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Danny42C
9th May 2015, 20:01
Geriaviator,


Mag drop fixed. Ground tested and found servicable. Thanks !

Hope to be firing on all cylinders when (if ) we hit 8,000. :ok:

Cheers, Danny.

Union Jack
9th May 2015, 22:24
7000 not out! Warm congratulations to Danny, on behalf of all his forerunners, for everything he has done to keep this amazing thread so vibrantly alive after all these years.:ok:

Jack

Danny42C
10th May 2015, 01:37
Jack,

Many thanks for the kind words ! It has been my pleasure to play my part in keeping afloat this Finest of all Posts in Military Aviation.

All the best, Danny.

Wander00
10th May 2015, 09:11
Brilliant thread, many thanks to Danny et al

Fantome
10th May 2015, 10:05
we are so fortunate . . . the real McCoy . . nothing ersatz . . .

we dips our lids

pzu
10th May 2015, 19:22
Danny as usual with me a Tangent, but first 7000 Up - Brilliant - Could you have played for Yorkshire!!!! ;)

Now my Tangent, as I've mentioned on here before my late father during WWII eventually made it onto OPs as an RAF(VR) Air Gunner with 34 & then 31 Sqds SAAF, one of his claims to fame was a 'bit part' in the Warsaw Airlift of late 1944

Have just found out that the Rear Gunner of his trip on 10/11 Sept 1944, a fellow RAF(VR) A/G one Sgt Ken Todd is still alive and well here in the UK

For me this is Fantastic News :D:D:D

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

Danny42C
11th May 2015, 18:29
pzu,

No (didn't like Cricket at school - they throw hard balls at you !!). The Warsaw '44 Airlift was a sad story; the Russians hampering our relief operations in every way (and I believe half the drop fell into German hands, anyway).

Fantastic news indeed ! Now if you can get in touch with your Sgt Ken Todd, try and get him aboard here where he belongs. Tempt him with this (and Google "Pilot Officer Prune" or "TeeEmm"). On this Thread we could do with all the help we can get to keep it going. Thanks, Danny.Remarks that get,one expelled from the
Air Gunners' Union
You never see anything on these trips, so I always take a book into the turret ...
Training ? No, you see, I'm at an operational squadron now . . How was I to know there was anything wrong with the
turret: the D.I's always done by the armourer .. .
I never make a testing burst we have to clean our own
guns...
I couldn't tell the range, as it was a Condor and we'd only practised with 109's and 110's ...
Well, you see, nobody knew what it was, as we were all having our sandwiches at the time ...
We'd already sighted the coast, so I wasn't in the turret at the time .
I didn't bother much about it, as it had RAF markings on it...
http://www.content-delivery.co.uk/aviation/airfields/prune/Prune14.jpg





Thanks,

Danny.

Ormeside28
11th May 2015, 20:29
Congratulations Danny. I'm still keeping a watching brief. Purely what I was used to, but if I was back flying low level over the sea, I would rather have a wheel than the Airbus pistol grip. Kinloss looks quiet after a quick run around outside the wire. Runway looks fine from the road!! Ah well, we can still hope.

Danny42C
12th May 2015, 13:31
Ormeside,

Glad to hear from you (when one of our 90+ gang suddenly goes quiet, you tend to suspect the worst !) Agree about the Airbus (and all of that ilk), although my experience in them is limited to serf-class down the back-end of a 320. But from all I hear here, I would shrink back in terror from LL over the sea (or anywhere else, for that matter) in a thing whose natural habitat is FL300 or above, and which (by all accounts), I don't fly, but rather it flies me. I suppose you're only there to reassure the pax (poor deluded souls) that there is some human input into this devil's brew. (REMEMBER: A BLACK BOX HAS NO FEAR OF DEATH).

What would you want a wheel for ? What was the matter with the good old stick ? With unlimited power assistance, you could have it (say) cigarette-size, foldaway, in its proper place from time immemorial, (between your knees), under your lunch tray. Hydraulic power and its back-up fails (whoever heard of such a thing ?), either you put second dickey onto hydraulic handpump and tell him to pump for his life, or entrust your soul to its Maker and your body to Martin-Baker (pity about the pax). No bang seat ? Ah, well.

Instinctly recoil from the side-stick idea, but it seems to work. But wouldn't it have been better to couple the sticks together mechanically (as had always been done since the Wright brothers). How can you instruct when you can't feel what your stude is doing with his pole ? (and I don't want any Rabelaisian comment !).

And it would have avoided the hideous situation in the AF447 tragedy (and I impute blame to no one on board that dreadful night), where it's all going pear-shaped, P3 has the stick pulled hard back into his guts, P1 and P2 are running around desperately in the dark and chaos, and they can't see or (more vitally) feel, what P3's doing. So a perfectly good aircraft, flying happily in the cruise, with only an iced-up pitot head (was pitot-head heater u/s, then ?), and 228 souls on board (RIP all), stalls at FL380, and goes all the way down into a freezing sea, and no one can stop it. (And, but for a miracle of marine salvage, no one would ever know why).

Now I see why the wise men in my Arnold Flight School made me fly my first 60 hours without an ASI (as I'd never been off the ground before, I felt no pain at all). Don't think Orville and Wilbur had one either, and they made out all right at Kittihawk, too.

Rant over, standby for incoming.

Cheers, Danny. (Armchair warrior par excellence).

Danny42C
12th May 2015, 14:26
A Funny Thing happened to me on my way to edit my Post #7006 last night.

I'd already had no end of trouble trying to tidy it up a bit (get the spacing right, delete one of the two "Cheers, Danny" etc), because the excerpt and pic from TeeEmm had become increasingly "touchy" if approached, and would vanish in a puff of cybersmoke if you ventured too close.

At last I gave it up and let it go as it was. Later, there came to mind another "Remark that gets you Expelled"....." from my own experience at 1580 Calibration Flight, RAF Cholaveram, early '45.

Quoth one of our AGs in the Mess one lunchtime: "Bloody Pilots run their tanks dry, and I get dysentery !!" * To which the massed ranks of TWLOTA riposted: "We'll have you thrown out of the Union !"

* (well he might, if we were 40 miles out over a shark-infested Indian Ocean. But no sweat, select another full tank and the VV would always pick up again after a short time and a bit of wobble-pump).

Now I put this in as an EDIT at the end, and it went off OK (I swear it did ! - I saw it). Today it's gone. ???. Should I have said "Bl##dy", perhaps ? (I thought we'd got past that a while ago with "Pygmalion"). Any ideas, anybody ?

D.

Fantome
12th May 2015, 17:59
Rant over, standby for incoming.

Cheers, Danny. (Armchair warrior par excellence).


Thou dost not rant nor run away at the mouth, but fill us who gather here around the fountain in the village square, with
wonder, leavened by the humourous recall of days of yore.

Standby for incoming? Old mate had had enough after a few weeks disastrous marriage. As he walked out the door she cried. . Where do you think you're going? . . .. Get fxxxxxx. Letter following.

ricardian
13th May 2015, 11:17
A little off topic but here's a fine map of Scapa Flow (marked MOST SECRET) (http://www.scapaflowwrecks.com/map/fullscreen.php) and its WW2 defences together with the sites of sunken ships, crashed aircraft, etc

MPN11
13th May 2015, 12:09
Well, if we're doing maps ... here, from a dusty corner of my archives, is a set of diagrams of the main Malta airfields [as they were in 1942] to show the taxi tracks and dispersal points. The base document was a detailed survey of the bombing of Malta in WW2, examining the effects after plotting where all the bombs fell.

No wonder they needed follow-me vehicles to lead aircraft to their dispersals, especially as the Germans and Italians spent a lot of time and effort re-arranging the geography on a regular basis.

LUQA and SAFI

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/Map%20Luqa.jpeg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/Map%20Luqa.jpeg.html)

HAL FAR

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/Map%20Hal%20Far.jpeg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/Map%20Hal%20Far.jpeg.html)

TA'KALI

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/Map%20Takali.jpeg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/Map%20Takali.jpeg.html)

Danny42C
13th May 2015, 18:26
A final footnote to the National 70th Anniversity Celebrations from our eponymous Founder (shamelessly looted from TeeEmm/Wiki)



http://www.content-delivery.co.uk/aviation/airfields/prune/Prune10.jpg
VEE EMM DAY
Prune and his "accomplices" Flying Officer Fixe, Sergeant Straddle, Sergeant Winde, Sergeant Backtune, WAAF Winsum (who later became Mrs Prune) and, of course, Binder, his dog.


Note that it is a five-man crew (Wellington ?), and that two are RAAF (dark blues).

Danny42C.

Fareastdriver
13th May 2015, 21:10
The Scapa maps took me back a bit. In the early seventies we took a couple of Pumas up to Ness Battery. This was a barracks used by an Artillery unit guarding the westerly approach to Scapa Flow. It's new use was as an exercise centre for the Army but the dining room still had all the murals painted on the walls by the wartime occupants. Ther main theme seemed to be small cottages with rose archs over the front door; something not to be found in the Orkneys.

The guns had gone but the magazines, empty, were much as they had been during the war. Double walls of concrete and even the blast shutters, designed to stop a hit on the gun position effecting the ammunition, were still working.

There is a photograph of a Puma, not me, perched on the top of the Old Man of Hoy. I had a look at it but I didn't let there be too much weight on the wheels in case this million year old structure plummetted into the sea. I would not have been very popular.

On the Island of Hoy there was several abandoned buildings somewhere near the centre. They were connected with the main fleet fuel store and it was in the process of being emptied. The fuel oil was kept in an underground complex and I had a wander down the tunnel for a couple of hundred yards then I was chased out for not having a safety helmet.

It is common for Her Majesty's aerial conveyances to visit parts of the UK where exceptional standards of food can be purchased. Machranhanish for kippers, Rathlan Island for lobsters, Channel Islands for duty free but we found one in Hoy for lamb.

The Orkneys produce more lamb than they can eat so once a year a ferry full of livestock trucks all baa baaing away departs for Aberdeen. We were fortunate in meeting a farmer who had some that had missed the boat, as it were, and were available at a very advantageous rate. A few phone calls back to Odiham and we had a group of buyers. Several lambs fell over and a butcher packed them into the requisite number of freezer packs and we punched oft daun sauf.

It was a long way back to Odiham and we had a planned night stop at Leuchers. A bottle of Orkney malt persuaded the NCO i/c airmans mess to put them in their refrigeraters overnight and they were in excellent condition and ready for the freezer at Odiham.

Any sort of mess function, officers or sergeants, would require copious amounts of Deutsche Sekt. We had a CAAP (Components Accelerated Ageing Programme) aircraft that you could take anywhere as long as you burnt off the hours. Gutersloh NAAFI was the obvious choice and certain arrangements may have taken place with them in the portcullis hats.

You cannot do it now. I was on a visit to my old squadron recently and every minute of flying has to be accounted for.

FantomZorbin
14th May 2015, 07:01
MPN11


Aaah, Safi and the world famous(?) folk club!!

MPN11
14th May 2015, 08:44
Never heard of it, FZ, but Google was enlightening as always!

The idea of taxying from Luqa to Hal Far is interesting - must have been fun keeping the engine[s] from overheating!

Warmtoast
14th May 2015, 10:39
MPNII


A long time ago when I was on 99 Sqn (Britannias) we were tasked to support an army exercise moving troops to Luqa. About four Britannias were used for the move ISTR
Three Brits made it to Luqa successfully (including the one I was on) but the third captained by 99's C.O. of the day landed for some unknown reason at the nearby RN airfield at Hal Far.
It was only when the C.O. asked after landing for taxi instructions (on the Luqa ATC frequency), that Luqa asked for his whereabouts on the airfield as they couldn't see him.
I can't recall we ever got a satisfactory explanation of the error!

MPN11
14th May 2015, 10:54
Warmtoast ... we, the runways are similarly orientated [give or take a few degrees] and only about 2.5 miles separated. At least OC 99 wasn't dropping bombs :cool:

PS: The Ta'ali Craft Village occupies a lot of the old Domestic Site: a very nostalgic stroll through rows of declining Nissen huts ;)

FantomZorbin
14th May 2015, 11:31
We had more than a slack handful of puddle jumpers make approaches to Ta'ali airfield when inbound from Lampedusa - tricky to sort out when the pilot only spoke Italian!! but there were ways and means!

Danny42C
14th May 2015, 16:51
Fantome,

Your #2010 refers,

According to Ogden Nash (?): "The only way to fight a woman is with your hat - grab it and run !" :ok:

D.

Danny42C
14th May 2015, 18:21
Warmtoast,

Your #7017: "I can't recall we ever got a satisfactory explanation of the error!"

I can give one! It's happened before and it'll happen again ("Fog in the Cockpit"). It happened to me (cf my #3753 p.188).

Fantom Zorbin,

Your #7019: " tricky to sort out when the pilot only spoke Italian!! - but there were ways and means!"

Such as a red Verey straight at him from close range ?

Danny. :ok:

Fantome
14th May 2015, 22:21
ways and means? The late Ted Sly (92 East India SQN with N Duke) used to tell one about the captured Itie pilot who was not at all forthcoming. Some impatient stroppy intelligence wallah was about to get the rubber hose out when Ted and Neville walked into the tent and gave the IO a piece of their minds. They then took the prisoner to the mess tent for a drop of 'liberated' chianti.

Geriaviator
15th May 2015, 17:44
Congratulations on post #7000, Danny, and please be assured that every reader of this wonderful and addictive thread is delighted to see you steering our (un)steady course at 93 not out!

Someone mentioned puddlejumpers a page or two back so I thought it's time to send the crew room to sleep with yet another account. My own puddle was called the Irish Sea. Would you like to hear about one memorable journey? :hmm:

ricardian
15th May 2015, 22:12
I have not seen this mentioned in these hallowed portals.
The Story of the Swift Current Airport

6UdBJ6FLjOg

smujsmith
15th May 2015, 22:38
Ricardian,

What a stunning vid you post. And certainly very appropriate to the tenor of this thread. I wonder if Roy Spence is still around to share his experience with us ? Yet again we see how important our Commonwealth was in dire times. Anyone else have memories of Canadian training in those days ?

Smudge :ok:

Danny42C
16th May 2015, 00:38
Fantome,

There have been many tales about isolated cases in WWII of chivalrous treatment of a captured enemy. (I'm sure Ted and Neville got far more out of their "Itie" with a few glasses of Chianti than the I.O. would have done with his rubber hose. More flies are caught with honey than with vinegar!

Another story I heard (source unknown) related to a group of aircrew prisoners who had the misfortune to fall into the hands of a Gestapo unit. Fortunately for them this became known to a nearby Luftwaffe squadron. Well knowing what treatment our chaps were likely to receive from their captors, the officers of the squadron went down in a body after them, and forced the Gestapo at gunpoint to hand them over. Then they took them back to their Mess, gave them a good meal, and finally made sure that they were taken to the nearest British POW Camp....D.

Geriaviator,

Thank you ! As for this "wonderful and addictive Thread"; its "unsteady course" is one of its main charms (you never know coming what's coming up next!)

Of course we want to hear about your "memorable journey" (although the Irish Sea is rather a large "puddle"). Adventures come in all sizes (of aircraft). Get on the keyboard - this is what a Forum's for....D.

ricardian and Smudge,

A quick summary of WWII life on a typical Canadian British Flying School (one among many). The six BFTS in the US would be very similar, and in most cases they were built near a sizeable town, with all the advantages that brought.

The "Arnold" Schools in the US were all US Army Air Corps bases, many "out in the Sticks". Moreover, the training was in three two-month stages, each at a different base. This made any local friendships difficult, and in places like Carlstrom and Craig Fields, you were so far out that it was impossible.

The BFTS, on the other hand, did all their six months in one place, and (as mentioned above), they were all near civilisation. (Smudge, harrym has given a full account of his RCAF training on this Thread, finishing about a month ago).....D.

Cheers to all, Danny.

Fantome
16th May 2015, 02:35
This came on the teeve last night. Can't say it gave rise to wet dreams.
But it is very very good if you like a good murder, and the near-authentic replication of an RAAF base in 1929. (They should have got hold of a DH60 instead of the DH82 that's in it.) The script writer deserves a big hand for making the period pieces so plausible. Even if the storyline is a huge drawing of the longbow.

Ace crime solver, Miss Fisher , has a big following on ABC TV. She is smart and sassy and absol-bloody-lutely gorgeous. (Her brother, in real life, is a highly skilled wood worker in Hobart. Manys the double malt we have sunk together. Once we took a 172 to Flinders Island. But that's another story.)

Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries - Series 3 Ep 2 Murder And The Maiden : ABC iview (http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/miss-fishers-murder-mysteries/DR1422V002S00)

Geriaviator
16th May 2015, 13:46
Wouldn't it be great to have an instrument rating, I used to think. Such as the week we spent in Denham north of London waiting for the weather to clear, or the four extra days on a rainswept Guernsey holiday before we could get VFR clearance out of the zone, or the Jersey holiday we didn't get at all, though that week of low cloud and heavy rain wasn't such a loss.

Many years ago I acquired a Piper Arrow, which is basically a Cherokee GT with retractable gear and constant speed prop. It took quite some time to collect enough moolah to fit the necessary avionics, then even more to train at Oxford and at last attain the coveted IR. Travel became instantly easy, file your flight plan, copy your clearance, climb into the airways and do as you're told. No more fumbling about beneath lowering clouds peering for pinpoints in the smoke and haze, no more IMC delays or cancelled summer holidays, but truth to tell airways flight proved to be a little boring. Except once.

One January day I looked forward to a business trip from Belfast to Birmingham. Met promised me clear departure conditions with cloud increasing across the Irish Sea, becoming a continuous layer 3000ft – FL060, with freezing level 2,500ft. Of course I had learned all about icing on my IR course, and knew it was a Very Bad Thing. But once past the Isle of Man there was nothing over 300ft between me and Birmingham, so I reasoned that I could descend below freezing level if I had to. What could possibly go wrong?

Fantome
16th May 2015, 16:15
go wrong. go wrong... go wrong . . . . . well sounds like you picked up a bag going into Birmingham. Sticking the neck out when you'd rather have plain sailing does not compare with the old ways of cloud seeding, when you'd fly on and on in stratus at minus ten, the boots unable to have any effect on the fast build up of rime. Standard way round it was to wait till the first hint of a shudder, then switch off the burners and go down to get rid of the ice. Needless to say, this was not the practice when over terrain with lowest safes that would compromise a return intact to base.

Sometimes wondered what damage a ten foot long great thick javelin of an ice slice would inflict, if by the remotest chance some farm house or wandering stockman happened to cop the spear.

harrym
16th May 2015, 17:17
Many thanks Ricardian for that Swift Current video clip, it made an interesting comparison to my memories of the place as described in #5586 et seq. It would seem that Roy Spence was a staff member rather than a student, I hope he was not affronted by the commentator referring to cadets (and by implication all other RAF personnel) as 'soldiers' !

Geriaviator
16th May 2015, 17:17
Alas Fantome my Paro had/has neither boots nor electric prop pads, as you'll see from tomorrow's thrilling instalment. At least it was most thrilling for me at the time ...

I think the good folk around Heathrow and Gatwick can tell you about falling ice, especially when it comes through their roofs. And then there's the yellow-brown ice chunks which descend from the outlet of certain holding tanks in the rear of the aircraft :ooh:

Danny42C
16th May 2015, 17:22
Geriaviator,

".... But once past the Isle of Man there was nothing over 300ft between me and Birmingham...."

But Snowdonia is not all that far away to the West !

Fantome,

Was an apocryphal tale of the time when waste water from the galley and toilets was vented to atmosphere. Airliner in freezing conditions accumulates quite a slab below. On long finals to LHR in warmer air, this unpleasant iced lollie unsticks, goes down through a roof somewhere in W. London, and lands on (nicely made) bed.

Probably just a tale,

Danny.

EDIT: Apparently the folk were out at work, so the stuff had all melted when they got in that evening. D.

Danny42C
16th May 2015, 18:06
pzu,

Have you by any chance succeeded in contacting the Sgt A/G Ken Todd of whom you spoke? If so, and even if we cannot persuade him to come on here or tell his story (via a relative or friend if he is not yet a "silver-surfer"), could you ask him just one question for me. Did the Wellingtons he knew have a door on the port side between trailing edge and tail ?

Here is the problem:

In my P.325 #6489 of 19.11.14.(re "Wimpeys"), I said: "But the problem with opening a can of worms is that there are an awful lot of worms in it". So here's another !

With the recent resurgence of interest in the "Wimpey", I have examined a number of photographs and diagrams on various sites, but have never found one yet which shows any trace of a rear crew door on the port side between trailing edge and tail. For I clearly remember this door, as I was one of the little party who found welcome shelter from the rain on a night Station Defence Excercise at Hawarden in summer '42 (cf my P.123 #2460) - and have not dreamt it - I was rather puzzled. (And rather surprised no one has picked me up on this point).

Some rooting around turned up a number of sites, but none was helpful. And then, on "Target for Tonight", (cf link from Petet #6487), at 19.16 is a shot of the crew climbing aboard. Closer to camera are the "front end" people going up the nose ladder - but slightly further away - one other (wearing flying boots - rear gunner, I suppose) plus an airman, clearly aiming down the port side. There must be a door down there !

On 9th May, BBC2 (1000 - 1100) repeated "Wellington". Recorded it and watched it through. There were several tantalising glimpses of what might have been a door on the port side. I said then: "I'll run through the recording sometime in the next few days, as I can pause that at any point and check back. Will report findings". Now I've done that, and there are a number of "possibles", but all turn out to be optical illusions when you see the "still".

Finally, I came across a video of the rebuilding of the Wellington 1A fished up from Loch Ness. A clear view of the port side of the completed job shows no door. So ???

One last possibility: (Wiki): "Vickers Wellington":

"Wellington C Mark XV
Service conversions of the Wellington Mark IA into unarmed transport aircraft; able to carry up to 18 troops".

"Wellington C Mark XVI
Service conversions of the Wellington Mark IC into unarmed transport aircraft; able to carry up to 18 troops".

Surely they would not load/unload 18 troops through the nose hatch/ladder? (In any case, "mine" had nose and tail turrets, it wasn't "unarmed"). Could it have been a Mk.XV?

And this begs another question: why do this at all when there were plenty of L/Lease Daks around ?

You see why I want a Wellington expert, preferably an A.G. ! :confused:

Danny.

Fantome
16th May 2015, 22:17
Sorry Danny unable to throw any light on the quandary.

Edward Seago, the artist, he used light always to good effect
Anyone who has not read his wartime story HIGH ENDEAVOUR should get hold of a copy. It is the story of Jimmy, from a circus family, who against all odds made it into the RAF and trained to be a fighter pilot. Never managed to find out whether Seago based his story on fact or fiction.

The book has some lovely illustrations, including -
http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx104/paulcpix/a%20a%20a%20March14/DSCF1026.jpg (http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/177952796/HIGH_ENDEAVOUR_by_EDWARD_SEAGO_Collins_1944_good_condition.h tml)



Where I grew up in Walker Street, North Sydney, there lived across the road one Bill Baggie (sp?) who was an accountant. He flew Wimpies during the war. He regaled my dad one night , till they drained the whiskey bottle, with his account of his war. Bill was shot down and made prisoner. Stalagluft 111 maybe. His capture was dramatic as he came within an ace of being run through by the farmer who first bailed him up, intent on using his pitchfork to dispatch Bill. All else I can remember was that he married an English girl during the war. She was Stella. Very pale and slight and terribly English. They had a boy and a girl. The children thought the epitome of a treat was bread and butter smothered with hundreds and thousands.

Did not the Dutch and the Russkies put their DC-3 main door on the right side for a particular reason?

mmitch
17th May 2015, 11:10
Danny, I thumbed through my recent photos of the 'Brooklands Wellington'
without definite proof. There is a 'walkthrough' of a Wellington constructed of unusable structure of the recovery and the exit door is definitely port side.
I hope you find some comfort from this!
mmitch.

Geriaviator
17th May 2015, 13:34
Continued from #7028 (http://www.pprune.org/8978860-post7028.html) above:

The Paro whistled off the ground into the clear cold air, Aldergrove passed my airways clearance as soon as I requested it, and within a few minutes I was cruising the airway at 140kt on my assigned FL070. As the Isle of Man passed under the port wing, snow-capped Snowdonia was far to the right, and over the Wallasey VOR 50 miles ahead I could see the forecast layer of cloud reflecting the sunrise. This was the life, I thought, 160mph at 8gph, that's 20mpg giving a range of 800 miles in still air.

After Wallasey London passed me to Birmingham, who cleared my descent first to FL050, then to 4000ft. Easing back from the Arrow's 24/24 cruise setting, I said farewell to the sunshine and descended into the thick grey layer of cloud. I had noticed a line of white rime along the wing leading edges just as I heard a departing air taxi report icing during his climb out of Birmingham, but even this didn't ring my warning bell.

The Arrow has a thermometer probe projecting like a finger from the top of the windscreen. From the corner of my eye I noticed something white. That's funny, I thought, then realised that the probe had rapidly become a half-inch cylinder of ice, ice which was also forming along the wings. Without warning my poor Arrow was violently shaken by a giant hand as unbalanced ice formed on the airscrew, while within a few minutes the thermometer probe became a fist-size chunk of ice.

Did I imagine the controls were becoming a little sloppy, and was that an airflow buffet amid the frightening shaking? I hardly dared to look back at the wings, their airfoil profile being ruined by a layer of ice, or to think of what could be happening to the stabilator which I had been warned would ice up even faster than the wing. Besides it hangs on two 10mm bolts, less than the thickness of one's little finger. Which, as it happens, was the thickness of the front engine mounting tubes now carrying that unbalanced and furiously vibrating prop as well as the engine ...

papajuliet
17th May 2015, 15:09
Danny - it gets more curious.
The book "Wellington the geodetic giant " by Martin Bowman, contains a fair number of photos and there's no sign of a door on the port side in any of the varied marks. I googled " Wellington bomber cutaway" and can see no door in the drawings shown.
A friend of mine who flew, as an ATC cadet, in OTU Wellingtons, can't recall a door in the position you mention - he says that's where the cadet passengers used to sit.
I'm hoping to get to Cosford next Sunday. The engineering hangar contains a Wellington. Whilst there's no access to it other than on fixed open days, I might learn something if I talk to the right person.
It's conceivable that the transport version had that door. I haven't managed to find a photo. of that.

Danny42C
17th May 2015, 15:33
Geriaviator,

Now that's the stuff we want here! ("...whistled off the ground into the clear cold air..."). A Foeman worthy of my Steel, forsooth ! (except that you're not my Foeman, but a friend and colleague, a full member of that Ancient and Honourable Company of Throttle-Benders which rightly (as TWLOTA*) takes precedence on this superb Thread.

Now how will Pauline escape this latest Peril** ? We hasten to our Newsagents to book the next issue.

