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Danny42C
26th Jul 2014, 17:34
MPN11 and Jaganpvs,

MPN11, surely they're not going to knock down that beautiful old Art Deco building down just because it encroaches on a 1:7 approach slope ? It was built for a slower, more gracious age when things like the HP42 floated gently down on Croyden and Le Bourget.

That was nothing but a big 4-motor Tiger Moth, Imperial Airways flew it down the Empire air routes for ten years pre-war, it never hurt a passenger in all its days. They had big, comfortable Lloyd-Loom type wicker chairs and there were little chintz curtains on the windows.

I suppose it would come in about 1:4 (not like today's projectiles, which hurtle in, scraping the boundary fence at about double the speed of the HP42's cruise, and then need most of 12,000 feet to top.) Biplanes for ever !

Jagan, At least they're not going to tear down yours at Begumpet - yet ! Looks to have been built in the same, leisurely, elegant era when the Raj looked as if it would last for ever ! - and regle (RIP) was the personal pilot of Mr Ratan Tata (Reg's Posts are way back on this Thread, including the gripping one of his hi-jack at Tel Aviv, when he was a Sabena 707 Captain. EDIT: Page 90 #1786 et seq this Thread.

Glad we cleared up the "966" mystery. But why would I not know they burned it ? As far as I was concerned, when it was struck off my charge, I must have simply forgotten all about it.

Danny.

Danny42C
26th Jul 2014, 19:50
It was summertime, but I'm not sure which summer. Anyway, there was this NATO exercise somewhere up by Otterburn, IIRC, and the Belgians were taking part. As far as Leeming was concerned, their part consisted of four (?) C-119 Fairchild "Flying Boxcars". I would think that they brought over and dropped paratroops as their share of the exercise, then landed back at Leeming to await the end (two weeks) and take their troops back.

Meanwhile their aircraft were parked down at the SW side of the airfield. Naturally we went across to have a look; the thing looked a very useful piece of machinery indeed and I found (as always) that Belgian French is easier to get along with than French French (not that I could speak much of either).

They were no problem ATC-wise. Their arrival filled the skies with the sonorous roar of two (each) Pratt & Whitney R-4360 "Wasp Majors" (3,500 hp). These, to be the last of the noble line of P&W piston aero engines, were 28-cylinder four-row radial monsters of about 70 litres swept volume: they could kick up a fair row at full chat.

The C-119s were expected to stay put (more or less) during their detachment, but after a day or so they started to do "admin" trips back home & return. And it was noted that they seemed always to go out well down on the oleos, and take up nearly all of Leeming's 7,500 ft before lifting, bellowing, off, yet returning "light" the same day, Clearly there was something inside which didn't come back.

It was another couple of days before the mystery was solved. There was sudden complaint from the Patches that the NAAFI was always short of butter; it seemed that the shelves were being cleared as soon as they were stocked. This was long before the Common Agricultural Policy, and for some strange reason it seems that NAAFI butter was then much cheaper than Belgian butter. The commercial possibilities were obvious, and were being exploited to the full by our canny visitors.

I read that the C-119 has a 10,000 lb payload capacity, and it has stacks of room inside. At only a few pence/centimes (?) per half-pound, a very lucrative trade was being developed. Our Customs took no interest in the departures, and as they always came back empty, there was nothing to worry them there (what happened at the Belgian Customs, I don't want to know).

The NAAFI profits jumped up, our guests were happy, it was win-win all round. (Except, of course, for the butterless Leeming wives, and most people did a weekly shop in Northallerton anyway).

Not only did we provide our Belgian friends with this splendid opportunity, but on one occasion we supplied entertainment as well. They were housed more or less across from the S end of our main runway. A (dual) JP lined-up for take-off on 34 and opened the throttle. It got about 100 yds (just about opposite a group of Belgians who were taking their ease on the grass in the warm sunshine and watching the show), when a turbine wheel in the Viper burst. The shrapnel effectively bisected the JP, but did not harm the occupants, who naturally vacated the premises without further delay. There was no fire.

Although they were directly in the line of fire, the onlookers were untouched, and after Crash One and Two had attended and made all safe, strolled across to join OC (Tech) and his minions, (our guests' faith in the excellence of British aero engineering sadly diminished). And they helped in the task of picking up bits of scrap blades, etc. off the runway.

At the end of the fortnight, their "battle"-weary paratroops were bussed-back for the flight home (of course, there was no room for any more butter). We said farewell to our Belgian friends, with many expressions of mutual esteem. The supply of butter at Leeming returned to normal.

Goodnight, all.

Danny42C.


All's well that Ends Well !

ancientaviator62
27th Jul 2014, 08:22
Danny,
one of 'your' C119s wearing battledress.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/ancientaviator62/THAITOUR1_zpsa2e9cbf8.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/ancientaviator62/media/THAITOUR1_zpsa2e9cbf8.jpg.html)

MPN11
27th Jul 2014, 09:58
ancientaviator62 ... Ah, AC-119K (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_AC-119). Nice bit of kit, IMO.

Danny42C ... JER wasn't HP42 territory of course. But the new airport was better than using the beach (http://www.theislandwiki.org/index.php/Jersey_Airport). It was mainly DH-89 Dragon Rapide territory pre-War. :)

http://www.theislandwiki.org/images/b/b0/EightPlanes.jpg

ancientaviator62
27th Jul 2014, 10:34
MPN11,
it is indeed an AC119. Pic taken in Thailand during the Vietnam War.
No much room inside this version for Danny's butter !

Danny42C
27th Jul 2014, 16:31
ancientaviator62 and MPN11,

Lovely photos (how the Jersey beach shot conjures up the endless sunny summer days just before the war). All sorts of things (but mainly five-bob "hop" merchants) flew off the beaches, nobody seemed to mind and I don't think many little boys got trampled on by aeroplanes.

What are lined up are Dragon Rapides (DH89) and their big brothers, DH Express (sometimes "Empire") Air Liners (DH86). why the numbering is that way, I don't know. IIRC the plain Dragon [DH84] came first, then the sleeker Dragon Rapide, then the Express.

Yes, the C-119 "Packet" looks a big, tough brute, doesn't it ? Has No.2 prop been through a sandstorm lately ?

One small cavil: please can we slim the photos down a bit, so's they fit in better ?

Thanks to you both, Danny.

MPN11
27th Jul 2014, 17:35
One small cavil: please can we slim the photos down a bit, so's they fit in better ?

Mine is only a little one. It was him, Sir, that big old boy over there by the bike shed :E


Flight planning must have been interesting, as the huge tidal range in Jersey only allowed a few hours of operation before the incoming tide reached the sea wall in the background. And not 5-bob hops either - this was scheduled airline operation to assorted southern UK airports.

ancientaviator62
28th Jul 2014, 07:55
Danny,
the L/H prop looks very new. A few hours in those conditions and it will be the twin of the R/H one.

Danny42C
29th Jul 2014, 21:23
All the time I was at Leeming, we enjoyed good relations with Teesside "International" Airport (well, they did have daily flights to Schipol, and there was the summer charter traffic to Jersey and the Costas). The airfield was the old RAF Middleton St.George (sold for a song to a consortium of Local Authorities in the'60s, and they got the Ghost thrown in). They built themselves a nice little Terminal Building, converted the O.M. into the St.George Hotel and opened for business.They ran a five-a-day connecting shuttle to Heathrow (first flight out 0615, last back about 2230).

During my time I think British Midland had the contract. IIRC, they started with a Viscount, then had a 737 (old stlye), then a DC-7 for a while and lastly a new pattern 737. Many years after my retirement, I think BMIbaby inherited the LHR shuttle, business was not too brisk and their PR wizards thought that a new name might pep things up.

So the good folk of Teesside woke up one morning to find that they were now the proud owners of "The Durham and Tees Valley International Airport". (The rumour was that BMIbaby, in thrall to their PR experts, had demanded this change as a condition for continuing the service, which was not exactly a money-spinner: the airport Authority was over a barrel and had to capitulate).

The Good Folk previously mentioned (and just about everyone else) found this a source of much innocent merriment, and continued to call it "Teesside Airport" (and do so to this day). We all know that anybody in Durham who wants to fly somewhere jumps in the car and roars off up the A1(M) to Newcastle. Not only is it quicker and easier than to get to D&TV (MME), but you had a much better choice of destinations at NCL.

And now you have an infinitely better choice. For after a year or so BMIbaby (?) had to accept that they were never going to make a go of it, and pulled out, leaving MME with the Schipol route, some oil-rig flights to Aberdeen, a Flying School and not much else apart from a silly name. And how they keep going, I don't know.

But now we will backtrack 45 years to the ATC at Leeming. At that time Teesside still had only their ACR-7D radar (and I don't think the RAF had left the CR/CA/DF behind). Of course, they had ILS, which was all the civil side wanted. My old colleague at Strubby, John Henderson, had retired and was SATCO there; several times I'd taken parties of our new trainees over for liaison visits (HughGw01 mentioned one such trip some time since).

The only occasions we needed to co-ordinate air movements were on their ten daily MME-LHR transits to and from the Pole Hill VOR (about 60 miles). When our 16 was in use, the Safety Lane was out to the NW, and their direct route crossed it about 12 miles out. So every 1½ hours from 0630 to about 2230, they would use our direct line to get a clipped response: "Clear direct to the Pole" or (if we had anything conflicting): "Clear to Point Alpha". This was a spot somewhere up round Barnard Castle (about 14 mi N); the dog-leg only added a few minutes to the flight, but kept them a lot safer. There have never been any near misses. (All their holiday traffic went out and in from Ottringham, well away from us).

One evening, near the end of my time, 3 AFS had finished for the day, night was falling and we had no traffic at Leeming. Teesside came on the phone. They were trying to recover a "puddle-jumper", and not having much success. Some farmers on North Yorkshire's broad acres are not short of a bob or two, they could get themseves a PPL at Teesside, buy a light aircraft, hangar it in a barn, and they had plenty of their own flat grassland to fly from. Naturally they flew whenever they wanted with no reference to anybody. They were just a small addition to all the Bloggses daily wandering about at all heights and in all directions from the several RAF training Stations in the Vale of York ("Death Valley !" in civil parlance).

It seemed that this particular Farmer Giles had gone down to visit the farm of a friend somewhere near Hull, but had left it a little (well, rather a lot) late starting back. Consequently he'd been overtaken by darkness, which prevented a safe attempt to land on home turf (where of course there was no lighting - nor much else, apart from a home-made windsock). No problem, he'd go on to Teesside (not much further), leave the aircraft there; Mrs Farmer G would come up by road and collect him.

Now how much night flying he'd done (or whether he'd done any - do you need it for a PPL ?), I don't know. Then, predictably, he got lost and was wandering forlornly about somewhere in the skies of North Yorkshire. Teesside's puny radar was little help: if he had a radio compass he'd no idea how to use it: he was "up the creek without a paddle" and no mistake. I'd always been boasting about this wondrous AR-1 we had - could I possibly assist ? Noblesse oblige !: "Of course", said D., "Never fear, Leeming is here - I'll take him. Leave the line open. I'll see what we can do". (Why do I never learn NOT TO VOLUNTEER).

The first task was to establish contact, it took some time to cajole him to come off their VHF frequency, launch into the unknown and try all the buttons until we got him on 117.9. Now it was up to me, it should be plain sailing. "Approach" got a QTE on CR/DF, he was somewhere to the East. "Talkdown" (humble self) looked down the line and there he was, 25 miles East, mooching about helplessly over the North York Moors.

These run up to about 1200 ft AMSL, and not very far from him was Bilsdale TV Mast (another 1000 on top of that). There was broken cloud at 2500. At all costs I must keep him away from that Mast, and get him out of the hills onto the plains ASAP. Shouldn't be difficult - I had him under control (or thought I had). First things first. I got him to set QNH and told him, on pain of death, not to go below 2500 until otherwise advised.

Knowing exactly where Bilsdale was, all I needed to do was to move him North till he was well out of harm's way, then West. But I would tell him to fly North, and he would fly East. Or East, and he would go South. I queried his compass, but was assured that that had been fine so far. So why...?

"Nay, lad", he'd say, "there's cloud in t'way". This was going to be interesting (to put it mildly). Teesside ATC, having offloaded this nightmare onto me, were enjoying it all enormously from their safe standpoint, and offered sympathy.

I thought I might soon need it. There was only one end to this carry-on: the prognosis was not good. A vision was forming in my mind, of a Coroner's Court with me as the star witness at an Inquest. What was his fuel state ? He wasn't quite sure, but anyway "he'd had plenty when he set off ". Somehow (I ascribe it mainly to the power of prayer !), we got him off the high ground and from then on it was easy. I offset my centre spot onto T/side, then zoomed in progressively until I could put him on long finals for their 04 (045 ?) - the scene of my faux-pas some 19 years before). I stepped him down to 1000 ft with ten miles to go to touch down, they took him back onto their ACR-7, and it was in the bag.

It was the custom in those gracious days, for the countryfolk in these parts to reward doctors, vets (and any other professionals) who had done them good service over the year) with a suitable token (always in kind) of their esteem at Christmas. Old Dr. Swanston could have set up an off-licence in his Thirsk surgery with the bottles of Port, Sherry and "Old Sheep Dip", to say nothing of the hams and legs of lamb which were left there.

I waited in pleasant expectation. Not a sausage ! Ah, well. :(

Goodnight, all.

Danny42C.


Virtue is its own reward ?

jaganpvs
30th Jul 2014, 00:08
Danny

Look what turns up in the mail. A member of the RAFCommands board Scott read the post and emailed me the following Picture..

This is the Harvard FE965 that you wrote about (http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/329990-gaining-r-f-pilots-brevet-ww11-158.html#post7479196) and the terrain looks very different from the "966" in the Album

Anyway - a great picture to accompany your great story!

http://www.rafcommands.com/galleries/var/resizes/SEAC/1340-SD-Flight/Harvard-FE965.jpg?m=1406678290 (http://www.rafcommands.com/galleries/photos/731)

Danny42C
30th Jul 2014, 21:28
jaganpvs,

This is fascinating ! I've examined the photo minutely, and observe as follows:

I have no recollection of W/Cdr Edmondes (or anybody else) saying anything about a fire in the air at the time. Yet the aircraft shows scorch/smoke marks back from the engine. Even those might be not fire marks, but old oil streaks.

Standing on the wing is an IAF Corporal (no cap ?) Probably from the Repair and Salvage Unit which took it over from me - as also is the figure bending over the cockpit, talking to some one inside. This is a British officer (check cap, smart dherzi-tailored shorts, long woolen socks) who may be RSU (RAF) or from Porcal (Army), but certainly none of mine.

On the far side is an Indian police constable, as is at least one of the figures in the group in the background. The Harvard is in a growing paddy field, seemingly perched on a paddy-bund.

As I said, once the aircraft was off my inventory, I had no further interest in it. Strangely, although I had flown Harvards before and after, I never flew that one - it was solely the W/Cdr's "perk", although it was on my Unit charge and we serviced it. This was now post-war; if originally US-supplied it would certainly have been Lend-Lease. Even if it were repairable, they would now take it back after our repair, oherwise we'd have to destroy it if we didn't want to pay for it. What would have been the position had it been Canadian-built [Canadian Car & Foundry) ? - I don't know).

The easiest solution all round was to destroy it on the spot, so that is what they did. They chopped it up and torched it. That I didn't know (or if I did know, I've entirely forgotten).

This is a wonderful find - many thanks , Jagan. (and also to your correspondent "Scott" of the "RAF Commands Board" (??).

Cheers, Danny.

Warmtoast
30th Jul 2014, 23:02
Danny42C

Yet the aircraft shows scorch/smoke marks back from the engine

Perhaps this was standard for Harvards. Witness the two photos below showing similar discolouration.

Photos were taken by me at 5 FTS (RAF Thornhill) S. Rhodesia in 1951 - number two is of a "wheels-up" in the Bundu.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/Harvard1a_zps8a37c167.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/Thornhill-Harvard3.jpg

Hempy
31st Jul 2014, 08:18
jaganpvs, This is a wonderful find - many thanks , Jagan. (and also to your correspondent "Scott" of the "RAF Commands Board" (??).

Cheers, Danny.

Danny, another wonder of the interweb you may enjoy

http://www.rafcommands.com/

Danny42C
31st Jul 2014, 18:36
Warmtoast,

What lovely photos of one of the most important of military aircraft of the 20th century ! The intact specimen shows the cockpit heating arrangement which would make today's 'Elf'n Pastry' have a severe attack of the vapours.

The exhaust pipe is enclosed in a sort of sheet steel "muff" or sleeve, ram air is driven through the narrow gap, warmed and piped into the cockpit. The danger is obvious. IIRC, in the AT-6A, the pipe and sleeve were much longer, so that the instructor in the back seat got the benefit (or the CO, whichever way you look at it) .....D.

On the floor of the cockpit was an open pipe end with a closing flap you fiddled round with your toe. ....D.

jaganpvs,

Another thought, why does FE965 have such big airframe numbers ? (wild guess: they'd been taken from the IAF Hurricane and VV OTUs, where the ground crews would more easily see them when they were coming back into the line (in which case, what is the '0' under the rear cockpit for ?) ....D.

hempy,

What a feast you've laid before me ! Thanks - I'm really going to enjoy this ! ....D. (but Ars Longa, vita brevissimus)

Cheers, everyone. Danny.

Warmtoast
31st Jul 2014, 20:12
Danny

Here's an enlargement showing the heating duct going through the middle of the exhaust pipe that you described above.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/ExhaustHeat-exchanger_1280x676.jpg

...and below my favourite Harvard photo of the many I took whilst at 5 FTS.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/Harvard2.jpg

smujsmith
1st Aug 2014, 22:21
Warmtoast, Danny,

I have to suspect that that heating arrangement has all the capability of the "hose from the exhaust pipe" suicide attempt of times in the past. What a thought that the potential was there to somnambulise the crew !!!! Some great photographs coming in now, keep them flowing.

Smudge:ok:

Hempy
2nd Aug 2014, 05:47
Warmtoast. Your last photo is a great shot. You might recall it captured my attention so much on another occasion that I spent some time on it to liven it up a bit. I erroneously posted a draft of that work to you once, here is the finished product. I had no idea of the colour of the ground (brown/red), but it looked quite rich. Would be happy to fix it!

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k144/h3mpy/Harvard2_recoloured2-1.jpg

Danny,
I can't claim recognition, your great stories have led members of that site to visit this site to read them!

Deepest Norfolk
2nd Aug 2014, 06:19
Hey, Danny. Hadn't changed when I was at Leeming way back when I was but a lad. They used to bring their Hercs in on exercise and load them with butter too. I think it was something to do with salted/unsalted and the inability to get one or the other in Belgium, although can't remember which they couldn't get. Wherever they went, the story goes, they would check the availability and then they would stock up on whichever one it was and fly it off to Belgium.

I well remember TeesSide Airport in my younger days. Dad and I used to visit the tower, Tuesday evenings, Thursday evenings and Saturday afternoon in pre John Henderson days. Len Taylor was Satco and then he went off to New Zealand and John H became Satco. I spent many a happy hour watching crew training from the tower and we got a few trips out of it as well with the likes of British Eagle, Tarom and Bavaria when they were converting onto BAC 1-11s and BKS were operating the London service with Airspeed Ambassadors and Later with Britannias. Dan Air were flying scheduled with C-47s and Autair tried a London Luton service with predictable results. They were usually late, spawning the slogan, "Time to spare, go Autair".


Eventually I ended up working as a Traffic Officer with BMA when they did the LHR shuttle with Viscount 800s but I left and went to Aberdeen when some really obnoxious oik from EMA came in and took over from Mike Finlay as Station Manager.

After a fairly short while in Aberdeen I joined the RAF and my first posting was Leeming, 76-78.

Chugalug2
2nd Aug 2014, 09:35
Interesting that the engines of the two 'pranged' Harvards have parted from their mountings in precisely the same way. Another design feature?

MPN11
2nd Aug 2014, 10:07
Interesting that the engines of the two 'pranged' Harvards have parted from their mountings in precisely the same way. Another design feature?
Large heavy object with forward momentum bolted to fragile lightweight object with similar momentum? Seems quite predictable to me :cool:

pulse1
2nd Aug 2014, 10:20
The C119 picture brought back some very happy memories for me. In the mid 50's, as an ATC cadet, we often cycled out to RAF LLandow to unofficially help to refuel the Vampires of 614 Sdn Aux. One particular weekend we got there to discover that 614 had gone away for the weekend. The whole place, including the parachute section was closed up.

We were just about to leave, having made a nuisance of ourselves playing in some derelict Mosquitos and Lancasters when 3 USAF C119's came into land and a lorry loads of paratroopers appeared on the tarmac. They were about to do drop over Fairwood Common so we set about scrounging a ride. First, we needed parachutes (not that we would be jumping out too) but, as mentioned, the section was closed. So we approached the Army in the form of the RSM to be told firmly that there would be no passengers on this trip.

So, very disappointed, we watched as everyone embarked until one of the crew came to the door and asked us if we were coming. We explained that we didn't have parachutes and, to our delight, he appeared with two parachutes and in we got. Fortunately it was not the aircraft with the RSM on board.

What an amazing experience for an ATC cadet, taking off with 32 more passengers than we landed with, watching a Landrover drop from one of the other aircraft, enjoying the roomy cockpit with well used ashtrays all over the place, standing at the open rear door looking at the ground about 800' below and feeling somewhat airsick.

I had never heard of reverse thrust in those days so, as we landed back at LLandow, I thought that the nose wheel had collapsed as there was a terrible noise and the nose pitched down. A fantastic experience.

Fareastdriver
2nd Aug 2014, 20:18
I had no idea of the colour of the ground

I think Warmtoast would agree with me, you have got it just right. I have not flown over Rhodesia as much as him but to me it looks just like the bush in the dry season.

Warmtoast
2nd Aug 2014, 21:31
Hempy

I had no idea of the colour of the ground (brown/red), but it looked quite rich. Would be happy to fix it!


After all these years difficult to remember, but ISTR in the dry season grass had a particularly straw / brown colour, foliage on trees remained green I think. Once the rains came in October / November, new grass was lush and green for a while.

..and yes Hempy I remember that you'd used your Photoshop? skills on my original photo (I kept a copy, but posted my original) - thanks for your expertise in colouring, it looks much better.

Danny42C
2nd Aug 2014, 21:37
Warmtoast,

(Your #6015): The first shot (the close-up of the heater) hardly fills you with confidence ! As Smudge says, you were dicing with death with that thing stuck onto the side. There seem to be two holes for intake, was the left one routed to the back seat ? In that case, perhaps it was either/or, who got the warm air (and/or CO) and who froze (and it gets quite nippy in Canada). No prizes for guessing who it might be when dual !

The thing was, being on the stb'd side, you didn't get around there much, and pilots did not pay much attention to this heater - indeed I myself, after 75 hours on them training in US and a fair bit more all over the place afterwards, never really examined it as closely as I'm doing now .....D.

hempy,

Nice to know that my offerings are causing interest further afield ! I think the Harvard is over S. Rhodesia. No idea what colour the soil would be there (Yamagata Ken would know). ....D.

Deepest Norfolk,

So now we've got the Final Solution to the Belgian/Butter mystery - and it wasn't confined to Leeming, after all.

(Old Russian "Salt" saying: "Na Stolye, Na Stalye" (Lit: "On the table - On the back"). Interpretation: "If the wife has put too little salt in the borcht- why, it's "on the table", you can put some more in. If there's too much - she gets it "on the back" with a stout stick !)

[Told me by an old RAF pal on Russian Language Course in Paris - all errors his - take it with a pinch of salt !].

Were you in Leeming ATC ? (I left end of '72). And was our No.1 Hangar Ghost still around ? ....D.

Chugalug and MPN11,

For whatever reason, engines often break off in forced landings. Either the top mountings break first and the rest hangs on grimly (more likely on smooth, level ground, I should say). Or in rough stuff, break off entirely (as in my case) and go Lord knows where. On 20 Sqdn we had a chap who'd had to put down an old style Typhoon somewhere in Malta. The giant Napier Sabre broke out and was gaily bounding along beside him like a playful dog, while he cowered in terror in the cockpit ! :eek: (Down, Rover, Down Sir !). No, it didn't hit him, you'll be pleased to know. ....D.

Cheers, all. Danny.

Warmtoast
2nd Aug 2014, 22:25
Danny

There seem to be two holes for intake, was the left one routed to the back seat ? In that case, perhaps it was either/or, who got the warm air (and/or CO) and who froze (and it gets quite nippy in Canada).

ISTR that the pipe was routed inside along the starboard side to serve both seats with a simple butterfly flap by each footwell to regulate the warm airflow as required.

Southern hemisphere winters even in S. Rhodesia could be cold at night and with the airfield elevation of RAF Thornhill at 4,600ft a cross county navigation flight flown at 3,000ft AGL for example, meant the aircraft was in a chilly 7,000ft plus height band.

Fareastdriver
3rd Aug 2014, 07:24
As I explained to Warmtoast previously,-----when I was a young lad in short pants looking at a Southern Rhodesian Air force Harvard at Kumalo I was told that it was a silencer to stop the game being frightened.

Danny42C
3rd Aug 2014, 15:34
Fareastdriver,

Ah, the tales they told us when we were young ! ("What are those two doggies doing, Mummy ?") :*

Schiller
4th Aug 2014, 08:47
Small nephew: "Uncle Noel, what are those two doggies doing?"

Noel Coward: "The little one in front has just gone blind, and his friend is pushing him all the way to St Dunstan's"

Danny42C
4th Aug 2014, 14:36
Schiller,

Olé ! I'd quite forgotten that one (couldn't be bettered). Merci bien !...D.

harrym
4th Aug 2014, 14:52
Warmtoast, Danny et al - Surely this was a commonplace method of heating piston-engined aircraft? The Dakota had a similar set-up, still does in fact as can be seen by a glance at any specimen still flying now, and during 700 + hours on type never (to the best of my knowledge, anyway!) leaked noxious vapours into my aircraft.

Presumably the maintenance schedules called for regular inspection, but quality of material used would have been the most important factor. I suppose stainless steel would have been best, though doubt this was used as the visible parts were always of rusty appearance.

Warmtoast
4th Aug 2014, 20:44
Not all the photos I took at RAF Thornhill were photographic masterpieces or light-hearted descriptions of 'prangs' that one walked away from totally unharmed.
Death and destruction were never far away at RAF Thornhill as I recorded a couple of years ago in an earlier PPrune thread of the night back in 1952 when three Rhodesian Air Training Group Harvards crashed killing four crew.
If you haven't seen it, it can be read here:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/454937-raf-funerals-earlier-era.html

Danny42C
5th Aug 2014, 00:10
It must have been in the summertime, but I'm not sure which year. One of the training Squadrons was on the first night of a night-flying session. The first (dual) phase of the programme had been completed. Up in the top Tower we relaxed. Approach and Talkdown were in the Approach Room. Upstairs there was a F/Sgt on Local, the Duty Instructor, an Assistant and I. The tea had just come up.

I saw it first. Gently sipping my Typhoo Tips (well, I can dream, can't I ?), I gazed absently through the West panel of the octagon across to Londonderry (yes, Geriaviator , we have one of those in North Yorkshire, too, just off to the side of Leeming). At the end of the few street lights was a very tall poppy indeed. Leeming village lights gave a pretty fair horizon. 16 statute miles West the ground rises quite steeply to some 1700 ft, the skyline 1º 9 min above the Horizon. (Great Whernside [2500 ft] lies, like a great stranded whale, about the same distance, but more SW). Directly West, the Dales and Pennines lie lower in the line of sight (0º 55 min elevation).

What interested me was a tiny, fuzzy white light. It was 2º or 2½º above the horizon, clearly in the air above the hills. Could it be the tail light of an aircraft? No, it didn't move an inch. I watched it for a half minute through the binoculars (there was little or no apparent magnification). It didn't twinkle, it wasn't a star. There were no planets low in the Western sky at this time. I turned to Local: "What d'you reckon that is, Chief ?" He looked at it for a few moments, then brightened "Oh, it's the Met Cloud Light, sir".

At all permanent flying Stations (IIRC) there is installed a small powerful spotlight, about half a mile from the Met Office (which is normally in the ground floor of the Tower), fixed to shine a narrow beam vertically into the sky. If there is low cloud over the airfield at night you'll see this little patch of light reflected from it. Met man has a simple sextant, knows the accurate distance to the light, a bit of trig, it's easy. And my spot did look exactly like a Cloud Light reflection. The only thing was, at the elevation of my spot, it would be indicating cloud at 50-100 ft - and I could see stars in the sky round it !

I called Radar below, to see what was on the AR-1. "Take the MTI out", I said, "the thing isn't moving". In or out made no difference. Nothing out in that direction up to max range - not even an owl.

Duty Instructor came in with a useful suggestion: "Let's ask the Cowboy". Whenever a solo Bloggs is in the air, there must be a solo Instuctor in the air too - the "Cowboy". His task is to "ride the range" around the Station, to warn of any "nasties" - lowering cloudbase, a wandering snowstorm, the ominous Cu-nim, which might be coming at us down the wind, or (at night especially) any signs of fog forming in the known hollows. We called the Cowboy. Yes, he could see our spot all right. What did he think it was ?:

"It's the Moon", he said, "a scrap of Moon peeping out from behind clouds". The difficulty with that explanation was - there was no Moon that night (as he might have learned, had he been paying attention to the Met man at Briefing).
Clearly there was no help to be expected from that quarter. I now had to recap: It wasn't an aircaft. It wasn't the Moon. It wasn't a star or a planet. It wasn't the Met Cloud Light. One last hope remained - Call in the Experts ! I squawked the Met box; "Would you mind coming up here, please - we've something we'd like to show you".A slightly out-of-breath young man came puffing in. Wordlessly we pointed out our spot and handed him the binoculars.

