth a read. From it, an extract:
...There were two Chindits expeditions into Burma, the first in February 1943 Operation Longcloth, consisted of a force of 3,000 men who marched over 1,000 miles during the campaign. The second expedition, Operation Thursday, in March 1944 was on a much larger scale. It was the second largest airborne invasion of the war and consisted of a force of 20,000 British and Commonwealth soldiers with air support provided by the 1st Air Commando USAAF. Tragically their leader, General Wingate, was killed a few weeks after the launch of Operation Thursday...
Immediately following it was the The Battle of the Admin Box in the Arakan (sometimes referred to as the Battle of Ngakyedauk [colloq. "Okydoke Pass"] or the Battle of Sinzweya). For the first time, a major British formation, bypassed by a Japanese infiltration which cut its LOC, did not retreat, but stood its ground. Supplied and defended by air (using the techniques developed by the Chindits), Messervy's Corps turned the tables on the encircling Japs, whose turn it now was to find themselves starving and cut off from supplies from their main force.

The 14th Army had the upper hand from then on in the Arakan, they were pushing the Jap back south towards Akyab. He reacted in the usual way, digging-in at strongpoints and fighting to the death in them. The Vengeance squadrons came into their own, digging them all out again (complete with occupants).

Danny42C.

Danny42C
16th Dec 2015, 03:54
pettinger93 (your #7870 - re kukris),

From my Post on this Thread, p.137 #2726:
...The kukri was a most imposing piece of hardware, with its silver-banded grip, and the kit of two small skinning knives fitted into a silver-mounted scabbard. It came home with me, and on my return I ran into "Bert" Andrews, my pre-war line manager (and an ex-Captain in the RFC, flying Sopwith Camels). He'd climbed two rungs on the Civil Service ladder while I'd been away, and was now an S.E.O. in another Department.

Before the war, he'd kept me spellbound with tales of his adventures, and when I went into the RAF gave me one of his old RFC tunic buttons for good luck. This has the same crown and eagle as an RAF button but with a "rope" design round the rim. I kept it for long enough, but somewhere it had got lost. Never mind, I'd had all the luck I could reasonably hope for.

Bert had a teenage son who was an avid collector of exotic swords and knives. I passed the kukri on to him. There wasn't much call for them in Southport then. (Nowadays we'd have the Armed Response Squad round within the hour!)...

Danny42C.

Danny42C
16th Dec 2015, 04:07
Brian 48nav (your #7863),
...One of their pilots, Mike Vlasto ( who used to live in my then village in Somerset ) was IIRC the first to land a Dakota in a jungle clearing and take-off again with wounded soldiers...
The name rings a bell, but I can't figure out the context. Wasn't there a film made about the incident, with a title like "Three Miles East of Kalewa", or something of the sort ?

Danny42C.

Danny42C
16th Dec 2015, 04:22
Chugalug (your #7876),
... There may be some quibble about the use of Lockheed Hudsons on night close formation raids...
Three "Bettys" set out in formation with their nav lights on to bomb Calcutta. Unfortunately the pretty display drew the attention of a F/Sgt Pring, who was on patrol with a Beaufighter.

He crept up behind and blew all three out of the air, for which he got a DFM. Was shot down later himself and killed in Burma.

It's just the way it is. Danny.

Danny42C
16th Dec 2015, 04:49
GlobalNav (your #7875),
...He told me that his personal weapon, a carbine, was constantly with him then...
But he wouldn't need to carry it all the time. India and our part of Burma was fairly safe. I had a .38 Smith & Wesson revolver, but it only came out of my "tin box" (aka Uniform Case), when I wore it when flying on ops.

Would much sooner have had a .45 Colt automatic pistol like your lot (more stopping power). :*

But then you chaps were sweltering in slacks, while we were nice and cool in shorts. It's six of one and half-a-dozen of the other ! :ok:

Danny.

Chugalug2
16th Dec 2015, 08:43
Pettinger93 welcome to our humble abode. The furniture is utility and worn, the stove has an unfortunate habit of plummeting the room into IMC in certain wind conditions, and the hygiene arrangements wrt chipped crockery might be open to some improvement, but we are a happy band, united across the world by our interest in the aerial struggle of WWII and its aftermath.

Now we have a record number of contributors, with new ones joining us all the while. Despite its cosy setting our Crewroom in the Cloud has a seemingly infinite capacity to accommodate all comers in surprising comfort, each to add yet another viewpoint whether gained first hand, from their elders, or simply having absorbed the mountain of testimony available. The further we get from this global struggle the more it impresses in its extent and scope. Ironically I find that is better appreciated in the stories that you have of your father, that Danny recalls of when he was a young man, and from all who have posted here, than in the grand sweep scenarios of strategy.

For those interested in the airborne aspect of the Burma Campaign, may I point to "Drop Zone Burma, Adventures in Air-Supply 1943-45" by Roger Annett? Available down a certain South American river, it tells the story in the words of those who participated, as here.

pettinger93
16th Dec 2015, 08:50
Re Dad's Kukri: Dad's weapon has no silver adornment, only a little detailed carving in the wooden handle. He told me that the blade was made for him in the Chindit base workshop by a Nepalese blacksmith from the leaf-spring from a truck: heated, beaten and and tempered by hand, and assembled by some of his Gurka soldiers. I gather that it was used in in action at one point, but Dad would never talk about that. My youngest brother Andrew has it now.


Would also like to praise the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight. As I mentioned, they wee very kind to Dad. When arranging the visit, I imagined that we would just be shown around the edge of the hanger like any other visitor. However, we were allocated a senior NCO who took us to the Dakota, and helped us into it and showed around the aircraft. Dad was able to sit in the pilots seat, and talk for ages with the NCO. Afterwards we had an 'up close and personal' inspection of all the other Flight aircraft.


For a while, Dad could hardly speak through his emotions, and I cannot speak highly enough about the BBMF.

Danny42C
16th Dec 2015, 12:34
Pettinger93,

You may find this excerpt from my Post 132 #2621 amusing:
...Small-gauge railways to places like Dehra Dun (not sure), Chakrata - certainly ! While there I was told that the local kukri-smiths found rail steel just the job - it would take a lovely edge. Driver of 8.15 gets shock when loco drops on to sleeper, length of line lifted during night !

Gentlemen's agreement reached: old worn lines left by side of track for the smiths when replaced by new: new ones no longer pinched !...
Danny.

Danny42C
16th Dec 2015, 12:52
Chugalug,

I found a note of this on one of my files - may be worth a look:
...Britain’s longest campaign of World War II – Burma
- See more at: Burma ? Britain?s longest campaign of World War II, links to photographs, videos and other resources (http://ww2today.com/featured/burma-britains-longest-campaign-of-world-war-ii#sthash.oMStZvgU.dpuf)

Burma – Britain's longest campaign of World War II, links to ...
ww2today.com/featured/burma-britains-longest-campaign-of-world-war-ii
For all except the last hundred miles to its mouth, it cuts its way through high mountains. Because of its speed .... Troops of 11th East African Division on the road to Kalewa, Burma, during the Chindwin River crossing. .... I would love to see a movie made of the Burma campaign. ..... jonathan Kruger April 24, 2014 at 3:34 am...
But not the Errol Flynn version, please ! :*

Danny.

pettinger93
16th Dec 2015, 13:43
Talking of the Chindit base workshop: A great deal of imaginative engineering improvisation took place there. One of the many items air dropped into the jungle were some of the earliest petrol outboard motors, (then a very new invention), used by the Chindits to drive rafts etc across jungle rivers. As delivered, they were very unreliable, so had to be rebuilt by the army engineers at the base and 'run in' before use. To do the latter, they were each placed in old fuel drums filled with water, and run until the requisite period had passed.

When clearing Dad's house after his death, we found several original note books containing the code words and numbers used by Chindits in the jungle to order their requirements for the next airdrop, and to give their location. They were marked 'top secret', though I guess that no longer applies after 70+ years. We have passed them to the Imperial War Museum, though I have no idea what they will do with them.

Geriaviator
16th Dec 2015, 15:30
http://s20.postimg.org/bnn64n19p/Typhoon_IB_486_Sqn_1943.jpg

Just watch my arse and make sure we don't get bounced by cunning little Huns!
Post no. 11 from the memoirs of Tempest pilot Flt Lt Jack Stafford, DFC, RNZAF

THE NAPIER Sabre engine in my Typhoon roared as I watched “Woe” Wilson sitting in the other kite. He signalled to me, released his brakes and started to move forward from the dispersal. As he taxied to the perimeter track his speed increased and he moved quickly towards the western end of the airfield. Feeling tense but more than ready to do the job in hand, I followed.

It all began on a cold, grey winter morning. Low clouds swept across the airfield and the pilots sat around the stoves in the dispersals, smoking, playing cards and waiting. A quarter of an hour earlier I had been sitting with them when the flight commander, Frank Murphy, walked in. “Wilson, take Stafford and carry out a patrol along the French coast from Boulogne to Dieppe. Some Spits went out on a rhubarb a while ago and they should be leaving France soon. You provide a bit of support in case they are intercepted. Have a look at the harbours as you go down the coast for anything unusual in the offing”. (A rhubarb was an offensive fighter patrol designed to draw the Luftwaffe into battle.)

Frank looked at me. “Ready for your first show, Staff?” “Yes sir,” I answered, my excitement rising rapidly. On operations at last! This was the culmination of all the training, all the waiting, all the hoping for acceptance, all the fear of rejection. Back from this, and I would be an operational pilot. Woe had been on the squadron for some time and had shown me consideration and friendship since my arrival a month or so earlier. I was glad I was going with him; Frank Murphy was a most able and astute leader, and he probably knew I would be comfortable and well looked after with Woe.

We picked up our Mae Wests and our parachutes, then walked out to the aircraft. “Keep up with me Staff”, he said. “Don't lag or stuff around, I'll be busy enough without looking after you.” I nodded and asked if he had any particular instructions. “Yes. Remember you're here to make sure we don't get bounced by some cunning Huns in their dangerous little Focke-Wulfs or 109s … Just watch my arse”. We walked on in silence, each deep in his own thoughts.

The green light flashed from the control tower and we moved onto the runway, turning into the wind. Woe looked across, his face obscured by his oxygen mask, and gave me the thumbs-up. He turned his head back and I saw him opening up, so I did the same. Side by side we thundered down the runway with breathtaking acceleration. Smoothly we left the ground, raised our undercarts, and climbed into that overcast, threatening sky. I throttled back to stay with Woe and checked my airspeed, 190 mph, and we were climbing steadily. Tangmere disappeared into the gloom behind us as we scuttled across the countryside.

We crossed the English coast and swiftly dropped until we were just above the waves, beneath enemy radar. We went into cruise at 3700 rpm, +4.5 boost, and Woe set course for France. I scanned the sky above and behind, watching, always watching. It seemed no time until Woe's voice was in my headphones: “OK, Music Red 2” and we climbed to just below cloud base, with the enemy coast ahead.

pulse1
17th Dec 2015, 08:20
I asked Frank about the problems with the compass after firing the cannons and he confirmed that it was so. However, he couldn't remember curing it by firing the guns again on a northerly heading mentioned by Walter (7855). Frank remembers having to carry out a compass swing while airborne using known landmarks. The thought of doing that while over enemy territory, and looking for enemy fighters, is yet another fact which fills me with awe at what these guys did.

Anyway, COMING SOONto a thread near you:

Some genuine 1941 RAF Navigation Exams (just as soon as I can be confident of up loading them without bringing Pprune crashing down)

Chugalug2
17th Dec 2015, 09:34
Jack Stafford (c/o Geriaviator):-
THE NAPIER Sabre engine in my Typhoon roared Napier and Son should be better known as an industrial, marine, rail, and aero engine manufacturer than they are in the British consciousness in my view. They were forever at the leading edge of technology, utilising H blocks, sleeve valves, opposed pistons and deltoid layouts in order to ever increase the available power. If they had one weakness it might be said that they were too clever for their own good, but that could be said of anyone pushing at the constraints of the envelope. Reliability thus suffered and even in military use that could be said to be almost as important as performance.

No doubt we will hear more of that from Jack Stafford, but a company that successfully adapted the pre war Junkers Jumo aircraft diesel engines (under licence) into the post war Deltic engine for the BR diesel electric locos of the same name had something going for it. By this time they had been taken over by English Electric, they in turn by GEC, they in turn by Alstrom, thence to Siemens, and were then subject to a management buyout.

The Deltic was the end of the road for Napier as an engine manufacturer, and it is now reduced to the making of turbochargers under Wabtec. A case of how the mighty are fallen, or par for the course for a UK manufacturer? Either way my take would have been to "keep it simple, stupid", but I'm only an ex-driver airframe. Perhaps our resident engineers would care to comment (and no doubt take issue with my unjustified generalisations)?

I should add that my info is trawled as ever from Wiki:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napier_%26_Son

Fareastdriver
17th Dec 2015, 10:20
They have got a sectionalised Napier Sabre engine on a stand at Duxford. Unless you understand the principle of sleeve valve engines it's an absolute nightmare to look at.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=napier+sabre+restoration&rls=com.microsoft:en-US:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7SMSN_enJE648&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwirpMPx4-LJAhVFxRQKHTZjDQwQsAQIMQ&biw=1280&bih=904#imgrc=9VICOlou6uhGrM%3A

BEagle
17th Dec 2015, 13:29
I still have the kukri given to my late father by his men during his wartime service in Burma with the Royal Bombay Sappers and Miners.

It was made from the leaf spring of one of the trucks his company used, which had been written off in an accident.

Not a 'decorative' item, it has a 15" blade....:eek:

Chugalug2
17th Dec 2015, 13:40
Thanks FED. The sleeve valves were indeed the Achilles heel of the Sabre, and Bristol had similar issues of course with their ever more powerful radials. The way that their expertise and tooling was "appropriated" to ensure the reliable production of the Sabre, together with a rob Peter (in this case Pratt & Whitney) to pay Paul (Napiers) arrangement for centerless grinders is described here:-

Sabre II sleeve valve engine | Warbird Engines (http://aviationshoppe.com/sabre-ii-sleeve-valve-engine-p-256.html)

Reader123
17th Dec 2015, 13:46
Walter603, what a Christmas treat! Thank you for your contributions and for bringing this thread back to firing on all twelve cylinders, I hadn't looked here for a bit as 1960s ATC is somewhat minority interest...

You piqued my interest when you wrote:

"When we passed out of SFTS with our Wings on 23 December, Hasenfus was commissioned, and you will believe it because that's the way the idiot Service managers did things in those days."

which made me have a look in the London Gazette, not least as I hoped to find out something about him - not least whether he managed the usual promotions. However I can find no Hasenfus - if you stick

Hasenfus site:wwwthegazette.co.uk

into Google then you will see. So no joy there. Did he have another name?

Geriaviator
17th Dec 2015, 15:18
Fellow Pruners:

I read engineer/author L J K Setright's book entitled The Power to Fly when I was studying for my engineer exams in the 1960s. He was obviously captivated by this mechanical masterpiece and extracts from his tribute can be seen at The Greatest Engines of All Time by LJK Setright (http://www.hawkertempest.se/index.php/contributions/stories/130-the-greatest-engines-of-all-time-by-ljk-setright) If the Americans wondered at the Napier-Bristol squabble one wonders what they would make of the Rolls-Royce machinations. FED's right about the Duxford engine, after I spent almost an hour poring over it a kindly attendant approached to ask if I was all right.