* (For new readers): "Twin Winged Lords of the Air"
** This dates me!

Cheers, Danny.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
17th May 2015, 15:57
My grandfather was an RAF metalworker. He received a posting to one of the training schools in Canada, but did not want to go. On his final night shift, another airman (same trade) came dashing up and begged to take over the posting. He had got a girl into trouble and needed as much distance as possible from her angry father. Next morning, the escapee was on the boat train to Liverpool!

papajuliet
17th May 2015, 17:27
Now found a photo of a Wellington C.XVI [ Pictorial History of the Royal Air Force vol. 2]. It's in usual Bomber Command colours. I can't quite make out the codes but the port side is clearly visible and there's no indication of a door.
The caption says that the C.XVI was a conversion from the Mk.Ic, with gun turrets removed, bomb bay sealed, seats fitted in the fuselage and - in the 24sqd. example shown - dummy turrets [ they appear to be turrets painted onto the fabric skin ].
Some of the earlier marks had a triangular window in the port side aft of the wing. I wonder if that window hinged upward Danny,and you sheltered under that?
The question of escape hatches arises - from photos and reading it looks as though there were hatches in the cockpit roof, the astrodome was a hatch and there was a starboard hatch [ although no hint as to where that was].

Danny42C
17th May 2015, 17:56
Fantome,

Nice pic of the "Wimpey" (But why do they always shoot from the front quarter - very rarely from the port rear, which is what I want? Suppose it looks more purposeful from that angle). Can't make out what the "nose art" is (or is it a patch, in which case why haven't they doped and painted it?) And where is it, do we know?

As regards Dutch and Russian doors on DC3s, no idea. First I've heard of it. Dutch ones would all be US L/L in the war, therefore door in proper place. Russian home-builds may have got a mirror image of the blue-prints they pinched (is it possible they printed off the microfilm negative upside down? - I am not a photographer, Boots used to do all that for me).

mmitch,

Many thanks (so I'm not daft, after all !) All I know is that there was a door in "mine", and I was in full possession of my faculties then, however I am now.

In my innocence, I thought all wimpeys were like that. Indeed the Lanc crews went aboard through a door on the stbd side (Halifaxes ?) If they could chop a hole that size in the Lanc or Dak (conventionally built) fuselage, without seriously weakening the structure, surely they could do it in the Wimpey?. The selling point of the geodesic structure was that it could have huge chunks bitten out of it and the rest would hold together and get back home. Many did

papajuliet,

And now a contrary witness! Danny Holmes is all at sea, and most seek solace from his pipe, his violin, and a 'fix' of a Banned Substance (only joking).

Cheers, Danny.

Fantome
17th May 2015, 18:06
how will Pauline escape this latest Peril?ah . .. . . what wafts of nostalgia for the story . .. . at least we did have a childhood Virginia . . .
imbued with such innocence .. . . but fast forwarding . . . (not TOO fast please) . .. there cannot be too many nonagenarians . . holed up in their fastnesses. . . wishing for better locales some of them no doubt
but in the case of present company obviously content . . .let nothing allow nothing to diminish memory's flow . . . therein lies the savingest grace of all as the ship comes in sight of her harbour . . . among the pleasing aspects are those redolent of reflections. An untroubled mind . . free of all conflict . . . yet alert still to every nuance . . . . . that is a consummation devoutly to be wished . .
happy and to know it . . free of pain. . . every day a bonus . . . and moreover aware. . so so aware of good fortune's smile . .
what the dear departed Ted Sly called the luck of the draw.

Another of Ted's ilk was the late Paul Metzler . . (shot down in his Cat off Rabaul January 1942) . . he'd muse and say when going over the many instances of survival as others drew the short one .. "lucky again".. .. he'd say with telling conviction.
Now though, this short ramble must end with the footnote that those lucky enough to see out year after year and see off companions boon and otherwise it is they for whom we must every day remember to spare a sanguine thought . . . for the cream of that crop we hold up as exemplars . . . (though they modestly shrug and say get orf)

p.s there is uplift of the spirit and beauty all around if the eye is only given the nod to behold. It is not impossible to blot out
the contrary entirely . The late Ted Hughes deflected agonies after the death of Plath by not allowing them to encroach .
There is a particularly fine summation of their lives by Felicity Plunkett, poetry editor at the University of Queensland Press -

"On the wall of Hughes's and Plath's London flat was an image of Isis from an astrological text. The myth of Isis describes her collecting and reassembling the scattered parts of her lover Osiris. This story underpins the astrological meaning of Isis as an expression of bringing together fragments, re-membering and resurrection. She endures; her name repeats the present tense of the verb to be: is, is."

There are two new biographies of Sylvia Plath. Felicity Plunkett says of them - "In their different ways they draw together the scattered evidence of a life, while Plath's republished book, The Bell Jar, is raw and deathless, like Esther who feels the old brag of my heart: "I am, I am, I am."

http://d.gr-assets.com/books/1348081175l/612188.jpg (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/612188.Memories_Dreams_Reflections)

ricardian
17th May 2015, 18:24
Danny42C - a quick search produced this

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i271/Virgo_photo/middle%20east%20aircraft/4wellies_0002_edited.jpg

And a subsequent search found this! (http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/423320-can-you-identify-wellington.html)

Fantome
17th May 2015, 22:24
Regarding the hat of the man in the middle it was often of course the chapeau of choice

It's such a surprise for the Eastern eyes to see,
that though the English are effete, they're quite impervious to heat,
When the white man rides every native hides in glee,
Because the simple creatures hope he will impale his solar topee on a tree.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc39/apollo-fox/Riyan_1.jpg

Danny42C
18th May 2015, 00:47
Fantome (your #7042),

Now we have released a charming stream of lyricism into the mix (what next on this wonderful Thread ?) Holed up in my fastness, I rest content. I always was Kipling's Cat Who Walked by Himself, and All places were Alike to Him.

And you will remember the obitur dicta of a learned Judge (when questioned as to why he had embarked on a legal career): "Well, we must all of us be somewhere, and I might as well be here"

Je'y suis, je'y reste...D.


ricardian,

Bingo! So it is possible to have a side door in a Wimpy. But mine was on the port side, and lower down, so you didn't need a ladder.

So "Sister Anna" (did she Carry the Banner?) was a Mk.X. The plot thickens (could they all have been one-off jobs for a particular purpose, and it was just our luck to find this one at Hawarden that night?)

(Your link) raises the possibility of a Mk.XV or XVI....D.


Fantome (your #7044),

Recalls Noel Coward's "Mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the Midday Sun!"

Actually, your Cap SD was just as good, but the Anzac "Bush Hat" was lighter and could screw up into any corner of the cockpit.....D.

Now we are all agog to learn Pauline's fate (can she hold on by her fingertips long enough ?) Come in, Geriaviator !,

Danny.

kookabat
18th May 2015, 08:00
All I can offer is this, of a 103 Sqn crew circa early 1942. There are the windows previously mentioned, no sign of a door though.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee27/kookabat/Bomber%20Command/Crew%20Photos/Phil%20Smith/A05-065-001med.jpg

(The bloke on the far right - a man named Phil Smith - would finish his tour with 103 Sqn, instruct at an OTU for a year and then be shot down on the last trip of his second tour, his 51st all up. He was the only survivor of his crew (a relative of mine was his navigator) and died in 2003.)

ancientaviator62
18th May 2015, 11:28
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/CREWATDIEGOGARCIA_zps8d4eb48d.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/CREWATDIEGOGARCIA_zps8d4eb48d.jpg.html)

As you can see from the pic the Empire standards were being maintained as late as October 1988 at Diego Garcia.

Geriaviator
18th May 2015, 15:47
#7036 continued ... By the way, Danny, the Arrow u/c literally whistles, I think it's propwash flowing along the hinges of the nosewheel doors :8

“Birmingham Golf Echo Lima cannot maintain height due severe icing require immediate descent”. The controller was back in an instant: “Echo Lima, you are cleared descend to 2000ft on your present heading, report when level. Your position 15 mls north-west of the field.”

I reduced power to 18 inches and the terrific vibration reduced as I let down, making minimal control movements and carefully holding a constant attitude on the instruments. I felt the Arrow was far from happy and the last thing I wanted was to provoke a stall or spin. Suddenly the warning horn blared and the yellow 'Gear in transit' light illuminated as the undercarriage lowered itself.

The earlier Arrows have a second 'pitot head' on the side of the fuselage which senses low airspeed and lowers the gear to prevent wheels-up landings. This sensor is heated like the airspeed pitot under the wing, but obviously not heated enough as it had iced up and given a low speed signal. So the Arrow thought I was going to land and helpfully decided to lower the gear for me. The extra drag from the wheels and open wheel wells sent the variometer to its bottom stop and we fell out of the cloud in seconds even though I grabbed the manual override to retract the gear again.

I wasn't worried, I was terrified, but as we descended into warmer air the ice disappeared as quickly as it had formed. The shaking stopped, the gear stayed up, and the Lycoming resumed its steady purr as I levelled at 2000ft and began to breathe more easily. Until a piece of propellor flew back and hit the upper windscreen with a terrific bang. When my heart resumed beating I realised it had been a chunk of ice from somewhere on the nose, and luckily the perspex was intact.

Approach and landing went perfectly but I was very glad to be back on the ground, very glad to find my Arrow none the worse apart from a dent from the ice hitting the cabin roof, and very glad to receive a CAVOK forecast for my flight home into a glorious sunset. Before leaving that afternoon the preflight revealed a chunk of ice still inside the air intake, a sobering reminder of the morning's frightening journey.

I flew many hours after this experience, but never again did I risk en-route icing even when there was warmer air beneath. In fact the only time I have approached ice is when it's in a glass. With gin and tonic.

Fantome
18th May 2015, 17:07
thank you thank you for an excellent essay
"what i did on my winter hols"
at least 9 out of ten

(most of mine back in those far distance days of
dreary classrooms and passing notes to the gels,
scored 2/10 SEE ME.)

True confessions . . . a little like the luck of the draw
and the Wellington crewman aforementioned
who came through against all odds . . .
9 out of ten of all the ones I fancied ( and
tried to really get to know) had fathers or mothers who
served in the RAAF. One of this bevy was Stephanie
from Casino, NSW. Her dad was a Watson. He and
his crew (Manchester or Lanc?) were MIA, their fate never
discovered. As with quite a number of kids of servicemen,
Steph never knew her dad. And he never saw her.

Again . . first wife's dad was adjutant to a Catalina squadron
based at Melville Bay near to Gove. He featured in the fairly
recent excellent book by Andrew McMillan , Catalina Dreaming,
in a chapter called The Cook's Lament. Not an altogether
complimentary reference either. He had the guard fire over the
heads of some locals (Yolngu) who had a camp on the outskirts of the
base, and who would come up to the cookhouse to be given
scraps by Alf, the cook in the book.

One quiet, mysterious and illusive one in the same class at Canberra High
School had a dad in the RAAF. AVM Geoff Hartnell. They lived
in Yarralumla. My friend the late GC Paul Metzler once made the comment
that Hartnell was a bloody good pilot, before he became chairborne.

Danny when you say . .I always was Kipling's Cat Who Walked by
Himself, and All places were Alike to Him....that does point to an
alter ego in some ways different to the author of numerous
posts pointing to a man who rubbed along pretty well with most types.
But who probably at the same time, kept his own counsel.
And survived by dint of more than a modicum of monkey cunning.

FantomZorbin
18th May 2015, 20:35
The last solar topee I saw was hanging up in Ernie Bedfords in Newark!!

Danny42C
18th May 2015, 22:02
kookabat,

Seems to be pretty conclusive now. "My" door must have been a "special" of some kind (it would have been in the centre of the roundel in your pic). The odd thing, as I remember, was that the other members of our "guard" expected that a door would be there, it wasn't a surprise.

ancientaviator62,

Don't they look smart ! But the first thing we did was to dump our "Bombay Bowlers" for something more comfortable. Having said that, must admit that these were more like the smaller and lighter "Babu" type worn by gang foremen, ticket inspectors etc as a badge of authority.

But what on earth have they used on them - Blanco?....D.


Geriaviator,

So it was not your day to die, after all! And you could chalk it up on your personal: "I learned about flying from That" file (which we all lug around in our memories, don't we?)

Best leave it to the professionals, or take an extra day (do the black/green funnels of the Belfast-Liverpool "Irish Boats" still sail?)

A splendid end to a splendid story. Any more? (and Pauline lives!)....D.


Fantome,

A pretty shrewd assessment! In this world of Facebook, Twitter and Lord knows what else, an old adage from my parents' time rings ever more true:

"The Names of Fools are like their Faces -
Always Seen in Public Places !"...D.

Salutations to all, Danny.

ancientaviator62
19th May 2015, 07:18
Danny,
we bought ours from the Base Exchange at Diego Garcia after an enforced stop due to a tech snag. I believe they were used by the US Marnine Corps band. What the helmets were doing there we never did find out. Perhaps a corruption of an order 'section and ref' ! Hangars /ac to hangers coat !

ancientaviator62
19th May 2015, 07:25
Geriaviator,
over Northern Canada in winter at around FL 250 our brand new Hercules decided that all four engines would surge and all four fuel low pressure warning lights came on. The a/c knew the solution and took us down to a (slightly) warmer part of the sky. Normal operation then resumed.
The water in the fuel was freezing and blocking the filters. We should have been using FSII to prevent this but 'they' had seen fit not to provide this important ingredient in the RAF fuel. It did eventually arrive.

Danny42C
19th May 2015, 15:26
ancientaviator62,

In January, 2008, BA Flight 38, a 777 from Peking (sorry, Beijing) flopped on LHR with the same trouble. I'm sure this FSII stuff is good, but a better idea is to drain the water off before you start.

The Daks out with us always did this every morning. Often got a cupful of water out of each tank (overnight condensation).

D.

Geriaviator
19th May 2015, 15:37
Thanks AA62, a frightening experience! I would like to know how you heavy haulers dealt with airframe icing. I have read that icing killed more bomber crews than the Luftwaffe, at least in the early days of WW2. The Stirling with its low ceiling seemed particularly affected, a couple being lost crossing the Alps on the way to bomb Turin. Were many WW2 aircraft fitted with boots etc?

I remember investigating an Oxford (or Anson) at Binbrook around 1950. The leading edges and props were liberally smeared with grease which I managed to transfer to my school trousers, with painful consequences when I went home. I found later that the 'grease' was Kilfrost anti-icing paste, does anyone know if it worked or not? Ppruners will be pleased to hear that Kilfrost is still a British business after 80 years, and still producing de-icing agents.

Danny, the Belfast-Liverpool boats you remember have not run for 30+ years, nor have Glasgow, Ardrossan, Heysham etc. Their quays are covered by the M3 motorway bridge. These days most people go by air, which set off my current ramblings: fellow passengers were annoyed one morning last month when we had to wait half an hour in the a/c for the de-icing wagon, but I was happy to see he took his time and sprayed plenty. One encounter with ice was one too many in my book!

smujsmith
19th May 2015, 22:50
Danny #7054.

As an ex Aircraft Ground Engineer on the "Albert" fleet, I can help AA62 out on that one. In the 6 years or so flying that I managed on the fleet, every Before flight servicing was accompanied with water sediment checks through each tank water sediment drain valve. Using a piece of equipment nicknamed the "pogo stick" to locate a 1/4 inch diameter plug into a 1/4 inch diameter socket, twelve feet above your head, and hidden by a rubber collecting cup, at "oh for goodness sakes" in the morning was not an easy challenge. We often drained and examined in to large polythene bags, allowing us to determine the amount of water in the sample. Amongst the Visiting Aircraft Flights in RAF Germany were were bad news, as they often found bags of fuel infesting the Houchin cable stowages after a Herk night stop. Curiously, this was in the days when FSII (Fuel System Icing Inhibitor) or AL38 was a standard mix of our fuel, I can only surmise the problems caused by Cladosporium Resinae was the reason for the checks. Hope that helps.

Smudge :ok:

ancientaviator62
20th May 2015, 06:36
Geriaviator,
the Hercules airframe de-icing system was via bleed air from the engines. The prop de-icer was electrical. Smudge knows far more about this than I do. Often the first indication of ice was when the ALM reported it after one of his hourly scan checks.
The sound of ice being flung off the props and rattling on the fuselage could really get your attention.
Over on the Hercules thread there is a story of how one Hercules built up so much ice on the radome that the captain could only just trim out the resultant nose heavy situation.
In some parts of the world the contents of the water drain check was a highly prized item. Paraffin for fuel !

BEagle
20th May 2015, 08:15
FantomZorbin wrote: The last solar topee I saw was hanging up in Ernie Bedfords in Newark!!

A fine establishment indeed! But the last time I rang him ages ago, he said that business was very poor as the RAF had been so decimated, particularly at training bases.

ancientaviator62 wrote: In some parts of the world the contents of the water drain check was a highly prized item. Paraffin for fuel !

That was still the case in Freetown in 2002. The locals would be underneath the VC10 wing hoping for some 'water drain' fuel almost before the engines had stopped. A well-meaning ALM also took them some secondhand clothes once, but that was a bit unfortunate as whoever got the clothes would be robbed by the rest.

Union Jack
20th May 2015, 12:33
Still there, wrecked up-country.

Somewhat ambiguous, dare I say.:)

Jack

Danny42C
20th May 2015, 17:24
BEagle,

Tell Ernie Bedford to buy in all the stock he can (should be plenty around now, cheap, as RAF appears to be downsizing). Bombay Bowlers would be a drug on the market, I would've thought - but then, what do I know?

What goes around, comes around.

D.

aw ditor
20th May 2015, 18:42
I trust that Ernie was not the one that drove the fastest Milkcart' in the West?

smujsmith
20th May 2015, 19:01
Danny,

I for one would second your assertion of popularity. What a fine piece of headgear to wear on ones weekly peripatetic amble. If someone knows where to get one, do tell, as they say. And, doesn't AA62 wear it so well !!!

Smudge :ok:

Warmtoast
20th May 2015, 20:10
Smujsmith

If someone knows where to get one, do tell, as they say Try the South American River place or eBay - plenty available from £11 upwards..

WT

OffshoreSLF
20th May 2015, 21:25
While many UK citizens were being trained to fly in the US & Canada, it would appear that some of our Russian allies were being trained here -
Coming Events @ Montrose Air Station Heritage Centre. Montrose visitor attraction. (http://www.rafmontrose.org.uk/events_calendar.html)


There was an item on the local ITV news the other night when the Granddaughter of one of Russian pilots was interviewed.


I found it a fascinating story!

smujsmith
20th May 2015, 22:10
Warmtoast,

Thanks for that, my new walking hat is on its way.

Smudge :ok:

Danny42C
20th May 2015, 23:45
Geriaviator,

So the green/black funnels are no more ! How about the I.O.M. "Packets of Steam" ? Seems that there is only "BEN-MY-CHREE" and an interloper "MANANNAN" left.

In my boyhood there was "BEN-MY-CHREE", "KING ORRY", "MANXMAN", "MANXMAID", "MONA's ISLE" *, (and other, forgotten ones, "TYNWALD HILL" ?). There was always one berthed at the Liverpool Landing Stage, red and black funnels like little Cunarders (brazenly parked outside the Cunard (HQ) Building ! Happy holidays at Ramsey in the sunny summers of the mid-thirties !

* I have a print of an old map of Anglesey, annotated "Olim" (formerly) "Insula Mona" (the island of Mona). Seems the IOM and Anglesey got mixed up somehow. (And there is Mona airfield on Anglesey).

On reflection, it occurs to me that you embarked on a 145-mile sea crossing on one engine ! (and did it again on the way back). You are a brave man, Sir !....D.

ancientaviator62,

Re: headgear. Now I come to think of it, the Marine bandsmen I saw at Pompey had a very similar white job. Looked very smart, too (but looks to be a high-maintenance item). Ties in what you tell me about Diego Garcia.....D.

Cheers, both (and Smudge, too, for his #7056 on the water-in-fuel problem).

Danny.

PS: We've been struck with Elephantiasis of the Posts again. Can someone do the honours? D.

smujsmith
21st May 2015, 19:25
Beagle #7058,

Clothing is a regular occurance for Ascot Airways. I remember a handling agent who collected "off cuts" of lashing tape at Dakar over the Falklands and subsequent re supply trips. No surprise then that after a few months his wife had unpicked the lashing tape and converted it in to a suit that looked both cool, yet indestructible (why does Alec Guinness come to mind). It never surprised me how people around the planet can make use of what we regard as waste. I'm sure someone benefitted from the ALMs clothing donation, a shame it may have been muggers though.

Smudge :ok:

Fantome
21st May 2015, 19:31
Ancient aviator's post 7047 shows a line of gleaming ivories,
putting one in mind of "You'll wonder where the yellow went . .
when you brush your teeth with Pepsodent."

A caption saying who is who and their various functions
would add interest. Whoever took the shot obviously
knew a thing or two about what to say to best get the
genuine smile. Nothing as banal as "watch the dicky-bird."

smujsmith
21st May 2015, 19:55
Fantome,

I suspect that the "photographer" may well have been the Ground Engineer, as the Flying crew are all there I think, including two ALMs. A smashing photograph though,mother young lady loadie on the right looks familiar, but I can't remember her name. I'm sure AA62 can fill in the details,many who took the shot.

Smudge :ok:

ancientaviator62
22nd May 2015, 07:35
Ref the 'pith helmet' pic from left to right we have Nav, Air Eng, AA, Captain (Jo B) Co, and the second ALM (Billy M). Pic was taken by the G/E and I then took one of him in the kit.
Billy M was very new on the squadron and this was a screened training trip trip. We has fuel leaks, a frame change at Bahrein (which included a complete re role to full roller and side guidance), and the enforced stop at Diego Garcia. This plus the chaos of the onload at Halim provided her with very good experience of a typical 'K' route.

Fantome
22nd May 2015, 09:11
If you have forgotten who she is then a reunion would be the go
THEN you might have something to report. . to titillate the listeners

ricardian
22nd May 2015, 09:47
I think these chaps knew they were being recorded! Still very laconic though.

OFgat19JldY

ancientaviator62
22nd May 2015, 10:28
Fantome,
sorry to disappoint you but I know exactly who the lady in the pic is.
I do not need a reunion to generate my memories. My log books usually suffice.

Geriaviator
22nd May 2015, 16:32
http://s724.photobucket.com/user/mabel343/media/india_zpse2qmorty.jpg.html

Many years have passed since Manxman steamed into Belfast, Danny, as long ago as the day Manx Airways took their Viscount across at 2000ft to avoid airways charges and frightened the life out of me when they passed underneath! There is a fast ferry service in summer, but Manx too is long gone. Today the three-legged folk visit us via a Czech airline operating a 19-seat Czech-built and registered LET-401.

Bravely or foolishly, I crossed the Irish Sea scores of times behind one engine though I did have immersion suit, SARBE, dinghy etc. My TM and later the Arrow were expensive enough at 7/8 galls per hour, the Aztec was very nice but guzzled 25gph as well as having two engines and two props to overhaul. Lucky Danny who could hurtle back to base in his Spitfire at 60gph :sad:

I would have liked to ask Cliff and Reg whether they found icing a problem but as always it's too late; and it was hardly likely to bother a VV in India I suppose!

Danny42C
22nd May 2015, 20:43
Fantome (your #7069),

There was a wicked political parody of that many years ago:

"You'll wonder where the George Brown went
- When Harold forms his Government"....D.

Geriaviator,

Although you'd armed yourself with all the mod coms, I still prefer to have the brown stuff on the map under me rather than the blue !

We were told that our Mk.I Spits (Merlin II), if you pulled them back to 1700rpm and -2lb boost (26in Hg to you youngsters), and leaned them out a bit, would keep you up @ 16gph (ie 5 hours endurance). (Never tried it, don't know if it's true). Full bore (3000 and +6½lb) would go through your 85 gallons in an hour. But that was plated on the panel: "Take off, or 5 mins combat only".

There was a (Fairy?) story going the rounds (to inspire confidence in the Merlin):

Seems the Rolls-Royce engineers decided to see how long one would run on full boost before something happened. They coupled it to a dynamometer, opened up and waited. At the end of a week it was roaring away happily and still giving rated power. Finally they overrode the ABC ("pressing THE Tit"), giving +9lb (say 48in) - IIRC - and sat back. It ran for 72 hours more before it blew up. Or so the story went.

Wonderful, nostalgic picture of the Geriaviator siblings! (seems your little sister had to rely only on her crowning glory, while you sheltered under a BB bigger than your head). Curious to see the palm leaf/bamboo "basha" walls of the Geriaviator MQ (just the same as ours in the jungle). Would have thought that in posh places like Poona (sorry, "Pune"), they would go in for something more substantial - after all they had a brick boundary wall, and had a pitched (corrugated iron ?) roof ....D.

Picture rather large, Geri, can you do the necessary?

Cheers both, Danny.

blind pew
24th May 2015, 19:15
frederick william spink keighley (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/announcements/deaths/deaths/12954212.frederick_william_spink_keighley/)
Texel (http://www.626-squadron.co.uk/willem25.htm)
Bill was laid to rest last Monday with a service in Piercebridge where his son has laid since June 1972.
Bill was 99.
He was joined the RAF before WW2 and told me a little of his history.
He was arrested by gendarmes during the Spanish civil war having decided to have a jolly with a pal along the Pyranees.
During the Battle of Britain he volunteered for a "one way" mission of a daylight raid on Germany...Churchill's idea of taking the heat off the fighter squadrons.
Having been shot up by Messerschmitts (the first pass killed his gunner) he headed for cloud cover where he lost the fighters. He described watching a propellor arching into the North Sea after the engine failed but said the Blenheim wasn't a problem on one engine...
After the second engine seized he did a 180 and managed to glide onto a beach of Texel.
After his wounds had healed he spent most of the war in stalag luft drei and participated in the death march.
The family was devastated after the death of their son...Jerry...my pal...in Papa India...the Trident that stalled after take off at Heathrow...but destroyed by what many of us perceived as BEA blaming Jerry for the accident.
Bill didn't speak about this although he read my autobiography with interest and asked me what was the point?
It was only after speaking to Sue - Bills daughter - who had found a drawer of correspondence between her parents and BEA, apparently trying to get the truth about the "accident", that I realised how much "protecting the establishment" had affected the family.
Whilst the recent National Geographic disaster program shifted the blame from captain key and SO Keighley it did so at the expense of the P3 - SO Ticehurst, Captain Collins on the jump seat and FO Flavell who was one of the pilots who had a preflight argument in the crew room.
IMHO an absolute disgrace when after over 40 years the truth should be known.
Bill was a gentleman - on my last visit I drove him along Swalesdale where his Grandfather had built a house - wonderful company although very deaf and loosing his site.
His hallway had a WW1 Camel propellor adorning it...a true aviator
RIP.

smujsmith
24th May 2015, 19:19
Perhaps you may have already answered this one Danny, but, during your time on the sub continent what was the attitude to the wearing of uniform, as opposed to being comfortable or practicable? I only ask as I often fell foul of "dress regs" when operating as a GE with Albert airways some years ago. The lack of thatch on top meant that many, hot and sunny places made it necessary to don a protective hat to allow me to work, sometimes for many hours, on top of an engine etc. I particularly remember a VC10 captain who really "lost it" having arrived on his air conditioned wonder jet, and decided to give me both barrels. Of course, I was fixing a broken aircraft, you guys were fighting a war. Any reminiscences about dress, uniform and flying clothing ?