He looked long and hard: "Ah", he said, "Mmmn", he said, and laid down the binoculars decisively. "Well ?", we said, "It's a sort of little white fuzzy spot", he said. "When you have exhausted all other possibilities", said Sherlock Holmes (or words to that effect), "whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth". We had a UFO.

But it wasn't behaving as any well-brought-up UFO was supposed to do. It didn't flash from one end of the firmament to another, or whizz round like a Catherine Wheel, or flash multicoloured lights. It just sat there, motionless, and did nothing.

I realised everyone was looking at me - it was my problem ! I had no way of estimating its range. The Thing might be sitting over Londonderry at 200 ft, for all I knew. Suppose it suddenly came into Leeming and landed ? Suppose a posse of little green men were coming up the stairs ? What is the Protocol for that ? Suppose they displayed hostile intent - what defences have we ? (only the Verey pistol, and it is not a Good Idea to discharge this in a confined space). If I cannot fight, I must surrender. I have no sword to offer. Perhaps my Chinagraph pencil would do in token of submission ?

Local crystallised my unenviable predicament: "Shall we log it, sir ?" That was the $64 question. "Hang on a moment, Chief", I said, took the Hand Bearing Compass out its box on the inner wall of the Tower, went through the little door at the back onto the flat roof outside, and took the most careful bearing of my life. For if I log it, I must do something about it.

The D.I. must tell OC Night, he cannot allow take-offs till this is sorted out. I must tell (now long closed) Preston Flight Information Centre. This might not be well received. Our Powers that Be do not like pilots and ATCs who report UFO - it gives rise to Alarm and Despondency all round, and brings Contempt and Ridicule on the RAF.

And suppose I do report it, and cause maximum chaos, and then my UFO just switches off and vanishes ? (I still bore the mental scars from Manby'56 and the Horse that Never Was). But I had a pistol to my head, there was no way out. "We'd better tell S/Ldr (?)", I said to the D.I. And to the Asst: "F.I.S, please". He handed me the phone: "Hello, Leeming", said a cheery voice, "what can we do for you ?"

Falteringly, I told my story and passed my Bearing. "Oh", he said, "don't worry about that. Valley and Prestwick have already reported the object. We've got a good long baseline; we've triangulated it; it's about 100 miles West of Ireland, out in the Atlantic, and by the way, we've just plotted your QTE, it gives a nice little tight "cocked-hat. Thanks, Leeming". "Hang on", I said "What does your Met man say it is ?"... "Oh, he says it's just a little (etc)........!".

With one bound, Danny was free ! "Tell S/Ldr (?) it's all right, let the second Phase go, the thing's hundreds of miles away"... What is it ? ..."We don't know". Fortunately we hadn't told the SDO: if he'd turned the Station Commander out of bed on this wild-goose chase, I wouldn't be SATCO's blue-eyed boy in the morning ! :uhoh:

Ten minutes later, F.I.S. rang back: "We thought you'd like to know; we've found out what it is, it's a Noctilucent Cloud". It seems that, in the summer months, a cloud of ice crystals can form at immense heights (I roughly reckoned : 80,000 ft at 450 miles at 2º) ,in defiance of the laws of physics, and remain for hours, illuminated by the setting sun, after dark in the night sky. We passed the news around: our Met was very interested.

The Second Phase passed off without incident: "we counted them out, and we counted them in".

Goodnight, all.

Danny42C.

"... Then felt I like some watcher of the skies. When a new planet swims into his ken..."

Fareastdriver
5th Aug 2014, 05:30
a cloud of ice crystals can form at immense heights (I roughly reckoned : 80,000 ft at 450 miles at 2º

Somebody must have pulled the chain in a Concorde.

Chugalug2
5th Aug 2014, 07:20
Danny, no doubt those on duty at Valley and Prestwick suffered similar feelings of angst as you in making their observations official.

A colleague of mine was flying into a deserted London area down R1(?) from CLN at 00 very early hours. He and his Herc crew saw a bright light that wasn't moving relative to them. It wasn't Venus or any of the usual heavenly bodies. Tentatively he called ATC and asked if they had any traffic in his vicinity. "Negative", came the reply. "Well we have something on a constant bearing showing a bright light and...", at this point the light source took off at an incredible rate, now moving in an accelerating arc across their intended track, "... now it's changed direction and accelerating away out of sight", he finished lamely. London, using that polite note of dubiousness which airtraffickers are no doubt taught in training repeated that he had no known traffic that was aware of or could see. Luckily a USAF pilot bound for Mildenhall confirmed the sighting, so an official report was filed on arrival.

The following morning his crew was told to report to MOD London to be debriefed. Having told all and sundry of their sighting previously, they now had no comment to make whatsoever...

As you say, Danny, strange lights seen can seriously affect one's career!

Danny42C
5th Aug 2014, 18:08
harrym,

As most of my war service was spent in lands where heat was a dirty word, I've never given much thought to heaters in aircraft. And now I come to think of it, I can't remember one in a Spitfire, or a Hurricane or Master, (certainly not in a Vengeance !), nor in a Meteor 7. Vampire ? (probably, as it was pressurised, and the only source of pressurised air had to be a bleed from the compressor, and that would be pretty hot to start with - but can't rememeber any heater controls, only a cool-air intake). After many lifts cadged in Dakotas, it is news to me that there were heaters in the things, but I suppose the DC-3s had to have them to keep the paying pax from freezing, and it was carried over into the C-47 as being too much trouble to take out. Another case of YLSNED ! (you learn something new every day).

My point about Warmtoast's specimen (his #6015) is that it looks a real lash-up. It seems as if they've ignored the proper hole (on the left). This is the one which I mistakenly guessed to lead to the rear cockpit, but as Warmtoast tells me that both front and back fed off the same supply, you would only need one input. The one in use looks to have been gnawed out by rats, and there is a joint at the input point which looks like a bit of old hosepipe secured by two jubilee clips. I'd hesitate to trust my life to that, but suppose I must have done.

Agreed, harrym, I'd be happier with copper pipe - the metal visible does not look in too good condition, and it makes you wonder what it might be like inside the main pipe. And can anyone explain the weird front end of the exhaust pipe ? (Beats me).

As for heaters from engine exhausts, I think the liquid-cooled engines we had would make it impossible, I can't see it working in the lines of stubs on a Merlin, a Griffon, an Allison or a Kestrel. The only way they could keep us warm would be to tap into the coolant, car-fashion, and as the coolant plumbing was always an Achilles Heel in the first place, you wouldn't want any more of it.

Cheers, Danny.

Danny42C
5th Aug 2014, 19:10
Chugalug,

At least your colleague's UFO did something for its money, but our (supposed) one was bone idle, just sitting there and doing nothing to justify its existence. You wouldn't go to bat for a thing like that, now would you !

I wonder what sort of a work-over your two chaps were given at the MOD ? It calls to mind the scene in which poor Galileo, in front of Torquemada at the Inquisition (red-hot tongs at the ready in the background) decides that discretion is the better part of valour and recants, while murmering to himself "Eppur si muove" (and yet it [the Earth] does move).

UFO ? What UFO ? Nobody said anything about any UFOs ! :=

As I had no career to imperil, should've sold my story to the Daily Mail. Might have made a bob or two !

Regards, Danny.

ValMORNA
6th Aug 2014, 20:35
As there have, to date, been no new posts on this thread today I'll add my contingency piece.

Herewith details from the log book of a distant relation of mine, taken from a CD of the content. Unfortunately some of the right-hand pages are curtailed and missing information.

He started his career in mid-Nov 1941 at RAF YEADON flying the DH82 Tiger Moth, starting from basic flight experience and effects of controls to taxying, straight-and-level flying, stalling, spins, take-off into wind, CFI Test and glide approach and landing. This amounted to 4hours 30mins airborne instruction.

He next appeared at the US Army Air Corps detachment Carlstrom Field, Florida in February 1942 on the USAAC Primary Course, flying the PT17.Syllabus was similar to Yeadon's, and he solo'd on 24th March after 10h 13m then continued dual/solo until 21st April.The log indicates training consisted of 'All elementary manoeuvres with accuracy stages, chandelles, lazy 8s, stalls, spins, pylon 8s, loops, half rolls, slow rolls, snap rolls, vertical reverses, Immelmans, 20-hour, 40-hour and Final Check rides.'This amounted to dual 32h29m and solo 27h31m.'

May 1942 he started USAAC Basic Course on the BT13 at USAAC Trng Det., Gunter Field, Alabama.The same basic flying initially, then progressed to Formation (28th) and Cross-Country (23rd) (Gunter -?further details missing).June began with Night Flying, Formation Landing and T/O and ends with X/C (Gunter-Greenville-Ozark-Gunter).

The next stage was from July 11th to Aug 30th on the AT17, AT6 and AT9 at Turner Field, Albany. Day and night X/Cs were GP5-Havana-Jasper,GP5-Cochran-Waycross-GP5, GP5-Blountstown.Interesting entries are NF1 "Blitz", 'Interception' and 'Rendezvous'. Total flying hours after this phase was 224h 10m.

This was the last part of his US training and Wings Parade occurred on September 6th 1942.
The bare bones of this episode may appear uninteresting but could awake memories among some esteemed members.

Next time will begin back in England.

smujsmith
6th Aug 2014, 22:36
Danny et al,

Interesting your discussion of heating in various aircraft. I know from experience (gliding) that altitude equals frostitude. I well remember getting airborne in a glider, sans shorts and tea shirt, attaining 5 thousand feet, and arriving back on the ground with teeth chattering. I believe the dry adiabatic lapse rate is around 3 degrees per thousand feet, so even at relatively low levels, the cold will be felt. I wonder at the heating systems on aircraft like the Lancaster, Mosquito and Halifax, if they had any, and if not, how did the crews overcome the cold- Irvine suit ? Someone must know, and perhaps might give an insight into wartime privations when flying.


Danny, love the UFO story, and my surprise at the eventual explanation. I suspect its basic geometry, but I never considered a high level cloud would reflect light, after dark, on the ground. Awesome, as they say. Except I should understand that having landed gliders on hangar flights, from good viz to very dusk !:eek:

Smudge:ok:

Danny42C
6th Aug 2014, 23:44
ValMORNA,

Your: "The bare bones of this episode may appear uninteresting but could awake memories among some esteemed members". No, they're not uninteresting ! - and they awake memories among this member (esteemed ? - matter of opinion !).

Your man would have been in (Arnold) Class 42I, I reckon. They started with 519 and graduated 507 (2.4% scrubbed, killed, whatever *). The average losses for Courses 42A-42D was 40%, for 42E-43B (the end), 1.6%. So what happened about November '41 (when 42D started) - Pearl Harbor ?; Grading Schools introduced in UK ?

* "Losses" would include (mainly) "Washouts" for all reasons, plus a few (sadly) killed. Whether the 577 (total all Courses) "Creamed Off" Instructors (at the end) were included (as we didn't get them back - at least not until much later - in UK, I do not know). I did Carlstrom-Gunter like your relation, but then he went to Albany (Georgia), for the AT-9 (twins), I stayed on singles and got the AT-6A (Harvard) at Craig Field (Selma, Ala.).

All the USAAC Exercises he listed were given to me to do. I finished with 207.40 hrs and silver US wings, then the RAF (back in Canada gave me "drab silk" ones and a Sgts' stripes). Back in UK they gave me the Master and Spitfire (and a few hrs Hurricane).

Glad his story doesn't end there - let's have some more, please.

Cheers, Danny.

camlobe
7th Aug 2014, 07:45
Danny et al,

The heater on the Harvard is actually a highly technical device that has a secondary effect. The original short exhaust outlet pipe is replaced by a much longer unit. This extended pipe is then shrouded by a jacket made of stainless steel or a similar heat resistant metal. The front of the shroud has a small diameter ram inlet pipe, and the outlet(s) are fed into the cabin. Very simple and generally very effective. The secondary effect? Due to the increased length of the exhaust pipe, the noise signature is considerably reduced and the sound is of a deeper note.

The Dakota / DC3 / C47 utilises the same principle on each exhaust. The heated air is then routed through the top of each undercarriage bay and under the floor of the fuselage. The choice of hot air routing is controlled by half a dozen plunger controls behind the co-pilots seat. Oh, and most of the ducting is (was) wrapped in asbestos in order to prevent heat damage to surrounding structure.
Post-war light civil single-engined aircraft still employ the same system, which is known as heat-exchanger cabin heating. The Piper PA22 of the early 1950's even had the option of separately controllable rear cabin heating. Sheer luxury.

The air-cooled Volkswagen range of vehicles including the Beetle, and also the Citroen 2 CV employ the same technology. I suspect the air-cooled Porsche range of high performance cars were similarly equipped.

Carbon monoxide poisoning is a very real threat, and in the civil world in the UK, there is a mandated Annual inspection requirement to pressure test the exhaust mufflers, hopefully identifying any suspect sources of the silent killer. Many aircraft owners and operators fit CO detectors similar to those used in caravans etc.

Civil twin-engined aircraft generally don't use the engine exhaust method. Instead, it has been decided and agreed by various manufacturers that far more entertainment can be gained by setting fire to the aircraft fuel supply while flying. Seriously, most of this type of aircraft employ heaters that burn fuel from the aircraft supply, and have shrouded heat-exchangers that work in the same way as mentioned above. The Shackleton amongst others also employed the on-board fire method, the Dragonair heater units being capable of producing 100000 BTU per hour each. And just to make sure, the MR2 had four installed. The later AEW II had the forward number one heater removed due to the installation of the AN/APS 20 radar under the nose.

Camlobe

ValMORNA
7th Aug 2014, 19:25
Near miss, Danny. It was 42H.


Still working on the next bit.

Chugalug2
7th Aug 2014, 20:52
The Hastings heating system was very much along the lines described by camlobe for aircraft of that vintage. Pilots Notes state that;-

"Engine exhaust heat exchangers, two on each engine, supply warm air for aircraft heating, drawing air from the intakes inboard of each engine. Additional cold air, which mixes with the hot air from the heat exchangers, is supplied from the intakes on each inboard engine. The proportion of hot and cold air is adjusted by mixer valves. The air is then circulated, by electrically driven fans, through ducts to the cockpit and cabin."

Those were the days! No doubt today such a system would be digitally controlled and the description would fill a volume (As that pertaining to my car radio does!).

Danny42C
7th Aug 2014, 21:39
Fareastdriver,

(Your #6033) Reminds me, that when "Challenger" exploded in '86, there was a huge cloud of ice crystals at some 50,000 ft which persisted for several minutes.

As for the "Concorde" whimsy, I seem to remember that, a long time ago, there was an airliner coming in to LHR (?) It had been high, the structure was very cold. The effluent from galley and toilets had frozen to the bottom of the fuselage - until it came to the warm air below !

Then an unpleasant "ice lolly", weighing about a half-cwt, became detached, went through a roof somewhere in W.London, and (I think) came to rest on a bad (luckily unoccupied). A veil must be drawn over the rest of the story !

Danny.

Danny42C
7th Aug 2014, 23:37
Smujsmith,

(Ref your #6038)

I don't think much attention was paid to the comfort of Halifax/Lancaster crews. I remember the flying kit they issued to me at ITW in '41, which consisted of an inner brown rayon (?) kapok-filled "Growbag", an outer canvas "Sidcot" suit, and three pairs of gloves (silk inner, then wool, then leather gauntlets on top). They gave me a pair of Moreland "Glastonbury" suede flying boots, and (I think) string vests and "long-johns". No sign of an "Irvin" jacket ! (I never wore any of it, except the boots).

I suppose the idea was that, swathed in that lot (on top of your battledress), you'd be able to generate your own internal heat, so they didn't need to bother about any heating in the aircraft. :(

Danny.

ValMORNA
8th Aug 2014, 17:26
I'm pretty sure that I once heard that the heating was poor except for the W/Ops position, where he overheated. There again, it may be a product of my imagination; put it down to the effects of increasing age.

Danny42C
8th Aug 2014, 18:42
Chugalug,

Sounds as if your (Hastings) Central Heating system would keep your "dicky" busy for the greater part of his time - indeed it's a wonder they didn't introduce a new specialty of aircrew ("Environment Master" ? - single wing with "H&C" in mixed red 'n blue wreath).

Then your faithful slave would be left free for more important tasks - like organising the Captain's coffee and bikkies, for example ! :ok:

Cheers, Danny.

Taphappy
8th Aug 2014, 20:15
Val Morna
Yes you are correct. The W/ops position suffered from overheating and same applied to the Wimpey.

Danny42C
8th Aug 2014, 22:03
camlobe,

This shows the evergreen value of PPRuNe ! Whatever subject is broached, sooner or later up comes a real expert to tell us everything we need to know about it: you couldn't have a clearer demonstration of that than your Post #6040 !

(Your):
"The original short exhaust outlet pipe is replaced by a much longer unit. This extended pipe is then shrouded by a jacket made of stainless steel or a similar heat resistant metal."

This is exactly what I remember on my AT-6s at Craig Field. But the thing we've been discussing with Warmtoast et al seems to show a rig where the hot-air pipe runs inside the exhaust pipe - exactly the opposite idea, and I wondered how enough air got into the front of the (narrow bore) pipe to make much of a difference at the cockpit end. Although the exhaust shown had been ripped apart by the partly-severed engine, the front bit seems to have two bits of broken-off small bore pipe sticking in opposite directions - what part would they play ?

"Due to the increased length of the exhaust pipe, the noise signature is considerably reduced and the sound is of a deeper note."

A contributor to "Tee Emm" (IIRC), once spoke of the "Sonor Harvard-orum and Eu-ti-orum" (from S. Rhodesia, I think).

"Seriously, most of this type of aircraft employ heaters that burn fuel from the aircraft supply,......"

Serious ? - it's terrifying ! You're telling me that they actually engineered fires on board to keep themselves warm! So my choices appear to have been (1) Freeze (2) perish by CO poisoning, or (3) burn to death ! (Why didn't the Recruiting Officer tell me all this before he let me sign up ? - I'd have changed to something safer, like bomb disposal). (Nervous Pax, can I please join your Club ?)

Recalls an apocryphal tale once heard (or read about): Load of pilgrims en route to Mecca. Smoke creeps into Flight Deck. F/O goes aft to investigate. Finds his pax have built a fire in the middle of the centre aisle and are busy cooking evening rice ! :eek: (Couldn't be true, surely ?)

Joking apart, thanks for a most instructive Post on a subject most of us take for granted.

Cheers, Danny.

smujsmith
8th Aug 2014, 22:25
Danny,

Your Mecca pilgrim story brings to mind a similar story of a C130 taking Ghurkhas home to the Far East. As I heard it, the Captain agreed to allow smoking when the Loadmaster reported that the troops were cooking their curry lunches on Hexi block stoves, in the freight bay:eek:

Smudge:ok:

Warmtoast
8th Aug 2014, 22:55
Danny

But the thing we've been discussing with Warmtoast et al seems to show a rig where the hot-air pipe runs inside the exhaust pipe

Another photo (and enlargement). One single tube through the middle of the exhaust fed by ram air, sufficient at 100+ Kts I'd have thought to provide a suitable draft of warm air into the cockpit.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/HarvardFX435Adjusted_zps9b3545b7.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/HarvardFX435AdjustedampCropped_zpsd551f9ad.jpg

Warmtoast
8th Aug 2014, 23:07
Danny

Sounds as if your (Hastings) Central Heating system would keep your "dicky" busy for the greater part of his time - indeed it's a wonder they didn't introduce a new specialty of aircrew ("Environment Master" ? - single wing with "H&C" in mixed red 'n blue wreath).

Then your faithful slave would be left free for more important tasks - like organising the Captain's coffee and bikkies, for example ! :ok:


Horses for Courses - In the early days of Hastings ops AQM's (Air Quarter Masters - later ALM's Air Load Masters) made the tea to keep the captain and the rest of the crew happy and PAX as well. ISTR the AQM's station on the Hastings was a VERY small cabin on the port side behind the captains or W/Ops seat - CHUGALUG will confirm this I think.

ancientaviator62
9th Aug 2014, 07:12
Warmtoast,
you are correct the AQM galley was just aft of the Signaller's radio stack on the Hastings. When I visited TG 528 when she was at the now defunct Syfame Museum at Staverton a young chap showed me around. When we got to the galley I put my hand down the soundproofing and produced a stick of paper cups and a pad of trimsheets . He was dumfounded until I explained that was the normal stowage for these items !

Chugalug2
9th Aug 2014, 18:05
Danny:-
Sounds as if your (Hastings) Central Heating system would keep your "dicky" busy for the greater part of his time - indeed it's a wonder they didn't introduce a new specialty of aircrew ("Environment Master" ? - single wing with "H&C" in mixed red 'n blue wreath.
Then your faithful slave would be left free for more important tasks - like organising the Captain's coffee and bikkies, for example ! :ok:
Danny, we did indeed have such a specialty crew-member as you describe, the Flight Engineer. Busy monitoring his engines, propellers, and the various aircraft systems, especially the fuel system and its required selection of tanks, booster pumps, fuel valves etc, he was ever at hand to tweek the flight deck and cabin temperatures to 'just right'. This he did by motoring the port and starboard mixer valves via a pair of HOT AIR and COLD AIR push buttons (one of each for the port and starboard systems) and observing the movement of the valves on two indicators above the push buttons.

The dicky, or co-pilot, was not qualified for such vital duties nor even that of crew sustenance . There was yet another specialist for that important work, the AQM (later ALM) who had a galley behind the signaller (as Warmtoast and ancientaviator correctly state).

The co-pilot's job was to:-
Pull up the gear, drop it, and standby to featherand we know a song about that as well, don't we boys and girls?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3aWC32gjO4

MPN11
9th Aug 2014, 18:16
The dicky, or co-pilot, was not qualified for such vital duties nor even that of crew sustenance . There was yet another specialist for that important work, the AQM (later ALM) who had a galley behind the signaller (as Warmtoast and ancientaviator correctly state).
Unless, of course, you were the OH's father, who was a Nav on 201 Sunderlands in WW2 ... he managed (briefly) to escape from a Reserved Occupation, and was (by family anecdote) a very good Commissioned Chef ;)

Sadly, from his POV, he was dragged back to his civilian profession as a Civil Engineer to assist with reconstruction efforts. Although he was invited to the 'unveiliing' of NS-Z at Hendon as a former crew member/chef :)

Danny42C
10th Aug 2014, 01:05
camlobe and Warmtoast,

Warmtoast, I think that all of your photographs would almost certainly be of Harvards, and there is a tendency to think that the Harvard was just a yellow AT6A with roundels, but that is not the case. They were slightly different aircraft.

The main difference was that the AT6A was armed (a 0.300 Browning mounted with cocking handle on top right of front cockpit panel, firing through the prop, whereas all the Harvards I later flew were not.

And it may well be that it was also fitted with a different heater (or no heater) along the lines described by camlobe (external sleeve of warmed air), and which I seem to remember, rather than the internal pipe design so clearly shown on the photos.

Wiki gives me:

"Canada's Noorduyn Aviation built an R-1340-AN-1-powered version of the AT-6A, which was supplied to the USAAF as the AT-16 (1,500 aircraft) and the RAF/RCAF as the Harvard IIB (2,485 aircraft").

Two points spring out: the USAAF recognised it as different, and called it an AT-16 (would they have bought them from Canada for supply only to the BFTS schools, whereas their own Advanced Schools all used their AT-6A ?).
The 2500 Harvard IIBs would have equipped all the Empire Flying Schools, and would be, post-war, spread all over the RAF as runabouts.

That about sums up the Harvard Heater story. Some poor Harvards had None:

I give you:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/North_American_T-6G_Texan_5.JPG/220px-North_American_T-6G_Texan_5.JPG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:North_American_T-6G_Texan_5.JPG)
http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.24wmf15/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:North_American_T-6G_Texan_5.JPG)
Belgian Air Force T-6G

Cheers, Danny.

Danny42C
10th Aug 2014, 01:32
Warmtoast, ancientaviator, Chugalug, MPN11,

Thanks to you all ! I get the picture ! Running a one-man-band, I had to be all your willing helpers rolled into one - and still no coffee. Ah, well. :(

All right for some ! Cheers, Danny.

Warmtoast
10th Aug 2014, 11:55
Danny

The Harvards used by you in WW2 weren't the only Harvards to be fitted with machine guns.

As the Rhodesian Air Training Group was run down before being closed in late 1953 Harvard IIBs from Thornhill were fitted with bomb racks and a machine gun before being despatched to Kenya to be used in the fight against the Mau Mau.

From Flight Global 17th July 1953

In ten weeks up to July 9th, Harvards operating against the Mau Mau in Kenya, flew 183 sorties
against 85 targets, dropping 1,096 bombs and firing 96,000 rounds of ammunition.
Interrogation of prisoners, it was stated, suggested that the measures had proved effective, particularly on the
morale of gangs in the prohibited areas.

According to Flight Global dated 18th September 1953

THE R.A.F. contingent from Rhodesia attached to the security forces combating the Mau Mau in Kenya are operating from an improvised air-strip 8,000 ft up in the Kenya mountains, at Mercians Farm.
Six Harvards, each fitted with a machine gun and racks for eight 20 lb. bombs, are piloted by officers from the Rhodesian air training schools under the command of W/C. R. Johnstone, D.S.O., D.F.C.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/HarvardIIBs-FFlightline-up.jpg

Harvard IIBs of 'F' Flight at Thornhill of the type fitted with bomb racks and a machine gun for use against the Mau Mau.

However, another more recent research paper published in the RUSI Journal says the ex RATG Harvards only used bombs against the Mau and Machine guns were NOT used - most confusing! See here:

https://www.rusi.org/downloads/assets/RUSI_Journal_Feb_2011_Chappell.pdf

Danny42C
10th Aug 2014, 15:18
Warmtoast,

The plot thickens ! Thanks for the photos, but one small cavil: why not buy half a dozen AT-6s from the US, rather than take on the considerable engineering job of retrofitting a gun into a Harvard, whose (Canadian) designers had never contemplated such a thing ?

(Possible answer: with their deep-rooted anti-colonialism stance, the US would not release them for that purpose).

The 20lb bombs would be no trouble. The 4x11½lb practice bomb rack should take one or two of them with a bit of tinkering. (Was there a multiple 20lb rack on inventory - thinks Hawker Harts, etc, on the old NW Frontier).
I cannot help thinking that such a weapon might be more use against Isis in Irak (if you could base it out there) than (say) a F-18 with one 2000lb.

I'm grateful for the link - but all I could tease out of it was "..... Therefore, only the Harvard’s 20 lb bombs were authorised and its machine gun was not...." 41. So there must have been a machine gun (hand-held Bren or Sten poked out from back seat ?) Is there an Armourer in the house ?

Danny.

Warmtoast
10th Aug 2014, 16:39
Danny

A little research leads me to the following.

Photo of a Harvard with bomb racks in an article here:
RAF in Africa :Bob Aitken (http://www.ianmeredith.com/page_africa/raf_rhodesia_bobaitken.htm)
Article also states (Guns (or Gun) was carried close to the wing root in the starboard wing in training roll for target practice on the ranges).

Also mentioned in piece from book "Britain's Small Wars"
1340 Flight was commanded by Sqn Ldr CG StD Jeffries, DFC, operated out of Nanyuki Airstrip 1953-54 (and possibly later). Equipped with Harvards modified to carry 4 x 19lb bombs and with one wing-mounted .303 machine gun. The flight had 8 - 10 of these aircraft which had been used for second-stage flying training in Rhodesia, and initially the pilots were made up from the flying instructors.

The flight operated in a local variation of 'close/tactical support' carrying out recces and ground attack missions against Mau Mau gangs in the 'Prohibited areas', mainly the Aberdare and Mount Kenya forests. Such attacks were usually made on information from ground forces or the Kenya Police Air Wing, a section of which also operated out of Nanyuki.

..and finally a line drawing of an AT-6C with machine gun mounted behind the rear cockpit. Here:
http://www.skytamer.com/NAA/AT-6C(side).jpg

Enough for today as my other half says I should be outside picking beans, which I'm off to do!

roadsman
10th Aug 2014, 19:49
My Dad is Master Navigator John Lennard. Back in July I posted an item on my father’s service history including his navigator training between 1946 and 1948. Coodashooda asked if Dad could provide more information about his flying training.

During the war he was a teenager living in the Suffolk coastal village of Hollesley (not far from RAF Bawdsey and RAF Woodbridge). He was a member of the local ATC Squadron.On a regular basis he cycled the 13 miles over to RAF Martlesham Heath and scrounged flights in the Ansons based at the airfield. It was during these flights he noticed that the Navigators appeared to be busy all the time and he decided that is what he wanted to become when he joined the RAF.

In early 1946, aged 17, he attended the aircrew selection centre at RAF Hornchurch for two days of tests. Out of approximately 150 applicants, he and three others were the only ones to be selected for Pilot, Navigator and Bomb aimer training. He selected Navigator as his first choice. He accepted the King’s shilling and joined the RAF Volunteer Reserve. As an ATC Cadet he was able to wear a white flash in his forage cap indicating he had been seleted for aircrew training. In June 1946 he was called up for the “duration of the present emergency”. He was kitted out at RAF Padgate and did his square bashing at RAF Wilmslow.He was then posted to RAF Ibsley and RAF Sopley, prior to commencing his flying training. During his time at Sopley he was instructed on the use of Radar which was to prove useful later.

