Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II [Archive] - Page 24

Icare9

6th Jun 2014, 15:42

Danny42C and pompax especially-
After a lengthy sojourn in southern Spain for our Spring vacation, we're now back home and catching up on this wonderful thread I note Posts 5735 referring to Dannys friend, Ronnie Sweetlove.

I obviously rushed my response at that time, but have since revisited my information.

Firstly, the Additional Information is provided by the family of the deceased in a Final Verification Form sent out by the CWGC prior to entering the details on the cemetery register and once digitised onto the CWGC Debt of Honour database.
Therefore that's how the family wanted the Additional Details presented.

On CWGC records that do not contain Additional Information, that is because no FVF was returned, either by choice or due to being unable to locate a correct address for the surviving family (not uncommon when blown out of home by Blitz or doodlebugs).

What caused me to review the information was the Grave information for S/Ldr McKinnon...
Collective Grave 9-19.....
We all understand that at times it would be impossible to correctly identify the crew remains in a totally destroyed bomber, especially with a full bomb load, but a Collective Grave with 11 bodies???? A typical crew would be 7 (or 8 if carrying a specialist to jam night fighter frequencies). Occasionally there may be a second dickie with a new pilot flying with an experienced crew, or official photographer etc, but ELEVEN?

Further examination shows that these graves contain members from THREE different Squadrons, 6 from 44 Squadron; Sweetlove, Grimshaw, McKinnon and Jenkinson from 100 Squadron and a Sgt Thomas Arthur Bird from 101 Squadron. All were RAF/RAFVR except for McKinnon with a much darker blue uniform.
Often, that aids identification (or at least separation) from RAF crew as usually "something" of the uniform survives even catastrophic fire.

I can accept that a midair collision may have occurred resulting in the wreckage of two aircraft being found together and thus identifying who was on what aircraft hard to resolve, but THREE different Squadrons?

In addition, it appears that some of the 100 Sqaudron crew were able to bale out or were in a separate part and identified individually.

In December 1942 100 Squadron reformed at RAF Waltham (Grimsby). The squadron was allocated 16 Lancaster Mk IIIs The first operational sortie took place on March 4th 1943, with a mine laying (gardening) operation to St. Nazaire, losing its first two aircraft on this raid. ED559 crashed in the target area, and ED549 crashed at Langar Airfield in Nottinghamshire whilst trying to land.

100 Squadron dropped a total of 18,108 tons of bombs in 3,984 individual sorties. The squadron lost 113 Lancasters during the War, costing the lives of 593 young men.

CHAPPELL, STANLEY FREDERICK WALTER. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Flt. Engr. Service No: 625153. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force. 100 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 2. E. 7. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY

GRIMSHAW, CYRIL JAMES. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 649407. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force. 100 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.

JENKINSON, HARRY. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: W.Op./Air Gnr. Service No: 1025847. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 22.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 100 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Alan Patrick and Edith Jenkinson, of Coventry.

KNOWLES, MAURICE HENRY. Rank: Sergeant. Service No: 1575223. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 20.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 100 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 2. E. 8. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Charles Shirley Knowles and Mary Elizabeth Knowles, of Leicester.

McKINNON, JOHN ARNOTT. Rank: Squadron Leader. Trade: Pilot. Service No: J/4965. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 27.
Regiment/Service: Royal Canadian Air Force. 100 (R.A.F.) Sqdn
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
Additional Information: Son of John Donald and Ruth Rebecca McKinnon, of Red Deer, Alberta, Canada.

MONTIGUE, RICHARD JAMES BRUCE. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Nav. Service No: 1331520. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 20.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 100 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 2. E. 6. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Laurence Herbert and Julia Mary Montigue, of Leigh-on-Sea, Essex.

SWEETLOVE, RONALD SPENCER. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Obs. Service No: 1029829. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 100 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.

I'll see if I can identify Ronnies Lancaster and anything else, but please feel free to comment if a plausible explanation occurs to anyone...

EDIT: After a bit of rooting around, I believe they were the crew of Lanc III ED568 coded "T" fitted with Mandrel and Gee. Take off at 21:30 from Grimsby headed for Duisburg. Bomb load all incendiaries; 30 x 4 lb X type incendiaries, 48 x 30 lb incendiaries and 510 x 4 lb incendiaries.
McKinnon was pilot; Montigue - Nav; Sweetlove - B/Aimer; Jenkinson W/Op; Chappell - F/Eng; Knowles M/U/G and Grimshaw R/G.

Loss card shows shot down and 4 identified. "Rae M" and others buried on 14 April in Munchen Gladbach.

Presumably other returning aircraft made the "shot down" report, unless the notation is post War from German night fighter records.......

That precludes a mid air if the aircraft was known to have been shot down.

smujsmith

7th Jun 2014, 20:21

gzornenplatz

Your post re the upside down tailplane brings reminiscences of an experience I had whilst flying gliders. On a fairly windy day, I was asked to Hangar fly the old ASK7. The aircraft sat with tyres on wingtip and tail to counter the wind gusts. The lads helping me launch said no probs, we will get them off, so I strapped in. The ride up the winch launch was definitely different, and I needed a disturbing amount of forward elevator to keep it level. It wasn't beyond control though, so I floated around, and then landed by the hangar. You've got it, the lads at launch assumed that the two tyres on the tailplane would drop off on launch, someone had secured them with a rope. They were still there when I landed. I never got airborne after that, without personally removing any such clutter..

Smudge:ok:

Danny42C

7th Jun 2014, 20:54

Icare9,

Thank you for the meticulous research you've carried out on the sad end of S/Ldr McKinnon's crew, but I'm afraid that exactly how they died is just another of the wartime questions which can now never be answered. Many mid-air collisions must have happened in the tightly packed bomber "streams", and a report of an aircraft being "shot-down", even if correct, might relate to any aircraft in the stream.

The German burial squads will have done their best in the conditions of the time, and the CWGC done the same at the sorting-out stage; but in the aftermath of the crash of a burning bomber (particularly with bombs on board), all sorts of misidentification must have occurred among the few remains which could be recovered. To put it bluntly: "It's a wise body that knows its own (war) grave". This is a terrible thing to have to say, but it is (almost certainly) so.

One of the "RAF" Sergeants (the F/E, Chappel) would have been a Fitter (or a Mech) (Airframe) or (Engine), who'd enlisted pre-war and so been given a 600,000 series (RAF) number. Subsequently he'd volunteered for aircrew duties, been accepted and promoted to Sergeant.

What I'm not sure about is "RAF" Sergeant Grimshaw, the AG Normally, nearly all the other aircrew trades came in as RAFVR direct entry volunteers, and been allotted a seven-digit VR number like the other four (I was 1,1##,###) - pretty well in the middle of the "spread" of them. But he is in the same series as Chappel (the "RAF" 6-digits again); it is probable that he was originally a pre-war airman in some ground trade who had later volunteered for aircrew like Chappel.

For it seems to have been the practice, during the war, for all enlistments (whether "volunteers" or "pressed men") to have been into the RAFVR (7 digits), which rather negates the 'volunteer' part of the RAFVR title. Of course, once 'in', all aircrew were "true" Volunteers for that duty - it could not have been otherwise.

It may be significant that we have no ages for the two 'RAF' men, although we have for three of the four 'RAFVR' ( and Ron Sweetlove, the fourth, with a '1,0##,###' number, would have come in slightly before me - '1,1##,###", and cannot have been much older than I [21] when he died). I assume that the two 'RAF' would be older men.

And my guess about Ron was correct - he was now the 'Obs' (Nav) of the crew.

Cheers, Danny.

Icare9

7th Jun 2014, 23:30

Danny: Thank you for the compliment, but if I had been meticulous I would have completed the research a long while ago.
I appreciate the matter of fact way in which you have accepted the information and made logical sense of the situation.
There is no way of knowing so long after the event just what happened to these crews, but I am just a little surprised that McKinnon at least couldn't be specifically identified on reburial.
Both the German and Allied burial details would have known that bomber crews would be no more than 8, so there must ave been a solid reason that they were unable to separate the crews.
You have made the perceptive comment regarding the Service Numbers, and neither of the "RAF" regular airmen have any Additional Information, nor are their ages given.
As previously explained the Additional Information would be provided (where possible) by their families, and that not all families were either traced or responded, perhaps in the hope their loved ones were still alive but Missing "somewhere".
The age, however, would be provided by the RAF and it seems significant that the RAFVR ages were provided but not that for regular RAF. I'd not come across anything so clearly demarking RAF from RAFVR personnel.
You learn something every day!
Their Service Numbers certainly indicate a much earlier entry into the Air Force, so in all liklihood they would be at the higher end of the age bracket for aircrew.
For myself, I'm piqued by Montigue as he's from the same town as myself and i have recently been involved in trying to locate family for another WW2 Halifax casualty from Southend area.
It's an unusual surname and whilst initial searches seemed to indicate he had been born in Germany (!) his Birth was registered in West Ham 2nd Qtr 1922.
His mothers maiden name was Thompson so i believe the German connection is spurious.
In 1959 a Richard W L Montigue was registered as being born in Southend, so he would seem to have at least one brother marrying a Miss Harland.
I'm continuing to look out for details on the 44 Sqdn crew sharing the grave and also Sgt Bird and his 101 Sqdn aircraft.
Ronnie was the bomb aimer that night.

EDIT: Now traced at least the 44 Sqdn details:
44 squadron Lancaster Mk I ED351 coded "S" from Waddington. Bomb load 1 x 4,000 lb cookie and 12 cases of 6x3M IB (incendiary bombs?)
Fitted with TR1335
HAINES, IVAN CHARLES. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: Pilot. Service No: 1257965. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 44 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.

ASBURY, REGINALD ARTHUR. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Nav. Service No: 1241805. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 22.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 44 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Albert Thomas Asbury and Harriot Madeline Asbury, of Birmingham.

PRINCE, RALPH GREGORY. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Bomb Aimer. Service No: 1218594. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 20.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 44 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Joseph Evley Prince, D.C.M., M.M., and Alice Jane Prince, of Hull.
(Note: shown on Loss Card as being the W/Op)

RICHARDSON, STANLEY. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Flt. Engr. Service No: 949104. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 24.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 44 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of William and Lydia Richardson; husband of Hilda Richardson, of Moses Gate, Farnworth, Lancashire.

WARD, FRANK GLENISTER. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: W.Op./Air Gnr. Service No: 1020872. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 20.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 44 Sqdn.
Grave Reference Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Frank Glenister Ward and Dorothy Ward, of Newcastle-on-Tyne.
(not on Loss card crew list, the M/U/G is shown as Sgt E Strandberg, R134019).

YEO, LOUIS JOHN. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1314128. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 44 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY

STRANDBERG, EDWIN. Rank: Warrant Officer Class II. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: R/134019. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 19.
Regiment/Service: Royal Canadian Air Force. 44 (R.A.F.) Sqdn
Grave Reference: 2. E. 4. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of John Edwin and Elvera E. Strandberg, of Renton, Washington, U.S.A.

(The crew list does not show any name as rear gunner, it seems a badly completed card from 44 Sqdn so the RAF didn't seem to know who had been aboard, though no doubt Ward would have been found to be missing at Roll Call, but never entered on the Loss card.)

Loss Card shows a notation that Haines and "several" others buried 14 April in Munchen Gladbach. Again refers to the aircraft as being shot down.

At first glance it would seem that this "should" be the crew in one collective grave but by some mischance some other aircrew were perhaps transported together and unable to be separately identified as being which crew from which aircraft. Strandberg, however, as an RCAF uniformed body, was able to be separately identified and is buried in an individual grave.

BIRD, THOMAS ARTHUR. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1337140. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 101 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY

A bit more of a puzzle, I can't find any Loss Card for a 101 Squadron aircraft or any other CWGC 101 Squadron deaths that night.
I did think I had found his aircraft Loss Card with him as rear gunner, but not able to find it again today!

The non collective grave burials in Duisburg for 8/9 April are all in Plot 2 Row E commencing with Pilot Officer A J Gurr 143231 of 15 Squadron in 2E3, then Strandberg the RCAF member of the 44 Sqdn crew; F/Sgt J R Riley 415182 RAAF (no Squadron detail) in 2E5 (Date of death shown as 9 April, from the following nights raid also on Duisburg) then Montigue, Chappell and Knowles from 100 Squadron.
2E9 to 19 is the collective grave and 2E20 is F/Sgt Arthur Cox, DFM 952058 from 405 (RCAF) also an 8th April casualty..
The next burials are from 27 April.

A rather eclectic mix of Squadrons, let alone nationalities but I'm hopeful that the remainder of these other crews survived.

I'm sorry to dredge up these memories, please continue with your reminiscences, but I couldn't leave the information once i had put it together.
It may not be pleasant but at least the information may help others who may be making their own searches for what happened.

Hummingfrog

8th Jun 2014, 06:57

RAF Service Numbers can still indicate how you joined! My number starts with 262 which indicates I joined from University having been a VR member of the University Air Squadron first.

HF

Petet

8th Jun 2014, 10:13

Icare9

T.A Bird was part of the crew of 101 Squadron Lancaster ED608. He, along with J R Riley was killed, the rest of the crew were POW

Regards

Pete

Icare9

8th Jun 2014, 10:57

Thanks HF Jr and PeteT.
Just spent the morning trawling through the Loss Cards.

15 Squadron Stirling Mk I EF359 from Bourne. Bomb load 1 x 2,000 lb HX; 1x500 lb (LD37) 1 x 500 lb (LD37E). Neither the mid upper nor rear gunner are buried at Rheinberg, but in two separate Plots (not adjacent graves) in Reichswald Forest Cemetery. That suggests that they were widely separated from the rest of the crew who may have been unable to bale out and thus all found in the wreckage a distance away from where the two gunners came down. The Loss Card reports that 4 were identified, and that Hall was initially buried at Meerback on 22 April. Lutwyche was buried on 6 May at Ursoy (SW of Duisberg) and that Williams was washed up at Werd am Rhein and buried on 21 April at Dusseldorf.

BRAGG, WILFRED SPENCER. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Flt. Engr. Service No: 621785.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 23. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Joint grave 2. E. 1-2. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of George Harding Bragg and Janet Eliza Bragg, of Gillingham, Kent.

GURR, ANTHONY JOHN. Rank: Pilot Officer. Trade: Pilot. Service No: 143231. Age: 20.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 2. E. 3. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
Additional Information: Son of Frank and Elizabeth Charlotte Gurr, of St. Margarets, Twickenham, Middlesex.

KIMBER, JOHN EVAN SAMUEL. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: W.Op./Air Gnr. Service No: 1290705. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Joint grave 2. E. 1-2. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of John Evan and Hilda Edith Kimber, of Croydon, Surrey; husband of J. E. S. Kimber, of Croydon.

LAMBERT, FREDERICK GEORGE. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Bomber. Service No: 1339473. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 20. Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 2. D. 25. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Wade Foster Lambert and Julia Lambert, of Ilford, Essex. His brother, John James Lambert, also died on service.

LUTWYCHE, PERCY. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Nav. Service No: 1235760.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 14. D. 22. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY

HALL, JAMES. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1527292. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 26. G. 16. Cemetery: REICHSWALD FOREST WAR CEMETERY.

WILLIAMS, IVOR WYN. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1504193. Age: 20.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 9. C. 15. Cemetery: REICHSWALD FOREST WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Gwyn and Annie Williams, of Penrhos, Caernarvonshire.

COX, ARTHUR. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 952028. Awards: D F M
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 405 (R.C.A.F.) Sqdn
Grave Reference: 2. E. 20. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
(Still to trace aircraft and rest of crew)

156 Squadron Lancaster Mk I ED622 coded “?”. Take off: 21:42 from Warboys. Bomb load Not yet known: Crashed near Koln where burials were held 13 April in Koln Sud but all now rest in Rheinberg. Sgt Grace may have been Canadian, he certainly was married to a Canadian girl. There is a possibility that Younger was also born in Canada.

YOUNGER, ROBERT GRAHAM. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: Pilot. Service No: 401344.
Age: 27. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 5. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Thomas Brydon Younger and Elizabeth Ann Younger, of East St. Kilda, Victoria, Australia.

FERGUSON, NOEL. Rank: Pilot Officer. Trade: Nav. Service No: 404716. Age: 21.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 6. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Arthur Vivian and Gladys Mary Ferguson, of Toowong, Queensland, Australia.

FLETT, RODERICK HENRY. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: W/Op. Service No: 403691. Age: 26.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 7. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Stanley Alexander Flett and Beryl Jane Flett; husband of Joan Flett, of Garah, New South Wales, Australia.

WHITE, STANLEY MUSGRAVE. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: F/Eng. Service No: 15319. Age: 30.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 8. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Alfred Musgrave White and Eva Mary Maddocks White; husband of Marjorie Beryl White, of Kellyville, New South Wales, Australia.

STOPFORD, NEWMAN G. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Nav./Bomb Aimer Service No: 656400.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force. 156 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 4. E. 9. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY

GRACE, JAMES PEARCE MASSEY. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: M/U/G. Service No: 404582. Age: 26. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 10. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of James Pearce Francis and of Winifred Maria Grace, of Brisbane, Queensland, Australia; husband of Dorothy Mabel Grace, of Montreal, Quebec, Canada.

JACKSON, ALBERT JAMES. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1322187. Age: 20.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 156 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 4. E. 11. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Fanny Jackson, of Holloway, London.

101 Squadron Lancaster Mk III ED608 coded “T” from Holme on 2nd raid on 9 April. Bomb load 60 x 4 lb incendiaries, 48 x 30 lb X type incendiaries and 480 x 4 lb incendiaries. Shot down by flak at 21,000 ft over Duisberg. Bomb load jettisoned. Riley the mid upper and Bird the rear gunner were killed, the rest of the crew (P/Off E M Nelson AUS/401227 – pilot - PoW; F/Sgt R B A Pender AUS/411517 - Nav – safe; F/Sgt R A Parnell AUS/411514 – W/Op – PoW; F/Sgt C W Shields – B/Aimer – PoW; Sgt E V Newstead (RAFVR) 638014 – F/Eng – safe. Unusual for the pilot etc to bale out, usually it’s the 2 gunners that escape while the rest of the crew are in the wreckage. Even more unusual for 2 shot down aircrew to escape from inside Germany, from Duisberg.

BIRD, THOMAS ARTHUR. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1337140.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 101 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.

RILEY, JOHN RICHMOND. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Service No: 415182. Age: 28.
Date of Death: 09/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (101 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 2. E. 5. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.

That's all I have so far.

It's just my curiosity on why so many in one collective grave and the random spread of the other burials associated with the various aircraft. it also seems that "shot down" more often refers to flak rather than fighters.

Petet

8th Jun 2014, 13:20

One of my recent research projects identified that the remains of some of the airmen from one aircraft had been buried in a collective grave along with the remains of airmen from six other aircraft.

One other thing of interest was that although the plot was numbered 1-20, it contained the remains of 25 personnel, each with their own individual headstone. The CWGC sent me an explanation, which I feel is too sensitive to publish here.

Regards

Pete

Icare9

8th Jun 2014, 13:45

Thanks HF Jr and PeteT.
Just spent the morning trawling through the Loss Cards.

15 Squadron Stirling Mk I EF359 from Bourne. Bomb load 1 x 2,000 lb HX; 1x500 lb (LD37) 1 x 500 lb (LD37E). Neither the mid upper nor rear gunner are buried at Rheinberg, but in two separate Plots (not adjacent graves) in Reichswald Forest Cemetery. That suggests that they were widely separated from the rest of the crew who may have been unable to bale out and thus all found in the wreckage a distance away from where the two gunners came down. The Loss Card reports that 4 were identified, and that Hall was initially buried at Meerback on 22 April. Lutwyche was buried on 6 May at Ursoy (SW of Duisberg) and that Williams was washed up at Werd am Rhein and buried on 21 April at Dusseldorf.
BRAGG, WILFRED SPENCER. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Flt. Engr. Service No: 621785.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 23. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Joint grave 2. E. 1-2. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of George Harding Bragg and Janet Eliza Bragg, of Gillingham, Kent.
GURR, ANTHONY JOHN. Rank: Pilot Officer. Trade: Pilot. Service No: 143231. Age: 20.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 2. E. 3. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
Additional Information: Son of Frank and Elizabeth Charlotte Gurr, of St. Margarets, Twickenham, Middlesex.
KIMBER, JOHN EVAN SAMUEL. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: W.Op./Air Gnr. Service No: 1290705. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Joint grave 2. E. 1-2. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of John Evan and Hilda Edith Kimber, of Croydon, Surrey; husband of J. E. S. Kimber, of Croydon.
LAMBERT, FREDERICK GEORGE. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Bomber. Service No: 1339473. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 20. Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 2. D. 25. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Wade Foster Lambert and Julia Lambert, of Ilford, Essex. His brother, John James Lambert, also died on service.
LUTWYCHE, PERCY. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Nav. Service No: 1235760.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 14. D. 22. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
HALL, JAMES. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1527292. Date of Death: 08/04/1943.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 26. G. 16. Cemetery: REICHSWALD FOREST WAR CEMETERY.
WILLIAMS, IVOR WYN. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1504193. Age: 20.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 15 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 9. C. 15. Cemetery: REICHSWALD FOREST WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Gwyn and Annie Williams, of Penrhos, Caernarvonshire.

COX, ARTHUR. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 952028. Awards: D F M
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 405 (R.C.A.F.) Sqdn
Grave Reference: 2. E. 20. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.

156 Squadron Lancaster Mk I ED622 coded “?”. Take off: 21:42 from Warboys. Bomb load: Crashed near Koln where burials were held 13 April in Koln Sud but all now rest in Rheinberg. Sgt Grace may have been Canadian, he certainly was married to a Canadian girl. There is a possibility that Younger was also born in Canada.
YOUNGER, ROBERT GRAHAM. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: Pilot. Service No: 401344.
Age: 27. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 5. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Thomas Brydon Younger and Elizabeth Ann Younger, of East St. Kilda, Victoria, Australia.
FERGUSON, NOEL. Rank: Pilot Officer. Trade: Nav. Service No: 404716. Age: 21.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 6. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Arthur Vivian and Gladys Mary Ferguson, of Toowong, Queensland, Australia.
FLETT, RODERICK HENRY. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: W/Op. Service No: 403691. Age: 26.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 7. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Stanley Alexander Flett and Beryl Jane Flett; husband of Joan Flett, of Garah, New South Wales, Australia.
WHITE, STANLEY MUSGRAVE. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: F/Eng. Service No: 15319. Age: 30.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 8. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Alfred Musgrave White and Eva Mary Maddocks White; husband of Marjorie Beryl White, of Kellyville, New South Wales, Australia.
STOPFORD, NEWMAN G. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Nav./Bomb Aimer Service No: 656400.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force. 156 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 4. E. 9. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
GRACE, JAMES PEARCE MASSEY. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Trade: M/U/G. Service No: 404582. Age: 26. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Service: Royal Australian Air Force. (156 Squadron).
Grave Reference: 4. E. 10. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of James Pearce Francis and of Winifred Maria Grace, of Brisbane, Queensland, Australia; husband of Dorothy Mabel Grace, of Montreal, Quebec, Canada.
JACKSON, ALBERT JAMES. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1322187. Age: 20.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 156 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: 4. E. 11. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Fanny Jackson, of Holloway, London.
101 Squadron Lancaster Mk III ED608 coded “T” from Holme on 2nd raid on 9 April. Bomb load 60 x 4 lb incendiaries, 48 x 30 lb X type incendiaries and 480 x 4 lb incendiaries. Shot down by flak at 21,000 ft over Duisberg. Bomb load jettisoned. Riley the mid upper and Bird the rear gunner were killed, the rest of the crew (P/Off E M Nelson AUS/401227 – pilot - PoW; F/Sgt R B A Pender AUS/411517 - Nav – safe; F/Sgt R A Parnell AUS/411514 – W/Op – PoW; F/Sgt C W Shields – B/Aimer – PoW; Sgt E V Newstead (RAFVR) 638014 – F/Eng – safe. Unusual for the pilot etc to bale out, usually it’s the 2 gunners that escape while the rest of the crew are in the wreckage. Even more unusual for 2 shot sown aircrew to escape from inside Germany, from Duisberg.
BIRD, THOMAS ARTHUR. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 1337140.
Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 101 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.
RILEY, JOHN RICHMOND. Rank: Flight Sergeant. Service No: 415182. Age: 28.
Date of Death: 09/04/1943. Regiment/Service: Royal Australian Air Force.
Grave Reference: 2. E. 5. Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY.