Smudge :ok:

Danny42C
24th May 2015, 22:05
Smudge,

In India and Burma during the war, it was quite simple. By day you wore khaki cellular shirt or bush jacket and KD shorts, khaki woolen long socks and (according to taste), chaplis ("Jesus sandals") or sambhur skin "desert boots".*
Dusk-dawn it was bushjacket or long-sleeved shirt, KD slacks and desert boots. No underwear at any time (it would only give you "dhobi-rash"), and we had no civilian clothes.

* With thick sponge rubber soles (to insulate you from the hot ground) - colloquially "brothel creepers".

On the very, very rare parade, you wore KD tunic, with cellular shirt and black tie, and KD shorts or slacks and your black issue shoes (dredged from the bottom of your kitbag or tin box, and usually green with mould). As this was horribly hot, people only wore it if ordered. The tunic was the only thing that had brass buttons, but these were not sewn on, but the loop went through little "button holes", and was secured by brass split pins. This, of course, was to enable it to be "dhobied" after each wearing, as it (and everything else) would be soaked in sweat in the hot months.

On ops, it was a case of individual choice (cf my p.137 #2726 "The Well Dressed Danny"). You flew in your ordinary KD, with cloth helmet.

At the very end, the colour changed to Jungle Green - "bottle green battle-dress" (or "battle-green bottle dress !"), but I never bought any of that (all your drill and cellular cloth you bought, dirt cheap, from Stores or the "Officers' Shop"). A dherzi would run it up to measure for a rupee or so.

On your head, you wore your Cap SD, or the Aussie Bush Hat (never a "Bombay Bowler", although we were issued with them).

Danny. :ok:

BEagle
24th May 2015, 22:48
Quite why RAF groundcrew always appeared so scruffy and unkempt whilst working on aircraft was beyond me - you never saw USAF or other air forces' personnel so badly dressed.

Warmtoast
24th May 2015, 22:58
Beagle

I know what you mean, but as long as they do the job OK why worry?

Photo taken at Gan in 1958 (42-miles south of the equator) , so it must be hot!

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/Image2_zps93ad8059.jpg

Danny
OK it's 13-years after your WW2 stint in the Far East, but this 1958 photo pic shows how elegantly sartorial the RAF Nav wearing his white flying overalls of this Ceylon - Gan air-bridge Valetta is compared to his RNZAF counterpart wearing KD with slacks under the wing of the RNZAF Freighter at Gan as seen in the photo at the bottom. I assume the individually "tailored" white flying overalls were Changi village specials.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/HomewardBound1958_zpscfa0e349.jpg


Compare with Sgt Henry Moon NCO i/c ASF Gan as he greeted the arrival of the aircraft c/w with greasy rag and probably a spanner in his back pocket!


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/NZ5909withSgtHenryMoon.jpg

Danny42C
25th May 2015, 00:11
BEagle,

One reason might have been that they were still wearing the wartime UK issue KD. This was rubbish.

Warmtoast's first pic (and Sgt Moon !) is more like it ! But look at his second - the Sgt in the foreground has had his KD slacks pressed (just look at that crease !) And the Nav. looks like a Painter and Decorator.

Seeing all our chaps working stripped to the waist makes me think of the way we're now supposed to lather ourselves with Factor 15 before venturing out in the Mediterranean sun. Dr.LeFanu (D.T.) some years ago mentioned this: one of his patients, an ex-desert rat, observed that he'd been chasing Rommel all around the N.African desert for a year or two shirtless and had no skin trouble of any kind in the following 30 years.

My theory is that they were not motionless on a lounger, but active and so presenting fresh areas of skin to the sun every few seconds.

Danny.

ancientaviator62
25th May 2015, 07:11
That the RAF groundcrew always looked scruffy especially in warmer climes was a direct reflection of the crap working kit we were issued with. 'Cardboard ' KD', no lightweight overalls and often no real way of laundering the kit.
When I was in Fighter Command we did not even own the working overalls we were required to use. They were issued weekly on an exchange basis and if you were mates with the storeman or first in the queue you MIGHT get a set that were an approximate fit. And if it was your lucky day they could even be clean !
When I went aircrew we were issued with cardboard KD. This was uncomfortable to wear and never looked smart. Of course as soon as we could most would get some decent KD from Singapore or Hong Kong.
When I was on Hastings one of our Air Engs was mistaken for a porter at Lisbon airport when wearing his issue KD ! This incident ended up as a letter to Air Clues I believe but no improvement in kit was forthcoming.
On 48 at Changi we wore the usual Nomex flying overalls which were not ideal for that climate. The lucky ones would obtain an RAAF flying siut which was more comfortable in the heat and humidity.
And what was the nickname for the standard RAF flying overall ? 'Growbag' in my day. Says it all I think.

BEagle
25th May 2015, 08:09
When we deployed a pair of VC10K3s to Hawaii for a certain operation, the DetCo decided that, whilst on duty, we'd wear either flying coveralls (if available for flying) or RAF KD - but with 'Akrotiri village type' bondhu boots rather than black DMS shoes. Some of the groundcrew muttered about having to buy their own bondhu boots, but were told that if they didn't want to, then there were probably others happy to take their places on the Hawaii det!

Somehow the message hadn't got through to the 'science party' who'd also deployed. When some Chief Tech was rounded up by the Hickam SPs, he'd been wandering around the aircraft parking area with his survey equipment, but dressed only in shorts and flip flops.... The sort of thing they used to slop around in when they were working with the 27 Sqn Vulcan dets at Midway. From then on they were told to dress in the same manner as everyone else! The TCW team, who couldn't believe their luck as they were usually deployed to muddy parts of Salisbury Plain, were always very military in their dress and manner though.

In hot climes, RAF groundcrew sometimes adopted the ridiculous habit of rolling up their KD shorts so that the pocket linings dangled down below the cuffs - they looked quite absurd.

No doubt elfin safety has laid down appropriate standards these days?

Danny42C
25th May 2015, 17:57
BEagle,

".....they looked quite absurd..."

But a lot cooler ! The "Betty Grable" (ask Grandad) idea of rolling up shorts was popular in India, too. The issue KDs quite often hung below the knee. (Yes, I know you could get the same result with a pair of scissors, but your average erk was not too good at hemstitching).

Nobody bothered about it, we just got on with the war.

D.

smujsmith
25th May 2015, 19:04
Its sad that it seems that some, whose main duty was concerned with operating air conditioned aircraft around routes, often tropical in nature, believe that their own "immaculate" turnout could be maintained by personnel employed on heavy, physical work, in environments not conducive to such activity. I well remember my first overseas tour at Akrotiri, being issued with the "cardboard" KD of AA62s memory, and having the crotch rub, armpit sores etc as a result of attempting to be an airframe fitter whilst wearing it. Luckily, our resident bosses let practicality overcome the prejudices of visitors, who rarely underwent the discomfort. A walk from the exit steps to the crew bus is hardly "physical" effort. I would also argue, having done many deployments in both mainland USA and in concert with American forces, that they, like us, would get comfortable when necessary. I asked how in WW2, in Danny's experience, uniform requirements were adapted to suit the climate. Thanks for your insights Danny, I doubt though that an opportunity to snipe at "the groundcrew" is relevant.

Perhaps this is the smart US dress we should have been following;

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/dab475c7766f3ba60f5a40b82af796d3_zpsjuuleizw.jpg

Smudge :ok:

Fantome
25th May 2015, 20:59
the three blokes in line in the doorway appear to be sloping off to find
where to sit for the duration

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/HomewardBound1958_zpscfa0e349.jpg

Warmtoast
26th May 2015, 22:41
Fantome

These bods were very happy as it was "Tour Ex" for all of them and sitting anywhere on the aircraft I'm sure they'd have remained happy.
My recollection of PAX seats in the Valetta were that they were reasonably comfortable, I don't think they could be reclined, but for relatively short trips they were OK. And as the distance from Gan to Katunayake was ISTR only 640-miles, and with a normal flight time of around 3 hours 20 minutes, sitting upright wouldn't have been too bad.
For the longer legs that the FEAF Valettas flew i.e. Katunayake - Car Nicobar and on to Changi, sometimes via Butterworth, made one appreciate the refuelling stops where one could leave the aircraft and stretch one's legs.

Danny42C
26th May 2015, 23:03
Smudge,

I'm a bit suspicious about the "Enola Gay" (looks as if it might have been superimposed on another B-29 pic) . And if the seven there are supposed to be the aircrew, they're four short.

Here's a pic of (the real) Tibbets (from Wiki). Not our man, I think !:


https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQipCcKGbdRdfrx627hMdd3X4lswqxSkA41lL0ITWi ghCt-_VgOkzDPNw (http://www.google.co.uk/url?url=http://www.biography.com/people/paul-tibbets-253510&rct=j&frm=1&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ei=MvJkVdyGI8Gd7gbR74OYAg&ved=0CCEQ9QEwAQ&usg=AFQjCNFNFzyDAapSo4ovlrDw-qc1XaqZ-w)

But this is the real clincher (Wiki) - see the difference in the '82's.


http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/11/02/us/02tibbets.450.jpghttp://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/spacer.gifhttp://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/spacer.gif

United States Air Force, via Agence France-Presse — Getty Images

Brig. Gen. Paul W. Tibbets Jr. with his plane, the Enola Gay, in an undated photograph.



Assuming that this is a ground crew, then the only one "properly" dressed would be the Crew Chief (?) But note the pipe ! There is a whole Post to be written some time about the pipe craze in the war.

EDIT: "Enola Gay" were the Christian names of Tebbit's mother. It is difficult to imagine a similar thing happening in our more sophisticated times - (more's the pity).

Danny.

MPN11
27th May 2015, 08:20
Good spot, Danny42C :ok:

And the "G" of "Gay" is different too :cool:

smujsmith
27th May 2015, 18:31
Danny,

I fully agree with you, and posted the picture, believing it to be Groundcrew, not aircrew, as scruffy Herbert's like myself were on the receiving end of some criticism, which I took to be a jibe at RAF Groundcrew, as opposed the Groundcrew of "other" Air Forces. My point being that, in my humble opinion, RAF Groundcrew have never looked any more "absurd" (not my word) than the Groundcrew of any other Air Force. I certainly had not noticed any photoshopping etc which may have been done, I'm no expert on that. Thanks for highlighting it.

Smudge:ok:

Warmtoast
27th May 2015, 20:42
Re my post #7088 above
made one appreciate the refuelling stops where one could leave the aircraft and stretch one's legsI went through Car Nic a few times in 1956 – 1958, refuelling was done by the locally-based Indian Air Force personnel using an RAF supplied bowser. There was no terminal as such and on arrival pax disembarked and just hung around the aircraft to stretch their legs whilst it was being refuelled, as in the photo. Once refuelled we were off again ASAP.

My only photo of Car Nic shows just this.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Car%20Nicobar/Pig-CarNic1.jpg

Danny42C
28th May 2015, 17:51
Smudge,

I agree with you. Our groundcrew were just as scruffy as any other while on the job (which they did magnificently under very difficult conditions, with little protection from sun and rain, often through the night to keep us flying).

Looking at your pic, I am beginning to think that these seven may not be groundcrew at all, but just seven lads " 'avin' a larf" witn their doctored pic of the B-29 in the backgound. :p

Danny.

smujsmith
28th May 2015, 18:07
Danny,

That would not be a first I'm sure. I think that you have put my feelings about the "smartness" or otherwise of RAF ground crew in perspective. For obvious reasons I will always defend the reasons why maintaining aircraft was not always the "glamorous" existence that those who flew them might envisage. I suppose my real response to Beagle, who suggested that our ground crew look "quite absurd" should have been to ask him how many times he had done a toilet replenishment on a VC10 in his best blue/flying suit. Excuse my getting excited on the subject, but some suggestions do need a response. Now, having acquired Regle' book, and enjoyed it, I have to report it has been stolen by Mrs Smudge, who reckons it's far better than an aviation story. Praise indeed I reckon, but worthy of praise. Do you have a copy ? I can put you on the distribution list after SWMBO has completed the tome.

Smudge :ok:

Danny42C
28th May 2015, 22:25
Smudge,

Thanks, but daughter will get it up for me on Kindle for next birthday - seems a damn' good read from a remarkable man (sadly RIP).

He was Class 42A (the first) in the US Army Air Corps "Arnold Schools" (I was 42C, so just missed him). He said it was the finest flying school in the world.

Danny.

Pom Pax
1st Jun 2015, 16:33
Sept '51 driving through Denham, my Father slows up and appears to be studying the hedge.
Step-Mother:- "What are you looking for?"
Father:- "I left a jar of petrol for my motor bike in there."
"When?"
"1918"
Me:- "I think it will have all evaporated by now."
Father:- "But the jar still might be there."

Thankfully we didn't stop to look for it.

Danny42C
1st Jun 2015, 18:01
Pom Pax,

I don't know about m/bikes, but most cars of the period would have one something like this lashed on the running board, which was a very useful feature of cars (we ran a Vauxhall 12-6 [1938 vintage] as late as 1960, which
still had them). http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/m9qvu6NHt6-OqPcM68C-07g.jpg (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pratts-Shell-and-B-P-VintageTwo-Gallon-Petrol-Cans-A-Total-of-Seven-/171729210554)

(This thing will run you back £120 - ouch!) :uhoh:

The whole family could perch on them for picnics and shows and the like.

Danny.

FantomZorbin
2nd Jun 2015, 08:45
My father had one of those in the shed for years, it had POOL embossed on it for some reason. £120! - wish we'd kept it!!

MPN11
2nd Jun 2015, 08:49
Pool petrol was a standardised petrol in the days of rationing - the octane rating was variable!

Let Google be your friend, FZ ;)

(e.g. http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=1950-11-13a.1366.3 )

olympus
2nd Jun 2015, 11:30
Pool petrol aka pond petrol (due to its poor quality, I believe).

Geriaviator
2nd Jun 2015, 17:49
I remember pool petrol even though I wasn't old enough to enjoy it, the premium grades came in mid-50s I think: remember Esso Golden with its brilliant Tiger in the Tank campaign?

Pool was the 'utility' fuel of wartime and used for pretty well everything except aviation. It was about 70 octane while the avgas grades were leaded up to 100/130 octane, though the low-compression Gipsy Major (TM, Magister etc) would run on it.

I was mightily impressed when shown over a DB601 as used in many German aircraft. It had a small lever which retarded the ignition to enable the use of low-octane motor fuel albeit with reduced power. I've read that the development of fuels was as important as engine development in the quest for more horsepower.

Danny42C
2nd Jun 2015, 18:16
Well cut with paraffin, the stuff was - and on ration! Yet it could be further diluted (50/50) by more paraffin (9d a gallon), but off ration. at any ironmongers.

Old no-compression Standard longstroke would run on this mixture if it were warm. To cold start, take float chamber off carb, chuck away contents, fill with Ronsonol (any tobacconist), put back, crank, (usually) action !

By the time the mixture had worked through to the carb, with any luck, the thing would keep running (but the bobby on point duty would sniff suspiciously when you chugged past with a haze of blue smoke behind). But as everything else on the road was doing the same, it was only the aroma of paraffin stove that marked you out.

Happy days! (1946) :ok:

Danny.

LowObservable
2nd Jun 2015, 18:19
Speaking of changed meanings of words...

http://www.trbimg.com/img-5163127d/turbine/la-ol-extra-extra-illegal-immigrant-and-other--001/599/494x599

...not to mention the special circle of Hell reserved for headline writers who forget to read the story.

smujsmith
2nd Jun 2015, 19:36
Oh dear, Enola Gay, the last of the "wooftah" bombers ?

Smudge;)

Respect indeed to the crew, and ground crew of the aircraft itself.

Danny42C
2nd Jun 2015, 19:38
Low Observable,

Not to mention that (pre-Bomb), it was soberly estimated that the coming invasion of Japan (mounted from Okinawa ?) would cost a million (Allied forces) lives, most of which would be American, and the rest British Empire (including, very possibly, yours truly). The Japanese home armies would have to be destroyed to the last man (as we knew from experience all round SE Asia in the last few years). Japanese civilian casualties would be horrendous, as the conquest of Okinawa had just shown.

All this must be put in the balance against the terrible consequences of the Bomb in Japan. And, to remind ourselves, they did start it (at Pearl Harbor); so when all's said and done, they were responsible for their own misfotune.

That there are people (including, it would seem, some Associated Press editors and caption writers), who are still unaware of the distinction between the word "gay" (in the old, happy "toujours gai" sense) and the modern re-worked meaning, makes one despair. Was it for this that we have had compulsory elementary education in the Western world these last 100 years?

Danny42C

smujsmith
2nd Jun 2015, 20:09
"That there are people (including, it would seem, some Associated Press editors and caption writers), who are still unaware of the distinction between the word "gay" (in the old, happy "toujours gai" sense) and the modern re-worked meaning, makes one despair. Was it for this that we have had compulsory elementary education in the Western world these last 100 years?"

I think I'm well aware of the distinction between the two connotations Danny, I rather think I'm happy with the "toujours gai", but no fan of the modern derogation of the word. Perhaps I am the result of the failure of our education system.

Smudge:ok:

Danny42C
3rd Jun 2015, 00:00
Smudge,

We're in agreement here. Perhaps I phrased my remark badly.

Danny.

Fareastdriver
5th Jun 2015, 09:05
Seeing that things are getting a bit slack on this thread I will continue with my experiences in China. I mentioned Wenzhou on my post describing my trip from Tanguu to Shenzhen. I had been there before; flying to the first of that area’s exploration rigs.

There is a ridge of mountains inland from the coast of Eastern China that acts as a barrier to the flat lands of the Yangzte flood plain. This, over the centuries, has resulted in a population that is different from the rest of China. The have different languages, i.e. Hakka and Min, they have also been heavily influenced by western traders and missionaries. We were, for the first time since the Communist takeover of the country, the only foreigners there. We had, as normal, interpreters to sort out various problems with the locals but this led to difficulties as they could not understand the local language. Luckily there were sufficient who had learned Mandarin to be able to operate normally.

Wenzhou, over the past two hundred years or so had been heavily influenced by Jesuit missionaries. This was apparent by the number of churches; as from the Air Traffic cupola seven spires could be seen. Not all operating as during the Cultural Revolution Christianity was virtually wiped out and churches became police stations or similar.. However, there was, just a few miles from the airfield, a brand new cathedral sized church nearing completion which illustrated the new tolerance that had taken place. Years of lonely Jesuit missionaries had also impinged on the population. There were more redheads in Wenzhou than the rest of China put together. The area was famous throughout China for the beauty of its women and believe me, there were some real stunners.

The Chinese company had organised their part of the airfield. A temporary two storey office block with a passenger departure lounge and beside it was a blister hanger with associated engineering accommodation. This with a concrete taxi track from the main apron took a couple of weeks to put up. There was a brand new hotel behind the brand new terminal building and we were virtually the first guests. The standard was about UK 3* but there were a few shortcomings in the construction. There was a leak in the water system somewhere so the corridor carpets squelched a bit and the wallpaper had been applied before the plaster had cured so it was peeling up from the floor. It was supposed to be to international standard, the menus were in English and Chinese, but it was dreadfully expensive. No English tea or toast, unknown in that part of the world. We were paid a monthly allowance for food and suchlike and back in Shenzhen in our company apartments this was sufficient but not for hotel living. Just outside the airport were what were known as the garages; open fronted chop houses where all the raw materials were on display and you selected your choice and they cooked it for you there and then. Papst beer was only 4 yuan (30p at that time) a 485ml bottle so living became very affordable. They were very basic; no toilet, the midden out at the back was where you gave the rats a warm shower and as I have mentioned before the entertainment was watching a mother rat chasing and recovering her brood back to her nest under the freezer.

It did not take us long to have an international incident. The rig that we were going to service was being towed from Singapore through the Taiwan Straight, the sea between Taiwan and China. We had a request to put the survey party on boards who were going to position it on its drilling site. No problem; we got the lat/long, time, course and speed and the GPS forecast the position on arrival. The helicopter launched (I wasn’t flying it) and everybody was happy. Approaching the rig Taiwan Air Defence radar picked it up and launched their QRA. When their F15s punched into the stratosphere the Chinese Air Defence launched their Shenyang J8s so whilst our hero was changing over on the helideck the two sides were stalking each other from the respective borders of their ADIZs. There was a bit of a stink when they got back but I think ATC were in it deeper than we were. A day or so later the rig was in position and we could get started……………………………………….

Danny42C
5th Jun 2015, 16:18
Fareastdriver,

Spendid stuff ! Just what we want ! More, more !

Danny.

Fantome
5th Jun 2015, 16:24
more . . more . . give me more. . . so went the old song

Last week in Canberra, was getting some photo prints done at Harvey Norman, when a big young bloke called John who runs the shop noticed my prints had planes. Geese said he, there was a bloke in here a year or so back with a stack of prints to copy. They were all RAAF wartime subjects. Lots of squadron line ups of crews etc... When I asked if he knew the customer's name, he said it was Laddy Hindley. Well I looked up the name in the phone book straight away. Spoke to the man himself who said come over now if you like. That was at 1100. At 1200 we were having lunch together in his retirement village. By 1400 he'd told a lot of his life story. I finally left clutching a signed copy of his memoir called 'Joys and Dangers of an Aviation Pilot'.

Laddy enlisted in 1942. He joined 80 SQN in 1944 on P40s. Saw service in PNG and the SW Pacific islands. He later trained on choppers. Instructed on Hueys with 9 SQN at Canberra. Went to Vietnam. Awarded his DFC for service there.
Discharged, went back to PNG and Bougainville, flying choppers for civvie survey outfits. Gave it all away in 1988.
Last month the RAAF invited Laddy and his wife Lesley to fly Auckland return on a commorative flight in one of their Boeing C17s.

His book is a joy to read. He is forthcoming about many detailed aspects of a very full life. From a lusty young fella growing up in Goulburn . . . busting at the seams with adolescent testosterone. . . finding an older shiela who took down behind a hay shed . . to finding huge satisfaction flying a wide assortment of types . It is an explicit memoir, well illustrated, one of which is probably the first to be published showing three naked airman holding a black swan they have just shot with the wings spread to barely cover their wedding tackle. Laddy said he is not proud of the things he shot in his younger days, as after the war he became a hobby farmer with the a strong attachment to all the causes related to conservation and wildlife protection.

Fantome
5th Jun 2015, 17:13
A bit to add on VVs, in this case the RAAF, target towing at Tocumwal, and on the colour vision discussed a month or two back.

There are buried in the cemetery at TOC two pilots who died in the crash of their VV in 1944. The story is told by a veteran of that time that the two deceased were the perpetrators of sabotage that was going on round the base in the dead of night. Instead of being arrested, the CO of the base hatched a little plan about which he said not a word to a soul.
He ordered a gunnery exercise in which he alone would practice on the drogue towed by the pilots he knew were guilty as all get out.
How he managed to report the crash of the VV without implicating himself
in any way remains a mystery, although as ever various theories are advanced.

Colour vision - Maurice Brearley was a son of pioneer West Australian airman Norman Brearley. Maurice was an aeronautical
engineering graduate who went to enlist in the RAAF as a pilot in 1942. He failed the Ishihara colour vision test.
What he did to get round that little hurdle was to memorize all the plates in the book then re-enlist under an assumed name.
He passed his medical and a year later passed out at the wings parade at Narrandera EFTS. Maurice had not been in touch with his family for the past year or so. They were worried of course about his silence having no idea where he was or what he was doing. Who should take the passing out parade but his dad, Group Captain Norman Brearley. Pinning on his son's wings, the father muttered, 'I get the picture now son. But your mother, she's been worried sick'.

from connectweb.com -

Mini bio: former Pilot and Professor Emeritus remembered Lana Wilson / May 31, 2013

Who’s Who in Australia is deeply saddened to learn the passing of Professor Emeritus Maurice Brearley.
http://connectweb.com.au/media/306288/borntofly_leurabookscomau_350x562.jpg
Born to Fly: The Story of Wayne Blackmore' by Maurice Brearley


Maurice Norman Brearley was best known in the Australian education spheres for his academic work as Emeritus Professor of Mathematics at The University of Melbourne.
Professor Brearley held the Emeritus position for more than 20 years, taking the role in 1985, following a long stint as a Professor of Mathematics with the University as well as the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) Academy of Victoria that started in 1966.
Professor Emeritus Brearley began his career as a Pilot with the Royal Australian Air Force during the Second World War and shortly after became a Research Engineer with de Havilland Aircraft Company in the United Kingdom, before returning to Australia.


The Who’s Who in Australia entrant noted his recreations as piano and musical composition.
In 1981, he published a book ‘Born to Fly: The Story of Wayne Blackmore’.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Danny . . . .. . no idea whether Alex and Leigh Oxley (Laddy) Hindley are related. Stand by for what Laddy has to say.

Danny42C
5th Jun 2015, 17:15
Fantome,

Any relation to Alex Hindley (Wing Commander [Retd] OBE, AFC, who was my Boss at Valley (20 Sqn, '50 -'51) ?, - and a better Boss never lived !

Danny,

EDIT: Not hard to cook up a story when the witnesses are all dead ! Many VVs speared in with no known cause. D.

Fareastdriver
5th Jun 2015, 17:51
The rig was about 140 Nautical miles out. There was nothing en route so it was a straight line out from one of the airfield’s beacons. The beginning would track you over the small islands that were scatted off the coast. These were like little mountains with the land coming out of the sea at 45 degrees. It was then terraced all the way to the top and the inhabitants would live in clusters of boats in little harbours at the bottom. The GPS would keep you on the straight and narrow so there was little problem finding the rig. Despite that it was nice seeing it come up on the radar where it was supposed to be. We were well clear of Taiwan but for the last thirty or so miles I would duck down to 100 ft so as to be out of range of any radar, especially the US Navy.

The rig was the Nan Hai 5. Nan-South, Hai-Sea. It was an ex Pacesetter rig that was owned by a Chinese company. The Chinese had little experience in offshore drilling then so it was run by a mixture of American and British contractors. It was only fourteen years old so it had all the latest drilling kit, topdrives etc, incorporated. There had been a fair amount of seismic work done and the indications were very optimistic. The rig was supplied with hardware and victualling from Wenzhou. They had built a harbour capable of handling six supply boats in three months but their Western food still had to come from Hong Kong. We couldn’t get any in Wenzhou so this is where a long tradition between helicopter pilots and rig crews came in.