More praise for the Sabre can be found in Pierre Clostermann's book The Big Show. Clostermann flew Tempests with 122 Wing which included Jack Stafford's 486 (NZ) Sqn, and he recounts that at one stage the Tempests shouldered much of the airborne load as the Allies advanced into Germany, ground attack in particular taking a terrible toll. After the war I have read that the Sabre was granted a civil aviation certification rated at 5000bhp for takeoff, but by then it was clear that the future lay with the turbojet.

Fareastdriver
17th Dec 2015, 15:56
The kukris worn and used by serving Gurkhas in Borneo were issued, therefore they had a serial number stamped on them. Very difficult to get hold of one, for obvious reasons, as they are effectively in the same bracket as guns.

Not as good as a machete for slashing through secondary jungle so they carried those as well.

plus an Armalite
plus God knows how much ammo
plus a thundering great big rucksack with motor barrels and/or bombs
plus a big smile
sometimes holding a baby gibbon.

Danny42C
17th Dec 2015, 18:23
Geriaviator (your #7887),
...Side by side we thundered down the runway with breathtaking acceleration...
An extract from my p.123 #2455 (and a lesson in humility !)
...I saw my first "Typhoon" there, flown in by the ATA; in early 42 that was a very rare bird indeed. They hadn't got the carburetion sorted out properly yet; every start was a toss-up whether the engine would run or burst into flames. A fire truck had to stand by every time, and this always attracted a crowd (don't we all enjoy a good bonfire?) On the morning of the Typhoon's departure, a small bunch of us, not scheduled to fly till later, strolled round the taxyway to watch the fun from a safe distance.

All was made ready, the pilot came out and jaws dropped. A pert little blonde in a snazzy white flying overall hopped up into the cockpit. This put quite a different face on things. We hadn't come here to watch a re-run of St-Joan-at-Rouen, and were glad to see that she didn't strap herself in before pressing the button. The fire crew gripped their extinguishers, we held our breath.

The ancients believed the unicorn to be a savage beast, only to be subdued by a chaste young maiden. There may have been something in it, the big "Sabre" fired-up with no more than the customary snarl of fire and brimstone from the exhaust stubs, then idled sweet as a nut. Our aviatrix ran through the checks, imperiously waved chocks away, and off she went.

We walked back pensively to our Spitfires with male egos sadly deflated. If this chit of a girl could handle a monster like that, where did that leave us? The message was reinforced as we came up to the marshalling point, she came bellowing down the runway and flashed past us fifty feet in the air. We trudged glumly back to our Flights...

Danny.

EDIT: Only other thing I remember about Typhoons was a tale told me by an old airtrafficker. He'd had to put it down wheels-up, as they were careering along the Sabre broke out and continued bouncing along beside him like a friendly dog. He was rather apprehensive that it might land on top of him, but they came to rest apart. D.

sycamore
17th Dec 2015, 18:38
FED, you forgot the bottle of `rum`....

Union Jack
17th Dec 2015, 19:03
You piqued my interest when you wrote:

"When we passed out of SFTS with our Wings on 23 December, Hasenfus was commissioned, and you will believe it because that's the way the idiot Service managers did things in those days."

which made me have a look in the London Gazette, not least as I hoped to find out something about him - not least whether he managed the usual promotions. However I can find no Hasenfus - if you stick

Hasenfus site:wwwthegazette.co.uk

into Google then you will see. So no joy there. Did he have another name? - Reader123

More of another nationality than a name it might appear from a look at the following links, firstly:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/37995/page/2869/data.pdf

which is from:

"THE LONDON GAZETTE, 24 JUNE, 1947
LIST of ALIENS to whom Certificates of
Naturalization have been granted by the Secretary of
State, and whose Oaths of Allegiance have been
registered in the Home Office during the month of
May, 1947.
The date shown in each case is the date on which
the Oath of Allegiance was taken."

then the following, which may be of even greater interest, not least because it seems that what seems to be our man was Polish but educated in Germany, with some intriguing Australian connections:

PERCIVAL PROCTOR IN AUSTRALIA (http://www.goodall.com.au/australian-aviation/percival-proctor/percival-proctor.html)

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1301&dat=19480527&id=JPBhAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2JMDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3323,4382348&hl=en

16 Apr 1948 - MIGRANT FERRY PILOT (http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/49984663)

No "hasenfus" emerges from a cursory look at Australian White Pages, but I suggest that Walter and John are better placed to dig further, should they so desire.

Over to you!:ok:

Jack

Danny42C
17th Dec 2015, 20:19
pulse1 (your #7888),
...Frank remembers having to carry out a compass swing while airborne using known landmarks. The thought of doing that while over enemy territory, and looking for enemy fighters, is yet another fact which fills me with awe at what these guys did...
It would fill me with awe, too ! Think, he's a bit "off the beam" here (Compass swings were generally done on a Compass Swinging Platform on the airfield. (See my p.138 #2744 on this Thread).

Never heard of it being done in the air, but someone will enlighten us, I'm sure !

Danny. :confused:

PeregrineW
17th Dec 2015, 22:20
You're never too old to learn something new, but as an old Nav Insty, I think it would have been a bit tricky to set up a Medium Landing Compass (or worse still, a Watts Datum Compass) behind an airborne fixed wing aircraft. Might just have got away with it with a helicopter, had enough beer been on offer.

Fixed landmarks - better than nothing but you'd need at least four at the cardinal points to get any sort of accuracy...

Warmtoast
17th Dec 2015, 22:43
pettinger93 & BEagle


Re. your posts about knives made from the leaf-springs of vehicles.
Seems to be a common practice in the East to use/re-cycle left-over car springs as I have a souvenir knife from my time in Gan (1958), allegedly made from the springs of a vehicle left behind on the island when the Brits departed Gan (Addu Atoll) at the end of WW2. See below.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/Sheath%20Knife%201_zps4ltz06a9.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/Sheath%20Knife%20Scabbard%20-%20Copy_zpsmgwp1rfw.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/Sheath%20Knife%20-%20Made%20in%20Hitadu_zpszv3dini6.jpg



http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/Sheath%20Knife_zpszzbqmjws.jpg

Still razor-sharp, it comes in useful when a particularly hard-to-open cardboard box needs opening!

PeregrineW
17th Dec 2015, 22:51
I have a 1936 Morris Eight. Parts are becoming hard to find...I wonder if it would be possible to make some leaf springs from old knives?

mikehallam
18th Dec 2015, 09:42
That 'Compass Swing' piece:

Possibly all that meant was to fly on any approx. known heading when able to, just see if the compass agrees - which very crudely would show it wasn't a mile out.

That's all, IMHO.

mike hallam

Geriaviator
18th Dec 2015, 13:40
It is possible to do a compass swing in the air, involving many headings to various landmarks across a pinpoint. The Beaufighter procedure mentioned wasn't a compass swing, just an instruction in Pilot's Notes for the type:
Firing the 20mm guns causes disturbance of the P4 compass. It may be restored … by firing a one-second burst (about 10 rounds per gun) while flying level on compass North.If this was not practical, perhaps because half the Luftwaffe was after you, the notes suggest the pilot uses headings passed from the observer's compass which was not affected.

Further to the sad story of the Australian Proctors, we had to scrap one of these shortly before we chopped the Messenger. I have since recalled conversations with our ARB Surveyor Mr. C. H. Taylor, whose main job in the war years had been as a de Havilland engineer responsible for keeping scores of Tiger Moths on the line each morning.

The problems with casein glue were well known and it was no surprise that the Proctor structures were delaminating as it was kept outside for some time in its history. I remarked that even modern glues could not be trusted as I had read of Mosquitos losing wings in the tropics but Mr. Taylor said there was no problem with the Mosquito adhesives. In fact de Havilland soon found the failures were due to manufacturing defects, but the 'tropics failure' story was allowed to stand in order to preserve morale.

harrym
18th Dec 2015, 17:32
My log book records that I flew several compass swing sorties during the period Feb-April 1946 while at Hmawbi (approx 40 miles north of Rangoon), accompanied by SNCOs of the then trade of 'Compass Swing Specialist (or whatever). I have no memory of how the procedure was actually carried out, other than that I complied with such requests from them as to heading etc to be flown.

Hmawbi, having a PSP runway and taxyways,would have been quite unsuitable for a ground swing, so perhaps this trade was established to deal with the problem; for sure, after our squadron moved to Hong Kong, I logged no further airborne swings.

harrym

Geriaviator
18th Dec 2015, 19:52
Jack has his first look at enemy territory
Post no. 12 from the memoirs of Tempest pilot Flt Lt Jack Stafford, DFC, RNZAF
THE FRENCH coast appeared as our Typhoons rose. I took a quick glance then swivelled my neck around, searching the sky above and behind Woe's rudder. We had almost reached the coastal sands when Woe called again: “Ninety degrees starboard, Red 2”.

We turned and started down the coast. At each port we swung in low over the roadstead and I would risk a quick glance at the shipping below and the harbour buildings, for it was all new to me. Then I would swiftly scan the sky that might hold half a dozen Fw190s looking for us, or the returning Spits. My pulse sped up at each new spot on the windshield or each new imagined shadow on the clouds. So we droned on towards Dieppe, intent on carrying out our instructions.

“Music aircraft, Kenway calling, are you receiving me, over?” “Music red one receiving you loud and clear”. “Return to base all Music aircraft, repeat return to base, Kenway out”. “Roger wilco out”, replied Woe. Then to me: “Spits must be home. Turning starboard 320 degrees”. Smoothly we turned around and started back across the cruel, indifferent, sullen, turbulent, all-devouring Channel that was the last resting place of so many warrior airmen. We flew back close to the clouds, ready to use them as refuge if a squadron of Huns appeared out of the mist with malice intended.

Woe watched his heading, I watched Woe's tail. His voice broke through the Typhoon's drone: “Turn on your IFF, Staff, England coming up”. I threw the Identification Friend or Foe switch, a necessity to protect us from our own flak and perhaps our own patrolling fighters. But there were no fighters in this weather, I thought.

The cloud base lowered and we crossed the English coast almost on the deck, slightly west of Brighton. Woe knew every inch of the coast, and soon we swung low over Chichester and the Tangmere runway came into sight. Echelon starboard, said Woe, and we roared along the downwind leg. We turned crosswind, lower undercarriage, green lights on. Flaps, and the Typhoon changed attitude. We approached at 130 mph, crossed the perimeter track, eased back on the sticks and dropped gently onto the runway like two feathers side by side.

Woe looked across at me and nodded; I felt that he was pleased. We kept a bit of throttle and sped down the runway towards our dispersal, slowing to walking pace as the ground crew came towards us and waved us into our parking places. As I shut down and wound back the hood the grinning mechanic was up on the wing to help me with the straps. Still smiling, he asked how my first op had gone. Grinning even wider, I replied: “Just great”. “Did you get a Hun?” he asked. “No such luck, I never even saw one”. He patted my shoulder. “You will”, he said. Woe was waiting for me and we walked together to our dispersal.“Good show, Staff”, he said, and I warmed at this unusual praise. I could not stop grinning.

Danny42C
18th Dec 2015, 20:04
kukris,

It has occurred to me that my "full kit" of silver ornamented kukri and skinning knives in a scabbard might have been intended for the tourist traffic rather than serious use. As far as I remember, I bought it in some bazar around '43 for a (haggled down to) Rs20, which was good money at the time. I suppose that I'd been "done" (as you always were).

The idea was that it would help to cut our way through the jungle if we had to bale out and walk home. In 'op' attire, it rode on my R. hip (on the other side was the .38 S&W). Luckily the VV cockpit was enormous. Yes, I think a machete would have been a better idea, but anyway, as it happened, the need didn't arise.

Danny.

PS: harrym, good to hear from you :ok: (when one of our 90+ brigade goes quiet, you worry a bit). D.

Danny42C
18th Dec 2015, 20:36
Geriaviator (pp Jack Stafford DFC),

Another gripping, poetic, instalment !
...Still smiling, he asked how my first op had gone. Grinning even wider, I replied: “Just great”...
Yes, it is a great moment when you realise that you're some use to the Air Force at last, after all the long months of training ! :ok:

Danny.

Danny42C
19th Dec 2015, 00:55
mikehallam (your #7903),

We used to line up on the runway for take-off, put its known magnetic heading on the Directional Gyro, and not bother about compasses or anything else. As our trips were never much more than an hour, it worked well enough (unless you threw it about a bit, and toppled the gyros, in which case you were back to square one).

In the same way, you zeroed the altimeter on the ground, and that was good enough locally until you got back. En route, of course, you'd work on the Regional QNH.

Life was simple in those days. Danny.

Walter603
19th Dec 2015, 05:14
54 OTU continued

(Simple technical stuff was for the young members of the family when I wrote this years ago).

At night, with never a glimmer of light from the blacked-out land, only the snow could be seen by moonlight. On overcast nights, sitting in the icy cockpit of a Blenheim was a weird experience which took a good deal of getting used to. The faint glimmer of the instrument panel had to be watched carefully the whole time one was flying. The artificial horizon showed a thin horizontal line, representing the aircraft's wings relative to the actual horizon (unseen). A turn to the left or right, and the instrument's wings dipped accordingly. A dive or a climb, and the wings dropped or lifted, showing the line of the "horizon" above or below the wings. Together with the air speed indicator and the rate of climb indicator, one had to watch closely to see that the aircraft was kept on an even keel, and behaved exactly as one wanted, without the benefit of being able to refer to the
ground for a sense of equilibrium.

The ground training now took on a very exciting aspect. We were let into the secrets of radar, which was in its infancy. We were constantly reminded of the importance of preserving secrecy, warned against careless and boastful talk, and were not even allowed to take notes during our lecture sessions.

Radar for night fighting consisted of an array of aerials mounted in the nose of the combat aircraft (not on our training craft) from which signals were despatched and received. Bouncing off anything in its path, it would reflect another aircraft within reasonable distance of the hunter. This reflection was transmitted as light signals (or "blips") into a pair of radar tubes, rather like very small TV sets, mounted in the navigator's cockpit midway down the fuselage. By reference to horizontal and vertical measuring scales imprinted on the faces of the tubes, the navigator could interpret height and distance from the hunter to the hunted aircraft. These were passed by intercom from the radar observer (RO) to the pilot.

By the use of mock-up sets in the hangars and lecture rooms, we were able to practise the technique of hunting and chasing enemy aircraft by night, after first being "vectored" from ground stations to within four or five miles of intruders. Meanwhile, we were taught all the other skills of flying - cross-country journeys, taking off and landing in almost complete darkness, relieved only by the last-minute switching on of flare paths and landing lights, keeping patrol station by flying between designated ground radar beacons which sent out ghostly wireless and radar signals to fix their positions.