In April 1947, he was posted to No 1 Air Navigation School RAF Topcliffe to join the No 1 All Through Course, the first post war Navigators course to be held, at the time Navigators were still being trained using the one year wartime syllabus.The new course were to be nearly two years long, the training at Topcliffewas to be 18 months in length, 6 months ground school, 6 monthsbasic flying in Ansons followed by 6 months flying Wellingtons. The average length of a training flight in an Anson was about three hours with the maximum time being about 4 hours.The average length of a Wellington Flight was about 4 hours with the longest flight being over 6 hours.The flying phase totalled about 250 hours. The aircraft used were not training marks of the aircraft or even converted but war weary early marks. The Anson’s turret had been removed but the void was just covered in canvas.During take-off and landing in the Wellingtons the crew had to assume crash positions. My father’s position was braced behind the main spar. Nearly all the training flights were around the north and midlands of England although one trip was to Northern Ireland but without landing. His pay for an Aircrew cadet was 4 shillings a day rising to 6 shillings when he started flying. After successfully completing the course he was awarded his navigator brevet and given the rank of Nav IV. His pay rose to 10/6 a day.

In September 1948 he was posted to RAF Swinderby for the advanced Nav course, still on Wellingtons. This is where all the aircrew trades were to come together and form crews but the pilots and signallers all through courses had been postponed and had been replaced by wartime trainees. His pilot at Swinderby was a Polish Flight Sergeant called Jurczyczysn. They did a ground loop on their first take off from Swinderby. In January 1949 he was posted to the Coastal Command OCU at RAF Kinloss for a course on Lancaster ASR 3s. In April 1949 he was promoted in Nav 111.

On September 1st 1950 the aircrew ranks were abandoned and he was promoted to Sgt on 22/6 a day. Dad continued flying until 1970 and retired from the RAF in 1983.

Danny42C
11th Aug 2014, 00:04
Warmtoast,

Thanks for the Link - the line drawing takes my breath away ! A Harvard with a fuselage front gun in a barbette, another in-wing(s), and another (Browning ?) sticking out at the back, after the back half of the "glasshouse" had been removed (any provision of a means to stop you blowing your own tail off ?).

Did this thing really exist ? Or was it the product of some fevered imagination ? Allowing 232lb for each of three forward guns + 400 rounds ammo each (and could the two wing guns be 0.50s - looks like it on the drawing - in which case at least 100lb (?) per gun more, plus 152lb for the rear one; in the worst scenario your Harvard would be lifting 1048lb extra plus whatever bombs they hung on it. Any effect on performance ? :uhoh:

(Weight figures for [same] guns from "Vengeance" [Peter C. Smith]).

Harvard normal load: 1458lb ("The Canadian Museum of Flight"), of which 100lb would be fuel [say 140 galls at 5 ampg = 700 miles, which is about right], leaves 1358lb, say 600lb for crew, so "pay"load is 758lb.

Article also states: [I](Guns (or Gun) was carried close to the wing root in the starboard wing in training roll for target practice on the ranges).
How was it fired ? (electrically, I suppose, there being no compressed air in a Harvard). Any way of cocking it ?

Long Arm of Coincidence: I commanded 1340 Flight, RAF, from Mar'45 to Mar'46 (Any relation to the 1340 Flight mentioned ?)

Wonders never cease !

Cheers, Danny.

ancientaviator62
11th Aug 2014, 09:39
Danny,
even as I was reading the latest posts ref the Harvard one flew over the house ! No I am not hallucinating it has to be the one that is kept at Shoreham.
Wonderful sound too.

Warmtoast
11th Aug 2014, 10:21
Danny

Long Arm of Coincidence: I commanded 1340 Flight, RAF, from Mar'45 to Mar'46 (Any relation to the 1340 Flight mentioned ?)

I think they're one and the same - issued by the RAF when they need to identify a "Flight" for a relatively short time rather issuing a full squadron number.

The full title of the flight in Kenya in the 1950's was "No. 1340 (Harvard) Flight."

A more in-depth article about the activities of the flight in Kenya can be found here:
1954 | 3060 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1954/1954%20-%203060.html)

Taphappy
11th Aug 2014, 16:18
roadsman.
Very interesting tale of postwar navigator training.
I was a Staff W/op at Topcliffe from Sept 46 to February 48 and no doubt flew with your dad at some time.
Whilst agreeing that the Wimpeys were shall we say a bit on the tired side, I dont recall having to take up crash positions on take off and landing.

Danny42C
11th Aug 2014, 19:02
roadsman,

First, my delayed "Welcome aboard !" - to this, the finest Thread in "Military Aviation" - to you and your Dad. Tell him, he's among friends here.

It is particularly interesting to get 'gen' from that strange time immediately after '46 (nb "duration of hostilities " has become "duration of the present emergency" (what emergency , for Pete's sake ?) before the (much smaller, leaner, fitter ?) RAF got properly back on its feet again.

".....RAF Martlesham Heath and scrounged flights in the Ansons based at the airfield. It was during these flights he noticed that the Navigators appeared to be busy all the time and he decided that is what he wanted to become when he joined the RAF....". (Now if he'd said "Pilot" or "Bomb Aimer", that would be more like it ! - ah, the zeal of youth). I went to Martlesham with my R.(Aux).A.F. unit on Summer Camp in'52. Nice place.

"He selected Navigator as his first choice. He accepted the King’s shilling and joined the RAF Volunteer Reserve" Why didn't they put him straight into the RAF ? Was he treated as if he was just on National Service ? I thought the VR ended with the War, and wasn't reconstituted until'48 - it's all very puzzling.

".....at the time Navigators were still being trained using the one year wartime syllabus.The new course were to be nearly two years long....." I thought they only did 6 months in war - but there are many people here who can (and will, no doubt, !) prove me wrong.

"..... After successfully completing the course he was awarded his navigator brevet and given the rank of Nav IV....." The old "Hennessy Four Star" system ! - a bad idea from the start, to distinguish "proper" Sergeants from these "Johnnie-come-lately" aircrew types. As I recall, 'IV' was 'u/t"; 'III' equated to Sgt; 'II' F/Sgt; and 'I' W.O. - then they changed their minds and called all the 'I's "Master" (Pilot, Nav, Bomb Aimer........etc). Then they scrapped the lot and went back to good old Sgt and F/Sgt - but hung on to the 'Masters',* and we had these for a long time afterwards. Does it all make sense to you ? No, not to me either !

".....His pilot at Swinderby was a Polish Flight Sergeant called Jurczyczysn ....." All right, I know when I'm beaten ! I'll go quietly ! You pronounce it !

"Dad continued flying until 1970 and retired from the RAF in 1983.... " You can't, you just can't , leave us like that ! Much more please, roadsman ! - and soon.

Many thanks and regards to you both, Danny.

Edit:
Note * :
Strange: it almost looks as if they were unwilling to admit their mistake and therefore retained one trace of it to justify the change. A very similar thing was done in the case of the gold-winged monstrosity which was introduced around '50 to replace the wartine pattern No.1 S.D. jacket.

When commonsense at last returned, and they threw the thing out of the window, the wartime jacket came back - but still minus the fourth button ! (to safe face ?)

D.

Pom Pax
12th Aug 2014, 17:58
This morning I read the obituary of Lieutenant Gordon 'Curly' Pickard (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/11026539/Lieutenant-Gordon-Curly-Pickard-obituary.html)
The paragraph He was not called up until New Year’s Day 1941, when he became a naval airman 2nd Class at HSM St Vincent in Gosport. After training in Trinidad he returned to London to attend the two-week “knife-and-fork course” for potential officers at Greenwich. struck me as relevant to this thread.
I wonder what other far flung corners of Empire trained aircrew that have not been covered in this thread. I realise this was FAA training but did the R.A.F. offer a “knife-and-fork course”?
As an aside the R.A.A.F. had a training school here in Kalgoorlie and one of its hangars remains in use to this day by the Royal Flying Doctor Service. Also at Merredin (half way to Perth) was another school where now China Southern conduct all of their ab-initio training.

roadsman
12th Aug 2014, 18:48
Danny42C,


Thank you for your kind welcoming comments.


Flight Sergeant Jurczyczysn was called Jay by everybody who knew him!


Dad went on to fly in Shackleton mark 1,2 & 3s during the 1950s. Twin Pins in Aden on 78 Squadron. Beverleys at Abingdon, Thorney island and Seletar. and Varsitys at Topcliffe.

MPN11
12th Aug 2014, 18:55
I realise this was FAA training but did the R.A.F. offer a “knife-and-fork course”?

A colleague of the OH used to do an outstanding K&F lecture at Cranwell in the 80's, but that lies outwith our Thread boundaries, I regret.

Wander00
12th Aug 2014, 19:58
MPN11 - not a PI flt lt on B Sqn was it? Used to shoot his cuffs and always wore a SD hat with combats.......................

Warmtoast
12th Aug 2014, 21:35
Roadsman

Re you father flying Beverleys at Abingdon. I was stationed at Abingdon in 1959 and took the two photos below there. May bring back memories to your Dad.

Was he there when Brigitte Bardot made her visit in summer of 1959?

The Officers Mess refused her entry for a drink (probably because they considered her improperly dressed), whereupon the Sgts mess stepped in and she had a drink with them.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Abingdon/Abingdon-BeverlyLanding_1280x853-1.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Abingdon/Abingdon-BeverlyTake-off_1200x800-1.jpg

MPN11
13th Aug 2014, 08:38
@ Wander00 ... no, it was a Regt officer on "Happy H" :)


I used to wear an SD hat with combats for shooting at Bisley (to keep sun/rain out of my eyes) until a VVSO passed the message that I was to desist. Well, it was the one I wore on my Graduation, so by the early 90s it was very dilapidated!

roadsman
13th Aug 2014, 18:36
Warmtoast,

Dad was on 47 Squadron between 1961 & 1963. My parents will be attending the Beverley association reunion near Warwick in October.

Danny42C
13th Aug 2014, 22:26
I think it was almost at the end of my time in the RAF. One summer Leeming's main (16/34) was put u/s for some reason, repainting, resurfacing, whatever. Training (including night sessions) continued as normal. The JPs had been moved over to Dishforth, and the instructors and studes bussed out every day.

Dishforth had always been our RLG.,it had a 6,000ft (15/33) runway and a "Gaydon" pattern Tower at the N.end. PAR/AR-1 stayed at Leeming, of course, I think there was still a CA/DF at Dishforth, but can't be sure; but in any case it could only have been used for odd QDMs and QTEs, for all Controlled Descents, etc. were still done at Leeming, our JPs then flying VMC to Dishforth (only 10 miles south straight down the A1). Again, exmudmover, where are you ? (to spot errors and fill in the gaps).

All in all, ATC life was fairly pleasant at Dishforth, and I think little else but Local Control plus the odd QDM was needed, and one Controller could easily handle that in the top Tower with the slave CA/DF console there. A dual JP took off on 15 one morning. "Do you know ?", called the instructor in a pained voice: "that there's a chap with a van parked on the road just the other side of the hedge ? He's turned loose a whole crowd of pigeons, I've only just managed to miss them !" And indeed the birds were wheeling round over the field, racing pigeons, I suppose, picking up their bearings before setting Course for home. "Yes, I can see it, sir", confirmed the Runway Controller (up at my end), "It's quite a big van, right in line with the runway".

Clearly this was Something Up to Which we Could Not Put. I stopped take offs, broadcast a warning on Approach to "Leeming Combine" (luckily we'd nothing in circuit), and sent a lad with the L/Rover down to bid the unwelcome visitor cease, desist and begone. He drove down to a spot on our side of the hedge, and called our message over to the offender, who was preparing to release the next batch (apparently this has to be done at precisely timed and duly recorded intervals).

But perhaps our Assistant had delivered this demand in a little too peremptory a fashion, as it fell on stony ground. Instead, the pigeon man angrily declared that he had every :mad: right to release his pigeons there; he was on a public :mad: road after all; he was a Yorkshire man on Yorkshire soil, and no little :mad: :mad: was going to tell him what to do. As for its aircraft, the RAF should mind its own :mad: business. So saying, he turned loose the next batch, and everything was a mass of whirring wings and feathers for a few moments

Seeing that the man was large and bellicose, that only the hedge stood between them , and that didn't look exactly stock-proof, our chap hurriedly changed tack and tried sweet reason, pointing out that, not only would our aircraft be inconvenienced if they ingested one, but that one or more prized (and very valuable) racing birds (in his charge) would come out the back end well minced and fit only for pigeon-burgers.

That produced the desired result; our pigeon fancier up-staked and moved a mile or so up the road. We'd had the binoculars on this little drama, saw the van move off, and Dishforth opened again for business.

On this occasion, as sometimes happened, I'd been joined in the Tower by our junior M.O. (I think Leeming must have had two at the time), for a cup of tea and a chat. He was down there obviously because Leeming itself was hors-de-combat for the duration of the runway work; so any blood spilt would be at Dishforth, and his services more likely to be needed there.

As lunchtime approached, things had become very quiet. I put a monitor on frequency, took my headset off (to natter more easily) and put it down on the desk. Should an aircraft call, I'd pick up the (boom) mic and reply. Someone called for joining. I did so and gave him the spiel. "Say again !" he came back, I did so, "Can't hear you - you're very faint !", I tried again, louder, "No good - your mic's u/s !"

Then my Assistant touched my elbow gently, and pointed to - the bowl of my pipe, which I'd picked out of an ashtray and had been addressing all the time ! This was my first "Senior Moment", as I recall. All around were greatly amused - but I saw the M.O. looking at me with clinical concern !

Goodnight, all.

Danny42C.

Mind what you're doing !

ElectroVlasic
13th Aug 2014, 23:32
A quick note of thanks and encouragement: I've just caught up to the end of this thread, having started reading page 1 months ago with Cliff and then Reg and now Danny and of course the many others who contributions have been indeed making this the best thread on this site, as well as the best thread on any of the other forums that I partake of. Keep up the excellent work!

Chugalug2
14th Aug 2014, 08:32
Danny, your pigeon fancier's tale reminds me of one I once heard. One of the hire car company drivers that drove Dan-Air crews to/from outstation crew changes was once a police officer. One of his colleagues had been in the pigeon owning fraternity, but was also confined to the station doing clerical work having crossed his superior. It happened that a party of prisoners, having had their fates pronounced by the local beak, were to be returned to prison. No-one else was available to drive them so he was given the task. He was to go straight there and straight back, was that clearly understood? "Yes, Sir", though thinking that now at last there was a chance to release his birds that day, at the time and place decreed.

So it was, with prisoners in the back of a Black Maria he called at his home and put a basket full of his feathered friends in with them. He wasn't going to lock them in, and when he told them, they were to open the rear door, release the birds, and then close the door again. He would be watching closely and woe betide them if they deviated an iota from his instructions. Did they understand? "Yes, Officer!".

All went splendidly according to plan. The pigeons were released at exactly the right time and location, and those retained at Her Majesty's pleasure duly delivered to their Pied a Terre. He returned for yet more mind numbingly clerical duties to the nick, though in quiet satisfaction of a job well done. Not much later however he was called to the office of his superior, who had received a report from a member of the public that had been following a Police van. The rear door had briefly opened and a flock of pigeons had emerged and flown off. Did he know anything about it, being a known fancier and all....? He emerged a little later knowing that the end of his paper pushing days were now but a distant pinprick of light at the end of a very dark tunnel indeed. :=

FantomZorbin
14th Aug 2014, 08:52
Ah, Danny42c, you've just reminded me of an incident at Finningley in the days of the magnificent Tin Triangle.

Perusing the estate from top-tower the SATCO (S/L Harry Dyer) espied a gentleman + 2 Whippets walking in a meaningful way towards the main runway from the narrow road behind the tower.
With the SATCO's encouraging words "to get that :mad: off my airfield", P/O FZ set off in 'Rover' to shift the offending article. As I approached the man another emerged from the boundary hedge, he was huge and carrying some sort of stick ... "mm, tricky" thinks I - what to do?

At this very moment a policeman complete with bike and pointy hat appeared out of nowhere; he had a face as round and as red as an apple with a superstructure to match and a VERY big grin! "May I be of assistance Sir?" said he (you can tell it was a long while ago, can't you!!), "be my guest" says the very relieved P/O.

"Nah then ..." says the erstwhile Constable in a manner that was heavy with doom as he produced his notebook and licked the end of his pencil. I didn't catch the remainder of the conversation (one sided) as the two men, not to forget the Whippets, were very firmly escorted back through the hedge.

Back in ATC I received a 'tick VG' from the boss but I was forced to come clean and report that I had had a little help from CIVPOL.

BTW, I should mention that the fine Constable saluted me on arriving and again as I left (told you it was a long time ago!) ... the first time this P/O had been saluted without a sardonic smile!

Danny42C
14th Aug 2014, 17:26
ElectroVlasic,

Many thanks for the very kind words said about this Thread, which I (and many others) consider to be the "pick of the bunch" - and this is for one reason, and one reason alone.

So let us hear it for our very kind, wise and forebearing Moderators, who let us stray away, to an outrageous extent, from Thread, always providing that we come back; and that (I assume) there is at least one active contributor who still qualifies under the original Title as defined by "cliffnemo" (RIP) six years ago.

And so created this cosy "Crewroom in Cyberspace", to which all are welcome who have a relevant tale to tell or comment to make - save always that no harsh word be said.

And let's make the most of it while we still last ! :ok:

Regards, Danny42C.

Danny42C
14th Aug 2014, 20:28
Chugalug,

"Be sure your Sins will Find you Out" seems to have applied in this case ! I suppose there was an equivalent to our "Section 40" in the Police Code under which they could get him. But what could be worse than scribbling in an office all day, anyway ?

He should have said that the witness was having a hallucination !.....D.


Fantom Zorbin,

Always glad to welcome a fellow visitor from our much maligned Branch of Air Traffic Confusion. But it must have been many, many years ago - who ever heard of a policeman appearing when he was wanted ? And the Good Old days in which deference was not a dirty word: respect was paid when respect was due. And a Pilot Officer was still somebody. (Today, I suppose most folk would take you for some weird kind of Traffic Warden, if you appeared in uniform).

Ah, those first few days when your cap was bandbox fresh ! I well remember strolling down Chowringhee, returning a salute every two paces until my arm was tired. I would never have imagined that "dumb insolence" could be conveyed in so many different ways.

Whippets are a new one on me. I have in my time been troubled by S**tehawks, goats, rats, an elephant, crows and a snoozing hare on a runway - but never a whippet (yet).....D.

Cheers, both. Danny.

taxydual
15th Aug 2014, 07:10
Danny

Your mention of Dishforth earlier, together with your experiences of S**tehawks, goats, rats etc

What about the Dishforth Swan? Does the following ring bells? It must have happened in your time in the Vale of York.

RAF Dishforth in the '70's. RLG for 3FTS Leeming. This particular day the weather was dog. Heavy rain, low cloudbase, the works.
Four AirTraffickers sat in Local playing uckers waiting for the stack word from Leeming. "Hey, look at that" pipes up one of the 4.

There, on finals to a very wet runway 16, was a swan. The swan drops it's undercarriage over the threshold and alights on what it thinks is a lovely stretch of river/canal/lake etc.

In a blur of white and a cloud of feathers the swan becomes worse off and ends in a crumpled heap on the runway. Apparently Cat 5.

Crash One is despatched to recover the 'remains'.

The Crash Crew collect the swan and take it back to the Crash Bay. A couple of minutes later, they report via the Hadley Box, that the swan is only stunned and recovering quite nicely on the sofa in the Crash Bay crewroom.

Amazingly the swan is quite docile once it recovers.

The problem was that swans require a stretch of water to take off, Firemen know everything. The ensuing discussion as to what to do with the bird came to the conclusion that the swan needed transport to the canal at Ripon to join it's pals and return to nature.

Clearance from the Lords and Masters at Leeming was obtained to despatch Crash Two, with swan onboard, to the canal at Ripon. So Dishforth went Black with no Crash Cover.

The uckers game resumed.

Some time later a telephone call was received from North Yorkshire Constabulary basically informing the ATCO i/c that his Firemen were now 'assisting the police with enquiries' as to the matter of 'stealing a swan'.

Apparently, Crash Two had arrived at the Ripon Canal and the crew had carried the swan down the bank to join it's pals. Job done, the crew returned to Crash Two. However, the pals were not too keen on the 'new' member and turned on it. Amidst a cacophony of honking and clouds of feathers, the Dishforth swan made a beeline for Crash Two and safety, overtaking the returning crew.

A new plan had to be hatched.

In the mean time, the obligatory 'little old lady' had looked out of her window to see 'big, burly men stealing a swan from the canal' and promptly called the Ripon Constabulary.

After much explaining by the ATCO i/c, all became clear. Swan released to river (not canal), Crash Crew released to Dishforth. Endex.

Or so was thought.

Some time later, the Daily Telegraph got hold of the story and reported it 'big time'. The headline 'Swan closes major RAF base' caused some pride in the total complement of RAF Dishforth personnel. All 12 of them (4 ATC, 2 GRSF, 5 Firemen and a Medic). RAF Dishforth, a MAJOR RAF Base.

Does it ring bells?

Rgds

FantomZorbin
15th Aug 2014, 12:53
Danny,
Thank you for your welcome.
Today, I suppose most folk would take you for some weird kind of Traffic Warden, if you appeared in uniform Oh how true!
When FZjr was a newly minted P/O, travelling in uniform, he was asked if he was the RAC ... to which he replied that he couldn't be as he still hadn't received his socket set!


Taxydual, Brilliant!!!:D

pzu
15th Aug 2014, 16:23
1340 Flight Kenya - a sad coincidence - Jack Sherburn DFC - RIP

From today's Telegraph (15/08/14) obituary for Jack Sherburn DFC

Jack Sherburn - obituary - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/11034346/Jack-Sherburn-obituary.html)

PZU Out of Africa (Retired)

Reader123
15th Aug 2014, 16:41
It's quite a while ago since Danny made the allusion to the tale from Flight, and somebody might have been there before me, but there must surely be something to the tale of the DC4 with the locked controls:

1947 - Chuck Sisto's airline prank. - on Newspapers.com (http://www.newspapers.com/clip/704496/1947_chuck_sistos_airline_prank/)

Trish Long: Incredible story about the 'Flip-Flop' plane high above El Paso - El Paso Times (http://www.elpasotimes.com/ci_18676282)

David Vs. Goliath: 9/11 and Other Tragedies - Rodney Stich - Google Books (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=l4E65n6XrgEC&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=Charles+%22Chuck%22+Sisto&source=bl&ots=O_xMEqnR9W&sig=u7tNYUkiuT8YTU2k_cbdw2ywRm8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LTXuU826LMnG0QW25oG4Dw&ved=0CHEQ6AEwDg#v=onepage&q=Charles%20%22Chuck%22%20Sisto&f=false)

Pan American Flight 6 ditching in the Pacific Ocean, Airline Ditchings, Multiple engine failure (http://airlinesafety.com/unions/Sisto.htm)

nimbev
15th Aug 2014, 17:05
Roadsman

Please say high to your Dad for me. I knew him somewhere in the Beverley world, and judging by the dates you have already posted, I think he would have been on the staff at Thorney Island when I went through the OCU in 64/65.

MPN11
15th Aug 2014, 19:15
Paging Danny 42C ...

You may have seen this earlier, but FYI ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcPx6n2dIUw

Around minute 20:50 there's a bit of GCA, dragging the servo wire across the SLA3-C PAR. Nostalgic moment??? Or didn't an FTS have decent PAR? :cool:

Danny42C
16th Aug 2014, 00:38
taxydual,

Welcome on to this Best of all Threads, particularly as you seem to be one of our noble ATC warriors. The Swan Story was one of the best I've heard for a long time ! Have you any more like it ?

I certainly couldn't have forgotten the "swan song" you've added to our store of Tales from Old Leeming/Dishforth ! I was on ATC there from Sep '67 to end Dec '72. I think this must have happened after I left. What were your dates there ?

Cheers, Danny.

FantomZorbin
16th Aug 2014, 07:31
MPN11
Did you ever come across the 'Ackroyd (sp?) Board'? An electronic indicator between Talkdown and Local to indicate position of PAR traffic and to obtain clearance for same. FY had one but maybe it was only on Bomber Command airfields.

MPN11
16th Aug 2014, 07:56
Did you ever come across the 'Ackroyd (sp?) Board'?

Yes, we had one at Strubby. Collections of different coloured map pins, with the call signs of all the Manby JPs and Strubby Varsities and Canberras [later, Dominies] - and a few blanks for visitors on which one chinagraphed the call sign

What fun you had, poking them into the little holes in the airfield diagram, to make the connection and illuminate the appropriate lamp downstairs. How one yelped when you stabbed yourself with a pin for the umpteenth time! Damn, those pins were sharp!

Our repeater was in Approach downstairs. Nothing in the GCA truck, of course, but Talkdown would be given circuit traffic with the 3-mile clearance, IIRC. It was useful to an extent, as Strubby did a lot of simple QGH approaches. I'm trying to remember whether we also had one at Tengah - I shall search some old photos later.

Invented by W. S. "Stubby" Akeroyd [subsequently gp capt] to enhance Flight Safety and Injure ATCOs :)

taxydual
16th Aug 2014, 08:01
Danny

Thanks for the welcome.

Yes I'll admit to being part of the Flying Prevention Branch. My days at Dishforth were from 1979 to 1987. Parented initially by Leeming, then Linton when Leeming was being refurbed for the F3.

At the time I was a mere Corporal Runway Controller before I became Trusty and Well Beloved. In fact for the last 2 years of my Dishforth days I was the only permanent RAF member of staff. The Mobile Glider Repair Team having been moved to Bicester and the Barrack Warden's Team to Linton. Everyone else was seconded on a monthly basis from the parent units. Alas the powers that be would not allow me to use the title 'Corporal Commanding RAF Dishforth'.

The swan story was before my time but came from the RAF Dishforth Scrap Book that was held in what was the SATCO's office. The Scrap Book contained newspaper cuttings relating to Dishforth doings dating from the '40's to date. I hope it's still there.

Rgds

TD

DFCP
16th Aug 2014, 17:51
Dishforth Danny well before your time.
I recall my father coming home just before the war--- in Dishforths Whitley days I believe.He had picked up a hitch hiking airman from there who assured him that they could see submerged submarines from the air---in shallow clear water?
Of course at that time the stories were also abroad about cars on the N Yorkshire moors being disabled by "rays" coming from what we came to know as Fylingdale

Danny42C
17th Aug 2014, 22:46
taxydual,

It seems that you came to Leeming seven years after I retired - and lots of things can happen in that time ! (including the Swan story). But, strangely enough, I never heard of a Dishforth Scrap Book, although if it dated from the '40s it must have existed then. Perhaps it had become buried under old paperwork in a drawer in SATCO's office (as things tend to do), and was not rediscovered until after '72.

Pity the RAF wouldn't "wear" a "Corporal Commanding RAF Dishforth" (after all, Napoleon did all right as "Le petit Caporal", didn't he ?) Looked up "uckers" - seems far too complicated for me. Something much simpler like chess is more in my line !

Yes, swans taking flight are a wonder to behold. In '56, on my way from Shrewsbury to Shawbury in the spring mornings around 0700, I had to cross the Severn on a footbridge over a straight stretch which was their main runway. The tricky part seemed to be first getting up onto a "step", where they hoisted themselves up on the "undercarriage", stretched out their necks and managed a paddle-assisted slow acceleration until they reached "rotate" and "feet-up". Then followed a few moments in "ground effect" until they'd reached enough airspeed to allow climb away. It was fascinating to watch.

It brought to mind a summer, thirteen years before, when I was at Spitfire OTU at Hawarden; we used to fly low-ish over the Ellesmere lakes, and they'd take off, leaving a long trail of perfectly regular "footfall" splashes on the calm lake water behind them.

Cheers, Danny.

********

FantomZorbin and MPN11,

The "Ackroyd Board" was after my time, but we had a sort of Multiple Alarm Clock for our Bloggs in Leeming Local (and I think they took it over to Dishforth with the AFS "detachment"). But no "slave" to it in Approach, I'm afraid.

May put in a Post about that if I can recall how it worked. (HughGw01, if you can hear me, please come in on this to help - your memory is 30 years younger than mine). 

Regards to you both, Danny.
...........

EDIT:

DFCP,

There was a strange story which contains two elements vaguely associated with your father's. Driving at night over the lonely moors road to Whitby, just past Fylingdales, several people at different times stopped to pick-up a airman, trudging along in the headlights, hitching a lift in that direction.

When they stopped and reached over to open the passenger door, he simply disappeared !

Did you ever hear that one ?

Danny.

Warmtoast
17th Aug 2014, 23:14
Danny

Was it related to this monstrosity in ATC at RAF Thornhill (5 FTS) in 1952?

It supposedly showed the controller where aircraft were on the ground and in the circuit by plugging in pins which illuminated sections of the board accordingly - in dispersal, taxiing, awaiting take-off, airborne, downwind etc. etc.

It hardly ever worked and was more confusing than helpful; I learnt more swear words from the duty controller operating it than I ever did from the fruitiest drill sergeant on the parade ground.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/ThornhillATC2_zpsfe7ac14b.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/ThornhillATC_zps8cdbf15a.jpg

Danny42C
18th Aug 2014, 13:34
z3m,

A suggestion: as the text of your PMs is not sensitive or personal in any way, why not put your further questions directly to me on open Post (on the "Gaining an RAF Pilots' Wings"...Thread, of course) ? It really is a much simpler and easier way.

An advantage of doing it on Open Post is that it may elicit still more information from a third interested party.

Regards, Danny42C.