We supplied them with blue movies and they supplied us with goodies.

Getting blue movies was easy. In Shenzhen there was a stall that sold pirated VCDs that included everything from the latest blockbusters to the best that the Californian grunters and groaners could manage. You couldn’t miss the stall; it was outside the police station. A message went down, the necessary were purchased, converted to VHS because that was all the rig had and we could run a programme change ever five days. In return we got freshly baked bread, real bu’’er, jam and stacks of choccies of all sorts. The ultimate was on Christmas day where they laid on a trip in the morning and it came back with a full roast turkey dinner for all the Brits on the site.

There were two helicopters involved; one British registered and one Chinese. They flew with a national crew on alternate days; the other crew and aircraft on stand-bye for SAR, there being nothing else. In fact about half way out was the main shipping route between Japan, Korea and Singapore so there was a multitude of massive container ships crossing your route. The ships were so big that it was difficult to count how many containers they had on the superstructure in the time available to count them. Should you have a problem and ditch in the shipping lane the first worry was getting run over by one of them. Should they see you then they would probably just pass your position to a maritime authority. They would require several miles to stop and there was an awful lot of money tied up in the containers. However, we would still be able to launch the stand-bye and be there with a winch before they could turn it round and steam back.

Our dispersal was just off the main apron and when the Chinese aircraft was en route our British one would stand outside ready to go. The company logo and the G- registration would attract instant interest from the fixed wing airliner crews passing through. Many a time my eyes would flutter as the slender scarlet shapes of Shanghai Airlines stewardesses were coming over for a look see. Sometimes there would be some problem on the airway with the Air Force so everybody was grounded for a couple of hours. We would then have the whole lot, Air China, China Southern, Shenzhen Airlines, to name a few. It was hell, believe me, it was hell.

We only did about three trips a week so we weren’t rushed off our feet. Our free time was more interesting for us than for our Chinese pilots and engineers. Foreigners were a rarity so when you sat at a table in a teahouse people would practise their English on you. I would regularly have about seven schoolchildren with their books going through their lessons with me to get the pronunciation correct. You couldn’t do that in the UK, you would have to be vetted first. The Chinese crews had a language problem. As I mentioned before they couldn’t understand the locals so they ended up in their, separate hotel, playing non-stop Mah Jong………………………………..

Danny42C
5th Jun 2015, 23:27
Fareastdriver,

"Far away places with queer sounding names......." How these old names tug at the heartstrings of us chaps "well stiricken in years" when we look back on the days of our not-misspent-enough youth.

This is wonderful stuff. You have the "Gift of the Gab", Sir! Keep it up!:ok:

Danny.

pzu
6th Jun 2015, 23:57
From today's Sunday Mirror

Two RAF(VR) veterans who served on attachment with SAAF Liberator Squadrons during WWII reunited after some 70 years

World War Two RAF heroes reunited after 70 years after finding each other on Facebook - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/world-war-two-raf-heroes-5835783)

Ken Todd was rear gunner on Liberator VI KH150 'R' on night 10/11 September 1944 with my late father Ken Crossley (mid upper) in Capt Keith Carter's crew

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

Fareastdriver
7th Jun 2015, 09:24
Going downtown was easy, you caught a trishaw. This was a three wheeler bicycle with a settee between the rear wheels. As long as you driver didn’t break wind you were OK. We would catch one just outside the airport and it was about 2 yuan to Longwan, a small town between the airport and Wenzhou proper. He would drop us off at the bridge leading into the town and in this area were a few stalls telling bits and pieces. I had an interpreter with me for the first time and I noticed an old man in a stall that was shaped like a sentry box. Just room for him with the bottom closed and a small shelf in front of him. It what was on the shelf that stopped me. I had seen it before when I visited the Singapore CID when I was stationed in Singapore……

It was cut ball of raw opium.

I asked my interpreter to confirm it. He only replied that it was bad stuff. I went over to the box; the interpreter was having nothing to do with it; you can get a sudden headache being caught with opium. I knew that before the Revolution in 1949 opium use was widespread; they had a war named after it. Come 1949 it was banned but I also knew that because so many people were addicted to it, including a few very senior members of the politburo, a licence could be obtained to continue buying and using it. What I had stumbled on was the last of the old dope peddlers serving at that time a rapidly diminishing band of customers.. He was an old boy with the biggest smile I had seen on a Chinese man; so opium must be good for you. As I approached him he waved both palms of his hands to indicate that I could not buy any. I wasn’t interested so tactfully I turned away and proceeded towards the town. As an posrscrpt he wasn’t there three months later so he must have joined his customers in that big opium den in the sky.

The town centre was absolute bedlam. These were the days when all Chinese drove with one hand on the horn. The vehicles were small buses that followed a route but stopped anywhere to pick up and let down. Moving out onto the road again was merely a signal and a long blast on the horn, followed by a orchestral sounding of horns by all the others trying to stop him coming out. The were no modern shops, they had only just started in Wenzhou itself, so they looked exactly like they did a hundred years before. You could, however, get just about anything you wanted. Wenzhou wasn’t known as the counterfeit capital of China for nothing. There was a Philishave there which was, apart from the weight, identical to my own. What gave it away was a normal plug and wire to the 220 volt motor in the shaver as opposed to the transformer plug and 9 volt of the Philishave. You would find out the difference if you did a wet shave.

The task I had that day was to find a toaster. This was for the bread that we were being supplied with by the rig. I didn’t hold out much hope, it was bad enough trying to get one in Shenzhen, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. The interpreter wasn’t a lot of use; he didn’t know what a toaster was either so I had to draw pictures to show them how it worked. I went from electrical shop to electrical shop and was getting nowhere and then we came a second hand goods shop with old extractors, water heaters etc. I went through my spiel again with the same blank looks but on this occasion they called to the back of the shop and out came granddad.

He was like something out of a Chinese Opera without any makeup. He was old, incredibly old with a thin moustache and beard that drooped down to his waist. Behind him was a fully waxed pigtail that was just as long. He wore a full length black silk embroidered gown and it was topped off with a small silk bonnet. I couldn’t see his feet but it sounded as if he was walking with clogs or wooden sandals. I put my hands together and bowed to him as a sign of respect for his age and tried to explain as before. He thought for some time and then gave directions to his minions. They disappeared into the back, out again for more directions, in, out, in again and then they found it.

It was in a tatty brown box without any manufacturers name on it. I lifted it out and it weighed as if it had been made out of armour plate. It looked the part; two slots for bread with the elements inside and a variable control knob on the outside. It had an American flat pin plug which was normal for China but I didn’t try it out as it was full of dust and it would probably cause more harm than good. 10 yuan (70p) was all that they wanted so without further ado I bought it and returned to my hotel.

The next day I presented out engineers with the toaster. They took one look, took it outside and blew it out with a nitrogen bottle. There were no instructions so we set the dial to one quarter point and with careful use of a hacksaw, no breadknife, we cut two slices to fit. We didn’t do a dry run first; if we had we would have noticed the intensity of the elements. We dropped in the bread, gravity did it all so it wasn’t necessary to push down the handles and we plugged it in. Some thing was happening and in a short time came the aroma of toasting bread. The time reached zero, a buzzer sounded and we started collecting together the butter and jam. Our backs were turned for only a few seconds but that was enough for it to start turning it into charcoal biscuits. A panic stricken unplug before the Chinese called the fire brigade and we went to plan B.

This involved a strip down and circuit analysis. The first problem was finding a flat bladed screwdriver the correct size to unscrew the bottom. All the tools we have were cross head or small flats for instruments. Once that was done the detective work started:

There were no springs on the handles; they were there just to lift the bread out.
The timer had a push in/out function that switched it on/off and the rotating timer just rang a buzzer but did not switch it off.
The size of the wiring indicated that it was rated for 110 volts.
How it got to Wenzhou we had no idea. It was probably a 1940s American model but being Wenzhou it may well have been a counterfeit copy that wasn’t exported.

Once we had established this we did a dry run. This is when we noticed that the elements were almost incandescent. However, our greeny (aircraft electrics) stated that they would probably last until a replacement arrived. We phoned back to Shenzhen, declared TOS (Toaster Out of Service) and they promised that the next person going into Hong Kong would buy another and it would be dispatched tout suite………………………………………..

Danny42C
7th Jun 2015, 23:26
FED,

Another winner ! It sounds as if the perils of War were as nothing compared to the likelihood of electrocution in postwar China !

In the early days of married life, I bought a 9d booklet on some market stall about "Home Electical Ideas" (or some such). My imagination was fired by a suggested design for a DIY electric kettle, which was high on our wish-list, but which cost good money, and that was tight at the time.

The idea was based on a 9" flan tin, which you filled with fireclay cement, into which you embedded the spiral wire element of a 1kw electric fire (you could get these coils loose in those days). A thin "pie crust" of fireclay over the top was the final stage, smoothed level to form a base for the standard tin whistling kettle which completed the ensemble. All depended on adequate insulation from the (dried) fireclay. I think we were still on 2-pin plugs then. I connected up and hoped for the best.

It was not a success. Whether I had allowed sufficent time for the "filling" to dry out, or the coil had wriggled down to make contact with the flan tin, I know not, but I produced some truly spectacular flashes and blew every fuse in the house. After which I acceded to the despairing pleas of Mrs D, binned the lot, and we saved up our pennies for a Morphy-Richards.

D. :=

Wander00
8th Jun 2015, 10:51
Danny, et al (regarding "petrol", etc): I recall my Dad, in the early 50s I guess, talking about "Russian petrol" and "TVO" (tractor vapourising oil) (funny, cannot remember breakfast). What were they?

pzu
8th Jun 2015, 12:55
Russian petrol - don't know but possibly just a low octane/poor quality import

TVO - when I started with Shell in the late '60's, we used to stock TVO, it was just a lighter cut/grade of Paraffin used in motor vehicles that normally started on petrol/mogas and then switched to TVO, was Dyed to differentiate for HMC and commonly used in Tractors etc

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

Pom Pax
8th Jun 2015, 15:47
Agricultural & marine petrol was dyed red. So perhaps called "Russian petrol".
Can't remember tvo being dyed but can recall "Esso Blue" adverts for domestic paraffin.

mikehallam
8th Jun 2015, 22:51
FWIW. I still use a TVO/Petrol engined Ferguson TE20 tractor. It has a two compartment fuel tank - one for each liquid & selected to feed the carb. via a two way tap.

I don't bother with the TVO equivalent nowadays (there is a formula) as it never vaporised well enough and the scraper rings took a little into the sump so apparently it 'made' oil. In fact it was of course the paraffin going down & diluting the oil which wasn't a 'good thing'.
Cheaper to save the bearings and for the relativley low hours per year petrol is always in both tanks.

Used it today in fact, with PTO driving a 6 ft topper, to cut the airstrip here in sunny Sussex.

mike hallam.

Danny42C
8th Jun 2015, 22:52
Wander00, pzu and Pom Pax.

Thinking myself back into my boyhood in the '30s, I recall that there was a cheap imported Russian petrol. It sold under the title of "Russian Oil Products", or R.O.P. It was scornfully dubbed "Rotten Old P#ss", but I suppose it worked, otherwise it would not have sold at all.

"TVO" and the like (Tractor Vaporising Oil) were essentially Derv. Supplied for normal use, and subject to excise (petroleum) duty, the stuff was pretty colourless, as was the domestic heater paraffin, dyed ("Esso Blue") to taste by the manufacturer.

TVO was also supplied, duty free, to agriculture for use in tractors and stationery engines. This was dyed red, so that the zealous C&E would attend agricultural shows, farmer's markets and the like, to check Farmer Giles's muddy new Mercedes 500D was not running on "red" Derv.

Many and various were the subterfuges adopted to deceive our noble public servants. One was to fit a sort of giant alloy cigar tube, or cod-piece, into the filler inlet. The tank would be full of red derv, but the insert would contain only innocuous plain (legal) stuff. Hopefully, the Exciseman would not realise that the tube he was sucking on had not reached tank bottom.

A better idea was to go to source. The system was this: a tankerful of clear derv, but intended for farm use, had to go out of the refinery via a single, guarded exit. There was stationed an old chap with the red dye barrel and a gimlet eyed Customs man. If the red dye was not put in before his very eyes, the tanker did not go out. Quantities used were faithfully recorded.

Clearly the answer was to "get at" the old chap. C&E would be a harder nut to crack, but they found some way to distract him from his duties (the "honey trap"?), the tanker(s) got out with all the paperwork OK, and certain selected retail outlets got heavily discounted street-legal Derv wholesale.

Only snag was: the dye had to be accounted for, too. The old chap soon had a 50-gallon drum of the stuff that shouldn't exist; he poured it down the drain; but local anglers started to complain about this pinkish water; the whole profitable business unravelled; people went into durance vile, and that was that.

Many were the fables that circulated about this red stuff. One of the most captivating was this: the Republic of Ireland ran a similar scheme, but their dye was (not surprisingly) green. The story was that, if you mixed it with the red stuff North of the border in the correct proportion, the colour would vanish and you were home and dry (I cannot vouch for this). And of course, there was no lack of snake-oil additives which purported to produce the same result. They did not work.

Danny. :=

cockney steve
9th Jun 2015, 00:09
I can confirm that my father referred to ROP and it's origins, per Danny's post.
An Aussie Merchant seaman was adopted by the parents, he worked tankers and said they would walk along the deck tipping powder -dye into the various tanks before unloading....the main ones I remember, Regent Green, Aladdin pink, and of course, the famous Esso Blue.
In the late 1960's I lived at Leigh on Sea on the Thames Estuary. there were lots of boats with Morris Vedette Petrol-Paraffin engines (basically a 1500cc converted car engine) start on petrol, warm-up, then switch to parafffin .
Petrol 4/6 a gallon,(22 1/2P) paraffin 1/10 a gallon (~8p) Prices seemed very stable, back then, other than the chancellor's annual hike on beer, spirits and fags (only posh people drank wine! I was about 17 before I tasted any!)

in the 80's I ran a village garage/filling station I sold paraffin, there were 2 grades- "premium" which I could dye with a powder left by my predecessor (a tablespoon to 300 gallons! lovely deep blue!) and 28 second burning oil....which is "impure" paraffin, -light heating- oil....the heavier ,35 sec oil is also known as gas-oil or "red" or , in it's clear form, Road diesel.

"Slab" Murphy had a farm straddling the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic tankers of "red" would drive in from the North, tankers of "white" came out through the Republic, to find it's way on the ferry and the UK market.

Murphy is purported to have supported the IRA and boasted thet whatever bright chemist the Customs employed to mark "Red diesel" he would pay more to a brighter bod who could remove all the C&E markers. Red is less than half the price of road-fuel!

Apologies for thread-drift, hope it contributes something.

Geriaviator
9th Jun 2015, 17:57
I'm sorry to say that all Cockney Steve says is true. Danny notes that the Republic of Ireland ran a similar scheme, but their dye was (not surprisingly) green. The story was that, if you mixed it with the red stuff North of the border in the correct proportion, the colour would vanish and you were home and dry.

Not quite, but both products can be laundered by various processes involving acid and fuller's earth etc. The result is very dodgy diesel which wrecks fuel injection systems and tons of dangerous sludge dumped in country areas. Large quantities are illegally exported, if you tank up diesel at very low prices expect a huge engine bill!

To return to thread, my father recalled an MU where Lancasters were delivered from the factory, test flown, snags remedied, then taxied round the airfield, gear up with engines idling, and cut up for scrap. Apparently the contract had to be completed ...

Three hapless airmen took the avgas tank drainings for their own motorbikes and ancient cars. The slow-burning avgas burned the exhaust valves, and Their Airships had them court-martialled for taking Her Majesty's avgas. They should have allowed it to drain from the edge of the dispersal and pollute the surrounding area, this being the approved procedure.

Wander00
9th Jun 2015, 18:18
Danny et al - many thanks. now I that my long term memory is OK, what can I do about my short....................what's that -

Danny42C
9th Jun 2015, 18:34
cockney steve,

4/6 a galllon, forsooth! In my young days it was 1/4, and ROP undercut it @ 1/3 or 1/2. And I still recall the headlines (just prewar) when 20 ciggies went down from 1/- to 11½d !

I'd quite forgotten the twin-tank marine engine, but that solution was hardly practicable in a road-car.

Our ever-patient Moderators allow considerable latitude on this Thread (this has made it into the most popular Forum which it is).

Danny.

Fareastdriver
9th Jun 2015, 19:11
I have been fortunate to have travelled over a large part of China. Many places I have been to have never seen a Westerner before. One gets used to young children hiding behind their mothers skirts because I am a ‘gweilo’, a white ghost that comes into naughty children’s bedrooms at night. Over the twenty odd years that I have been there, I have seen 500,000,000 people lifted from abject poverty to having something in life worth living. That still leaves another half a billion who are waiting.

Just over the fence was a farmer and his whole life revolved around about half an acre. At one end was a big shed where he lived with his family, one wife and one statuary child. His little acre was solid with vegetables in every stage of growth and every morning he would spend two or three hours with two large watering cans feeding the crops with diluted night soil. He had already been up before daylight so that he could cut that days produce to take to the farmers market in Longwan. On the way he would stop by a man with a hosepipe who would, for a few fen, douse his crops with water so that they weighed more when they arrived. He never stopped sowing and planting all day apart from meals and this was in winter. His collective daily produce would probably realise about 20-25 yuan, six days a week. Assuming everything went well he would have an income of about 7,000yuan; at that time £470 a year. Before the reforms in 1978 he would only have had what the Collective would have given him.

There was an MD80 in China Northern colours with a Hainan Airlines crew that would fly Hainan-Guangzhou-Shanghai and then to Wenzhou for a night stop. The next day it would reverse the route. There seemed to be three crews that did this roster continuously and two of the pilots we got quite friendly with.

At this time China’s licensing system was not in accordance with IATA. A Chinese national licence was in Chinese only as were most of their let down plates. This restricted the holder to Chinese airspace and he could not fly overseas until he had a foreign going licence similar to an internationally accepted ATPL To pass this he had to pass an English exam and an international navigation paper. This meant that he had to be familiar and be able to fly procedures according to Jeppersons. This was difficult because it was almost impossible for them to get hold of a set of Jeps.

But we had them.

We came to a mutually satisfactory arrangement. They would practice procedural English whilst studying and being prompted by us with our Jeppersons. In return they would buy the beer. The bar used to close at nine and one evening at that time we were in full learning mode. The problem was solved by the captain sending his steward out to the aircraft and he returned with a slab of Princess Lager from the aircraft’s galley. We didn’t have early takeoffs as we had to wait for our pax to fly in but they did. I don’t know what their company’s regs with regard to bottle to throttle was but it was way less than ours. As time went by the Chinese aviation system came closer to ICAO standards. Towards the end of my flying days they stopped pilots flying with an endorsement for their foreign licence and we were required to get a Chinese ATPL(H) and I was over sixty-five at that time. In answer to our query CAAC said that if I passed the exams and the medical I would get a licence. This I did and at sixty-seven I may well have been the oldest commercial pilot in China.

The time came when the NH 5 had finished it task and was going down south. It was being replaced by an all Chinese rig so they did not need white eyes up front. We would return to Shenzhen leaving the Chinese machine to carry on. SAR? no problem.

Before we left there had to be a company dinner. You do not mess about with company dinners in China. You find the best restaurant and order the best food, lots of it. The Chinese captains organised it in a fabulous place in Wenzhou. You have to be careful dining as a guest. Every one of your hosts, all fifteen of them are honour bound to challenge you to ‘Gambie’; basically to throw down a drink as fast as possible. Fortunately the Chinese beer was a licence brewed Papst which most Brits can drink continuously so one after the other challenging you was easy enough.

There were the usual speeches to which we replied on how good the co-operation had been-it had. Then one of the co-pilots gave a speech addressed to me. To get it into perspective I was a fairly heavy smoker in China. (When in China----). There were no rules about smoking in the cockpit so I would continue to get through my 40/day at 50p/packet. The co-pilot described how everybody liked to fly with me because they could always find their way back to base. They just followed the dog ends in the sea. They then presented me with a fiery dragon table lighter which is still one of my favourite possessions.

The next day I flew to Xiamin, lunch, then routed via Shantou and along the coast to Shenzhen. The next time I routed that way was slightly different but I have already described that.

I will be giving this a rest now as I shall be travelling some.

FED

Danny42C
9th Jun 2015, 20:42
FED,

I suspect I am not the only one to say: "Thank you for your absorbing Posts, FED, have a safe journey and let's hear from you again, soon !" :ok:

D.

smujsmith
9th Jun 2015, 22:15
AAs a young lad, 11 to 15, 65-69 I grew up working on the farm of Mr Joss Holland of Edingale in Staffordshire (Master of Edingale). Famous for his breeding of shire horses, a simple Google will back up my claim, we used tractors in the winter months when the fields were wet and boggy and horses as power during the summer months. Our farm boasted three tractors, two Aliss Chalmers type B and one Type A (a three wheeler) that all ran on TVO (Tractor Vapourising Oil), in later years the smell of burning AVTUR supplied flashbacks to those tractors, at the end of the day, paraffin smells the same, however it is burnt. The tractors had been shipped over the Atlantic during the war years, at great risk so would have far more value in reality than the price paid by "Joss"

As an aside I offer an amusing, to me anyway, incident, that occurred whilst employed on the farm as a 12 year old youngster. We (there were about three of my age) were sent to a field one day to disperse a large cowcrap pile across the local landscape, muck spreading we called it and it required that us, the lads, loaded muck into the bed of a trailer with a built in conveyor belt and spinning paddles (designed to disperse the manure) all driven by the wheels through a gearbox. Mushie Hallam, yep, that was Mr Hallams nomenclature, was to drive the type A tractor that day, and off we went. By lunchtime we were well down the "muck pile", and, having no washing facilities took "pot luck" on hygiene whilst shoving our jam butties down our faces. As the afternoon drew on, we reached the bottom of the year old pile, which had been underpinned with rubble to help drainage. Somewhere in our frantic forking, one of us managed half a house brick amongst the load. Resting, and watching Mushie drive his line we were amazed to see the brick, flipped by the paddles on the back of the muck spreader, hit him smack bang on the back of the head. The Allis type A, a very light on its one front wheel tractor, and having a hand throttle, continued on its merry way. Mushie by this time was completely non compus mentis. Hitting the hedge at the end of its line, the tractor reared up on its back wheels, as the front one was busy trying to demolish the hedge, the engine, powered by TVO continued to dig two large ruts in the field. As 12 year olds I think we responded well, by one of us going the 2 miles back to the farm to obtain a conscious, responsible adult to deal with it. The responsible adult duly turned up and shut the tractor down, which was now down on its axles, and needed the larger type B to drag it out of its hole. Mushie was fine after he was given a cup of tea by Mrs Holland, and allowed a second rich tea biscuit to accompany. 50 years later I have no problem ever recalling that event.

The three Allis Chalmers we had all ran on TVO (Tractor Vapourising Oil) and were hand cranked. There was a switch, and two fuel tanks. A small petrol tank and a much larger TVO tank. Crank it up on petrol, get the engine warm then switch it over to TVO. I did my driving course at 13 years old (on the farm) and remember well the starting sequence. As an aside, and many years later I was told by a fellow American C130 ground pounder that in emergency the "Herk" could run on whisky. I eventually went to sleep in my hammock, crossing the pond, trying to work out how many double Glenmorangies that would waste :eek: I apologise to our mods for any diversion I might be responsible for, I claim mercy on the grounds that the three tractors concerned, like Danny, arrived in Britain to do their duty during the war years. The abuse of Scottish Whisky is a thing only an American serviceman could contemplate.

Smudge :ok:

Danny42C
10th Jun 2015, 00:56
Smudge,

If your "Mushie" were still in the saddle when the tractor started on the hedge, then he was very lucky that it didn't rear up and flop back on him, or he'd need more than tea 'n biscuit !

That Scotch should even be contemplated for such a purpose is sacrilege enough, but Glenmorangie ! You should start with the Indian (and Japanese ?) counterfeits, then take out all our blended stuff first, before resorting to such desperate measures.

I believe that, in principle, all hydrocarbon fuels from bacon dripping upwards should serve as diesel fuel, and I suppose it makes no odds if ethyl or methyl alcohol in any of its later guises is sprayed into the flame cans, provided it will ignite. But what a lovely aroma from the jet pipe if it were a single malt !

I must now take a soothing draught of the dark waters of the Liffey to restore my mental equilibrium. :ok:

Danny.

EDIT: Gentlemen, today is the 10th.

Molemot
10th Jun 2015, 14:10
Back in 1980 when I was first roaming the French canals in my little boat, I came across another Brit in Epernay. He had a splendid ageing wooden craft...and an engine that ran on TVO; unavailable in France. He told me that he carried numerous jerry cans and whenever he needed fuel, he would take a taxi to the nearest airport and fill them with avtur!! The bowser types would ask what it was for...and blench when told it was for his boat!! Probably visualising a Donald Campbell "Bluebird" type vessel.....

Danny42C
10th Jun 2015, 19:14
Molemot,

No expert, but wouldn't diesel work ?

D.

Molemot
11th Jun 2015, 09:11
TVO is neither fish nor fowl....this from the Friends of Ferguson Heritage...

RECIPE FOR TRACTOR VAPORISING OIL
There must only ever be 2 ingredients in TVO


Petrol (unleaded is absolutely fine for a Ferguson tractor) 98 Octane
28 Second Heating Oil 20 Octane

Aim for an Octane value between 55 and 70


55 if doing very hard work
70 if doing topping and the like

To give you some idea of the sums:-


1 petrol and 1 heating oil comes out at 59 Octane
2 petrol and 1 heating oil comes out at 72 Octane
1 petrol and 2 heating oil comes out at 46 Octane
Petrol on its own is suitable for road runs (with the heat shield removed).

Octane is not the only factor, but is provides a good guide line

Diesel fuel is designed to cause ignition by compression and will encourage pinking. It is not designed to burn in TVO tractors, and no upper cylinder lubricant is required in these tractors, so do not use anything other than petrol and heating oil.

Using fuel which does not burn completely will destroy the lubricating properties of the oil and that (in a Ferguson TE tractor) will result in wear to the cam shaft bushes and then loss of oil pressure from cam shaft bushes. Loss of oil pressure will, then result in damage to the crank shaft. Lubricating oil in a TVO tractor's engine should be changed according to the Tractor Instruction book.

YLSNED...!!

Wander00
11th Jun 2015, 14:44
Crikey, amazing what you learn on this forum. Owning a little grey Fergie is on my bucket list, although I did drive one at a gliding club in the Midlands years ago

Geriaviator
11th Jun 2015, 17:53
Many's the furrow I ploughed on my neighbour's wee Fergie diesel. Does anybody remember the Fordson tractors which were fitted with road tyres and mudguards and used for airfield use? I think most RAF haulers were David Browns but I do recall Fordsons somewhere, maybe Binbrook in late 40s?