That's all I have so far.

It's just my curiosity on why so many in one collective grave and the random spread of the other burials associated with the various aircraft. it also seems that "shot down" more often refers to flak rather than fighters.

DFCP

8th Jun 2014, 19:37

Hummingbird
Enlisting in Nov 43 at Penarth before going to EUAS in April 44 on a Short Course I was given a 3 million service number which I believe denoted that one had been in the ATC.
I have no idea when the 3 million series started and wonder if any of this series became war casualties

Icare9

8th Jun 2014, 21:03

DFCP (DFC award?)
A very quick check reveals at least one
ROYAL, ROBERT ERIC. Rank: Sergeant. Trade: Flt. Engr. Service No: 3000076.
Date of Death: 23/06/1944. Age: 19.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. 76 Sqdn.
Grave Reference: Grave 3. Cemetery: MONTCHALONS CHURCHYARD
Additional Information: Son of William Charles and Elsie Mary Royal, of Stratfield, Reading, Berkshire.

From your information that probably explains his exalted rank for a teenager plus his presence on a prestige Squadron. From his early number he was in possibly the first batch of ATC entrants. That presumably places the 3,000,000 series as starting in mid-late 43 given the length of time for training to posting to an Operational Squadron.
If your 3,000,000 series number is close to the start, then that means you were also an "early bird".
Perhaps you have your own memories and reminiscences to regal us with?
Please feel free to join in when you feel ready, like Bugs Bunny, we're all ears!

EDIT: In the 3,000,000 to 3,999,999 series there are 466 CWGC fatalities.
These seem to be the earliest, if that helps in any way
BUCKLEY, SAMUEL. Rank: Leading Aircraftman. Trade: Air Gnr. Service No: 3010883.
Date of Death: 16/11/1943. Age: 17. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve.
Grave Reference: Sec. N. Grave 496. Cemetery: ASHTON-UNDER-LYNE (HURST) CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of Samuel and Lilian Buckley, of Ashton-under-Lyne.

ADAMS, KENNETH PATERSON. Rank: Aircraftman 2nd Class. Service No: 3011286.
Date of Death: 16/01/1944. Age: 18. Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve.
Grave Reference: Sec. 6. Grave 26. Cemetery: JARROW CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of William B.J. Adams and Esther Adams, of Jarrow.

The vast majority are post WW2 but I haven't gone through them to see if any were lost On Active Service over Germany etc, but many were allocated to Squadrons, so there is a chance that some did fall on Operations.

Ormeside28

9th Jun 2014, 10:29

Addenda. In 1943 and 1944 all our aircraft at Terrell were silver.

After leave it was back to Harrogate and then to Whitley Bay for a month with the R.A.F. Regiment at the NCOs School where we had lectures, drill and regiment training. There were a lot of pilots waiting for further training and some were sent on the railway as firemen. Not a happy prospect and some trains apparently ran out of steam as the coal was not shovelled quickly enough|
Back to Harrogate and to Elmdon, now Birmingham Airport, for a month flying Tiger Moths to get used to mapreading and English weather. Very enjoyable and managed 45 hours in the four weeks of which only twelve days were flyable.
During this time, September 1944, Monty's Arnhem Battle went disasterously wrong. He lost so many glider pilots that the Glider Pilot Regiment was non-operational.
Brigadier George Chatterton, who was the C.O. of the Regiment had been a pilot in the R.A.F. and had friends in high places. He asked for pilots, such as we, awaiting further training, to be seconded to his Regiment. Volunteers were called for at Harrogate, but we wanted Spitfires of Mustangs and not many volunteered. We were paraded and told in no uncertain manner, that, if we did not volunteer we would never fly again. So we became voluntary conscripts. 500 to India and 500 to stay in U.K.
Off to Bridgnorth for two weeks with the R.A.F. Regiment, shooting, digging trenches etc., and then on to Brize Norton to fly Horsas and Hadrians for two weeks,towed by Whitleys. We were drilled by RSM Briodie, Irish Guards, also a glider pilot. Another two weeks at Hampstead Norris, towed by Albermarles and this time with Army Glider instructors and after that our postings to Horsa or Hamilcar Squadrons.

Chugalug2

9th Jun 2014, 11:35

Interesting homecoming Ormeside! What explanation (or perhaps none?) were you given for the double helping of RAF Regiment, particularly in the first instance? Was the insatiable demand of Bomber Command for pilots now a thing of the past? After D-Day was the emphasis on tactical air power, and therefore the strong possibility of being in the battle area rather than merely being above it? Were you happy to be drilled and lectured on the 'tool entrenching for the use of', or were there mutterings? Horses for course perhaps, though harrym and hummingfrog snr might well have preferred the firing of mainline locos instead. :)

However, once the die was cast and you had all 'volunteered' for Army secondment and the GPR, such skills became matters of potential life and death of course. Could you please give some details of the training, both at BN and Hampstead Norris?

Was the BN course more a case of circuit work, ie learning your key points for height and speed cross wind, downwind, base leg, and approach for a chosen landing spot, and the second perhaps more realistic towed cross countries to calculated cast off points for tactical exercises with troops and payloads? Only a guess of course, so please correct and inform. How much was night work? What sort of penetration ratio did these aircraft have? One imagines something similar to a house brick, but presumably some were better than others. Were you current/checked out on all types, some, or just one?

Lots more questions no doubt, but I'll leave them for others. Suffice to say, it is a little known and discussed part of WW2 aviation, and so of great interest to this thread I'd suggest.

DFCP

9th Jun 2014, 14:26

Icare9
Thank you for all the information and NO my DFC initials only indicate that I was christened Denis Frederick Campbell!
I have exhausted my service history earlier on Gaining an RAF etc ` From the service numbers of the other 22 on my EUAS course---all or almost all ex ATC---I concluded that each recruiting center was given a batch of numbers in the 3 million series so that a lower number did not necessarily mean earlier enlistment.
Your investigation confirms that because of the length of and at that time, delays, in training for P and N categories it was more likely that AG, s and perhaps FE, s would be in action before the end of the war.

thegypsy

9th Jun 2014, 15:17

Icare9 re your post 5770 15 Squadron was RAF Bourn Cambs and if you go to Home - RAFBournmemorial (http://www.rafbournmemorial.co.uk) and go to squadron losses you will see all 15 squadron losses whilst at Bourn ( without an e which is in Lincs )

Also a memorial plaque is being laid on August 24th which I will attend as my father was there in 15 squadron late 42/early 43

I see from reading Oxford's Own ( History of 15/XV Squadron ) that the Pilot Sgt John Gurr had applied for a commission which was granted three weeks after his death so he was buried with the rank of Pilot Officer.I was until I read that going to say my father would probably have come across him in the Officers Mess but clearly that was not the case.

Icare9

9th Jun 2014, 16:51

thegypsy: My bad and will be "bourn" in mind in future!
I should have edited with more spacings for better legibility.

Geriaviator

9th Jun 2014, 17:26

Ormeside, please may I join Chugalug in asking for details of the glider pilot's course? Having the basics from the Tiger Moth, did you start with dual instruction on tow? What were the basics of the Horsa handling?

As a little lad at Binbrook I still remember the Horsa delivered by Dakota to land as part of the Battle of Britain display in September 1949. I have the most vivid memory of its snail-slow descent, and realising even at eight years old that any missile whatever would penetrate its flimsy plywood fuselage.

Much later I enjoyed many glider launches as both tug and glider pilot, and often thought of the Horsa crews who never knew when the tow might be dropped and had brief moments to pick a landing site, ample time to collect lumps of flying metal. The bravery and skill of the glider pilots is not always appreciated.

Ormeside28

10th Jun 2014, 13:19

Thank you Chugalug and Geriaviator. I was paired with a Flying Officer at Brize and we stayed together for nearly a year. He had already done two weeks on the Hotspur at Shobden so the emphasis was on him for the Horsa and Hadrian training at Brize. Suffice to say at Brize we had 1 hour 55 mins dual then 25 minutes (two landings) just us. Night flying was 40 minutes dual then 15 minutes and ten minutes just us. Next day 4 dual landingsl and two just us, and that included 2 dual and one us on the Hadrian - 1 hour 35 minutes. Total for Brize was 5 hours and 5 minutes. Hampstead Norris was even less, i hour and five minutes, -not a lot! Then we joined our Glider Pilot Regiment Squadron - "F" at Broadwell.

We were welcomed by our new comrades, most of them had been on D-Day and Arnhem, some on the disasterous Sicily one. They said that they didn't carry passengers, and they trained us in weapons and explosives, taught us to drive jeeps and motor bikes and to generally make ourselves useful to any passengers/ loads we would be carrying.
We were dropped off at night in the wilds and had to evade troops sent to look for us. But the emphasis was on fitness and weapon training.

Broadwell had two resident Dakota Squadrons, 575 and 512. They were heavily engaged in taking supplies in and wounded out fro m the Second Army who were fast approaching the Rhine.

We were issued with khaki battledress, boots and gaiters, Denison Smocks and we wore blue berets and were known as the R.A.F. Element of the Glider Pilot Regiment. We had an Army C.O. at that time who said that we were to wear Army wings and blanco khaki tapes and to wear our battle dress buttoned to the neck. I went to see the Group Captain and he sorted it out, and we were to wear our RAF Wings and tapes and collars and ties. It was no hardship to wear the khaki and smock and it kept us warm in a very cold winter.

MPN11

10th Jun 2014, 14:29

Ormeside28 ... What a fascinating insight you are giving us. :ok:

Danny42C

10th Jun 2014, 21:52

I have from time to time in my Posts referred to a peculiarity of my memory which I have named the "Carlstrom Syndrome" (from its association with the Carlstrom Field in Florida, where I did my Primary Flying training in'41). Here the subject was the view from the air of the domestic camp and hangars, etc. (now long demolished) of the airfield.

During my two months there, I flew 60 hours from it on the "Stearman" trainer, and must have looked down on that camp area a hundred times. Obviously it would have been as familiar to me then as the back of my hand. But two years ago, when I began my story, I was utterly unable to visualise any details of it, not even the plan shape (it was a circle in fact). Not all that surprising, after 70 years, you might think.

But then Chugalug found and printed out on Post an aerial photograph of Carlstrom Camp in its heyday. You would expect my reaction to be immediate, pleased recognition: my memory of it to be instantly refreshed as new. On the contrary, I looked at it baffled, as of a place I'd never seen before. It was as if my memory stubbornly refused to "reinstate" it in its "files", and that still continues: it is as if I'm seeing a strange place for the first time.

Now that is weird enough (are there any psychologists in the House ?), but the story I'm going to tell now seems to indicate that there is a sort of "inverse" Carlstrom in play.

In '65 or '66, the 403 was showing the first signs of age. Specifically, the silky-smooth power take-up from standstill of the "Coupleur Jaeger" was becoming "lumpy" and "snatchy". I am no electrical (or any other kind) of engineer, but the Coupleur was a very simple mechanism, and I knew that the "iron filings" between the two parts of the clutch, were "excited" into scrumming-down together (and so transmitting the drive) by an unregulated voltage from a third brush on the dynamo (no alternators in those days). As the motor speeded-up, so did the dynamo; the voltage increased and 'Bob's yer uncle'.

Clearly the dynamo was the place to look, I had it off and on the dining table (well, it was chilly outside - and I'd put a couple of sheets of newspaper down underneath). I inspected the three "portes-balais" (brush carriers -["broom" carriers in Googlese]). The two main ones were all right, but the third (smaller) job was a poor design. The carbon brush was held down by a sort of bent paper-clip, the bare metal loop on the clip bore directly on the friable graphite brush, the top of this had crumbled; there was my problem.

Clearly some sort of conductive pad was the answer; the morning's milk bottle top was rescued from the gash-bin, washed and a piece cut out, folded to size, and put between paperclip and brush. Put all back: we had our Rolls-Royce once again. "Shame on Peugeot", I thought "I'd always found their engineering to be first-class". Then of course, it struck me. It wasn't their fault at all. Motor manufacturers buy in alternators, starters, batteries and all sorts of electrical widgets from outside firms (in those days Lucas was a prime supplier for British cars). So what French equivalent had done this sub-standard job for Peugeot ? Who cared ? What did it matter ? Why would I even want to find out ? So the matter rested for 50 years, until I got the idea for this Post.

A day or two later, I was thinking about something entirely different. Two names popped up, unbidden, bright and clear - Ducellier and Paris-Rhône ! Checked with Google/Wiki: they're still in business.

Why, oh why on earth, should these two names, which I had no possible reason to remember at all at the time , let alone for a half century, have stayed intact for so long on a sort of dusty old shelf in my memory, when there was absolutely no conceivable reason for them to do so ? Beats me.

Goodnight, all.

Danny42C.

"......and now I come to think of it....!"

herkman

11th Jun 2014, 06:57

Danny both of these companies you mentioned are still in business and when I worked for Fiat in Australia used to supply us with alternators and distributors.

Paris Rhone turned out to be an old fashioned company who did all of their business contact by mail.

On one occasion I had contact with them about pre war stuff for the vintage car club here. Material was no longer on the shelf but they set too and hand built it and sent it down by air at no extra charge. I sent them a book on Australia and after that they bent over backwards and always helped.

Some pictures of their factory they sent was like a step back in time.

Regards

Col

Hummingfrog

11th Jun 2014, 09:25

Ormeside28

I will pass your experience of becoming a glider pilot onto my Dad. He was disappointed to be posted as an instructor but I am sure that the possiblity of becoming a glider pilot would have helped him come to terms with it!

Did you actually take part in any offensive action. From your post I believe that the only major glider action left was the Rhine Crossing?

HF

Chugalug2

11th Jun 2014, 13:50

Ormeside, many thanks for the stats. The words deep-end and thrown-in come to mind! The dual and solo landings were, I assume, following being towed airborne. Or were they? The cost and complication of such an arrangement makes me wonder if a mega-winch launch, a la Air Cadets gliders, could have substituted for the Dak etc. No doubt a gauche and laughable suggestion, but it just goes to prove my ignorance in these matters.

The Hastings I think was designed in part as a Glider Tug, the release eye being stowed in the rear lamp cluster, or so I was told. It was certainly required by the Army to be a tail wheel aircraft, in contrast to its civilian sister, the Hermes, perhaps for that reason and also because that gave the clearance between the main wheels to hang a beam from which in turn could be hung a 25pdr(?) gun and jeep to tow it. The load was released, and hence the parachute deployed, by means of a lavatory chain affair above the co-pilot position. He hung onto this chain on every take off in this role, and if so much as a cough was heard on i/c he evidently quickly pulled it, because an engine failure below Safety Speed was very bad news anyway but in this config would have been certain death.

In commemoration of D-Day, Avialogs have an Air Assault package designed for you personally, Ormeside:-

Latest documents published | Avialogs (http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/en/latest-documents/avialogs/latest-documents-published.html)

Simply click on the appropriate link and the Horsa Pilots Notes etc will be revealed, to scroll through as required (only subscribers though can download them).

Danny, the human brain is complex and unpredictable. However, I am long since resigned to being a '20 minuter', ie when trying to remember the name of someone who crops up in conversation the trick is to give up trying to do so and 20 minutes later (give or take) it suddenly comes to mind. In that respect alone it can be both annoying and predictable!

PS, After a brief Google, this should show the latest satellite image of Carlstrom, with a brief history of the site since your time. I believe that the juvenile correctional facility has now closed as well:-

http://wikimapia.org/1620714/Desoto-County-Juvenile-Correctional-Complex

http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=27.137330&lon=-81.801088&z=17&m=b&permpoly=1620714

Danny42C

11th Jun 2014, 16:59

herkman,

Col, it is nice to hear of a firm behaving in the way nearly all firms did 70 years ago. The Customer was King then: the ones who chose to forget this soon went out of business...D.

Ormeside,

The whole glider business has always seemed highly fraught to me. A forced landing every time ! Not for this child !......D.

Chugalug,

Thanks for the two links. It is nice to see that the first pic in the first one was of a Stearman over the WW2 camp, and I suppose a "Juvenile Correctional Facility" was not all that far away from a USAAC Flight School !

There has been an enormous amount of new building in the second link, but an outline of the old circle was still visible, but I couldn't see the old swimming pool, which was in the exact centre as I recall. But it was all a long, long time ago; and memory does play strange tricks, as we both know all too well....D.

Cheers, all. Danny.

Ormeside28

11th Jun 2014, 21:28

Thank you Chugalug for the Horsa Pilots Notes. The Hastings did have a "tow rope" position in the tail, but by the time it came into service all the gliders had gone. We did, in fact have a jeep and trailer on a carrier under the nose, and I went to Abingdon as a co-pilot for the trials and then we dropped them in an exercise in the Canal Zone in 1952, but it was not a happy load and caused a lot of "waffle", but I will get back to Broadwell in January 1945.
We flew for 4 hours and 50 minutes in January, 9 sorties of which two of 1hour 30 and 1 hour 35 were "Balbos" using a number of our Horsas and landing en masse on Broadwell. The other trips were just single circuits. It must be remembered that it took quite a lot of effort to line up the glider and tug and there was a lot of waiting to fly. I managed a couple of trips in a Dakota to experience the problems of towing. On take off it was necessary for the Horsa to be kept as low as possible until there was definite climb from the Dakota. Once airborne and settled the technique was to use the clear vision panel and position the dakota as an artificial horizon. You would lower the Horsa until slight buffeting from the slipstream of the Dakota under the Horsa and then fly the clear vision panel. That was in the high tow position. Attached to the tow rope was a cord which was connected to an instrument in the cockpit (Horsa) known as the "Angle of dangle" to be used in the low tow in cloud and would give a reasonable indication of an horizon. The tow rope on the Mark 1 Horsa was attached to a connection in each wing, and to release the aircraft must be in "High Tow or the cockpit would be clobbered! In the low tow the technique was to come up until buffeting was felt on top! The Mk 2 Horsa had a single connection in the nose.
February we did 3 hours 25 on the Mk 1 and 15 minutes on the Mark 2.,all day and including another "Balbo" of 1 hour 30.
We still kept up our trips to the ranges, and escape and evasion etc.
By March we knew that an Operation was looming. We did another "Balbo" then an exercise carrying 21 members of the Parachute Regiment who decided that they would rather jump. A final rehearsal for what we "knew" was to be the Rhine crossing where we took a jeep and a trailer and eight members of the Royal Ulster Rifles for a two hour trip. We wer given leave from which I was recalled. My father took me to the station, put his head in the carriage window and said, dont forget, keep your head down. He had been in the 14/18!!

smujsmith

12th Jun 2014, 23:29

Ormeside,

Smashing post sir, and your use of the terms High and low tow, will definately resonate with those of us who have flown gliders through the years. I'm sure there's more to come, keep it going please.

Smudge:ok:

Hummingfrog

13th Jun 2014, 11:32

Well I think it may be time to post some more pics from Dad's album of his time in Terell.

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk68/squadron72/Dad%20Terrell/Terrell%20posted/ATCockpit_zps1520f6d2.jpg (http://s277.photobucket.com/user/squadron72/media/Dad%20Terrell/Terrell%20posted/ATCockpit_zps1520f6d2.jpg.html)http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk68/squadron72/Dad%20Terrell/Terrell%20posted/AT6Takeoff_zps2a26c621.jpg (http://s277.photobucket.com/user/squadron72/media/Dad%20Terrell/Terrell%20posted/AT6Takeoff_zps2a26c621.jpg.html)http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk68/squadron72/Dad%20Terrell/Terrell%20posted/AT6Landing_zps334ba979.jpg (http://s277.photobucket.com/user/squadron72/media/Dad%20Terrell/Terrell%20posted/AT6Landing_zps334ba979.jpg.html)http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk68/squadron72/Dad%20Terrell/Terrell%20posted/AT6FltLine2_zpsd01377a8.jpg (http://s277.photobucket.com/user/squadron72/media/Dad%20Terrell/Terrell%20posted/AT6FltLine2_zpsd01377a8.jpg.html)

These are pictures of the AT6 cockpit, takeoff, landing and flight line.

HF

Pom Pax

13th Jun 2014, 16:00

Just watched "Burma my father and the forgotten army" an account of Griff Rhys Jones father's WWII story.
At 32:00 there is a brief bombing sequence. Three different types of aircraft, is the 2nd one a Vengeance?

Ormeside28

13th Jun 2014, 16:44

We were flown in our Dakotas to Gosfield in Essex where me met our new Mk 11 Horsa's, our passengers and load and our towing crew who we knew already. We were very well briefed and assured that the 2nd Army would have established a bridgehead on the east bank of the Rhine before we took off. The first twelve gliders of "F" Squadron were to contain Coup de Main parties to capture the bridges over the Issel Canal to stop German heavy armour getting towards the beachhead on the Rhine. We and the remainder of the Squadron were to take units of the 6th Air Landing Brigade. Our load was a mortar section of the Ox and Bucks Regiment and comprised seven men and a Lieutenant, a Jeep and trailer and a motor bike. It was easy to load the Mk 11 as the whole cockpit swung.There were two metal troughs in the aircraft to take the Vehicles and two troughs which fitted on to the front of the open fuselage to enable them to be driven up and secured. The two troughs were then disconnected and laid alongside the ones containing the vehicles and, we hoped, properly secured!! Take off was at 6 am on March 24th 1945, and off we went to war.

harrym

13th Jun 2014, 16:59

Greetings Danny42C, Chugalug2 and all other friends - here follows the next instalment. If my scribblings seem to sometimes state the obvious or ramble a bit, please bear in mind that they were first set down for the benefit of family and close friends, who are usually less knowledgeable on aviation and service matters than us cognoscenti; as it is, I have lightly edited them.

PART 4----MARKING TIME.

As seen from the Louis Pasteur's promenade deck in early April '44, even by northern standards wartime Liverpool looked exceptionally grim. However the port was probably busier than ever before (or since), it being common knowledge that the long awaited Second Front was not far away; shipping of all shapes and sizes lay everywhere, while on the crowded quaysides tiny tank engines banged trucks endlessly to & fro, their diminutive size exciting some ribald comment from our Canadian fellow passengers.