Brian 48nav
19th Aug 2014, 13:01
I like the swan story but they can take-off from either land or water - they only land on water,- normally ;) !

taxydual
19th Aug 2014, 14:17
Ah. So firemen don't know everything!

Wander00
19th Aug 2014, 15:22
Amazing what you can learn on here - never knew that about swans being able to take off from land or water but land only on water - fascinating. Thank you

binbrook
19th Aug 2014, 15:46
Having seen a swan abandon T/O to paddle back and restart nearer the downwind shore, has anyone any figures for Swan performance such as still-air TODs for land and water, and unstick speed?

aw ditor
19th Aug 2014, 16:20
Balanced Field? (or pond)

Wander00
19th Aug 2014, 16:28
There was always reckoned to be the ghost of a WWII airman in flying kit who hitch-hiked on the hill near Binbrook, maybe towards Ludford where I believe there was another abandoned WWII airfield

Jobza Guddun
19th Aug 2014, 17:12
W 00

I think the story relates to the other place nearby, Kelstern. Seemingly a chap has also been seen quite often at the 625 Sqn memorial near the road.

Geriaviator
21st Aug 2014, 11:22
Hello my Pprune friends:
Geriaviator has been grounded for the past couple of months in a hangarful of ancient specimens awaiting major overhaul. There’s a big maintenance backlog and Chiefy says that four hydraulic hoses require replacement. :ooh:

As spares for us vintage models are no longer available he intends to remove lengths of suitable piping from Geriaviator’s landing gear and assures him that he can be signed off for normal service after 6-8 weeks.

In these circumstances, this superb thread is even more entertaining than usual. Wander00, as a youngster at Binbrook 1949-1951 I did hear the story of the ghostly airman, but it related to one of the satellite fields at Ludford Magna or Kelstern, can’t remember which. I wonder if younger people sense a melancholy atmosphere around so many derelict airfields, or is it just we oldies?

binbrook, I think swan TOD would depend on fuel load, ie the amount of grass, weed and frogs scoffed in the previous hour or two, of course excluding the use of DATO (dog assisted takeoff). We watched in horror as a snappy little terrier chased the swans in our local park, fortunately catching only a few elevator feathers as Mrs Swan demonstrated near-VTOL performance.

Unfortunately for Fido he failed to watch his own tail so did not see Mr Swan diving into a perfectly judged beam attack. We couldn’t see whether beak, wings or feet were used to tumble the terrier at least 10ft over the bank into the pond and a group of paddling cygnets. Big mistake. We last saw the dog running for his life surrounded by a furious formation of angry mother swans.

kookabat
21st Aug 2014, 12:52
I wonder if younger people sense a melancholy atmosphere around so many derelict airfields, or is it just we oldies?

I think anyone can. I visited the UK about five years ago on a 'pilgrimage' to various sites associated with my great uncle Jack's Bomber Command service. One of those was Bardney. Not much left there now, but my guide (the late Roger Audis, much-missed IX Sqn historian) took me around to where Jack's aircraft would have been parked, and left me alone there for a few moments.
I don't know about a 'presence' or a 'ghost' but there was definitely some sort of atmosphere there. One of the highlights of my trip.

Adam

DHfan
21st Aug 2014, 14:31
Regarding take-off facilities for swans, I'm sure I remember my dad telling me that as a young PC in Hertford he had to cart a swan down to the River Lea as it was getting nowhere trying to take-off in the High Street.

Reader123
22nd Aug 2014, 09:41
"I wonder if younger people sense a melancholy atmosphere around so many derelict airfields, or is it just we oldies?"

Definitely. They have 'ghosts' if not actual ghosts. Places that ooze history and bravery and tragedy.

I was invited to a guest night at RAF Station Northolt (by an army Captain, so it felt very pre-April 1918!) the other week, and I could feel history around me in the officers' mess. A little like visiting Tower Green where Queens were beheaded, or going to a dinner in Banqueting House and thinking of Charles I. I cannot sit in a room like that without recalling all those who hadn't made it back to the mess for dinner - or even those who had.

Danny42C
22nd Aug 2014, 22:43
We started thinking about it in '70. You may recall that, ten years before in RAF(G), they'd offered me an extension to age 55, and I'd accepted. After all, when you're 40, it doesn't seem to make much difference, 50 or 55: both are years into the future. And I still retained the option of getting out without penalty at 50.

Now decision time was only two years ahead. The options had to be considered. I made enquiries, and found that that I would earn only a derisory increase in my pension if I carried on till 55. I 'd been on the top of a Flt.Lt's payscale for years (and of course my "contract" specifically excluded any hope of promotion).

Even so, there were good reasons for staying on. The problem always was: How do I fill the gap between retirement and receiving the State Pension at 65 ? (for no one could hope to survive on my RAF pension alone.) And the prospects of suitable employment at 50 were so small that the reduction that an extra 5 years would entail was hardly worth considering. Even so, I should be on full RAF pay for five more years. The gap would be 10 years instead of 15. This, on the face of it, seemed the way to go.

But there were other factors affecting the decision. Frankly, I felt in my bones that it was time to say "Goodbye". The day of my (wartime) generation was over. It had been a good day, but now it was finished. My contemporaries were disappearing one after another. A new generation had taken over; it was no longer the RAF I knew, but a different one with a different spirit. By no means a worse one - but simply different.

I recall a winter's night about that time. At 0400 I was out on the main runway, checking the braking action. It was bitterly cold, the side flaps of our tatty old L/Rover were letting in more Siberian air than they were keeping out (and the open back didn't help much). I snuggled down in my old duffel coat and cursed as we performed yet another graceful pirouette on an icy patch. "I wish I were tucked-up home in bed", I thought, "I'm getting too old for this game !"

And from the family angle, things had changed. Moves every 2½ years were never much fun. But in your twenties (I suppose) they were a challenge. In your thirties they were tolerable. In your forties they became increasingly arduous: get your three estimates for removal and storage, pack up your goods and chattels (which had grown exponentially over the years), take your child(ren) out of school, find somewhere to live at the other end, say farewell to your friends and everybody else, march-out (or put your house on the market), load your car till the back-end was on the bump-stops and hit the road with family and pet. Then do it all in reverse at the other end.

In summer '70, we were still undecided. Then one Sunday morning something happened that was so serendipitous that it could have been an omen. Our family duly strolled down to Thirsk for Mass. Then back to the little newsagent on the corner of Topcliffe road. Here the friendly soul (who doubled as Thirsk's Special Constable) greeted me sadly. The Sunday Telegraphs had not been deliverd yet. I must be content with the Sunday Times as the least-worse alternative.

With this under my arm, we continued home in resigned dudgeon. All the duties expected of the head of the household had been done on the Saturday. The car had been washed, lawns mown, our daughter's swing shifted onto fresh grass. She and her pals and their bikes would give Sally-dog all the exercise she needed. Dad settled down in an armchair, lit his pipe and started on the "Times". This comprised umpteen sections, I worked through them all from cover to cover, with breaks for lunch and a siesta. In the evening I came to the very last section: "Official Appointments".

I riffled through this lot with little expectation. Stop-date appeared as age 45 on many of them, but nothing more - and most required qualifications I hadn't got. Then it jumped out at me. It seemed that the Civil Service Commissioners were minded to hold an Open Competition for an unspecified number of direct appointments to the established Executive Class. These would be for employment in H.M.Customs and Excise (HMC&E from now on); much of the work would be of an outdoor nature; a car would be required. You had be born not earlier than 1st November, 1921. Examinations would be held in London and many provincial centres in Spring 1971.

I was inside by exactly ten days -but it was enough ! This seemed an answer to prayer. What could I lose ? York was one of the centres, examination fees (if any ?) were minimal, I put my name down. No use building my hopes, of course - such an attractive offer (1450-x100-2150 p.a.) was good-ish money in those days, it would attract thousands of hopefuls. But: "Nothing Venture, Nothing Gain". Meanwhile I carried-on in the RAF (I think they only wanted a month's notice, anyway), and there was still two years to go (time for a few more Posts from Leeming !)

Goodnight, all.

Danny42C.


"We don't want to lose you - but we think you ought to go !" (Patriotic Music Hall song from WW1).

Danny42C
23rd Aug 2014, 01:12
Geriaviator,

Very sorry to hear that you've fallen into the clutches of the cardiologists, but I'm sure that you'll soon be back "firing on all four cylinders" (rather an apt expression in your case, I would have thought ?).

From all I hear, the risk is vanishingly small. I myself got trolleyed in a couple of years ago, but I got the "Dyno-Rod" job instead - angioplasty (in common with our revered and somewhat outspoken Prince Consort: he and I are of an age). When you get back home, you can be sure of one thing: however many pills you're taking now, you can reckon on doubling it !

The "Swan Songs" keep coming in (your last one was a smasher !) and YLSNED. One curious thing, my Shrewsbury swans always used the river instead of the perfectly good and ample greensward of the "Quarry" which ran alongside it (and in the early mornings there was no one about - not like DHfan's Dad's chap, who had to be Taken in Charge by him (for Driving a Swan without Due Care and Attention ?)

I would have supposed that a land take-off would be more energy-efficient than that from water, but it seemed not to be so. I wonder whether the "ground effect" over water is more pronounced than over "ground", and that tipped the balance - after all, the swans have been at it for a long time, and should have it all worked-out by now (and do you remember that fascinating TV programme, a few years ago: "The Great Caspian Sea Monster", which demonstrated what "Ground Effect" can really do ?)

Meanwhile, you, your wife (who is now hopefully recovered from her accident) and your family have the sympathy and prayers of me and mine. Get well soon ! (I'm sure all our PPRuNers are with me on this).

Cheers, Danny.

Chugalug2
23rd Aug 2014, 20:09
Geriaviator, I can but echo Danny's call for you to get yourself 'fit for purpose' ASAP and be back on parade posting your contributions again. Danny seems to have explained the technical procedure to an equivalent Haynes Owners Manual level, so I'm sure that the medics will refer here if at all in any doubt.


Danny:-
"it was no longer the RAF I knew, but a different one with a different spirit. By no means a worse one - but simply different."

Sooner or later I think that everyone who has served comes to that conclusion. I suppose that the Service changes because it has to, indeed if it did not it would become moribund, it's just that we all prefer the familiar rather than to experience change. In my case I didn't feel that so much at the time as I'd only done some 13 years (sorry, get some what in?), but it's certainly the case now that the present RAF is far removed from the one that I inhabited.


Also like you, I was lucky. Having bet everything on my PVR going through (and there were many other possibilities if it hadn't, usually as OC GD Flight at some remote far-flung outpost) I had to find gainful employment in the airlines. I wrote to every appropriate one listed in the annual Airlines of the World edition of Flight International. Most replied noting my application but unfortunately....


I duly left, put the required IR on my CPL for it to become an ATPL, signed on the dole and, being now in Bournemouth in April, looked forward to the prospect of a blissful summer of drawing Giros awaiting developments, while enjoying the beach there. It wasn't to be. Phone rings. "Am I looking for a job? Dan-Air want 2 pilots to start next week on a 1-11 course." He had one of them and if I wanted the other report to the Fleet Manager next day with my log-book. Duly did so, and started Monday at the grandly named Training Centre (a shed on a Horsham industrial estate). Great outfit that I stayed with until its demise over 19 years later.


So I too was lucky, and it is my belief that luck is an essential ingredient in any career. Of course, the Good Lord helps those who help themselves, but the wise leave some room for His help also!

Danny42C
25th Aug 2014, 01:12
Chugalug,

Your:
Am I looking for a job? Dan-Air want 2 pilots to start next week on a 1-11 course."

I remember, in the early '70s, watching a 1-11 coming, at regular short intervals, over Middlesbrough at circuit height, clearly on a long downwind for Teesside 23. I supposed it was on Crew Training (circuits and bumps [or overshoots ?]

Wouldn't have been you, by any chance ?
Danny.

Chugalug2
25th Aug 2014, 09:58
Could well have been me bashing the circuit getting checked out there in June 73, Danny. Alternatively, I was doing the same thing there briefly in February 1975 when we were checked out on the ex Court Line 1-11 500s.

Interestingly, in September 1975, I did my command course training at Newcastle. I can only think that the landing fee goalposts had been moved in the meantime!

Dan-Air always counted the pennies until Mr Newman (who founded the company with Mr Davies, hence Davies and Newman, hence Dan-Air) was ousted as Chairman by the remainder of the board. Pennies were beneath their radar, the debts mounted, and then the inevitable happened...

taxydual
25th Aug 2014, 17:30
Veteran pilot gets his wings - 69 years late (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/11431067.Veteran_pilot_gets_his_wings___69_years_late/)

Danny42C
26th Aug 2014, 22:19
Chugalug,

Not '73 - I was in Manchester. But '75 and I was there ! (btw, they seemed to be very low to be over a city - ANOs and all that - were you doing LL circuits ?) ....D.

Taxydual,

Thanks for the link. File card fell down the back of the cabinet, I guess ! But it all turned out right in the end. But on ages and dates given, he would have enlisted in '43, but didn't get to FTS in Canada until Feb '45 - (very long ITW, or in a ground trade, or [most likely as ACH/GD], the poor devil had had a lot of coal-shovelling to do).

And then it was all over bar the shouting (in Europe in May, and in the Far East in August '45). Must have been disappointing - all dressed up and nowhere to go. Good luck to the lad (any chance of getting him on Thread - we haven't had much on the very last days of wartime flying training ?)

"Northern Echo", like most of our Press, cannot yet get its head round "Air Vice Marshal" (not Marshall !), but strangely don't print "Field Marshall".....D.

Cheers to you both, Danny.

Chugalug2
28th Aug 2014, 10:22
Danny:-
(btw, they seemed to be very low to be over a city - ANOs and all that - were you doing LL circuits ?
Without a registration, date, TOD, and corroborative witnesses, you can't pin that rap on me, you hear?

Seriously, I don't remember anything other than some half dozen of us F/Os taking turns to climb into the RHS seat, bash a circuit or two and then climb out for the next man. I can't even remember what livery the aircraft was in but as it wasn't bearing its later Dan Air reg I suspect it was white hulled, having been de-liveried from its very fluorescent Court Line colours. The Court Line 518s featured a leading edge with a concave under surface which no doubt gave the desired increased field performance when new. As they became gradually modified by being struck by various baggage trucks, steps, and other sundry vehicles, they didn't...The ex BCal 509s had a conventional leading edge that such wear and tear had less effect on.

I once wrote to BAC (Bae) asking for a 1-11 Training Manual, stating that I flew the series 207, 301, 401, 414, 416, 509, 515, 517, 518, 525, and 531. I hadn't mentioned my employer but the nice man at BAC was not to be fooled. "You're with Dan-Air, aren't you?" he said over the phone as he confirmed the book was already in the post to me.

Danny42C
28th Aug 2014, 21:41
Chugalug,

Your:
"Without a registration, date, TOD, and corroborative witnesses, you can't pin that rap on me, you hear?" As if I would "shop" you, old chap ! (We're all supposed to be on the same side, after all !).

The 1-11 looks a nice piece of work. Wiki says EU noise limitations were instrumental in its demise. Was the Spey really all that loud ? (And then the 737 inherited the Earth !) :*

Cheers, Danny.

Chugalug2
29th Aug 2014, 07:01
Danny:-
Was the Spey really all that loud ?Well not from where I was sitting, or indeed anywhere else inside it, thanks to it being rear engined, but outside and near the runway, if one was taking off, was a different story. The Spey was an excellent engine, very reliable as one made by RR would be expected to be, but it was primarily a military engine and noise was not the issue that it later became back then.

The sad thing about the 1-11 was that from a triumphal start (we sold it, like the Viscount, to the US airlines), Douglas quickly caught it up with the later DC-9, which was developed into the successful MD-80 and -90 series by stretching and re-engining.; Despite plans to do exactly the same with the 1-11 (the -800 with CFM-56 engines, the two and three eleven proposals) nothing came of it. Instead the production stopped with the 500 series, and the production line and jigs were shipped to Romania where ROMBAC either produced 9 aircraft in 10 years or 10 aircraft in 9 years, I forget which.

BAE wanted to put all their eggs into the 146/RJ basket, and HMG into the bottomless Concorde one. The 1-11 became yet another ingredient of the demise of the UK aircraft industry. Lions led by donkeys?

Danny42C
30th Aug 2014, 00:04
There has been much discussion on this Thread of the many weird and wonderful devices which have, over the years, been devised in various RAF ATC Local Control Towers with several objects in mind:

(a) to provide a visual display on the Local Control desk of the position of all aircraft taxying ,or in circuit at any one time; those which have cleared airfield and gone over to Approach frequency; and those which are returning to circuit under Approach Control (particularly on Controlled Descents and Instrument Approaches such as ILS or PAR "Talkdown").

This is primarily in order to provide Local Controller with a visual picture of the state of play at any one moment; to enable an instant "hand over" of the position at shift end, or for any other reason (when things may be very busy indeed); and to enable the Supervisor or SATCO to grasp the situation "at a glance" when said things may be going "pear-shaped" :ooh:, and another hand is needed - PDQ !

(b) by some ingenious arrangement of wiring, coloured "pea-bulbs", or squeaks/buzzers etc, to relay this information to the Approach Room (usually downstairs), to do with as they will.

The basic component on which all such systems are based is the Mapping Pin, and I can heartily endorse all that has been said (by MPN11 - p.305 #6087 and others) about its capacity to inflict painful wounds with its diabolically sharp point. On the top you can Chinagraph three or four callsign letters or digits to indentify the "owner".

And as each such "owner" may need two or three Pins at once (for different purposes), and you may have 100 "resident" pilots (whose callsigns will be written on their "sets" - for Chinagraph quickly rubs off - it adds up to a lot of pins in the "pin-bank" on your desk (see Warmtoast - p.305 #6091).

This begs the question of Who was going to keep all these pins moving ? When things are quiet, Local has only a few "live" callsigns on his plate at any one time, and can easily do it himself while keeping up the patter. But when an AFS really gets going full-throttle (and Strubby in my day was regularly clocking-up 500 movements a day (about the same then as LHR), it would keep your Assistant working like the proverbial "one-armed paper hanger". (I always use to reassure our new Controllers: "If you can hack it here, you can hack it anywhere - anything after this will be a rest-cure !")

And now there was an extra job for another Assistant, which leads me to:

(c) (but only on those AFS, when Bloggs is under training on jet aircraft), in order to save Bloggs, (who may be so wrapped-up in his new experiences that he forgets the passage of time and the voracious thirst of his jet engine or engines), from the inevitable result, by giving him a wake-up call (essentially: "Come in No.22 - your time is up !")

Most involved putting a second pin of his "set" in some form of time-frame, Assistant put this pin in at T/O time plus 30 mins (Meteor) or 40 ? mins (JP), and told Local when the clock reached that time. Local gave tongue accordingly.

But as Assistant was doing another dozen jobs at the same time, calls got missed: what was needed was a foolproof (automatic) system. Step forward F/Sgt Somebody-or-Other, who submitted his design, it was accepted, he collected a £250 Award,* and we (and other places ?) were stuck with it. (* Some disaffected persons maintained that he should have been put inside for wasting Service time and materials).

Now I shall describe what it looked like: You built a shallow open-topped wooden box about two feet square. Depth would be about nine inches at the bottom twelve at the top, so that it could more easily be read . The top consisted of a two-foot square of perspex, in the centre of which a "marine" type brass clock of about 8 inch diameter was buried with face flush with the perspex. This left a 8-inch "ring", marked radially in 60 one degree segments, with concentric rings about an inch apart, and a pin-hole in the centre of each "compartment" so formed. (I've never seen a photograph of the thing).

And that is enough for Part I, Part II will follow in a day or two when I have cudgelled my brains a bit more, and All will be Revealed. Stay with me !

Regards to all,

Danny42C.


Treats in Store !

PS: Chugalug,

Too true ! ('Twas ever thus !)...D.

Hempy
30th Aug 2014, 02:09
Danny42C,

Please allow me to take a little time-out here to simply say 'thank you'.

I am ex-mil. I am now an Air Traffic Control instructor with my national ANSP. I am 45 years of age.

I've been a member of PPRuNe for over a decade. I have enjoyed reading, and have gained more from your contributions to this site, than I have from any other contributor here in all of those years.

You Sir are a legend. I am very tempted to jump on an aeroplane and fly 10,000 miles simply to seek you out and spend 1/2 an hour in the local over a 7 ounce glass of beer.

I salute you, and thank you.

Now, on with the thread!

Danny42C
30th Aug 2014, 20:10
Hempy,

In the face of such a generous eulogy, what can I possibly say ?.......Just "Thanks".

It has been my pleasure to have had the chance to tell my long and tortuous tale over these past two years, to have been able to plug the gap when the giants like Cliff, Reg and Fred had (sadly) left us, and to "hold the Fort" until reinforcements from the depleted ranks of the "Pilots' Brevets of WWII" have come in to lend a hand to keep the Thread going.

Your offer is tempting indeed, and I would be delighted to take you up on it, but as it must remain in the realms of our imagination, I shall open a can of what is laughingly sold here as the "draught" Dark Waters of the Liffey, and raise a glass of the contents to you, Sir.

As you say, "On with the Motley !"

Cheers, Danny. :ok:

Adam Nams
31st Aug 2014, 06:21
Hello all,

I am hoping that the collective wisdom and memories of all those who post on this particular thread can help me with an entry from my late father's service record and in particular his time at No 4 Air School at Benoni.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f59/winchmein/014_zps9534d063.jpg


I know that he crashed and was hospitalised at Roberts Heights, but I am curious what the entry following his hospital discharge is. It looks like "M.(?.?). Depot". I know that there was an aircraft and artillery depot at Roberts Heights, but the entry doesn't seem to fit that.

If anyone can shed some light on what this could be then I would be very grateful.

Many thanks in anticipation

Adam

Petet
31st Aug 2014, 08:53
Adam


It could be Mobile Air Force Depot, which some websites are showing as being at Roberts Heights (although the mobile may suggest that it wasn't there permanently).


I am guessing that it was a holding depot.


Anyway, I hope this is a possible start point, rather than a red herring.


Regards


Pete

Adam Nams
31st Aug 2014, 09:59
Pete,

Many thanks for the lead. Having searched for 'MAF' it could well be that. I do believe that he was holding after the accident whilst they decided what to do with him.

Thanks again and much appreciated.

Adam

Fareastdriver
31st Aug 2014, 10:32
he was lucky they didn't need glider pilots in South Africa.

Warmtoast
31st Aug 2014, 11:45
Adam

Possibly your father's skills were improving because according to Wiki:

62 Air School Tempe (Bloemfontein) Flying Instructor Training - 11 Nov 1940 (ex CFS) 19/24 Feb 1945

Adam Nams
31st Aug 2014, 13:32
Warmtoast,

Thanks.
My father never flew again after the crash. However, he was retrained as a Link Training Instructor, hence the connection to 62 AS.

Regards
Adam

Danny42C
31st Aug 2014, 16:34
Before we start, I have to say that I've never actually seen inside this mechanism, for obviously there must have been some way of opening it up, as the lower clock would need access for winding. Nor have I seen any kind of Schematic Diagram, so this is how I think it must have worked.

All I know from overhearing references to the beast is that there were two clocks involved, also "knitting needles", and that it was plugged into the mains. From that I have conjectured this design which I'm now about to present to you.

If there be anybody within earshot who can remember anything about it, please come forward and tell us. It would undoubtedly have had a name, probably that of the F/Sgt who'd designed it, but if tnat were so I've forgotten it.

You may think I sound remarkably incurious about this new toy, but all I was concerned with was how our Assistants worked it. It was simple enough. When a solo JP took off, the Asst. took out two pins with the callsign, one for Local's desk display, the other went into the perspex top of the Alarm, in the segment indicated by the pointer of the clock minute hand.

It might be that several aircraft took-off during that same minute, in which case they were added to those already there. I think there were eight holes along each degree segment, and even if they were all full, you could put any extras into the next one - the chap would get his call only a minute late.

Now comes the crafty bit. Below the first clock was a second one. And, immediately below the top perspex, stretching down the mid-point of every one minute sector, was fixed a pair of (colloquially known as) "knitting needles". These were pairs of small brass or copper rods of some 1-2mm section, normally set parallel, very closely (0.5mm ?) apart, but not actually touching. A Mapping pin could pass through the hole above, and make good electrical contact between them.

The rest was easy. you took the glass off No.2 Clock (set 40 mins after No.1), rigged a tiny metal contact to brush lightly over the tip of the minute hand and went to work with thin flex and soldering iron to set up a low voltage DC circuit between minute hand, spring contact, rod to pin to rod, on to the buzzer/squeaker/bulb, and back.

Then do it all again 59 times, each time wiring to the next minute's rod (obviously at the base, for there you'd have about 30mm (the width of your segment) to work in, whereas, at the top end (eight inches up) there would only be 10mm. Add a transformer/rectifier, plug-in and off you go.

A difficult point might be the fixing of the pairs of rods so that they were held the exact distance apart but still leaving sufficient air gap to ensure the necessary insulation. A tiny block of perspex, drilled with two holes (even in the worst case of, say, 2mm rods), could fit in 4.5mm overall for holes and still give room of 2.75mm at each side for fixing at the top of the segment. Should be a doddle for any instrument mechanic !

And all this is mere supposition - just my guess as to how it might have been be done (there must have been other ways - probably better !)

40 mins on, the No.2 clock hand would have worked round to the segment of the original pins; these bridged the rods gap, the circuit was closed, and the Alarm did whatever it was set up to do. For the rest of the minute it would buzz (or whatever) until the last Bloggs in the segment had been warned and his pin removed. IIRC, there was no follow up, clearly any Bloggs who ran out of fuel after such a timely reminder should clearly have been "chopped".

As for the Alarm Box I remember, the varnished woodwork was of high quality, it was bulky and very heavy, much too big to put on a control desk. So it had to go on a separate table, and as Local's Assistant sat by him at the desk, I suppose we had to be established for another Asst. to sit at this table and operate the device.

And that's really all that needs to be said about the Multiple Alarm Clock.

Anyone with anything to add ?

Good evening once again, chaps,

Danny42C.

Ingenious, these Chinese !

MPN11
1st Sep 2014, 08:30
An interesting dissertation, Danny42C. I knew those 'Jet Clocks' existed, and recall seeing one in the occasional photograph, but as I never worked on an FTS I had no practical experience.

We did come up with some weird and wonderful equipment in ATC. :cool:

Chugalug2
1st Sep 2014, 10:52
Excellent feat of reverse engineering, Danny, it will be interesting if someone with knowledge of the insides of this state of the art analogue device can tell us how they conformed or varied with your specs. At least Tupolev had possession of a B-29 in order to replicate it in the form of the Tu-4, you had only sight of the MAC (I wonder what the official Ref and title was) but it has obviously nagged away at you since those days of the more immediate demands pressing upon an AFS SATCO.

Not quite the same process I know, but in taking a Victorian railway carriage body to pieces, repairing/replacing those pieces, producing missing parts removed while in domestic grounded body mode, and then rebuilding same for running in a preserved train, you are forever asking yourself why, what, how? Why did they do it that way, or what way did they do it? What order did they do it in? How did they do it?

A time machine would be a great advantage of course. You couldn't see your way to drafting out the mechanics of one by any chance...?

FantomZorbin
1st Sep 2014, 11:22
We did come up with some weird and wonderful equipment in ATC

But we could also keep it ECO friendly and simple: The 'Direct Line' between Met. and the Approach Room in the old tower at RAF Luqa ... a length of string, knicker elastic, bulldog clip and a bell!

DFCP
1st Sep 2014, 17:09
Well Danny thanks to taxidual we now have the story of the belated "wings" presentation to Wilson Taylor 69 years after his "wings test"
I couldnt make sense of either the Northern Echo or BBC video, s explanation of why he wasnt given his brevet way back in 45---lack of operational experience, provisional "wings"??.
The story brought back memories on the cessation of overseas aircrew training as the war ended and the influx of I suppose thousands of u/t aircrew to Bircham Newton and Docking in late 45.We were given the option of gentlemanly agreeing to eventually sign on if we continued training and obtained our brevet.
The experiences of two friends who opted for this were strange---one got his pilots brevet and commission. However when he was unable to get a satisfactory answer on his career path he refused to sign on and was transferred to ATC until his normal demob number came up.
The other guy graduated as a navigator and did sign on but he said that some on his course refused to sign on and were denied their brevet.
Back to WilsonTaylor---I note from the picture of his logbook in the BBC video that he
took his wings exam on August 21 45 at 18 SFTS RCAF Gimli---on the internet it states that 18 SFTS Gimli closed in May 45 but it seems more likely that this was when WT, s course began.
I had always thought that after EFTS at Yorkton in Sept 45 we would have gone on to what I erroneously thought was the only SFTS still operating at Calgary and then to the Liberator.
OTU in BC.
I recognise that this is outside your experience Danny but I think it might be of interest if other u/t, s could shed futher light on this era---it is too late to ask Richard Burton who was at one of the three ANS, s still operating---Summerside PEI and I think Portage and Rivers in Manitoba
Best Wishes,
D

Danny42C
3rd Sep 2014, 16:04
Chugalug, (ref your #6125)

More a case of an overactive imagination than a feat of reverse engineering, I must confess !

As I've said many Posts ago, the real solution was to select for pilot training only those candidates who could demonstrate the ability to tell the time and read a fuel gauge. As these are fairly normal accomplishments in everyday life, this should not be too restrictive, I would have thought.

Did anyone "nanny" us in this way in our time ? No !! And it is no answer to say: "It was all right for you, you had four, eight, twenty-four hours, or whatever, fuel aboard when you took off. But poor Bloggs in his Meteor had only 40 minutes (if lucky) when he got the fires going, and perhaps 35 when he had wheels-up".