Danny42C
19th Dec 2015, 07:40
Walter,
...(Simple technical stuff was for the young members of the family when I wrote this years ago)...
And a very good summary of the mysteries of A.I. (Airborne Interception), too. Today's pilots, cossetted with full runway and approach lighting, VASIs, ILS and GCA and (God save the mark !) Autoland, flying over towns and countryside lit up like Blackpool Tower, can have little idea of the horror of flying, on a moonless night, off a single row of goosenecks on an unlit field into a pitch-black nothingness - and then getting down on that field again !

As you say, the Artificial Horizon was your lifeline and you hung onto it like grim death. Tee Emm printed a very good poem of which I recall only scraps:
......................trying might and main,
Drift has changed with loss of height, round we go again.
Gremlins rap the perspex, thoughts come thick and fast -
Stick to the Sperry Panel, or your thoughts will be your last !...
The AH was the master instrument on that Panel, always in the place of honour (top centre), and in our day it could be "locked" in the level position by a "caging" knob below. This was a godsend if you'd "toppled" the gyro (IIRC, by a pitch change of 40° or a roll of 50°- or was it the other way round ?). Either way it was then useless, unless and until you'd regained level flight by using your Limited Panel (Airspeed and the "Turn and Bank" or "Needle and Ball" [UK or US to taste]: "Needle-ball-airspeed", our US Instructors hammered into us !) Then you could "cage" the AH gyro horizon line (reeling drunkenly all over the place) back level with this knob, unlock and "Halleluja !" you had an AH again (or not as the case might be !) This demonstrates why a pilot who loses control in extreme turbulence (in a thunderhead, say) is as good as dead (with all passengers) unless he is very lucky.

But there is a hidden, deadly danger in this Caging Knob. The practice was always to leave your cockpit with both gyro instruments (AH and the DI [Direction Indicator - a compass with no north-seeking ability....Irish, perhaps ?] "caged"). Indeed, failing to do so at my OTU attracted a fine. Of course, a pilot would never attempt to take off without first unlocking his gyros, would he ? We..ll, you'd think not. But it has been done on occasion. := Of course by day, it doesn't matter, you have the real horizon in full view. But on a dark night, with little or no horizon (at sea, say....)

In 1943 a B-24, carrying Marshal Sikorski (Premier of Free Poland) took off from Gibraltar and went straight into the drink. No survivors. I have always believed that the pilot was using his AH after leaving the runway - but it was caged ! But what do I know ?

By now all pilots in our Crewroom are "spitting feathers" (you don't teach Grandmother how to suck eggs), but for the unfortunates who place their lives in our hands, this explanation may be of some interest. As you say Walter: "simple technical stuff for the young members of the family".

Cheers, Danny.

Fixed Cross
19th Dec 2015, 08:09
Not quite a full swing but in the 60s I was climbing through solid cloud at night in a JP when the aircraft was hit by lightning. No nasty reaction except both the gyro G4 and the E2 were clearly unreliable.

Continued up above cloud and called for advice. Nothing practical as all suggestions required sight of known landmarks. Then realised that the stars might provide an answer. Identified the north star (polaris), pointed the JP at it, set DG (Directional gyro option) on the G4 and synched the compass to 360.

Thought I was being a real Smart A*** - worked OK for the subsequent QGH on the dials. On the ground my smug attitude was rapidly deflated when the Flt Cdr asked why I had not added extra 7 degrees to the compass setting to allow for the then variation.

How are the mighty .....

John Eacott
19th Dec 2015, 08:38
Danny,

Instrument flying is in our family DNA, since I have had an IR since (about) 1969! Your admonition about flying over lit towns, etc, holds little for a Navy pilot used to flying over the unlit ocean for 4 hours at a time below 200ft in fog ;) Then returning to a darkened ship, too.

Mind you, flying over much of Australia is above the GAFA with not much in the way of ground lighting.

Caged gyros are still around, although not so much these days. Going off on a tangent they are quite helpful when moving a skid equipped helicopter on a trolley since the lack of suspension can play havoc with a gyro unless it is either fully wound down, fully erect or caged. Since it can take 20 minutes to wind down most moves are made with the battery on and the gyro fully erect, but that does require a memory action by the pilot/engineer which can be forgotten.

Union Jack, I read your post about Hasenfus to Dad and tried a bit more research, but with little more than you found. Although Polish he was educated/lived in both Germany and Switzerland and Dad recalls vividly how unpleasant it was to listen to, let alone put up with, his extolling of the virtues of the way things were done 'so much better in Germany'. Quite odd for a Pole who was being trained to fly and fight against that very nation?!

Danny42C
19th Dec 2015, 10:47
Fixed Cross (your #7912),
...Continued up above cloud and called for advice. Nothing practical as all suggestions required sight of known landmarks. Then realised that the stars might provide an answer...
Good God ! Was it for the likes of this lot of ATCOs that I laboured three long years with "chalk and talk" at the JATCS at Shawbury ?

It was "in the '60s" and you were in a JP (please tell me it wasn't Leeming !). Had they never heard of "No Compass, No Gyro Procedures ?" What an Approach Room full of buffoons ! Whoever was on the CADF at the time should have had his/her Certificate of Competency torn up before his/her eyes, and been drummed out. (And SATCO, too, for giving it to him/her in the first place).

All day, the "Sun's Azimuth" was the preferred method for ATC. * If you couldn't see the sun (unlikely in your case, as normally you'd be above cloud or could easily get there), then things were more difficult, but I've had success with (and we taught) the "two and one" method, and that works day and night. And every cub Scout can identify Polaris.
...worked OK for the subsequent QGH...
I should damn well think so ! - after you'd done the hard work for them !

Note * There is a DIY method: if you take that enormous knuckleduster off your left wrist and point the hour hand at the Sun, then half way between the hour hand and 12 is South (1 pm and South in "A" time). But Approach has the figures for Sun's Azimuth (for all daylight hours) in front of him/her (or should have).

Words fail me ! :=

Danny.

Danny42C
19th Dec 2015, 11:38
John (your #7913),

I didn't think of you people who Go Down to the Sea in Ships (not this child!), I'm afraid. (My hat is off to you!)

We were taught always to cage our gyros whenever we were going to do aerobatics (or, in our case, dives) and always when shutting down. This was to avoid damage to the rotor bearings, I was told. Knowing nothing of helicopter operation, I suppose that was the same problem.

When did the caging knobs disappear, and what did the aviators do then, poor things ?

Danny.

Geriaviator
19th Dec 2015, 14:39
Walter

Thank you for another succinct and excellent account. Were you given instrument training on the Link Trainer before you flew the Blenheim? Did you have red panel lighting in your 'icy' Blenheim cockpit or did you rely on the luminous paint on the instruments? As Danny says, we newbies in our comfy, easy-handling Pipers, with all sorts of electronics, can have little idea of what the WW2 novice had to cope with until the black boxes go wrong, of course :eek:
Interesting to hear you had ground simulators for radar training, I had not heard of these. Just another example of how fortunate we are to enjoy such descriptions from the men who were there.
Danny, I think the caging knobs disappeared in the 1960s, at least on civilian aircraft. Subsequent instruments seem to manage without them.

Gyro caging
Fifty years ago my instructor Desmond, who had flown Catalinas from Lough Erne in Northern Ireland, drilled me relentlessly on the importance of pre-flight checks and gyro caging/setting. As a grim lesson he explained that flying-boat gyros had to be caged until the last moment to avoid damage during movements on rough water. One departing patrol failed to uncage for the takeoff run and climbed into low cloud; under full power, the Catalina veered gently left and hit Magho mountain a mile or so away. The crew rest forever in St. John's Churchyard at nearby Irvinestown, and fragments of alloy can still be found near the summit of Magho.

Stanwell
19th Dec 2015, 14:55
Fascinating stuff.


Re John Eacott's reference (7913) to the 'GAFA', anybody not know what that is?

Out Of Trim
19th Dec 2015, 15:08
GAFA : Geographical reference.

Refers to the central area of the Australian continent..the Great Australian F:mad:k All.

Had to look that one up myself!

pulse1
19th Dec 2015, 15:42
Danny said Life was simple in those days. Danny.

I must say that was not the first thing that entered my mind when I saw these exam papers from 1941

http://www.pprune.org/members/19949-pulse1-albums-1941-nav-exam-picture48-nav-pt-1.jpg

http://www.pprune.org/members/19949-pulse1-albums-1941-nav-exam-picture49-nav-pt-2.jpg

Union Jack
19th Dec 2015, 21:56
Although Polish he was educated/lived in both Germany and Switzerland and Dad recalls vividly how unpleasant it was to listen to, let alone put up with, his extolling of the virtues of the way things were done 'so much better in Germany'. Quite odd for a Pole who was being trained to fly and fight against that very nation?! - John Eacott

VMT for the update - extraordinary behaviour indeed in the circumstances, and I don't believe that he would have passed any realistic vetting procedure.:=

Jack

Walter603
20th Dec 2015, 06:11
I was very keen on the Link Trainer. I went to it whenever I was allowed and enjoyed "driving" that machine. Curiously, when I was settling down shortly afte the war, I became an "untrained" Link instructor at RAF Matching Green in Essex, and enjoyed myself completely with teaching and flying it myself.

The only 'gafa' I ever knew was the old gaffer sitting in the corner seat of the dear old English pub. I still miss the pubs, so now I'm a gaffer without one.

Fixed Cross
20th Dec 2015, 07:55
Danny - Reference your 7914.

With the greatest respect to your experience I feel that you do a serious injustice to the splendid Air Traffickers at Syerston (no, not Leeming) in the 60s.

No compass, no gyro procedure was always available and regularly practiced but, as I stated, I had a perfectly good gyro which was unaffected and could be selected to DG mode. It was only the flux detector unit which was rendered unreliable by the lightning strike. A subsequent ACR7 recovery with a fairly reliable heading reference was a more practical option.

Geriaviator
20th Dec 2015, 10:35
A warm Squadron welcome for the new boy
Post no. 13 from the memoirs of Tempest pilot Flt Lt Jack Stafford, DFC, RNZAF

ALL FLYING had been cancelled because of the weather, which had clagged right down. We entered the dispersal to find it packed tight with pilots, for another Typhoon squadron was paying us a visit. All heads turned towards us as we entered, for all knew it was my first “op”. Frank Murphy was standing at the door to greet us and he shook my hand enthusiastically. “How did it go?” “Good”, said Woe. “Piece of cake”. The intelligence officer stepped up and the noise in the room died down. “What did you see, Woe?” “Several ships in the port at Le Treport, one leaving the roadstead. Bit of movement around Boulogne, but most of the shipping was at Dieppe”. “Did you get much flak?” “Yes, quite a bit”, said Woe. “Dieppe was the heaviest, but they hosed us down quite a bit from all the other ports. Even got a bit on the coast”.

I stood there locked in amazement, my mouth open. Flak? What bloody flak? The CO of the visiting squadron must have noticed my obvious confusion and asked:”Did you see the flak, Staff?” My mouth had gone dry and almost inaudibly I answered no. He was smiling at me and at my answer he began to laugh, gales of good-humoured laughter rocked the room.

The goodwill towards me and my ready acceptance by all was infectious. Murph was killing himself laughing, he put a hand on my shoulder and said “Staff, you're a bloody beaut!” Without knowing what they were laughing about I joined in. Woe laughed, the intelligence officer laughed, everybody was in fits. Woe said: “He was watching my arse and he was doing it very well”. This produced more screams of laughter. It was just hilarious.

Danny42C
20th Dec 2015, 13:49
Fixed Cross,

Your loyalty to your former ATC comrades at Syerston does you nothing but credit, but I really can't let them get away with it as easily as that. You said (Blocking mine):
...Continued up above cloud and called for advice. Nothing practical as all suggestions required sight of known landmarks. Then realised that the stars might provide an answer...
So the Approach Controller knew of your predicament. He had the Duty Instructor by his side (or upstairs in Local, when a call from him (APP) that one of his (the DIs) chicks was in trouble would bring him (the DI) headlong down the stairs. Their contribution: "Nothing practical as all suggestions required sight of known landmarks" ....AT NIGHT ?

It was simply not good enough. Did your training Squadron CO (who would have been the OC Night) hear about this ? I can't imagine that he did, or all Hell would have let loose. I have vivid memories of a (seemingly) similar incident, when the chap's Squadron CO was after me with murder in mind !

Danny.

Danny42C
20th Dec 2015, 14:33
Geriaviator (your #7916) and Walter,
...Interesting to hear you had ground simulators for radar training, I had not heard of these...
In 1951 we had ground radar simulators for training our auxiliary Radar Ops. It was a mock-up of the equipment they had "down the hole" at Seaton Snook, where every Sunday they interpreted the radar returns from the CH towers at Danby Beacon and other sites.

At Thornaby, we had the old Coastal Command Operations block, which converted easily into a mock-up Sector Operations Room. In the centre large room was the plotting table, our Fighter Plotters with their croupier's rakes, each girl with a headset linking her to her "Op", the mock radars in a separate room behind and the trainee Fighter Controllers in the gallery above. It was quite convincing in full cry on an exercise.

Walter,
...I was very keen on the Link Trainer. I went to it whenever I was allowed and enjoyed "driving" that machine...
Walter, you can't mean that :ooh:! The Link was an instrument of Satan, it "flew" like no aircraft that ever was or ever will be and its only value was as a procedures trainer, IMHO.

Cheers, Danny.

Danny42C
20th Dec 2015, 15:30
Geriaviator,

This excerpt from my Post p.134 #2663 is on the same theme:
...Danny starts to earn his keep
Things go dark and I'm crushed down in my seat by "G" for a few moments, then I relax a bit and vision clears. Brakes in, we're in a 40-degree dive from a thousand feet, still with most of the 300 mph we picked up on the way down.

The sky looks like a dalmation dog, for light AA has been pumping away merrily for a minute or two. Surprised, it dawns on me that they're still firing at us. I feel quite indignant. Poor little me, what have I done to deserve being shot at at like this?

This dangerous reverie exasperates the battle-hardened Robbie behind. "Get weaving, Skipper", he roars, sees a gun position on the ground and gives it a long burst to distract the gunners from their aim. That wakens me up.

No time to ruminate - jink and get down on the deck as fast as you can! At this point I should explain that aircraft come out of the dive heading every which way, depending on where they were facing when they pressed the button, and that has been affected by the amount of "weathercocking" which they'd had to do on the way down. It was rather like a Red Arrow "bomb burst", only in sequence...

Danny.

Geriaviator
20th Dec 2015, 21:43
Danny

Maybe it was kindly Nature which blinded you to the showers of flying metal which whistled around you! All respect to the men like yourselves who flew through it unscathed, and the ones who were not so lucky.

Mind you, I think you're rather unkind to the Link which taught me a great deal. Fifty years ago two enthusiasts called Barney and Bill completely restored a WWII Link for our flying club and I spent many hours therein, the patient sighs of its pneumatic bellows matched by those of my long-suffering instructor as I wandered drunkenly around the "sky". It cost me 12s 6d per hour against the ADF-equipped Cherokee at £6 yes six pounds :ooh: and after its jerky response the real thing was easy. Well, less difficult.