But to us Brits the Mersey scene looked just GREAT, for not only was it Blighty, we would soon be off this accursed Frog tub on which we had just passed the most uncomfortable week of our lives. Possessing an unenviable reputation for breakdown due to its temperamental Gallic machinery (a highly undesirable trait when crossing U-Boat infested waters), the French love of mechanical complexity for its own sake as expressed by the ship's electric transmission was probably too much for simple British seamen. We would be glad to wave the Pasteur good-bye anyway, for it rolled far worse than the Queen Mary of fond memory, while its crowded mess-decks and dreadful food had made wartime UK seem like a paradise in anticipation. As for the delights of sleeping in a hammock with neighbours' unwashed feet to either side of one's face, or the unspeakable sanitary "facilities" where the ship's roll had to be nicely judged prior to entry, the less said the better.

Despite docking in late afternoon, disembarkation was not until the following dawn, the first thrill of the day to encounter HM Customs. A large force of tough-looking and uncompromising officers, plainly more accustomed to dealing with merchant seamen of the rougher sort, minutely examined our few miserable possessions before grudgingly permitting re-entry to our own country; following which, our crowd of weary but happy young hopefuls boarded a nondescript train drawn up at the Riverside Station.

During our toiling passage up through a long and noisome tunnel I must have fallen asleep, for my next clear memory is of passing through what must have been Manchester Exchange station; after which the mind goes blank again, until the next recollection is of emerging from another long tunnel and running down an industrialized, smog-filled valley towards Leeds. However following a halt in one of the city’s cavernous stations the aspect became increasingly pleasant during the final run to Harrogate, where the RAF had a large holding facility for newly-qualified aircrew awaiting advanced training. Presumably officialdom had chosen this spa town because of its large number of now-redundant hotels, so I was not unduly surprised to find ourselves marching to the Majestic, Harrogate's largest and certainly one of its most prestigious. An unlovely turn of the century building of rather grimy red brick, it occupied (and still does) a good site overlooking the central valley just off the Ripon road, well placed for the town centre and whatever it might offer.

This included large numbers of bars and public houses of a superior nature, pleasant gardens and fairly genial inhabitants; just as well, as it soon became clear that for most of us the wait would be a long one. The BCAP's efficient mass production of aircrew had considerably exceeded operational losses (horrendous though they were), so the net result was a gross bottleneck that would apparently keep us sitting around for many months yet. Thus it was with mixed feelings that I found myself assigned as a potential flying instructor; like most of my ilk I would have preferred operational duties, on the other hand those selected as possible QFI's were destined to pass on from Harrogate fairly quickly as compared with the rest. One's vanity was also flattered as only those with above average assessments were thus chosen, and so I accepted my likely fate without demur.

To keep us occupied, and also moderately proficient in our newly acquired skills, some so-called pre-Advanced Flying Units had been set up at various now largely redundant EFTS's. Equipped as they were with the ubiquitous and ever-green Tiger Moth, these establishments excited some derision from us their customers while at the same time they no doubt provided a diet of endless boredom for our long-suffering instructors who mostly would have much rather been on "ops". However they served a very useful purpose, enabling us to maintain sleight of hand and eye whilst simultaneously making use of large numbers of surplus training aircraft at comparatively small cost. Thus in company with about thirty others I found myself at No.16 EFTS Burnaston, about halfway between Derby and Burton-on-Trent. Fated nearly a half-century on to become a greenfield site for Toyota's British factory, it was a long-established school of flying now commanded by its wartime-commissioned owner-manager, a highly convenient if questionable arrangement for both man & RAF. Here, for the next three weeks, we renewed acquaintance with the doubtful joys of open-cockpit flight.
.
Despite its diminutive size the Tiger Moth was a hard taskmaster, and in bashing it endlessly about the skies of Derbyshire we no doubt acquired further skills in basic handling whilst simultaneously cursing its wayward nature. May 1944 weather was typically bleak and also rather brisk, so the acute discomforts of aviation en plein air had to be stoically endured as we braved the icy draughts and diabolical seating of this airborne instrument of torture. No small aircraft is pleasant to fly in rough conditions, the Tiger less so than most, and its skittish behaviour allied to extremely light stick forces demanded delicate handling if it were to give of its best. Sadly our motley lot were I fear often found wanting in this respect, however the opportunity was there for those who cared.

Given the Tiger's combination of insufficient power and tricky flying qualities, plus an antipathy to inverted flight common to both myself and aircraft, I tended to avoid aerobatics when solo, instead finding it preferable to head north and go cloud-bashing in the area around Dovedale and Ashbourne. Due to the predominantly showery weather there was usually no shortage of nice cumulus cloud around which to turn, twist and dive, and when tired of that the scenery below was magnificent, a delightful contrast to the prairies of recent memory; less enjoyable however, was instrument flight training, in the Tiger an experience that might have been dreamed up by the Spanish Inquisition. Basic in the extreme, flight instrumentation consisted of airspeed indicator, altimeter (single needle), turn & slip, and magnetic compass; nothing so modern as artificial horizon or directional gyro, so that (in turbulent conditions especially) any attempt to maintain accurate progress became an exercise in refined torture. What with the compass swinging wildly at every control input, altitude deviation detectable only by speed excursions (the altimeter so insensitive as to be useless for this purpose), turn & slip needles skidding about at every bump and the instructor binding away down the "Gosport Tube", IF was dreaded and loathed by all; whether or not it served any useful purpose when practiced under such primitive conditions is open to doubt.

The war was now approaching its peak, with D-Day occurring soon after our arrival, however up here in the North Midlands there was little or no sign of the tremendous fleets of aircraft frequently observed when on leave down South, These were normally of two types; either USAAF bombers en route to a job or transport aircraft (many towing gliders) practising for an airborne forces operation. Additionally, at all times myriad aircraft of all shapes and sizes crisscrossed the sky, and so keen awareness of other traffic when in flight was a necessary prerequisite for survival; indeed it remains a constant source of amazement to me that there were so few collisions, I suppose the relatively low speeds of those days had a lot to do with it. Everyone seemed to fly cross-country at 2000ft. QFE, except when forced higher by terrain (and then not always), right of way usually going to the boldest and to hell with rules of the air. Later on, when flying (say) an Oxford or DC3 in cloud one often felt the characteristic wallowy bump of someone else's wake turbulence, disregarding it with an insouciance appalling by present-day standards.

Two episodes from this time stick in my memory, both while on leave at home (Oxford). In the first instance I recall as if yesterday a bright spring morning when literally hundreds of B17's and B24's in tight groups of about thirty each wheeled and circled above the city as they clawed for height, before finally setting out for some target in one truly massive formation - it was one of the most impressive sights I have ever seen, enhanced by the knowledge of witnessing history in the making. As may be imagined, with hundreds of big radials running at high power the noise was quite indescribable, it was as if one was entirely encompassed by overwhelming, earth-shaking sound. But such occasions had an inevitable down side, and it was not uncommon to see stragglers returning home later in the day well shot up, with gaping holes and feathered props, well away from their East Anglian bases and probably lost into the bargain.

Another spectacle, common during the pre-invasion period and also prior to the Arnhem & Rhine operations, were vast loose formations of Dakotas plus (sometimes) other types such as the Albemarle or Halifax flying at a few hundred feet and often with gliders in tow. Once I watched such a fleet pass over Oxford at dusk, all i/d & navigation lights illuminated, and as US-built aircraft customarily carried profuse external lighting the effect was that of a giant Christmas tree.

Our three weeks at Derby over, it was back to Harrogate* and the Majestic; soon after which, one unfortunate suffered a sad end. In theory supposed to return to the hotel by 10 pm or thereabouts on pain of some mild penalty, most of us preferred to avoid any beady-eyed RAF Police at the reception desk by scaling one of the exterior fire escapes. Like the majority using this facility, the gentleman in question was fairly well stoned and had no doubt experienced a loss of equilibrium when near the top; following which, higher authority appealed (vainly) for potential defaulters to use more orthodox methods of entry and accept the consequences in proper British fashion.

* Oddly enough I had strong family connections with the town, for not only had my father been born there, my paternal grandfather had been one of its GP's when the Spa was at its Edwardian zenith. The doctor who later took over the practice from him was still there in the same house, and with the same housekeeper; to me he was very hospitable, and thanks to him I enjoyed several outings or parties that made a pleasant change from the routine of daily boredom. He is now of course long gone but the house is still there, somewhat truncated and sadly converted to offices, but another link to the past survives in my uncle's name inscribed on the town's war memorial as a 1916 victim of WW1.

Danny42C

13th Jun 2014, 18:50

Hummingfrog,

Nice pictures - takes you back ! Just a few words of comment, perhaps - and I'm sure your Dad will bear me out:

The panel:

Note the hole in the top right corner. In the AT6A, this housed the 0.300 Browning, with its cocking handle sticking out back in the cockpit.

Lower left: the rotary mags/battery isolation switch. It read: "Off-Bat-L-R-Both". All the US radials I flew behind had this arrangement, one twist and you could kill everything (useful at times !)

Second from left at top: this panel-mounted (and usually incorrect) thing was all you had to navigate with: it was a wonder we ever found our destinations ! Even at the best of times, all you could do was set it to the nearest 5 degrees and guess the rest for the DI setting.

Note the "double ball", which so puzzled me in the Mk.IV VV. (Why, for pity's sake ?)

Note "cage-ing" (or was it just the setting ?) knob for the AH (this could prove interesting on a night T.O. if you'd forgotten to uncage it and were relying on it for attitude).

"Landing ?" I hope not ! (No flap, stbd leg looks dodgy to me). Think it's the T.O. a few seconds earlier.

Happy days ! Danny.

Danny42C

13th Jun 2014, 19:15

Pom Pax,

No (the fin/rudder outline is wrong - VV is much bigger and angular). But not sure what it was. Anybody ? EDIT II: (as no offers yet - P40 ?)

Could the first be a Lockheed Lightning ? :confused: EDIT I: Of course not ! 1 and 3 are B-25 "Mitchells".

At around 31.00 note the (very useful) Monsoon Cape. And a bit later the back-pack "Flamenwerfers" (to dig out dug-in Japs)

Danny.

Danny42C

13th Jun 2014, 23:09

harrym,

I'm sorry the Customs in my home city "did you over" so comprehensively on your return to UK. Perhaps you should have copied my plan (and arranged to have a case of vaccination-resistant smallpox in the "Louis Pasteur" on the way home).

They couldn't get rid of us fast enough. They didn't check a thing. Our feet didn't touch the ground in the Customs shed ! :ok:

Is there anyone among the "WW2 Brevet Gainers" who didn't do some time in the "Majestic" ? (now returned, I'm told, to its pre-war glory).

Great stuff ! (and Hummingfrog, Ormeside, Ian B-B et al, of course).

Cheers, Danny.

harrym

14th Jun 2014, 15:08

Hummingfrog, your pic of the AT6 panel and its haphazard instrument layout is a reminder that was one thing we Brits did better - our standard 6-dial IF panel, common to all UK aircraft, was vastly superior to the then usual US shambles of a layout that not only varied from one type to another, but often between aircraft of the same type. Also, that rotary ignition switch of the kind that had a master 'off' postion always seemed to me a disaster in waiting; for what would happen if there were a short or similar fault in the switch or its connecting cable(s)?

Having said that, I did find the Dakota's cockpit to be a far more comfortable environment than that of any home-built bird, as will be seen later on in this saga.

Danny42C. No our contingent on the Pasteur arrived in good health, despite the indifferent fare provided on voyage! Anyway, later experience has proved that other countries provide Customs officials notably worse than those of Liverpool - for instance, ever experienced the US variety on a bad day?

Fareastdriver

14th Jun 2014, 17:24

Danny.

You entertained us with you stories about your trusty Bond Three-wheeler.
Sculling around China I was in Chongqing for a few days and the three-wheelers there are still going strong as the Chang An. This one was private but a lot of them were used as taxis.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/P_20140612_153141_zps2137fda6.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/P_20140612_153141_zps2137fda6.jpg.html)

The sound footprint suggested that it had a motorcycle engine in the back but as Chongqing is very hilly it can obviously cope with four up.

Where there is a need there is a way

MPN11

14th Jun 2014, 19:13

Don't mock small cars ... I have a Peugeot iOn :)

Hummingfrog

14th Jun 2014, 20:23

Talking about cars - Dad has this shooting brake as the "bloodwagon" at Terrell. Not sure if it could be as it isn't marked as such but in wartime anything goes:ok:

HF

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk68/squadron72/Dad%20Terrell/Terrell%20posted/bloodwagon_zps22aab65a.jpg (http://s277.photobucket.com/user/squadron72/media/Dad%20Terrell/Terrell%20posted/bloodwagon_zps22aab65a.jpg.html)

Danny42C

14th Jun 2014, 23:23

harrym,

Never having gone back to the States since '42, I can't offer an opinion. As for troopship rations, I regret to say that, on arrival in Bombay, we showed our appreciation of the Sgt-cook's efforts by presenting him with a plaque on which we had fashioned a 3-D "Most Highly Derogatory Order of the Irremovable Digit" * (out of moulded dough, baked crisp and then coloured). I hope he saw the joke and has kept it among his souveniers.

Note * Wiki has the "Highly Derogatory Order" story, but, alas, no pictures....D.

Fareastdriver,

Your picture from Chungking looks like a very neat design more akin to the Isetta than the Bond, which I must admit was too light and flimsy to survive in today's traffic conditions (although that ridiculous Sinclair C-5 thing was taken quite seriously for a while a few years ago).

But the more substantial "Put-Puts", which took over from the rickshaws in the Far East, showed the obvious way to a cheap, urban taxi. And the single front wheel would allow the design of very short turning circle to enable U-turns in an urban street (à la the old London cabs)...D.

MPN11,

Vive les automobiles Peugeot ! I reckon our old 403 to have been far away the best car of my life...D. :ok:

Hummingfrog,

Looks like a "special" LWB (cut'n shut ?) conversion based on a straight-eight something. Any guesses ?...D.

Cheers, all. Danny.

Fareastdriver

15th Jun 2014, 01:00

The mascot on the hood which look like an Indian's head with the feathers trailing, plus the fact that it's big and therefore in the upper class range, suggest to me that it's a Pontiac.

I'll take you to task comparing the Chang An to the Isetta or a Tuc Tuc. The Isetta had two seats at the front behind the door. This ensured that you would both be the first to arrive at the inevitable accident and when that happened you could not get out because the door was jammed in your face. The Chang An is built like a car and looks the same inside as opposed to the three wheel TucTucs prevalent in India.

At the end of the last century there were some pretty horrific lashups burbling around China but the rules are now pretty draconian so now it has to be properly constructed.

Danny42C

15th Jun 2014, 16:55

Fareastdriver,

Ah, for the keen eyes of youth ! Even with max zoom I can see only a shapeless blur. There is something on the spare wheel cover which might be "Pontiac".

It's a fair cop, Guv ! I must admit that you were very close to the accident in an Isetta. The solution was not to have an accident ! I intended only to imply that the Isetta was a far more solid device than the Bond (which was really a jumped-up scooter).

The Chang An is clearly a much more sophisticated design, four doors are obyiously a requirement for a taxi, and it has more in common with the "Reliant" and its derivatives (might sell well in Uk if the price is right).

Danny.

Chugalug2

15th Jun 2014, 19:15

Ormeside, I am greatly impressed by your revelation that you have released a jeep/trailer combination on airdrop from a Hastings (on reflection perhaps there never was a gun, and it simply got added in the telling?) Whatever you had hanging there as an external load I suspect that it was not alone in being 'not happy' and that you were mightily relieved to be well shot of it with the 'green on'.

Most will know of course, but Balbo meaning a large aircraft formation refers to Marshal Italo Balbo of the Regia Aeronautica Italiana. He was famed as having twice led large formations of Savoia-Marchetii S55 flying boats; 12 in 1930 from Italy to Rio, 24 in 1933 from Rome to Chicago! He died 28 June 1940 when he was shot down by his own anti aircraft guns at Tobruk (the RAF had been there just beforehand):-
Italo Balbo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo_Balbo)
If he had still been around in 1944/45, I think he might have been impressed at just how large a Balbo could be!

You say that you already knew your towing crew for the Rhine, so a tow and glider crew were paired with each other? Makes sense if so, as they could train and co-ordinate their flying accordingly. You leave us hanging onto the proverbial cliff edge. Not for too long I hope!

harrym, your reservations about the Tiger Moth I would not care to challenge, (especially from one who trained QFI's!). I can only say that as a mere CCF cadet on a Flying Scholarship course at Thruxton in the late 50's, she was a veritable moonrocket! That was of course in comparison to our normal steed, the Thruxton Jackaroo. Now that was a lemon, with all the urge that might be assumed after a perfectly good Tiger Moth was broadened out to contain a supposedly 4 seater cabin in place of the two open cockpits. As it wasn't aerobatic we were able to don the Biggles type outfits provided and go learn about stalling and recovery in the real thing!

Hummingfrog, great pictures! Could the Blood Wagon that you show be the result of yet more proof of two nations being divided by a common language? Might it not be an Ambulance as we would expect, but something more macabre, a Hearse? It certainly has the gravitas of one, and are there not curtains at the rear?

Pom Pax, thanks for the Griff Rhys Jones film link. I must admit I did not know of the Gold Coast Regiment in Burma. You live and you learn...

Ormeside28

15th Jun 2014, 19:22

We coasted out over Selsey Bill, avoided Dunkirk, still occupied,turning point over Waterloo and on to the Rhine. We had already been "undertaken " by the Dakotas carrying the paras, and now they were returning having dropped their loads. They had been knocked about so we knew that we were for it.
Montys barrage,a bombing attack on Wesel and German smoke generators made it very difficult to see our landing zone. We were at 2500 feet, just right for the 88s. We pulled off from our Dak and headed down. We were badly hit and lost the air bottle in the cockpit so no flaps or brakes but P put it down fast, nose wheel came up through the floor and we eventually halted. Unfortunately we couldn't unload through the front obviously, but I managed to unscrew the rear fuselage and tail, four nuts and bolts, spanner supplied! Luckily nobody was hurt, shaken but unwounded. Our passengers left us, ( they later relieved Belsen), and we made our way to our rendezvous in a farm house with some of the remainder of the Squadron. We were then sent to the perimeter near the station and dug in. All the 6th Airborne objectives were secured by midday, lots of prisoners, one was said to have told his captor"" what kept you, we expected you earlier!" The rest of the day we spent finding out what happened to the rest of the Squadron and watching 2nd TAF Typhoons rocketing armour not too far from our front. That night one of the bridges had to be blown to stop armour and some of our chaps were captured and ended up on the long march towards the end of the war.
Sunday passed with a few incursions, one tank was beaten off by the Royal Ulster Rifles on the unblown bridge nearby, but they had a 17 pounder gun which was able to see it off. Sunday night was a noisy one but at dawn a Scottish Regiment took over our trenches and we retired to Divisional HQ where we made ourselves useful. All the 2nd Army armour passed through to "our" bridge and a splendid sight it looked. Once that was clear we were able to cross the Rhine on the Bailey bridge And transport took us to a tented camp at Kevelaer, on the Siegfried line -very impressive! We travelled via Xanten and Goch , virtually wiped out. After a couple of days we were taken to Helmond and then to Eindhoven where our Dakotas took us back to Fairford. Broadwell sent transport over to take us to a party, everybody took part and it was quite a "do". We lost a lot of our Squadron killed and wounded. In all the Glider Pilot Regiment lost 98 pilots killed of which 58 were R.A.F. Most of the survivors of
"F" Squadron were transferred to "E" Squadron at Down Ampney, We had a few days leave and went to Booker for a couple of weeks flying our beloved Tiger Moths, and then to Shobden for two weeks flying the Hotspur.

Fareastdriver

16th Jun 2014, 10:28

That makes passing time by discussing cars seem pretty insignificant.

Danny42C

16th Jun 2014, 15:04

Chugalug,

The Thruxton Jackaroo had a forerunner in the shape of the DH83 "Fox-moth", which specialised in 5-minute, 5-bob "joyrides" at many a seaside beach up to and after the war (except that it was 10-bob then). I always thought that it had a 4-seat cabin, but Wiki tells me there were only three. The owner/pilots used to fairly rake it in on a sunny afternoon - the queue of customers reaching right down the beach.

"Blood Wagon" was universally used as a name for the ambulance. But I must admit that this thing does look more like a hearse (and surely they could have found a lick of white paint and done a Red Cross if it was an ambulance ?). Hummingfrog will tell us, I'm sure.

81 (West African) Division were with us in S.Arakan (possibly the same outfit)....D.

Ormeside28 and Fareastdriver,

Yes, our ramblings about Bonds, Isettas and Chang Ans do seem rather small beer in this context, don't they ? Yet they all have their place in our Cyber Crewroom, in which our wise Moderators have allowed us seemingly unlimited scope - with the result that now we have one of the most popular and best supported Threads on PPRuNe.

Ormeside, you really were hiding behind the sofa when soft jobs were being handed out, weren't you ? Not content with being dragged round the sky on the end of a piece of string, cast adrift at the mercy of gravity, then when you did get down having to take your aircraft to bits to get the cargo out, then have to go to war with it, sounds like poor sport to me. But then: "serves you right, shouldn't have joined if......". (And wasn't it in your bit of the fracas that the well loved "Professor" Jimmy Edwards picked up his DFC ?)

Truly: "We each had to fight the War we were given" . You didn't choose your war - it chose you . Some of us had it (relatively) easy - you clearly had drawn the short straw !...D.

Cheers all, Danny.

Ian Burgess-Barber

16th Jun 2014, 17:00

I have two problems in telling the story of my father “Gaining an R.A.F. Pilot's Brevet in WW11”.

I never knew my Father. He died when I was just four months old, so, sadly, I have no memories of him at all.
His first log book is lost, so all I have is his 'Air Forces in India' canvas-covered log book which starts 1st March 1944 at RAF Mauripur with 317.45 hours carried forward.

I do have the sheet from 3 EFTS (June 1942) showing his first 12.20 hours before he was shipped off to 5 BFTS in Florida. I think that he went out on the 'Thomas H Barry' (Aug.-Sept.1942), I know that he arrived in Clewiston Florida 25.09 1942 for Course 11. If you visit the 5 BFTS website <5bfts.org.uk> and click on Courses, then on the Course 11 arrival picture, he is on the front row, (Burgess G). He, and two other Course 11 cadets, fell ill immediately (no immunity to a US virus) and were hospitalised and later sent off base to recuperate. They then joined Course 12 (12.11.1942 ) which was the first Course to “blend” USAAC cadets with the RAF trainees. They gained their wings 25.05.1943 and came back to Blighty on (Yes, you've guessed it), the “Louis Pasteur” late June 1943.
Now, lacking his first log book, a bit of a mystery ensues.
I cannot find out where my Dad went to OTU. As I have said, all I have is his 'Air Forces in India' log book which starts with 317.45 hours carried forward. 212.20 of that is single engined time from 3 EFTS (UK) and 5 BFTS (USA), so, he acquired 105.25 hours multi engine time somewhere in the UK before he arrived in India. However the only entry in the record of service in the back of the log book, between his US training and his arrival in India, (apart from distribution centres like Moncton ,Harrogate and Blackpool) is 6 (P)AFU Little Rissington. This (Danny tells me) is strange, as you would not spend more than 20-25 hours with an AFU, before going on to an OTU for 75-80 hours specific training. However no OTU appears on his record of service. Every other place that he served in, from joining the RAF in 1938 to his last posting in 1946, is there in the record of service at the back of his log - why would he omit the OTU?
Even the green RAF record card that I have before me which records “Unit From - Unit To” and “Mustering” etc. Reads as follows:
6 (P) AFU 3/8/43
A Chedworth 15/9/43 (Hospital admission)?
6 (P) AFU 6/10/43
This next line has been crossed out, but I think it might have said, 1517 BAT FLT
5PDC 4/12/43 (From where he was sent to India).
So the OTU remains a mystery.