The Fordson ran on TVO and a friend has a preserved one, complete with magneto ignition. It's a monster of evil disposition, hand starts (the only way) can not so much break the wrist as hurl one into orbit :ouch: The Fergie of half the weight runs rings round it, but of course you need the weight to haul a Lancaster etc.

Danny42C
11th Jun 2015, 18:01
Molemot,

I sit at the feet of the Master as a Seeker After Enlightenment ! (Truly, YLSNED).

I remember, some years ago, there appeared on the market a device consisting of a string bag containing a number of tin (?) alloy "marbles". These you lowered into your tank on a piece of string. They were supposed to act as a sort of catalyst, encouraging better combustion and allowing the use of much lower octane fuel, but without being consumed themselves. They were supposed to give you 10% more mileage and less coke build up.

Verisimilitude was added to this story by the fact (?) that the inventor was said to have been a Merlin fuel chemist during the war, and had gone over to Russia, where they were having trouble with the Spitfires and Hurricanes we'd shipped out to them, on account of the 65 Octane stuff the Soviets had got. Seems he developed this wizard wheeze then; the Merlins were happy with the result. Or so the story went.

A few moment's calculation showed me that, at the price they were, I should be dead before I reached payback stage with them, so I was more intrigued than tempted, but the owner of the garage I then frequented had tried the things in the old, big, petrol BMW he was running and swore by them.

Did you ever hear this tale, and what do you think of it ?

Danny.

EDIT: Anybody ?

Onceapilot
11th Jun 2015, 19:50
Danny, Did these balls look like cobblers?;)

OAP

Danny42C
11th Jun 2015, 22:59
Onceapilot,

Very probably,

Danny (once a pilot !) ;)

FantomZorbin
12th Jun 2015, 08:29
Jenkins


That bl***y Vanguard!! Once had to drive across the Pennines in one, fortunately the Old/Bold F/L pax. had a small set of tools with him so we managed to complete the run - just!!

harrym
13th Jun 2015, 14:40
Danny, re your #7135 no need for snake oil if methanol was available! During that period in 1947-48 when there was no ‘Basic’, I adapted my 350cc ex-WD Royal Enfield (‘Built like a gun’ according to the maker’s blurb, and sounded like one too) to run on the stuff. Problem was, I also used petrol (legally) from time to time when attending RAFVR training so devised a method of doing this without having to drain the tank when changing fuels; a risky procedure if it involved the use of cans, as spillage would result in damage to paintwork (methanol being an excellent stripper).

In principle the mod involved having a can of methanol in one of the pannier bags, said can being slightly higher than the carburettor and feeding it via a siphonic tube through a cork in the can’s spout. At this distance in time I don’t recall details such as how I primed the siphonic flow or arranged the plumbing necessary for switching fuels, but vividly remember that running on meth did have a good side – the old bike pulled like a steam engine, when 2 up easily surmounting in top gear slopes that were barely manageable in third on petrol. The downside was that mpg was barely half, and also that a larger main jet was required; those acquainted with the old Amal carb will recall this necessitated separating float chamber and carb body, so switching from one fuel to the other was hardly a roadside job.

Then I suppose that, methanol being in fact an alcohol made from wood, it could be termed a renewable fuel – might I perhaps be styled as a forerunner of the Greens?!

DHfan
13th Jun 2015, 17:42
I've always had a hankering for a little grey Fergie myself.
I have absolutely no use for one, and never have had, so I've never really understood why.

Re the pellets in the fuel tank. When leaded fuel was effectively abolished*, the classic car buffs were understandably concerned about their engines.
An official organisation of some sort, I forget which one, tested a good number of the proprietary "solutions" and proved they were indeed largely snake oil.
The Advertising Standards Authority then banned most if not all of the catalytic systems as being cobblers.
There are half a dozen or so approved liquid octane boosters but as far as I know nothing else has ever been proven to work.

*Not quite abolished but if you find one of the few garages that stock it, the price is astronomical!

Danny42C
14th Jun 2015, 00:23
harrym, (welcome back, we 90+s were getting a bit worried - send not to to ask for whom the bell tolls - it tolls for thee, etc !) and DHfan,

Quite a few hares running here.

harrym, your tale of the old despatch rider's 350 Royal Enfield brought back memories. It was the only motorbike I ever tried (in India) during the war. It had the quadrant gearshift on the RH side of the tank, and I didn't fall off, and that's about as far as I can remember. Never had a m/bike before or after that (if you count out the BSA "Winged Wheel", which hardly qualifies, I suppose).

As for methanol, you can produce it cheaply and abundantly from vegetation (sugar cane in Brazil, I think, is fermented and distilled to produce the methanol on which all their cars are modified to run); it is the feedstock of choice. Didn't ICI at Billingham find a microscopic lichen which loved the stuff, and could be harvested by the ton into a greenstuff packed with protein and said to be suitable for human consumption. Never heard what became of it after that (but I sometimes wonder when looking at the exotica along the supermarket shelves).

In your case, why not keep the methanol in the tank when going to RAFVR training? Does it smell different, or is it detectable in some other way? Was it available in any quantity "off ration", in '47, if so where from, and what did it cost in comparison with the evil, rationed "Pool" stuff? (We're not talking about methylated spirit here, are we ?), for that was certainly available but very expensive (compared with the 9d/gallon domestic paraffin which you could get at any garage or ironmongers) and which was the dilutant of choice to eke out your "Pool" ration.

Even your ingenious gravity-fed dual-fuel arrangement was not without copiers. Somewhere in the tale of my Valley days ('50-'51), we had a chap on 20 Sqn with a big old Bentley "Green Label" open tourer. Clearly there was no good putting his meagre monthly ration (2½ galls?) into the cavernous tank, where it would simply vanish into the rust, sludge and water on the bottom. So he decanted it into old lemonade bottles, and like you, stuck them up in the folded hood at the back, and gravity fed the three huge carbs by a system of rubber and plastic tubing. It worked fine, and he always kept a couple of full lemonade bottles under the back seat.

And we all benefited, for the whole bachelor element of us could be crammed into the huge boat-like body for a sortie to the "Tatty" club in Rhosneigr, or for what passed for a pub in those parts. Naturally, we all contributed, from time to time, a bottleful to our benefactor, for fair's fair, after all

Even the "Amals" are mutual friends, although mine were tiny (W/Wheel) or small (Isetta), and all I ever did was pull the top off to free a stuck needle-carrier block (having learnt, early on, that it was no use messing about with the needle setting - leave it where the maker has put it!) And you had to be careful not to bend the needle.

DHfan, tin globules functioning as a catalyst was a bit far-fetched, I suppose, but when unleaded petrol came in, the old banger I was running (can't remember which one) did all right on one of the proprietary additives. What was happening to the valve seats, I knew not, neither did I much care, for the whole thing rotted out before that became a problem.

I was told that the unleaded petrol idea originated in the US, the theory being that lead particles in the air were degrading the intelligence of the little ones, their noses being closer to the ground and so to the exhaust pipes than adults. After a generation of lead-free petrol (less efficient and therefore worse for the environment), they looked for the promised improvement in IQs - and found none. The little dears were just as thick as before - but we were stuck with unleaded petrol for evermore. :*

Happy days ! Danny.

Geriaviator
14th Jun 2015, 12:14
Whatever its virtues or otherwise, unleaded petrol had expensive effects on aviation as well. From around the mid-60s (I think - usual memory caveats) we used 80-octane and 100LL, supposedly Low Lead. The 80 stuff was used in the Gipsy Majors (TM, Auster, Chipmunk) and low-powered Continentals/RR in C150s etc while the 100LL was to the liking of Lycomings and would you believe Merlins? When Spitfires came on display visits they quenched their awesome thirst with 100LL apparently without harmful effect except to the bank account.

Today's Avgas has no lead content and soon knackered the valve seats on early 1a Gipsies with bronze heads, the later 1c having aluminium heads with steel seats and slightly more power. The solution was to fit 1c heads at an expense you can guess at. The Chippy has Major 10 with alloy heads and some 20% more power so I think was OK. Maybe Smudge can remember more?

DHfan
14th Jun 2015, 16:24
For a classic car, hardened valve seats are a common and cost effective solution. I haven't looked at prices for some time but they used to start at around 25 quid a seat.

I guess for aviation use, by the time you've sourced aviation approved materials, a qualified organisation to do the job, and got it past the CAA, it would be cheaper to buy a new aeroplane.

harrym
14th Jun 2015, 17:35
Danny, given its stick shift gears your R/Enfield must have been fairly ancient; I think the pedal-operated box became general in the mid to late 1930s, certainly my specimen had the foot change common to most bikes produced from then on.

The reasons for using petrol for the 50 mile return ride to my RAFVR sessions were (a) petrol coupons were obtainable for such a purpose, and (b) it worked out cheaper than methanol – plus the fact that my range on methanol was somewhat limited, given an approx 40 mpg and the limited capacity of the can containing it.

As for Ronsonol, when ‘basic’ was reintroduced just after VE day I eked out the last few days of my embarkation leave using the stuff to keep my ancient Francis Barnett on the road; our local tobacconist (remember them?) had a good stock, and the old 2-stroke was quite happy to slurp it. The bottles it came in were not very big, but half a dozen (at around a bob or two a go) went quite a long way though I'm sure you certainly needed larger ones (and more of them ) for that old Bentley!

Glad to be back, but then I have not really been away; I keep a close eye on this thread, and will always contribute if I think there is anything interesting to say.

All the best, to all......

harrym

smujsmith
14th Jun 2015, 17:49
Geriaviator,

As A rigger (airframe trade) my knowledge of the fuel requirements of the Gypsy Major engine is a little limited. I do know that when I served on University Engineering Flight at Abingdon 77-79, all of our aircraft were fuelled from the same bowser, which contained 100LL. Oxford and London UAS with their Bulldogs, and 6 AEF with the Chipmunk all seemed to get along fine on the stuff. I can only assume that 6 AEFs chippies had the required mods. Now, a small diversion.

I was sent to RAF Topcliffe to help RN EFTS push through a backlog of students, due to the imminent arrival of HRH Prince Andrew. The only bonus was being able to claim fuel mileage back to Abingdon at weekends. In an attempt to help the meagre allowance, my car was "conveniently parked" to accept the ullage from the 100LL bowser on a Friday lunchtime. As the four of us from Abingdon had travelled together in my Triumph Herald Convertible, I was on a sure fire winner :rolleyes:

On the third weekend, halfway home down the A1, the engine blew, big time, with something metal coming through the bonnet and just missing my mates in the back seats. I have no doubts now of the error of my ways, and hopefully the statute of limitations prevents my prosecution on the abuse of aviation fuel front. I never "borrowed" fuel from Aunty Betty again during my career, but I know a few gliding clubs who found a blend of Avtur and OM15 to run their winches.

Smudge:ok:

Danny42C
15th Jun 2015, 02:39
harrym,

I would have thought that the best course would have been to take the petrol coupons and the mileage allowance. As late as '54 we were paying our Auxiliaries 4.25p/mile for coming in for training with their cars, and the same to one bright spark who had a PPL (or was it still an "A" Licence?) and occasionally flew in with a Gypsy Moth from Greatham to Thornaby; don't remember what a m/bike would get. And then use your methanol for the trip to get the best of both worlds!

Ronsonol would have been far too expensive to use in any quantity, although, as I have related in a Post long ago, it was a vital factor in firing-up my old ('31) Standard Big Nine from dead cold, but of course I only needed a little (say 25ml) to fill the tiny float chamber for each cold start.


Smudge,

I cannot understand the relatively recent PlumbPhobia which has sprung up. From the days of the Romans, we have drunk from lead cisterns, aquaducts and through lead pipes, and through all the following centuries until almost the present day. Infants sucked on their lead soldiers for generations and no one came to any harm, as far as I could see.

Many old soldiers lived out to a good old age in spite of having musket balls lodged in them somewhere where it was too dangerous for the surgeon to try to remove them. In our households, we drank our morning tea from water (sometimes acidic, as it is in this area) that had remained stationary in the lead pipes all night.

The consensus of medical opinion now is, that Tetra Ethyl Lead is injurious to humans, although it has a beneficial effect in internal combustion engines (and of course it is death to exhaust catalysts). All I can say is, that my generation lived (from the '20s through to the '90s), through the age of an enormous increase of road traffic (and a highly motorised war in ground and air), during which leaded fuels were the norm, and the expectation of life has increased considerably over the same period (I myself am a case in point).

That the use of leaded petrol has added to the existing risks from the water supply and other sources may be incontrovertible, but only to a very limited extent, IMHO.

Cheers, both, Danny.

Danny42C
15th Jun 2015, 08:53
Just found the "Song of the A 25" on Google (All True Blues to note). Had to copy this verse as it exactly describes the clamour of the Wright "Cyclone" power plant. Double Cyclones (ie, two of 'em stuck back-to-back), which in former times dragged me round the Burma skies, just sound twice as bad !

Without further ado, then, and with full acknowledment to the anonymous composer (to the tune of 'Toodle a Roodle a Roodle a Ray')

"I swing down the deck in my Martlet Mark Four,
Loud in my ear-'oles the Cyclone's smooth roar:
"Chuff-clank-clank, chuff-clank-clank, chuff-clank-clank-clink!'
Away wing on pom-pom, away life in Drink"

(Chorus)

"Cracking Show ! - I'm Alive !
But I still have to render my A 25 "

For the benefit of the puzzled, the "A 25" was the Form the unfortunate Fleet Air Arm Pilot had to fill in after a prang (you know the sort of thing: "Who, why, when, where, what for ?") - the RAF equivalent was/is (?) "Form 765c" .

And I'm sure Geriaviator (and many others) will appreciate:

"I came back to England and much to my wrath
They gave me some dual in an old Tiger Moth,
Which does fifty-five knots or something fantastic,
Which is bloody good-o on some string and elastic".

And I cannot leave out:

"When you come o'er the round-down and see Wings' frown
You can safely assume that your hook isn't down.
A dirty great barrier looms up in front,
And you hear Wings shout, "Switch off your engine, you fool!"


Just thought it might amuse. :ok:

Danny.

Union Jack
15th Jun 2015, 10:02
Just thought it might amuse.

It certainly did Danny - despite a certain variation in the second verse quoted when compared with the Fleet Air Arm Song Book......:eek:

Jack

Geriaviator
15th Jun 2015, 17:32
Just thought it might amuse.

Danny old friend, indeed it does ... as always! From someone who had to wind up the elastic at the front before every trip :8

Warmtoast
15th Jun 2015, 22:16
Geriaviator

had to wind up the elastic at the front before every trip
A bit more than elastic here I reckon - 5 FTS 1951.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/TigerMoth_zps893ac7f3.jpg

Danny42C
15th Jun 2015, 23:34
Geriaviator and Warmtoast,

Beautiful picture of the dear old "Tiggie" in full cry ! Although I got quite to like them in the end, my first experience of them was not one of my better days.

Coming from the Meteor, and not having flown them before (my ab-initio was on the much heavier "Stearman"), I came in low and fast, put it on the ground and expected gravity to hold it there. Oh, dear!.....Oh, dear, oh dear, oh dear..... I shall draw a veil over the scene which followed.

It was quite some time before I cottoned-on to the fact that you have to let it stop flying before it will settle down (not unlike a Spitfire, come to that). But I had been spoilt by things which only needed to be "wheelbarrowed" onto the tarmac and would stay down.

Will now see if I can find "The Song of the Barracuda" (perhaps Union Jack can help?) to complement the "Song of the A 25". I have long since put in the only verses (AFAIK) written about the Vultee Vengeance, but from memory:

"You always were an ugly brute
Of that there can be no dispute
From you an Angry Elephant
Would take the Palm for Elegance"

"But yet you'd aways give the Boost
To bring us safely Home to Roost"
And tho' you'd sooner flop than fly
I found it hard to say Good-Bye" :{

(I must confess that I have just added the last couplet myself, to round it off).


Cheers, Danny.

CoodaShooda
16th Jun 2015, 00:16
Hi Danny

I have noticed a recent article in a local Warbirds magazine that someone is trying to rebuild a Vengeance to flying condition.

They apparently have two other airframes that may end up as static restorations. As this is in the Antipodes, I assume they are all Mk IV's.

The article also mentioned the Mk IV at the Cambden Museum and summarized operations in India/Burma, with your old Squadron getting meritorious mention.

Danny42C
16th Jun 2015, 03:18
Warmtoast,

Re: Your quote from Geriaviator's: "had to wind up the elastic at the front before every trip".

A better solution had been found with the "Stearman". A mech had to put a crank into a hole in the left side of the nose about two feet behind the prop, then laboriously wind up an inertia starter flywheel for about 40 secs to store sufficient energy to kick-round the shaft of the 220 hp radial "Continental". If an inept stude didn't "catch" the engine with throttle first time, he'd to do it all again - and it's still hot in Florida in September !


CoodaShooda,

It is good to hear that someone is trying to resurrect a flyable one, but it won't be easy. As you say, most of the survivors will be from the Mk.IVs that came out at the end; it is hard to imagine that there will be much left of the Mks.I and II, (the only ones which we and, I believe, the RAAF) went on 'ops' with in the War. We got Mk.IIIs in India when it ended, but they only did odd jobs. I don't think you got any IIIs at all.

The only useful reference book I know is: "Vengeance!" The Vultee Vengeance Dive Bomber by Peter C. Smith, Airlife Publishing, 1986. The Brazilian River has one at £7.49 (your $15.05) at the moment.

Wiki still says that the Camden Museum one is a MkIA (US A31), but I think it's a Mk.IV (US A35), as it has that massive 0.50 "cannon" at the back, which is the hallmark of the Mk.IV (all the others have 2x 0.300/303s).

The clincher would be if your warbird mag chap could check the wing: if there's a 4° Angle of Incidence, it's a IV: if zero, not! - and the airframe no. on the fuselage is a fake (although the paperwork may be genuine, this is not EZ999 EDIT: I flew EZ993 on 24.2.43, it was the end of the VV, but we, fortunately, lived to tell the tale). Be that as it may, it looks all there and should be capable of getting into flying condition. The test pilot will have no trouble, it's just a big old pussycat.

Good luck with it ! :ok: Danny.

Union Jack
16th Jun 2015, 09:45
Danny - AM PM en route!:ok:

Jack

Danny42C
17th Jun 2015, 22:24
Cooda Shooda,

I've added a bit to my reply to you #7154 on 16th June.

Danny.

smujsmith
18th Jun 2015, 23:07
Danny,

I suspect I am going to appear the "class numpty" here, but I noticed a comment on the VV, re the difference in respect of the four degree angle of incidence, how did that affect the dive performance of the aircraft, and was the Mk IV a better or worse proposition to fly ? I apologise if you have already explained this, as former ground crew, I claim my right to catch up the "drivers airframe" slowly :ooh:

Smudge :ok:

Warmtoast
18th Jun 2015, 23:42
Tiger Moths and hand swinging of props.


Watching the fitters in the dispersals at 5 FTS hand-swinging Tiger Moth props IMHO a dangerous but necessary practice. Was being hit by a prop on start-up an occupational hazard with casualties perhaps?

Danny42C
19th Jun 2015, 00:35
Smudge,

Always ready to advise, my dear chap, and catch up as slowly as you like (for when the Good Lord made time, He made plenty of it).

In a word, the four-degree Angle of Incidence made it a better aeroplane, but a worse dive bomber. I never got a Mk.IV to fly, never mind dive. All I have to go on is this:

Captain Eric (Winkle) Brown RN tested a VV (in UK) and thought that it was inferior to the JU-87 "Stuka" in a vertical dive. We suspect that it was a Mk.IV he got for testing, for I don't think any of the earlier Marks came to Britain. It stands to reason that a zero angle made the earlier Marks far steadier in pitch during the dive, which was why it was designed in in the first place.

The American Army got the earlier Marks I-II (A-31); their pilots couldn't see over the nose, and rejected it (neither could we, but we had to live with it). They demanded an AoI, got it (A-35), then decided that they didn't like it at all anyway. The Mark IVs (A-35s) were then palmed off to us (we took them to the UK and used them as target tugs), the Free French in N.Africa and (I think) to the Brazilians.

It is almost impossible to distinguish the four-degree wing from the zero in photographs, but fortunately all the A-35s (Mk.IVs) have a 0.50 Browning in the back in place of the 2x .300/303 in Mks.I-III (A-31). This sticks out like a sore thumb !


Warmtoast,

It was potentially dangerous, but the technique used (to walk past across the nose, take the tip of the lower blade in the nearer hand and pull it after as you continued to walk away, made it fairly safe.

In days of old, when they had big old props , they had a Ford driven device called "Hucks Starter" which did it mechanically. Could have designed a smaller model for the TM, I suppose, but they never did.

Danny.

smujsmith
19th Jun 2015, 19:00
Thanks for that Danny,

I rather expected that with an increased angle of incidence on the mainplane, the required dive angle would have seemed well beyond what "felt" normal. Perhaps towing targets was the best way it could be employed.

Smudge:ok:

Danny42C
20th Jun 2015, 00:07
Smudge,

It's all guesswork, for I've never even seen a Mk.IV, much less fly them and even less dive one!

My guess is that a 'zero' would make the VV the controlled projectile which it was, whereas an AoI would have to be trimmed out as it accelerated in the dive: that might introduce an unwelcome instability and in any case it would be one more job for a pilot whose time is cut out to line-up the yellow line on his target, settle and hold it here, meanwhile countering "weathercocking" with aileron and snatching glances at his altimeter every second or so in the 20 seconds which was all he had (and all the time grimly aware of the penalty for a three-second delay in pull-out !) :*

Danny.

smujsmith
20th Jun 2015, 18:03
Ahh Danny, I dread to think of such problems, it was enough for me to land a glider in a crosswind. The "Khe Sanh" in Fat Albert was also "exciting" going in to Sarajevo. What you lot did, is beyond me.

Smudge :ok:

Danny42C
20th Jun 2015, 20:02
Smudge,

If you'd like to hear of our early VV days, cast an eye over (Page/Post):

128/2560; 129/2568; 129/2571; 129/2577; 130/2591 et seq. :ok:

Danny.

smujsmith
21st Jun 2015, 19:59
Thanks for the references Danny, just re read them, and what an interesting time it was. I had to chuckle at the deft way you, and others, dealt with the question of "Working On Governement Service", perhaps in modern times a step too far. Like the dog owned by Guy Gibson, a part of history that must be wiped out for modern scholars. The VV sounds like a terrific piece of kit, that might have done sterling service after Normandy, when allied troops needed close air support against armour.

Smudge :ok:

Danny42C
22nd Jun 2015, 17:28
Smudge,

Two things,

1. Heads Up All!... If you've ever had a small daughter (and even if you haven't), you must see "Thumbs up for Daddy! - Aerobatics" It's a gem !

2. Your: "The VV sounds like a terrific piece of kit, that might have done sterling service after Normandy, when allied troops needed close air support against armour".

I would not guarantee to hit a tank - and have to be sure none of our chaps were within 50 yds! Perhaps a Typhoon (old style) with rockets was better for the job.

But while our first chaps were still coming in to the beaches, I would have been happy to dig out gun emplacments and the like on the cliff tops. Would need fighter escort, of course, or any 109 or 190 around would have a field day !

Danny.

pzu
24th Jun 2015, 15:23
World War II vet pulls off impressive emergency landing (http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/06/23/world-war-ii-veteran-lands-stricken-plane/28873025/)

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

Danny42C
24th Jun 2015, 17:29
pzu,

Well, when you've "got it", you never lose it, you see.

This young chap obviously remembered what the good old Army Air Corps had taught him ! :ok:

Danny.

Danny42C
27th Jun 2015, 00:21
As our incomparable "Gaining a RAF Pilot's Brevet..." Thread has become moribund, here is a flashback from the Good Old Days, which I did not Post at the time.

Those who have struggled through my Saga may recall that, having flown my last VV out of Cannanore in the nick of time before my strip turned to mud in the '45 monsoon, we took refuge on the hard runway and standings of what I suppose was RNAS Sulur (Coimbatore), and enjoyed the hospitality of Lt Cmdr T. Neville Stack RNVR and his merry mariners until the rain stopped.

I celebrated my arrival by promptly going down with my third (and last) dose of malaria. I was tenderly nursed by a SBA sporting a huge black beard. For the first week I was pretty well out of my mind with the shakes and delirium, then the quinine got a grip and by the second week I was "compos mentis" again, but weak as a kitten. Meanwhile the Unit's paperwork had been steadily building up.

My old pal/Gunner/Adjutant "Stew" (Keith Stewart-Mobsby), having come out some months before me, had now gone home on repat. His successor, though a willing lad, was not too hot on the paperwork, so I arranged for the accumulated pile of bumph to be brought to my bedside and set about it. This I considered to be Above and Beyond the Call of Duty, and I thought myself no end of a deserving character.

The Letter from Group came on the Wednesday: "Private and Confidential - To be opened only by the Recipient" (or words to that effect). My sterling work must have come to notice! Something nice was coming my way. Not so !

I slit the envelope open with delighted anticipation: it rapidly evaporated. The missive was from SASO. It seemed that my Annual Confidential Assessment (was that what it was called?) had been made by a Wg Cdr "X" of whom I had never heard, but presumed to be a Staff Officer at Group. He had not been complimentary. The Assessment had been referred back to me for my own observations as it was considered Adverse. I looked at it: it most certainly was. SASO had run for cover: "IK" (Insufficint Knowledge), he had noted.

What "X" had done with the box-ticking, I do not know; it was his final remarks that had aroused interest. "This Officer", he had written, "was not successful operationally. Recommend he looses (sic) his acting rank". I was stunned for a few moments, then I realised that this would not be hard to rebut.

"My operational service", I haughtily wrote, "which was ended by a flying accident after 52 successful sorties, was wholly prior to, and so outside the scope of, the present Report. It did not attract any adverse comment from my Squadron Commanders in the previous Annual Report, and I fail to see why it should now be made the subject of any comment, favourable or otherwise, by a Reporting Officer under whose direct Command I have never served, and with whom I have no personal acquaintance whatever".

My first point was valid; each Annual Report must stand alone, you are not allowed to second-guess your predecessor. But the second was the real killer. For if it be true (and that could be quickly and easily established), then the corollary must also be true.

He did not know me from Adam. I sent the Adverse Report back with this flea in its ear.

I need hardly add that I did not "loose" my acting rank (which would have entailed removing me from my tiny Command), my War Substantive promotion came in on time a few weeks later, AHQ Delhi complied with Wg Cdr Edmondes' request, some four months later, that I be given an acting "Scraper", and three years later the RAF took me back with open arms (more or less).

Why had "X" done this ? The most charitable explanation was he had confused me with somebody else. Why did he write my Report, and not Wg Cdr Edmondes, with whom I had worked, side by side, at the CDRE since I arrived two months before ? I suppose that he was "outside the Loop" - the Group Chain of Command, and as such disqualified.