Walter, we are eagerly waiting for your next instalment, please keep it rolling :)

smujsmith
20th Dec 2015, 21:49
Ha ha haaa .... Danny :D. Obviously the Reds sequencing leaves something to be desired. Fantastic revisiting the reality of why you earned those wings. I wish you, and yours, the best of Christmas times, and a huge lump sum payback from the taxman in the New Year.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/67c75842834bd426b365ecd419953652_zps79ea1e0a.jpg
Credit Patricia Forrest.

Have a great holiday.

Smudge :ok:

John Eacott
20th Dec 2015, 22:18
Mind you, I think you're rather unkind to the Link which taught me a great deal. Fifty years ago two enthusiasts called Barney and Bill completely restored a WWII Link for our flying club and I spent many hours therein, the patient sighs of its pneumatic bellows matched by those of my long-suffering instructor as I wandered drunkenly around the "sky". It cost me 12s 6d per hour against the ADF-equipped Cherokee at £6 yes six pounds :ooh: and after its jerky response the real thing was easy. Well, less difficult.

As an ATC cadet on 27(F) Chingford Squadron I, too, haunted the Link room to hiss and sigh my way around in the hope that my track scratched out on the Crab would match that of the underlying map. 53 years ago and it was all for free and to a 14 year old would-be pilot, priceless :ok:

Union Jack
20th Dec 2015, 22:52
As an ATC cadet on 27(F) Chingford Squadron I, too, haunted the Link room to hiss and sigh my way around in the hope that my track scratched out on the Crab would match that of the underlying map.

There must be a hereditary "link"....:uhoh:

Jack

Danny42C
20th Dec 2015, 23:33
Geriaviator and Walter,
...Maybe it was kindly Nature which blinded you to the showers of flying metal...
Or maybe simple stupidity:
"If you can keep your head, when all about you,
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you....."
....then you don't appreciate the gravity of the situation...

Regarding the Link, I suppose there's no accounting for taste ! But seriously, what do you two experts on it know about the Edmunds Trainer, which caused a few puzzled frowns on this Thread long ago ? (It was a bolt-on gubbins on the Link, apparently - Google leads to:
...Edmunds Trainers - RAF Commands RAF Commands | The meeting place for RAF Researchers (http://www.rafcommands.com) › Forum › General Category
22 Mar 2012 - 2 posts - ‎1 author Is anyone able to shed any light on "Edmunds Trainers"? RAF Long Newnton (Wiltshire) had a "Link Trainer and Edmunds Trainer" Building...
This elicited a response from our good comrade Petet, who is a researcher sans pareil (and has been particularly helpful to me [Pete, the RAFBF is £20 to the good, hope that's about right] and states inter alia: ... it was invented by F/O Morgan Rice Edmondes)...
By one of those amazing coincidences which you would not dare to invent, Wing Commander M.R. Edmondes was in 1945 the senior RAF Liaison Officer to Colonel Phillips, the Commandant of the Chemical Defence Research Establishment at Cannanore (on the Malabar coast, 150 mi N of Cochin). As I had a small Flight there to provide the air component, Wg Cdr Edmondes and I worked closely together, although he was not my CO as he was "outside the loop" (I was responsible direct to the SASO of 225 Group in Bangalore). I remember him as a charming and helpful friend, who was a pleasure to work with.

I'm sorry to say that my log tells me that I did three 30 min sessions on an Edmunds Trainer at OTU in August,'42, but I've absolutely no recollection of what it was or what I did, and later in 1945, of course, would have had no idea that the Wg Cdr was the inventor.

Danny.

John Eacott
21st Dec 2015, 00:06
Back to the previous discussion about compasses, I have an almost pristine copy of AP 1234 Volume 1, 1941 last amendment was number 5 dated Sept 1943. Dad's mate Len Coulstock owned it.

Anyway, in Chapter VIII it details 'Swinging Aircraft in the Air' which covers two pages. Not something to be done when in dire straits over enemy territory!

The details in the volume are fascinating, and it seems to have exercises similar to the exams posted by pulse1 complete with observations and charts. Charts of magnetic variation for 1937, magnetic dip for 1922 and horizontal magnetic force for the same year; who would be taught such stuff these days?

And as for the three pages on the Pioneer Magnesyn Compass; stuff of science fiction!

Walter603
21st Dec 2015, 01:05
Hans Hasenfus is the correct name that I well remember. See Union Jack's comments #7898, especially Percival Proctor where Hasenfus was reported comng to Australia in June/July 1947.

Danny42C
21st Dec 2015, 03:52
pulse1 (your #7919),

The key words here are:
...AIR OBSERVERS' NAVIGATION SCHOOLS' EXAMINATIONS...
Which lets us Twin-Winged Lords of the Air - or Drivers (Airframe), according to taste, - off the hook, I'm very glad to say. Had a quick run-through the question paper, felt faint and had to have a lie-down. Greatly increased respect for all "Flying A###'oles" from now on.

(Sign of the times: absolutely correct use of apostrophes. Sadly, today these still give a lot of trouble: the distinction between 'its' and 'it's' in particular is too much even for some PPRuNers, I'm sorry to say).

Danny.

Stanwell
21st Dec 2015, 05:09
Danny, I've worked it out.
It seems to me that, at birth, some people were issued with a big, heavy bag - full of apostrophes.
The instruction given to them was that they had to use them all up before they would be considered for entry to paradise.
So, any word ending with an 's' is a good place to lighten their load.

We had an orderly-room clerk who was a terrible offender in that regard.
We sneakily got to his typewriter and filed the apostrophe off it.
There was nearly a royal commission over that.

Danny42C
21st Dec 2015, 08:51
Stanwell,

I like your theory about apostrophes and the ingenious way you cut off the supply at source on the Orderly Room typewriter. A file can prove useful in all sorts of ways:

The designers of the control runs for our Wright Double Cyclones were unduly anxious about the possibility of a pilot closing the throttle completely while the mixture control (next door in the quadrant) was left leaned-out half-way forward. Accordingly they fitted a little spring loaded one-way catch on the throttle which allowed you to advance it past the mixture control, but if you then tried to retard it, the catch would engage the mixture lever amd draw it back with the throttle. It was a nice idea.

Only snag was that the optimum fuel-saving mixture position was about half-way along the quadrant, which by ill chance was exactly the same spot that you had your throttle when climbing in formation with a full load. As you were constantly jiggling the throttle to keep station, it would keep pulling the mixture back, and you had an extra, unwanted task in having to re-set the mixture every minute or two.

Clearly the catch was more trouble than it was worth; five minutes with a sharp file and it was in the bin. One little nuisance had been abated. A small victory !

Danny.

Geriaviator
21st Dec 2015, 11:49
A grim souvenir for the new fighter pilot
Post no. 14 from the memoirs of Tempest pilot Flt Lt Jack Stafford, DFC, RNZAF

AT THAT moment a ground crew member approached the dispersal. Murph went to meet him and returned with a jagged piece of steel in his hand, three or four inches long, all edges and points. It was grey-black in colour and it looked sinister, murderous and pitiless. “This was just removed from your aircraft's spinner, Staff”, he said. I took it silently and studied it, a chunk of German flak.

“Wouldn't look too good in your eye for a wart, Staff”, said one of the pilots. This initiated a dozen more smart remarks, most offering suggestions as to where else it might have been stuck. The laughter was away again. My jaw ached, my sides ached, for everything seemed so funny.

With all the squadrons stood down, everyone slowly drifted away to the mess. I was swollen with pride, for I felt that I was now a fighter pilot. Not much of a fighter pilot, but a fighter pilot just the same. Sure, it was only the smallest of small shows, but we had intruded into enemy occupied territory and returned.

It was the first step in my operational career. I was a fighter pilot in 486 Fighter Squadron, 11 Group, Fighter Command, RAF Tangmere. Sure I was proud! We went into the mess and I shouted everyone to a drink, and everyone shouted me. We ate. I was becoming drunk as we left the station in a couple of cars for The Ship, a favourite watering hole just outside Chichester. It was a lost night, but even now I remember how it started.

I treasured that piece of flak for many months. The war dragged on and the combat became grimmer and grimmer as the months passed. Such souvenirs lost their importance as life became less secure and more precarious. I soon lost that piece of flak. From this point Jack Stafford's memoirs take on a darker note as he sees his friends falling around him. As D-Day loomed the Typhoons of 486 Sqn increased their ground attack operations, specialising in train-busting with their four 20mm cannon. The Germans responded by mounting quadruple cannon on flat trucks, several in a train, so each aircraft attacked into four times its own firepower. The pilots then launched attacks from different directions, so splitting the defences. By D-Day the railways which should have carried reinforcements to Normandy were paralysed, but at terrible cost to the RAF.

In early 1944 Jack Stafford was posted to Hatfield as test pilot for de Havilland airscrew development. He remained there for several months before rejoining 486 (NZ) Sqn, by this time re-equipped with the Hawker Tempest to combat the V1 flying bombs. Our next post joins him on the south coast of England, where he would destroy eight V-1s between June 19 and August 29.

Chugalug2
21st Dec 2015, 12:06
Jack Stafford (courtesy geriaviator):-
“This was just removed from your aircraft's spinner, Staff”If you tried to fire a chunk of red hot jagged metal at high velocity into the spinner of a fast rotating propeller driven by a Napier Sabre, without disturbing the performance of either, I strongly suggest that it would not be possible. The CSU must have missed total destruction by a hair's breadth and therein the continued flight of his steed. No wonder he hung onto it for so long! It is a measure of the constant danger he and his comrades faced thereafter that it then lost all significance. It is only by such vignettes that we can hope to grasp the reality of that desperate period in our history.

Danny42C
21st Dec 2015, 13:19
Chugalug,
...If you tried to fire a chunk of red hot jagged metal at high velocity into the spinner of a fast rotating propeller driven by a Napier Sabre, without disturbing the performance of either, I strongly suggest that it would not be possible...
Very true, but if the shell casing fragment had travelled some distance it could have slowed to the point where it had just sufficient energy to penetrate the sheet metal of the spinner and then be stopped by the hydraulic "dome" of the CSU but be unable to damage it (I'm assuming a hydraulic prop), and remained trapped between.

When the "butterfly" tail fuse safety caps came off our wing bombs, they were quite often found jammed into the lower wing or flap, but, being so light, just stuck there and did no further damage.

(Just a guess). Cheers, Danny.

Chugalug2
21st Dec 2015, 14:02
Danny:- it could have slowed to the point where it had just sufficient energy to penetrate the sheet metal of the spinner and then be stopped by the hydraulic "dome" of the CSUVery true of course, but to me that still seems incredible. The spinner has a momentum of its own, propelled as it is by the aircraft. The shrapnel may have lost much of its initial velocity when the shell of which it was part had exploded, but would still have been subject to the laws of physics and retain some percentage of its original "oomph".

Stafford's spinner must have collided with this jagged hot mass of metal in that brief window of opportunity before the mass started accelerating again under the effect of gravity. I seem to recall that the danger in the London Blitz from being struck by falling debris from our own Anti Aircraft barrage was no inconsiderable part of the total hazard, as a life underwriter might have calculated. Hence the dubious value of our Prime Minister viewing proceedings from the Air Ministry roof...

ricardian
21st Dec 2015, 14:21
A search using Google produced this Edmonds Trainer (http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?12680-Edmunds-Trainers):
"The name of this device is usually mispelled as Edmunds or Edmonds; it was invented by F/O Morgan Rice Edmondes. There were a large number of gunnery training simulators in use throughout WWII This particular device was one of a number of 'dual purpose' synthetic trainers for gunnery and recognition.
It instructed fighter pilots in deflection shooting combined with aircraft recognition and range judging, using a standard Link trainer. This was fitted with a reflector sight (modified for the purpose) and a spotlight triggered by a firing a button on the control column. At the required distance from the Link, a 1:48 scale model aircraft was positioned 6.5 ft from the ground and mounted on a castored trolley. A 'deflection' graph was also positioned 3 ft from the floor.
On the floor in front of the 'aircraft' were painted a number of arcs of circles worked out from the pivot point from the Link. These were at intervals of 37.5 in (representing ranges from 150 yds to 600 yds at 50 yds increments).
The trainee flew the Link to ‘attack’ the model which then moved to simulate an aircraft under attack. When the pilot considered he was in range, he pressed his trigger in short bursts and the beam of light from the spotlight registered on the graph, the instructor immediately read off the range from the arcs on the floor and the errors shown on the graph. The instructor was in communication with the pilot, giving advice and corrrecting his aim throughout the simulation.
I think the prototype went to Grangemouth, and was intended for all Fighter Command OTUs, and Group I SFTS, (plus a few Gp.II).
A report described it as very effective and extremely simple to construct, though it required a fair amount of floor space"
Source: AIR20 /6058 Synthetic Training Devices, AIR2 /8785 Synthetic Training Committee (STC) reports.

Chugalug2
21st Dec 2015, 16:23
I have a feeling that Edmondes Trainers are a case of deja-vu all over again, as is this pic from the atlantikwall site of the Link/Edmondes Trainer building at RAF Long Newnton in Wiltshire:-

http://www.atlantikwall.co.uk/atlantikwall/e_w_long_newnton/11.JPG

This link repeats (or is the original info?) ricardian's quote, with pics of a Link Trainer and a Silloth one:-

https://rafww2butler.wordpress.com/useful-information/

harrym
21st Dec 2015, 17:05
Ref #7933 and earlier posts on this topic, my creaking memory has just recalled that the tech trade for this task was 'Compass Adjuster' and carried SNCO rank; no doubt they were also qualified for ground swings. Two of them flew with me on different occasions, one a Sgt and the other a F/Sgt.

harrym

Danny42C
21st Dec 2015, 17:52
Geriaviator (your #7938),
.... By D-Day the railways which should have carried reinforcements to Normandy were paralysed...
I've read somewhere that the panzer divisions which were in the Calais area needed 70 trains a day to reach Normandy quickly enough to drive us back into the sea. They managed only six.

Cheers, Danny.

Danny42C
21st Dec 2015, 19:19
Chugalug (your #7941),

If he had collected a "jagged hot mass of metal", then that would have come from a burst quite close, and he would have been luck to have got only one of them. I think it more likely to have been a case of a shell fragment falling from above; he simply flew into it and the forward speed of the Typhoon plus the rotational speed of the spinner were enough to drive it into the the sheet metal, but no more. As you say, one of the dangers of being on the streets during the 1941 Blitz was being struck by AA fragments coming down. It was for that reason that all the emergency services were issued with tin hats.

That winter I was on Deferred Service, waiting for the RAF to deign to take me in. We lived in Maghull, a village some eight miles North of Liverpool, but I worked in Southport, about 14 miles further out still. Coming home on many winter nights, there would be an air raid on in Liverpool. When that happened the "Ribble" bus driver was under orders to come no closer than ten miles from the city centre while the raid lasted; he simply stopped at that point: his passengers had the option of sitting it out with him, or getting out and walking. :*

As I had only two more miles to go, I took that option. Liverpool was ringed with AA batteries, and the Luftwaffe seemed to clear away North of the city after bombing along the line of the docks. Consequently, as we trudged along, there would be a son-et-lumière performance more or less overhead, and we could hear the faint whistle of the bits coming down and the clicks as they hit the roofs and pavements. We bowed our heads, shrugged and kept walking. In the morning, boys on their way to school would avidly harvest all the bits they found, much as they collected "conkers" in season. Oddly enough, I never heard of a casualty from this source, I suppose the pieces were pretty well spread out.