Here are the bare facts (as per the Appointment Record card) of his RAF service.

He enlisted as an A/C Apprentice at Halton 30/8/38 (seven & a half weeks before his 16th Birthday).
Was placed as an U/T Instrument Maker 1/9/38 at No1 E&W School Cranwell.
Appointed Leading Apprentice 17/5/40
Mustered Instrument Maker 1 and classified AC2 3/7/40 At No.1(C))OTU Silloth
Re-enlisted at age 18 for 12 year RAF 22/10/40
Reclassified AC1 1/12/40
Reclassified LAC 17/2/41
Promoted T/ CPL 5/5/41
Remustered U/T Pilot 19/1/42
Promoted T/SGT & Remustered Pilot 25/5/43
Promoted T/F/SGT 25/5/44
Promoted T/W/O 25/4/45
Commisioned P/O 25/8/45
Confirmed in Appt. Promoted F/O 25/2/46

That's enough for now.

Ian BB

PS Danny, your last: "We each had to fight the War we were given" . You didn't choose your war - it chose you "

It really was pure luck as to where you ended up - you went where you were sent. From reading his log book, it was my Dad's luck to never see a shot fired in anger during his wartime service - his luck ran out early in 1948.

Danny42C

16th Jun 2014, 20:40

Ian B-B,

Although we can't trace it, the 105 hrs unaccounted for must include an OTU (Twin as you surmise). As I said before, they wouldn't have sent him out to India without one (what would have been the point ?) The time fits very nicely: 25 hrs AFU (to re-accustom him to UK wartime conditions) plus 75 at an OTU.

As for OCTU, that must be anybody's guess. It ranged from none at all (as in my case), where I was effectively "commissioned in the Field", through the home operational squadrons (where it was pretty well the same, but there might have been a quick Course somewhere to teach you how to tie a bow tie and pass the Port to the left (but never heard of such a thing, now I come to think of it). You'd have to ask someone who served the War years in UK.

When you finished our SFTS, you just got your A/PO or a Sgts' stripes (acccording to their taste). In the Arnold Schools in the US, there was this fiction that their Flight School constituted an OCTU in its own right (and all successful US Cadets ended as 2/Lieuts - but that did not apply to us ! - we just got a set of USAAC wings as a Consolation Prize).

But Clewiston was a BFTS, not an Arnold School, so British rules would apply to us (but not the obligatory 20% of US Cadets there, who apparently got the best of both worlds, all ending as 2/Lieuts with both sets of wings !

Confused ? - Join the Club ! Danny.

Chugalug2

16th Jun 2014, 22:23

Ormeside, your post re the Rhine Crossing operation was short and to the point, yet if anything it all the better emphasised how violent and arbitrary war really is. It is very clear that being in that Horsa was a very dangerous place to be, truly a sitting duck for those ravenous 88's. That you all emerged unscathed is remarkable and entirely due to you chaps up front, I'm sure. All those months training in the UK, in North America, and back in the UK again, were preparation for that one flight and its violent arrival at the LZ. They clearly paid off!

There is a tendency to consider the Allied advance through Western Europe as an inevitable outcome, maybe a hiccup or two at Arnhem or the Ardennes, but on the whole pretty well a foregone conclusion. It was of course nothing of the sort, and your description of your part in one of the major component parts of that hard fought and bloody campaign brings that right home.

Gliders, like transport aircraft, are not at the glamour end of military aviation, but they were a vital part of the success of D-Day and the Rhine crossing. They were also mauled terribly at Arnhem as you remind us. We can but remember such duty and sacrifice, pay tribute to the fallen, and to the survivors such as yourself say a heartfelt thank you.

Thank you indeed, Ormeside28.

Ian Burgess-Barber

17th Jun 2014, 09:59

Danny your last: "When you finished our SFTS, you just got your A/PO or a Sgts' stripes (acccording to their taste)".

The figures for Dad's Course 12 at Clewiston were these;

83 RAF Cadets started, 9 washed-out, 2 were killed in training, 57 graduated as NCOs and 15 as Officers.

17 USAAC Cadets started, 1 washed-out, 16 graduated (all as officers with US silver wings, pinned left side, and the RAF wings, right side).

Ian BB (or as you prefer B-B)

Ormeside28

17th Jun 2014, 18:47

Thank you Danny and Chugalug. Addendai!
1. All but one of the American Cadets on 18 and 19 Courses at Terrell were commissioned. One was a Flight Officer, possible equivalent W.O.
2. Jimmy Edwards was a Flt Lt pilot on one of the Broadwell Dakotas.I don't think that he was famous then, but certainly deserved his D.F.C.
3.Short straw or not, I didn't have to fly 30, or less, ops in Bomber Command.
The Hotspur was built by General Aircraft and was designed to carry 12 soldiers and two pilots. Luckily never on operations as the back would have been very crowded and dark. Concrete blocks were fitted to make up weight and to make us very of what a bad landing would mean! We had main wheels and a tail wheel, no brakes, push forward after touch down on to the skid under the nose ( and pilots) would bring us to a halt. The flap lever was to the left of the pilot, pull up to 3 o'clock position would give half flap, and to the 12 o'clock for full flaP.
A nice aeroplane and we were towed by Miles Masters so quite fast. Lots of low flying and a couple of high releases, 9000 feet, given a course to Shobden and released.
VE Day happened whilst we were at Shobden so no more European Ops.
We spent the rest of the summer at Timber Hill Camp on the outskirts of Lyme Regis. We lived in a derelict laundry in the town and made our way each morning to the camp at the top of the hill.
A number of the pilots were sent out to various farms around and a few of us were retained in Lyme Regis. I was lucky enough to become the Squadron despatch rider. My job was to take mail and orders to the "farmers" and go once a week to our Regimental Depot at Fargo for orders. We also used the R.A.F. Marine Craft in the harbour to take ammunition and explosive and dump it in Lyme Bay.
We knew that we were destined for the far east and had several detachments to the Dakota OTU at Leicester East to give the Dakota crews practice in towing, and to keep us in flying practice.
I was on embarkation leave in August when the bombs were dropped on Japan so we didn't go.
We were moved about for a few weeks, interviews for staying on in the R.A.F. and then sent to the R.A.F.Regiment depot at Market Harborough. We had to fill in various forms about weapon training etc. Well, we knew about that but the Regiment thought that we were "taking the Mick" and had us on their ranges etc. Then they sent us on indefinite leave. In January I was posted to 14 PAFU at Wheaton Aston to fly Oxfords. A number of ex P.O.W's obviously had priority, and I was made the Assistant Adjutants Assistant.. My Warrant came through in the June. I was luck enough not to become redundant but due to delays in training I decided to leave the Service when my demob number came up in January 1947...a mistake!!

Danny42C

18th Jun 2014, 00:43

Ian BB (your call, Sir !) and Ormeside,

Ian, I am very interested in the washout rates that you give for Clewiston on your Dad's Course 12. I reckon 11% for the RAF entry, and just 6% for the US Cadets. This is so widely different from the early "Arnold" figures (40%) and some BFTS (30%) that it is difficult to tease out the truth, I'm trying to make sense of it all, and may Post if I ever succeed.

Ormeside, your "odd man out" at Terrell would have been a Warrant Officer, I'm sure. They had them in the US Forces: they wore a gold 2/Lieut's bar with a thin black (?) stripe across the middle. I'm not sure how they were addressed or whether they were saluted.

I should think their lowly status reflected the fact that they hadn't had the minimum two years (IIRC) "College" (better yet, a degree) required for appointment as a Flight "Kay-det". Clearly, this chap had (exceptionally) - I never saw one - come up from the ground ranks in the way many of our pilot trainees had done.

And your: "we were towed by Miles Masters, so quite fast". We had one such on 20 Sqdn at Valley in '50, a Mk III with a radial engine. We had it to tow a drogue target from a hook somewhere below, but we never used it as such (our Beaufighter did all that) and it soon disappeared. I've always been under the impression that I once flew it, but my log has no entry.

Wiki tells me that it was fast, but my recollection of the old Mk.Is on my AFS in '42 does not support this (I would reckon the Harvard faster). But then, we had Spitfire XVIs and Vampires on 20 Sqdn. and everything is relative, I suppose. That it could haul a glider (even a small one) surprises me.

I've lifted two pictues from Wiki to show the 'up' and 'down' positions for the instructor that I mentioned in a Post on this Thread long ago (contrast the head position relative to the fuselage behind in the two shots).

Yes, the Horoshima and Nagasaki bombs took us all by surprise; everything was chaotic after that.

Cheers, Danny

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Miles_Master.jpg/220px-Miles_Master.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Miles_Master.jpg) Mk I (down)
http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.24wmf8/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Miles_Master.jpg)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/IWM-COL198-Master.jpg/300px-IWM-COL198-Master.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IWM-COL198-Master.jpg)Miles M.27 Master III (W8667), No.5 SFTS

(up)

Danny42C

18th Jun 2014, 23:09

As the Courses came in, we laid on a Welcome Party early the second evening, so that the Instructors and their new students could get acquainted before formal lessons began. These were held in the Instructors' Common Room on the first floor of the Main building, and modest alcoholic and non-alcoholic refreshments were laid on.

I particularly remember one such occasion - it must have been in the early years (no exact date) before the influx of new, young entrants had started. Instructors and nearly all the students were still both of the "old" ex-war generation: there were frequent cries of recognition as another pair of old comrades were happily reunited, perhaps for the first time in twenty years.

I'm not sure, but I think that each Instructor was alloted two or three students, to monitor them at least for the first week or two until they'd settled in. In this instance, I got two (names long forgotten) Master Aircrew, a Czech pilot and a British signaller (former Wop/AG), and they could not have been more unlike in appearance. Naturally we were all out of uniform: ranks being of no consequence here.

The Czech's history was a familiar one. In the pre-war Czecho-Slovakian Air Force, he'd got out ahead of the German invasion and across to France. Hardly had he settled there when France collapsed and he'd managed to get away a second time (by devious means) across the Channel to the UK. There the RAF was glad of every pilot they could get their hands on; he flew with the Czech Squadrons, and RAF Transport Command, throughout the war years.

Post-war, he stayed here (like many of his compatriots and the Poles, well knowing the likely reception they'd get from the new Communist Governments), naturalised, married and stayed in the RAF till retirement. A remarkable thing was that he'd managed to continue in one flying appointment after another, never doing a ground tour (I suppose there wasn't much they could do with him); his last job being with the Hastings Met flights out of Aldergrove before he came to us.

I gathered that he'd not exactly "volunteered" for ATC: he struck me as a little, wizened, prematurely "old" man, seemed taciturn and uncommunicative in the extreme, and by no means happy with his posting to Shawbury. "We're going to have trouble here", I mused.

The other (Master Signaller) was the complete reverse. Sleek, assured and confident in a well-cut blue pinstipe, he was the very image of a successful businessman. He was happy with his transfer to the Branch (I don't know what he'd been doing before), and was keen to get started and "make a go of it". In other words, an ideal candidate. "This one'll be no problem", was my immediate assessment.

To cut a long story short, what we got was the exact opposite of our expectations. The seemingly "bolshie" Czech turned out, in fact, to be "as bright as a button". You only had to tell him a thing once, and he'd got it. Quick thinking and resourceful, he romped through the "Mock" exercises in the face of all we could throw at him. (Of course his long and varied flying experience in war and peace could not but help enormously in this respect; we began to see why the RAF had kept him on the flight deck for so long - he was simply too valuable a man there to lose). Needless to say, he completed the Course successfully, breezed through the Final Exam and was on his way (where to, I know not, but some SATCO must have thanked his lucky stars).

It was the other way round with my Master Sig. It wasn't that he was lazy or uncooperative: he was clearly trying his hardest, building up a huge swathe of notes and spending hours swotting them up. His trouble was that (there is no other way of putting it): he was "thick as two planks". He was a Slow Learner, but we helped all we could, and I'm happy to recall that he scraped through at the end by sheer determination. I hope they shoehorned him into some quiet, low intensity place where he might do very well.

I learned my lesson from that - never judge by appearances ! :=

Goodnight, all.

Danny42C.

Things are not always what they seem !

Chugalug2

19th Jun 2014, 11:02

Ormeside, just as the sudden outbreak of war can throw everything into utter chaos, so indeed can the sudden outbreak of peace. All those who have related their story here, including yourself, reflect that truism. It must have caused a mass of conflicting emotions to say the least, relief that potential mortal danger on a daily basis was at last past, mixed with regret that the powerful sense of purpose that was its corollary was also now a dying ember.

You youngsters (!) that graduated in your study of war late in its progress must have felt that all the more keenly. At least you had been engaged in offensive action against a tyranny that threatened your freedom, and as boots on the ground in the front line at that! Many never had that opportunity, one thinks of those (1 in 10?) that were instead sent into the alien and also dangerous depths of the mines to hew coal instead of being in the Forces.

This had been The People's War before such tags became debased. Women were now to be released from war work, be it in the factories, on the land, on the Railways, or as Forces Auxiliaries, whether they wished it or not. Our landscape was set to become the grey postwar wasteland of shortages, until the 60's at least, that I grew up in (punctuated only by the state funfair that was the Festival of Britain).

But at least there was now freedom and hope, in place of the ever possible threat of defeat or even an enforced suing for peace. Whatever befell one after that was bound to be an anti-climax and it was perhaps those who had been in the thick of things for years rather than months who faced the greatest challenge in adjusting to the new tempo of life. Everyone's story was different (hence the unique value of this thread). They did however have one unifying quality, they were all part of the amazing group that was the wartime generation, to which we later ones must be forever indebted!

Ian Burgess-Barber

19th Jun 2014, 11:47

Sgt. Geoff Burgess (Dad) arrived at 21 FC RAF Mauripur on 15 Jan. 1944 via the transit camp BRD Worli Bombay. How had he travelled there? I know not. Some six weeks had passed since he reported to 5PDC (Many thanks Petet)! Blackpool Lancs. to be sent out to India, enough time, I guess, for him to have arrived by sea. I note though, that there are 43.20 hours passenger hours carried forward in his new “Air Forces in India” log book which seems quite a a lot for a pilot with only training hours to record so far. I wonder if he went out by air? If only the first log book had not been lost I would know. Anyhow, he arrives with 317.45 TT recorded, 212.20 SE, 105.25 ME, of which 43.15 was instrument flying.
I see from his Unit Record Card that he was admitted to 1 British General Hospital Karachi on 21 Feb. 1944, no cause given, but I know from my own experience that there are many xenophobic bacteria in the sub-continent!

His new log book starts on March 1st '44. We know, from the timeline above, that Geoff hasn't flown anything for 12-13 weeks so I am not surprised to see that his first week of flying is spent with the 'Check and Conversion Flight' at Mauripur. March 1/2/3, they put him in a Harvard and give him 1.15 dual and 1.00 pax, then 2 hours as P1 with a check pilot aboard followed by 2 hours pax with that same pilot. March 3/4 he flies the Harvard solo .35 and 1.30, Exs. 1-9, 15,16. March 7/8 they give him a Hurricane, No.666 (what price superstition) and he flies that for .35, 1.30, 1.30 Exs. 1-9, 11,15,16 and finally 1 hour of formation flying. The O/C signs his log book and he is now a useful addition to the payroll.

His first job comes on March 18 when he takes a Hurricane from Mauripur to Jodhpur, (2.15) and then on to Allahabad (3.20). He nightstops there and is returned to Mauripur the next day, courtesy of good old BOAC, in an A.W. Ensign, via Delhi and Jodhpur (7.30) pax.
He repeats this trip on March 21 – Another Hurricane to Jodhpur, (2.05) then Allahabad, (3.05) He's getting faster now he knows the way! (Sorry Dad, just joshing). Next day, he is again carried back to base by BOAC, this time, if you please, on the “Cameronian” a Shorts “C” class Flying Boat, so there must be navigable water at Allahabad, Gwalior and Mauripur which I was unaware of.
One more trip in March, (27) he flies a Harvard, Mauripur -Jodhpur (2.30) with a Dutch P/O in the back and is returned on the same day by the BOAC A.W. Ensign. So endeth the first month with 21 FC Mauripur. He would serve with them for three more months before moving on.

Ian B-B

HighTow

19th Jun 2014, 12:07

Ian Burgess-Barber - Your mentioned Chedworth in your list of fathers units. That may refer to RAF Chedworth in Gloucestershire which was just down the road from me. I can't say if he was there for a medical admission as it only had a very small sick bay and most people went to the hospital at RAF Innsworth or Little Rissington.

However Chedworth was primarily the satellite field for RAF Aston Down which was a spitfire OTU for a while. I would need to check the dates in details but there were two OTUs plust a Tactical Exercise Unit based there. I'll dig into it and get back to you.

Ormeside28 - Fascinating to read of your adventures as an RAF glider pilot on Varsity. I'm currently in the process of building a replica Horsa cockpit at the Jet Age Museum in Gloucester. We have two ex RAF Glider pilots who both flew on Varsity who volunteer and talk to the public about there experiences on ops. :)

harrym

19th Jun 2014, 15:07

Ian, ref your Dad's Indian trips the BOAC C-class boats would have used the Karachi marine base at Korangi creek. In June '45 I flew from there in 'Cordelia' to Calcutta where we landed (if that is the right word?) on the Hooghly river close to large bridge; en route refuelling stops (three, if memory serves me right) were made at various inland lakes, an uncomfortable procedure for us passengers as instead of being moored at the lakeside, for safety reasons we had to transfer to motor launches until fuelling was completed. The lake waters were choppy so we had rough rides, and as the air element of our journey was also fairly bumpy I reflected that being made, during the same day, to feel seasick as well as airsick did not present a very good image of the supposed delights of flying boat travel!

Ian Burgess-Barber

19th Jun 2014, 20:52

HighTow

Thanks for your interest, my own research about Chedworth has not brought up any more clues about why Chedworth is on his Unit Record Card date 15.9.43. Little Rissington is where he was anyway with 6 (P) AFU. I thought it might be a hospital admission because the letter (capital) A preceeds it. The next entry, (crossed out) may be 1517 BAT Flight (Blind, or Beam Approach Training. Thereafter he is on his way to India.

harrym

Your posts, IMHO are a masterclass of reportage, so I thank you for for your info. that Korangi Creek was the terminal at Karachi for the Flying Boats - and not a million miles from RAF Mauripur. Paula (my ex-BOAC Purser partner) tells me that they still used to go out on the "Bunda" boats from "The Rest House" in Karachi in the 1960s. Allahabad is on the confluence of the Ganga and (an)other river. Gwalior has a big reservoir to the west so that was probably their "alighting" point as the Flying Boat folk would describe it. Flying in the lower levels, (pre. pressurised A/C) in the intense heat of India must have been a "lumpy" thing to endure, but to then experience sea-sickness would really have taken the gloss of the seeming glamour of the "BOAC takes good care of you" experience.

Ian B-B

Petet

19th Jun 2014, 21:57

Ian B-B

The (A) means that he was attached to the unit for a limited period, as opposed to being posted to that unit. One example of its usage would be if he was sent for a training course, but there are many others.

I also note that a detachment of 6 (P) AFU was based at Chedworth from 10th August 1943 to 18th October 1943 [Source: RAF Flying Training and Support Units by Ray Sturtivant] which suggests that he was "attached to Chedworth" from 15th September 1943 to 6th October 1943.

UPDATE: I have found an article which outlines the training at Little Rissington in 1943. It states "The other airfield that we worked from was Chedworth which had the runways and a lighting system for our 20 hours night flying"

Regards

Pete

Warmtoast

19th Jun 2014, 22:59

harrym and Ian B-B

Re your mention about flying boats in Karachi. There was some discussion here on PPRuNe a few years ago about Empire Flying Boats to the Far East.

As an aside can I point you to a brilliant read here on PPRuNe by a "PPRuNer" (Flatus Veteranus) who flew from Poole Harbour to Rangoon, Burma (Myanmar) in the Short C (Empire) Class flying boat Caledonia in 1940 including a night stop at Karachi.

It is a wonderfully descriptive account of what flying in a flying boat was all about. Here:
http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/48484-rma-caledonia.html

Danny42C

20th Jun 2014, 01:27

A fewwords to add to recent Posts:

Chugalug,

Yes, it's true that although we'd had years to work ourselves, as it were, into the war environment, the events of August'45 slung us out of it from one moment to the next. It was not surprising that everone was disoriented to some degree in consequence. Of course those serving overseas were naturally delighted to be going home (in most cases) much sooner than they'd expected....D.

Ian BB,

I'm sure that Sgt-Pilots like your Dad and I were at the bottom end of the pecking order when it came to air travel to India (what are troopships for if not for the likes of us?) But what interests me much more was what happened to him at Mauripur. What did "21 FC" stand for ? I think probably "Ferry Command" or "Ferry Centre" or "Ferry Control" or something like it, and for this reason.

The clue is the luxurious nature of his returns to Mauripur. To have the slightest chance of a ride in a BOAC Sunderland or Ensign, you would need at least one star, or to have a top priority Air Movement authority - and these were not handed out to the hoi polloi ! The sole exception (for obvious reasons) was the Ferry Pilot of any rank coming back to pick up his next delivery.

That was what your Dad was doing. He was a Ferry Pilot for the M.U.while he was there.

There were plenty of lakes and waterways in India which could take a Sunderland. At Cholaveram (Madras) we had them on Redhills Lake a few miles away, and most of the northern cities were on rivers....D.

HighTow,

RAF Hospital, Wroughton would have been another possibility - or would they consider that too far to travel ? And your: "Ormeside28 - Fascinating to read of your adventures as an RAF glider pilot on Varsity". had me puzzled at first, until I realised that it wasn't the aircraft, but an airborne operation, you had in mind. (Wouldn't that have been something, Ormeside, going to war in a Varsity "glider" [both feathered, I suppose] - and what would tow it ? The mind boggles !

Perhaps I should say that I was 5,000 miles away at the time and more concerned with my own spot of bother (and I would have been in dock getting patched up); it was only now that I've read Wiki's excellent blow-by-blow account of the largest airborne assault ever mounted that I took note of it (curiously, we'd heard all about Arnhem out there)....D.

Goodnight, everybody. Danny.

BEagle

20th Jun 2014, 06:33

Danny42C, herewith TMHDOOTIF:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/TMHDOOTIRF_zps8c9d8e53.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/nw969/media/TMHDOOTIRF_zps8c9d8e53.jpg.html)

Incidentally, many issues of Tee Emm may be read on-line here: RAF Training Memoranda 1940-50 (http://aviationancestry.com/flightsafety/)

Ian Burgess-Barber

20th Jun 2014, 11:20

Petet
Again your erudition solves my miss-reading of the handwritten record cards, A means attached not admitted (in the medical sense):

"The (A) means that he was attached to the unit for a limited period, as opposed to being posted to that unit. One example of its usage would be if he was sent for a training course, but there are many others.