I heard no more about it - but it left a nasty taste in the mouth. :*

Cheers, Danny42C.

ancientaviator62
27th Jun 2015, 07:33
Danny,
I can empathise with you . When I was on Hastings my squadron disbanded ready to become the first Hercules squadron. Some of us were transferred to the sister Squadron which soldiered on with the Hastings.
I had been on the new squadron but a few months when crossing the hanging I was collared by one of the flight commanders with 'you, my office now'.
Once there and standing in front of him he started reading me what turned out to be a confidential report. When he finished he said 'well Sgt X what have you to say to that'. I replied that I was not Sgt X but Sgt Y.
I swear that he was about to contradict me ! Then with a curt 'get out' I was dismissed. I never did get an ACR debrief nor did Sgt X.
This shaped my whole attitude towards those under my command when I was in a position of authority . Naturally I knew all of them but I also memorised their spouses names and kept a crib sheet of their childrens details etc.
No doubt others have similar stories

ricardian
27th Jun 2015, 13:16
Three Cheers For The Man On The Ground

Wherever you walk, you hear people talk
Of the men that go up in the air
Of the dare-devil way, they go into the fray
Facing death without turning a hair
They'll raise a cheer and buy lots of beer
For a pilot who's home on leave
But they don't give a jigger
For a Flight Mech or rigger
With nothing but 'props' on his sleeve
They just say 'nice day' and then turn away
With never a mention of praise
And the poor bloody erk who does all the work
Just orders his own beer
and pays
They've never been told of the hours in the cold
That he spends sealing Germany's fate
How he works on a kite, till all hours of night
And then turns up next morning at eight
He gets no rake-off for working till take-off
Or helping the aircrew prepare
But whenever there's trouble, it's 'quick at the double'
The man on the ground must be there
Each flying crew could tell it to you
They know what this man's really worth
They know he's part of the RAF's heart
Even though he stays close to the earth
He doesn't want glory, but please tell his story
Spread a little of his fame around
He's one of the 'Few', so give him his due
Three cheers for the man on the ground

Eric Sykes, 1942
(He was an LAC Wireless Operator/Mechanic at the time)

https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/11665736_10152888804786128_1979248068409198786_n.jpg?oh=692e b54461a55bd46cf271196382a76e&oe=5621C7FA

smujsmith
27th Jun 2015, 19:11
Ricardian,

Great post, and as former "pond life", on Armed Forces day, it's nice to see that some still value the contribution of those who also served.

Smudge :ok:

Danny42C
27th Jun 2015, 21:01
ancientaviator,

Nice to know that I had fellow-sufferers! I suspect that this must have happened many a time. Of course, sometimes it must have been the other way round ! How else to account for some of the puzzling "London Gazette" entries on the six-monthly "Feasts of the Passover" ?

ricardian,

Thanks for the poem - I don't think I've ever heard that one before. Eric Sykes (died three years ago, RIP) will long be remembered for his stage partnership with Hattie Jacques, but I never knew he was such an accomplished rhymester.

Nice picture - it looks very like the jacket I was issued with in '41 (fits where it touches). But don't think collar & tie came out of Stores !

Another very powerful and moving WWII poem is Noel Coward's: "Lie in the Dark and Listen".

Cheers to you both, Danny.

Bushfiva
28th Jun 2015, 07:44
Danny, is this something you could help with on another thread?


http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/563676-bail-out-procedure-spitfire-mark-ix.html#post9026934

Danny42C
28th Jun 2015, 18:14
Bushfiva,

Ta ! Have put a word in.

Danny.

ricardian
28th Jun 2015, 20:25
Smujsmith - I left the RAF in 1973 as a Cpl Telegraphist after 12 years service. I had my gratuity of £300 safely tucked away in my bank but was quite upset to find out that anyone who left the RAF after 1975 could count all their service towards a pension (paid at age 60). Why the arbitrary date of 1975 was chosen I don't know but it affected me & lots of other folk too. I later found that I could not even count that 12 yrs RAF service towards my Civil Service pension after 30 years service as a Radio Office with GCHQ.

Danny42C
28th Jun 2015, 21:43
ricardian,

Reference your: "I later found that I could not even count that 12 yrs RAF service towards my Civil Service pension after 30 years service as a Radio Office with GCHQ".

I had the mirror image of that problem. My last employment was with HMC&E, I did 13½ years, which made me pensionable. But then I'd done 11 years ('38-'49) before with the Civil Service (they included war service, the idea was that you were only a civilian nobly doing your duty for King and Country).

If I could have tacked that on, I would have got 24½/80 of my final salary as pension, instead of the 13.5/80 I actually got; it would have made a difference over the 29 years I've been retired from C&E.

"No", they said, "you burned your boats when you resigned in '49, we told you so at the time, now go away". Ah, well....:*

Cheers, Danny.

ValMORNA
29th Jun 2015, 20:26
Ricardian, Your #7174,


I have to agree; I left the RAF after 8 years as an Air Signaller in 1958, joined GCHQ in '59 until 1992. It still rankles me that staff I worked with later got that 'pension enhancement'.

jeffb
1st Jul 2015, 15:14
By 1944, the Germans were being overwhelmed by POW,s especially airmen. While the losses on the raid Dad was shot down were very unusual ( over 95 heavy bombers lost that night) 15 or so were not uncommon on a raid. Then, of course, there was the daylight contribution by US forces.
Dad was sent to Stalag 6, at Hydrekrug. There were several compunds there; one was for Army POW, a lot were captured during the ill fated Dieppe raid. The Germans really distrusted the airmen, and considered them more troublesome that army types, so they were segregated, and under more frequent and closer scrutiny. In addition, the British and US forces were in different compounds.
Such were in influx that barracks to house them were still being constructed. Dad and about 150 other POWs were housed in a large circus tent affair for about 6 weeks.
A favourite pastime of the prisoners was to do anything they could to harass, embarrass, annoy the Germans. A favourite was to make the role calls a nightmare. They has 2 role calls a day, and frequent snap ones called as well. In the book The Last Escape, they were described as a 'shambles' and deliberately so- late getting to parade, raucous behaviour etc. If the weather was good, they would deliberately foul up the count- some POW,s , once counted, would slip into another rank about to be counted, to be counted again. The Officer in charge knew he had XXX number of prisoners to account for-any less and an alarm would be raised for escaped POW,s.
In this case, now he was faced with XXX PLUS a few! Officer bawls out NCO,s who bawl out guards, with helpful suggestions from the POW,s of course. Role call started all over ( and over! ), and sometimes was hours before the POW,s grew tired of this and let the count be correct.

Danny42C
2nd Jul 2015, 01:21
Danny tells a heartwarming Story
==================

Half way between London and Brighton lies the small Sussex town of East Grinstead. Apart fromthe heavy "Through" traffic, it is a fairly quiet place now. Few folk outside the area will have heard of it, but 75 years ago it was a byword in the Empire (and other) air forces, and well known throughout the land. For it had a small Cottage Hospital, and that was the centre of attraction.

There must be something in the air of New Zealand which breeds brilliant plastic surgeons, for in 1940 two in particular were earning a growing reputation in the profession: Archibald McIndoe and Harold Gillies (Knighted, both died 1960) - how the Highland Clearances cast a long shadow ! The first of these was the Consultant Plastic Surgeon for (among several others) at the Queen Victoria Hospital (QVH), for that was the name of our little town's hospital.

The summer and autumn of 1940 in Sussex were providing ample materials for McIndoe to ply his trade. Wiki tells me that we suffered 422 "wounded" in the BoB; many of these would have been brought in with severe burns to the face and hands, for these are the exposed areas. As a result, even as their burns healed, the victims were left with hideously distorted faces and "hands" which were only blackened and useless claws.

McIndoe's forte was reconstructive surgery, and he became very good at it. This came to the ears of the RAF; they started transferring their worst cases from RAF and other civil hospitals to the QVH for McIndoe's attention, with excellent results. Then they tried to get exclusive rights to his services with the offer of an AVM's Commission, but he shrewdly turned this down, fearing that he would be prevented from introducing the new regimes he had in mind. *

For the prospects for these badly disfigured creatures were in those days grim. The policy was to hide them away from sight in institutions, to "maintain public morale", and leave them there, hopeless, indefinitely. McIndoe determined to change all this. He knew that he had the responsibility, besides healing their burns, of restoring to them their self-respect. He demanded to have the first choice of the most attractive nurses for his wards. These then had drilled into them that they must never say a word or betray any sign of shock, revulsion,or (worst of all) pity for their cruelly scarred patients, but treat them just the same as any other. As women have the unique faculty of being able to see the man behind the face, this soon became second nature; a number of happy marriages resulted. *

He threw out all the old "red, white and blue" hospital garb for military ambulant cases, telling them to wear uniform or "mufti" for their forays into town (and further) for he ran his wards like an hotel. Beer in reasonable quantity was brought in for them, they were encouraged to go into pubs for a pint or two if they so wished. In short, in the intervals between the long series of operations which reconstructive plastic surgery requires, they could do what they liked (within reason).*

You may wonder how the townspeople reacted to the appearance in their midst of these (often) frightening visitors from the QVH. Now comes the best part of the story. By one of those strange processes of "mass osmosis", quite unbidden #, they all decided they treat them in exactly the same way as McIndoe had instructed his nurses to behave. The barman at the pub, the girl in the cinema ticket kiosk, the "clippie" on the bus, the taxi-driver, anyone they met in the street or in a shop or pub, made no reference to their appearance but chatted to them as if they could notice nothing wrong with them. The children took the cue from their parents, if they could see nothing wrong with them, it must be all right. The patients banded together, called themselves "McIndoe's Guinea Pigs", formed a (rankless) club (Prince Philip is the current President): this endures, and has annual reunions at the QVH in East Grinstead to this day.

I have a personal interest: my daughter (a Clinical Nurse Specialist in Burns and Plastic Surgery) spent twenty years of her nursing career at the QVH, and has met many of the "guinea pigs" in the years she was there.

Goodnight, all. Danny42C.

Note *: my authority is Edward Bishop's "McIndoe's Army" (Edward Bishop 2004, ISBN 1 904393 02 0).

PS: Note #: A similar thing happened in recent times, when the townspeople of Wootton Bassett (Oxforshire) spontaneously appointed themselves the surrogate mourners for the nation as the coffins of our dead soldiers from Iraq and Afghanistan passed through on their way home. For this service, the town has been granted, by the Queen, the prefix "Royal" to its name: the first time for over a hundred years that a town has received this honour.

Pom Pax
2nd Jul 2015, 10:23
Fred worked for my father, he had lead a pretty full life but he had got very badly burnt up along the way.
He was only a lowly airman driving an avgas bowser in Sicily on a forward base (at this stage the aircraft were still overnighting in Malta). He said they used to drive between the fuel dump and aircraft as fast as possible to achieve quick turn rounds. They started to borrow more and more grass cutting across the intersection of the perimeter track and the runways. Unfortunately Fred cut the corner too much and went across a landmine. More fortunately he ended up in East Grinstead though not expected to live. He said McIndoe spared his boys nothing, it wasn't just beer he had champagne, oysters even caviar. He praised McIndoe's attention to detail, Fred's ear was better than Nicky Lauda's though he kept his hair longish but partially because he said his scalp was too sore to go to the barbers. As an example of the fine detail he would show off the backs of his fingers where McIndoe had grafted skin off his leg so that hairs grew there.
Danny you must be very proud of Mary having had a noble career, we have not heard much about her between 'pram and becoming your computer guru!

Wander00
2nd Jul 2015, 11:38
Over the years I had the privilege of meeting a couple of McIndoe's patients. Very humbling experience.

Madbob
2nd Jul 2015, 12:16
My father was a staff pilot at Ringway at the Parachute Training School in 1943. His flight commander was a South African called Godfrey Edwards.


Godfrey had survived a crash whilst flying a Hamden at Upper Heyford earlier in the war and had been badly burnt. He was one of McIndoe's early patients and managed to return to flying though heavily scarred about the face, and hands. By sheer co-incidence my father landed at Upper Heyford the day after Godfrey's crash and saw the wrecked a/c and heard that the pilot had been badly burned and that although alive he was not expected to live. This was a quite common experience and as my father was a Stirling pilot and didn't known any Hamden mates he wasn't particularly bothered to know the pilot's name.


Roll the clock forward to September 1943 and my father is on a train from London up to Manchester to go to PTS as a staff pilot with a friend, F/O Bill Quayle, who has also been posted to Ringway when they see a badly burnt RAF officer in his greatcoat - no wings on his uniform visible. Between them they can't say anything than speculate on how he had been burned and exchange words to the effect, poor bugger, he can't have much to live for now........


The next day Bill and my father report for duty and on the other side of the desk is the same officer they saw at Euston the day before. Later my father became good friends with Godfrey and his wife and visited them in South Africa in the 1960's and 70's. Godfrey's scars were not pretty to look at and he remained scarred all his life but he never felt sorry about himself and carried on as though he was of completely normal appearance. My father had the utmost respect for Godfrey as a pilot, flight commander and mentor.


A trivial story perhaps, but true and so typical of a whole generation of which Danny is one.


MB

Union Jack
2nd Jul 2015, 14:12
Danny you must be very proud of Mary having had a noble career, we have not heard much about her between 'pram and becoming your computer guru! - Pom Pax

Hear! Hear! :ok:

He demanded to have the first choice of the most attractive nurses for his wards. - Danny

And presumably a proud dad is too modest to mention that this excellent tradition continued at QVH.....:D

Jack

PS Danny - I've been in the States for a while so I hoping that you picked up the email I sent the same day re the Barracuda song you wanted

Danny42C
3rd Jul 2015, 21:15
Madbob

You can't choose your generation ! (we were lucky !).....D.


Pom Pax and Jack (your #7182),

Right on all counts !

Comms log (all times GMT):

16 Jun PM (2) recd 1032 and 1035......replied PM 16 Jun 1835.

email recd 17 Jun 0448.......replied email 20 Jun 0011.

Does it check out ?

Danny.

Union Jack
3rd Jul 2015, 21:31
Good evening Danny

That's fine - all good except I did not receive your message of 200011 June 15, possibly because I was lurking in Rhode Island, so don't worry.:ok:

All the best

Jack

Danny42C
4th Jul 2015, 23:31
ancientaviator62,

Reverting to your #7168 of 27th June,

"I swear that he was about to contradict me ! Then with a curt 'get out' I was dismissed. I never did get an ACR debrief nor did Sgt X".

And no apology? That's no way to treat an SNCO ! Unfortunately there are such Officers, of whom it can justly be said (as in one well known case): "The man should never have been commissioned - only it didn't show until he reached Group Captain !"

I did a year as an airman and a year as a Sergeant, and met (only a few) such people.

Danny.

ancientaviator62
5th Jul 2015, 08:59
Danny,
I suspect the word apology was not part of this 'gentleman's vocabulary. Fortunately the squadron disbanded not long after and I went off to the the Hercules OCU. It did not do me any harm as I was a MACR at the
age of 31, then commissioned and retired as a Spec Aircrew S/L.

Danny42C
7th Jul 2015, 01:20
Geriaviator,

Your #7145: ".....I never "borrowed" fuel from Aunty Betty again during my career...."

Brought to mind a story I Posted long ago on this Thread (and PPRuNE now cannot trace, so I'll have to put it again) on the misuse of 100 octane in wartime.

But Wiki got it for me:

"The price of petrol" incident[edit]A cartoon by Zec published in 1942 caused a political furore that threatened the existence of the Daily Mirror and caused him to be labelled a traitor.[5] Appearing in the 6 March 1942 edition, the cartoon featured a merchant seaman adrift in rough waters clinging to the remains of a ship, apparently torpedoed by a German submarine. Beneath the picture, the caption read: "The price of petrol has been increased by one penny – Official."

Zec produced his cartoons under the pen-name "Low". I remember this one well, for it made a tremendous impression on me (and many others). I can see it now and I can add detail to the above:

Under a darkening sky, somewhere in the far wastes of the Atlantic, a lone, dying, oil-soaked merchant seaman is spread-eagled on a wooden grating. Over on the horizon his burning tanker sinks. The Caption ?... "The price of petrol has been increased by one half penny a gallon from midnight tonight".

Every serviceman who was tempted to syphon off a gallon for his car or bike thought twice about it - for we all read the "Mirror" (always "Just Jayne" first!)

Of course, the imputation of treason was rubbish - I never heard it at the time.

Danny.

EDIT: On 6 March, 1942, I was on my Wings Parade at Craig Field, Selma, Alabama. How did I manage to see that day's "Mirror" ? Don't know - must have seen an old copy after return to UK on 19 March. Perhaps people hung on to it because of the powerful cartoon. D.

Danny42C
8th Jul 2015, 05:36
As this our Best of All Threads has once again found itself in the doldrums of Page 2, and because I may have given the impression that no further misuse of Service petrol took place in later years, I must sadly confess that in Burma some proud VV aircrew actually washed their aircraft in 100 octane (because it was more readily available at the Flights than water). :=

They had their come-uppance, however. For it was noted that aircraft so pampered invariably (for a variety of reasons) crashed shortly afterwards. A superstition took hold; the practice was discontinued. :ok:

This jinx did not seem to operate in the more common practice of dunking your Cap SD in a four-gallon can of the stuff when its condition warranted. As 100-octane is dyed green, your flat-'at took on a pleasing green tinge, rather like verdigris. The wearer's length of time out there would be reflected in the depth of colour.

This was not a total loss, for the mechs would use the canful for de-greasing
khaki drill, components and tools, etc.

Attempts to use it in our pressure-lamps (in lieu of paraffin) were, alas,
spectacularly unsuccessful :eek:

Just thought you'd like to know.

Danny42C.

ancientaviator62
8th Jul 2015, 06:29
Danny,
in Cyprus in the early sixties we the groundcrew, would drain the AVTAG bowser hoses for two uses. One was to fill the caps of polish tins in which the legs of our (bunk) beds stood to try to prevent th bed bugs ants etc from sharing our mean mattress. The other in winter was for the primitive parafin stoves we used to have as our only form of heating. It was a choice between freezing and suffocation !

Warmtoast
8th Jul 2015, 16:40
Danny

At Gan in 1958 the NCO i/c the fuel dump swore that the multipurpose degreaser TeePol was the best shampoo he'd ever used, not only that it did a good job on his head, but on his body and clothes too etc. Mind you he was in the position to have his own personal 44-gall drum(s) of the stuff hidden away in Gan's fuel dump of 44-gall AVGAS drums as seen here.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/Fuel%20Dump_zpsroyuhvvj.jpg

ancientaviator62
9th Jul 2015, 07:16
Warmtoast,
all that AVGAS would have kept ny Supercub going for a few hours !

FantomZorbin
9th Jul 2015, 12:49
Whist helping out with the IAT at Middle Wallop in 1982 I managed to get a lump of grease on my SD hat (from a new, greased-up Landie). Bemoaning my fate in the tea bar, a WO from the AAC offered to clean the 'lid' if I promised not to go anywhere improperly dressed!!
Several minutes later the said WO beckoned me through the window to join him ... "Do you smoke SAH?", I don't, "Would you like to have a walk round for a bit SAH?", I did. So off I went, with a shimmering head and a pristine hat!!
The WO offered no explanation and I, certainly, asked no questions!

Danny42C
9th Jul 2015, 19:25
ancientavaiator (your #7189),

Presumably you had steel framed (or well made) wooden bed frames. Our charpoys had rough mortice 'n tenon joints in which bed-bugs slept off their nightly feast of our blood, so they didn't need to clamber up the legs. However, we used the same technique to frustrste the white ants, but kerosene is better - petrol evaporates too quickly.

You surely didn't use octane for your paraffin stoves, did you ? (One of the most common summer admissions to A&E [so my daughter tells me] is the impatient gardener who uses a drop of petrol to get a garden rubbish fire going).

Warmtoast (your #7190),

I have long suspected that most branded shampoos were just TeePol plus a bit of cheap perfume (just as most aftershaves are surgical spirit plus same).

You could wash an awful lot of aircraft with that lot of Avtur !

Cheers both, Danny.

MPN11
9th Jul 2015, 19:44
Ahh, WD40, aka PX24. I had the pleasure of acquiring a 5 litre tin of that when the RN cleared out/dumped their Camp stores at Bisley in the late 80s.

Last forever, it seems. I chuck it everywhere :cool:

(apologies, thats a bit modern, but conformal with the discussion I hope)

smujsmith
9th Jul 2015, 20:04
Excuse the slight diversion all, I have to report an amazing event. Mrs Smudge, being bereft of reading material, picked up and started reading my copy of From night Flak to Hijack, the first time she has raided my library. Why am I not surprised that she informs me that it's one of the best books she has read, and why didn't I tell her :ugh: Meanwhile, on the subject of "borrowing AVGAS";

Sometime around 1978 I was a member of ground staff (a rigger) on Oxford University Air Squadron at RAF Abingdon. It seems that Royal Navy Elementary Flying Training Squadron (RNEFTS) at RAF Topcliffe were behind on their training schedule, and needed to clear the backlog be fire the arrival of the now Duke of York for basic training. Four of us pond life, and a QFI plus aircraft were detached to help clear the backlog. We pond life were told that we could claim travel from Yorkshire to Oxfordshire, but should share transport to economise costs. We all elected to travel in my Triumph Herald Convertible, and I would claim for the trip, plus three passengers (a considerable cost reduction on 4 seperate vehicles). The detachment was expected to extend to 6 weeks, so we needed to "sort out" our weekend travel and "maximise" our economies!

After taking some advice from fellow servicemen who commuted weekly, I was advised that the Avagas bowser "built up" ullage through the week, which could be imbibed in on a Friday afternoon at the back of the hangar. The advice being that a 50/50 mix with 2 star petrol was good go juice. We duly went with the flow and enjoyed some trips home on 50/50 for around 4 weekends. During week five it appeared that we were nearing the end of the backlog, and would likely be given the RTU signal before the weekend. In true tradition, we spent the week enjoying the delights of Theakstones brewery, the White Bear (attached) and watching Brian Cloughs Nottingham Forest win the European Cup, or some such footy award. As we made good use of the Herald that week, on Friday, and Old Peculiar had Abu then taken full control of my inter ear capability, I had forgotten to ensure a half petrol load of 2 star before my Friday afternoon "bowser top up"!

Off we set for home, and happily, end of detachment, only for being back home because it was a great time we had had. I think it was just south of Nottingham that the piston shot through the bonnet of the Herald. Thankfully it dropped out of gear quickly enough to leave enough motion to get us to the hard shoulder. Give them their due, the lads stumped up their share for the recovery to Abingdon. It was expensive to Junior Technicians and Senior Aircraftsmen in those days, probably far outweighing the advantages of using the 100LL in the first place. I never, ever, abused the system again! Lesson learned:ugh:

Smudge:ok:

ValMORNA
9th Jul 2015, 20:25
aa62, Your #7189 . .


In Egypt in the 50's we used the 50-cigarette tins, once empty, filled with petrol too. Unfortunately the Wily Oriental Gentlemen bedbugs then climbed the wall, across the ceiling and landed on target.

Danny42C
10th Jul 2015, 02:40
ValMORNA (your # 7196),

Answer is Mossie Nets (they're too big to go through net). But you always had a resident population in the crevices of your charpoy, these got in someway or other.

Answer: Knock all joints apart, dunk ends in kerosene, re-assemble charpoy.

Smell of kerosene inhibits reinfestation for quite some time. :ok:

Danny.

ancientaviator62
10th Jul 2015, 06:49
Danny,
the fuel we used was kerosene, AVTAG or AVTUR as used by our 'Gloster Grovelins'. Yes the beds were the grey metal type.

Hempy
10th Jul 2015, 07:23
Danny, for info the RAAF did fire 'shots in anger' using the Vengeance, albeit only for a 6 week period in New Guinea.

Warmtoast
10th Jul 2015, 09:27
Danny
I have long suspected that most branded shampoos were just TeePol plus a bit of cheap perfume (just as most aftershaves are surgical spirit plus same).
Reminds me of the story of the boss of one of the big shampoo makers in the 1960’s whose prime hair shampoo product was egg shampoo to supposedly make the ladies hair gleam, or so it was claimed. Anyway he visited his shampoo manufacturing plant and ceremoniously broke a single egg into a massive 1000-gall vat of shampoo.
Reason was to ensure his company could claim that his money-making egg-shampoo met its claims that it was “Egg Shampoo”.
Don’t think he would get away with it now!

ValMORNA
10th Jul 2015, 20:43
Danny,


Mossie nets - ah! Luxury!


It was standard procedure to leave the metal bedframes out in the Egyptian sun for a few hours; this, allegedly, removed them from their hiding places.


VM

Danny42C
10th Jul 2015, 23:41
Smudge (#7195),

Have just finished it on daughter's Kindle. A great read - follows closely his account on this Thread, but of course his Posts of the Hi-jack drama have for obvious reasons been taken down.

He was an Arnold (USAAC) School student in the first RAF entry (July'42), Class 42A, so he met the "hazing" experience (from the preceding American Class of "Kay-Dets) head on. Said it was the finest flying training in the world.

I came in two months later as Class 42C in September, and as 42B were RAF, "hazing" was a thing of the past. As to being the finest flying training, although with three types and 200 hours (60 more than the Empire Air Training Schools), when we returned to UK for AFS and OTU, no difference in ability seemed to have been found: all of us were reckoned to be of much the same standard, wherever we'd been trained.

Warmtoast (#7201),

There was an unexpected choice bit of comedy many years ago. On commercial TV advts, a (nameless) Shampoo firm had for its single model a girl who dutifully extolled their jollop and praised it to high heaven.

Having (presumably) snagged her millionaire, she gave up the job, and was found by some TV roving reporter. "Oh", she chuckled, "Actually, I just use any old stuff on my hair that I can find !"

Somehow I don't think she's on any model agency's books now.

Hempy (#7200),

Certainly they bombed, but don't think they would have fired many shots in anger (the front [0.300] guns were useless, the rears [provided they'd swopped the 0.300s for 0.303s] might have been fired by the back seat man at some opportunity target on pull-out. But the general idea at that point was to get down among the treetops ASAP, and then get the Hell out of it !

ValMORNA (#7202),

We'd have gladly given up our Mossie nets in an exchange for a mossie-free environment!

Cheers to all, Danny.

Fareastdriver
13th Jul 2015, 16:44
There was coming a time when my career in China was coming to a close because of my age. I was going to retire at the designated point from the company but as they were strapped for pilots with experience in China I continued flying with them as a contract pilot. My official job specification was as a ‘Casual Pilot’.

After all those years I’d been rumbled.