Even so, I was glad to reach my front door ! :ok:

Cheers, Danny.

Chugalug2
21st Dec 2015, 19:57
Danny, your Sang Froid and eagerness to get home rather than wait it out with the Ribble driver are an example to all we young wimps, though what the advantage of a bowed head served in the presence of falling shrapnel, I'm unclear. :confused:

The picture you paint of young Staff's escape is one of him flying so low that the Luftwaffe flak could not get a bead on him and thus had to resort to firing high. I wonder if that was in the vain hope of a hit from the falling shrapnel? Not nearly so vain as one might first think, it would seem. At least they hit him, though fortunately only at the cost of a new spinner it would seem.

harrym, it must have been a fairly frequent requirement (in the FE at least) for an airborne compass swing, if a new trade had to be created of Compass Adjuster. As has been pointed out, the habit of laying PSP in order to quickly create load bearing runways made the provision of a compass base at such an a/f problematic. Still sounds a desperate solution though, and presumably limited to crewed (ie multi-engined?) aircraft only. Even so, the necessary adjustments would have to be made at the compass itself, in the case of the P12 with a miniature radiator key for the four adjusters. Given the usual location of the compass on the aircraft, it would need much, "Excuse me, Sir, oh sorry, it won't take long, well not too long, well...".

Is that how you remember it Harry?

Danny42C
21st Dec 2015, 19:59
ricardian (your #7942) and Chugalug (your #7943),

Thank you for the detailed 'gen' on the Edmunds Trainer, but for me it is another case of the "Carlstrom Syndrome" (Chugalug knows what I mean): ie, I know I did 3x30 minutes on them, and I have a full description of what I must've done, but still have not the slightest trace of memory of them. From what I can see, all it did was to give practice in ranging only, whereas what a fighter pilot needs is training in deflection - but how this rig could be adapted for that purpose is simply beyond me.

Chugalug, one look at that building and 70+ years melt away. (Eheu, fugaces.....)

EDIT: It wasn't sang-froid so much as hunger - Mum would have a good hot meal waiting for me ! And it wasn't a bowed head so much as a craven cringe.

Danny.

GlobalNav
21st Dec 2015, 20:14
ricardian (your #7942) and Chugalug (your #7943),

Thank you for the detailed 'gen' on the Edmunds Trainer, but for me it is another case of the "Carlstrom Syndrome" (Chugalug knows what I mean): ie, I know I did 3x30 minutes on them, and I have a full description of what I must've done, but still have not the slightest trace of memory of them. From what I can see, all it did was to give practice in ranging only, whereas what a fighter pilot needs is training in deflection - but how this rig could be adapted for that purpose is simply beyond me.

Chugalug, one look at that building and 70+ years melt away. (Eheu, fugaces.....)

Danny.

Danny, every time you use a Latin phrase I have to go look it up. Quite an education you're giving me. Or should I say "revealing the education I didn't have"

Chugalug2
21st Dec 2015, 22:22
Danny:-
From what I can see, all it did was to give practice in ranging only, whereas what a fighter pilot needs is training in deflection - but how this rig could be adapted for that purpose is simply beyond me.From reading the blurb it seems there was an attempt to account for the deflection required. When the trainee pressed his trigger, a light would shine onto a deflection graph on the wall and thus showed the error (if any) resulting. I'm sure it was all rather primitive, driven no doubt like the link by pneumatics, but it would have enabled the gradual appreciation of the different lead required for the varying speed, range, and heading differences. It says that a report:-
described it as very effective and extremely simple to construct, though it required a fair amount of floor space.Danny, I've just been looking on Google maps at Colerne where I was based 1966/68. Rather like Carlstrom for you, it seems to have changed shape somewhat since I was there, but I very much doubt it.

Danny42C
22nd Dec 2015, 00:52
Smudge,

Inspired by your seasonal picture (it'll bring a lump to Chugalug's throat - and to others......:{),
and after considering all other possibilities, cannot improve on last year's effort:

(drum roll.....)

Now, in my capacity as Old Man in The Corner,

A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all our PPRuNers and Readers....

with a Special Thanks to our Moderators, for leaving us alone to play

From Danny and Family.

MPN11
22nd Dec 2015, 10:31
And in response to Danny42C's last input ...

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/P1010384.jpg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/P1010384.jpg.html)

Danny42C
22nd Dec 2015, 16:12
MPN11,

Your colourful entry will lift all our spirits ! (Bags I the persona of the Court Fool - back left, with my cap and bells)......

GlobalNav (your 7949),
...Danny, every time you use a Latin phrase I have to go look it up. Quite an education you're giving me. Or should I say "revealing the education I didn't have"...
Now, no more of that sort of talk here ! It was merely my fate, as a snotty little boy of the left-footed persuasion, to be sent to a Roman Catholic boarding school, where for seven years I had Latin beaten into me (and some of it has stuck). Otherwise, I would wager that my education was no better than yours, and in any case it doesn't matter here - we all take our places in this our Cybercrewroom on equal terms. :ok:

That said, a Merry Christmas, Danny.

Geriaviator
22nd Dec 2015, 16:19
http://s20.postimg.org/icsu5g17x/vultee_sleigh.jpg

Taphappy
22nd Dec 2015, 20:59
Merry Christmas and A Happy and Prosperous New Year to all who participate in this wonderful thread.

Walter603
23rd Dec 2015, 06:18
Yes Danny, I did mean it. I liked the Link Trainer.

Walter603
23rd Dec 2015, 07:00
We had fun, too, on our off-duty days, which mostly concerned "the pictures", shown in the recreation hangar, concert parties provided by E.N.S.A., the professional organisation set up to cater for the Services all over the country and overseas, and which produced many embryo actors who later became famous in post-war years. Of course, we also downed prodigious quantities of beer and other alcohol in the Sergeants' Mess! One of our more hilarious adventures occurred during very bad weather, early in 1942. I think it may have been late January or early February. Anyway, the snow lay thick on the runways, as it had for many days, in spite of all the "clearing parties" sent out with shovels, brooms, barrows and other tools. I hasten to add that the "parties" included ourselves! We ha d to make way on the ground for our own air training.

Three or four of us felt we had had quite enough of the unpleasant weather. It was not only snowing, or threatening to snow, but there was a fairly thick fog. It was certain that we would do no flying that day. It was reasonably certain that we would not be missed, there being no specific ground training scheduled for our Course. We were reasonably sure that we would be put on to some kind of tedious work if we stayed around - either snow shovelling, cleaning hangars or other manual labour.

We finished our breakfasts and craftily slunk away from the busy part of the aerodrome buildings, making our way circuitously to the far side of the airfield (quite a long walk, incidentally). Way, way over the back, we came to the perimeter fence, a simple wire arrangement that wasn't meant to do much more than keep the neighbouring farmer's sheep from trespassing onto the airfield, to the danger and detriment of both the sheep and the trainee aircrew. Youth and fitness saw us in a rosy state, but getting fairly wet from the combined effects of the snow around our feet, and the dampness of the fog clinging to our clothes.

We climbed over the fence, with one small mishap by Harry, who twisted his ankle and limped for the rest of the day. Trudging along the country road towards Tadcaster, we were fortunately placed to stop the local bus that came along after about 20 minutes, moving very cautiously through the thick ridges of snow and ice.

"Hop on, lads", called the driver encouragingly, and we wasted no time. However, the next mishap occurred very quickly. We hadn't travelled more than a quarter of a mile, when in spite of the driver's care the bus slid sideways into the ditch at the side of the road. He was quite able to look after his own affairs, nobody was hurt, and we soon started off on foot along the road. It was a long way to Tadcaster railway station, but at last we arrived and eventually caught a train to York, where we were deposited just before lunchtime. Not a profitable morning, so far!

Seeing the sights of York meant visiting several of the pubs, playing darts against the locals, having pies and sandwiches for lunch, and going to the cinema. It was a very cold day I remember, but nice to be away from Air Force duty for a change, although we all felt a little guilty about being absent without leave.

The journey back to Base was very tedious. Cancelled and delayed trains meant that we did not leave York until late in the evening, and we had a slow crawl back to Tadcaster, mainly due to air raids not far away. I can't remember the final part of the journey to Church Fenton - we may have scrounged a lift on an Air Force truck, I think. We went through the main gate just about midnight, and were glad to sink into our "cots" shortly afterwards.

The next morning, we were mortified to learn that, shortly after our illicit departure from the Mess, a "Tannoy" announcement had been made to the effect that due to the adverse weather conditions, all aircrew had been given leave for the day! We could have walked off the Base, taken regular transport into York, and saved ourselves much trouble and effort.

Wander00
23rd Dec 2015, 09:52
Thanks so much for all these wonderful memories. I have learn a huge amount and stand in awe of our predecessors.


A Happy Christmas and a peaceful 2016 to all

Danny42C
23rd Dec 2015, 10:25
Walter,
...Yes Danny, I did mean it. I liked the Link Trainer...
Ah well, no accounting for taste, I suppose. Each to his own !
and
......The next morning, we were mortified to learn that, shortly after our illicit departure from the Mess, a "Tannoy" announcement had been made to the effect that due to the adverse weather conditions, all aircrew had been given leave for the day! We could have walked off the Base, taken regular transport into York, and saved ourselves much trouble and effort...
Could there be a more perfect example of 'Sod's Law' in practice ? :E

All the compliments of the season, Danny.

harrym
23rd Dec 2015, 14:35
Yes Chugalug there were many PSP airfields in SE Asia at that time (indeed Changi's runway was not replaced by tarmac until 1950/51), so there was plenty of employment for the trade of compass adjuster. As for how & when the actual adjustments were carried out, I'm afraid my memory is a blank.

The Dak's main compass was mounted in the 'V' of the windscreens being either an E2 or an upended variant of the standard RAF P type viewed through an adjustable mirror. Looking at the (liberated) E type in front of me now, there are two small holes at the top through which triangular corrector keys could be inserted, but with what degree of finesse is debateable; for it was carried in a thee-cornered cradle of short bungee cords, which would perhaps have introduced errors of their own? As a somewhat off-topic point of interest, the E type was a great survivor; it was the VC10's standby compass, and for all I know is still performing the same task elsewhere.

Reverting to the Dak, I would (again) recommend anyone to the excellent Haynes manual on the old bird. From its pictures the interior has changed little over the years; some of the flight instruments have been anglicised, and there is one blooper describing the parking brake knob as the tail wheel lock, but overall it is a great product.

Geriaviator
23rd Dec 2015, 14:42
http://s20.postimg.org/pvqom1ulp/Tempest_Mk_V_486_Sqn_RNZAF_at_Castle_Camps_1944.jpg

Intercepting the flying bombs
Post no. 15 from the memoirs of Tempest pilot Flt Lt Jack Stafford, DFC, RNZAF

IN APRIL 1944 I rejoined the squadron at Newchurch, an advanced landing ground about 15 miles south-west of Dover. Three months earlier they had re-equipped with the wonderful Hawker Tempest, one of the very few aircraft fast enough to catch the new-fangled V1 flying bombs.

Flying the Tempest was not easy at first, for you could never take it for granted. It choked you with exhaust fumes unless you donned your oxygen mask before startup, it roared, it spat and it snarled, it swung violently on takeoff, it stalled without warning and it was almost impossible to recover from an established spin. But once you became competent you came to appreciate its outstanding qualities, and when you became expert you loved it, for it was a dream. At low level nothing could touch it, it responded like an angel to the slightest pressure on the controls at high speed, it zoomed like a rocket and it dived like a falcon on a duck. Its four cannon gave it devastating firepower and ground targets disintegrated in a well-aimed burst. We could not ask for a better machine to tackle the flying bomb.

My first flying bomb interception took place on June 16, 1944, and was a total disaster. I caught up to the bomb but while shooting my cannons jammed. I was almost shot down by our own flak, which was totally disorganised, firing constantly and badly, endangering our own fighters. On June 19 I shot down my first flying bomb and between June 16 and July 31, I shot down eight, while recording 56 patrols. Between July 31 to August 26 I shot down one further bomb while recording a further 30 patrols. During this period I also carried out intruder attacks in France on ground targets and fighter sweeps.

This was not a notable score. On our squadron Ginger Eagleson, Jim McCaw and Ray Cammock had scores around the 20 mark. Ginger had joined 486 Sqn with me, Jim was our flight commander and Ray had done a tour of duty in Africa before joining 486. Three Squadron had several pilots who scored around 30. Several Mosquito pilots flying at night scored around 50.

From the advent of the flying bomb the British defence forces moved quickly. Anti-aircraft guns were concentrated on the south coast and a balloon barrage was erected across Southern London to give protection. This concentrated flak was very effective and the balloons played their part. The area between the flak and the balloon barrage was left to the fighter aircraft. We were free to make our interceptions and engage the bombs without being subjected to interference. We patrolled a couple of thousand feet higher than the anticipated height of the intruding bombs and control kept us well informed of their imminent arrival. We would be vectored to the expected position where the bomb would cross the coast and were given a perfect countdown on the arrival of the enemy. Control was always totally accurate and we would see the flak barrage that met the bomb and heralded its position.

As soon as any of the missiles cleared the flak we would make our attack, starting with a long diving turn at full revs and boost to bring us into the best position to engage. The speed of our targets would vary at times but usually they would cross the channel at around 350mph and by using up their fuel and so lightened would attain around 400mph when we met them. In our diving attack we would reach a speed of between 400 and 450mph. This gave us two or three minutes to catch them before they reached London.

It should be remembered that the V1 flying bomb carried a warhead of 2000 lb of high explosive. At 430mph the Tempest was travelling some 170 yards per second. You don’t need to be Einstein to calculate that in the event of a bomb exploding the pilot had between one and two seconds to evade the blast, depending on the distance at which he opened fire. Consider also that the blast will move in all directions, back towards the pursuing aircraft as well as up and down. No wonder there were so many scorched Tempests sitting around the airfield at times.

Ian Burgess-Barber
23rd Dec 2015, 16:14
Geriaviator/ Jack Stafford

"No wonder there were so many scorched Tempests sitting around the airfield at times."

I say again, What courage - that is breathtaking - I did not realise that they blew them up! I had thought that they tipped them out of level flight by putting their wingtip under the wing of the V1 YLSNED

Seasons Greetings to all from a very windy Ireland (just had a gust of 84 mph on the Atlantic coast) - Fasten your seat belts everyone - it's going to be a bumpy night

Ian BB

Chugalug2
23rd Dec 2015, 19:59
IBB, quite agree about the cold courage required to keep closing with and firing at a 1000kg flying bomb, that as Stafford explains was continuously accelerating through the A/A barrage, then the fighter patrol area and, finally the balloon barrage before reaching its target. As with all new threats, tactics to deal with it evolved and some success as you say was achieved by aerodynamically toppling its gyros:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-1_flying_bomb

When V-1 attacks began in mid-June 1944, the only aircraft with the low-altitude speed to be effective against it was the Hawker Tempest (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Tempest). Fewer than 30 Tempests were available. They were assigned to No. 150 Wing RAF (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=No._150_Wing_RAF&action=edit&redlink=1). Early attempts to intercept and destroy V-1s often failed, but improved techniques soon emerged. These included using the airflow over an interceptor's wing to raise one wing of the V-1, by sliding the wingtip to within 6 in (15 cm) of the lower surface of the V-1's wing. If properly executed, this manoeuvre would tip the V-1's wing up, overriding the gyros and sending the V-1 into an out-of-control dive. At least sixteen V-1s were destroyed this way (the first by a P-51 piloted by Major R. E. Turner of 356th Fighter Squadron on 18 June).but the vast majority of the 1000 or so destroyed air-to-air was by gunfire. There were never enough Tempests and every other type that could get the required performance wrung out of it (including the first Meteors) was utilised. Brave men all, as you say.