I also note that a detachment of 6 (P) AFU was based at Chedworth from 10th August 1943 to 18th October 1943 [Source: RAF Flying Training and Support Units by Ray Sturtivant] which suggests that he was "attached to Chedworth" from 15th September 1943 to 6th October 1943.

UPDATE: I have found an article which outlines the training at Little Rissington in 1943. It states "The other airfield that we worked from was Chedworth which had the runways and a lighting system for our 20 hours night flying"

(GEOFF ACTUALLY LOGGED 30 HOURS NIGHT FLYING MULTI).

This is an absolute gem of information for me, so it does seem that all Geoff's multi training (the whole four months) was with 6 (P) AFU starting 3/8/1943, A for "attached to Chedworth from 15/9/1943, then returning to 6 (P) AFU Little Rissington 6/10/1943 until reporting to 5 PDC on 4/12/1943 for dispatch to India. Perhaps there was an urgent need for pilots in India at that juncture and the crossing out of what (I think) says 1517 BAT Flight on the next line before 5 PDC means that it was planned, but cancelled, as there would be no 'Beams for him to approach" in India at that time!

Warmtoast
Thanks for the link to the Flying Boat voyage - great account.

Danny
I take your point about travelling out by air not being a likely scenario for an NCO, but I am really curious as to how he came to log 43.20 pax hours by that stage of the game.

Thanks to all

Ian B-B

Petet

20th Jun 2014, 12:19

Ian B-B

If you can provide the movement dates shown on his service record from 5PDC up to and including his first posting in India I may be able to provide a list of possible convoy(s) (although I think the Winston Specials had stopped by this time so it may not be easy, but I will give it a go).

Regards

Pete

Hempy

20th Jun 2014, 12:53

One thing that has always intrigued me is what the Glider Pilots were supposed to do after they had successfully put their charge down behind enemy lines? Were they 'infantry' trained, did they stay with the aircraft, did they follow any 'hq' element, or did they just e&e to friendly lines as best as possible?

It must have been strange having the job done before the rest of the job started, if you get my drift.

Ian Burgess-Barber

20th Jun 2014, 14:03

Pete

Thanks for the offer, but I wouldn't bother if I were you, as I have no more details to give you - the green record card that I have has a central Heading "MUSTERING"

The "Unit To" column reads 5PDC The "Date of Movmnt" column 4/12/43
Next line reads, 21FC 15/1/44
Next, Admitted 1BGH Karachi 21/2/44

So no record of a departure port and no record of arrival at BRD Worli Bombay, although Geoff puts Worli in the record of service in the back of his log he did not record the date.

Ian B-B

ancientaviator62

20th Jun 2014, 14:08

Hempy,
I once knew a glider pilot from WW2 and he was trained to fight as an infantryman until he was repatriated back to the UK to prepare for the next op.
He claimed that the US glider pilots were not so trained and so were of less use once they had arrived on the LZ.

harrym

20th Jun 2014, 17:07

Warmtoast, many thanks for pointing me towards that 1940 account of a journey in Caledonia, I shall enjoy reading it.

Danny42C & Ian BB - Neither myself nor my crew were remotely of VIP status when we did that Karachi- Calcutta trip in a C-boat, indeed we were 100% NCO. Why we were so privileged I don't know, but it certainly beat crossing India by train!

Below follows a description of my time at 21 AFU:

Following a further two weeks at Harrogate after return from pre-AFU near the end of June '44 came notification of posting to No.21 Advanced Flying Unit at Taten Hill, my only regret leaving behind many friends from Canadian days - never to meet again alas, as was the way of things at that time. A few miles north of Burton-on-Trent, my new unit was situated in pleasant Staffordshire countryside not all that far from Burnaston. Its location had one distinct plus, for by this stage of the war a considerable beer shortage had developed but with Burton being the centre of English brewing we were quite well placed. A further pleasure was meeting up once more with the Oxford, not the beaten-up old stagers remembered from transatlantic days, but relatively new specimens that performed and handled nicely although very little altered in detail. To my surprise radio was still conspicuous by its absence, although a few aircraft did in fact have the prehistoric TR9. It worked rarely, useful only for practising R/T procedures and quite unsuited for any form of ATC; so perforce, control by Aldis Lamp & Verey Pistol was yet again order of the day.

Aside from being refreshed with the niceties of twin-engined handling and proper instrument flying, there was really little new to learn except that UK navigation consisted of rather more than following an occasional railway line straggling into the distance. Radio beacons were non-existent, D/F (usually) required a wireless operator and new-fangled gadgets such as Gee were for bigger boys than us; ergo, map-reading assisted by drift sight and DR plus a spot of luck was order of the day. Being July/August there was little trouble with the dreaded UK weather despite 1944 being a somewhat indifferent summer, but with the English landscape so crowded with detail it was quite easy to get lost away from the familiar local area and especially so if visibility was below par. In those far-off, pre-motorway days the narrow winding roads were not easy to identify from the air, so one's map-reading progressed largely by reference to railways, rivers and large landmarks. Seventy-plus years on, it is difficult for those not around at that time to comprehend the extensive railway network that once interlaced the land; indeed in some areas the system was so complex and widespread that map reading became a confusing exercise in discrimination, the much-maligned Dr.Beeching thankfully unknown in the distant future.

Given reasonably clear weather, and with the black-out now a thing of the recent past, cross-country work was actually easier at night. A plethora of airfields lay everywhere, with nearly all having full "Drem" lighting systems plus a red beacon (Pundit) flashing the field ident in morse; said Drem system being a circle of upward-pointing lights round the 'drome that accorded with the "official" circuit, capable of being switched so that aircraft were "funnelled" towards the threshold of the runway in use. With perhaps half a dozen of these lighting systems plus many pundits visible either side of track, to become lost at night was an exercise in idiocy (in good weather, anyway).

On general handling details the Oxford's greater speed and range allowed more prolonged and detailed exploration of a wider area than had been the case with the Tiger, thus facilitating such pleasures as teaming up with a USAAF B17 Flying Fortress heading eastward through the area; almost flat out at about 160 mph indicated, the Oxford was hard pushed to keep up and after a while I peeled away, afraid of being led into unfamiliar territory. During my time at Taten Hill a great explosion occurred in a subterranean ammunition dump nearby, resulting in the appearance of a huge smoking depression in the local countryside; for some time after, the sky above was full of haphazardly circling aircraft, a considerable collision risk.

Taten Hill was my first encounter with a "dispersed aerodrome", the pattern to which all wartime-constructed airfields were built and which should have been applied to pre-war RAF ones as well; for while the conventional practice of grouping hangars, domestic offices and accommodation fairly close together may have made life convenient for the inmates it also greatly facilitated any enemy pilot's job. The dispersed system went to the other extreme; not only were (aircraft) parking pans and associated facilities dotted randomly off the perimeter taxyway, they sometimes even wandered off into surrounding fields and woods. Domestic accommodation was similarly scattered, and might occasionally infiltrate the back end of a local village. The various mess buildings, besides being well away from the airfield itself, were widely separated from each other while sleeping quarters would be in small groups of huts likewise dotted all around. Apart from an occasional small bus or 3-ton truck circling the taxyway no transport was provided, so bicycles were essential being issued on loan to all who asked; but many preferred to use their own, almost any old "grid" being superior to the ponderous and ill-maintained official article. All domestic buildings were bungaloid, usually either Nissen huts of various sizes or crude shacks with corrugated asbestos roofing, "heat" theoretically provided by dreadful coke stoves for which there was never enough fuel. Entirely devoid of insulation, too hot in summer and in winter offering gulag-like conditions to the unfortunate occupants, amazingly some of these jerry-built structures survived for years after the war as accommodation for farm animals or squatters.

Not only was one's trusty bike essential for life on camp, it also provided virtually the sole means of escape; private motoring was but a distant dream and bus services extremely meagre, so one pedalled everywhere. Normal off-duty destination was of course Burton, an unlovely place crammed with renowned breweries and their myriad associated pubs. A visit to Bass, the largest and best-known, found it a stronghold of tradition with many horses in evidence, its products put into barrels of its own manufacture (metal casks as yet unknown), while around town traffic was often held up by chubby, well-polished little engines towing trucks full of casks, hops or whatever around a complex network of private railways. Over everything was that pervasive and characteristic aroma of brewing, a whiff of which even now carries me back instantly to those far-off times, and is indeed probably the only feature of the town remaining unchanged today.

With only Sunday free, again the faithful bike was usually called upon to carry me to the station for a quick trip home the evening before. Normally taken along so as to provide transport the other end, alternatively it could be left in the station cloakroom and arrangements made for my brother to meet me with the family tandem at Oxford; however this required prior arrangement, so was not always possible. These short trips home were a most welcome break from the general discomfort and indifferent fare provided on camp, for I was no doubt disgracefully spoilt by my mother. In this context it must be remembered that all food was strictly rationed, and available only on coupon to which as an unofficial week-ender I was not entitled; so anything I consumed came out of the meagre household stocks plus whatever could be produced in the garden, i.e. eggs, the occasional old chicken plus fruit and vegetables in season. Although vaguely aware of this at the time, I doubt I was sufficiently appreciative other than retrospectively, and then only much later in life.

A variegated lot, my companions were mostly slightly older and included a high percentage of Australians plus a lesser number of New Zealanders and Canadians. Although the Aussies tended to stick together I got on well with most, often joining them in forays to local hostelries; however, a sad event midway through our course forged a closer bond. Detailed for a solo flight one dark evening, I waited in our dispersal crew room for an "engines-running change" with an Australian already airborne on the same exercise; but the appointed time came and went, and after a while the duty instructor told me to push off as it appeared my colleague had "gone in" somewhere. Next day our worst fears were confirmed, and some of us cycled out to the crash site a few miles off where pieces of Oxford were strewn liberally around near an isolated house; the inhabitants of which had apparently been much surprised on awakening to find themselves surrounded by wreckage, unbelievably hearing nothing of the accident. The whole affair was a complete mystery; no evidence of technical failure came to light, and since my colleague's demise occurred at an hour when I should have been airborne in his place there was cause for deep reflection. Oddly enough I was to have a similar experience eleven years later at Dishforth, when a Hastings and its crew met another unexplained and violent end while I was awaiting my turn to fly it.

The inevitable aftermath was my first experience of a funeral. About fifteen of us were flown up to an airfield in the Wirral, there to be taken in hand by a kindly Warrant Officer obviously experienced in his morbid task. Saluting the open grave at a bleak, windswept military cemetery I considered the pointless loss of a young man who had come halfway round the world only to be struck down before he could even begin the task for which he had left home; now laid to rest without benefit of family or relatives, only our small party plus the crew of a passing goods train witness to what was, after all, a fairly frequent ceremony at that time. Despite having attended many funerals since, the poignancy of that first one will always be with me as will the gratitude expressed for my attendance by the victim's fellow-countrymen; for shamingly, aside from the W/O, I was the only Brit present.

Later on a party of us were detached for a week of specialised training. Following a slow and overcrowded train journey typical of wartime we ended up at Shawbury, a permanent RAF airfield north of Shrewsbury and home of the grandly-named Empire Central Navigation School; but it was a more humble unit known as No.534 Beam Approach Training Flight that awaited us, this latter being devoted solely to interpretation and use of the Standard Beam Approach System. Primitive by present day standards, it provided the first accurate and dependable method of landing aircraft in conditions of very restricted visibility, being the forerunner of the modern ILS; but, being only aurally interpreted, it was demanding and difficult to use. A brief description follows, any readers not interested are advised to skip the following paragraphs.

A very narrow radio beam was transmitted along the runway centreline, out to about 15/20 miles back down the final approach path. No more than about one degree wide, it gave a steady signal in one's headphones when lined up dead central; inbound, if the aircraft tracked off-centre one heard dots for a leftward deviation with dashes if off to the right, these signals being of course reversed if proceeding outbound from the field. Fractional misalignment put the aircraft in one of the two "twilight zones"; here either dots or dashes were audible as appropriate with the accompaniment of a background note that became stronger as one regained centreline, until finally the steady signal was heard again. On the other hand, continued excursion into the twilight zone resulted eventually in hearing only clear dots or dashes with no sound in between and so, by correct interpretation of the audible signal, it was theoretically possible to fly down to deck level without sight of the ground.

Unfortunately, as is widely known, theory and practice are two entirely separate entities and so it proved once more in this instance. First the beam had to be located, and with the Oxford possessing nothing so modern as a radio compass the only means available was by making use of D/F bearings transmitted from the ground; which in itself was an advance on any previous experience, as were the two-way radios fitted to our BAT Flight Oxfords. Having been homed to an approximate overhead, one then flew outbound on the ‘back beam’ for a period timed according to the forecast wind (often inaccurate) and then carried out a procedure turn inbound for beam capture, imminence of which was hopefully announced by the steadily strengthening "twilight" signal. On receipt of a steady note heading was then adjusted accordingly, but as estimated drift seldom accorded with that prevailing in the real world one usually slid back outside the beam or shot straight through to the other side. Constant small heading adjustments were then required in order to maintain the equi-signal zone, an increasingly difficult task as the beam steadily narrowed with decreasing range.

The other problem was knowing one's distance from the runway, essential for maintenance of a correct descent profile; timing was a vague procedure at the best of times, the inherent errors thereof being magnified with each passing mile, but any form of distance measuring equipment or glide slope information lay in the future and there was no ground radar. Two fixed marker beacons were therefore provided along the beam, the outer one at 5 or 6 miles from touchdown and the inner close to the runway threshold; these radiated fan-shaped signals upwards, high-pitched dashes for the Outer Marker and similar dots for the Inner. Correct technique was to hold a prescribed altitude (usually 1500 ft QFE) while completing pre-landing checks inbound, then commence descent on crossing the Outer at a rate commensurate with estimated ground speed; hopefully one would then cross the Inner at the published height (exactly what I don't recall), achievement of which promised a safe landing provided that the ground was then visible. Arrival at the minimum height too soon necessitated flying level until reaching the marker, while being too high could mean missing the runway.

The prevalence of fog most mornings added realism, and provided tangible proof of SBA's usefulness. Whilst the navigators of ECNS preferred practicing their esoteric art in the safety of lecture rooms, daily we trudged out to our barely-visible Oxfords and flew off into the murk, re-emerging time after time to brush wheels onto a runway that usually became visible only during the last few seconds of flight. Pretty much as now, in "real" weather it was then probably illegal to descend below the Inner Marker crossing height without sight of ground, however I clearly recall flying blind right down until a brief, last-moment, sighting of the runway - not as dangerous as it sounds since all flights were dual, i.e. with an instructor. The sense of achievement was satisfying, but it was a highly demanding task to shoot several satisfactory approaches one after the other and fatigue could soon set in; flying an accurate course along the steadily narrowing beam, while simultaneously maintaining a correct descent rate based on close control of airspeed, grew progressively more demanding, the constant noise in one's ears so stupefying that mis-identification of dots v dashes became a very real hazard as the detail progressed.

Fortunately the instructors also could only take so much, and following burn-off of the fog some airborne exploration of the beautiful Shropshire countryside was usually in order. Relatively unspoilt even today, over half a century ago it was positively arcadian in the smiling August sunshine and especially so towards the Welsh Border and around the Wenlock area, while the north western part of the county appeared to contain a remarkable number of remote and attractive country houses. All a very pleasant way of passing time, in complete contrast to the horrors of attempting (for instance) the mastery of back-beam approaches, about which the less said the better.

Our week over it was back to Taten Hill for completion of the course, after which I was sent west once again to spend a few days at Perton, a now long-vanished satellite airfield just north of Wolverhampton while higher authority made up its mind as to our future – which was not long in coming. Apparently the RAF now had a sufficiency of QFIs, so instead I found myself destined for Bomber Harris's mincing machine,

Ian Burgess-Barber

20th Jun 2014, 19:50

harrym

Yet another evocative and detailed account - thank you. I am intrigued by your use of two words for Taten Hill. I did a little bit of flying myself (436 hours on my PPL) and my 'Pooleys Flight Guides' (the Bible for touring light aircraft drivers) always published it as EGBM Tatenhill (one Word). According to my log book I only visited there once, 29/06/1991, no idea why, with my friend Paul, in his PA 28-140 Cherokee. I was pilot (non-flying) on that day, in charge of navigation etc. I recall that we conversed with a gent who was sitting in his personal Harvard on the field and we were awed by his fuel consumption vis-a-vis our little 150 horse power Lycoming engine. As Tatenhill was only 4 or 5 miles from Burton-on-Trent , perhaps he owned a brewery!

Cheers!
Ian B-B

PS After reading your account of Beam Approach Training I think Geoff was lucky to have been spared this torture until the technology became more user friendly!

Danny42C

20th Jun 2014, 21:48

BEagle,

Never have I seen such a masterful representation of one of the RAF's fondest memories - Thanks a lot ! Trying my hardest, I interpret the motto on the lower half as "Dieu et mon Doigt" ,and the top half should be "Faith et Blind Hope".

But it may have been fashioned out of some friable material (like our pastry specimen), the mice have been at it, and the lettering is no longer distinct....D.

Ian BB and harrym,

The idea that the RAF would pay (probably) ten or twenty times the rail warrant cost to move a bunch of SNCOs around (unless there was earth-shaking need for some war purpose) simply defies belief and all reason. The only Sunderlands I ever saw were the weekly ones up and down the W. coast between Bombay and Ceylon, carrying mail, Mountbatten and/or his Staff, at about 10,000 ft. I didn't even know of the existence of internal "C" boat and Ensign flights,

I must say that once I benefited from a high prioity; Palam put me on an Indian National Airways "Expeditor" for Rawalpindi when the RAF had nothing going that way....D.

harrym,

Wonderful ! But if you think that SBA was hard in an aircraft, try it in a Link (and lose the will to live). And you keep us waiting with bated breath for your: "instead I found myself destined for Bomber Harris's mincing machine". Don't let it be too long !....D.

Cheers, Danny.

kookabat

21st Jun 2014, 08:05

I was in the UK about five years ago as part of a wider 'pilgrimage' visiting places associated with my great uncle's Bomber Command crew. My PPL was still current at the time so one of the first things I did was look up a local flying school and instructor to hire an aeroplane and fly around some of the old airfields. Tatenhill was the airfield we flew from... I didn't realise until I got there that it was itself a wartime airfield. It was a great little flight, and being able to put names like Waddington, Bardney, East Kirkby, Winthorpe and Lichfield into my logbook (as turning points - not many are still active airfields!) was pretty special.

Ian Burgess-Barber

21st Jun 2014, 10:56

April 2 1944 he takes Hurricane 563 from Drigh Road to Jodhpur 2.00. then Jodhpur - Palam 1.40. Finally Palam - Lahore 1.35
April 4, another Hurricane (974) Lahore - Chaklala 1.15. Then Chaklala - Peshawar 1.30.
There must have been a rail transfer back to Lahore as his next flight is:
April 7 Harvard 785, Lahore - Palam 2.15. Palam - Jodhpur 2.45. He is returned to Mauripur that same day by BOAC Ensign 3.00. (He must have been on first name terms with the check-in folk in Jodhpur by now)!
April 14 it's back up to the Khyber Pass, he passengers on Hudson 602, Mauripur - Peshawar 4.30. Peshawar - Kohat .30. Kohat - Lahore 1.35.
April 15 He takes Hurricane 696 from Lahore to Palam 1.35. Then Palam - Allahabad 2.25.
April 16 he is returned to Mauripur, passenger on Hudson 609 5.30.
April 22 he flies as second pilot with P/O Wetmore, on Dakota 640 Mauripur - Palam 5.10.
There must have been a rail transfer up to the north of Delhi as next is:
April 23 (with a Sgt Gilson in the back seat) he takes Harvard 422 Ambala - Palam 1.00. Palam - Allahabad 2.15 They nightstop there.
April 24 They continue, Allahabad - Gaya 1.30. Gaya - Baigachi 2.00.
April 27 He returns, from Calcutta, to Mauripur on a BOAC Ensign 10.30.

Summary for April: 12.00 hours Hurricane, 11.45 hours Harvard, 5.10 (2nd pilot) Dakota. 25.35 hours passenger, and six airframes delivered across the breadth of the sub- continent.

Ian B-B

Chugalug2

21st Jun 2014, 13:36

Hempy

21st Jun 2014, 14:41

Reference flights on BOAC during the war years, I doubt if it operated much if at all as a conventional airline (ie carrying private fare paying pax) on any of its routes. It was essentially a nationalised civilianised Transport Command, carrying official (ie Govt sponsored) pax/cargo, but often to neutral countries where military flights were excluded. How the seats were sold I have no idea, but would suspect that the payload offered was chartered by HMG. There would thus be a system of 'offering space available' carriage by some form of Air Booking Centre. So if we had a crew etc to move from A to B with spare seats available then they would be boarded rather than let the flight go part full.

That's my theory anyway, but merely based on post war Transport/ Air Support Command practice only. Ready to be rigorously corrected as ever...

Chugug2,

When war broke out in Europe, the British Air Ministry prohibited private flying and most domestic air services. Imperial Airways and British Airways Ltd, at the time in the process of being merged and nationalised as BOAC, were evacuated from Croydon and Heston to Whitchurch.

The government restricted all domestic and international flights, military and civilian, to diplomats, military personnel, VIPs, and anyone else with specific government approval or on government business.

The aircraft were generally flown by BOAC pilots although ex-BOAC aircrew from the Services were often 'seconded'.

I guess in todays parlance, BOAC ran a charter service on a government scheduled contract.

Ormeside28

21st Jun 2014, 15:02

Danny, Thank you.
Inlate 1949 the RAFVR started again in Liverpool. Several of us from North Wales joined and we had lectures on Wednesday nights and weekends at Fizackerley. In March 1950 we had our two weeks flying Tiger Moths at Wolverhampton - where I had first flown at Grading School. In eight flyable days I managed 25 hours. Unfortunately we were only able to fly for those two weeks. However in the summer of that year, Lord Shinwell, the Minister of Defence inspected all the reserves in Merseyside in Birkenhead, RNVR, (They had a training ship HMS Mersey in Liverpool) The Territorials and the RAFVR. He asked various people how they liked the Reserves, and we told him that it would be better if we had our own aircraft. What did we want? Well Tiger Moths would be fine. Where would you fly them? Up the road at Hooton Park. In five weeks we had moved to Hooton Park and had a hangar full of Tiger Moths!
Later that year the Korean War started and we were told that the R.A.F. was going to expand and now was the time to come back. So I did. An interview at Air Ministry and I was back.
I was due at Cardington on the 8th February 1951 so the week before I went to Hooton Park for a final fling, and our Tigers had been replaced by Chipmunks, so anothe type and a few hours.
From Cardington where I met up with about a dozen "retreads" we were posted to Kirton in Lindsey for a months Link Instructors Course. After the finish of that one of the vacancies was Valley so I was back in North Wales again.