But, as we all know, it doesn't matter how much you started with, the day will come when only 30 minutes are left, and you're starting to sweat a bit. :( Doesn't self-preservation click-in ?

Did the USAF worry about this in (say) the T-33 ?.....D.

Fantom Zorbin,

But it worked ! Low first cost (unless BaE was the contractor). Nil maintenance and 100% servicability. What more could you want ?....D. :ok:

DFCP,

Post-Hiroshima/Nagasaki, it was total confusion everywhere. We couldn't make sense of it even at the time. No one will ever unravel it now.....D. :confused:

Cheers to you all, Danny.

Fareastdriver
3rd Sep 2014, 16:14
I was told the Lightning Mk3 with both burners going at low level would break a million windows in the fifteen minutes it took to use up all of it's fuel.

dogle
3rd Sep 2014, 18:30
An other - somewhat unkind? - Lightning chestnut was:

Q. What is the turning circle of a Lightning on full reheat?

A. Forget it, you have fuel exhaustion before you manage a 360 that way!

MPN11
3rd Sep 2014, 18:36
ISTR that 20's Hunter F9s going from Tengah to Seletar for majors were stripped of everything (including Sabrinas) ... and there was a roster for doing the delivery flights. They didn't last 30 minutes.

Any members of F-Troop here?

Danny42C
3rd Sep 2014, 20:37
Another Bright Idea made its appearance in ATC about this time and is worthy of a mention. From the beginning of aviation time (or rather since runways were invented), aviators had been ever more sensitive to "Braking Distances", and the malign effect on runways of rain and (above all, ice).

But all judgment was subjective. The only way to determine whether a runway was flyable was to send a chap out to see. Sometimes there were differences of opinion: I recall a morning somewhere; it'd been a sharp night. Local came back from the morning airfield inspection. "What's it like, Chief ?"....."Not too bad on the runway, mostly dry, but some big ice patches still".

Off I went to Briefing, my turn came to get on the rostrum and say my piece, including the above, verbatim. "Nonsense !" snapped CFI, "I've just come down from my Quarter, all the roads are perfectly firm and dry ! After Briefing, I'll try the Runway myself".

Crestfallen, I was in no position to argue. Briefing over, CFI went back to his office, then fired up his Ensign pick-up and sallied forth. I went straight up to top Tower (they'd just cleared him onto the airfield), told what had happened, we got out the binoculars and watched carefully. At first it looked as if "he'd had the right of it". The Ensign seemed under perfect control, and stopped in a straight line. Out he got, took two firm, confident paces. On the third, he did what in the States they call a "Snap Vertical Reverse" (ie half a "Snap" - "Flick" to us) Roll, his feet flew up in the air and we could feel the inpact as he landed on his derrière.

It must have been painful. He scrambled somehow back on his feet - then arms and legs were flying all over the place as he gave us an encore. (Note ##) This time he was more careful, and managed to limp/shuffle back to his Ensign. (By now, his unfeeling, disloyal subordinates in Top Tower were positively rolling about with schadenfreude).

He vanished back into FWHQ. A few moments later SATCO looked in:"CFI's just been on - they're holding take offs for an hour to let this stuff burn off". Clearly, the RAF needed a Better Idea, and (as sometimes happens) one was forthcoming. (Now what follows is wholly from memory). Imagine something about the size of a trolley-acc, towed by our L/Rover. On the back there was a sort of outrigger, in which was mounted a bike wheel in a castor. Of course, this wheel did not carry any of the trailer weight, but I think was kept in contact with the ground by a spring.

Now this bike wheel in its castor (left alone) would obviously run "true". But it wasn't left alone. The castor had a sort of tiller, attached to the trailer by a coil spring, At rest, this would pull the wheel some 20-30 degrees out of "true". Running on a firm, dry surface, however, tyre grip would obviously pull the wheel back to "true" against the tension of the (fairly weak) spring.

But on sheet ice (say), it would be diffferent story. Now the tyre had lost its grip on the surface, the spring would be able to pull wheel and castor out of "true": the slippier the surface, the more the deflection.

Fine so far, but where does this get us ? Now for the clever bit. Connected to the end of the "tiller" was a sticky-inked stylus. Add a narrow roll of graph paper with a clockwork motor to drive it around slowly (thermograph style), and "voilà !"

Now Controller could go out onto one end of a freezing runway, set device going, then drive carefully at a prescribed speed (20 mph ?) up and down the length of the runway, first a quarter of the width across, then turn and back mid-width, then turn and back three quarters across. Stop and switch off. Drive back round t/way to Tower. Put kettle on. Send minion out to bring in graph roll. Read the Runes. Record in Local Log. Simple.

It was win-win all round. Instead of haphazard pedestrian estimates (with attendant risks to life and limb) you got a comprehensive, objective record with which none could argue. Apart from getting out to switch on and off, Controller stayed in the "warmth" (?) of the L/Rover throughout. Couldn't be better. What did we call it ? - no idea.

Once again, I appeal to anyone who can Assist us with our Enquiries, to come forward on Thread.

Cheers, Danny42C.


The Appliance of Science

Note ##:
(This triggered a curious "flash-back", I recall an incident in my youth. I bounded onto the ice with the guards still on my skates. The result was spectacular, much like a "Zurakowski" or "Niezrechi" (Busta). The landing (on ice) is as painful as on tarrmac !) :*

(Every skater does this once, nobody ever does it twice).

Spiney Norman
3rd Sep 2014, 21:44
Danny.
The equipment you describe sounds very like a device called a mu-meter, which is actually still in use but in a very modified form. I must admit. I remember using it's predecessor, the Tapley meter. I still have the lumps on my forehead to prove it.

Spiney.

smujsmith
3rd Sep 2014, 22:07
Danny, Spiney Norman,

Surely the device you describe is the forerunner of the Runway Friction Meter ? I'm sure someone currently serving will confirm its continued existence. It appears this is the latest form of the device:

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/4b83ff3eef1230d147e5622005873875_zps84a66632.jpg

I'm sure it's better than seeing a Senior Officer going @rse over tit :eek:

Smudge:ok:

Spiney Norman
3rd Sep 2014, 22:22
Hi Smuj.
That's the fellah! If I remember correctly the device was driven at 40 MPH along paths 10 metres either side of the runway centreline in either direction. In the early days the operator, (a fireman at the first airfield I encountered it), would read off the recorded figures in thirds of each run. We would then convert these to co-efficient of friction figures that would be passed to aircraft as a verbal report, i.e. Good-Good-Medium Good to describe the braking action to pilots who needed the info. Later on, the machine was operated by airfield operations guys who would do all the converting for us which was just as well as I seem to remember that in the early days the 'conversion device' was an enormous metal circular slide rule like a ping-pong bat!

Spiney.

Danny42C
3rd Sep 2014, 23:07
Smudge and Spiney Norman,

That's my boy - or at least his lineal descendant ! My, hasn't he grown !

"I'm sure that it's better than seeing a Senior Officer........" Matter of opinion, I think.

Lovely picture, though. Cheers, Danny.

Chugalug2
4th Sep 2014, 11:49
Danny:-
"Nonsense !" snapped CFI, "I've just come down from my Quarter, all the roads are perfectly firm and dry ! After Briefing, I'll try the Runway myself".
If it is of any consolation, Danny, he wasn't the only CFI with a Canute like attitude to icy runways. Ours at Oakington, where the ice had built up over the Christmas grant by snowing, thawing, freezing, and repeating as above, certainly displayed the same sangfroid as displayed by yours. All we students were sent out into the icy wilderness to hack at the stuff with shovels and picks until we had at last cleared half the length and half the width of the runway.

Our job wasn't made easier by the failure of the previous good idea which was to park and chock the 5FTS Vampires in echelon at the runway end, start them up, and run the engines up to melt the snow and ice. The resultant slush had nowhere to go, as the drains were frozen up as well, and soon reverted to an even more formidable icy covering than was there before.

Finally our labours were declared sufficient and we retired to the warmth and shelter of our crewrooms from where we watched the next part of the saga. CFI starts up Vampire, taxies onto our mini runway, gets airborne, does a circuit, and makes his approach. Touchdown was at the very start of the cleared surface, but that was quickly consumed. Now he was careering along the remaining uncleared half until finally being brought to a halt by the barrier.

Plan B was now brought into play, our aircraft (Varsities for we ME types) were to be flown off but positioned to nearby Wyton, which had been blacktop all along thanks to that other great RAF secret weapon, the trailer mounted Goblins. We students were then bused back and forth until Nature finally relented and handed us back our own runway again...

Danny42C
4th Sep 2014, 14:32
Chugalug,

Ah, the delights of our mild and equable climate ! (or that's what our Geography books used to tell us). Your foolhardy CFI was lucky to have a runway at all to try, in my experience the scenario goes like this: By dint of the Herculean labours of the Student Body (under the Whips and Scorpions of their Instructors), and ATC (same from SATCO), a semblance of a runway reappears (10/10 blue dawn to dusk, of course, while these operations are in progress).

Meanwhile Clerk of the Weather watches and waits with malicious glee. When you have bust half the runway lights and final victory is at last announced, you get a 8-inch dump of snow and have to start all over again (this is built into the Training System and called "Character Building" - the plebs have other names for it). :{

Yet this is Not the Spirit that made the Empire Great. Once more faithful (?) Bloggs is called to shovel and brush duty until he collapses from sheer exhaustion. You have bust the rest of your runway lights, but once again some sort of a surface is to be seen. :ok:

Then comes the weekend, it rains heavily, by Monday morning it is all gone; you didn't need to have done anything at all in the first place - the result would have been the same (except that you now have the bills for a new set of lights, umpteen hours overtime for the civilian plough drivers, and n tons of Urea for de-icing - say £800 per de-ice per runway). :(

There speaks the Voice of Experience (and so the most valuable attribute a SATCO can possess is an ability to persuade his OC(F) to Leave It Alone, this is not Siberia (or Berlin), just pretend it's Not There and it will (most times) go away by itself.

Admittedly, this means that all P***n has to do is to wait for the next snowfall and strike, but any weekend would do, come to that.

Cheers, Danny.

smujsmith
4th Sep 2014, 22:27
A strong argument Danny, but, as an ex Erk myself, if the two winged master race weren't up there being hero's, it generally meant that as Aircraft fitters we were sent out to do, de icing, guard duties, anti terrorist foot patrols, with pick axe handles. Oh the variety of "keeping the Erks busy" that could be invented when the airfield became snowbound. Curiously, I never saw a pilot out shovelling snow, we even had to clear the squadron buildings for them, poor chaps to get to their coffee machines.:sad:

Smudge:ok:

FantomZorbin
5th Sep 2014, 07:40
Aah! The magic Urea!
When we received the first issue we were warned about its over enthusiastic use ... apparently a certain airfield had used its entire annual allocation in a couple of weeks of icy weather. The airfield had maintained its 'Black Top' status throughout the 'snow event' (current parlance, eugh!). All was well, the CO had gained plenty of 'Brownie Points' in keeping his airfield operational and the training graph climbing.
However, come the BoB Cocktail Party, when the great and the good including the Regional Health Officer (RHO) came for a sherbert or two, it became apparent where all the run-off of the now diluted Urea had gone to, the local watercourses. The RHO was much enlightened to realise why the local townspeople had had a spate of tummy ailments ... a run of bad luck one might say!!:O

FantomZorbin
5th Sep 2014, 07:57
The Mu Meter, produced by ML Aviation at White Waltham. I was sent to go and be introduced to this machine. It proved to be very accurate, even showing the different braking action on either side of the runway and the touchdown area compared with the rest of the runway. The amount of paper scrolls it produced was a problem though, try putting that lot in a file!
ML towed the demo model behind a Jaguar XKn "It's accurate up to 120mph" said the man, "No ****ing chance!" said the MTO at our unit in response to a particularly obsequious request to swap 'Rover'.

Danny42C
5th Sep 2014, 15:59
Smudge,

Ah, yes - but Bloggs did not qualify as a member of the TWMR. He was generally regarded as being no more ornamental than your average erk, but much less useful. He could be called upon at any time to perform any menial duties which required mere brawn and numbers: any brainwork involved would be the province of the TWMR (ie the QFIs and just about everbody else). He suffered these indignities in the hope of joining the TWMR himself one day.

Even so: "The Gentlemen must draw with the Mariners" (Drake). When your back's against the wall (airfield six feet under snow) we all had to muck-in; although come to think of it, I never saw a Station Commander do much other than come out to have a look at us, say "Jolly Good Show, Chaps - Carry On !" and climb back into his warm car......D.

FantomZorbin,

Nowadays you'd have the full fury of the Environment Police down on your luckless head ! Apparently the excess of nitrates in the watercourses had all sorts of unwanted results, it stimulated noxious waterweed into rampant growth which choked them, fish died and there was an outcry from the angling fraternity, innocent farmers were blamed for putting too much nitrogenous fertiliser on their land, there was a right to-do, and no mistake ! Meanwhile there's you, shovelling the stuff on your runway by the ton, and butter wouldn't melt in your mouth !

Your: "...the amount of paper scrolls was a problem..." There's always the Circular Filing Cabinet ! Anyway, today it's probably all on a SD card - whatever they are. An XT at 120 ? Not on an icy runway, I hope...:eek:..D.

Cheers, both. Danny.

Danny42C
6th Sep 2014, 23:56
It is time to bring up to date the progress of my bread-and-butter post-Retirement plans. You may recall that in late '70, I'd been interested in the possibility of a second "Career" (??) in HM Customs & Excise, via a possible (but unlikely) success in a National Competitive Examination to be held throughout the United Kingdom in the spring of '71.

The due date came, and I was summoned to present myself (for the written parts of the Exam), at a large Hall (name forgotten) in York. It was quite close to the route from Bootham Bar to the top of Lendal (the scene of my triumphal journey through York in my Isetta eight years before).

No difficulty in finding the place, and Thirsk-York is no problem. There were about 200 of us assembled, and my impression of my fellows was: "a Hangdog lot". I think that the examination was over two or three days, and I'm a bit hazy over the papers, but there was certainly a (relatively easy) Maths, an English which gave me no difficulty (the usual long text passages which you had to edit for errors in spelling, grammar and syntax), an essay of some sort to write, and something which I immediately recognised as what a Staff College Paper (never having been there), might be like.

I was invited to imagine that I was the Deputy Director of Education for Loamshire, tasked with organising the transport and accommodation for a large number of delegates to some Conference or other. Several ways of approaching the problem were outlined, it was required of me to choose the one which would be most efficient (and therefore economical), and then justify my choice. I have no recollection of any details now, but it filled a thoughtful three hours on a warm afternoon. I noticed that by half way through the time, quite a large number had "thrown in the towel" and walked out. I was quietly (but not over) confident - for it had been a long time since I'd been at school !

Again a few months before the results were announced.

Abou ben Adem's name did not "lead all the rest", but he came in at a creditable No. 129 in order of merit out of a field of 7700 odd. The old eye had not lost its cunning, nor the old hand its skill, it seemed. I'd always been a member of the "examination-passing Classes" (or a miserable little swot, depending on which way you looked at it). I would certainly be going forward for interview, but it was by no means "in the bag" yet. Decision time for me was still twenty months ahead, no need to burn my RAF boats for quite some time to come.

Two or three months later, my interview took place somewhere in Leeds. From later knowledge of C&E, I would guess my three examiners would be a Surveyor and two Senior Officers (Customs ranks roughly comparable to a W/Cdr and two S/Ldrs). It was clear from the outset that they were much more interested in my earlier Civil Service history than in the details of my RAF "career". Three years from '38 and two post-war as an established Clerical Officer in the old Ministry of Labour and National Service, followed by a year as a Junior Executive Officer (a rank which no longer exists) in National Insurance, and had held a Commission in War and Peace Service - I must have seemed an ideal candidate for their requirements.

"But you do appreciate, Mr.D., that if appointed, you will be on probation for four years before entering the field for promotion. And even then, as you will be aged 54, and the retiring age for Senior Officers is '62, your prospects are not all that good ?" Yes, I quite understood that (in fact, it made very little difference to us, I would reach the top of my C&E payscale in '79; together with my RAF pension, this would give us an income some 20% higher than my RAF pay in '72 (assuming equal Inflation increases).

There were some random questions, mainly fom one of the S/0s who seemed to have a background in betting duty. Which bets would a bookie try to keep "off the books" - winners or losers (from the punter's angle) ? Obviously the losers. What did I know about the operation of Purchase Tax ? (VAT was to replace it). What would I do if a disgruntled "client" thumped me ? Thump him back, of course ! (Right Answer ? - no idea). They were intrigued by my skating experiences. Was there a rink in Leeds ? (Yes, the "Silver Blades").

"Thank you, Mr D., you'll hear from us in due course". (I was quite pleased with the way my interview had gone - it was now just a matter of time).

In which to put in my last few Posts on this Thread, before I "divested myself of my tunic" for the last time.

Goodnight, chaps,

Danny42C.


All's Well that Ends Well !

MPN11
7th Sep 2014, 12:34
Your richly varied career rolls ever onward, Danny42C ... never a dull moment, eh?

Looking forward to the next thrilling instalment, which hopefully includes tips of the trade that we can then use to our advantage!!

As an aside (on Customs) we arrived at Dulles Airport on Friday, having completed our US Customs Declaration (CBP Form 6059B) on the aircraft. This was presented, along with our Passports, at Immigration, where the Form was duly read and stamped. Then, having reclaimed our bags, we joined another line/queue ... where a Customs operative duly took the Form, grunted and waved us onward. I assume this helps reduce unemployment in the USA? ;) Although possibly it ensures we don't substitute a different Form after Immigration but before leaving the Terminal. But even so, I always wonder what this double process is actually intended to achieve.

Ian Burgess-Barber
7th Sep 2014, 15:40
Danny

"In which to put in my last few Posts on this Thread, before I "divested myself of my tunic" for the last time".

I don't like the sound of this at all...... or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

Ian BB

smujsmith
7th Sep 2014, 16:11
IBB,

Like you, I'm hoping that Danny is referring to divesting his No 1 SD tunic, rather than ending his posts on this thread. Because, whatever he has done between leaving the service until now is relevant to following the history from back in the early 40s. Obviously, none of us would ask of our "senior man" anything he does not want to voluntarily pen, but I for one, as an ex serviceman have always had an interest in how others fared, post service. Impressions of life as a "civvy", the reality of not having that organisation behind you. I'm sure the long suffering moderators can see the link and would welcome more input from "Mr D".

Diutius est iter itineris Danny (apologies for the scrofulous Latin)

Smudge:ok:

Danny42C
8th Sep 2014, 01:20
MPN-11,

I'm afraid I was not in a uniformed branch of Customs (when I would have appeared as as a pale imitation of a Lieutenant RN), so cannot throw any more light on the foibles of the US Customs than the average layman.

Offhand, I would say that you were perfectly correct in assuming it was a strategem to create Job Opportunities where there were no Jobs. This I saw in its most blatant form as the "Indian Rope Trick" (Two men, one spade and a piece of rope: No.1 digs in and rests from his labour. No.2 has the rope tied to the bottom of the spade handle, he heaves out the spoil, No.1 takes over, and so on).

And if you think that is a Tall Story, you should take a look at the Administration of the NHS, and weep (if you are a taxpayer of this fair Land, that is), as I assume you to be....D.

Ian BB,

It is mainly so, as I have to tell you. All good things must come to an end, and my story is no exception. I have always intended to bring it to a close when I took the Light Blue off for the final time, and shall not extend it into any chronolgical tale of my time as a (generally feared and treated with suspicion) VATman. In any case, Mr Alf Wight (aka James Herriot), who treated our "Sally" for her odd doggy ailment in his surgery in Churchgate (Thirsk), had the cumudgeonly but lovable Dales Farmer business pretty well sewn up; a retired Schools Inspector (name forgotten) had followed up with the Dales Village Schools angle; I do not wish to tag along with "A VATMan in the North York Moors Pubs" - that would be just too much !

Yet I hope our Moderators will permit me the status of an Emeritus "Old Man in the Corner", who may butt in from time to time on this Thread (or its successor in title, for Old Soldiers Simply Fade Away, and most have already done so). And: "Dum Spiro, Scribo" is a good motto. So you may not have heard the last of Danny42C and whatever non-PC bee buzzes most loudly in his bonnet at any one time.....D.

Smudge,

I take your point, and it is a good one, but what happens to any serviceman when his days are numbered is governed by as many variables as was his (particularly wartime, if old enough) career in Post (ie 99% Luck !) Be content with this: Danny cannot complain of the way things turned out for us; for some they may have been better; for many, worse. There are no signposts.

"Diutius est....", had me on the ropes, for my first guess was based on the similarity to "Duty", but that is barking up the wrong tree. I reckon "It's been a long, long road, we've travelled" might be nearer the mark - correct translation, please !

I'm rather surprised that no one has "twigged" the "divesting...tunic" connection. Many moons ago Chugalug and I puzzled over the exact wording of the famous example (in the Manual of Air Force Law) of Insubordination. In this, our hero:

"... Cast down his rifle, and divesting himself of his tunic said: "I'll serve no more - do with me what you will", or words to that effect....." (and any Serviceman can supply suitable words !) As I remarked at the time: "They did things with Style in those days".

All of you, be of good heart: there's still 18 months of Leeming and a few shots left in the locker yet.....D.

Getting late, Goodnight to you all, God bless, Danny.

ricardian
8th Sep 2014, 05:14
Danny42C - The retired school inspector is Gervais Phinn (http://www.gervase-phinn.com/)

camlobe
8th Sep 2014, 07:26
Danny,
It is with concern that I note your intention to cease your regular (and indeed eagerly anticipated) posts to coincide with your last day in light blue.
If anyone has the right to choose when to end their reminiscences on this forum, it is undoubtedly yourself. But like many here, I feel this would be a regrettable decision.
Please forgive this observation, for it is not meant to be disrespectful in any way.

This thread has a formal start, but no stipulated point of cessation. I put forward the view that your adult life in its entirety is a direct result of you gaining your RAF pilots wings in WWII. Therefore, my thoughts are, we are due far more than 18 months worth before you can finally write DCO.

If you feel I have overstepped the mark, I shall present myself to the guardroom immediately.

Camlobe

FantomZorbin
8th Sep 2014, 07:28
you should take a look at the Administation of the NHS, and weep

Alas, so very, very true!! FZjr became involved with NHS admin. (GP area) on being made redundant from the RAF: indolent, self-serving, gash, care-less, arrogant, ignorant are the printable comments he makes regarding the lack of organisation and unwillingness to recognise the 'real world'!
I could go on but I'm perilously close to 'thread drift'!

[Rant OFF]

smujsmith
8th Sep 2014, 08:17
Danny,

Diutius est iter itineris, roughly means "Its a long road". Once again, apologies for my Latin. You should see my English sometimes:eek:

Smudge:ok:

Chugalug2
8th Sep 2014, 08:49
Danny:-
"They did things with Style in those days".I have been trying to think of an appropriate summary for the detailed and revealing posts with which you have captivated everyone, now that you have revealed to us that your story is coming to a conclusion.

As usual you have preempted me, Danny, for nothing else could say it better. Your amazing feats of memory, whether it be to describe items of kit issued you over three quarters of a century ago, or questions asked of you more recently at interview (well over a third of a century since), your ability to express those recollections in such lucid and entertaining ways, your patience with those such as I requiring you to dot i's and cross t's that you answer as though they be the most pertinent and incisive points possible, all that is style. Style in abundance!

Thank you for it all and the more yet to come. As they say in show business, you will be a hard act to follow. We have prematurely anticipated the end of this thread before, so I for one shall not do so now, but I do hope that even now someone else is preparing to don the mantle of writer in residence when you shed it for the distinguished and revered one of scribus emeritus (you'll put me right on that one I hope!).

Ian Burgess-Barber
8th Sep 2014, 10:02
Danny

"All of you, be of good heart: there's still 18 months of Leeming and a few shots left in the locker yet.....D".

Phew! The deadline is not as close as one might have feared!

So Danny, 'Vesti la giubba' ('On with the motley').

Ian BB

Danny42C
8th Sep 2014, 21:33
ricardian,

Thanks ! My daughter has bought me one of his books, But I have Put It Somewhere and Now I Cannot Find It (happens quite a lot these days).....D

camlobe,

Overstep as much as you like (if you do so as diffidently and as courteously as you've done). We are not thin-skinned here. And if you're marched in front of me in my capacity as your Subordinate Commander, I shall dismiss the charge without hearing evidence, you'll march-out without a (any more) stain(s) on your Conduct Sheet !

As to the matter in hand: I still consider that, for we dwindling few who gained our Brevets in WWII and for the many who did so after it, it is quite acceptable that we hear their extended tales in their later Service lives until the end.

Beyond this, if they remained in the aviation business (particularly aircrew), well and good (who would wish to exclude Captain "regle" DFC of SABENA (RIP) and his hijacking at Tel Aviv ?)

But further than that, it seems to me questionable - where would you draw the line ? (here I am uncomfortably conscious of treading on our Moderator's toes - for it is their decision, and theirs alone: they've been very kind to us: it would be churlish to trade on their good nature by usurping their authority.

I take your point, but what really changed countless lives, (and sadly, shortened many of them), was war itself. How it did it varied from person to person. "We each had to fight the war we were given" is profoundly true - you didn't choose your war - it chose you. Everbody's life was upended to some extent, (Man, woman and child, Forces and civilians). No one has a claim to be heard on the sole ground that this happened to him, or that....D.

Fantom Zorbin,

"Administation", Oh, woe ! (and my C.S. Exam English paper required me to edit someone else's spelling !) Bad case of "Quis custodiet ?", I fear. (Has been corrected, of course) But then, did not even Homer nod ?

I have no idea of how the NHS conducts its affairs on a National scale, but in my neck of the woods, my experience as a patient has been uniformly excellent (on the clinical side, that is - apart from hospital food, and no one has ever been able to get a handle on that, and never will). Of course mistakes are, and will be made, for that is the inescapable human condition.

But from what I reliably hear, when it comes to the "business suit" level(£90k pa and up), the Lunatics are running the Asylum. The Administrative Tail is wagging the Operational Dog (not really unknown to us, that, is it ?). There seems to be no clear Chain of Command, no Organisational Tree; Directors, Deputy Directors, Assistant Directors, Deputy Directors and their Assistants proliferate - the list is endless. All contradicting and countermanding each other in a sort of mad kaleidescope. To paraphase Dr.Johnson and the Bear: "The wonder is not that the NHS functions badly and uneconomically, but that it functions at all". The Trust is millions in debt. But hey, the taxpayer's always there to pick up the tab, isn't he ?

Rant away, my boy. Nothing will happen, but you'll feel the better for it.....D.

Smudge,

Nothing wrong with your Latin - it's just that I'm a bit (well, a lot) rusty....D.

Chugalug,

You're much too kind, Sir, showering all these compliments on my grizzled head ! (particularly when referring to my memory). For memory plays tricks: you may relate, in good faith, every detail of some event, only to find, perhaps decades later, incontrovertible evidence that it simply couldn't have happened in the way you describe (or even at all). Conversely, the: "Carlstrom Syndrome", where all memory of some sight or event long past been totally wiped away; so that even the sight of a compelling photograh or document of that same event cannot convince you that it ever occurred.

For that reason I again put on record a disclaimer from long ago on this Thread: Nobody should consider or quote me as an Authority for anything I may have written.

A hard act to follow ? The churchyards are full of "irreplacable" people - but life goes on somehow without them !

Senex Emeritus in angulo cum aquas acerbas Liffeyarum. (might be better) .....D.


Ian BB,

It's not over till it's over ! (No flight is ever over till the chocks are under the wheels). Who knows, the best may yet be to come (?)....D.

(This has grown, like Topsey, to excessive length).

Salutations to you all, Danny.

FantomZorbin
9th Sep 2014, 08:15
Danny,
You encapsulate perfectly what FZjr is enduring!!

Danny42C
10th Sep 2014, 21:05
It was almost lunchtime and "slack water" in ATC. The pangs of hunger had driven all our flyboys over to the Mess (I was feeling a bit peckish myself), and there was "nothing on the board" to trouble Approach. All was quiet and peaceful. Too peaceful by half, I thought, as I felt the old itch between my shoulder-blades that warns of the arrow that's coming.

Surely enough, a phone trilled. It was the Emergency Service. It seemed that a lone US "Voodoo" in our area had suddenly developed a massive fuel leak, the pilot could almost see his fuel gauges moving down. He had to be got on the ground ASAP (or even sooner) before all went quiet in the engineroom and they had to bang-out. I do not know the Voodoo, but suppose he'd flamed one out. We were the nearest suitable airfield, he was only thirty miles away, they'd pointed him in our direction, would we kindly take him off their hands ?

Action Stations ! We were now all using the ARC-52, so: "put him over to our Approach", I said. He duly complied, and we exchanged salutations and I told him (callsign forgotten) what we had to offer. Tony H. on Approach had him on CA/DF at once, his heading was good and he should be in clear sight of Leeming in a few moments. We didn't need Radar, for the important question now was not "how far ?" but "how long ?"

I confirmed to Emergency that we had their man, alerted Local, they brought crash vehicles to instant readiness (for anything could happen). Our chap was quite high (15,000 ft, IIRC) and was wisely hanging onto every inch, until he was pretty well on top of us and could risk coming down. "Field in sight, 12 o'clock !"......"Over to Local on 290.2" (now why do I remember that, when I can't remember any other UHF frequency apart from 243.0 ?). Job done ! It was "in the bag" now (barring accidents).