HarryM, many thanks for the confirmation of the ubiquity of PSP runways in the FE. You mentioned Changi, and the original NW/SE Japanese runway of dubious LCN (given the way that POWs were want to greatly increase the proportion of sand to cement when able to do so undetected) inevitably snagged its first victim. Unfortunately this was following liberation an Allied DC-4 that sank up to its axles. The remedy of course was PSP, which was still there in my day (mid 60s) serving as the East and West Dispersals.

Walter, we lacked the initiative shown by you and your colleagues when snow closed the Oakington runway in December 1962. Swathed in greatcoats, scarves, gloves, and flying boots we 5FTS students were armed with shovels and picks to clear half the length and half the width of its layers of ice and snow. It was of some consolation that it finally allowed Wg Co Flying to get airborne in a Vampire. It was of even greater consolation that it served insufficient for his landing, as he careened through our slush filled part, thence into the uncleared part, and finally into the barrier that ATC had thoughtfully raised for him. Our Varsity's were thereafter flown off to Wyton (which had of course been black-top throughout), and we MT'd to and from there until Mother Nature put things right again.

Finally, Season's Greetings to all who inhabit our Crewroom in the Cloud, especially to our senior contributors still telling the tale of "Gaining an RAF Pilots Brevet in WWII" and putting them to good use thereafter. Thank you Gentleman all!

smujsmith
23rd Dec 2015, 23:02
Jenkins,

Never seen it in the Welsh language, Happy Christmas to you too. May I join in sending Seasons greetings to all who lurk, dwell or imbibe in this most accommodating of crew rooms. As a native of the West Midlands can I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a prosperous and happy New Year, Bab !!!!!! As they say.

See you all in 2016

Smudge :ok:

DHfan
23rd Dec 2015, 23:53
I haven't managed to come up with a successful google search phrase yet but there's a photograph in at least one of my books showing a Mosquito that was far too close to an exploding V1. There's no fabric at all on the rudder so I daren't think what the sharp end looks like. It still got back to base though.


Seasons Greetings to all.

Danny42C
24th Dec 2015, 01:08
Geriaviator,

What with the many demands made on senior citizens' time and patience on festive occasions such as these, I have not yet been able to give your tour-de-force (#7954) the close attention it so richly deserves. Obviously a supreme example of the art of "Photobucket" (of which I have heard much but know nowt), I note:

It has been skilfully composed to show the VV in its natural (##se-dragging) mode of flight, ergo an A-31. It was one of the antipodean variety, as evidenced by the obese white centre of the roundel, and it bears the markings of 12 Sqdn, RAAF. Santa is demonstrating the innate stability of the beast ("Look, Daddy - No Hands !...Look, Daddy - No Teeth !) The aircraft is in its default condition (filthy) and the Second Man has been dumped (pity, he was never of any use, but it's nice to have someone to talk to).

If the USAAC could "put a bomb in a pickle-barrel from 20,000 ft", then Santa should be able to do the same with the goodies from fifty ! Bit low for a dive, though, so accuracy would suffer.

Elementary, my dear Watson !

The Tempest is one big, ugly brute, but I would have liked to have had a go (much like a P-47, I would have thought).

--------------------------------


JENKINS (your #7962......well, I suppose a Chicken Run is better than the Dog House),
...Glad to see, Danny, that in your #7953 you did not specify the Jesuits, for then I would have started to worry. All that trust which I placed in you during my FTS student days...
So you were at Leeming sometime between '67-'72 ? (or Linton '62-'64 ?). I only hope we were worthy of that trust - not like some I could name.

We were in the shadow of the great Jesuit bastion of Stonyhurst College (Clitheroe), where I suppose they beat you just as hard with much the same implement as our strap, but graced it with the Latin name of ferula. We were so far below them on the social radar that a request for a First XV fixture would have met with the classic reply that Beaumont is supposed to have got when making the same request to Eton ("What is Beaumont ?"). Beaumont hit back with: "Beaumont is what Eton was - a school for Catholic gentlemen". Or so the story goes.

Wiki tells me that Stonyhurst hauled down the flag and let the young ladies in in 1999. The Christian Brothers were forbidden by their Statutes from so doing, which I imagine was one reason why they closed in 1984.

Nadolig Happus.....and Nollaig Shona to you, too !

Merry Christmas both, Danny.

Danny42C
24th Dec 2015, 02:36
Chugalug (reverting to your #7946),
...The picture you paint of young Staff's escape is one of him flying so low that the Luftwaffe flak could not get a bead on him and thus had to resort to firing high. I wonder if that was in the vain hope of a hit from the falling shrapnel? Not nearly so vain as one might first think, it would seem. At least they hit him, though fortunately only at the cost of a new spinner it would seem...
Our limited experience was that, although Wiki tells me the Bofors type 40mm had a range of 24,000 ft and went up to 41,000 ft (naturally, not both at the same time !), the lethal (for the aircraft) range from an exploding shell was relatively small. This goes for all aeriel explosions, and accounts for cases (like the famous film clip of a Spitfire (?) flying into the fireball of a V1 which he has just shot down) where the attacker is unscathed. Of course, if the shell hits you and explodes, that's game, set and match.

When you think of the tiny "timer" in the fuse of a 40mm round, and the muzzle velocity of the gun, and the fact that the range is changing so fast, it's a bloomin' miracle that the Gunners can get a burst anywhere near you (but they did !). There was an occasion in Burma (I think it was on one of the "Chindit" drops), where a Colonel (OC the grateful recipients) marvelled at the Daks "flying steadily on into withering fire - he had never seen anything so gallant" (he wrote, recommending gongs ad lib). What he (and the pilots) didn't know that the bursts were ahead and 2-300 ft below the aircraft, but because of the angle he was looking at them (head on from down below), an optical illusion was being created.

In Jack's case, IMHO, it is possible that the bursts were above, and the bits were coming down on him. But then, it is more than likely that I'm talking nonsense; we need a Gunner !

I did not know that compasses could be "swung" in the air - just shows you're never too old to learn ! :ok:

With all the compliments of the Season,

Danny.

John Eacott
24th Dec 2015, 03:12
I did not know that compasses could be "swung" in the air - just shows you're never too old to learn ! :ok:

With all the compliments of the Season,

Danny.

Just for you, Danny: all the way from 1942, with the sepia paper scanned to look like new ;)

(Mind you, I thought you old codgers would have read AP 1234 during training? Hmmmm....)

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/7400-1/Airborne+compass+swing+1.jpeg

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/7403-1/Airborne+compass+swing+2.jpeg

Then there are the instructions for Compass swinging when afloat, the effects of swinging for tail wheel aircraft (horizontal displacement of lower pole), simplified method, Coefficient method, ..... my brain hurts just reading about it ;)

pulse1
24th Dec 2015, 08:28
As it was my friend Frank who started this discussion about swinging compasses whilst airborne I feel that I should point out that his actual words to me were something like "sort of compass swing in the air".

Thanks JE for posting the full instructions. We are required to carry out a compass swing on our aircraft before the next Permit renewal and I will suggest that we use this method. With a couple of ex fast jet warriors in the group it should be a piece of cake.:E

MPN11
24th Dec 2015, 09:17
In Jack's case, IMHO, it is possible that the bursts were above, and the bits were coming down on him. But then, it is more than likely that I'm talking nonsense; we need a Gunner !
Sadly my father is unable to contribute, as he has long departed to the Great AA Battery in the sky, but he spent almost the entire War on AA in the UK [mainly Heavy AA, I believe] apart from a brief foray into France in July 44 [where he was soon slightly wounded and casevaced back to UK - where he stayed for the rest of the War].

To my regret, he never really 'mentioned the War', but then his was a fairly small, and relatively safe and undistinguished, part of the whole. Manning, and subsequent presumably commanding, 3.7" AA batteries in SE England had its hazards, but they were minimal compared with the risks millions of others faced [including civilians in cities].

Peppering the skies and streets with shrapnel, causing hazard to small boys walking home ... hmmmm. :O

Fareastdriver
24th Dec 2015, 09:36
when snow closed the Oakington runway in December 1962

In the previous year (1961), same place, we used Vampires with their angled down jet pipes as snow blowers. As we had stacks of them some would have a pilot in and some would be pushed around by tractors.

When a suitably wide strip had been cleared the Wg Co Flying, possibly the same one, took off for a circuit and landed. This was probably why he was so confident about it the following year.

At Honington somebody had the idea that a Victor might act as a good snow blower so one was set up. A massive towing tractor pulled the Victor onto the runway and they started shifting the snow in massive amounts. The pilots, unfortunately, overdid the throttles. The tractor lost its grip, the Victor went forward under near take off power, the tractor went backwards off the runway into the snow and turned over.

They sent out trucks to buy every shovel in Suffolk and it was back to lines of people.

The biggest problem, however, was Air Traffic Control followed by others:

SATCO would come into work, drive up and down the runway and declare it unusable because of snow.

The Airfield Fire section would drive up and down the runway and declare it usable because of snow.

OC Operations Wing would then drive up and down the runway and declare it unusable because of snow.

The Station Commander would drive up and down the runway and declare it unusable because of snow.

You now had at least sixteen lines of compressed ice which was brush and snow blower proof and required physical chipping with a shovel to get it off. It wasn't until one of our Canadian pilots, who knew a bit about the subject, fronted up at the Station Commander's office and told him what he thought about it.

After that the runway was banned until clearing operations started.

MPN11
24th Dec 2015, 09:51
Fareastdriver ... pretty much what happened at Waddington in 82[?] ... much traffic on the runway, including the bowser-mounted blades. The latter didn't clear the snow completely [and it was still shovelling it down], so every pass just compacted ... and compacted ... and compacted. And the sides of the runway acquired 2' high snow/ice banks!

Using every bit of snow-clearing kit we possessed (including the dreaded MRDs) and the valuable loan of Scampton's RolBa machine, we eventually got a questionably usable strip which [in theory] made us operational.

ISTR spending over a week out there, arguing with OC Eng Wg :D

Warmtoast
24th Dec 2015, 10:29
To Danny and all the other contributors to this wonderful thread - A Very Happy Christmas!


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Naughty%20Fairey%20on%20Xmas%20Tree%20-%20Captioned_zpspcrmib9q.jpg

Geriaviator
24th Dec 2015, 17:07
Glad you liked the sleigh mod Danny, of course there's no second man, Santa Mod. #25-12-2015 specifies removal of rear seat to create cargo hold. This also results in tail down attitude due to excessive aft CG :rolleyes:

Jack Stafford has more to say about Tempest and V1 attacks in his next two posts. By the way, he and a comrade downed an Me262 jet fighter on Christmas Day 1944.

May we all enjoy a happy and peaceful Christmas, while remembering our Service personnel still in peril far to the East.

Danny42C
24th Dec 2015, 21:12
John (your #7968),
...(Mind you, I thought you old codgers would have read AP 1234 during training? Hmmmm....)...
Wasn't that the blue book which opened with a picture captioned with "Man is not Lost" ?
Sir, you jest ! Just look at the requirements:


(i) Calm air conditions.

What - in the UK ?

(ii) A visible Sun whose altitude is preferably less than 45°

Maybe.

(iii) Sufficient view of the ground to permit pin-pointing of the aircraft.


Second bit might be difficult.


(iv) Positions for the Astro Compass in the aircraft which provide an adequate view of the Sun on all cardinal and quadrantal Courses.


Please. Sir, what's an Astro Compass ? (never seen one).


(v) A watch keeping GMT.

In your dreams !


(vi) One Navigator in addition to the Pilot.


We had unfortunate experiences with one or two Navigators.
(cf my Post p.132 #2630 this Thread)


(vii) Automatic Controls.

They would have been nice - but not for the likes of us !


All of which illustrates why Chapter VIII of AP1234 was of little interest to single-engine, mostly single-seat drivers. Anyway, consider Christopher Columbus. He didn't know where he was going when he set out, didn't know where he was when he got there, and didn't know where he'd been when he got back. He made out all right, and so did we (with or without AP1234 !):ok:

All the best for the Festive Season ! Danny.

EDIT: (your #7975) My eye was caught by:
...Among the other types were Twin Mustang...
Had to look it up on Wiki. Worth the effort. D.

North American XP-82 Twin Mustang 44-83887.Color.jpg
XP-82 prototype
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/North_American_XP-82_Twin_Mustang_44-83887.Color.jpg/300px-North_American_XP-82_Twin_Mustang_44-83887.Color.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:North_American_XP-82_Twin_Mustang_44-83887.Color.jpg)XP-82 prototype

Ormeside28
24th Dec 2015, 21:16
A. Very Happy Christmas and "Good" 2016 to all fellow members of the great Crewroom. My last flying Christmas was as captain of the duty Shack at Gan in 1961. The local chieftain gave a turtle to the officers mass but nobody had the heart to kill it, so we launched it into the lagoon at midnight. Happy days!

Danny42C
24th Dec 2015, 22:58
Fareastdriver (your #7971),
...The pilots, unfortunately, overdid the throttles. The tractor lost its grip, the Victor went forward under near take off power, the tractor went backwards off the runway into the snow and turned over...

Exactly the same thing happened when I was at Linton in '63 (?) In our case, we had a sled with two Derwents blowing great sheets of ice off the pan, it was pushed along by a 2,500 gal bowser. The Derwents started to push the bowser backwards, but luckily the sled operator slammed the high pressure cocks shut before the bowser hit anything important.

It is vitally important to have a SATCO so smooth-tongued that he can convince OC(F) that the best thing to do with UK snow is to wait until it melts of its own accord. Canadian snow, I'm told, is simply rolled flat, fir branches are put in to show the runway edges, ashes spread on the surface to give a grip, and normal service resumed. More snow ? - just roll it in on top of the first lot.

At Geilenkirchen around '60, snow fell on a Monday (I think), SATCO managed to get OC(F) to leave it alone till Friday, then OC(F)'s nerve broke, they started, did £2000's worth of damage to the runway lights, it rained over the weekend, all snow gone Monday. Verb.Sap.

You canna win ! :*

Danny.

Walter603
24th Dec 2015, 23:51
Thanks for your comments and compliments Chugalug. I find it surprising that I can sit back and laugh at our discomfort of those days. It's far from an easy job to clear snow and ice on airfields. I wouldn't last 5 minutes trying to do that at my age now.