20 Squadron was in residence and I met the Squadron Commander. He checked my log book and said that I would be checked on the Harvard, and and if I could do three good back seat landings, then I could have a Spitfire.. I do not know if you were there Danny at the time, but I am sure that you remember the Polish pilots. I had one trip in the Harvard and it went unserviceable, not my fault Guv. No spares available so no Spitfire. I was able to fly in the right hand seat of the Oxford, and sit in the back of the Beaufighter, so I did get some air time. Then 202 A.F.S. arrived with their Meteor 7's and single seat Vampires. The Wing Commander said that he would put me through the course unofficially and I did 5 hours on the Meteor, just ready for solo in a Vampire when an Iranian pilot was killed and , as I was not supposed to be flying, the Wing Co stopped me flying, but got me on a Wings Refresher Course at Oakington on Harvards. I know that it is drifting from the war so should I go on?

Chugalug2

21st Jun 2014, 15:56

hempy, thanks for the confirmation that BOAC was entirely at the government's disposal 1940-45. Hence I see no reason why anyone traveling officially did not warrant some consideration to travel with them. The consideration would not have been their social status, even be they (God forbid!) NCO aircrew. The consideration would have been the urgency of their duties and whether there was room for them.

I imagine most of the time the answer to the latter would have been 'no', hence the perceived rarity of such an experience. As pointed out though, those in the know would probably have fared better than those that were not. I would guess therefore that ferry pilots, and those that administered their comings and goings, fared better than most.

I see that BOAC administered the ATA, for example, despite control moving from the RAF to the Ministry of Aircraft Production.

harrym

21st Jun 2014, 17:27

Ian B-B - Taten Hill is entered as such in my log book so that was certainly the correct spelling at the time; has it now morphed into one word?

Chugalug2 - As you suggest, our cross-India flight courtesy BOAC may well have been down to seats being available. On the other hand we were still at war with Japan and, given the planned invasion of Malaya, there was probably a need for front line squadrons to be kept fully manned. Three and a half weeks elapsed between my crew's arrival at Karachi and ending up with 194 Sqdn at Akyab, not over rapid perhaps but a lot quicker than if we had crossed India by rail.

Danny42C - Yes we did SBA in the link too, not a pleasant experience I grant but then the Link never was! Life in this instance could be made easier by judicious use of the rudder alone without bothering with 'aileron', but was liable to incur the instructor's displeasure.

The next instalment will follow shortly!

Ian Burgess-Barber

21st Jun 2014, 19:36

Esteemed harrym

Just google "Tatenhill RAF airfield"

Ian B-B

PS Geoff zoomed in and out of Akyab and Ramree Island, only recently vacated by the Japanese forces, on March 5th 1945, in his trusty Expediter with a Sqd Ldr Firth as pax, - possibly just checking out what was there?

PPS Your next missive is eagerly awaited!

thing

21st Jun 2014, 20:35

The only Sunderlands I ever saw were the weekly ones up and down the W. coast between Bombay and Ceylon, carrying mail,

The father of a close friend of ours flew Sunderlands out of Ceylon. He died when she was fifteen so she didn't really have chance to find out much about what he did in the war. What would the Ceylon Sunderlands do in the main?

Kookabat: you can still fly into East Kirkby and it's a marvelous place to visit should you ever return to these shores. Winthorpe only closed to air traffic around eight years ago but the Newark Air Museum is still there and well worth a visit. Obviously Waddo is still an RAF base.

Danny42C

21st Jun 2014, 20:38

Ormeside.

Your: "I know that it is drifting from the war so should I go on? " Most certainly you should !

Your experiences closely mirror mine. I, too, joined the RAFVR in'48 at Fazackerley, but they'd only just got started and there was no training programme of any kind up to the time I applied to rejoin the RAF in the autumn of that year (but the fact that I was in it as a F/O may have helped my application, as demonstrating keenness).

Why would they send you all the way to Wolverhampton to fly, when the flying (if civil) could have been done at Speke (or if military) at Woodvale, which only had an Auxiliary squadron of Spitfires on it ? It is grand to hear that "Manny" Shinwell got straight on the job and found you your TMs (we could do with some Ministers like that today !).

And there again, why Hooton Park (which would involve our going over the river and down through the Wirral, when there was Woodvale half an hour away on the Southport line from Exchange Station (trains about every 20 mins), and most of our people would be from Liverpool ? Doesn't make sense. (Sorry about you wild Welsh, but we had to think of the greatest good of the greatest number).

Now as regards 20 Sqdn. at Valley, I was there from 21.3.50. to 19.9.51. (Sqdn. disbandment). I reckon you would have got to Valley about April'51, so we were there together for that summer. Station Commander was W/Cdr J.E.T. Haile; 20 Sqdn. C.O. was S/Ldr A.R. Hindley, AFC; I was in "A" Flt (F/Lt W. Hewlett). The only Pole I remember on the Sqdn. was M/P "Joe" Halkiew, and we had a Czech M/P ("Zed-Zed" Zmitrowitz). They target-tugged with our (one and only) Beau. But apparently the AFS had moved in about that time, so they might have had some Polish QFIs, but I don't remember any.

Perhaps I should explain that we had little contact with the AFS people. They had their Flight Offices and Tech site on the SW side of the runway, we were on the NE. They must have had their Messes and accommodation apart from ours, for I don't remember them in ours (which in any case would have been far too small for both). Anyway, my weary tale of Valley is on p.168 et seq. of this Thread....D.

harrym,

Your: "judicious use of the rudder alone without bothering with 'aileron'". True, but however "judicious" your use might be, it bore no relation to the change of heading which resulted ! As I've noted before, with the Link it was a case of "Shake the bottle - None'll come and then the lot'll !" Roll on your Next Instalment....D.

Cheers to you both. Danny.

Ormeside28

21st Jun 2014, 21:43

Thank you Danny. I flew quite a lot in the back of Jo Halkiew'S Beaufighter. I last saw him when I was a Controller at Pitreavie 61 to 64 and he was M/p / W/O Dascip.. I lost touch with Z-Z when I left Valley.. We used to go to the club in Rhosneigr - really the 20 Squadron Crew Room - on my motor bike,!

Chugalug2

22nd Jun 2014, 11:22

Harrym, your description of the challenges of an SBA approach makes one wonder why audio rather than visual input was so favoured in the 30/40s. When all that was needed was a L/R indicator rather than all those dots and dashes, was there a technical problem in the way of doing that? I never had to face such torture either in the Link or for real, but letting down through the murk with only that cacophony to guide you must have been both wearying and worrying.

En-Route navigation was also facilitated in this way by the Radio Range which transmitted morse code A's and N's instead of dots and dashes to signify Left or Right of the range. That I have seen in use (the Diamond Head facility at Honolulu shortly before its withdrawal) and again saw the great advantages that a VOR for instance had over it.

Ormeside28, please keep going. As Danny says, that is exactly what he did. There is a continuity here in linking the wartime RAF to the post war one. It is that very transition that is so often neglected elsewhere, but not here!

Hummingfrog Post 5692:-
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk68/squadron72/Dad%20Terrell/Train2c_zps7445307c.jpg

well, its taken a long time but I eventually tracked down a 'man who knows' at the Bluebell Railway and am reliably informed that the RH loco is a Canadian National Railways U1a Mountain Class:-

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x199/chugalug2/P9120593_zpsdc2cac18.jpg

While its companion to the left is a CN Class S1a:-

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x199/chugalug2/bxStConstantPQ2002_zpsbe166757.jpg

Hope that hasn't upset your laptop Danny, nor the finer feelings of railway enthusiasts by whom I stand to be corrected as always.

Fareastdriver

22nd Jun 2014, 13:53

A I mentioned years ago in this thread when we were discussing the Beam Approach I, and many others, flew them at our FTS at Tern Hill with Provost T1 trainers in 1961/62.
They probably shut it down when CFS (Helicopters) took over in early 1962. It was difficult enough to keep a Sycamore or Whirlwind upright during instrument flying, let alone trying to do a self interpreted approach.

Tiddles

22nd Jun 2014, 15:20

Harrym

Very interesting to read about your experiences - especially your time at Tatenhill.

Tatenhill airfield today is a lively airfield with both an aircraft maintenance and avionics company as well as a couple of flight training organisations. In addition there are a number of GA aircraft based there as well as a Harvard (in Canadian livery) with an active social club and cafe on site. We also have the Midlands Air Ambulance (MAA) based here.

On Saturday 5th July we are having our annual Charity Fly In & Displays in support of the MAA. From 13.00pm we will have several air displays including duo Bucker Jungmanns'.

We are now also able to confirm that we will have a “surprise visitor” on the day......

.....a Griffon engine Spitfire Mk XIX (owned by Rolls Royce) which will be flown by Mark Lewis on slot at 1435hrs (L) who says his approach speed will be 330kts! This will be in addition to the existing display aircraft.

Rolls Royce thought our event in support of the Midlands Air Ambulance was a very worthwhile event to support.

More details on our website: ESFC Home Page (http://www.esfc.org.uk)

If you are in the area you would be very welcome to come along and join us.

Kind regards

Danny42C

22nd Jun 2014, 16:41

Chugalug,

IIRC, there was a visual aid on the panel, the "Kicker". This "kicked" L or R in response to the aural signal. I cannot recall exactly what it looked like. I don't think there was any visual indication of the Inner or Outer markers.

And somewhere in the old "Tee Emm", there was a wonderful poem about SBA training (there was also a "TBA" - Tuneable Beam Approach) - but what the difference was (apart from the fact that it was "tuneable"), I do not know.

I have a CD of "Tee Emm", but no idea how to find the poem again (it's the sort of thing you find only when you're not looking for it). I only remember a few scraps:

".....trying might and main....drift has changed with loss of height, round we go again....Gremlins rap the perspex, thoughts fly thick and fast...Stick to the Sperry Panel, or your thoughts will be your last !.....Is it right, or is it left ? what does the "kicker" say ?......"

All in all, better than nothing, but not quite as good as coming down an ILS slope on autopilot (spoken by one who has never done anything of the kind, but only read about it). The Radio Range was the standard aid for commercial air navigation in the US when we were there, and of course the SBA and the later ILS are its lineal descendants.

Don't worry about upsetting my picture - there's aways some Good Samaritan who can restore the status quo.....D.

Cheers, both. Danny.

Hummingfrog

22nd Jun 2014, 18:31

I thought I would post a couple of pictures, for the railway fans, my dad took during his journeys to/from Canada.

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk68/squadron72/Dad%20Terrell/TexasZephr_zps157a5149.jpg (http://s277.photobucket.com/user/squadron72/media/Dad%20Terrell/TexasZephr_zps157a5149.jpg.html)http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk68/squadron72/Dad%20Terrell/HoustonZephyrrear_zpsa6d10e99.jpg (http://s277.photobucket.com/user/squadron72/media/Dad%20Terrell/HoustonZephyrrear_zpsa6d10e99.jpg.html)

I didn't realise that the big diesel locos were available during the war.

Fareast driver

It was difficult enough to keep a Sycamore or Whirlwind upright during instrument flying, let alone trying to do a self interpreted approach.

I remember my introduction to the Whirlwind 10 at Ternhill and although the instrument panel looked more like that of a rotary Chipmunk it at least, I thought, had an ILS. Not so - it had, using the same indicator as a JP5 ILS, an system called Violet Picture which was used to home onto SABRE transmissions from downed aircrew.

HF

pzu

23rd Jun 2014, 00:29

Danny

Could be your "target for Tonight' :ok:

BBC News - Teesside war veteran gets back in the cockpit (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-27962878)

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

Chugalug2

23rd Jun 2014, 14:45

Danny, your recollection of a Tee Emm poem referring to a SBA visual 'kicker' indicator emphasises yet again one of the major bonuses of this thread, the throw away/BTW comment. Presumably it 'kicked' in time with the modulated dots or dashes and in the appropriate left or right direction.

So, not a variable deflection indicating say a quarter or half beam displacement, but a back up means of assisting the mental processes to get back on the centre line, especially on a back beam!

It seems this was still the technological hurdle to jump, and it took the ILS system to do it. Intriguingly Wikki says that the German SBA/Lorenz system did later feature a directional arrow to indicate direction to turn, but again I suspect that was a 'kicker' rather than displacement indicator. Also interesting that Lorenz was developed into the Elektra-Sonnen Long Range nav system used by the U-boats, and that we knew as Consul post war:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_beam

It was presumably the ILS displacement technology that was applied to the 'localiser needle like' Violet Picture 243 MHz Sarbe homing system mentioned by Hummingfrog. We had that mounted on the instrument coaming in the Hastings. When Vietnam was raging, a flight from Changi to Kai Tak would see it seemingly welded to the LH stop while flying past Vietnam over the South China Sea, with the RH stop similarly utilised on the return. Listening in, there was even more of a cacophony than with SBA, for Guard was simply a natter frequency apparently. Bad luck for anyone trying to declare an emergency or worse still on the ground appealing for help, having banged out and now surrounded by the Viet Cong...

PS It seems that the ILS system existed pre war,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_landing_system

and the Luftwaffe appears to have used it during the war, see this German language page from Wikkimedia ref an AFN2 indicator of 1943:-

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bordpeilger%C3%A4t_Peil_G_6.jpg

Fareastdriver

23rd Jun 2014, 19:25

During the Confrontation in Borneo in the sixties the HF frequency we used to pass our departure and arrival messages at Kampongs and clearings was jammed with traffic in Viet Nam.
One day a pilot took advantage of a quiet moment to pass a departure message. An American voice came up.
"Getta offa this frequency, don't you know there's a war on?"
To which our hero replied.
"Of course I do, we've got one here too, but we're winning ours."

smujsmith

23rd Jun 2014, 19:32

Fareastdriver,

Classic, and how sharp. I once needed a quick ground run at Boston Logan, to clear an engine snag on a C130. I reached for the en route supplement and identified a frequency for "non operational", ground activity related communication. On requesting start for a five minute, low power run, I was told that I was abusing the frequency and should contact ATC by telephone, "remain clear of frequency"! How rude I thought, so after doing the 5 minute run, I rang ATC on the number he had given, to thank them for their assistance.

Smudge:ok:

Brian 48nav

23rd Jun 2014, 19:45

I'm just a watcher on this wonderful thread; my RAF career as a navigator on Hercs 67' - '73 is of no great interest to anyone else compared with some of the wonderful stories I read here most days!

I picked up on your mention of 194 Sqn, 'The Friendly Firm' - I'm a sucker for squadron histories and I once bought a small paperback book entitled '194 Squadron - Royal Air Force - The Friendly Firm (Burma Campaign). I wonder if you are mentioned or are in any of the photographs?

Do you have a copy?

ValMORNA

23rd Jun 2014, 20:00

The Consol system I remember had 3 stations located in Norway, France and Northern Ireland (Bush Mills/callsign MWN). The French station was at Ploneis with c/s TRQ - or that may have been the Norge one. Long time ago.

Danny42C

23rd Jun 2014, 23:03

Brian 48nav,

Of course your experiences as a post-war nav have as much right as anyone else here to be with us in our cosy crewroom in cyberspace ! Everbody without exception has a tale to tell. If our wise Moderators had rigidly restricted this best of all Threads only to Posters who fulfilled the strict letter of its title, it would have been in grave danger of extinction many times in the past. Give us your story, mate !

harrym may have a link, but I'm afraid I have no connection with 194 Sqdn except as a grateful customer. Many a mile have I snoozed on the pile of mailbags at the back of one of their Daks to & from Dum-Dum (Calcutta).

Cheers, Danny.

Danny42C

24th Jun 2014, 00:51

Chugalug,

To add to the zoo of strange things you describe, I seem to remember the Sperry Zero Reader, which functioned, I believe, as a sort of "What to Do" meter, and which, if bolted onto an ILS instrument, might have helped enormously.

But in my (single seat) generation they gave me a needle & ball (sometimes two - why ?), a DI and an AH. "Count yourself lucky", they said. As there were no aids of any kind in the aircraft (and precious little outside), we muddled through.

The principle of the Lorenz beam had been known for a long time. According to Wiki, the first use of ILS by a scheduled service was in the US in '38.

There was a general belief that the "Blitz" bombers were guided to their targets as "beam-riders", and that our boffins had devised a cunning way of "bending the beam". This belief was reinforced when they bombed Dublin by mistake in '41. :uhoh: But it would have needed a very unintelligent pilot indeed :rolleyes: to confuse a brightly lighted city with the British blacked- out ones.

Cheers, Danny.

Fareastdriver

24th Jun 2014, 06:52

The Zero Reader was the ancestor of the flight direction panel before FMS (flight management system) and is still here with glass cockpits. It had a command function as opposed to the advisory function of the past. Attitude indicators as well as the equivalent of the compass card now have vertical and horizontal bars that advise you how to place the aeroplane to accomplish what ever input you had selected.

In other words flying a modern aeroplane is money for old rope but people don't know that because we wear big watches and Ray Bans.

Apparently one person who considered the Zero Reader essential was Nick the Greek. That is why Aunty Betty's Andovers were fitted with them.

pzu

24th Jun 2014, 14:31

From a Canadian site, an interesting piece on 'Spitfires and Gliders'!!!

Spitfire Glider Tugs > Vintage Wings of Canada (http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/476/language/en-CA/Spitfire-Glider-Tugs.aspx)

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

Ian Burgess-Barber

24th Jun 2014, 15:14

May 1944 at 21 Ferry Control Mauripur. Sgt. Geoff ferries 3 Hurricanes, 2 Tiger Moths and a Fairchild Cornell in the course of the month. Positioning flights are mainly made in Hudsons, although on one occasion a Beaufort is used to drop him off in Jodhpur. Again, BOAC "takes good care" of him as he rides another of their "C" class flying boats from Allahabad back to Karachi, this one has the curious name of "Cooee" (G-AFBL). Later in the month an Indian National Airways Dragon Rapide picks him up at Chaklala, where he has completed a three day trip in a Tiger Moth (from Jodhpur, by the pretty route), and carries him to Lahore where another Hurricane awaits him. Twelve months have now passed since "Wings Day" in faraway Florida and Geoff becomes a Flight Sgt.

Summary for May: Hurricane 13.45 Cornell 4.40 Tiger Moth 13.00 and Passenger 25.15

June starts with a bit of a hiccup. He sets off (as 2nd Pilot in Dakota 541) 40 minutes later they are back at Mauripur, "A/C U/S" his log records (no reason given). The next day Dakota 541 behaves herself and they fly her to Palam. Two more Hurricane ferry flights are his next jobs. Then more 2nd piloting in another Dakota to Chaklala, here he gets a ride to Lahore in an Anson where yet another Hurricane needs a pilot. June 16 he gains some "big iron" experience, as 2nd pilot on Liberator 982, to Allahabad via Jodhpur. He returns June 19 on the BOAC Ensign (his final trip with them - although he does not know that at the time). June 29 he logs 0.35 mins. dual with a W/O from 229 Group Comm. Flight Palam (air test+check on type) says his log. Two days later he has finished with 21 FC and is now on the books of the aforementioned Comm. Flight.

Summary for June Hurricane 11.15 Dakota 10.50 Liberator 6.35 Anson 0.35 and Passenger 14.05

Ian B-B

MPN11

24th Jun 2014, 15:49

I B-B and others ... these insights force us to remember the 'drudgery' behind the scenes ensuring the the front line continues to function. Unglamorous for sure, but the whole think would have been a house of cards without ferry pilots, ATA and "as you're not yet combat ready, take this to RAF xxxx."

No glamour, almost as dangerous (weather, serviceability, inexperience), and yet utterly and totally essential.

:ok:

harrym

24th Jun 2014, 17:11

Brian48nav:- Think I have somewhere a history of 194, in which I certainly don't figure. I arrived only a few weeks before the bomb, thus missing its prestigious work during the Burma campaign; for sure, we were kept quite busy after the war's end but that was rather different!

Hummingfrog:- Thanks for the pix. A few Diesels were introduced into the US during the 1930s, but their widespread introduction was delayed by the war when it was deemed prudent (also less expensive, and less demanding of scarce resources) to stick with the proven technology of steam.

Tiddles:- Many thanks for the invite to Tatenhill, would love to accept but sadly live too far distant to make it practical - but enjoyed looking at the website!

Chugalug2:- The only early-days visual azimuth indicator I recall was the so-called 'drunken chopsticks', two intersecting needles that were bottom-hinged and sloped inwards at an approx 45 degree angle; when 'on beam' or whatever they were supposed to intersect on a fixed vertical centreline, when displaced they indicated left or right as appropriate. Having said that, I don't remember ever using them or even from what piece of radio equipment they were supposedly reading. Not much help, sorry!

Ian Burgess-Barber

24th Jun 2014, 20:15

MPN11

Thank you for your last.
Firstly, for all the boys (and Gals) who like my father were not on the front line, but served wherever they were sent, and did their "bit".
Secondly, for finding my posting of what little I know of Geoff and his war of interest. Every time I sit at the keyboard to post, I hesitate and think to myself "is this going to bore these rough, tough, military types to distraction, by relating a story in which not much happens - no heroism, no medals (apart from the ones just for turning up) no mentions in dispatches". Your use of the word "insights" makes me feel it might have some value - thanks again.
The only word in your post that I would take issue with is "drudgery". Geoff, (my old ex-WReN Mum tells me), was passionate about his flying. If you have read my previous posts you will know that he started as a "Brat", a boy apprentice, and achieved his goal of being an RAF pilot in WW2. He was 21 years old when he arrived in India and I am sure that he would he would have been delighted to fly anything that they gave him. Modern day regulaters (the so-far appalling EASA) would have a purple fit at the idea of a "non - type rated", or lacking "differences training" young person climbing out of a Dakota co-pilot's seat and lugging his kit over to a Hurricane to take that on for two further sectors that day - but that's how it was.

Ian B-B

Chugalug2

24th Jun 2014, 20:28

harrym, I know exactly what you mean. The RAF seems to have always had a penchant for cluttering up its cockpits with extraneous kit of dubious worth.

The Hercules Mk1 had the Decca Flight Log which, providing you were in SE England, the Gulf, or Newfoundland would obligingly tell you where you were, providing you had first told it where it was, having selected, from many, the appropriate chart on the roller map and of course the correct key. We seriously proposed this as the ICAO world wide nav aid for controlled airspace in place of the US VOR system!

The Hastings Mk 4 had Fed's Zero Reader. Again one had to manually input the required course selection on a separate controller before it could tell you how to turn on to it. It was yet another flight instrument to scan, and until the Flight Director superimposed these instructions directly onto the ADI (especially the combined V command bars of the Collins FD) was in my opinion, and with all due respect to Phil the Greek, an unnecessary complication. Like the Decca Flight Log a bit too clever for its own good!

IBB, what a varied selection of aircraft in your Dad's log book, any one of which most here would give their eye teeth to have a go on now! How simple were one's comings and goings in those days. 35 mins Air Test and type check and bingo, you are now on a Comm Flt!

Aren't Hummingfrog's US Diesels impressive? Given this was the 40's and BR had to wait for the 50's to get the feeble (well other than the Deltas) asthmatic ones that replaced our steam, they did rather have the edge. Of course we were broke and had to learn for ourselves how to do it as importing in dollars was not possible, but a Chieftain or Zephyr to Glasgow or Edinburgh would have been quite something...

MPN11, not only are the Corporation dust-carts of the RAF less glamorous, they are also far more fun! I certainly enjoyed life on the MRT Squadrons far more than on the supposedly glamorous Comets, Britannias or 10's. As for sitting on a Lincolnshire ORP all day for a living... what? Oh, right, I'll stop right there then!