Tony laid his headset on the desk: "Can I go up and see him come in ? " I'd been intending to do that myself (if the worst happened, the more good witnesses for the BoI, the better). On the face of it, there was absolutely no reason why he should not. We could both go up; Radar (Approach qualified, of course) could easily look after the shop on his own. But somewhere in the depths of my brain a little red light flickered (I've never known why). "You stay where you are !", I growled, rather curtly. Tony looked surprised and a bit hurt (so was I at my reaction).

No more than thirty seconds later he was back with us. They'd lost the airfield ! Five tenths blue and unlimited vis, and they'd lost the airfield ! "Where the Hell has he gone ?", I demanded of Local: "Didn't you keep an eye on him ?" ... "He was wide and high downwind for 34, went behind a bit of cloud, then he just sort of disappeared" was the unhappy reply.

Meanwhile the Voodoo was thrashing about all the over the place, they weren't far away, so our CA/DF trace was leaping about like a fish in a creel. Radar couldn't help Tony much: even with MTI out to 20 miles, the whole Vale of York was crawling with Bloggs all the time in those days, all going in different directions at different heights, and nobody looking out of the window much (hence the popular civil designation: "Death Valley").

His fuel needles were on zero now, every second counted. We couldn'd dare send him back to 243 or spend any time on identification turns. Somehow Tony lassoed him and brought him back a second time. This time he stuck to the circuit like glue - but all of us in Approach froze like statues in our positions. What next ?

A few moments later came the Happy Ending. His fuel gauges were underreading (no bad thing), the tyres were on the tarmac; they were safe - he even had enough left to come round the taxiway and onto the Servicing Platform before shutting down.

Tony and I looked at each other wordlessly, thinking of what might have happened if !'d said "yes" two minutes before, and we'd started out as soon as we'd passed him to local the first time. We'd have been half-way up the stairs and been caught flat-footed when he went adrift.

Radar would jump across into Tony's position as soon as he learned what had happened - but how long might that take ? Tony's headset was on the desk, I don't think we had a monitor on Approach. Radar would possibly not hear the Voodoo calling again until he put a monitor on frequency; as he'd nothing on his plate (as he'd think), he'd see no need to hurry.

It would not until we strolled into Local and met the horrified gaze of the Controller that we'd all realise that the Voodoo was swanning around under nobody's control. Of course Tony (or I) woud jump onto the slave D/F console at once - but it was possible that the pilot, unable to raise us on Approach, had by then come back over on Local, who'd send him back to Approach ....... And all the time the vital seconds which we were wasting would be ticking away. The result might well have been an avoidable disaster for which we would have been wholly to blame.

Now of course all this was pure supposition, it didn't happen, did it, because I'd said "No", and that was the correct answer. So that's all right then ?

Well, perhaps not quite. The tale has a twist in it - (the Title hints of it). Part II follows in a day or so.

Goodnight, all.

Danny42C.


Great Oaks from little Acorns grow.

ricardian
10th Sep 2014, 21:36
Another gripping episode Danny42C, can't wait for part 2

mikehallam
10th Sep 2014, 23:02
Dear Danny,

Just as an aside, I see from the left log-in place of this forum that your age hasn't changed from '92'.
Does that mean you've found a way of stopping the clock and if so will you eventually start getting younger ?
Certainly your writing style suggests nit's that of a youthful fellow !

Regards,

mike hallam.

Danny42C
11th Sep 2014, 08:58
Mike, m' dear chap,

Your ".....eventually you'll start getting younger....." If only !

Doesn't work like that, I fear.

Watch this space. The PPRuNe computer never sleeps. Next November 10th is my natal day (only marred in years gone by as I'd have to get my cheque book out that morning).

Thanks for the compliment, but would have you know that I take exception to your "nit's" # (some time since the old regular "nit inspection" in schools). Now the little blighters would have not much to hang on to !

Why are some people coy about their ages on PPRuNe ? It's so helpful for the rest of us to be able to put them in the "time frame" of our RAF memories.

Cheers,Danny (aet 92 at last count)

(Note #) No use correcting it now - I've copied it and put it away safe somewhere so it can be Brought Out and Used in Evidence if necessary ! ....D.

Danny42C
13th Sep 2014, 23:40
A little later, I went for lunch (I must have been a "day worker" as Supervisor). Of course, I first joined the curious crowd that now surrounded the Voodoo on the line. I'd never seen one "in the metal" before (I don't suppose many of our people had), and inspected it closely. I was shocked at the rough standard of finish (much inferior to all the other USAF aircraft I'd ever seen): it had an almost "agricultural" appearance. For all that, it was a powerful, ugly brute and (so Wiki tells me) had more than enough performance to keep up with the crowd.

A USAF Servicing Party flew in from somewhere in E. Anglia later in the afternoon, found and fixed the leak, the Voodoo was refuelled; our grateful guests departed with mutual assurances of goodwill.

It was the favourite subject of conversation at lunch in the Mess; then I strolled back to the Tower, where now the afternoon watch had taken over. Of course the incident had been related in great detail during the handover, and Tony must have voiced relief at our having escaped very possible disaster because I'd called it right when he'd asked to leave his position to see the last act in the drama. The oncoming watch were debating the lessons to be learned: the consensus being: "The thing works best when everbody sticks to his seat and does his own job". (I would not quarrel with that !)

SATCO had by now joined the "jam session" (for our Bloggses had not come back from lunch, or were still being briefed before launching into the afternoon mass assault on ATC). IIRC, SATCO had been out of the Tower before the incident, and gone back to his MQ for lunch, so he was all agog for the gory details of what had happened (and, more importantly, might have happened). And I found myself in the unusual role of the Blue Eyed Boy (for the moment, anyway).

At close of play that day I went off for a couple of weeks (leave ?), was very busy about our own future arrangements and forgot all about it. Meanwhile "Down in the Forest, Something Stirred".

Many of us remember how the much loved "Tee Emm" of wartime was reincarnated as the "Air Clues" of peace (but W/Cdr Spry is immortal). Editorial Policy had changed in one respect. "Tee Emm" carried a monthly citation for "The Most Highly Derogatory Order of the Irremovable Digit" as the wooden spoon for the most stupid flying mistake of the month.

Now, it seemed, the carrot was deemed preferable to the stick (on the basis that you got a better result from a pat on the head than from a kick up the backside).

Accordingly, in "Air Clues", there was now a monthly "Good Show" instead. It must have been "lean pickings" on the flying side that month, for W/Cdr Spry was obliged to cast his net wider - even as far as ATC. And so it was that our rescue of the Voodoo was held up for the admiration of the multitude. Accompanied, of course, by a mugshot of the recipient(s). An offical "Air Clues" photographer turned up to do the honours. Three of the four protagonists were on hand for the line up. The fourth had swanned off on leave (and you don't want to bother a chap when he's on leave, now do you ?) SATCO was on hand to fill the gap, anyway.

And so when the real hero of the moment turned up a week or so later, and the new "Air Clues" of the month hit the newsstands, I found (to my justified indignation) that "Hamlet" had been staged without the Prince, as it were. To my indignant expostulations: "What's your yelp ?", they said, "There's no money in it, anyway. What would you have us do - drag you back from leave just for the photograph ?).

I nursed a sense of grievance for quite some time. :{

Goodnight, friends,

Danny42C.


There's no justice !

PS: Tony H was a professional standard draughtsman (might even have been his profession pre-RAF), and later presented me with an excellent line drawing of a VV, which I may reproduce on Post some day if I can (a) find it and (b) learn how to to scan and paste it. (Don't hold your breath).

What follows is rather murky, put together from unguarded snatches of conversations half overheard and odd mutterings, all of it hearsay, may be entirely false and is certainly libellous. And I do not stand by a single word of it. So for what it is worth:

He'd started as a Bloggs, must have gone a long way, for it seems that he was Third Man in a Shackelton somewhere around the North Cape one stormy night. Captain and Second Dicky had gone for their humble repast, leaving Tony to mind the store (Bad Idea). What he did, or what happened, I know not, but Skipper got back just in the nick of time to save them all from a watery grave. Clearly, Tony would be expensive as a member of the TWMR.

But a perfect candidate for ATC , and so it was ordained. (Sorry, Tony, if this should ever come to your ears, for it is a poor recompense for your generosity, but it is so long ago that I hoped you would not mind)....D.

Chugalug2
14th Sep 2014, 10:01
Danny:-
I nursed a sense of grievance for quite some time. :{...and with no small measure of justification Danny! One can only hope that the article truly portrayed your lynchpin role in this saga as the photograph clearly failed to, given that your image was conspicuous by its absence.

The price of fame is indeed high, for even if one is pictured it is important that it be of one's 'best side' in order that one's fans are spared possible disappointment. So much to think of, so much to bear in mind. Perhaps the most important lesson of all though, for those caught in the fleeting spotlight of celebrity, is to be nice to the people on the way up as you will meet them again on the way down!

Anyway, better late than never, have a Well Done!

Union Jack
14th Sep 2014, 13:31
Anyway, better late than never, have a Well Done!

Hear, hear, Danny - Yet another ripping yarn from the Master (as in TWMR.....) As we used to say, "Take a make and mend ** on Sunday, but only if you're not duty!:ok:

I've been absent from place of duty for a while so I'd like to support most strongly the view that you should not even contemplate drawing stumps when you clearly have a fund of other tales to tell, and which may well tempt others yet unknown to join in.

Salaams

Jack

** Jackspeak for "having the afternoon off"

Danny42C
14th Sep 2014, 20:05
Chugalug,

Your:
"......is to be nice to the people on the way up as you will meet them again on the way down!......" hardly applied to me, as I never went 'up', there was never any 'down' to come to ! (know what you mean, though).

In Orwell's "Animal Farm", isn't there a character who "never met an animal he didn't like" ? That has been my experience. When I started in the RAF, I was told: "You'll never get rich - but you'll meet an awful lot of nice people on the way". And so it has proved....D.

Union Jack,

There is really only one more Tale of Old Leeming to come (and it is rather a nice one) before I ring down the curtain, for I cannot make bricks without straw, and the straw's run out. Yet I hope I may be allowed to use my status as "One who Gained his RAF Pilot's Brevet in WWII" to tell of the final stages of my transition to Civviedom and to air some thoughts on general aspects of my Service "career", some questions about RAF history which have never yet been answered, and of course to put in any "flashbacks" of memory, as they come to mind which may amplify my earlier stories. In a word, you ain't heard the last of me yet !

Wasn't it also known as "Counting the deckhead rivets ?" (just joking)....D.

Cheers to you both, Danny.

Union Jack
15th Sep 2014, 08:28
Wasn't it also known as "Counting the deckhead rivets ?" (just joking)....D.

Yes, indeed, and also "deckhead surveying - just not to be confused with the "golden rivet".....:=

Jack

smujsmith
16th Sep 2014, 23:18
As a young Halton Apprentice in the late 60s early 70s I was always warned never to drop my soap in the communal showers. In my innocence at a mere 16 years old, I understood that that was some sort of "professional" achievement to aspire to. Oh how my eyes have been opened by subsequent years in the service. But I never dropped that bloody soap:eek: meanwhile, back at the ranch, as an ex "tecky" if you can offer your experience Danny, what sort of relationship was there between aircrew and groundcrew during WW2? And of course subsequently. I, as a late 60s recruit saw one version, your thoughts would be interesting on that relationship, if there was one. My departed father in law experienced life as Groundcrew on 617 and 75(NZ) Squadrons during WW2, and, toward the end of his time, often alluded to the comradeship of wartime service as his "best of times". I will never forget him telling me of being ordered, with several fellow "Erks" in to the bomb bay of a 75 Sqn Stirling for an air test following an engine change. Having closed the bomb doors, locks were fitted to prevent accidental opening of the doors in flight. I'm sure you have memories of some of your own Erks in "the East".

Smudge:ok:

DFCP
17th Sep 2014, 17:24
I wonder under what circumstances an aircrew brevet once awarded could be, or was, "cancelled"?
My recollection is that reduction in rank could happen for a variety of reasons but the brevet???
Incidentally I know of a guy,who, sans brevet, was put in control of a Shackleton while the crew rested.He was on detachment from his SFTS at the time.He later got his brevet and became a Shackleton captain.
D

Fareastdriver
17th Sep 2014, 18:24
The flying brevet, when awarded, was provisional for six months. We had a pilot come out to the Far East straight out of the OCU. His record of flying training were full of reviews and minimum passes. We ignored those, and all but a few on the squadron was unaware of the facts. We thought that with a complete change in surroundings and people that he could make a go of it.

HE WAS ABSOLUTELY RUDDY USELESS.

He couldn't assimilate anything about the technical and climatic aspects of flying in the Far East as well as anything about the task in hand. We persevered, as best we could, but came the day when he had to do his official categorisation. It was a disaster and so bad that even failing it wasn't considered.

He was an immediate E cat and after a review he ended up in the Education Branch minus his wings.

Not his fault, he should never have been there in the first place, and he admitted it.

Taphappy
18th Sep 2014, 13:14
DFCP,

During WW2, aircrew who had been found guilty of LMF were subjected to the indignity of having their brevet removed as well as being reduced to the ranks if an NCO or cashiered if commissioned.
There should have been some more humane system of dealing with aircrew who had had enough and felt that they could not go on.

Fareastdriver
18th Sep 2014, 14:43
Why?

You join the game, you know the rules; if you don't like it you throw it in with your kit.

Danny42C
18th Sep 2014, 23:20
Smudge (your #6165, I quote),

Your:

"......meanwhile, back at the ranch, as an ex "tecky" if you can offer your experience Danny, what sort of relationship was there between aircrew and groundcrew during WW2? And of course subsequently. I, as a late 60s recruit saw one version, your thoughts would be interesting on that relationship, if there was one. My departed father in law experienced life
as Groundcrew on 617 and 75(NZ) Squadrons during WW2, and, toward the end of his time, often alluded to the comradeship of wartime service as his "best of times". I will never forget him telling me of being ordered, with several fellow "Erks" in to the bomb bay of a 75 Sqn Stirling for an air test following an engine change. Having closed the bomb doors, locks were fitted to prevent accidental opening of the doors in flight. I'm sure you have memories of some of your own Erks in "the East".

I'll try and answer point by point. It was excellent ! We all knew that our lives depended on their doing their jobs well; they slogged their guts out for us - often working through the night (without complaint - apart from the constant grumble which is an inseparable part of Service life - to get their "kite" on the line next morning. Then they would reluctantly "lend" "their" aircraft to the pilot for an "op" (and I'll always remember the broad grins when you brought it back into dispersal and signalled "thumbs up" to the questioning faces.

Of course, discipline still ruled, an officer was still an officer and an erk still an erk, but that said (and in particular in Burma) they worked doggedly in heat, humidity and pouring rain, with little shelter (no nice, warm, dry hangars now !) to (say) change an engine overnight. You dropped a spanner, it fell in two inches of glutinous mud. You dropped a nut - goodbye !

What made it easier was the fact that we all slept on the same charpoys, ate the same food in the various Messes, showered under the same perforated four-gallon tins and all ranks shared the same hardships (which the squaddies of the 14th Army would regard as absolute luxuries !). I cannot recall any Parades (except for Pay) in the whole of my time out there.

Things might have been different back home. You say your Dad was on 617, was it in Gibson's time ? I've read that he tended to treat his lower ranks "de haut en bas", as it were, which never goes down very well (but then a very brave man is not necessarily a "nice" one). But that is hearsay. And I would go along 100% with his remarks about the comradeship as his "best of times". Of course, that was one man's war: for others it was much different. (..."It was the Best of Times....It was the Worst of Times"...).

Bit puzzled about "locked" Bomb Doors. Were there other locks apart from the usual ones in the cockpit ? If so, could the pilot release them from there ? (no sense in flying hundreds of miles to your target and then being unable to open bomb doors). But I never had anything to do with the Stirling, it looked an ungainly thing and might well have funny things in it. (There are people reading this who know the answer).

Bit long-winded, but never mind ! Cheers, Danny.

Danny42C
19th Sep 2014, 00:28
We left Danny some time ago quietly satisfied with the outcome of his C&E interview in Leeds and awaiting a result. Now I am hazy about dates, but it must have been about two months later, in the summer of '72, that the first letter came. I was offered an appointment in London Port Inner (!), to start Monday week (!!).

This, of course, was quite out of the question. The notice was far too short (I had to give the RAF a clear calendar month's notice). And why London Port Inner ? I wasn't joining the "Waterguard", for Pete's sake !; the Interview had made it quite clear that we were recruited to carry the extra load the coming VAT would entail. (I suppose that there might have been a "Local VAT Office" to be set up inside London Port, but I doubt it).

But that was immaterial in any case. For I wrote back politely, thanking them for their offer, but gently making it clear that wild horses wouldn't drag me down anywhere near London. So that's the end of that, I thought.

Not so. A couple of weeks later they tried again. The writer hadn't looked at the file - this time it was London again, but in some more pleasant location in the West End. Again I replied courteously, thanking them again, but adding: "Dismiss from your minds any idea that I'm going anywhere near London".

That must be the last I'd hear from them - I was sure of that. Again I was wrong. A few weeks after they came back with Manchester (take it or leave it, that's our final offer !). I took it. It was no use sitting in Thirsk, saying "Bring the job to me". You have to go to it, if you want it. One good thing: they were remarkably relaxed about joining dates (Iimagine the huge Manchester LVO (Old Trafford) was only slowly building up its staff). I arranged to start there on 3rd March,'73. This would give us plenty of time to "get all our ducks in line".

Of course we would be heartbroken to leave our Thirsk house where we'd been so happy for more than four years - but that's life. And there were more immediate problems. For a start, our old Peugeot (13 years old with 150,000 on the clock - and the head had never been off !) was at the end of the road.

I would need a reliable (new) car for my new job. My lump sum would easily
cover the cost. So what would it be ? Of course, I looked first at Peugeot.

The replacement would be a 504. But the "Coupleur Jaeger" was no longer an option (although I think you could have it on the now superseded 404). I was sold on clutchless driving, so now it would have to be full automatic. They came in at £2,000. This was more than I intended to pay. I lowered my sights, the next choice was a Renault 16 TL auto at £1,500. I closed the deal, Leeming Bar Garages faithfully promised delivery before Christmas. Of course it didn't happen !

Now the ball started to roll, for the decision had been made. I put in my request for a PVR in October and negotiated a date of 31st December'72. Everything went very smoothly. PMC offered me a dining-out, but I declined. My time in the RAF was finished, it had been a good time, but now it was all over.

I'd always resolved to leave with the same ceremony as had attended my entry 31 years before (ie Nil), and now it would be so. I put my uniforms and greatcoat up for sale (but kept the raincoat), they went pretty fast as I'd always been a "stock size", keeping only my cap and gloves as a keepsake and gloves. When the end came, the only Crown properties to stick with me were: one Can, Garden, Watering; one Hoe, Garden (long gone) and one Spectacles Anti-Glare Mk VII (I still use them). And that was all. There would be plenty of time for all my farewells (and there are some Posts to come yet).

The RAF had dealt with me quite generously. My pension, leaving at age 51 after 23 years on my current Commission (for War service is not taken into account) would be 42% of my Military Salary. I've been drawing it now for 42 years (and hope for a few more years yet !) I can't complain.

So, once again I say "Goodnight, everybody".

Danny42C.

Nearly there now !

DHfan
19th Sep 2014, 01:38
3rd March 1973, an excellent date, my 21st birthday.

I spent the evening with my girlfriend - and my parents.

Not quite what I had in mind...

smujsmith
19th Sep 2014, 08:11
Danny, the locked Bomb doors. I remember when discussing it with him, many years ago that the Bomb doors on the Lancaster could be padlocked from the outside. The impression that I got was that it was done to prevent the crew inadvertently opening the bomb doors, with the "air experience " personnel in the Bomb bay. I wonder if a padlock would be sufficient? His time on 617 was after Gibson and the dams, I believe they were at Woodhall Spa at the time. He spent most of his service on 75 (NZ) Squadron at Mepal, Cambridgeshire. I had the luck to be the SNCO i/c the team that renovated the wings of PA474 many years ago, and took great delight in having him come to stay with us and having a good look around the beast, I was very pleased that he enjoyed it. I certainly always understood that he enjoyed his time in the RAF, making many friends who he maintained contact with through his life. It's good that you can confirm that the camaraderie was pretty well the same across the service, as you say, you were all in the same boat. Thanks for your post.

Smudge:ok:

Fareastdriver
19th Sep 2014, 09:21
The Vickers Valiant was an all electric aircraft. Undercarriage, flaps, airbrakes(?) and bomb doors. Even the flying controls were operated by electro-hydraulic units descended from the Frazer Nash gun turret. No problem with locking the bomb doors as one crew found out after a few days on the wazz in the USA on a Lone Ranger.

The battery had gone flat.

You couldn't charge the battery until the battery contactor was made which required battery power and they were in the bomb bay and you couldn't open the bomb bay until you had electrical power.

Eventually after a lot of crawling around underneath the AEO's position the AEO manage to connect a set of borrowed jump leads from a fire truck to the contactor's terminals. This enable the external power to connect to the aircraft and then they could open the doors.

The reason the battery had gone flat was the old chestnut common to cars. They had left the bomb bay lights on when they closed them up for the night.

Danny42C
19th Sep 2014, 21:24
Smudge,

Your:

"the Bomb doors on the Lancaster could be padlocked from the outside. The impression that I got was that it was done to prevent the crew inadvertently opening the bomb doors, with the "air experience" personnel in the Bomb bay"

fills me with horror !

It can't be true that they put the poor devils inside, in total darkness, then padlocked them in (what happened when they lost the key ?), and took to the air ? If that was Air Experience, I'd reckon it would put them off for life ! (Yet, now I come to think of it, didn't the diplomatic courier Mossie to Sweden carry passengers to Sweden - and escapees back to UK - in the bays ? I believe they chucked in a pillow and a blanket or two for them.

Cheers, Danny.

Danny42C
19th Sep 2014, 21:34
Fareastdriver,

My variation - boot light stays on after boot closed, result misery ("Micawber") - flatty batty, of course ! Why did they ever do away with the dear old starting handle ? (Always check bulb the moment you open boot - it shouldn't be hot).

Your bomb-door arrangement sounds a real masterpiece of design (how did we ever win the war ?) Left you with a real Catch-22, and no mistake ! :(

Regards, Danny,

Danny42C
19th Sep 2014, 21:49
To all (if any !) my wellwishers,

As my PM input box is banging against the stops, and I am loth to have to cull my valued PMs on file already, can I please suggest that you use, if it's not inconvenient, the email-to-PPRuNe-relay-email-to-me system (works quite well and is just as secure), in lieu ?

Thanks in anticipation, chaps. Danny42C.

smujsmith
19th Sep 2014, 22:02
Danny,

"It can't be true that they put the poor devils inside, in total darkness, then padlocked them in (what happened when they lost the key ?". I rather suspect that if it was done, it was done for the safety of those in the Bomb bay. It did strike me, years later, that loading ground personnel in the Bomb bay at all seemed "peculiar". The Lancaster had plenty of room for a couple of ground crew bods to enjoy the pre op air test, within the fuselage. However, I can only recount what I was told, and have no way of clarifying what he told me. Perhaps my father in law was a bit of a "wind up merchant", he certainly hooked me if that was the case.

Smudge:ok: (as mystified as you)

thing
19th Sep 2014, 22:24
I rarely post on this thread but have read every single word on it. Danny, at 92 you deserve a rest; it has been an absolute pleasure reading your posts, I wish you well and good health. It has been a privilege and an honour to have you here although I'm sure you would be the first to play that down. God bless you sir.

Danny42C
20th Sep 2014, 00:32
Smudge, There is one thing (I don't know the Lanc). Is there some access from the inner crew space into the bomb bay ? (IIRC, in the B-24 Liberator there was a walkway through the bomb bay from fore to aft compartments - but I then I don't know the Lib. either).

As for the danger of a pilot accidentally opening the bomb doors and jettisoning the pax: in the first place no pilot has any need to even think of opening the doors in flight unless "with malice aforethought" (ie he has bombs on the racks which he intends to drop on someone).

And in the second it would have to be a pilot of unprecedented stupidity to do this (except in the case of losing one or more engines), when the thing cannot maintain height, you must "lighten ship" in every way possible. Pity about the pax in the bay (I take it they have no 'chutes), but if you don't shed them you'll all die anyway !

I've told the story of the old style ("Dragon Rapide") Dominie, one failed, the pax were a parachute display team, they readily agreed to "step outside" and he got it down on one. (True).

"It was done for the safety of those in the bomb bay" ! Your late father-in-law was pulling your...leg ! (MINE, TOO).

Danny.

PS: OF COURSE THAT'S IT ! - WHY HAVE WE BEEN WASTING ALL THIS TIME ON IT ? - IT'S JUST ANOTHER "GOLDEN RIVET" OR "SHIP'S WHE...EEEELS !"

(Union Jack can explain, I'm sure). D. :*

mmitch
20th Sep 2014, 10:08
Perhaps the bomb bay had air and ground crews luggage and tools for moving to another base? The bomb aimer would be the most unpopular member of the crew if he fiddled with his switches!
mmitch.

Chugalug2
20th Sep 2014, 11:02
Danny,

An interesting choice of car to transport you safely into the uncertain world of civilian life. Given that your beloved Peugeot 504 avec Coupleur Jaeger could not be replaced in kind, your move to a rival manufacturer (albeit still French) displays an open mindedness not always present in decisions concerning vehicle purchase.

Wikki is very positive in its description of the Renault 16, including this fulsome endorsement attributed to a certain Mr Stirling Moss:-
"There is no doubt that the Renault 16 is the most intelligently engineered automobile I have ever encountered and I think that each British motorcar manufacturer would do well to purchase one just to see how it is put together"Renault 16 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_16)

and here it is in all its glory:-

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Renault_16_TS_2012_01.JPG/280px-Renault_16_TS_2012_01.JPG

Wander00
20th Sep 2014, 12:20
Didn't half roll on corners though, but VERY comfortable seats. Brilliant concept - Wikipedia mentions the Maxi as a "successor to the principles of the R16, but Maxi did not come close, and THAT gear change!


still see R16s (and R4s, 2CVs, Citroen DSs, etc) on the road in France

Fareastdriver
20th Sep 2014, 13:28
Somebody was telling me a story about the manufacture of those. During the assembly on a moving production line two operatives had eight seconds to connect all the electrics in the engine compartment. There were each on a swinging stool either side and they would whirl in, connect everything and then whirl out. There then would be a pause before the next car came along.
Every thirty minutes two others would come along and take over.

Why they didn't arrange it so that they moved along with the line defeats me.

Danny42C
20th Sep 2014, 16:11
thing,

You are far too kind, Sir ! This has been my enjoyable hobby these past two years: if it has also given interest and pleasure to you and others, I am grateful for that and accept it as a bonus, (always conscious of the fact that I "stand on the shoulders of Giants !") - cliff, regle, Fred and all the other pioneers of this incomparable Thread.

Thank you again, God bless, Danny.

PS: You wouldn't have bought or rented your property from one Anthony Aloysius Hancock, by any chance ? D.:ok:

Warmtoast
20th Sep 2014, 16:47
Wandered00


"Wikipedia mentions the Maxi as a "successor to the principles of the R16, but Maxi did not come close, and THAT gear change!"


Some Maxi's had gearbox problems, but not ours. One feature I appreciated was the "Overdrive 5th Gear" a feature that wasn't to become common until later, this made the car brilliantly quiet (and economical) when cruising the Autobahns. Plus the back seat folded down to make a double bed - kids loved it!


My BFG registered Maxi c. 1973 near the San Bernardino pass in Switzerland on the way to Italy.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/MAXI_zps2c3295b7.jpg

Wander00
20th Sep 2014, 18:26
WT - we had a Maxi at work with the cable operated (sometimes) gearbox. Not a pleasant experience!

gayford
20th Sep 2014, 18:36
I also drove R16s, the first was a manual and the second, purchased at Leeming Bar when I was in the tower at Leeming, was an automatic one; great cars.

Danny42C
20th Sep 2014, 23:08
mmitch,

The bomb bay was useful for all sorts of things (the long members of Danny's air-transportable charpoy for example), and the (inadvertent) squashing of one unfortunate Major's uniform case (compassionate lift (Chittagong to Calcutta). But as our erks were loading it with engine runnihg (so 2000 lb/sq.in in the system) and were pushing it in with sticks (for fear of what that could do to an arm), it was hard luck when the jaws closed with it trapped between them. (Should've insured his kit, anyway).

(Oh, and carrying 2x500lb bombs from time to time).

Danny.

Danny42C
20th Sep 2014, 23:34
Wander00,

Went round all right, though. All the French cars of that era did the same. Nice soft suspension (torsion bars all round). Not like present car (can feel matchstick on road if I go over it).

Never drove a Maxi, but my daughter had an 1100 at one time. Quelle horreur ! Gearstick like stick of liquorice ! Hopped about like a pogo-stick (car, that is). She got a Micra after it, nice little car.

À votre santé, Monsieur, Danny.

Danny42C
20th Sep 2014, 23:52
Chugalug,

Sadly, a 504 auto (@ £2000) was too pricey (UK prices now !) for me. Looked briefly at an almost-new one (year old) @ £1500. Rust was forming at the bottom of the sills !

I remember Moss's review of the 16. IIRC, he also said (of the seats): "I defy anyone to be uncomfortable in this car". Another critic wrote of the 16 auto: "A small Rolls-Royce for half the price".

It was (AFAIK) the first hatchback (and the best I've known). The engineering concept was brilliant. Pity I got a lundi-morning or a vendredi-afternoon car from Billancourt. I suppose they said: "We should've chucked it in the Seine, really. But it's going to Perfide Albion isn't it ? Magnifique, ça ! Bonne Chance, Rosbif !"