Geriaviator
25th Dec 2015, 10:00
Get in close if you want to kill a V1
Post no. 16 from the memoirs of Tempest pilot Flt Lt Jack Stafford, DFC, RNZAF
MY TECHNIQUE for attacking the V1 was very simple and basic. I attempted to close from astern, get within 2-300 yds of the target and fire with no deflection. The formidable armament of four 20mm cannons should do the rest. At times the bomb would blow up and we were forced to fly through the blast and debris, as previously mentioned. Pilots were killed on such occasions but the Tempest was one tough aircraft and took a lot of punishment.

In my own case I just fired at the entire unmanned aircraft but seemed to hit the jet unit or part of the control surfaces. Sometimes a wing would be hit and the bomb would spin into the ground and explode. I did have several explode in front of me without serious consequences. Occasionally the gyro controlling the bomb would be hit and the missile would perform the most impressive and entertaining aerobatics before hitting the earth and exploding, usually in open country.

Speed was a requirement for success and the Tempest had the most magnificent performance. At this low altitude it was supreme. Determination from the pilot was imperative, for you had to chase and close regardless to obtain success. Any hesitation during the attack rendered the operation impotent, but the intrepid obtained and deserved victory.

All success was to a certain extent a lottery. If you were flying when the bombs came over you had a chance, if unlucky you could fly many tedious patrols and see nothing. We flew in pairs and the leading aircraft got the first chance at the target. No 2 had to wait, unless several came over together. While not often difficult to catch with a Tempest, the V1s were a minimal target, difficult to hit and destroy, and they were always dangerous. Pilots considerate of their own safety were not among the successful. As always, fortune favours the brave.

During the short period of the major V1 attacks, 486 Sqn had three pilots killed and several badly injured as a result of intercepting the bombs. Some of these, such as Kevin McCarthy, became the patients of the famous New Zealander, Dr. Archibald McIndoe, whose incredible medical skill would pioneer burns surgery. Others suffered major injuries which cancelled their flying future. From memory I think 17 Tempests were lost.

Our desire was to destroy the bomb in the air and our job was to defend the defenceless on the ground. I felt a sensation of virtue while engaged in these operations, I felt like a defender of the innocent, the knight in shining armour. It was different when intruding over Germany, where I felt I was an intruder, almost a violator. Despite this, flying over the land of the enemy with its increased danger was always very exciting, nerves on edge, an unbelievable buzz but still a trespass.

MPN11
25th Dec 2015, 10:06
"I'm dreaming of a white Christmas ..." Well, it was around July '83 in this case, in the depths of what was reputed to have been the Falklands' worst winter since WW2. Howling winds, heavy snow and temperatures well below 0ºc even before you added wind-chill.

RAF Stanley was decidedly non-Op, although our trusty F-4s still had to hold QRA in case our airspace was infringed by "them". They could probably get airborne, as the runway had largely been cleared, BUT ... recovering them was a different issue, as all the 5 RHAG installations were covered with snow/ice from the earlier activity on the rw. And so it was "All hands to the pumps", or more accurately shovels and pickaxes, as almost the whole Stn went out to clear the accumulations so that at least a couple of the RHAGs might work. The wind howled [40 kts rings a bell] and people were literally being blown over, or went skating involuntarily on the ice, as the clearance task proceeded.

As a parallel activity, I had to take one of our ATC Landrovers down to the Public Jetty to collect a new controller who had just disembarked [by landing craft] from the good ship SS Uganda. Hurling his kit into the back, we drove back to ATC at a modest pace in 4WD, skidding and sliding all over the 'roads' under a black cloud base and with the snow still 'persisting' down. Somewhat wide-eyed, our new ATCO was provided with a cup of coffee in the Tower to thaw some of his peripheries. Then, with the sort of cheerful smile a SATCO uses when breaking bad news, I said, "OK, Nigel, leave your kit here and grab a shovel ... we're going snow-clearing."

The next couple of hours out there must still be engraved forever in his memory.

"Welcome to RAF Stanley" :cool:

Danny42C
25th Dec 2015, 21:18
MPN11,
...Then, with the sort of cheerful smile a SATCO uses when breaking bad news, I said, "OK, Nigel, leave your kit here and grab a shovel ... we're going snow-clearing"...
I think the "we" may have given the wrong impression here (I take it that your part in the operation may have been strictly in the technical-advisory and supervisory nature ?)
...The next couple of hours out there must still be engraved forever in his memory...
The iron of that miserable and thankless task has been driven into my soul so deep that it will never leave me. :eek:

Happy New Year,

Danny.

Chugalug2
26th Dec 2015, 08:53
Jack Stafford (c/o Geriaviator):-
I felt a sensation of virtue while engaged in these operations, I felt like a defender of the innocent, the knight in shining armour. It was different when intruding over Germany, where I felt I was an intruder, almost a violator. Despite this, flying over the land of the enemy with its increased danger was always very exciting, nerves on edge, an unbelievable buzz but still a trespass.An interesting quote, and very much what this thread is about. Squadron histories, history books, films even, don't tend to reveal to us these personal reflections. Was this the general feeling of fighter pilots in WWII? That in their own skies they were defenders of the innocent, but in the enemy's ones they were as robbers in the night?

It would never have occurred to me that one strapped in to a Spitfire with a different attitude, depending upon whether one was to fight over Kent in the BoB or over France on a Rhubarb, other than I suppose the possibility that bailing out would have led to a return to the fray in the former but incarceration in the latter.

Danny42C
26th Dec 2015, 10:14
Chugalug,

This is an interesting one. I had scruples (but you had to shut them out of your mind), but of a different kind. When we were on our "bread and butter" task ("A.S.C." [Army Support Close] in my log), which meant digging-out dug-in Jap troops, then obviously that was all right.

But when you had to bomb the riverside buildings of some Burmese village, because Intelligence "knew" that the Japs were using them for daytime storage of war supplies (which would be moved North in barges during the night), then all depended on how firm was the "know". It might well be that I was killing innocent men, women and children, whose only misfortune it was to have been in the wrong place at the wrong time, for no purpose (and we have had recent cases of questionable "intelligence").

As I've said: "the innocent must suffer with the guilty". C'ést la guerre.

Danny.

Chugalug2
26th Dec 2015, 19:26
Indeed Danny, and unless one has been in that position it is not appropriate to make sweeping judgements of those who have found themselves faced with such dilemmas. There is a tendency these days to make such judgements though, in particular of the RAF Bomber Command's night bombing offensive in WWII.

The one thing that we can be certain of is that we in turn will be censored by those in the future armed with smart weapons that are claimed to differentiate between the innocent and the guilty. Notwithstanding that, they in turn will be condemned, and so on...

The WWI generals are condemned for the terrible slaughter suffered under their leadership, while we celebrate the aerial combat in the air as being likened to a duel. Given that the idea was to get on the tail of your opponent, thus effectively shoot him in the back, I have always found that to be a dubious honour. The fact is that warfare has always been shaped by the prevailing technology, be it gunpowder, railways, automatic weapons, or aviation. It simply increases the scope to kill ever more people and no doubt once developed, the death star will be able to wipe out an entire planet.

So let us be united in the condemnation of war and realistic enough to accept that it will always be with us. It has shaped the human race through the generations, and will continue to do so when we boldly go where no man has gone before... what will not change is that the innocent (whoever they might be) will suffer along with the guilty (again, whoever they might be).

Geriaviator
26th Dec 2015, 20:03
Chug and Danny,
I'm glad you too recognise the sensitive man behind these memoirs. Jack Stafford's delightful writing combines vivid memories of youth with the maturity of the years. I am moved by his gradual darkening of tone reflecting the increasingly grim passage of the war. These young men came from the other side of the world to defend this country and so many did not return ...
More memoirs tomorrow, meantime best wishes to everyone.

Geriaviator
27th Dec 2015, 15:23
The years roll back from an airfield built on history

Post no. 17 from the memoirs of Tempest pilot Flt Lt Jack Stafford, DFC, RNZAF
NEWCHURCH was right on the coast, well placed to greet the incoming V1s. It was little more than a few fields knocked together, and our two 1400yd grass runways were reinforced with pierced steel planking (PSP) to support the five-ton Tempests. There we lived under rather primitive conditions in tents that slept two, three or four pilots on cots with sleeping bags. Our officers' mess was a marquee and our water came from a well. There were no facilities for bathing at the airstrip and the lavatory was a trench in the ground some distance from the tent lines. It was summer and far from pleasant.

A system was quickly established enabling us to spend 24 hrs on duty at the airfield, followed by 24hrs off. This was great. The 24 hrs off were spent at Eastbourne, Hastings or Ashford, which was the closest. Mid-day would see those who came off duty leave in an assortment of decrepit old vehicles for the chosen city. Rick Tanner and I usually headed for Hastings where we were treated royally by the publican of the Railway Hotel. He was wonderful to us, good food, hospitality and always a bath. Bruce Lawless went with me on several occasions and ended up marrying the innkeeper’s lovely daughter. Together they made their home in England, which was a loss to New Zealand.

Newchurch was a place of great historic significance and had played many parts in English history. Numerous tales were told of the smugglers who frequented the area and it seemed that nothing much happened in early times without Newchurch being in some way affected. I heard that a local vicar was, in the distant past, a most infamous smuggler. Good for him! One morning I woke early to find a swirling ground fog lying mysteriously all around. I walked over the grass and gradually the camp and the tent lines came indistinctly into view through the dispersing mist. I stopped and stood in the silence, noting a lightening in the eastern sky, reflecting that we were not that far from Hastings and that infamous battle.

Possibly some of the English survivors of that disaster headed east attempting to escape the Norman conquerors? I had read that several of the Norman boats had come ashore by mistake at Dungeness where the occupants were savagely slaughtered by the English. One thousand years have passed since those days yet the attitudes remain unaltered. The invader must pay for his temerity, and the defender must pay the price of defending his home and family.

Could this have been a resting-place for the Normans after the great battle? Did the retreating English or maybe the pursuing Normans camp here? Were their horses tethered in the fields where now our aircraft stand? Their tents could have occupied the same site where ours were now pitched. Technology so different, men so similar, driven by the same desires, the same fears, the same hopes, not knowing what the future would bring to any of us. Fighting to the death in a conflict whose political causes and ultimate aims were little understood by most of the participants.

The noise of clattering pots and pans came from the cookhouse. More light was coming from the east and the ghostly groundmist swirled and disappeared around me. A short flight for a fighter, away across the Channel, young men from many nations lay groaning and dying in the sands of Normandy, and in the surrounding countryside. Hundreds of miles away, in some cases thousands of miles away, families would soon be mourning the loss of their beloved sons.

A few shouted commands came from the airfield as the ground staff prepared for the day's flying and the crack of a starter cartridge followed by the ear-splitting roar from the mighty Napier Sabre ended my reverie. It was time to act not dream, for a few miles across the Channel, in the land of the Norman, German soldiers were readying the flying bombs to launch the offensive of the day. Soon I’d be mounting my steel charger in much the same way as perhaps the Normans and their English enemies had mounted their battle chargers in 1066, but I would meet the enemy in the skies, high above the ancient battlefields.

The steel runway planking was lifted at war's end and today no trace remains of RAF Newchurch except an information board.

Jack Stafford was promoted to warrant officer and commissioned in August. He flew many ground attack sorties and was involved with covering the airborne invasion to capture the Arnhem and Nijmegen Bridges before the squadron moved to the former Luftwaffe airfield at Volkel in the Netherlands. But not all sorties went according to plan ...

Danny42C
27th Dec 2015, 17:39
Geriaviator,
... and the lavatory was a trench in the ground some distance from the tent lines. It was summer and far from pleasant...
So the Deep Trench Latrine was not restricted to Far Away Places with Queer Sounding Names, then ! (try one when it has been in use for a month or two and the noon temp. is 40°+):eek:

That said, your man was a poet.

Danny.

Danny42C
28th Dec 2015, 03:02
Geriaviator,

For all Jack Stafford's commendable loyalty to his Tempest as being the V-1 killer par excellence, it must be said that others were in the field, too. I give you (all figures are from Wiki except where otherwise stated. My insertions are in []):

SPITFIRE XIV

Loaded weight: 7,923 lb
Rolls-Royce Griffon 65, supercharged V12 engine, 5-bladed Jablo-Rotol propeller
2,050 hp at 8,000 ft.......Maximum speed: 404 mph (@ 11,000 ft #) ......4x20mm cannon.

compares with:

TEMPEST

max. Take off Weight 13.540 lbs [nearly double that of the Spitfire]
Napier Sabre IIA 2180 hp.......Speed: 426 mph......4x20mm cannon.

(Note # above from) Supermarine Spitfire Mk.XIV
url=http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_spitfire_mkXIV.html]Supermarine Spitfire MK XIV[/url
...The superior performance lof the Mk XIV made it the ideal aircraft to deal with the menace of the V-1. No.91 Squadron, based at West Malling, ended up with the best record against the flying bomb, shooting down 184 with its Mk XIVs...
and:
(...the intended operational altitude [of the V1s] was originally set at 2,750 m (9,000 ft). However, repeated failures of a barometric fuel-pressure regulator led to it being changed in May 1944, halving the operational height [say 4,000 ft]...[Wiki]...)
Clearly the Meteor was the aircraft for the job, but:
...the Meteors, although fast enough to catch the V-1s, suffered frequent cannon failures, and accounted for only 13...[Wiki]...

I think we should give the Spitfire its due (although I must admit to bias !)

Danny.

Chugalug2
28th Dec 2015, 22:00
Danny:-
(although I must admit to bias !)A bias shared with a good many including me, Danny. However, these high powered (whether by Napier or Bristol) Hawker descendants of the Hurricane were our ultimate piston engined UK fighters, cut off in their prime by the wheezy asthmatic spawns of Whittle, seemingly relying on the earth's curvature to get airborne.

The inauspicious operational debut of the Meteor against the V1s, or the vulnerability of the Me 262 to marauding Mustangs once its "bits" were dangling, didn't alter the fact that it was the end of the line for the prop fighters, with the Sea Fury allowed one last fling in the Korean War.

We all share delight in the unmistakeable sounds of Merlin powered fighters. We can even hear the mighty growl of the Centaurus still, but the Sabre? Gone forever I fear, except in rare audio recordings as here:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo0Lv1S3RfQ

Fo0Lv1S3RfQ


A video of the Tiffies going about their business here:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYiBPy578UU

HYiBPy578UU

JENKINS, you alluded to two RAF a/f's perched on hilltops above a river but did not tell us where. Did you by chance mean Colerne and Charmy Down? I was based at the former in the late 60s and remember being there in the 50s and seeing a pyramid of Brigands patiently awaiting their end at the hands of the scrap merchants.

Danny42C
28th Dec 2015, 22:57
Chugalug,

Agree (we have/had a callsign "Big Pistons Forever" on frequency, "Hear, Hear !", say I). But "the Old Order changeth, giving place to New"....

What did amuse me was this: the AA gunners were always saying that they could nail us 100% of the the time if only we'd just fly S&L at constant height. So now they were presented with exactly that.......oh, dear, oh dear, oh dear !......(until the Proximity Fuse came along, that is).

Thanks for the links. I always liked the idea of a sleeve valve; it was supposed to make a much quieter engine; didn't the old "sit up and beg" Daimlers, that King George (V) and Queen Mary drive about in *, used to have them ? (Did it make for a heavier engine ?)