Ormeside28

24th Jun 2014, 22:23

Danny now up to page 193 of your fascinating story. Will post before I forget.
The posting from Valley was to 1 F.T.S at Oakington, near Cambridge.
Oakington was a permanent camp with comfortable accommodation. The school was training Acting Pilot Officers and us. They did the full course. We did the requisite ground school and reduced flying hours.
From 1st July to 27th September I flew 36 hours dual, 35 hours solo day and 9 hours, half and half, night. My instructor had flown P.R.U. Spitfires during the war and ensured that I carried out several back seat landings so that, if I was on a station with Spitfires, I would be O.K. I never did.

We did a lot of instrument flying. Do you remember the dreaded "Pattern B"?. cross countries, authorised low flying ranging over the lovely East Anglian countryside. In all a very pleasant time. Leisure in Cambridge, motor cycling around the Broads and an end of course party with our instructors.
We wondered what would happen to us as nobody seemed to have a clue.

Well, it was to 201 A.F.S at Swinderby, but what were we going to fly?

I set off north on my motor bike. It got dark as I reached Newark and on to the Lincoln road to Swinderby. As I turned off the main road towards the camp there were traffic lights on red and I saw an aircraft approaching. It landed in the field before the road, bounced over the road and arrived at the runway. What a welcome! It was a Wellington.
There were two types at Swinderby, the Wellington T10 and the Mosquito. We were destined for the Wellington.
Next day we met our crew, one navigator. On a cross country, if there was an instructor in the aircraft, then there was a staff wireless operator, if no instructor, then no wireless operator. There had been crashes and the authorities were being careful.
We had two weeks of ground school, aircraft systems, cockpit drills,
safety drills, dinghy drills and so on.
Our Wellingtons were very well used and quite a handful after the Harvard. The turrets had been taken out and we were the last trainee pilots to fly them.
After solo and usual local flying a lot of emphasis was on instrument flying, flying on one engine, and cross countries. These were at 15,000 feet. The auto pilots mainly did not work, and we pilots couldnt leave our seats. The navigator had to operate the fuel cross feeds near his position, and we had to carry a torch in our flying suit as sometime the lights would fail. My last trip was a night cross country on the 31st December 1951, to Oban, Inverness and back to base and that was the last trip by a pupil pilot on the Wellington. Next day the Varsities arrived and I expect the Wimpies were scrapped.
From 12th November to 31st December I flew 30 hours dual day and 10 hours solo day and 8 hours dual night and 11 hours solo night.
I did enjoy flying a famous aeroplane and it was a nice one to handle.
They did start out with Bristol Perseus engines, but later given Bristol Hercules which were much more powerful.

Good night!

26er

25th Jun 2014, 08:09

Re "drunken chopsticks" in the mid fifties some of the Meteor F8s on the squadron were fitted with "Appendix", a bit of kit intended for use to home on a target jamming the fighter control frequency. In those far off days, for exercise purposes, a Lincoln with an open mike in one of the engine cowlings transmitting over the airwaves became a very effective jammer. Keep the chopsticks central and the Lincoln eventually came into view - or not if you were flying away from it! When the fighter got close the technique was to bank vertically for a few seconds and you could see from the instrument if the target was relatively higher or lower than yourself. Oh what fun we had when flying in cloud and the AH toppled.

Danny42C

25th Jun 2014, 19:42

pzu,

This is a most interesting link you've given us. (Your #5857 "Spitfire Glider Tugs < Vintage Wings of Canada") First shot out of the locker, it was a hare-brained scheme of which I've never heard - although at that stage of the war, there were such schemes aplenty (for who knows, they might work). And of course, I was round the other side of the globe from '42 to '46.

The next comment is on the first pic. Could be wrong, but the aircraft shown towing doesn't look quite like a Spitfire to me. The wingspan looks a bit too large, there isn't the dihedral you have in a Spit, the rad bulge under the stbd wing root isn't prominent enough. Could it be a Hurricane ? And the tow looks as if it's from the left side of fuselage ? How was it done ? (I see that a later pic shows the Spitfire tail wheel bolt-on assembly.

Second pic (Flt/Lt McRae and Spit V [?]). What on earth is in the cockpit ?)

Third pic really takes you back. All the spirit of the wartime RAF is there to see (but no Sgt-Pilots ?)

Rest of pics: What a beautiful glider ! (I've never seen one before). Put an engine on that and you'd really have something. All this will be old hat to harrym, but it's all fresh to me. The notion of doing it off an aircraft carrier makes me turn pale !

*********

Pursuant to our PMs (and one on the subject from another PPRuNer), I have been digging a bit deeper into our subject, and turned up quite a bit of stuff on the internet (detailed below, double underline shows source, bold type mine for emphasis). Seems our Wing Commander is something of a celebrity.

I had in mind writing to BBC Tees, but now I don't know what to think. If we accept that 88 is correct, nothing fits. But surely their reporter would have got that right ?

I've watched the video several times, surprised that he keeps his hands firmly in his lap throughout - and when the affable young pilot offers him control (01.16) of the Cessna 152 (?), answers "Better not". Why not, for pity's sake ? What harm can he possibly do ? Wouldn't any old pilot happily "have a go" ? Wouldn't you ? Seems odd to me.

What do you make of it ? What do our readers think ?

Cheers, Danny.

************************

BBC News Tees 22.6.14. (on link from pzu Post #5848)
==============

"For once, Mike Warren was happy to be a passenger Teesside war veteran gets back in the cockpit"

"Teesside war veteran has returned to the cockpit 70 years after flying Lancaster Bombers over Germany".

"Mike Warren, 88, was involved in more than 100 World War Two 2 operations".

"Now he has been flown to Gloucester to be reunited with fellow pilots".

(I think by "Project Propeller"..D).

Canadian Air Forces - RAF Benson - News and Weather
=================================

(pix)
http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/F93F7AE3_5056_A318_A84901670AF2C941.jpg

National Canadian Air Forces Memorial Unveiled By The Duke Of Gloucester
************************************************************ *

"A NATIONAL Memorial to Canadian Air Forces was dedicated, Friday the 8th July 2011 by His Royal Highness The Duke of Gloucester, at a ceremony at the National Memorial Arboretum in Staffordshire, England and was marked by a fly-past of an RAF Spitfire and four Tucano trainer aircraft".

"Also present at the ceremony today was former Wing Commander Mike Warren, who trained with Dambuster Guy Gibson but also flew missions with the elite American 101st Airborne during Operation Market Garden".

Sunderland Echo 21.6.14.
===============

"Mr Hall will be joined by former Wing Commander Mike Warren, from Saltburn, who was involved in the D-Day landings as well as flying raids in Lancasters as both a pilot and later a rear gunner".

The FLYER forums ‹ GA Discussion
=====================

by GrimReaper » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:38 pm (Excerpt from)

"Hi Colin

I don't have any details of Mike Warren, so please feel free to pass these on to me by whatever means you wish. Many thanks for your help".

:confused:, Danny.

Ian Burgess-Barber

25th Jun 2014, 20:46

Danny ref. Mike Warren in your last:

I've watched the video several times, surprised that he keeps his hands firmly in his lap throughout - and when the affable young pilot offers him control (01.16) of the Cessna 152 (?)

The aircraft is not a 2 seat Cessna 152, (some of the shots are from the back seats), it is a 4 seat Cessna 177B Cardinal - one of the best looking single engine Cessnas of the post-war period (no struts, cantilever wing). The A/C in the video is G-BRDO built 1975, and I admit to breaking one of the commandments when I look at this machine, (the one about not coveting thy neighbours oxen). Guilty as charged M'lud!

Ian B-B

Danny42C

25th Jun 2014, 23:47

Ian B-B,

Yes, it does look rather nice inside for a 40 year old, doesn't it ? (But could be rather pricey, 'fraid you'll have to make do with the ox after all).

Two odd things, do the light aircraft people of today fly without shoulder harness ? (what about aerobatics ?). You learn something every day !

Ran the Mike Warren clip again. When he's saying his few words at the beginning, I noticed the little Squadron badge on his lapel. Got the magnifying glass out.

Can't work out squadron number, but crest could be a fox's mask. But the crown above is clearly a Queen's Crown. That badge received Royal approval post-1951. :confused:

Danny.

Ian Burgess-Barber

26th Jun 2014, 08:04

Danny

I think I see that the owners of this Cardinal have spiffed-up the interior by re-covering the seats with leather upholstery, which always enhances a cabin IMHO. I was surprised to not see a diagonal shoulder harness in use (as fitted to most of the light A/C of my acquaintance). Full harness is usually found only in fully aerobatic A/C these days, which, are few and far between, probably 10% (or less) of the UK general aviation fleet. Cessna beefed-up the airframes of their hugely successful 150/152 trainers and designated them 150/152 "Aerobats" and they have full harness. I did my first loop in one of those (G-AYOZ) in 1971.

Ian B-B

Chugalug2

26th Jun 2014, 08:39

Danny, now that you mention it, it is rather curious how determined he seems not to even touch the controls. Any pilot would know that his mentor would be following through (as indeed he is told) and that there was no risk involved. Of course, he also knew that his efforts would be on video for posterity and probably didn't want it to show him making a complete Horlicks...

Your Flyer link leads to this post by Grim Reaper:-
http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=87038&p=1259346&hilit=Warren#p1259346
I'm sure you have already, but if you haven't heard the story of his service, do ask him. I don't think I've ever felt so humble (Synopsis: 114 combat ops....impaled into his seat after a crash landing in Norfolk, his crew outside shouting "get a move on you lazy b****rd!". Stomach reconstruction, finishes his 4th tour as a rear gunner because his stomach muscles weren't strong enough for the rudder; pops off a Ju88. In between ops 114 and 115-120, becomes the road manager for Glenn Miller's band. Amazing.)

As for the squadron badge, your eyes are better than mine, for I cannot say that I can make anything much out of his lapel badge at all. If indeed it is a fox mask, then that was 12 Squadron (bombers) flying Lancasters out of Wickenby as shown here:-

Royal Air Force Heraldry Trust, the Squadron Badges List (http://www.griffon.clara.net/rafh/sqns.htm)

No. 12 Squadron RAF - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._12_Squadron_RAF)

We have many skilled researchers here on PPRuNe, unlike me. I'm sure that one will be along soon...

Edited to add that what this story does highlight is the excellent work done by Project Propeller, now in its 15th year of getting WW2 veteren aircrew airborne again. Respect! :-

http://www.projectpropeller.co.uk/

Pom Pax

26th Jun 2014, 14:28

Our founder the late Cliff had a ride with Project Propeller and a bit of stick time. (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/329990-gaining-r-f-pilots-brevet-ww11-110.html#post6653109).
This lead to a couple more trips with more stick time.

harrym

26th Jun 2014, 17:28

Chugalug2:- I recall something called HARCO, a moving map gizmo which I think was a development of Decca. When it worked it was fairly convincing, but not as accurate for airways work as VOR.

Ref the zero reader, I flew the Hastings Mk4 for 2 1/2 years but my specimen certainly did not have it. Possibly the other three specimens (there were only four Mk4s in total) being UK based were retro-fitted, I do remember our Singapore-based bird never received various mods applied to the others.

My OTU account follows. I apologise again for some of my rather elementary descriptive writing, but re-state that it was all set down with non-aviators in mind and I deemed it best to leave things that way.

PART 6--OPERATIONAL TRAINING.

Proof as to the rumoured surfeit of instructors was provided by a posting to No.28 OTU, a bomber training station situated several miles to the east of Loughborough near the village of Wymeswold . That (for us) the unpleasant face of war was drawing closer now became evident, for as with others of its ilk the base's instructional staff consisted largely of experienced aircrew fresh from recently completed tours of duty on operational bomber squadrons. Physically hardly older than us, they had seen action through a period during which Bomber Command had sustained its heaviest losses and gave an impression of belonging to another generation; while for my part I found myself torn between the naive and idealistic hope that the war would not end before I had achieved something "useful", as against a very natural instinct for survival.

Like all such units Wymeswold was equipped with Britain's famed "cloth bomber", a title accorded the faithful old Wellington by our US allies on account of it being 100% fabric-skinned. By this time retired from front-line work, it found wide employment on training duties and so we spent much time in ground school learning the mysteries of balance cocks A & B, sleeve-valve engines, bomb racks etc, not to mention such new esoterics as Gee, the then state-of the-art navigation aid and our first sight of a cathode ray tube. Aside from the Link Trainer, synthetic training as such was very much in its infancy and what little of it I recall involved the crew sitting at separate tables in a darkened room in a condition of pretended flight, fed at intervals with scraps of information representing sundry facets of flight progress. Each crew member was then supposed to take correct action in furtherance of the "mission", but whereas the navigator could be expected to keep a fake air plot going, the signaller happily play with a real T1154/R1155 set-up, and the bomb aimer perhaps achieve something on a crude training rig there was little for the pilot to do other than yawn. Somewhat appropriately this farce went under the pseudonym of "Grope", my only clear memory of one such exercise being service of a summons by the local bobby while being supposedly off the Dutch coast, the local beaks subsequently relieving me of ten shillings for the dire offence of cycling without lights.

My first and only flight in a Wellington failed to impress; not only did the controls feel unresponsive and heavy after the Oxford, the aircraft itself seemed ponderous and sluggish while I was surprised to discover that engine and ancillary controls were situated on the pilot's left side rather than the right. Thus I was not sorry when, next day and quite out of the blue, came news that Wymeswold was with immediate effect to become No.108 (Transport) OTU; furthermore, those who like myself were less than halfway through training were to cease such training forthwith and await conversion to the new role. Some years later I was to fly the Wellington again briefly and quite enjoyed it, but that is no part of this tale.

As facilities for transport training were not expected to be in place for some weeks, given the Service’s dislike of idleness some employment had to be found for us meantime; so daily we marched up to the ground school buildings, our task to redecorate them from top to bottom. The job was doubtless done with a fair degree of incompetence, as no instruction was given, tools and materials of half a century ago were hardly of today's quality and there was plenty of opportunity for larking about. Various new uses were found for some of the strange articles that came to hand, among them the explosive qualities of aluminium powder (from old sea markers) that was available in quantity; poured into the top of a stove, it flashed off most satisfactorily while the vast clouds of fumes did wonders for the surrounding decor.

After breakfast all students customarily got "fell in" behind the Officers' Mess where Spike Nolan, our unloved, cast-eyed (but all-seeing) Warrant Officer i/c trainees, would call the roll and then sourly issue various instructions and/or bollockings prior to marching us the odd mile or so to work. Now during this autumn of 1944 the Germans had commenced V2 rocket attacks on London, two of which we observed from our parade ground standpoint. On two separate occasions vapour trails rising from the southeastern horizon, clearly visible in the early morning light, excited a buzz of comment which even Spike was unable to quell; the first rising almost vertically before disappearing at the top of its trajectory, but the second a few days later described a series of erratic spirals low in the sky before plunging earthwards, no doubt to the discomfiture of its launch crew. Later I was to experience this terrifying weapon myself, luckily from a safe distance.

Along with some friends I dwelt on one of the camp's more remote sites, a cluster of huts in a shallow valley adjoining a copse full of game. A few of us would sometimes venture out with my ancient but newly-acquired 12-bore, to the displeasure of a local tenant farmer who informed us in reverent tones that " 'is h'lordship" would strongly disapprove of our temerity; however, our protestations that vermin control was a public duty were totally ignored (rabbits were indeed a real pest at this time, myxomatosis being unknown). Of course we took no notice and, following a subsequent discharge of my fowling piece on another poaching expedition, were chased off by his son atop a rickety bicycle; but as he wielded a large cudgel in one hand, it was impossible for him to ride at any speed over the rough, wet ground and so we got away. Revenge on the farmer's hen house was then planned but it proved too secure, further attempts being aborted when he was heard to declare in the local tavern that somebody had been after his chickens and "son would be waiting for 'un wi' shot gun". From then on we decided that the pub offered a safer form of recreation; it was anyway a very good one, with friendly landlord and excellent ale, his "old, mild & Tadcaster" being especially favoured for induction of general bonhomie (not to mention its warming qualities). Besides, nights were now drawing in so poaching after work was both difficult and uncomfortable as well as dangerous. To liven things up, one of my wilder companions subsequently dropped a Verey pistol cartridge down the chimney of a hut containing some RCAF personnel, causing much confusion but fortunately no injury. He was, incidentally, the one who had fired the near-fatal shot alluded to above - immediately following which, he had shoved the still smoking gun into my hands and shouted "run"; strange to relate, we remained friends for life (!).

As winter drew on the discomfort afforded by our crude accommodation became acute, so with our quarters being in a frost hollow the ablution block soon froze solid. By dint of stuffing the hut's stove with coke and then closing the dampers, the worst of the cold was kept at bay overnight. I suppose we were lucky not to asphyxiate ourselves with Co1, a very real risk using such a procedure; even so the heat produced was not always sufficient, so that one had to sleep almost fully dressed ed as well as resorting to such stratagems as putting a slip mat over the bedclothes. The same primitive stoves "heated" (in theory) all messes, classroom blocks etc, but as there was a perpetual shortage of fuel being cold became a fact of life; only when jammed into the pub's stuffy bar, or briefly home at weekends, was I warm again (but see later).

Eventually our efforts at painting & decorating were declared more or less acceptable and we reverted to the acquisition of learning with considerable enthusiasm, for a new and exciting vista had opened up consequent on our change of role; no longer bomber fodder, we were to fly the DC3 Dakota, the world's most famous airliner and wartime transport. Even in the classroom it soon became apparent that this fabled aircraft was in many respects superior to any contemporary from a British factory, especially so in the matter of its ancillary equipment, and the day when we would meet it face to face was eagerly awaited. At the same time, lectures on global weather, climatology and many other new subjects brought realisation that beyond the narrow confines of NW Europe a whole big new world awaited.

Initial flight conversion training was carried out at the satellite field of Castle Donington (now East Midlands Airport). In some respects a pleasant change - the Mess was smaller and more friendly, and Spike's eagle eye some miles distant - on the other hand accommodation was even more uncomfortable than at Wymeswold, and with Loughborough station now far off home visits became something of a marathon. However, set against the prospect of flying our new toy nothing else mattered..........

All the Daks were brand new, straight off the Santa Monica production line with only ferry hours to UK logged; they even smelt new, while the flight deck's relative luxury brought gasps of astonishment. By present day standards it was of course cramped, poky and not over-comfortable, but as compared with the Spartan interiors of contemporary British aircraft it was pure "Rolls- Royce". Cushioned seats with armrests and a properly insulated flight deck (sitting on a hard parachute being a pilot's normal lot elsewhere), plus a heating system that actually produced real heat, promised hitherto unheard-of luxury; while as for the practical side, its comprehensive instrumentation, Sperry autopilot & modern radio plus good layout of engine & ancillary controls were the stuff of pilots' dreams. An added bonus was being able to discard all our cumbersome flying kit including even helmet and mask, each crew station being provided with headset and hand mike. Designed to maintain airline schedules across a vast continent of climatic extremes, it was perhaps not surprising that the DC3's avionics and weather protection systems were of near space-age quality as compared to the primitive facilities offered elsewhere. Shamingly, in at least one respect it remained for some time yet light-years ahead of European counterparts, for its panel lighting was (in my experience, anyway) never surpassed - fifteen years on, that of the Britannia appeared to have been put together from surplus WW2 bits & pieces, while still later even the VC10 proved to be not much better in this context.

Indeed by 1940's standards the flight deck layout was an ergonomic triumph, even if somewhat cramped; throttles, propeller & mixture controls, elevator trim and tail wheel lock lever lay nicely to hand on the centre console, with fuel selectors and other important secondary controls also easily in reach. Batteries of clearly labelled switches were ranked on panels just above the windscreens, among them those for engine start (of which more anon), while said screens were cleared by real wipers that actually worked, an unheard-of luxury for those days. Various main elements of the hydraulic system were grouped immediately behind the copilot, bringing some advantages but also drawbacks, among which were loud and sometimes distracting noises emitted by this collection of miscellaneous plumbing. It also posed a potential hazard in the event of fluid leakage at a working pressure of 750 psi; fortunately this was very rare and never happened to me, however postwar standards rightly required all hydraulic components in new-build to be routed away from the cabin.

Fulfillment proved every bit as good as anticipation for the DC3 was indeed a delight; right from "blocks away" it handled nicely, the efficient toe-operated brakes and lockable tail wheel rendering taxiing and takeoff kids' stuff as compared with the desperate antics demanded by most other contemporary aircraft. By jet-age standards somewhat underpowered, so in truth were all piston-engined aircraft other than (possibly) front-rank fighters, and indeed for the period it was probably somewhat above average in this respect; in its natural element vice-free and driver-friendly, we soon became its willing slaves.

Our stay at Castle Donington coincided with a spell of bitter cold, with the mercury retreating into thermometer bulbs Europe-wide. Our miserable Nissen huts were probably no worse than those provided in countless other military encampments (and certainly better than tents) but, inured as we were to discomfort, conditions really were pretty arctic; so airborne training was thus even more eagerly anticipated, for the Dak's snug flight deck offered warmth and comfort unavailable on the ground. Fortunately the frosty but largely clear December weather facilitated our initial familiarisation with this most likeable of aircraft, every moment sheer delight, the pleasure and satisfaction at having such a responsive classic in one's hands clearly remembered as if it were yesterday instead of over half a century ago. Christmas soon passed in an alcoholic haze and so, with initial "circuits & bumps" completed, let's return to Wymeswold for some cross-country work.

A frosty January morning found my three-man crew detailed for a navigational exercise out beyond the Western Isles, before heading back to Wymeswold. Following an extended flight planning session, the crew bus rattled across the airfield bound for one of the more remote dispersal areas where our aircraft awaited in a boggy wilderness, surrounded on three sides by a hoary thicket; ahead, a meandering and narrow taxiway lead to the unseen airfield, on the way crossing a local road bereft of barriers or even any warning notice. Completion of outside checks included not only essentials such as removal of the pitot/static head covers, but also one or two items peculiar to the Dakota such as removal of ground lock pins from each main landing gear assembly, checking that the four fuel tank water drain cocks were wire-locked shut, and last but not least that all five control surface gust locks were removed. Unbelievably it was not unknown for this last item to be overlooked by even experienced pilots, with invariably fatal results.

Engine starting was fairly straightforward, although some prior experience as the proverbial one-armed paper-hanger would undoubtedly have helped. The two Pratt & Whitney R1830 engines (1200hp each) possessed inertia starters, the drill being for one switch on the roof panel to be held down so as to energise a small flywheel up to astronomical revolutions, then pushing another switch (while yet still holding the first) in order to mesh starter to engine, and operating (judiciously) the primer switch while moving the associated mixture control lever to "rich" as soon as the engine fired. While this was going on it was also necessary (if unfortunate enough to be in a MK3 – the Mk 4 mercifully had electric booster pumps) to operate a hand-operated 'wobble' pump while it also helped to perhaps juggle the throttle so as to "catch" the engine if it showed signs of dying after a few first hesitant coughs; following which pantomime, there was a repeat performance to get the other one running. With some dexterity this task could be accomplished on one's own, but it did help to have the assistance of either the navigator or radio operator, acquisition of a copilot lying some time in the future. Occasionally an engine would splutter along solely on the priming pump's efforts, due to jamming of a main needle valve in the carburettor; in which event it was necessary to shake it free by inducing a hearty backfire with ham-handed use of the throttle, this usually effecting a cure. Life was further complicated by some aircraft having different starter switch layouts, resulting in much confusion, frustration and cursing plus some delay in achieving a state of engines running.