So I got Boneparte's Revenge. I'll say no more (it is not nice to see grown men weep). Lovely photo, "Rogue" car. :(

Cheers, Danny

Danny42C
21st Sep 2014, 00:00
gayford,

What years were you in ATC at Leeming ? (my times were summer '67 to end '72).

Yes, I know, I know. Most were great cars: it was just my luck !

Danny.

blind pew
21st Sep 2014, 11:47
Danny in belated response to your question re the Spey and noise in the 70s. It didn't power the noisiest subsonic aircraft at that time but it probably caused the most disruption although not with the BAC 1-11 but with the three in the Trident 1.
Whilst the 1-11 had a better climb rate than the Trident with all engines operating it was the lack of understanding of perceived decibels, minimum Noise Routings and flying procedures that caused the most disruption.
I fortunately didn't fly the original Trident 1C which was quickly re-engined because it couldn't get airborne at MTOW from Heathrow on a summer's day. The re-engined one was hardly any better, was aptly named the "Gripper" as in "Ground Gripper" and was rumoured to get airborne because of the curvature of the earth.
The NAR at LHR were avoiding the built up areas but paid no attention to the environmental noise levels.
I lived on the edge of the Slough and Maidenhead built up areas, on the Burnham/Taplow boundary..... Open spaces and just where a heavy Trident 1 would be setting climb power on a Daventry departure. The windows would shake, waves were set up in wine glasses and conversation was impossible.

It was the only aircraft that disturbed us as BEA management had a dangerous and ridiculous flying procedure.
At beginning of roll we started stop watches...and between 65 and 90 seconds we retracted trailing edge flaps and pulled back the levers to 70% thrust.
With the result that we staggered along on the back side of the drag curve spreading slightly less DBs far and wide.
At 3000ft we set climb power...around Crawfords biscuit factory on the Maidenhead road and just down the road from my semi. We then flew nearly level, at 225 knots retracted the droop and accelerated to climb speed.

If we had left the flaps at TO, set climb power, routed along the M4/A4, over Slough and it's industrial estates then less people would have been exposed to the noise nuisance and a Trident would have probably never been parked in a field at Staines!

Molemot
21st Sep 2014, 12:36
I grew up in Kew, under the Heathrow approach. We lived at just that point on the approach where the Tridents would lower the undercarriage...and the autothrottle would compensate for the added drag...and we got the benefit of the added noise! My neighbour and school chum went off to Hamble and thence to BEA and Tridents....a few years later I was at Linton on Ouse and JPs.

nimbev
21st Sep 2014, 13:02
a lundi-morning or a vendredi-afternoon car from BillancourtDanny, I must have had the car after yours off the production line! According to 'Which' magazine (never trusted them since) and motoring journalists, the R16 was the best thing since sliced bread. Mine was a total load of rubbish. Cost me a fortune in repairs and had to be scrapped prematurely due to rust.

Fareastdriver
21st Sep 2014, 14:36
For using the curvature of the Earth to assist a take off you can't beat the old TU 154. They've all gone now but in the Nineties there were a lot flying the routes in China. The only time I flew in one, apart from the almost Victorian décor, was half the overhead locker fronts were missing; something I was used to as it was the same on YAK 40s, no spares.

At Wenzhou our patch was close to the single runway turning area. A 154's undercarriage mainwheels were three wheels in tandem and the screeching and howling from the tyres as they turned it coupled with the visible twisting of the undercarriage bogies was some thing to be experienced.

Noise abatement? forget it; Clean Air Act? forget it; there would be a cloud of decibels and smoke trundling down the runway and when you thought disaster was certain the wings would claw sufficient lift to get it off the ground. Immediate altitude was obtained by raising the undercarriage and the whole show would then disappear behind the trees to reappear in the distant horizon leaving behind a trail of asphyxiated pigs.

They finished at the end of the last century. The last major accident was when one had an autopilot rectification and was released to service without a functional check. The rudder and ailerons actuators had been cross coupled so the aircraft rolled into the ground immediately after take off taking a hundred or so with it. Murphy's Law was widespread in Soviet designed aircraft and after that Chinese aviation went over to Western products. I believe China North West was the last to use them and at Tianjin airport I could see half-a-dozen ex Aeroflot examples that were being used as Xmas trees.

Lots of rumours about Chinese aviation in the eighties and nineties; none of them true. If an aircraft crashed and there were no foreigners on board they just bulldozed over the hole. If an air trafficker caused an accident they would take him round to the back of the tower and shoot him.

At the turn of the century CAAC read the Riot Act to all the Chinese airlines and things improved beyond recognition. Now Chinese Aviation is amongst the safest in the world and I am proud that I was part of that transformation.

blind pew
21st Sep 2014, 16:41
Molemot....
Ahhh the good old stabilised approach ...from ten miles out.
It was erroneously believed in 1972 that you had to have everything hanging out by 3000ft and at final approach speed to safely land a swept wing jet by BEA.
There was an infamous chief who slammed one in on a flight with some prestegious guests....himself...of greek ancestry ...slammed open the cockpit door and was preported to say "if you are looking for your Trident it's up my ar@e".
Later in my career I was taught to land a jet from an approach which was stabilised at 300ft and not deploy the oxygen masks ;-)

MPN11
21st Sep 2014, 17:58
Other types than the Trident dropped gear and flaps abeam Richmond Green, as I could see (and hear) clearly from my bedroom window overlooking Old Deer Park. After a few years I stopped noticing.

Then I had the JPs at Manby doing circuits over the Mess whilst I was trying to sleep after [late] night flying at Strubby. I have disliked JPs ever since ��

26er
21st Sep 2014, 20:43
I flew a 1-11 475 freighter which was on contract to DHL flying parcels at night - approx. 0330 local take off - from Brussels to Stockholm. Usually departures were from 25R with a climbing right turn to head off on as straight a track as possible to Sweden. Anything up to 40 aircraft would depart in the period 0300 - 0500 but most were turboprops and our two RR Speys were the noisiest of all. The good burghers of Brussels had an early wakeup call and were not amused. However one night for some reason there was a delay in departures from the 25 holding point and our crew, as they left the ramp requested 07 for departure which was approved. A couple of days later it came to light that a special portable noise monitoring device had been positioned on our normal departure route to catch us out and purely by chance we had foiled their evil plan. We heard no more noise complaints!

DFCP
21st Sep 2014, 20:50
I note recent mention of 617.
March 1945 after Grading School I was sent on detachment to Woodhall Spa.This was nomal due to the surfeit of trained aircrew and the resulting "constipation" of the training system.
I recall nothing of what work I did there . Some on these detachments were used as helpers in bomb dumps. I do have recollection though of Lancasters arriving back and landing after an aborted raid ,with their Grand Slams very prominent due to removal of the bomb bay doors.
I did manage to get one passenger flight in a Lancaster on a practice bomb drop in The Wash.I amused myself in tbe mid upper turret until the Sqdn Leader captain voiced a complaint.My swinging of the turret---airflow disturbance?---according to him had adversely affected his bombing accuracy
When we landed I did not stick around to discuss!
Certainly in Canada most of the training stations had been gradually closed before VJ day.In the US I believe it was similar or perhaps worse since I have read of either in 44 or early 45 a group in Florida being addressed by a visiting senior officer and their training ceased at that time.Again I think this all relates to Churchill being upset at the number of surplus aircrew around late 1944.
By October 45 Bircham Newton and Docking were replete with ex u/t, sfrom Canada, the US and Rhodesia.
D

Ian Burgess-Barber
22nd Sep 2014, 14:47
DFCP "In the US I believe it was similar or perhaps worse since I have read of either in 44 or early 45 a group in Florida being addressed by a visiting senior officer and their training ceased at that time".

Certainly that was the case at 5 BFTS in Florida. Course 25 arrived at Riddle Field on April 3rd 1945. Course 26 arrived June 19th. Course 24, in training since January 22nd '45 were permitted to graduate as scheduled, on August 25th 1945, but the 201 cadets of Course 25 and 26 were declared "incomplete" in the 5 BFTS log. Whilst awaiting orders for reassignment they were visited in late July by John Bennett of the British Ministry of Labour who addressed the uneasy cadets on "Your Release and Resettlement", and offered them the services of his agency on the opportunities and options open to former RAF personnel. One of the RAF Officers looking on at the assembled 201 "incomplete" unfortunates is quoted as saying "My, my, now you are redundant. What in the world will we do with you?"

Ian BB

Wander00
22nd Sep 2014, 14:59
Danny - aah, the BMC 1100 - quelle domage! But wanted to take the opportunity to thank you for your fascinating contributions to this thread. I have learned much. W

Danny42C
22nd Sep 2014, 16:23
blind pew,

Your:
"......and a Trident would have probably never been parked in a field at Staines!...." no doubt refers to the unfortunate Captain Key's unscheduled arrival there (helicopter fashion) shortly after take-off from LHR in '72.

Our QFIs at Leeming were not sympathetic when the sad news first hit the headlines.

"He's not paid £10,000 a year (about 3 times their pay) to stall the aeroplane" was the common reaction at the time. Later, of course, we learned of the extenuating circumstances. IIRC, his crew were not very helpful, and the Third Officer was a drag on the rope. Still: "de mortuis nil nisi bonum" must apply.

I've no knowlege of the workings of commercial aviation, but I'm horrified that the rules under which you had to operate seemed to value the comfort of the townsfolk below ahead of the safety of the crews and passengers in the air. It's easy to be critical when you've never been affected, but it seems to me that LHR had been there for a quarter century; almost all the householders had moved in since then with full knowledge that LHR was there and would be noisy ('ware incoming !)

I thought that one of the selling points of the fanjet was supposed to be that it was much quieter (from the ground). Certainly that applied to the Tristar as against the 707 (say), IMHO.

Danny.

Reader123
22nd Sep 2014, 16:55
"Lots of rumours about Chinese aviation in the eighties and nineties; none of them true."

Really...? My father flew on a Chinese airliner in the early 1980s. There were two more passengers than seats, which wasn't a problem as they found a couple of deck chairs for them to sit in. My father having served during the war had doubtless seen and experienced less comfortable and safe air transport, but did raise his eyebrows when said passengers were offered seat belts to secure them to their deck chairs...

Danny I know you're not going anywhere, but just to add my noise to the legion of voices thanking you for your most entertaining stories. I am very disappointed that you will not be relating your VAT employment in weekly episodes. As a piece of history "I joined HMC&E and was one of the first VAT inspectors" is probably as good a tale as - and certainly a less-oft-told one than - "My service in WW2." I implore you to continue as you are a most skilled raconteur.

VAT's not enough yet... (Or, maybe, there's another 20% of this story to go...)

binbrook
22nd Sep 2014, 19:17
Dear Danny

Bombdoors did just occasionally open themselves. Nicely settled in the climb in a Canberra (250kt max at the time to offer the chance of overpowering any runaway elevator trim) we shuddered then it stopped, shuddered again, stopped, and so on. Eventually out of the corner of my eye I saw that the B/D dollseye was alternating black/white/black to tell me that the doors were opening and closing without my help.

The cause turned out to be a short in the Master Jettison switch, which some genius had positioned almost directly under the DV window, which of course let in rainwater if it was not firmly shut on the ground. Fortunately the load was the usual 8 x 25lb, which could not be jettisoned. If it had been the 6 x 1000lb which constituted the Heavy Load we had to carry once in a while the good burghers of Nottingham would presumably have collected the lot.

And like many others may I say "Thank you".

Reader123
23rd Sep 2014, 16:45
"Fortunately the load was the usual 8 x 25lb,"

The Camel carried 4 x 20lb Cooper bombs; so much for progress!

Fareastdriver
23rd Sep 2014, 19:33
The mighty V force would have a trip carrying a 10,000lb inert bomb to simulate the instant sunshine of the time. This consisted of a big tin tube filled with concrete.

On this occasion there was a load thump in the back of the aircraft and the bomb aimer, checking his bombing equipment, realised that the inert had released itself and was sitting the bomb bay doors.

Not wishing to dig a big hole in the UK they were instructed to proceed to Wainfleet range and release it by opening the doors. The barge that was to be the target was identified on the NBS radar and in they came.

The bomb aimer had no idea of the ballistic characteristics of an inert; it was not something they published at the time, so he selected a bomb type 0, i.e. a perfect bomb.

He had the cross hairs on the target and with two minutes to go the bombing computer opened the doors.

They never did find out where it landed.

taxydual
23rd Sep 2014, 20:23
They never did find out where it landed.



It wasn't The Prussian Queen pub by any chance?

Ah,that was a stick of 25lb'ers

Iconic Aircraft Aviation Forum ? View topic - The bombing of the Prussian Queen pub 1952 (http://www.iconicaircraft.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=2575)

A 10,000lb'er would certainly been 'last orders, please'.

Danny42C
23rd Sep 2014, 22:40
nimbev,

Mine was never right from the beginning. Even during the six (!) months warranty that was all you got in those days, I was complaining about being down on power: they palmed me off with "It's still a bit tight, sir - after a couple of thousand miles more it'll be all right !

Of course it wasn't, but functioned well enough with minor ailments (the autobox had a total-loss oil system, I put the oil in the top and it leaked out at the bottom) and they could never fix even that.

Up to around 70,000, then the engine troubles began among clouds of steam. I will not bore you with the harrowing story: suffice to say that it would have been cheaper in the end for me to have thrown the engine out and bought a new one (I don't think you could get exchange reconditioned Renault ones as you could with Ford and others then). The thing was off the road for three months in a bad winter, when they at last got the (Renault) spares, they had to go to a local machine shop before they'd fit the car (all on our bill, of course).

Eventually they got it back on the road again ; things weren't too bad till 140,000, then timing chain bust (by great good fortune, outside the shops in our local village, right opposite our garage). Then the full beauty of the back-to-front power plant idea was revealed - you had to lift the whole "lump" out to get at the chain ! As this would cost more than the car (11 years old) was worth, and the rot had got a good hold, anyway, it went free against the cost of towing to a scrapyard.

I'm a glutton for punishment. After it we ran two other (2/h) Renaults - a 5 (the best of the superminis of its day) and an 18 Estate (both fine cars). To be fair, those were the times when Red Robbo ruled our industry: British cars were a byword for unreliability, too.

Danny.

Danny42C
23rd Sep 2014, 22:50
Fareastdriver ,

So Murphy still ruled as late as your day ! Even in the Avro 504s, IIRC, they'd tumbled to that and had different sized turnbuckles to join control cable sections.

Your:

".... and when you thought disaster was certain the wings would claw sufficient lift to get it off the ground...." (the universal experience of all of us old NervousSLFs who once sat in the 'Seat of the Mighty', but now must cringe far back in Steerage on the rare occasions we can scrape the cash together to do so).

Now, seriously, you must have enough Chinese flying stories to keep our Thread going for a twelvemonth. Now give, please ! (I'm sure I speak for all, don't I, chaps ?)

Danny.

Danny42C
23rd Sep 2014, 22:57
Wander00,

Thank you for your kind words ! (but I've learned more from our Thread than ever I put into it).

"Quelle dommage" all right ! But in all fairness it had been my daughter's first car - and she'd bought it from another girl: it'd been her first car. The poor (old) thing had some excuse, I suppose (Lord knows what the mileage was - probably "clocked" anyway).

Went for scrap.

Danny.

Danny42C
23rd Sep 2014, 23:11
Ian BB,

IIRC, the Arnold (US Army Air Corps) Scheme ended ca Feb '43. Their Schools returned to the training of US Cadets (I suppose that enough BFTS had been opened by then) to cover the RAF requirement.

The statistcs are appalling. We sent a total of 7885 RAF trainees out and got 4165 pilots back, so 3550 "losses" (55%). The training "washouts" were 3392 (43%). This has been a mystery to this day.

A quick answer might be "The US training was superior to the RAF's" (and indeed regle [RIP] described it as "the finest flying training in the world". But then, why didn't that show up at the OTU stage ? No one (AFAIK) at the time ever noticed any difference in the "finished product" from the graduates of the Arnold Schools compared with those from the BFTS and Empire Flying Training Schemes. When you break it down into Courses, the mystery deepens:

Strange figures from Arnold wastages (nothing to do with BFTS)
--------------------------------------------------------------

Overall Losses* occurred (roughly - as a % of all Intakes): At Primary 60%; at Basic 12%; at Advanced 4%; (Retained as Instructors 13%); others (mostly killed); 2%.

Survivors By Course (% of Intake):
---------------------------------

42A:55;
42B:59;
42C:64; (my Course)
42D:61. (this Course would graduate about 1st April - five weeks after me - work back six months, they must've started about beginning October '41. I started flying on 2 September, I must have got there a week before - it fits perfectly).


Average survivor rate (Courses 42A-D) 60%, therefore all losses* 40%.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Survivors By Course (% of Intake):
---------------------------------

42E:99.6;
42F:99.2;
42G:98.5;
42H:98.7;
42I:99.6;
(No record of 42J, seemingly ?).
42K:97.2;
43A:97.3;
43B:97.1; END. (would be about Feb, '43)

Authority:

(The Official Website of - Arnold Scheme)
www.arnold-scheme.org/The%20Arnold%20Register.htm?Cached (http://www.arnold-scheme.org/The%20Arnold%20Register.htm?Cached)

Stats & Facts
--------------

Total RAF Intake 7885
RAF cadets Eliminated at:
Acclimatization Centres 9
Primary Schools 2687
Basic Schools 526
Advanced Schools 170
Cadets Killed in Training 158
(Grand Total 3550 45%) (Washout 3392 43%)

Highest Rank achieved by RAF Graduate: Marshall (sic) of the Royal Air Force.
Highest British Decoration Awarded: Victoria Cross.

Average survivor rate (Courses 42E-43B) 98.4%, therefore all losses* 1.6%. (This, I was told later, about matched the BFTS experience. Subsequent reports on this Thread quote much higher figures for BFTS, up to 30% ?????).

* "Losses" would include (mainly) "Washouts" for all reasons, plus a few (sadly) killed.

Whether the 577 "Creamed Off" Instructors were included (as we didn't get them back - at least not until much later - in UK), I do not know.

WHAT HAPPENED IN THE ARNOLD SCHOOLS AT THE BEGINNING OF OCTOBER '41 - TWO MONTHS BEFORE PEARL HARBOR ? :confused:

Danny

Danny42C
23rd Sep 2014, 23:18
Binbrook,

First, thank you for your appreciation of my efforts ! It was never my problem, my old Vengeance was seven tons of parasite drag anyway and flew the same with doors open or shut. Only thing was, there was the heck of a draught up from the "mailbox" on thefloor, as this blew all the dust up, it was wise to put goggles on before opening !

I'm a bit puzzled by your remark about the good folk of Nottingham being in peril of live or 'safe' bombs raining down on them. Surely you had to select which first, and then press the button, before anything could happpen. The mere fact of your opening a bomb doors (or it happening spontaneously) couldn't trigger a drop (or could it ?)

Cheers, Danny.

Danny42C
23rd Sep 2014, 23:25
Reader123,

Thanks for the compliments (but I suppose I owe it to my ancestry that I seem to have been endowed with the "gift of the gab" !). But to take your point, my view is that it's fine for people who carried on in the RAF or civil aviation after war service to continue on the Thread after finally taking uniform off, but to carry on in it into a future tale of some humdrum civil job is simply "not on" (and I would expect the Mods to stamp on it).

That is not to say that I may not pop in from time to time with titbits which have amused me, but there will be no consecutive story of my coming trials and tribulations in C&E.

And you've guessed correctly - it's not all over yet.

Cheers, Danny.

kookabat
24th Sep 2014, 02:23
Mostly off-topic, but the talk of 'curvature of the earth' take-offs reminded me of this one, filmed in Canberra a few years ago... one mild naughty word (you'll see why):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyvY2GK9B3M

:eek:

Hempy
24th Sep 2014, 07:23
Danny,

I'm not sure if this partly answers or not, but there is an e.book on the Arnold Scheme on Google Books "The Arnold Scheme: British Pilots, the American South, and the Allies By Gilbert Sumter Guinn".

There was indeed Course 42J, it included C.J Barton VC, who was the schemes only Victoria Cross. It says, amongst other things, a couple of interesting things about the pass rate of the different courses.

Chapter: The Final Six RAF Classes in Georgia

When students of the class (42J) began to fly, Spring was in full bloom and it was good to be alive. For instructors and cadets alike, manoeuvring a Stearman PT-17 with its open cockpit over miles of fields and woods and swamps in the bright southwest Georgia skies was an exhilarating experience.
Page 286

Unlike earlier classes, many members of Course SE-42-K had completed in excess of 30 hours flying in flight grading courses at scattered elementary flying training schools (EFTSs) in the United Kingdom. As a result, their progress in primary flying training was much more rapild than earlier classes, and their failure rate much lower.
Page 287

The Arnold Scheme: British Pilots, the American South, and the Allies ... - Gilbert Sumter Guinn - Google Books (http://books.google.com.au/books?id=m6IA84_UHsQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+Arnold+Scheme:+British+Pilots,+the+American+South,+an d+the+Allies+...++By+Gilbert+Sumter+Guinn&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lXAiVPGKJo-48gWNsIDQCQ&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA)

blind pew
24th Sep 2014, 08:04
Ah Danny
When has a good old British public inquiry done anything in the way of finding the truth and not just protecting the establishment?
Thanks to yourself, Reggie and Cliff, I have understood some of the pitfalls of the RAF training machine which strangely has just run full circle today. The two junior pilots (and the guy on the jump seat) at Staines were what became known in UK civil aviation terms as "Hamble Mafia". Incredibly stringent selection and 1/3 chopped to produce a generation of Uber Mensch.
Unfortunately it would take a couple of decades to change the old attitudes.
Staines had some of it's origins in the Munich disaster -1958 - where BEA management decided that two recent take off accidents were no concern of their pilots - both were slush covered runways. Incidentally I occasionally commandeered a vehicle to inspect the runway myself if I wasn't convinced of the validity of runway reports (1990s).
The Trident had three reported premature slat retraction and stick shake/push in it's recent history before the Staines accident. The root cause was cowboy lack of adherence to our noise abatement procedures. They were deemed "one offs" and not passed on. We did not have a stick push procedure in our manuals and Keighley and myself were taught to "dump the system" if the push triggers "because it's always faulty".
Some of this came out at the inquiry - mainly from George Childs and "Cat's eyes Cunningham"...the first being an astute line captain concerned with what we had been taught; the second was the Trident's test pilot. Child's testimony exposed "corporate amnesia" and he later resigned as his life became "untenable" in BEA.
Six months before the accident I flew with "slow" Jerry Keighley (P2) from Ostende to Hamble. The rest of our training fleet was grounded due to a virulent cold front across eastern england. I was sitting behind him in the D55 Baron when we hit moderate turbulence - he suggested that he slowed back to Turb. speed but our instructor - Pat Courtney (he left a wingtip on a tree stump during a strafing attack whilst flying a Hurri-bomber) said "no - you only have to worry when the eyeballs bounce and you can't read the instrument panel".
About a minute later we must have hit the cell and Pat wrenched the throttles back, I thought "sh@t I'm going to die", the guy next to me screamed (he's currentlly flying the 787) and Jerry continued flying along the airway through the cell without any problems.
The blame game destroyed his family - His father was shot down during the Battle of Britain whilst on a lone, daylight raid on Berlin in a Whitney. Churchill had decided that if he bombed Berlin the Luftwaffe would take some of their resources from the Pas de Calais and give fighter command a break. As you know it led to the Blitz. Bill Keighley crashed on Texel- spent the next four years in Stalag luft drei and then participated in the death march.
For those of you who didn't live through the 70's it was a time of industrial upheaval - strikes - three day weeks - electricity cuts -IRA bombings - shortages and hoarding not forgetting interest rates of 18%. We were badly paid but worse was the bully boy attitude and the old "if you want a command Sonny".
A group of pilots had been sacked, others were threatened including Jerry's flat mate's captain a few days before his crash - his flat mate had selected Land Flap instead of Flap Up at the cutback point.
A whole group of captains had written to the Board of Trade to get them to do something before we crashed yet another aircraft.
So if someone said jump to me I jumped...and Key, no doubt, flew non standard procedures and probably gave Jerry an order than he misunderstood - his manipulation was never spotted because we had a "quaint" procedure that EVERYONE wrote down a clearance at the SAME time - with no one minding the shop.
Sadly National Geographic recently made a documentary which imho has very little to do with the truth - and that's another story.
I had a great career and am still flying - albeit paragliders - but I couldn't wait to leave BEA which I did - they crashed 8 aircraft in the 6 years I flew for them and if the inquiry had been balanced maybe some of them wouldn't have happened - most were down to the training department - just like the RAF and Meteors, Lancasters, etc.

ancientaviator62
24th Sep 2014, 08:46
blind pew,
a sobering tale indeed. When we got the new C130K in RAF service shutting down an engine for 'training' at a critical point was still a part of the deal. It took several crashes for an outbreak of common sense to appear. Of course we did not have the benefit of a 'black box' or a CVR to help the investigators, no doubt due to 'costs'.

Fareastdriver
24th Sep 2014, 10:09
My father flew on a Chinese airliner in the early 1980s. There were two more passengers than seats, which wasn't a problem as they found a couple of deck chairs for them to sit in.

Trip from Shanghai to Wuhan in 1998. Those days if you were flying from Shanghai in the morning you had to book into a hotel by the airport the night before because you couldn't get from the centre of Shanghai in time. Two heavies accompanied me to the check-in and they bulldozed me through the crowd to the front. No seat selection, I got a boarding number, 11, similar to some present low cost airlines.

The boarding of the 727-100 was straightforward enough and I found myself a seat by a window underneath the fin attachment points. I worked on the basis that if we didn't hit something too hard the deceleration rate plus the fifty or so cushions in front of me would make it survivable. Both the seat belt and the ashtray were in place and the lights for them, in Spanish, worked.

We got airborne and as we settled in the cruise the overhead CRTs pivoted down from the ceiling and the flight's entertainment came on.

It was Karaoke.

You could hear the music through the headphones but also the person singing it. Removing the headphones meant that you could only hear the singing which was even worse. I was scrabbling around trying to find some ear defenders, it would have been grossly impolite to stick one's fingers in your ears, but with no success.

I cowered into the corner and resigned myself to the torture. Eventually it all went quiet apart from the air hostess wandering up and down calling 'She yi?'

She yi, I thought, that's eleven in Chinese so I held up my boarding ticket. She then came over and thrust the microphone into my face. I shook my head, "Mayo," (No nothing) I said and immediately about six Chinese jumped on me trying to get hold of my ticket.

At that time Wuhan airport was a joint military/civil airport in the middle of town. Kai Tak was quite spectacular dodging the concrete on the final turn to the runway but Wuhan had it in Spades. Both wingtips were clipping the balconies and at the last moment they retreated to be replaced by the threshold lined with twin engine Xian Y7s in various states of disrepair. The runway was built from large square concrete pourings with tar inlays at the joints and was incredibly noisy and bumpy. I thought for a moment the vibration had shaken the overheads open but it was the passengers starting to retrieve their baggage before the engines' reversing petals had closed.

After disembarking I was escorted the rear of the aircraft where they were unloading the baggage so that I could identify mine. I watched as the baggage was tossed out of the door onto the ground ten feet below and when I saw mine poised I shouted and it was gently lowered down.

I went Wuhan a couple of years later when the Yangtze flooded for the last time. To see rows of PLA soldiers in three ranks, chest deep in water, arms locked together, acting as a human dam to stem the flow of the floodwater through a breach in the dykes so that the sandbags being thrown in could get a grip has left an impression on me for ever.

blind pew
24th Sep 2014, 12:11
ancientaviator....the good old critical engine failure on TO balls up...
BEA in my time belatedly got into charters...in the form of Airtours. My father had been in partnership with a hotel owner during the 60s in Westcliff on sea supplying Channel Airways with in flight meals ;) (Ham and Colmans mustard sandwiches wrapped in cellophane made up in Eddie Troppers hotel kitchen) ....until dad took a short cut under the wing at Rochford airport and got his bedford van stuck. Channel had started the all inclusive holiday flights in Britain.
BEA bought around 10 surplus American 707s.....they didn't ask for BOACs expertise as they knew better.
A new conversion FO ex vanguards who hadn't flown for a year was given a critical failure which was over done by the training captain and when things started going wrong he throttled back the two engines on the other wing and added thrust on the throttled back engine - it resulted in a smoking mess on the end of the runway at Prestwick....some of the old guys still swear blind that BEA had discovered VMCA which had been missed by Boeing, BOAC and everyone who operated the 707.
Even better they crashed one in Heraklion...bent all pylons including shearing bolts on one and bent the wings...rather than ask BOAC they used their own "expertise" and illegally authorized the return flight - with a hundred odd souls on board.
Aircraft condemned by Boeing.

Fareast driver......interesting .....BOAC was threatened with being banned from Kai Tak after yet another Airtours 707 missed the turn on the checker board approach and nearly skewered a block of flats....the Hong Kong government figured that the Corporations communicated and were similarly professional - both being funded by the British Taxpayer....how wrong they were.

I did a month flying around East Africa on a MD80...always overloaded...as they say when one flies in Africa it is moving countries and they carry their whole life with them.
I took my wife but there were no free jumpseats and her priority was zero but I never had the racist problem and got on well with all and sundry. We were somewhere in the middle of nowhere with the aircraft very over loaded and one of the station staff said "No Problem Sir...get Madame to board last...walk down the aircraft, pick up a small person, sit down and hold small person on her lap for take off - after take off go and sit on one of the stewardesses seats ...do the reverse for landing"
And that's was what madame did....overweight takeoff (tonnes)...avoided the ITCZ which wasn't too active...and we had a couple of great days in Dakar together.:O

Danny42C
24th Sep 2014, 16:22
All,

Here we've got a perfect example of our "Crewroom in Cyberspace" working
exactly as it should, with the tales bouncing off from one to another.