Danny.

Note *: by repute, with a built-in potty in the back. :*

Geriaviator
29th Dec 2015, 15:13
Tempest v. Spitfire: top speed 426mph v 404 mph. The infernal V1 was catapulted to 350mph and increased to 400 mph as it burned off fuel. So only the Tempest could catch it in level flight. Danny also mentions the five-bladed Rotol propellor, which was apparently denied to the Tempest. Jack Stafford spent some months at de Havilland Hatfield helping to sort out the four-blade DH prop which struggled to cope with the Sabre output: 3000bhp at emergency power, Napier proving this with repeated six-hour runs at this figure. With the latest prop the Tempest would have been even faster, vide the five-blader on the Sea Fury.

The brilliant design of the H-24 Sabre engine fascinates every engineer and its story is full of dirty deeds. Rolls-Royce resented the Napier company from its car days and did its best to talk down the Sabre, which in 1940 was producing double the power of the Merlin. (RR did try to produce a complex X-24 engine. It was called the Vulture and fitted to the twin-engine Avro Manchester which became an outstanding success … after Avro dumped the Vulture and fitted four Merlins instead.) Had the effort and support given to the Merlin been given to the Sabre, who knows where it might have led? I have seen a Napier advert in a 1946 edition of Flight stating that a Sabre developing 5000bhp had been granted a civil certificate. But by then, we agree, it was clear that the jet was the way to go.

Tempest V1 destruction from Newchurch near Dover: 3 Sqn, 286 confirmed. 486 Sqn, 223. 56 Sqn, 70. Fighter Interception Unit on detachment, 85. From Westhampnett, 501 Sqn, 72. Could it be that Stafford was right, there was nothing to touch the Tempest as V1 destroyer?

MPN11
29th Dec 2015, 16:05
The Deep Trench Latrine ... ah, there was one at RAF Stanley on the airfield site, where the climate was perhaps more conducive to its use than the tropics.

Oh what fun we had in ATC Local, lobbing a well-timed bird-scaring cartridge in that direction [with deflection for wind, of course] to assist those suffering from 'dietary congestion'. We should have charged for the service!

JW411
29th Dec 2015, 16:30
I can well remember being on a major exercise in El Adem in 1963 ("Triplex West"). We were all under canvas in the bundu on the west side of the airfield. Us aircrew had a 10-holer Deep Trench Latrine with a hessian screen about four feet tall in front which spared the airmen walking past on their way to work from having too much to laugh at.

I was sat there one morning and I noticed that some of the lads were starting to salute as they passed. Believe it or not, there was a Sqn Ldr sat on the end hole firing the morning gun with his SD hat on his head returning all offered salutes!

I had a suspicion before this event that he was a bit of a pillock and this removed all doubt.

GlobalNav
29th Dec 2015, 21:58
Danny, Chug and others,

Picking up on some exchanges in mid December regarding my Father's time in India with the USAAF, I did some further research and checking of his WWII momentos. I found no direct evidence of units and places that he served, I only have foggy recollections of his stories. Nevertheless, piecing things together, it appears to me that my father was associated with the 80th Fighter Group - he served in many of the same places, and some interactions with Philip Cochran.

I found his service jacket, complete with wings (aircrew) and ribbons. I also found a hand made knife with carved leather scabbard. The knife is double-sided with a sharp tip, reminds me of a bayonet used for thrusting rather than slicing. But I'm no expert on such things. Finally, I found a handmade steel bracelet, with chain link, that is engraved with Dad's name, the CBI shield and on the back is engraved "Ranikhet India 1944 Himalaya Mts." I suspect this is the place where he spent a few days on a pass. He had remarked it is a beautiful place, and when I Googled it, found it to be essentially a military rest camp, apparently associated with the Air Commandos. I thought maybe you remember such a place.

If I knew how to insert a few pictures I would, bu my descriptions may be enough.

Danny42C
30th Dec 2015, 00:51
Geriaviator (your #7994),

It seems to be the old story of "Lies, Damned Lies - and Statistics" ! With no personal knowledge of the Tempest, and limited time on the Spit XIV, I am really in no position to judge, but it seems to me that the Tempest, with a level speed in the same ballpark as the Spit XIV, and 6% more powerful but 71% heavier than its rival, would be on pretty level terms with it on this job.
...The average speed of V-1s was 550 km/h (340 mph) and their average altitude was 1,000 m (3,300 ft) to 1,200 m (3,900 ft)...[Wiki]...
So both would have a considerable margin of level speed over the "doodlebug", but of course I would suppose that pilots would hold (say 2-3,000 ft) higher than their expected prey, and when they spotted it (or were vectored on to it), they would 'firewall' everything and dive onto it to catch and destroy it ASAP before it got near London. I don't think "level speed" would be relevant in the circumstances.

Wiki gives me:
.... In June 1944, however, the first German V-1 flying bombs were launched against London and the Tempest's excellent low-altitude performance made it one of the preferred tools for dealing with the small fast-flying unmanned missiles. 150 Wing was transferred back to the ADGB, where the Tempest squadrons racked up a considerable percentage of the total RAF kills over the flying bombs (638 of a total of 1,846 destroyed by aircraft).[33]...
It follows that 1208 were destroyed by other aircraft, we know that the Meteor had cannon troubles and only bagged a few. It seems that all sorts were pressed into service. Wiki gives us:
...The next most successful interceptors were the Mosquito (623 victories),[29] Spitfire XIV (303),[30] and Mustang (232). All other types combined added 158. Even though it was not fully operational, the jet-powered Gloster Meteor was rushed into service with No. 616 Squadron RAF to fight the V-1s. It had ample speed but its cannon were prone to jamming, and it shot down only 13 V-1s.[31]...
So it would seem that you "have the right of it" and the Tempest deserves its place as the No.1 airborne Doodlebug-killer !

Cheers, Danny.

Danny42C
30th Dec 2015, 01:34
MPN11 (your #7995),
...The Deep Trench Latrine ... ah, there was one at RAF Stanley on the airfield site, where the climate was perhaps more conducive to its use than the tropics.......Oh what fun we had in ATC Local, lobbing a well-timed bird-scaring cartridge in that direction [with deflection for wind, of course] to assist those suffering from 'dietary congestion'. We should have charged for the service!...
and

JW411 (your #7996).
...I can well remember being on a major exercise in El Adem in 1963 ("Triplex West"). We were all under canvas in the bundu on the west side of the airfield. Us aircrew had a 10-holer Deep Trench Latrine with a hessian screen about four feet tall in front which spared the airmen walking past on their way to work from having too much to laugh at...
My Post p.153/#3047 ("Danny, some local History and the Deep Trench Latrine"..... Extra Title: "Danny and matters scatologigal: - The Deep Trench Latrine"), may add a little local colour (and perhaps a louder bang, MPN11 !)

Danny.

FantomZorbin
30th Dec 2015, 08:16
My late brother-in-law recounted the time when he was in Somalia during WW2 and the camp he was responsible for had a large deep-trench-latrine. The time came when they had to move on so the latrine had to go.


An enthusiastic RE officer decided that he would take charge of the operation. A trench was dug a few metres away and parallel from the lat. and several charges were placed in it with the objective to collapse the side of the trench thereby filling the hole - all this was SOP. However, the aforesaid Sapper had found that he had a lot more explosive to hand so decided to excavate a trench etc. on the other side of the lat., remember he was enthusiastic!


Time came to strike the camp ... now you know what happens when you squeeze a piece of wet soap, Newton's third takes effect. Suffice to say that there was a humungous eruption and a magnificent cloud of immense proportions with a rainbow-like corona powered sky-wards.


The outcome of the ensuing enquiry as to the effect of the subsequent deluge on the adjacent POW camp seems to be lost in the mists of time!!!

Geriaviator
30th Dec 2015, 10:36
Low-level Rhubarb to Munster turns into disaster
Post no. 18 from the memoirs of Tempest pilot Flt Lt Jack Stafford, DFC, RNZAF

THE DECISION to do a Rhubarb, a low-level show, was made in our mess at Volkel late the night before at a time when decisions like this should never be made, at a time when the confidence supplied by a few drinks overcomes discretion. Might pick up a Hun or two around Munster airfield? Sounds great!

The success of these shows depended to a large extent on the weather. To be effective we needed a low cloud base in which we could seek refuge if we got into trouble with enemy fighters, and yet good visibility to enable us to seek out and attack targets. Bill Williams, our well respected Flight Commander, was to lead, with Bev Hall, Ray Danzey, myself and Jim Sheddan. The weather forecast was perfect for such a trip, cloud base about 1,000 ft and 10/10.

The morning dawned cold and depressing. We had breakfast, climbed into our truck and headed for the dispersal and the briefing .The weather worsened but around midday we got a clearance to proceed and in a short time we were at the end of the runway. Jim developed an oil leak so we were one down. We took off but Ray became separated or had engine trouble and turned back while our three remaining aircraft forced on regardless.

We were well used to flying together, I had joined 486 on November 25, 1943 together with Ginger Eagleson. Bev and Bill had joined 486 together in January 44. Bill had already completed a tour of ops on Spitfires, part of it flying from Malta. Bev was straight from OTU. Bill Williams was a man of average height, slim and fastidious. Gentlemanly and soft-spoken, it was always a pleasure to be with him. Married before leaving New Zealand, Bev had a baby son back home and frequently spoke of his child. Together we had been on leave in Edinburgh shortly before this flight. Over previous months, flying ops together, we had become close friends. Bev was tall and strongly built. He was dark and his thick black hair showed a tinge of premature grey. With faith in each other's ability we confidently flew on into the gloom of that German afternoon.

We had taken off at 14.40 hrs and the murk increased with each passing minute. Once into Germany the weather deteriorated badly, the cloud base lowered. Bill was leading on a compass course as at that height map reading was difficult to say the least. A couple of times we came suddenly onto targets and I found it impossible to line them up before overshooting, although I managed to get a few bursts into a couple of flak emplacements. This was a highlight as most of the gunners were playing soccer immediately in front of me as I came over a hedge and gave them a squirt.

Bev fired at a high-tension pylon, which exploded with a brilliant flame. I was very impressed at the fireworks display and kept an eye open for a similar target. Bill decided the weather was too dicey and decided to return to base. We turned 180 degrees and set course for Holland, flying at zero feet and rising for belts of trees as the cloud had come right down.

Shortly after turning I saw ahead of me a high tension cable and decided to emulate Bev's spectacular success. The pylon was in sight and I actually was firing up with my shells crashing all over it but it failed to explode. I persisted firing until suddenly I realised I had left it too late to avoid a collision. I wrenched back the stick and kicked the left rudder to dodge the pylon itself but with a sickening thump I struck the cable.

Chugalug2
30th Dec 2015, 13:55
GlobalNav:-

If I knew how to insert a few pictures I would, bu my descriptions may be enough.The answer to this and other questions (why are we here, what is the meaning of life, are we alone?) can be found on the Computer/Internet Issues Forum sticky at:-

http://www.pprune.org/computer-internet-issues-troubleshooting/295617-frequently-asked-questions-useful-information.html

Hopefully we can look forward to seeing those photographs that you mention? In the meantime here is a link to the July 1966 copy of ex-CBI Roundup, which mentions Ranikhet. No doubt other issues are available (not published in August or September though) :-

http://www.ex-cbi-roundup.com/documents/1966_july.pdf

In fact all issues and a biography are linked here:-

http://www.ex-cbi-roundup.com/documents/

GlobalNav
30th Dec 2015, 14:49
Thank you Chugalug, haha, (I was wondering why I felt "alone")

Fascinating links to the Ex-CBI site. I plan to spend some time looking those roundup newletters over. I know I have very little, perhaps too little, to go on in my search for which outfits my father served in. Nevertheless, I am repeatedly struck by how these men, you men, put up with all this and succeeded admirably in serving your country and all we hold dear. I am just proud to include my father in this fine group.

I will get a few photos up as soon as I decode the process.

Happy New Year to all!

Chugalug2
30th Dec 2015, 16:19
GlobalNav, much as I would love to share in the generic "You Men" that you mention, I am no more worthy than your good self to wear that mantle. Like you, my Dad served in WWII and I'm still trying to find out more about him. Sadly he never returned.

Thanks to the real "You Men" who post here, we can all vicariously experience the danger, hardship and separation that this War of the World inflicted upon millions. I can but echo your praise of their generation.

Geriaviator, continuing thanks for Jack Stafford's account of his war. You have now left us on tenterhooks, a la an episode of Flash Gordon at the Saturday morning film show for kids. Will the Merciless Ming have his dreadful way with Dale Arden, or will Flash rescue her from a fate worse than death? Watch the next episode showing at this theater (sic). I sincerely hope you aren't going away on New Year grant before posting that next episode!

Danny42C
31st Dec 2015, 02:53
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Kohima.jpg/350px-Kohima.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kohima.jpg)


Imphal and Kohima Campaign

GlobalNav (your #7997 and #8003),

Sorry if we left you feeling "alone" (particularly as your first plea was addressed to Chugalug and myself), but I was busy making sure the Spitfire (my all-time favourite) got its fair share of the honours in the "doodlebug" campaign. These things carried a ton of H.E.; some 9,500 were launched against (mainly) London and SE England; they were even more frightening than the later V-2s, as you could hear and see them coming. So long as the engine kept phut-phutting there was nothing to worry about, but when it shut off....(you had only 10 seconds before it dived in and exploded). ([...], my comments)

V-1 flying bomb
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

...2. Results..................................................... . 'Blitz' ......... V-1.

Structures damaged/destroyed ........................1,150,000.... 1,127,000
Casualties.................................................. .....92,566..........22,892
Rate casualties/bombs tons.................................1.6................1.6. ..
tAnother authority quotes:
...The toll of human suffering was appx. 6184 [almost all civilian] people killed by V1's and 17981 seriously injured and maimed...
Now as regards the CBI, your:
...I thought maybe you remember such a place...
There were many such places, as 6,000 ft AMSL was the minimum to qualify as a "Hill Station", the majority were in the southern foothills of the Himalayas. Ranighet is one of these in NE India; the closest I got to it was Dehra Dun (about 200 mi); it is very close to Naini Tal (and, like it, very popular in the hot months).

Very probably it would have been a R & R centre for the US Army, and I don't suppose your Father spent a lot of time there (unless he was very lucky), but rather he would be with Colonel Chennault (The Flying Tigers"), supporting General "Vinegar Joe" Stilwell and the US and Chinese Armies who were fighting far distant in North Burma to keep open the Burma and Ledo roads which were vital to maintain the Kuomintang in the war agaist Japan. He had British Chindits with him in his Command, one of whom was Brigadier John Masters ("Bhowani Junction", which was made into a film).

The British and Indian armies operated far to the south (see map above) and we had very little contact with (or knowledge of ) what was going on in the far North (and relationships were far from cordial, by all accounts). So, although I was out there 3½ years, I can add little to your knowledge of your Father's daily life, other than hazard a guess that it would not be unlike ours. But fire away with any questions - you never know !

Cheers, Danny42C. [Pilot, USAAC, Arnold Scheme, 1941].

AND A HAPPY AND PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR TO ALL PPRUNE POSTERS AND READERS AND THEIR LOVED ONES !