I was there on an ‘as required’ basis and I kept going all through the year but in February I was not required for a few months. However, the Australian arm of the company did, so I flew out to Darwin on the same contract basis. There was only one exploration rig to service some 265 n.m. out. The onshore diversion was in Indonesia; a small airstrip where you flew around in a circle until some minion came out and unlocked the shed where there were some barrels of JP1. This was the reason why you also carried a portable fuel pump. One wasn’t rushed off their feet; I did three trips in ten days, and there wasn’t any standby requirement. The operation had satellite tracking of the aircraft so it’s position was always known and one could leave the rest to the considerable Australian naval forces in that part of the world.

The Northern Territory and Western Australia were heavily involved during the War and there were still plenty of traces lying around which would keep one occupied during the time off. This was suddenly amplified when the aircraft had undemanded floatation equipment inflation on approach to the rig with the other crew. On return it required a new float bottle and these were unavailable in the Southern Hemisphere owing to lack of demand. Owing to the delay the rig operator moved their rig offshore Western Australia and the operation moved States with it. I didn’t take it to its new base, that was going to be a detachment from Darwin as a new aircraft was coming out from Aberdeen. That meant that until it arrived or I went down to the new base at Kununarra I had nothing to do, a car plus fuel at my disposal, and I was getting paid for it!

Darwin suffered, for Australia, heavy bombing by the Japanese. There were still some of the old fortifications and a trip down the tunnel near the docks was a must. The Stuart Highway, the north/south road that spears through the Territory to South Australia had the remains of airstrips beside it and on many there were displays with a short history and sometimes old photographs of the aircraft that operated from there. One day I took a trip down so a place by the Adelaide River where one could go on a boat trip and observe ‘Jumping Crocodiles. This is where the commentator drones on about the untameable crocs dating from the time of the dinosaurs and you look over you shoulder and there is the ruler straight wake of the local performing crocodile coming for lunch.

Fast forward a few years. Back in Zimbabwe after an absence from Rhodesia of a few years. Similar boat, similar drone; this time it's a Zambezi crocodile creating the self same dead straight wake for his lunch.

The dinosaurs must have done it too; jumping out of the water to snatch a pigs head off a piece of string.

Coming back I decided to try the old Stuart Highway. This was the old winding road that had a few surprises, like trees lying so low across the road that the leaves brush the roof. I breasted a hill and there was a police Ute (Utility/pickup) parked across the road with two cops fast asleep in it. They woke up and pulled out a breathalyser; it was a random breath check???? I blew into the machine and asked them if they had had any trade. No, they said, they weren’t even expecting me. The check point was probably where the dart at landed.

Shortly afterwards I came across a fairly large airstrip. There were the remains of a tarmac runway with dispersals in the trees and even an old sandbagged machine gun position. A notice board had pictures that showed it to be a B26 base that flew empty to Darwin, loaded up with ordinance and then unloaded it on the Japanese. I had no idea of the take-off performance of the B26 but I would have thought that with the space available departing virtually empty would have been a good idea. The site spread across the Highway and the remains of a traffic control shed where the chief who supervised the mingling of taxiing aircraft and loaded lorries plied his trade.

A couple of days later I was detailed to proceed to Kununarra.

MPN11
13th Jul 2015, 18:37
Evocative, FED ... keep typing! :ok:

CoodaShooda
14th Jul 2015, 00:18
Darwin suffered, for Australia, heavy bombing by the Japanese.

The first raids, on 19 February 1942, were carried out by the same battle group that had attacked Pearl Harbour, along with land based elements from occupied Timor.

They dropped a heavier weight of bombs than Pearl Harbour received, prompting Commander Fuchida (who led both raids) to comment that it was like using a sledgehammer to open a walnut.

All up, the Top End saw around 64 raids.

Danny42C
14th Jul 2015, 03:53
Fareastdriver,

Your later days out there seem to have been packed with activity. It seems strange that a compulsory retirement age of 60 (presumably introduced on medical grounds) from "regular" employment, could be circumvented by simply going on a "zero-hours" Contract ! But that seems to be the way it was.

No.12 Squadron, RAAF was the first Sqn to be based at Darwin in the Northern Territories '42-'44 so Wiki tells me. They got their Vengeances from Oct'42 onwards, worked-up on them and started operating the next year.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Vengeance_%28AWM_0G0537%29.jpg (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Vengeance_%28AWM_0G0537%29.jpg)


At first they were used on rather pointless sea patrols (we did the same in India), but then they must have decided to "bite the bullet" and teach themselves how to use them properly.

Among other places they were at Merauke (New Guinea) from Nov'43 to May'44. But they did a strike on Selaru in the Tanimbar Islands on 18 June'43 (from where ?); this seems to be the only VV 'op' they ever did. Of course, the VVs were pulled out of the line in summer '44 (as also were we - WHY ? - the war still had a year to run, we could have been useful).

Anyway, in your wanderings in the Darwin area, did you ever come across any memories or trace of the VVs ?

This convivial gathering lacks an important item - the Bomb Fin Container/Bar Stool: Clearly, this lot needed to "Get Some In !" (if they'd done a lot of VV 'ops', they would have collected a whole pile of them and seen the obvious possibility of using them for the purpose).

Also, they would have realised that the end (gunner's) curved section of the canopy, seen pushed back in the photo above, would prove a nuisance when he was facing forward, (but still wanted the breeze), and done what we did - just chuck 'em out ! (you could do things like that in those days).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/No_12_Squadron_aircrew_Merauke_Dec_1943.jpg/220px-No_12_Squadron_aircrew_Merauke_Dec_1943.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:No_12_Squadron_aircrew_Merauke_Dec_1943.jpg)

No. 12 Squadron aircrew in the bar of the aircrew mess at Merauke (note: Gentlemen on the left, Players on the right ! - apartheid still evident)

Hope there's still a bit more to come from the good old Far East,

Cheers, Danny.

PS: Chugalug in particular will be interested in this VV picture (I've only just spotted it myself). Look at the aerial - there seems to be a downward 'kink' in the (tension sprung?) bit on the mast. Something is pulling it down. And that something can only be the conjectured two (invisible) aerial wires running from that point to each wing tip !

Elementary, my dear Danny.

Fareastdriver
14th Jul 2015, 11:54
It seems strange that a compulsory retirement age of 60 (presumably introduced on medical grounds)

58 was the magic number because that't when the company pension scheme kicked in. The RAF was 55 as was British Airways. In those days the company, as could the RAF, tell you to shove off if they did not require you any more. Should they require you then you had to be outside the pension scheme so that it would stay afloat as your entitlement with pay and seniority would start to hurt.

Back to Oz.

I wasn’t flying, I was driving. The aircraft had flown there with the pilots and some engineers whilst a couple of engineers had driven a company Ute there to act as transport. They needed some more so I was taking one of the two company cars to ease the transport situation. I was quite a long way; down the Stuart Highway to Katherine and then west to Western Australia. It had to be done in daylight, as is all bush travelling in Australia because of errant kangaroos and feral cattle. Big trucks and buses have Roo Bars on the front which is similar to a cowcatcher on a train.

The first problem was the car. The rear axle was on the bump stops and opening the boot explained why. They had loaded it with a full set of maintenance manuals and the space was solid with paperwork. Loads of moaning from me that Poms don’t drive cars in that state so they removed half of it and got the car back on to even keel. I had a passenger, an engineer who had never driven in the bush before and looked slightly apprehensive. With my years of blundering through the Rhodesian bush I had no fears at all.

We set off down the Stuart Highway; with a 120 kph limit (75 mph) one could get going but you had to be careful of the road trains. These were large trucks with three or four equally large trailers behind them limited to 100 kph. Because they were so long you had to be sure that there was plenty of clear road ahead to get past them safely. Some of them would have what is known as a dog; a trailer that will not follow in a straight line but whips from side to side. They were normally the rear trailer but occasionally one in the middle used to influence the one behind. It just made the whole unit that much wider especially when they were coming the other way. A cup of coffee in Katherine at a café where there was a stick again the wall that showed the height of the water, about 60 cm, the last time the Katherine River flooded.

We then punched off to Western Australia along the A1. The road was practically deserted. It was fully fenced both sides in a futile attempt to keep Coos and Roos off the road. The Roos could jump over it but the Coos couldn’t so the carcasses of the cattle that got onto the wrong side from the water trough were rotting in the sun. Just before we reached the border with Western Australia I saw a geological sight that I have never seen before or since.

It was an escarpment; not very long, about ten miles or so. What was so fascinating was that at the western end it was a pristine cliff. As your eyes travelled eastwards it slowly deteriorated until at the eastern end it had crumbled into a pile of rubble. It was a complete exhibition of natural erosion in one sweep.

We then came to the State border. Those of you that have travelled to Australia will know the arrivals are very fussy about what you can bring into Australia. That traditional black pudding that your relatives yearn for goes straight into the bin; the same with Chinese delicacies. The individual states are the same as I found out when I pulled up at the border office.

“Have you got an esky?” he demanded.
I put on my best Pom accent. “What’s an esky?”
“One of those.” He pointed to a fenced compound about the size of a tennis court that was five feet high with discarded cooler boxes.
I hadn’t, so I wasn’t led away in chains for trying to massacre the entire greenery in WA with traces of lettuce in an esky.

We then arrived in Kununarra. The hotel, at that time run by an international chain was almost the first place we found. We checked in, had dinner plus a few beers with the blokes and I was briefed for the next morning.

We weren’t supposed to be at Kununarra; we should have been at a place called Troughton Island. This was a small island of the coast that hosted a small airfield built during the war. The island had zero inhabitants and was only used for offshore support. A month or so previously a cyclone had come along and had demolished everything in toto so it was now unusable. There was another wartime airfield nearby on the mainland called Truscott but this was already occupied by the other Oz helicopter company for their offshore contract. We then had a different procedure to get out people out to the rig and back.

Our passengers would be loaded into a Beech Kingair at Darwin. When they got airborne we would fire up our 332 at Kununarra and fly to Truscott. We would arrive first and then shut down to await them. The Kingair would arrive in a cloud of dust until it reached the tarmac at the far end which enabled the brakes to work. This was essential because the airfield had been virtually abandoned at the end of the war and there were all sorts of equipment and unexploded ordinance lying around. We would be there and back in an hour and leave them to the mercies of the Kingair whilst we punched off back to Kununarra and the bar. The only drawback in this procedure was that there was a time difference between NT and WA. This meant that we had to launch in the dark.

As with most airfields in Australia the airfield was unmanned. There is a radio procedure that is mandatory in Australia so that pilots know where other pilots are so takeoff including departure heading, joining from which direction, downwind and landing calls are made. At night there is another complication; it is dark but they have an answer for this; an airfield frequency that controls the airfield lighting. By selecting the frequency and in this case keying four long dashes the entire airfield lights up for fifteen minutes. That is plenty of time to taxi to the runway and take off, even for a fully loaded passenger aircraft; who do. It’s fascinating when you first do it but then it is old hat.

Kununarra started of life as a work camp for the Ord River project. This was an irrigation scheme for a massive agricultural project in the Kimberly area. The main dam was constructed in 1962 and Lake Argyle, the result, is the largest inland body of water in Australia. All has not gone as well as expected for various reasons but it has opened up tourism, especially for saltwater crocodile enthusiasts. I had a look at the dam and then I went up a hill to take some pictures of the township. I went down to the main road and whilst walking back I witnessed one of the more unfortunate parts of Australian life.

There was a clearing in the woods near the road and in it was a big circle of local Aboriginals. In the middle was a five foot high pile of VB (Victoria Bitter) cases and it was obvious that they were intent on demolishing the whole lot. The reason was that is was ‘pay day’, the day that they collected their benefits. One could sympathise with them. They had no tradition of the so-called work ethic because it did not exist before Captain Cook arrived. They could get by now as they had done for centuries without money so why start now when the government gives you stacks of beer tickets.

I had only been there about four days and then there was a panic to get me back to Darwin. The aircraft that was coming from Aberdeen in an Antonov was still on the British register and so they needed a CAA licensed pilot, ie me, there to be able to fly the reassembly checks. With my feet hardly touching the ground I was bunged into the back of a F27 and then I was off back to Darwin..

Fareastdriver
14th Jul 2015, 20:08
There was only the three of us at Darwin. The chief pilot, on his two weeks rotation; the chief engineer, who lived permanently on site; and me. We had two vehicles left. The chief pilot preferred utes, the engineer had his own so I had the brand new Toyota Cecilia with a Shell fuel carnet.

The aircraft we were waiting for was still at Aberdeen. They had fitted long range sponson tanks onto it and they were having trouble getting them to work. I had flown the Puma J, the predecessor to the Super Puma nearly twenty years before and I knew that the tanks would not commence feeding unless there was at least 150 lbs of fuel in them; then they would feed until empty. The CP and the CE had been on Pumas as well. ‘Surely they know that’ ‘everybody know that’ ‘we’ve always had to do that’. And still the telexes came.

I was having a great time. I was living in a two bedroom serviced apartment on a complex with a swimming pool and barbeque area just a stones throw from the city centre. I went to every museum available and saw more kangaroos, wallabies, koalas crocodiles and dingoes than you could shake a stick at. At the end of the day I would grill a thick fillet steak and demolish a bottle of Aussie wine. (or two)

We then got the message that the aircraft had missed the Antonov. That had left the UK with stacks of other peoples stuff and it couldn’t wait. I couldn’t go back to Kununarra because its roster had been written for the Australian staff and that was sacrosanct. They then asked me to stay on until it arrived.

I would have been on contract pay, (£187/day), location allowance of about A$50/day doing nothing for the foreseeable future. It was a benefit scrounger’s dream. There was only one spectre on the horizon; the taxman.

I was on a business visa that entitled me to work in Australia for an overseas company. Even though I worked in Australia I was paid by the UK parent company. I did not know how long this arrangement was supposed to last and not having a tax advisor on the doorstep I did not want to stick out my neck too far. I was also getting bored. I had had a long period of either slack or no flying for the month or so and I was running out of things to do. I had been everywhere, got the T shirts, I knew how fast the Cecelia could go on dirt roads, forwards or backwards. Most importantly it was coming up to the typhoon season in China and I wanted to be there when needed.

I suggested that they get the aircraft registered in Australia during the delay. The light bulbs flashing up were blinding. ‘Why didn’t we think of that’, they chorused. They put it to Perth and the next day I was told that I was no longer needed. I reminded them that I was on a seven day notice period so I put in my invoice including the next week. The next day I was back in China.

The operation in China had a bed for me and as soon as I arrived somebody went sick so I volunteered to fly because I was still being paid by the parent company. The company was very grateful for me helping them out but the impression on the Chinese executives on the operation was life changing.

Danny42C
15th Jul 2015, 21:39
Fareastdriver,

It's hard keeping up with the twists and turns of your complicated story! But surely, for an enormously skilled and responsible job, where they can sack you on a week's notice, a salary of £68,000 pa (plus £750 pm exs) is rather niggardly, I would have thought . How long ago would that have been ? (just look at the salaries recently on offer here in China for 320 and 737 pilots).

There doesn't seem to be much loyalty shown to you by some of your employers, but I suppose that's the common lot of the "casual" worker - you don't know where your next job/meal is coming from, do you ?

Thank you for sharing your tales of Old China with us (and hope there are many more to come) for they're unique, and the more day-to-day routine details, the better. This Thread has always been the most popular and entertaining one on this Forum; not only that, it is forming an intensely valuable world archive of flying and ground engineering experiences as far back as living memory goes. Cliffe Leach (RIP) builded better than he knew when he started this seven years ago,

Cheers, Danny

Fareastdriver
16th Jul 2015, 09:13
That was over fifteen years ago. A couple of years later it was £300. The last I heard it was £450 but looking at the price of oil nowadays it is probably down to Zero.

The story, however, will continue...................

Fionn101
16th Jul 2015, 11:08
Another fine installment , thanks FED.

How far were the rigs typically from land ? and what were your emergency procedure for water landing ? would you try to float or immediately abandon to the liferaft.

Danny, Sir, have you been in many helicopters ? and what were your initial thoughts ?

it appears some of the early helo's had great visibility !

World?s First Helicopter ? Today in History: September 14 | ConnecticutHistory.org (http://connecticuthistory.org/worlds-first-helicopter-today-in-history/)

Rgds,
Fionn

FantomZorbin
16th Jul 2015, 11:33
In passing ...


Gp Capt Sir Douglas Bader emphatically refused to be flown in a helicopter at RAF Shawbury!! Maybe he just didn't like the Gazelle.

Fareastdriver
16th Jul 2015, 12:41
Fionn101

The distance varies from where you coast out. You may have 100 miles to run but it may be only 40 miles from the shore. The continental shelf is a clue; that's where the offshore oil is. That can vary from being 200 miles, China, or on the doostep, the North Sea.

One does not stay in a ditched helicopter unless it is designed to float, ie the Sikorsky S61. Years ago they water taxied a ditched BV 234 (Chinook) to a platform but apart from that the aircraft is abandoned fairly rapidly. Offshore helicopters have flotation devices. Years ago they had pontoons, now smaller ones have bags that look like pontoons when they are inflated. Large helicopters have them streamlined on the the fuselarge or concealed within pop-out doors. They are only designed to keep the aircraft upright so that it can be abandoned safely. Without them, as the engines and gearboxs are at the top, it would almost certainly turn turtle as soon as it arrived. The liferafts, at least two of them, are designed to float so they are a better bet than a helicopter, which is not.

FantomZorbin

I was under the impression that the executive branch of helicopter travel had carried him. I would agree. I once had a terrifying ride in a Bell 47 from Nicosia to Akrotiri and I swore blind that I would never step into any helicopter below four tonnes again.

212man
16th Jul 2015, 12:54
Gp Capt Sir Douglas Bader emphatically refused to be flown in a helicopter at RAF Shawbury!!

He certainly did later - he was the first MD of Shell Aircraft, and frequently travelled to visit Shell locations (and then flew in contracted helicopters once there).

FantomZorbin
16th Jul 2015, 12:59
FED
We were all under the same impression, alas we were wrong and plans had to be hastily changed.


There was no reason given apart from his determination not to fly in a Gazelle. Lots of very surprised and disappointed families.

Fareastdriver
16th Jul 2015, 14:02
It was then time to go back to the UK for a bit. Not too long as the taxman would beckon. Luckily I was stepping from one year to the other plus a bit of time on the Costa so It wasn’t until the end of April that I started putting my bids in. Total lack of interest from my UK company after all that I had done for them but the Chinese company was very impressed by the fact that I had flown a trip voluntarily when I returned from Australia. With that came the nudge that they may employ me directly.

I had my feet pressed against the seat in front all they way to Hong Kong in the 747 trying to make it go faster. When I arrived it wasn’t a case of signing a form and strapping on an aeroplane; it doesn’t happen like that in China. I didn’t get a pay rise but I got security of employment for six months and they looked after my Chinese income tax. As my old company was not forthcoming then I was fairly fortunate to get that.

I was paid in US$, cash. This meant that I had to open a US$ account in HK and once a month I would have a bag full of money to take over there. The Chinese tax system has several different bands and what happens is the company calculate how much tax you are due for that month. They then take your payslip around to the tax office and pay your tax. The taxmen then stamp it and you will get the net amount. There is no annual tax summary, you are taxed monthly. After that I would end up in the pay office whilst the accountant doled out about two years of his pay. Somewhere along the line I was paying the equivalent of Pension and National Insurance but I don’t think that is now worth claiming.

The routine was exactly the same as before, the only difference was that I had my own apartment. I was hoping, as their employee, to go to some of the more outlandish operations but it was too difficult to do the type conversions as they were all in Chinese. It was also thought that the co-pilots would not be able to survive another company dinner with me around.

At the end of the six months I was approaching my 60th birthday. ICAO rules at that time barred anybody over sixty from flying internationally so my UK licence was no good in China or anywhere else apart from the UK. I then retired for the third time. RAF; Company; Flying; and went back to the UK with a massive tax return that proved to the whole world, if you could understand it, that I had paid my taxes and wasn’t liable for any more. I then settled down for a life of leisure in a new house.

Six months later Aberdeen were waving money in front of my face.

Just a co-pilot. Do the planning, sit there, no responsibility compared with before. Five days a week when I wanted too. Time off when I felt like it. Not only that I was being paid per day more than the captain. You couldn’t make it up. I made hay whilst the sum shone for eighteen months and then I retired again predominately because somebody in authority decided I was earning two much. (Contract pay plus two pensions)

I did Europe, Egypt, Fiji, New Zealand, South Africa and the Victoria Falls. The USA swept beneath my feet again with visits to Florida and California. In all this travelling I had a yearning to go back to see how China was getting on and a year later I did.

“You should have been here last week, you would have got a job.”

This was the cry as I entered the bar. Apparently one of the British captains had clocked a bar owner over the bill and had then done a runner. An elderly member then informed me that as the ICAO age had gone up to 65 the Chinese would endorse a British licence to that age. There was somebody coming out to replace the errant captain so I dismissed the notion. I was also leaving the next day so there was no time to investigate.

I mulled over it on the aircraft coming back and when I got back I sent an email to the chief pilot asking what the chances were in the cold light of dawn. Immediate reply, I was on. There was going to be a problem renewing my medical; both the AMEs that I knew, at that age you always go to a doctor you know, were away on holiday. Then the UK head office came in on the loop and they organised my flight to Hong Kong and China organised the hotel and CAA medical the morning after arrival at our normal AME. This all went to plan and the above phrase now reads.

“You be here next week and you will have a job.”

Danny42C
16th Jul 2015, 20:03
Fionn101,

First reaction ?......."I'm seeing this - but I don't really believe it - it's all done with smoke and mirrors ! Has gravity been suspended, then ?
(just the same when I saw my first Harrier do its stuff!)

Fly in one ?......Good God, NO ! (still don't believe it). But if I were a few years younger, and could get it past the Boss, would love to have a go with those gyrocopter things. They look great fun.

Old Post re-hashed:

Farmer goes to see Wg Cdr Ken Wallis (RIP):

"That's a clever idea - just what I need to do a bit of spraying small areas - how much would one cost ?"

Wallis:

"Well, it might be possible, but we'd have to modify the basic design, it wouldn't be cheap". Anyway, how much flying experience have you got ?"

Farmer:

"Well none, actually - but I should be able to pick it up over a weekend !"

Danny.

Fareastdriver
17th Jul 2015, 15:04
On my previous stint in China I was there in 1997 when Hong Kong was handed back to the Chinese. I was effected by the run-up in both China and Hong Kong and come the final night sat there flicking between Shenzhen and Hong Kong TV getting both sides of the action.

Our operation was in the Shenzhen Special Economic Zone. This area was about the same size as the area between the Thames and the northern half of the M25. It was fenced, as it had always been since shortly after its inception to prevent a tidal wave of peasants trying to get new life. In recent years it had relaxed a bit, there were plenty of other opportunities in China by then, and the checks of the permits allowing people to stay was only random. That changed, totally, about two months before the handover. Shenzhen was now surrounded by steel.

The reason was that the Chinese government was afraid of a host of Chinese nationals demanding entry into what they considered was Chinese. The Special Administrative Region that Hong Kong was going to be meant nothing to them because all their lives Hong Kong was a land of milk and honey. Some, more nationalistic than others, were quite excited about it. They would go on about the return of Hong Kong, Macau and a few continued about Singapore. The latter obviously believed that if the population was predominately Chinese it belonged to China.

Apart from that most people didn’t seem to care.

Hong Kong was having a bad time during the run up. Hotels were virtually empty. Napier road was deserted. The tour boats for the harbour of the tours of Lantau were all tied up. Should you want to hangout there for the weekend you could walk up to the desk of any hotel and demand a 60% discount; and you got it. As one commentator addressed it; ‘You would think that the PLA was going to come along and bayonet everybody in the streets.’

A week before handover the ATC restrictions came in. We had to change our route and describe a wide arc at least ten miles from the border. Then a unit of PLA helicopters arrived. They parked their aircraft well away from us and disappeared into a distant shed. Flying over Shenzhen you could see lorry parks with dozens of PLA trucks parked within; whatever happened in Hong Kong they were not going to be short of firepower.

The ceremony itself was a bit of bore. One advantage of having two diametrically opposed TV stations is that you can flick from one to the other to get the different reactions. The Royal Marines were a bit of a let down. I would have thought that they would have been in full No 1 uniforms but they weren’t; they were dressed in shorts and berets and looked a real shambles compared with the ceremonial guard of the PLA.

After midnight the gates open and convoys of lorries with all the soldiers being told to wave to the locals meandered there way to the Prince of Wales barracks and other places. All the British bigwigs, Prince Charles; Blair, his first jolly since getting elected; Patten and others boarded the Britannia which sailed off on her last long voyage.

The next morning we watched the PLA take off en route to their new base at Sek Kong.

I never saw any evidence of PLA forces in the subsequent years when I visited the SAR. They used to stay in their barracks and from what I heard from HK ATC the helicopters did likewise. The biggest problem was that British, Australian and New Zealand backpackers couldn't get jobs as barmaids any more so you were served by some miserable bloke. It took about three or four months for Hong Kong to get back into its stride, and it did, and it will continue to do so.

Geriaviator
18th Jul 2015, 13:37
In his Shell role Sir Douglas Bader chauffeured himself around Europe in a Miles Gemini (rather like a twin-motored Messenger) and made his mark on ATC at Sydenham, now Belfast City Airport but in the 1940s shared by Shorts and the Royal Navy.

An old friend who was a junior controller at the time recalled that the great man was cleared to land on the main runway 23, which had a strong crosswind. A mile or so out he veered north and performed a slipping turn into the very short northerly runway which had been closed since war's end.

When ATC remonstrated with the great man, he responded that HE was the ----- pilot and HE would decide which ------ runway direction was appropriate for landing.

smujsmith
18th Jul 2015, 23:15
Perhaps I throw the thread forward, but hopefully only to relate the same feeling of dread the thought of flying in the whirling dervish of a machine gave me back in the day. I was just an AGE on Albert, and, subsequent to the GW1 debacle was detailed to attend a FARP course at RAF Stafford. It seems that our Captain, one C**** F**d, had arranged transport from Lyneham to RAF Stafford by Chinook of 7(SF). We duly turned up and sat in the back of the beast, myself the Eng, Co and Nav all crossed our fingers and prayed for a failure. By goodness, it happened, the bugger wouldn't start properly, and, needed support from main base. What a relief, we attended the course, by car, and were told about Farping, which we had all been doing for the duration of GW1. I have the honour to be an erk who avoided flying in a helicopter during 30 years of service. I'm sure there's some point in the whirligigs, unnatural IMHOP, I hope to continue to avoid any contact with the beast.

Smudge

Danny42C
18th Jul 2015, 23:20
Smudge,

Great Minds Think Alike ! :ok:

Danny.

Fareastdriver
19th Jul 2015, 11:04
After 17,500 hrs of flying, of which 16,500hrs were on helicopters, 12,500hrs were on Pumas and Super Pumas. During that time on the latter types I cannot remember a moment of concern.

You don't know what you missed.