You can almost smell the fug of cigarette smoke, see the battered old thrown-out easy chairs, and hear the rain drumming on the Nissen roof, can't you ?

When the last of us "Gainers of a RAF Pilot's Brevet in WWII" has "shuffled off this mortal coil", perhaps our Moderators (bless their little cotton socks), who by their forebearance have allowed Cliff's (RIP) Thread of long ago to grow into the best thing on PPruNe, may allow it to run on renamed as above when its original title has (literally) expired.

Danny.

binbrook
24th Sep 2014, 16:54
Dear Danny

It's a long time ago now but luckily my purloined PNs tell me that the EMERG. BOMBS JETTISON (proper name) did open the doors and jettison all the bombs - did anyone ever have cause to use it? 25 pounders were on their own carrier though, and couldn't be jettisoned. They were armed on the ground and could, and did from time to time, hang up because they had frozen on to the crutches (is that the right term?), and then drop on to the doors when the ice melted.

And a general enquiry: does 9 still have the bogseat from the Prussian Queen? (At the time there was also a completed wartime Authorisation Book in the B Flight Office. Is it still there?)

Danny42C
24th Sep 2014, 21:08
binbrook,

So it could be done, after all ! Again, YLSNED ! Would have been very useful for me the day when I was going in to the jungle from a thousand feet after engine failure with 1500 lb on board.

Although I reduced the aircraft to a pile of scrap, the bombs didn't go off, and the fuel didn't go up.

Danny42C
24th Sep 2014, 22:02
Hempy,

I haven't read any of Dr Quinn's books, but thought they were mostly about the BFTS, and we've had several chaps on Thread (Cliff for a start) who were there and know all about it, whereas I was an Arnold boy and know little of them apart from the fact that they existed.

The Great Divide (in loss rates) seems to have occurred between (Arnold) 42D and 42E. I'd guess that 42D started around 7th October '41. It's interesting that BFTS 42K had 30 hours Grading School in UK first, but (assuming that the BFTS Courses ran side by side with the Arnold - and I think they both started about the same time in the summer of '41), 42K would start some 40 weeks later and so cannot have been a factor in the Arnold case.

At Carlstrom in 42C, we certainly had a lot "washed out" in the first week or two (40% would not surprise me) but we all thought that was quite normal (I myself lost three of my four room-mates). Our Instructors did not seem to find it in any way unusual. Does anybody know the "scrub rates" in UK EFTS at the time ?

Danny.

Ian Burgess-Barber
25th Sep 2014, 09:00
Danny

BFTS washout rate approx 23%
Arnold Plan schools washout rate approx 45%

Back to Will Largent's "RAF Wings over Florida". Chapter 1. Carlstrom Field, Arcadia, Florida, page 18.

"It was apparent early on that something had to be done to stop the flow of washouts in the Arnold schools. Late in 1941, Arnold cadets were given a four-week 'familiarization' session at a U.S. Army air base before going into primary flight training. The program (sic) was designed to help them adjust to the new culture, climate, military discipline, and different foods".

The Arnold Plan itself was the real problem run under rigid U.S.A.A.C. regulations.

"The Arnold Plan cadet was sent from one training post to the next (primary to basic to advanced) and never had more than ten weeks in one place before shipping out to another. This was in direct contrast to the British cadet in a BFTS program (sic) taking primary through advanced training in the same place. Stationed at one base for six months or more a cadet had plenty of time to learn the territory, make friends, and develop a feeling of security -- all important to English boys who had never traveled far from their homeland".

Then, (we've been here before haven't we!) there was the 'Hazing'.

"Tired of being ground down by the often silly, ever juvenile, occasionally sadistic, and sometimes plain stupid hazing incidents, RAF cadets took action, sometimes convincing base commanders to reduce, or, in some cases end the old 'tradition'".

Ian BB

Danny42C
25th Sep 2014, 14:11
Ian BB,

All true - but only "up to a point, Lord Copper !"

The "hazing" problem could only exist in one "interface" between the last American "Upperclass" Course (No.?) and the first RAF "Lowerclass" (42A). This (at Carlstrom) led to a riot of which the details seem to have been hushed up - at least, I could never find any (supposedly the Upperclass came off worst from the ensuing combat).

When the RAF in turn became the "Upperclass"of 42A, they would be followed by a RAF "Lowerclass" (42B) and peace reigned thereafter (as both classes combined, in true British style, to confront the real enemy - the "Management").

In truth, they weren't too bad. The "bull" was no worse than in a British FTS - just different, and if you didn't try to "buck" the system, but just went along with it (when in Rome...), life was comfortable enough (and much more luxurious, better fed and housed than on a UK Station). Of course, there was always the usual malcontent: they got rid of him in short order.

The contrast between the Arnold system (two months at each of three different Schools dotted round the States) and the BFTS (all six months in one spot) was really no problem. It might well have made your social life (if any) more difficult, but then that's not what you're there for, is it ?

Btw, "program" is perfectly correct American spelling. "..,and to develop a feeling of security..". You're in a war, for pity's sake ! There is no "security" !

The real tragedy was the 3,392 "washouts". A few (number unknown) might have had a second chance in Canada. But it is hard to resist the suspicion that that the RAF lost many potential pilots unnecessarily (that they badly needed at that stage). As a matter of interest, and in very rough figures, the total output from the Arnold plus BFTS just about balanced the 8,000 odd pilots killed in our Bomber Command campaign (taking no account of the POWs).

And we still haven't solved the mystery of the dramatic fall in the loss rates at the 42D - 42E point in the Arnold schools (and maybe now never will).

Danny.

rolling20
25th Sep 2014, 14:35
I daresay the statistics have already been given on washouts. It would be interesting to know what the cadets were washed out for, lack of aptitude or something else? Jack Currie for example was washed out of Primary for low flying until his instructor appealed to the C.O. (who had caught him) He went on to complete a tour with Bomber Command with a DFC. Maybe the Americans didn’t realise there was a war on? :)

Ian Burgess-Barber
25th Sep 2014, 14:39
Danny

So you don't think that :

Late in 1941, Arnold cadets were given a four-week 'familiarization' session at a U.S. Army air base before going into primary flight training. The program (sic) was designed to help them adjust to the new culture, climate, military discipline, and different foods".

had anything to do with

the dramatic fall in the loss rates at the 42D - 42E point in the Arnold schools

Oh well, just a thought

Ian BB

Danny42C
25th Sep 2014, 15:07
blind pew,

And there was me, thinking that it was only the RAF who cocked it up on a grand scale ! I had implicit trust in our civil airlines, believing that all the maintenance was perfect and that the crews were truly the Übermensch of whom you speak.

And now you tell me: " ..his flat mate had selected Land Flap instead of Flap Up at the cutback point..." (not really the ideal thing in the circumstances). I think I'll "let the Train take the Strain" from now on (only metaphorically, as I am unlikely to venture very far nowadays). In any case, I always said to myself "If I'm to get killed flying, I'd much prefer it to be my own fault rather than that of some wild youth who should never have been on a Flight Deck in the first place".

I like the sound of "corporate amnesia" (must remember that !). There is plenty of it about. Harks back to the old definition of a Corporation: ("That which has no body to be kicked and no soul to be damned").

And I know all too well the folly of assuming "the gauge" (or whatever) "must be faulty - everything's all right, really". Nearly cost me my life one day (you should always assume the worst, and act accordingly !) :(

Danny.

Chugalug2
25th Sep 2014, 15:59
Danny:-
perhaps our Moderators (bless their little cotton socks), who by their forebearance have allowed Cliff's (RIP) Thread of long ago to grow into the best thing on PPRuNe, may allow it to run on renamed as above when its original title has (literally) expired.
Danny, if the Military Forum ran a thread called
Crewroom in CyberspaceI suspect that, unlike with this one, they would be forever having to intervene. It could be argued that a whole Forum exists anyway at
Jet Blast - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast-16/)
or indeed in the shape of the entire Military Forum itself. No, with due respect, you and your WW2 colleagues are the glue that binds this thread together. I doubt very much if a thread entitled "Gaining an RAF Pilot's Brevet in the Cold War" would get past page 1, unless it be filled by those of more junior years posting what is quaintly termed 'banter'.

So, back to the crewroom. I see that there is at last a battered chair free and a tea stained copy of Tee Emm to thumb through, so I'll just settle down with a cuppa and join in.

Danny, I'm sure that the basic problem with the Arnold scheme at the start was exactly as you surmise, ie not the students but the USAAC. It wasn't yet fully at war and wasn't going to change its habits for a bunch of Brits. The same syndrome existed in the USN which didn't do convoy, the US Army which didn't fear Rommel, and indeed the USAAC which could defend itself by day over the Reich. All very expensive lessons to learn. Being washed out stateside was perhaps a hard outcome but pales into insignificance in comparison perhaps.

blind pew, interesting stuff re BEA. It rather chimes with my admittedly biased outlook. I remember just before I PVR'd in '73 a friend of mine left to join BOAC. He was elated and didn't appreciate my put down that I wouldn't want to leave the RAF only to do yet more government work, thank you. As it was I got a job with Dan-Air until we were duly swallowed up by BA in '92. It was truly an eye-opener.

Professionally we had to learn the 'monitored approach', a different Flight System, etc, all fair enough for, "he who pays the piper...". The eye-opener was the labyrinthine bureaucracy of the company that occupied our one administrator that came with us 24/7, as well as low morale - both ours and seemingly the rest of BA. Ours was down to 'survivor syndrome' whereas we had kept our jobs (in a BA subsidiary BAEOG, paid at DA -10%) while the majority had lost theirs, being on the wrong fleet and/or the wrong base. Theirs seemed to be simply the BA status quo.

We were of course well monitored by the BA training establishment, and I remember one such captain down from LHR to route check us out of LGW. At the end of the day he had little to comment on other than to say, "your cabin crew, they're very friendly, aren't they?". I should hasten to add that this was said in an utterly sincere way lest anyone imagine some double entendre! It left us wondering what his normal experiences were to make such a comment...

Oh, for the record, at an all fleets training meeting at LHR, the worry was raised of BA taking on "all these ex charter pilots". The response was not to worry, as they had now all completed their BA "harmonisation" training with an average rating of a BA High Average!

blind pew
25th Sep 2014, 17:13
Danny I must confess that I plagiarised the term from one of the inquiries into Murdoch but it sums up some of the testimonies at the public inquiry.

Chugalug...you were one of the lucky ones as was one of my Hamble course ex Court Line...whereas another albeit much senior wasn't.
The friendly cabin crew comment came about as there were certain "Gentlemen" and I use the term in the broadest sense - who admonished me for using "please and thank-you" "as the cabin staff are here to serve you..."
There is a very true story about a mega God on the European Tristar who rung down to the underfloor galley on a London to Paris in the days when passengers would get a three course meal whilst the flight crew would try and set a record flight time.
His lordship phoned down his order - the term "pig ignorant" comes to mind - whereby the steward asks - very poshly - "do you know with whom you are speaking sir?" ...."no...well eff off then".
At Paris the whole crew were ordered off the aircraft and lined up...his nibs never found the culprit who didn't pay for a drink for months ;-)
BOAC on minis - VC10s and 707s - was the complete opposite as was Swissair where 90% of the time the flight deck paid for all of the drinks for the cabin crew.
I never understood the mentality as we had a common goal - serve the passengers and have fun whilst we did it.

Danny42C
25th Sep 2014, 17:34
Ian BB,

Frankly Ian, no. That it may have said some bearing, I readily acknowledge. But the unspoken message here is: "These excessive losses were due to the RAF "Kay-dets" inability to assimilate the new culture, climate, military discipline, and different foods".

That is simply untrue (in my experience in Carlstrom, and I do not think the succeeding RAF intakes were any different fom ours). All our "washouts" from 42C were flying-related, either for not being fit for solo at the 10 hr mark, or for subsequent gross breaches of flying discipline. AFAIK, not a single one of our 40% "wastages" was due to a ground disciplinary offence. That cock simply will not fight.

Note that the month's "familiarisation" included no actual flying (the paltry total of 9 failures for the entire time is evidence of that - and it would be very hard to fail a Course that consisted of simply being lectured at for a month and (AFAIK) had no exam at the end.

They would arrive at Primary with zero hours (perhaps one in a thousand had a little previous flying experience): most of us had never been off the ground.

There is something else at work here. I suspect "creative accounting" (cooking the books !) And if there was this dramatic improvement from 42D onward, how do you account for the overall wastage of 3,392 (42 %) of the entire entry ? (this was higher than 42C's loss rate ! we had insignificant losses after Primary - but a few killed).

Danny.

Ian Burgess-Barber
25th Sep 2014, 18:44
Danny

Thank for your last

That is simply untrue (in my experience in Carlstrom, and I do not think the succeeding RAF intakes were any different fom ours). All our "washouts" from 42C were flying-related, either for not being fit for solo at the 10 hr mark, or for subsequent gross breaches of flying discipline. AFAIK, not a single one of our 40% "wastages" was due to a ground disciplinary offence. That cock simply will not fight.


Since I first had the temerity to intrude on this fascinating thread (five months ago, page 276) I made the point that I was not there, and I can only research what has been written about the training programs (non sic)
that you and my late father experienced in sunny Florida. Your statement, above, is not what I read from my researches. Danny, I am absolutely in no way doubting your word (as an ex-officer and I am sure, still a gentleman) about your own experiences, but, I have the impression that you are tougher than most of your peers (after all you are one of the last men standing) and that the reasons for the elimination of many of your fellows may not have been obvious to you at the time, or indeed now, when you read the recorded interviews with others who were also there

With respect

Ian BB

Fareastdriver
25th Sep 2014, 19:22
My father was trained in Pensacola with the US Navy. He was fairly old, thirty, but he was an ex-brat. The fact that he was married and had two children was also unusual. My mothers only comment about his time in the States was that he was two left feet on the dance floor before he went but was like Fred Astair when he came back.

He did a lot of his flying on seaplanes. Possibly he was being streamed for Sunderlands in Coastal. He ended up in Coastal but on Met Halifaxs.

Danny42C
25th Sep 2014, 19:29
Chugalug,

Sadly, you're probably right. Yet we've got such a good thing going here, it would be such a shame if some way to continue its spirit could not be found after the last of us depart (we've not heard much of harrym recently - and I can't last for ever). Hopefully, we've still got chaps like Ian BB and others, who have access to their grand/father's log books and writings (in some cases, the old chap's still alive and able to contribute) and so keep the flag flying - but only for a limited time.

I suppose the real value of us old fossils is that we were there and can tell it exactly how it was (for I'm afraid the revisionist historians hover like vultures all the time). A good example is the Post to Ian BB about "Arnold" which I've just put in: it would seem that his source has implied (probably in all good faith) an explanation of the wastage scandal which simply doesn't hold water. But it fits so nicely that it would certainly pass as truth unless some old codger like me puts his oar in and says: "Hang on, I was there, it wasn't like that at all".

The reaction to "Pearl Harbor" was a story in itself. Their prized Pacific Fleet (or a large part of it) was on the bottom at "Battleship Row" (it was only by the Grace of God that their big Fleet Carriers were at sea, but the Japs didn't know that, or they might have lost some or all of them as well); they were at war with Japan whether they liked it or not; then Hitler seized his chance and declared War on them, too (that really put the cap on it !)

Their only solace was that now they had us as their Gallant Ally - but at that stage of the War, we were hard put to it trying to survive ourselves, never mind helping anybody else !

Danny.

Danny42C
25th Sep 2014, 22:01
Ian,

I'm sorry if I've touched a raw nerve, but I must stand by my own firm recollection. At Carlstrom on 42C (for I can only speak of that: things may have been different elsewhere), I never heard of a single case of one of our number being "washed out" (and sent back to Canada) for any reason other than flying inadequacy or flying discipline.

As any such case would have been a cause célèbre, it would have been widely discussed among us: everyone would have known about it. Simply, there was no such thing ever reported. It would have been impossible to keep it quiet.

What other people may have reported regarding different places at different times I do not know and cannot comment upon. I only affirm what I know.

In any event, a fall in the failure rate from 40% to under 2% (almost overnight) for this reason alone, would imply previous indiscipline on a massive scale - almost a mutiny - and that cannot have escaped record.

Sorry, but I can add nothing more by way of a solution to the problem.

Cheers, Danny.

Ian Burgess-Barber
26th Sep 2014, 09:24
Danny

I understand completely that you must stand by your own firm recollection, but, others in different locations have clearly recorded some of the issues that I have raised here. Vive la difference!

I am warming to your suspicion that "the books were cooked", maybe your VAT inspecting days have given you a nose for such manipulation!

Good day to you sir

Ian BB

pulse1
26th Sep 2014, 11:24
Whilst this thread has temporarily gone back to it's routes to discuss pilot training in the US and Canada, may I ask the great and good a question about continuation training in Canada?

Sadly, a friend of mine died last year and I cannot get my answer from the horses mouth. He trained as a pilot in Canada in late 1944 and, whilst there, went on to train as a bomber pilot on B24 Liberators. Just as he finished his training, the war in Europe finished so he was quickly retrained for operations over Japan. That war finished before he completed that training so he never got to fly on operations. When he got back to the UK all they would let him fly was a Tiger Moth.

One of the stories he related to me described a formation training sortie which was led by the CO. They crossed the border into the USA near Seattle and were fired upon by AA. Apparently, the CO left the formation to proceed on its way and dived down and dropped his practice bombs near the AA guns.

To the CO's subsequent relief, the American senior staff took the view that the gunners deserved what they got for poor aircraft recognition.

One doesn't seem to hear much about UK pilots being trained in operations while in the US or Canada so I wondered if anyone here had any details.

Danny42C
26th Sep 2014, 23:09
One last word on this subject, as we are still left with a lingering insinuation (by contemporaries and later historians), that the early draconic "washout" rates in the Arnold Schools were in part the fault of the "bolshie" RAF cadets' attitude to the novel customs and military procedures to which they now had to accustom themselves.

Look at how it must appeared to the individuals. They'd set their hearts on becoming RAF pilots. Against long odds they had been selected, waited patiently until the RAF was ready for them, gone through their Reception Centres and ITWs, and now they were ready for the great day when they'd take to the air at last!

But wartime Britain was no place for elementary flying training ! We were now reliant on the Empire Flying Training Scheme (mainly Canada and Rhodesia). And then came this wonderful gift from the (officially neutral) United States, in the person of General "Hap" Arnold, commanding the South East Flying Training Center of the United States Army Air Corps. He offered the use of a large part of his training organisation to the RAF. This generous offer was snapped up at once !

Not only that, but the US Government authorised the setting up, at the same time, of British Flying Training Schools (providing airfields, camps, aircraft and civil (later allowing RAF) instructors, in the SW States. And all this started in midsummer '41, when USA was still a Neutral ! It must have been one of the most helpful results of Roosevelt's policy of "All Aid short of War".

And so it was that Danny (and the thousands who were to follow him) found himself across the Atlantic, and ended up at Carlstrom Field in Florida under the "Arnold Scheme". And was introduced to the "Stearman", and to a kind and pleasant South Carolinan (Bob Greer), who cannot have been more that two or three years my senior. Together we started my great adventure (and the rest you know).

But the US Army Air Corps had set the bar very high for their own Cadets, and saw no reason to lower it for us. After some ten days some of our comrades started to come back, one by one, and then by twos and threes, at the close of day, ashen-faced, to tell us that they'd been "chopped". Mercifully, they'd be on the train to Canada first thing in the morning, in their chalk-striped grey suits, (for they were officially "civilians").

This blood-bath lasted about a fortnight, then tapered off. That 2/5 of us had disappeared would be a fair estimate, IMHO. At around the 15-20 hr point, we dared to hope that we might yet get through, and in fact most of us did: there were only one or two more (like my room mate, who'd day-dreamed, at circuit height, through an active RLG circuit) who didn't. For we'd heard, on the grapevine, that once through Primary we were nearly safe - the Holy Grail (our Wings) was in sight ! (And so it proved).

What sort of fool would you now need to be to put all this in jeopardy (and maybe lose it all), by some act of foolish buffoonery, or "kicking against the traces", merely to register your annoyance with some American regulation or other which you thought to be pettyfogging and unnecessary ?

The huge bulk of the losses happened as I've described, and in no other way, What about from 42E on ? - maybe they lowered the bar. Don't know.

Danny42C.

Chugalug2
27th Sep 2014, 08:28
... and there is the very special nature of this thread, straight from the horse's mouth! Not only succinct, but as ever beautifully written! Thank you Danny.

Danny42C
27th Sep 2014, 18:07
pulse1, (your #6238)

AFAIK, the RAF trainees from both Canada and the US all returned to the UK after getting their wings overseas. The decision about their operational future was made at home; after a month's "UK familiarisation" Course they would be sent on to the appropriate Operational Training Unit, and from there to their operational Squadrons. I am certain about the US, but there are ex-RCAF among us who could confirm Canada.

In both places, there would be a small proportion (in the "Arnold" Schools 7% of intake) of the newly winged, "creamed off", trained out there as Instructors, and employed as such (for how long I know not) before return to the UK. In the US case they were intended for the BFTS - you can hardly expect them to be let loose on American Cadets ! (but one surfaced on my "Advanced" Arnold Course at Craig Field, Selma).

In the immediate aftermath of the Bomb, my tiny unit was being used as a parking place for latecomers who'd arrived in India after it was All Over. Among them was one chap who'd spent his entire war in Canada, logging 2,000 hours instructing on Tiger Moths (talk about a "One-trick Pony" !) :(

Danny.

Danny42C
27th Sep 2014, 18:21
Chugalug, (your #6240)

Thank you, Sir ! (you are much too kind).

Cheers, Danny. :ok:

harrym
28th Sep 2014, 16:42
Danny - re your #6235, apologies for recent silence. For some time I have been attempting to set my June '45-Oct '46 SE Asian period into a reasonably compact and readable form – possibly less a straight narrative, but rather into separate sections describing various aspects of operating in that theatre at that particular period. As you can guess, it was a rather different experience as compared to the steady training machine plod; for whereas the war was still 'on' at the start, by mid '46 our squadron based at Hong Kong was, given the rarity of any meaningful civil aviation as such, virtually filling in for non-existent local airlines; so, with a route structure stretching to Japan in one direction and Singapore or Calcutta the other, it was quite a task for our war-weary Daks - not to mention the presence of an insidious air of 'demob-happiness' in some quarters.

I hope to start 'publication' by the end of the year, but don't hold your breath; meanwhile, I find your own writings totally absorbing!

Cheers - harrym

Danny42C
28th Sep 2014, 18:14
harrym,

Thanks for the kind words ! Good to hear from you (we are both 92 and I was starting to worry about you !) Let's have your next instalments when you like and in any way you like.

It will fit in nicely, for I'm slowing down (on the Thread, that is !) :ok:

Cheers, Danny.

Danny42C
28th Sep 2014, 18:52
It must have been in the summer of '71 or '72, for Sqn Ldr Ray Hanna had retired from the RAF in '71, and set up (with his son, I believe) as a sort of impresario for flying display acts. On this occasion Hanna had booked himself for an annual air show at Teeside that afternoon. He had positioned at Leeming late morning (I think we'd had the grace not to charge him a Landing Fee !); the idea was that he would take off after lunch with just enough time to comfortably meet his ETA at TD, perform and then return direct to base (wherever that was).

He was flying a Spitfire IX (Wiki tells me that it was MH434, owned by Sir Adrian Squire [Chairman of Cathay Pacific], for which Company Hanna flew). I do not know how many hours there were on this airframe, but to say that it was in showroom condition was an understatement. I had never seen a Spitfire "bulled-up" as was this one - it positively gleamed, there wasn't a scratch, or a dent, or a spot of oil or mud anywhere on it. Parked on the apron in front of the Tower, it had been admired by just about everyone on the Station who could get to see it.

OC (F) had wisely ordered that all (the Student Body above all) should keep their sticky fingers off this aircraft and in particular out of the cockpit. "Look - but don't touch" was the order of the day. But by the time I came out of the Tower for lunch, the crowd had dispersed and the Spit stood unmolested on the line. I went over to have a look for old time's sake.

I was standing about 20 feet away, arms folded, in a reverie, just letting old memories of my days on them flow over me, when the man himself came over from Flying Wing HQ, and eyed me keenly: "You used to fly them, didn't you ?"......"Yes, sir - 20 Squadron at Valley, 1951" ....."Like to hop in for a minute or two ? I want to see SATCO for a few minutes, but there's no hurry".

Give a donkey strawberries ! I was on the wing in a flash, pushed back the hood, and opened the side flap (why do all the display Spits have their "jemmys" painted red ? - we never did). He'd left his 'chute in the seat, I carefully folded the back over and on top of the seat cushion (for there were doggies about, and you never know), and gingerly climbed in.

The years melted away - thirty since I first timidly shoe-horned myself in, twenty since my last flight. It was if I'd never been away. I hooked my shoes into the top rungs of the "double-decker" rudder "stirrups" (an early idea to delay the onset of the effects of "G"), glanced down on the turnbuckle adjusters with their foot-operated star-wheels, which gave you for-and-aft rudder bar setting, and took the spade-grip (so much more comfortable to hold than any stick, whatever gubbins you may have on top). In the centre of the spade-grip the wheel brake lever fell under your fingertips as naturally as on a bike handlebar.

And above all, the articulated stick. It's so much nicer (and a must in a narrow cockpit !), and all you need is a sprocket and a bit of bike chain in the control column to connect with the elevator and aileron cable rods at the bottom. The compressed air lines that worked the wheel brakes and gun firing are flexible anyway. Throttle still had the "twist grip" for ranging the Gyro Computing Gunsight (are they still around ?), but I think the sight itself (and guns, of course) had been taken out. The little brass "Ki-gas" (hand-pump fuel injector into the manifold for a cold start) was still down on the right. The smooth white "bog-pull" handle still adorned the u/c lever. I noted with approval that there was plenty of compressed air in the tank.

Everything else was exactly as I remembered it (except possibly the R/T set). It even smelt just as before ! Ray Hanna and I must have been much the same size, for his rudder reach and seat height settings suited me perfectly - I was in the hunched attitude of a racing jockey - which is exactly as we were trained for air combat. In day-to-day A-B flying (eg transporting 3-tonner brake drums !) you'd relax with your feet in the lower stirrups.

Of course the IX and the XVI are identical twins; if you don't know the A/F number prefixes, the only way you can tell them apart is to take off an engine panel. If the long alloy camcovers bear a proud ROLLS ROYCE, you have a IX. If they're blank, it's a XVI (Merlin Mk.266), (and you might expect "GMC" or "PACKARD", but the Americans had deliberately left their names off - a graceful gesture of self-abnegation which was always quietly appreciated).

All in all the Spitfire cockpit was a masterpiece of ergonomics. Clearly, pilots had had a large hand in the design. Everything came naturally to hand. With all other aircraft I flew, it was a question of sitting "on" or sitting "in" them: is no accident that so many old spitfire men liken it to "putting on a glove" - for that was exactly what it felt like - putting on an old and comfortable glove. And when you had also a tolerant and vice-free aircraft which flew beautifully, who would ever want anything else ?

I climbed out, carefully rearranged the 'chute seat back, closed the flap and the hood, and jumped down (I was never to touch a Spit again from that day to this). "I'll come in to SATCO with you, if I may, sir", I added to my thanks. "I'll be the ATC Supervisor this afternoon - I presume it's about your display ?"...... "Then you're just the man I need to see", he said, "come along". Lunch would be rather late - if at all.

The rest will have to wait for a day or two. Goodnight, all.

Danny42C.


Memories, memories !

airborne_artist
29th Sep 2014, 06:50
And that, gentlemen, is perhaps the best post I have ever read on this thread and the whole of PPrune. It is so wonderfully crafted that I too was there in that cockpit, smelling the same smell.

FantomZorbin
29th Sep 2014, 07:17
Many years ago when still a very young child, I was taken to Brighton. There on the sea front, pointing out to sea, was a Spitfire on display for Wings Day. For 6d children were allowed to sit in it and be shown around the cockpit by a member of the RAF. I understood little of what the chap said as I was mesmerised, just sitting there looking forward past the gunsight to a sparkling blue sky with the occasional Cu floating around - I was in another world.
Your reminiscence took me straight back to that moment - I can't thank you enough Sir.

kookabat
29th Sep 2014, 07:30
And that, gentlemen, is perhaps the best post I have ever read on this thread and the whole of PPrune. It is so wonderfully crafted that I too was there in that cockpit, smelling the same smell.
What he said.
Lovely writing, Danny. Not that we've come to expect anything else from you.

mmitch
29th Sep 2014, 09:56
The Old Flying Machine Co was and is still the operator of that Spitfire.
Danny.





MH434 - Supermarine Spitfire IX - The Old Flying Machine Company (http://www.mh434.com/)
mmitch.

pulse1
29th Sep 2014, 10:20
Danny42C,

Many thanks for your answer to my rather vague question. Prompted by this I have got off my BS and started to do my own research.

I never realised that aircrew training in Canada was not restricted to pilots but included navigators, air gunners and wireless operators. Under Article XV, bomber squadrons were formed from RAF and RCAF crews trained under the Commonwealth Agreement so I can only imagine that my old friend was part of this scheme. Some of the Article XV Squadrons remained in Canada right up to the end of hostilities.