Danny42C
19th Jul 2015, 16:54
FED,

Bit late to try now! (you never know - an Air Ambulance, perhaps ?)

Danny.

smujsmith
19th Jul 2015, 17:44
FED,

respect Sir, and each to his or her own as they say. I have no doubt that those "brought up" in the ways of the rotary machine are comfortable with it. I have no wish to cast aspersions on rotary operations, or operatives, and hope that you can accept my personal dread of travelling in such a mode.

Smudge :ok:

Danny42C
19th Jul 2015, 18:20
Fareastdriver,

Your: "The latter obviously believed that if the population was predominately Chinese it belonged to China".

Same ploy was used by A. Hitler in the case of the Sudeten Germans. And Putin is not averse to calling on it in (say) Ukraine. Of course it does rather accord with the principle of Self-Determination !

Danny.

OffshoreSLF
19th Jul 2015, 20:15
FED


Great to read of your adventures in Oz. I spent a while in Perth, and I remember flying up to Karratha with Ansett on a BAE146 before getting on a helicopter to fly offshore to the Goodwyn. I seem to remember the helicopter operator was Lloyd, but I can't recall the type of helicopter they flew.


As to those who have no wish to fly in helicopters, all I can say is that I worked offshore for 30+ years, and apart from a few minor issues, I had no problems at all. I flew in many types, my favourites being the ubiquitous S61, Bell 214ST and the Bolkow BO105. Bristow were still flying S58's when I started.

ricardian
19th Jul 2015, 20:30
I flew in a helicopter once in my 12 years RAF service (1961-73). It was an RAF helicopter tasked to retrieve some kit that we had had to leave on Bear Tor (Dartmoor) after the Ten Tors walk/march was cancelled due to inclement weather. The following day I got a telephone call to say that the helicopter could not find our kit on Bear Tor and would I go and assist. I met the helicopter in (I think) the Royal Marine barracks in Plymouth and off we zoomed. The loadie/winchman had a 1" = 1 mile OS map of Dartmoor with Bear Tor clearly marked so I crouched in the open doorway looking over his shoulder at the map & the terrain (and holding VERY tightly to a bit of the airframe). The helicopter hovered a few hundred feet above Dartmoor and the loadie/winchman pointed at a hilltop and then at Bear Tor on the map. I shook my head, pointed at the ground and then at Dinger Tor on the map. We moved a short distance, found Bear Tor and retrieved our kit. I made no comment as I left the helicopter at the RM barracks in Plymouth.

Fareastdriver
20th Jul 2015, 09:43
We moved a short distance, found Bear Tor and retrieved our kit.

Only a short distance? For the Marines that was spot on.

Returning to Shekou in China where I lived.

The Navy decided to do an assault on a miltary range in the New Territories in Hong Kong. They launched from their carrier and flew up the Pearl River to their target. Unfortunately they miscounted the islands, missed their LZ and deposited a Marine Commando in the Peoples Republic of China. Luckily in the middle of the Shenzen Bay there was a Hong Kong border boat that witnessed it. He notifyed Hong Kong and they notified the carrier. At that point the lead crew were informed of their error and returned to pick up their charges.

They got away with it apparantly. The Embassy in Beijing was on tenderhooks for weeks but nothing came of it.

Fareastdriver
21st Jul 2015, 21:20
To stop this thread coming off the front page.

The Saga of the Dodgy Registration.

In 1998 came the Far East crash. Stock prices were collapsing and even major international companies were having financial troubles. Imagine a group of Samsung financial directors shuffling on their knees to tell the president he cannot have his super deluxe helicopter to take him to work every morning. The company is in such dire straights that it can only afford a small one. Not too small, about the size of his limousine, and so an Aerospatiale 332L1 came on the market.

There weren’t a lot of takers for a full VIP executive helicopter for the same reasons that Samsung were selling it. However, our Chinese company bought at an absolutely giveaway, rock bottom bargain price somewhere around 50% of what it cost two years earlier. They flew it to Shenzhen and we had a look at this beautiful jewel, its form only spoiled by the air conditioner mounted on the port side.

One lowered an airstair door to enter the front cabin. Radiant beech panelling lined the walls with four sumptuous swivelling armchairs spaced evenly around. There was a drinks cabinet at hand and a telephone to address the driver with. The rear cabin had airstairs under the boom was merely set out with six club class armchairs but had, as the front did, a carpet you had to wade through. There was also a door so that the president’s needs, during the seven or eight minutes between establishing in the cruise and starting the landing profile, could be attended to.

It all had to come out. Off came the air-conditioner; out came the armchairs and seats. They had to leave the panelling as it hid the frames and stringers but the partition disappeared. Seats? We had some seats in storage there, not a full set, just fourteen, so in they went. Then it went onto the contract it was bought for, an offshore based shuttle. It was seven days out and then the aircraft would come back for maintenance and crew change. The first two weeks were done by Chinese crews but then came the requirement for a British captain. As I was on contract to the Chinese company I was fingered.

There was one problem. It was still on the South Korean register. Not having a Korean validation on my licence I politely declined; or words to that effect. On this I was backed up by the chief pilot and all the other Brits. What arrangements the Chinese crews had for flying it I didn’t know but that was their problem. This impasse lasted about three days and then the Chinese played the master stroke. They got a temporary Chinese registration for the aircraft.

I had flown aircraft with temporary registration before. I had picked up a S76 that had been shipped over from the States to Southampton. It had a temporary registration stuck on the side made up with bodge tape and it was virtually indecipherable at first glance. The weather wasn’t brilliant and I had flown it to the UK base fairly low level across the south of England. I knew the area because of my time at Odiham so as the area being used to military traffic I reasoned that that plus an unrecognisable registration which had probably peeled off would keep me fairly safe from moaners. Thus I flew along blissfully unaware that the previous US registration was emblazoned in big letters and numbers on the underside of the aircraft.

In China the allocation of aircraft identities is on a different logic than the UK. Whilst in the UK they are predominately in alphabetical order in China it is by company further divided into types. What happens is that a company is given a block of numbers which are further broken down into types. Our company had B7951 onwards for its 332s. They bought 7951&2 in the mid eighties and 7953 came along over ten years later. The temporary registration that this aircraft had bore no relation whatsoever to any recognised form of Chinese allocation.

I decided to go along with it for three reasons. The first was that I wanted to fly it. The reports on were superb. The flight from Seoul to Shenzhen was ten per cent of its total hours and it was as smooth as a baby’s bottom in the cruise. The second was covered by Chinese aviation law as I was directly employed by a Chinese company. Most of flying discipline in China is delegated to the company so if you are guilty of an infringement you are fined by the company. As they had told me to fly it it would be difficult to discipline me for flying it illegally. The third was that I had a copy of a policy that said I was worth US$1,000,000 dead.

To be continued………………………..

Geriaviator
21st Jul 2015, 21:56
Wonderful stories FED, aviation's answer to Lord Jim :D
Please keep them coming.

Danny42C
22nd Jul 2015, 00:19
FED,

Rather an impertinent quesion, but was there a Mrs FED around at the time ? If so, she must have a tale to tell !

Wonderful stories - More, More !

Danny.

Fareastdriver
22nd Jul 2015, 06:23
Mrs FED stayed at home in the UK. However, I always shipped her out to have a look at the places where I worked at; ie China three or four times. Whilst I was at Darwin in my last episode she was watching the jumping crocodiles with me.

Leave arrangements were somtimes complicated. We decided to do Central USA to see Las Vegas and some relatives. Mrs FED flew from London to San Francisco and I flew by Grab a Granny Airlines from Hong Kong and we met at the airport to catch the connecting flight to Vegas. (GaG Airlines; our American SLFs will know that one) A few days in Vegas, rented a Buick and drove through the Rockies to Dillon where my niece was. Then through the Eisenhower tunnel almost to Denver; south almost to Albuquerque then along the by the old Route 66. There we saw the Rio Grande, Meteor Crater and the Hoover dam before returnig to Vegas. Mrs FED went back to the UK and I flew back to Hong Kong and China.

More on that later.

Fareastdriver
22nd Jul 2015, 08:50
I arrived at 06.00 hrs for the 07.00 take off. My co-pilot did all the planning and then I went to the line office to sign out the aircraft. B-7955 was emblazoned on the tech log. Over the weekend? I should coco. But you couldn’t argue against it, it was all there in writing. I queried as to why it was suddenly registered. They (the CAAC registration authority) forgot to tell us. They had approved it two weeks ago. What about the temporary registration? Different department, we will tell them later. The aircraft was a honey. Smooth, precise and a joy to fly. When we arrived offshore we found that the deck crews had no trouble with airstair doors and the deck times were the same as normal.

We were based on the Nan Hai Fa Xian, an FPSO; (Floating Production, Storage and Offloading) ship which was a converted tanker. It was registered in Panama and had an Italian officered crew. I had a cabin on B deck just along from the officers lounge.
Meals were cooked separately from the Chinese crew and we could choose virtually what we liked. The schedule was tight. A morning shuttle at 07.00 hrs, that lasted about two hours. A midday change over for about an hour and then the evening shuttle at 19.00 which went on for another two hours. The engineers had it worse then us. The had to strap it down after the last landing, do the post and pre flights and untie it before the next morning’s tasking.

There are two ways off getting oil onshore. Where possible pipelines buried just under the sea bed is preferred and nearly all North Sea products come this way. Where that is not possible then an FPSO is used. Pipeline from any number, in this case six, platforms meet at a subsea loading buoy. The FPSO has a well in the deck just aft of the bow that goes straight through the hull. It positions itself ever the buoy and the buoy is then raised to fit inside the well on the ship. Everything is connected up and all the production from the platforms arrives on the ship. There it is processed to make it transportable by tanker.

About every six or seven days the Fa Xian would offload to a tanker. A specialist marine captain known as the mooring master would be flown out from Shekou. He and his crew would then be winched on to the tanker, supervise the mooring to the Fa Xian and stay on the bridge during the transfer process, sometimes ten or twelve hours. When the tanked had released and was on the way to wherever we would winch him and his team off the tanker and take them home. On this picture the tanker is moored to the Fa Xian. The tug pulling the stern does it all the time to keep the tanker in tension so that they do not drift together. The other tug is taking the export pipe to the tanker.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/Aerialshots72008017.jpg[/URL]

There wasn’t a lot to do when not flying. The TVs were all set for the Chinese crew and the Italians seemed to hibernate in their cabins. There was, however, a massive bonus. In the galley them was a soft ice cream machine with an unlimited supply of paper cups and plastic spoons. Every time we landed on to refuel I would leave the co-pilot to it and wizz down to the galley and bring up an armful of ice cream. The Chinese aren’t fond of ice cream so I would have the whole lot to myself. There wasn’t any alcohol but I had a suspicion that the Italians had a hidden supply of wine.

The problem with FPSOs and the Fa Xian in particular is that they are always pointing into the wind as they weathercock around the buoy. In fresh breezes and above this means that you get all the turbulence from the superstructure and in the Fa Xians case the twin funnels. In certain cases you would just drop at the twenty foot level and you would wait until the rotors ground cushion effect stopped you slamming into the deck. You could, as the 332 is stressed for 5m/sec (900ft/min) landings, accept quite a thump and believe me sometimes you did.

The week soon passed and then I was back in Shekou wrapping myself around a pint of draught Tiger.

B-7955 only did a couple of more weeks in the offshore contract. Then it went into the hanger and a team from the factory tore it apart and rebuilt it as an offshore aircraft with plug doors, nineteen seats and soft lining. I don't know what happened to the original kit; probably part exchanged to go in another one.

Fionn101
22nd Jul 2015, 13:41
Fascinating stories FED

Danny42C
23rd Jul 2015, 20:14
Cooda Shooda,

(Note: "[PCS]" stands for "Peter C. Smith "Vengeance" (Airlife Publishing) 1986)
.
Following my Post [p.358, #7153], I've had a re-think of the vexed question of the identity of the Camden (Narellan) Vultee Vengeance, and have decided to re-open the matter. (This may seem a pettifogging point to some, but as it's the only one left in the world, and I'm very possibly the only man in the northern hemisphere left alive who flew them operationally, I think it's incumbent on me to try and get the Museum story of my old warhorse right).

There is a great deal about this on Page 132 et seq of this Thread, but it all boils down to: Is it a Mark IA, as catalogued by the Museum, or a Mark IV, as we maintained ? Does this matter ? I think it does ! Since we settled the matter to our own satisfaction here some three years ago, I have dug a bit deeper, and found that some of the "facts" on which we based our argument are not as watertight as we first thought.

Fact No.1: All mark IVs (US A-35s) carry four (or six) 0.50 Brownings in the wings, and one in the back. All marks I-II-III (US A-31s) carry four 0.300 Brownings in the wings, and two 0.300 (0.303 if RAF/RAAF) in the back. Or so they did when they left the factory. The thing in Narellan has one great 0.50 sticking out the back for all the world to see. So it's a Mk.IV ? We..ll, not necessarily !

Suppose someone had a Mk.I that had had the rear guns taken out (very likely when it was put out to grass as an instructional fuselage, as this one was). A Museum gets hold of it, but can't find a twin 0.303 set to replace it when they set about restoring it to display condition. But they can find a 0.50. (and mounting pillar - perhaps the same pillar as the twin 0.300/303s used - I guess a single 0.50 with ammo might be much the same weight as two 0.300s).

To be fair to ourselves, this possibility (actually the replacement of the entire glasshouse and gun was suggested) was considered [p.133, #2650], but discarded as highly improbable. But very recently, roaming in [PCS] (which I normally use only as a reference book), I came across a very interesting pic on p.169, captioned: "close up of the reconstructed rear cockpit of the Narellan VV with single 0.5 in calibre gun - Wayne Brown" [PCS]

Wayne Brown is no stranger, I quote:

"....interested volunteers. One of these, who has specialised on the Vengeance, is LAC Wayne Brown from 77 Squadron Engine Section at RAAF Base Williamstown. He very kindly provided details of the work conducted there on this aircraft...". [PCS].

So there's one leg of our argument kicked away for a start !

Fact No.2 is more arguable. All Mks I-II-III (US A-31) had exactly the same pilot's panel. I flew them all for three years ('43 -'46) and remember them well. What is in the Narellan one is like nothing I've ever seen. In particular, we poured scorn on the double "ball" instruments (only to find that they were not unique: the sad find some time ago of the 70 year old tragedy of the P-40 in the Sahara made me admit [137/2723]: "So they did have two ball indicators. Only question now is - Why? - You can only watch one at a time. One can't go u/s (unless gravity has been suspended) - and they're still working). We'll never know. Better leave it alone".

So that means the Camden panel isn't a one-off, any other Mk.IV would presumably look much the same; we haven't got a firm ident feature to tie all the other pics to Camden. after all.

Fact No.2 doesn't look too healthy now, does it ?

So we must fall back on the two differences that cannot be hidden from the careful eye; and now, Cooda Shooda, I must ask your help a second time. Can you contact your "Warbirds" Vengeance enthusiasts (and I'm sure some of them will be in Sydney), and see, (when the Camden [Narellan] Museum reopens), whether the wing has a zero or 4º Angle of Incidence, as I suspect it will. That will settle it, for it would be no use drilling a new set of holes in the centre section to "bodge" the AoI to zero, it wouldn't fit properly and certainly wouldn't fly, as all the strength had been taken out of the Main Spar assembly !

Second difference: Off with the front gun panels, the guns will have long gone, but the mountings will still be there, it should be obvious what size of gun was there originally. (I exclude the possibility that the mountings have been "swopped" in the same way as the rear guns have [admittedly] been !)

Tempt your "Warbirds" enthusiasts with this letter, tell em' about PPRune (they're probably on it already anyway). When (and if) they find any bits of a Mk.I lying about, I will advise if I can (call me on Open Post on this Thread, so we can all join in the fun), but remember I was just a "Driver(Airframe)", I know how a nut goes on a bolt, but that's about all, so don't be too technical.

Cheers, Danny42C.

PS: I've accumulated a whole pile of stuff in my researches, but will not bother you with it now. But, if I can ever find out how to open a NeW Thread on Mil.Aviation (yes, I've clicked on the button like the man says, but nowt happens), I'll put it on for anyone who might be interested, then it can lapse into oblivion.

D.

CoodaShooda
23rd Jul 2015, 21:02
Danny
It will be my pleasure to see what I can do. :ok:

Fareastdriver
23rd Jul 2015, 21:34
Whilst I had been away those four years there had been some changes. Where previously the aircraft had been predominately British registered with a couple of Chinese ones the position was now reversed. They had bought several aircraft including two brand new ones. We now had variety on the outside and also in the inside. The first two they had bought, 7951 and 2, had metric instruments, so the altimeters were in metres and the airspeed in kilometres/hour. Metric height was easy, the Chinese, as do the Russians and French, use metric flight levels and it was quite pleasant with your ASI reading 250 instead of 135. I had only known system pressures and temperatures in Pumas to be metric but one was in lbs/sqin and horrifically high numbers they were too.

The days of pumping 2,500lbs of fuel in it and going anywhere had gone. There were several new platforms, some extensions of the old fields but others further out. They had already surveyed an area close to the 200 mile territorial limit and the disputes were starting into who owned which island or sandbar in the South China Sea.

China had the advantage of having 3,000 years of recorded history so some admiral would have landed on some island, slammed the Emperor’s standard in the ground and claimed it for China; at the same time he would have wrote it down. He may well have been chased of by the natives the next day but they didn’t, or couldn’t, write it down so China had the only record as to who possessed it at that time. I know from my contacts there that there are zillions of barrels of oil and cubic feet of gas in that sea. They just need the political settlements to start producing it.

I was only going to be able to work there for six months before the dreaded 65 point came up. The company did not have any spare pilots to send to China, that’s why I was there. They had filled some positions with pilots from their Australian operation. One of these was a training captain and also a Australian CASA (Civil Aviation Safety Authority) examiner. Talking about my impending doom he suggested I get an Australian licence because they did not have an age limit for public transport. He pointed out that Qantas pilots who have to stop flying 747s around the world because of the ICAO limit end up flying 737s between Sydney and Melbourne so that they can pay their alimony and children’s university fees.

I thought that there might be a limit on the age that you could apply for a licence but apparently there wasn’t. Retirees had started flying and progressed up to commercial flying with no problem. The only limit was that after your 80th birthday your medical had to be done in Canberra. I thought about it but it wasn’t highly optimistic.

I had my fourth retirement party in the roof garden of Macawley’s, an Irish bar in Shekou. It was the day before Chinese New Year and already the barrage of enormous fireworks had started. There weren’t any speeches; you couldn’t hear yourself think so it was with a heavy heart that I got on the ferry to Chek Lap Kok and the 747 back to the UK.

I had been back about a month and there was this nagging thought about getting an Australian licence. On an impulse I flew back to China to do a bit of research. We established that there were no bars to getting an Oz ATPL(H) as long as I passed the exams. CPL Law, ATPL Law and IREX, the instrument written test. The other problem was China. Would they accept an over sixty five, remembering ICAO, and endorse his licence. The question was put to CAAC and they came back with an affirmative.

There was a smoking trail of shoe leather to the ferry as I went to Hong Kong International, climbed into a Cathy 747 and punched off to Perth.

Fionn101
24th Jul 2015, 08:43
Danny , Sir, there may be many a reason why your laptop cannot start a new thread in the military forum section.

Might I suggest starting the thread from a different laptop. and then continue replying to the thread from your own airframe.

Enjoy the weekend,
Fionn

Fareastdriver
24th Jul 2015, 11:23
Same laptop, Military Aviation page, top left 'New Thread'. Click that and start but make sure you give it a title.

Union Jack
24th Jul 2015, 11:39
Same laptop, Military Aviation page, top left 'New Thread'. Click that and start but make sure you give it a title. - FED

Alternatively, "Same laptop, Military Aviation page, top right "Forum Tools" (under "Pages), "Post a New Thread". Click that and start but make sure you give it a title.":)

PS FED - Whilst writing, a warm thank you for the very well written record of your own fascinating experiences:ok:

Centaurus
24th Jul 2015, 12:46
but once an unfortunate Met man, having ended his spiel, chanced his arm and asked "Any Questions ?"


Reminded me of the time I was at a Met briefing - I forget exactly where. Maybe No. 10 Squadron Townsville in the 1950's. The weather man was a rough as guts, curt no nonsense Aussie who had very little time for smart-arse questions.

One sergeant pilot who was well known as a supercilious arrogant young bloke asked "Can you tell us the height of the zero degree isotherm?"

The MET man look at him coldly and replied in his grating accent "You mean the f***ing freezing level, don't you?"
The whole room collapsed with laughter..

Danny42C
24th Jul 2015, 16:08
CoodaShooda,

That was quick ! Thank you, Sir - "Bis dat qui cito dat" - "He gives twice who gives quickly" (I'd closed laptop down after sending mine off). Let's hope your chaps can turn something up (interestingly, it seems that even the Smithsonian hasn't got an A-31 or an A-35 either, so Camden is one up on them, too).

FED,

More wonderful stories ! I'll take time to go through carefully to get the full flavour. This is exactly what we need in our cybercrewroom. And what a CV !

FED, Fionn, and Jack,

Thanks for the advice.

May be some time getting the stuff in order before I try (and then there's always the possibility of "fog in the cockpit!"

Danny.

Fareastdriver
24th Jul 2015, 20:01
I was going to Perth because that was where the Company’s Australian arm was. I knew some of them from Darwin and also from Aberdeen. During the 80s Aberdeen had been chronically short of pilots so had recruited a number of Australians. They had no experience of offshore work but were brought to the UK, given the necessary training and licences, and flew as co-pilots. They were quite highly paid, as all people who work the wrong side of our world are. They were one of the reasons why as a contract pilot I was not embarrassed by earning more than the staff. At that time on the North Sea I would have an Australian co-pilot with less than twenty hours twin engine and offshore experience earning more than I was.

The company was physically in an excellent position as they were in the same building and floor as the Western Australia office of CASA. The company could not help me with training as they always recruited licensed pilots. A copy of the Air Law burnt onto a disc was the best they could do. The CASA reps were fantastic; helpful, informative and full of encouragement. There was one ex North Sea pilot who whom I knew that had been through this rigmarole and he imparted some excellent advice; that was to get professional tuition for the IREX exam. This I did, expensive, about A$1,200, but worth every cent. The exams are done in real time so a full set of upper and lower en route charts plus the let-down plates for every Australian airfield cost me another A$400. I sorted had a nice room in a hotel run by Taiwanese and had a rented car outside. Twenty eight days I had planned for, I was hoping it wasn’t going to take any longer.

The IREX lessons took about a week and there were a couple of days mugging up on CPL law which I had to take first. Then came the little problem of the exams.

They were all done on a computer using multiple choice answers. That wasn’t the problem; the problem was finding a computer to sit in front of. There were exam centres in the major cities. Perth’s was near Jandakot, a large flying club type airfield which had multiple flying schools, a lot of them training Chinese airline cadets en masse and that was the problem, they had a large number sitting various exams so it was booked up solid. I desperately searched the country and there were two slots in Adelaide. I flashed up Virgin Blue and booked a return to Adelaide and then booked my CPL Air Law slot in Adelaide.

On arrival I rented another car, I now had two. They gave me a big street map and I went to find the examination location. It was a vacant shop in a new shopping centre in a new housing estate. It took me an hour to find it because the area wasn’t, as yet, mapped properly. Then to find a hotel nearby with broadband so I could get some last minute swotting. I now had two hotel rooms as well.

When I arrived at the centre in the morning it was thick with Chinese airline cadets doing their exams. I didn’t have time to talk to them as I was being briefed by my invigilator. The system was easy if you were familiar with a computer so I went through the questions fairly rapidly. An attractive Chinese girl next to me wasn’t having so much luck. It is difficult enough in the first place if you are new at it but even more when the exam in not in your native language. I had this compelling urge to prompt her but I knew that if I did I would certainly be chucked out. When I was satisfied I called the man over, he ran my answers though the programme and up it came with PASS. I had got over the first hurdle.

In the hotel foyer I got on the internet to search next week for slots; there were none, nowhere. I had to book my IREX and ATPL Air Law a fortnight ahead just to make sure. That being done I returned the car and flew back to Perth.

To be continued.

Danny42C
24th Jul 2015, 23:02
Fionn,

".....there may be many a reason...." I can give you one - I'm an idiot !
Thank you for the suggestion, but I preferred:

FED and Jack,

Hallelujah ! It works ! :ok: (but don't hold your breath),

Thanks, Danny.

BBadanov
24th Jul 2015, 23:18
Danny,

Apologies if this has been covered previously and I missed it, but the Camden/Narellan Vengeance is an A-31 Mk IA, RAF serial EZ999 (RAAF A27-99 was allocated, but never applied).

BBad

Danny42C
25th Jul 2015, 00:54
BBad,

So the Museum says ! But there are contrary opinions (my #7235 to Cooda Shooda in Darwin a couple of days ago is a starter (but we have been kicking this around for quite a while; if you go back three years to Page 132 of this Thread, you'll find all and sundry getting in on the act).

As you may have seen, I have a load of material which needs sorting out. When I've found time for that, will put it in on new Post in titled "The Mystery of the Narellan Vengeance" (or something dramatic to that effect !)

If you have anything to add to the pile, please tell us (and are you in Sydney by any chance ?)

Cheers, Danny.

BBadanov
25th Jul 2015, 01:35
No, sorry for coming in late Danny, but I have never heard of the identity of EZ999 being in doubt. I will try and dig out the RAAF aircraft status card, which should show it was probably sold off as scrap postwar for 10 quid!


No, I am not in Sydney, but up north in QLD.
Also I believe that the museum is closed to the public at the moment.


PS. Ok, I went back to page 132 and see that its disposal is given as: "It was delivered to 2AD RAAF in June 1943 and was approved as free issue to the RAN in April 1948, but this ordered was cancelled in June 1948. After passing to Department of Aircraft Production for disposal, EZ999 was issued to Sydney Technical College, School of Aircraft Engineering for apprentice training until May 1963. It was acquired by the then proposed Aviation Museum and stored privately until January 1965 then to the Museum and is the only Vultee Vengeance on display in the world."

Danny42C
25th Jul 2015, 05:55
Bbad,

There is no doubt that a Mk.IA VV EZ999 existed and came to Australia (that is extremely well documented). What is at issue is whether this is it, or is another Mark of VV pretending to be it - in other words, a "ringer" !

Watch this space for a few days and All will be Revealed !

Yes, the Museum is presently closed for refurbishment, but their website says that we can send messages to them: I tried that a month ago but got no reply to date.

The Museum is deserving of all praise for saving this, the very last Vultee Vengeance from extinction; my only interest (as an old Vengeance driver) is that what they've got should be correctly described. It deserves that, at least.

Danny.

MPN11
25th Jul 2015, 09:10
Danny42C ... you weren't Hercule Poirot in a previous existence, were you? :)

I have nothing to contribute to the VV debate - I just find it absolutely fascinating!