Having made an initial check of essential instrument readings (oil & hydraulic pressures, and so on), engine rpm were set at the warm-up value and various functional checks of ancillary equipment such as radio and navigational equipment carried out while engine temperatures rose to the minimum value for taxiing. Once achieved, and permission obtained by radio from the unseen control tower, we trundled along our rural track towards the main airfield taxiway. To the present-day aviator all this may seem somewhat elementary, but bear in mind that, in the course of nearly 300 hours of training, this was not only the first aircraft type in which I had actually used radio as a part of the flight process, I was also (at a bare 20 years of age) in sole command of a state of the art transport aircraft; so, for me, the big time had indeed arrived!

Time spent taxiing towards the holding point, or whatever it was called in those days, was sufficient for oil & cylinder head temperatures to attain minimum safe levels, so after checking correct propeller & magneto functioning we were ready to go. With an OK from the tower I swung onto the runway, allowing the tail wheel lock to engage as we lined up, and then steadily advanced the throttles to the maximum 48 inches manifold pressure. The props responded with a puissant and highly satisfying Hollywood-type droning roar, the initial snarl of the exhausts diminishing as speed increased. What little tendency to swing existed was easily countered initially by use of differential throttle, the effective rudder gaining authority as acceleration continued; following which the Dakota lifted easily into the crisp air at about 90 mph (knots lay in the future!). Acting as temporary copilot the radio operator executed the somewhat cumbersome procedure for raising main wheels, following which we turned towards the northwest and climbed steadily to our cruising altitude of 8,000 ft.

As we progressed, the very light dusting of snow beneath us gradually became a proper covering and the approaching Pennines assumed a positively Alpine aspect as they came into view in the brilliantly clear air. Here & there trailing white plumes marked the progress of various trains, a once commonplace sight now utterly vanished, while the Manchester conurbation was marked by a thick blanket of evil-coloured smog. Through it poked a large number of tall factory chimneys belching out their contribution to the general miasma, a foul and unlovely contrast to the purity of the surrounding snow-blanketed countryside. I had plenty of time to study this phenomenon, for the sky was empty and the superb autopilot left me little to do; visibility was unlimited, navigation by eyeball and the mountains of the Lake District soon lay directly ahead. Having checked the sky was clear I took advantage of Mr. Sperry, left my seat and went back to discuss flight progress with navigator & radio operator, a foolhardy and potentially dangerous action by any standards; however, the potential hazards of runaway autopilots were less well taught or appreciated in those innocent times, and in fact I never heard of any such event with the Dakota. In later years I learned better sense, though fortunately for me my education was by courtesy of the misfortunes of others.

Clad overall in winter whiteness the Lakes and their mountains looked quite magnificent in the bright sun, even the Cumbrian plain being covered, while further yet beyond the Solway Firth loomed the hills of Galloway in similar garb. The cockpit was warm and snug, the engines droned smoothly, all instrument needles indicated correctly, even our meal boxes contained passable offerings while a tolerably drinkable hot coffee nicely completed my sense of wellbeing; this, I felt, was what aviation was meant to be like. Indeed, given the luxury of an autopilot it was probably the first occasion on which I had been able to relax and really enjoy the sheer pleasure of flight in such perfect conditions; later, I would learn to savour and treasure such occasions to the full as a counterbalance to the thousands of other hours of tedium endured over the years - not to mention other, briefer, periods of worry, fear, or (very occasionally) stark terror.

As the Isle of Man fell behind on the left, the radio operator passed a message slip bearing the legend "return to base". No reason was given, and with only a distant cloud bank visible far to the north west I deemed it reasonable to request confirmation; which, being duly given, left me no alternative but to effect a 180o turn and head back. Following arrival at a wide-open Wymeswold, we found that a meteorological forecast of bad weather at our expected time of return was responsible for the recall, but the expected conditions never materialised and it was an early lesson in not placing too much faith in meteorological ‘experts’; sixty-plus years on, I still regret the early termination of what had been a perfectly delightful flight. However, as one of our aircraft had recently crashed during a blizzard, presumably the authorities were now playing safe.

Shortly before this my crew had undertaken another flight in fairly atrocious weather to Nutts Corner, an airfield on the north west coast of Ulster; but, being accompanied by an instructor, no restrictions had applied. It was a day of snow showers that became heavier and more frequent as we went on, so much so that frequent alterations of heading became necessary to avoid the closely-packed storms. Lacking "Gee", my inexperienced navigator was unable to keep up with our zigzag progress, the radio compass needle spun uselessly due to static, and with no landmarks visible our position became uncertain. When a coastline was finally discerned through the murk it was held to be Northern Ireland, and although it did not look quite right we attempted to make what was visible ‘fit’ the map, a process that became increasingly unconvincing as we headed inland. Eventually the nav caught up with events, pronouncing that, due to a combination of stronger than forecast wind plus more "zag" than "zig", we were now over SW Scotland and to turn 90o left immediately; following which, a snow-blown Nutts Corner eventually hove in sight. Well it was supposed to be a navigational exercise, and certainly lessons were learnt - not least the necessity for intelligent map-reading!

Some night X-country flights naturally formed part of the syllabus, my main recollection of these being the almost dangerously snug atmosphere of the pilots' small domain. With gangway blackout curtains drawn, sole illumination came from the myriad luminous needles and calibration markings glowing brightly on the instrument dial faces, shaded ultraviolet lamps ensuring that these stood out clearly while all other cockpit detail remained virtually invisible; the synchronised propellers droned away comfortingly, and a 700 temperature added to the illusion of security born of inexperience. The rear crew members continued with their esoteric duties behind the curtains, passing messages from time to time plus the occasional cup of coffee; it was all rather other-worldly, although reality intruded now & then and especially so when weather was encountered. Then one would watch the airspeed closely for evidence of ice build-up, whilst simultaneously reassured by the Dak's excellent protection systems; one dramatic encounter with St. Elmo's Fire, with mysterious green feathers sparking across the screens and the propeller arcs described in brilliant rings of flickering bluish flame came as a glimpse into the previously unknown. At the time this was all great stuff; but with later exposure to weather in its more violent manifestations I would learn to be wary of such phenomena, for they might well herald much worse to follow.

Our course successfully completed sometime in February 1945 there followed a spell of leave, after which my crew proceeded to a holding unit at Morecambe. So down to Loughborough station (Great Central) for the last time, a place from which so many weekend journeys had commenced, and as the inevitable "V2" hicupped its way south at the head of our train I reflected on what the future might hold; for with the war in Europe plainly on its last lap, a posting to the Far Eastern theatre had to be considered as more than likely.

ricardian

26th Jun 2014, 17:52

Harrym - great piece of descriptive writing, thank you.

Chugalug2

26th Jun 2014, 21:13

Harrym, indeed a veritable tour de force! Thank you for painting such vivid pictures, of freezing Nissan huts, of the confusion of war (one day set for Bomber Command, then to interior decorating, and then to become that acme of the aviation scene, a transport pilot! :E

Your delight in your, straight out of the factory, state of the art, and above all warm and snug new office strikes a chord. That was exactly how I felt about the brand new Hercules C Mk1's that I encountered at 242 OCU, RAF Thorney Island, itself the nearest thing that the RAF had to compare to a UK holiday camp. Though the product of Mr Lockheed rather than Mr Douglas, it shared the same high standards of ergonomic design that you so well describe. Handling it compared more with a fighter rather than the heavy inputs required to the non-power assisted Hastings controls, where you could count to five before the bank that you had commanded manifested itself. Like your Dak, the Herc outshone the home products completely.

Talking of the Hastings, I must admit to some confusion. I remember the Zero Reader being fitted to a very few Hastings and not being overly impressed. My old Pilots Notes refer to it being fitted only to the Mk4. The only Mk4's that I ever flew were as a co-pilot seconded from 48 Sqn to FECS in the mid 60's. I have WJ's 322, 325, 333 and 336 in my log book. Is it possible that all four existing Mk4's were based at Changi by then (replaced elsewhere by VIP Andovers perhaps)?

Oh, speaking of Pilots Notes, herewith the Dakota I and III to illustrate (as if it were needed) your splendid piece, for which much thanks again:-

A.P. 2445A & C - PN - Pilot's notes for Dakota I & III (http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/aircraft/usa/douglas/dc3c-47/a-p-2445a-c-pn-pilot-s-notes-for-dakota-i-iii.html)

Danny42C

26th Jun 2014, 23:05

Chugalug,

I checked on both the links you so kindly gave me, and all was revealed. Yes, 12 Sqdn with Basil Brush was the only possible candidate. But what Wiki showed as the badge had a Queen's Crown, whereas the first link (list of Squadrons) showed it as a King's.

So it shows that what I'd forgotten (if I ever knew), was that all badges switched when the King died. All badges approved during the present reign will presumably switch back when Charles (or William) comes to the throne.
(Sudden thought: will they all have to buy new Cap badges - and buttons - when that happens ?)

The question of what I saw through the magnifying glass is now irrelevant.

You learn something new every day !

Now let us put my suspicions to rest. Someone here must be able to get hold of the Air Force Lists for '44 and '45, and trace Wing Commander Mike Warren. And if he flew operationally with 12 Sqdn, its ORB will give us all the 'gen'. I turn it over to our IT wizards.

Danny.

Fareastdriver

27th Jun 2014, 09:01

(Sudden thought: will they all have to buy new Cap badges - and buttons - when that happens ?)

Not immediately. My wings, when awarded to me in 1962, were emblazoned with the previous monarch's, George VI crown.

M-62A3

27th Jun 2014, 10:59

In commemoration of D-Day, Avialogs have an Air Assault package designed for you personally, Ormeside:-

Latest documents published | Avialogs (http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/en/latest-documents/avialogs/latest-documents-published.html)

Not being ex aircrew, or even ex-service, I hope you will all forgive my intrusion in this amazing thread. Though no else appears to have mentioned it there another feature of the above link that relates to the thread title.

If you followed the link posted in the above message #5786 of 11th June you also find a photograph of a group of airmen posed in front of an AT-6 reading a newspaper with the headlines announcing the Allied Armies landing in France.

You may notice one airman wears an RAF cap with the white band and that the AT-6 is coded "BP-251". These BP-200 codes were carried on the of the AT-6s assigned to No.4 British Flying Training School at Falcon Field, Mesa, Arizona. This is clearly a publicity photograph taken at 4 BFTS.

M-62A3

smujsmith

27th Jun 2014, 18:58

Harrym #5871,

Wow, your description of flying the Dakota makes someone who is a mere ground pounder, feel as though I was there with you. Truly a superb post, and indicative of the high quality of comment this thread has become noted for. Keep it going sir, take us flying again soon.

Smudge:ok:

Danny42C

27th Jun 2014, 19:46

harrym,

Yes, I too first wrote my memoir of RAF service, under the title of "Jottings", for the benefit of family and friends, and well remember the extra explanatory text you had to put in to keep your readership "in the picture". But that was balanced by the fact that then nobody knew enough to contradict you, whereas now you are at the mercy of an extremely knowledgeable and critical crowd all too ready to leap on you !

Having said that, I read your story with growing interest, particularly when you describe the luxury of the Dakota cockpit. Autopilots, comfortable padded seats, windscreen wipers, a heater which actually worked, radio ditto, a co-pilot to do all the work, a Nav who could really navigate, a signaller who knew which way to twiddle the knobs....The list is endless, it was a shame to take your pay ! What more could a man want (yes, I know, a F/E to start the engines).

All sorts of little things ring bells. The glorious "Pratt & Whitney Sound" - once heard, never forgotten. All the family had it: I flew behind, at various times, a Wasp Junior (Valiant), a Wasp (Harvard) and a Twin Wasp (P47 Thunderbolt). The "Sound" was the same from all of them.

I remember the control external locks (wooden wedges with long red streamers attached)- I was always happier (as a passenger on the first flight of the day) when I saw them all out (and chucked in the back of the cabin) before I climbed aboard !

They were later (as I understand) in the C-54s which replaced them, by a mechanical locking system applied in the cockpit, and I only know that from a tale (sourced from "Flight" magazine) which utterly defies belief, but which I may retell one day (if the Mods will let me), as it is miles off-Thread.

Your tank drain taps may have been wired-off, but in India it was SOP to drain the condensed water off first thing every morning; you would often get a cupful at each point if the tanks had not been refilled to the brim after the last flight of the day before. (Possible connection with the 777 at LHR a while back ?)

Loughborough rail station, you may recall, is ingrained in my memory: it was my destination, as I Posted long ago - on the night I lost the (occupied) coffin in my charge :uhoh: (or thought I had !) en route to the place.

Enough, this is too long already. Danny.

Ormeside28

28th Jun 2014, 15:03

After flying Wellingtons at Swinderby I was posted to the Hastings Conversion Unit at Dishforth. We had two weeks ground school to show us the Hastings systems but unfortunately, bad weather and lack of aircraft meant that we did not fly. On the 4th February I was posted to Topcliffe, just down the road from Dishforth.
Topcliffe at that time was home to two Hastings Squadrons. No 24 VIP and No 47. I went to 47. Topcliffe was a pre war base and very comfortable. During the War it had housed Royal Canadian Air Force Lancasters and Halifaxes.
On 6th February the King died. Princess Elizabeth and Prince Philip were on a Commonwealth tour using the Shaw Savill liner "Gothic" as a Royal Yacht. They were in Kenya and Gothic was in Mombasa.
I had just gone to bed that night when the orderly sergeant came to my room and asked me if I wanted to go to Esst Africa in the morning. Of Course! We took off at 6 am, on the 7th and I had my first lesson over France. Obviously Ok and I was able to take my turn in the front seat. We carried two Captains, two Navigators ,Two sSignallers, two Engineers and an Air Quartermaster and me.
We flew to El Adem , nine hours, stopped for an hour to refuel the aircraft and ourselves and away again through the night to Mombasa. The navigators worked hard, no aids then climbing up for astro sights, and conscious of high ground to our left in Ethiopia. We reached Mombasa 23 hours after leaving Topcliffe, had brea,fast and a sleeps and back to the aircraft to meet passengers and freight. We carried Admiral Lambe and his staff and the new Queens luggage . Off again at 1800 with a stop for an hour at Khartoum, same at Castle Benito - later known as Idris. - And so to London Airport as it was. Said goodbye to our passengers and had a meal in the Airport restaurant laid on for us by the Queen's Equerry who thanked us, and we did the first R.A.F. Duty for the new Queen. Then back to Topcliffe late on the 10th. More to come.

albatross

28th Jun 2014, 16:14

Found this.

Harvards Above: The History Of World War Two RAF Fleet Air Arm Training In Kingston & Gananoque, Ontario, Canada (http://www.harvardsabove.ca)

Interesting read.

Geriaviator

28th Jun 2014, 17:07

Away for a few days so have just read, without interruption, Harrym's description of his Dakota training. Poetry of the air, Harry, thank you.

harrym

28th Jun 2014, 17:40

Chugalug2:- The four MK4 Hastings (VIP version, max passenger accommodation 12 persons) were, in order of production, WD500 and WJ324-6. In May '52 I signed for and collected 325 from the MU at Aston Down, listed as follows on its inventory file:

Airframe Hastings, 1
Engines Hercules, 4
Plugs sparking 112

Nothing else on the list at all, while the F700 recorded a total of four hours 25 minutes flying time – virtually straight off the factory floor. My crew & I subsequently delivered it to the Far East Comm Sqdn at Changi, where it passed the next three years. The other three spent their working lives with 24 Sqdn, although over time the Changi aircraft was rotated with the others and one went to Aden as the C in C's aircraft.

Danny42c:- Interesting to hear that there was a P&W 'family' sound, common to all their power plants. Supremely reliable units too, and capable of withstanding much abuse (example to follow in my GPU instalment).

Internally operated control locking systems of various types became general in later aircraft. The Hastings was one of the first, and although effective and simple to operate it could be deadly if the correct unlocking procedure was not followed, a fault later corrected by a much overdue mod. As for the Dakota water drains, yes it was a task normally carried out by ground crew as part of their pre-flight but one always checked this with them verbally; I did occasionally do it myself, but one then had to scrabble about looking for some wire-locking kit!

I have never had an explanation as to why the Dak was so prone to water in the fuel tanks, a problem I don't recall on other types; my theory is that it was down to the filler caps being flush with the wing top surface thus allowing penetration of rain water if the sealing ring was defective, as opposed to the more usual practice of them being buried beneath a hinged flap. There was one particular occasion on which we were delayed for 24 hours passing through Akyab, during which no less than 16 inches of rain was recorded; the subsequent pre-departure water drain check took a good 15 minutes before the drain cocks dispensed avgas rather than water, and a look at the filler caps showed the sealing rings were indeed badly perished. No spares were available, and later we had the un-nerving experience of one engine intermittently cutting out while flying in rain a few hundred feet above the sea while attempting to dodge the worst of the weather.

Ah yes, Loughborough station of fond memory! Now of course a thriving heritage rail centre, with the re-created Great Central about to reconnect to the main network with its projected bridge across the Midland main line.

Many thanks to you both, and all others, for your appreciative comments – it's a small return for the pleasure and enjoyment I have had from reading this thread over the years!

Danny42C

29th Jun 2014, 16:05

Chugalug,

Further to the first paragraph of your #5869 (p.294), I've just stumbled on a Post of mine to Fareastdriver which exactly parallels your sentiments expressed:

"Your #5505 [p.276 20.4.14.] reminds me that I used to give "Air Experience" flights to our troops from time to time on Sundays at Thornaby (always picking a sunny afternoon for the Station TM !), and sometimes in the Harvard.

It was strange to find that, even as late as the early'50s, that apart from the tiny minority who had wartime aircrew experience, and some who'd a bit of glider or light airctaft time, no more was generally known about the art of piloting than fifty years before. Many thought of it as a sort of "high wire" balancing act, in which only the consummate skill of the operator stood between safety and and an uncontrollable plunge to earth.

So when I offered the back-seat passenger the chance to "have a go", the response was often naked terror. Not for all the tea in China would they touch the stick, and begged me not to let go. I'd lift my hands in the air to show that the aircraft could happily look after itself - they were horrified. "Take it", I'd say, "there's no trouble that you can get into that I can't get out of in ten seconds" (I was sticking my neck out a bit there). It was no good. At the other end of the spectrum, some went at it with gusto, and I had to intervene before they had the wings off the poor old Tiger..... It takes all sorts".

Cneers, Danny.

Wee Ronny

29th Jun 2014, 17:17

Hi

Thank you for listing the link to this very interesting link to this unit.

My father is P/O Cameron mentioned on the chapter on " Too many young lives are lost". He was posted there after gaining his Wings at 33SFTS at Carberry Manitoba on 21st April 1942. He actually said he was in the RCAF while there and worn a RCAF Blue uniform from then on. He often spoke of his time at Kingston and teaching the lads to "Fly under the hood". He returned to the UK in September 1942 and after FIS at Reading , he was posted to train EFTS pupils at Worcester and in June 1944 was sent to India to serve with 84 Squadron flying the Mosquito (and sadly bending one too) in June 1944. he was a Flight commander in was in the escort flight for the Japanese surrender "Dakota copy" and I have the doll "mascot" from this aircraft. He left Java and the RAF in March 1946 and only ever flew a aircraft again in the 1970's (again in Canada) this time a Glider. He enjoyed the stick time very much though. The only aircraft he ever really wanted to fly again was a Tiger Moth as he truly loved this little plane. He died on 24th December 2004 never managing to get in to another Tiger.

He was Flight lieutenant Ronald Gilchrist Cameron 123152 RAFVR; he was most proud to wear his 1918-62 GSM with A South East Asia clasp and tell people he got that medal not for war but for helping bring our POW and internees home after it was over. He saw Changi jail and was glad that too was over.
He never fired a shot in anger all through the war and was proud to have been able to make that claim.

Thanks again for this info, I never knew the book existed.

Cheers
Alastair

P.s. I too am interested in Wing Commander Mike Warren DFM as I too cannot find the listing of his award (or his commissions) maybe it is lost in the mists of time.

Icare9

29th Jun 2014, 22:48

wee Ronny....
Was he nicknamed "Bunny"?
Just found a link to this old PPRuNe thread, but on Phantoms so may be the next generation on.... BBC programme "Skywatch" circa 1974 [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-249083.html)

PS A DFM would have been awarded BEFORE his commission, if that gives you a possible time line....?

There is also something for a 619 Squadron W/C Warren, DFM, but I can't see any reference here.... https://www.facebook.com/619.Squadron.RAF.WW2

Hope one or the other have meaning for you!

Danny42C

29th Jun 2014, 23:47

I now propose to make good my "threat" in my #5878 p.294, and tell a tale which has no connection with my "Pilgrim's Progress" other than that it connects with our recent reminiscences about control locks. It is taken (memory alone) from "Flight" magazine in the early postwar years. The Editor emphasised that it came from an "unimpeachable source" (his words), but that even so a pinch of salt might be in order. Some of our older members may remember the story.

Just after the war, the Douglas Aircraft Corporation, of Santa Monica, California, was riding the crest of a wave. Their hugely successful DC-3 (aka the much loved: "Dak", or "Gooney Bird", depending on which side of the Pond you were), had been superseded by their C-54 "Skymaster", and all the world's airlines were scrambling to buy it (except ours, as we had no dollars left, after paying for the war 'n all).

It was a nosewheel four-engined low wing airliner (50-odd passengers), at a time when we were still building obsolescent tailwheelers (and would continue to do so for some time to come). And it had internal mechanical locks, applied on the Flight Deck, for all control cables. It is good practice to ensure that these are released before attempting flight, and a Bad Idea to tinker with them after you have achieved it.

NOW READ ON FOR THE "FLIGHT" STORY.

This particular "Skymaster" was on a scheduled flight somewhere in the cloudless skies over the Southwestern States. There were three "up front", the Captain, First Officer and a Training Captain in the "jump seat" immediately behind them. The Captain was having his Annual Competency Check for his licence, and this chap was the Check Rider. They can't have been more than 10,000 ft up, for the aircraft was not pressurised.

The Check Rider was well satisfied with his examinee, for he was doing fine. He was conducting the flight strictly in accordance with all the Company's Regulations. The Check Rider had "ticked all the boxes". He had nothing else to do and was feeling bored. The Devil finds work for idle hands such as his, and he sent an evil imp to whisper in the Check Rider's ear. Why not present the Captain with an Unusual Situation. and see how he got on ?

Behind him, in easy reach, was the Control Lock for the elevators. In those days, control runs were very simple. There was no power-assistance. Take the rudder for instance. This was connected to the rudder bar on the Flight Deck by "two pieces of string", like a rowing boat on a Park lake (and all the control runs were much the same). The locks simply clamped the cables and rods of the linkages (which were in fact a bit better than "string") so that they could not move. Of course these locks should never be touched in flight.

Nevertheless the Check Rider thought it a Good Idea. Surreptitiously he locked the elevators. := As the lock simply held the elevators where they already were, there was no immediate effect. Then the aircraft started very slowly to climb, though it was on automatic pilot. The Captain, who was the "handling pilot" for this sector, trimmed slightly nose-down. This, of course, had no effect as the control runs were clamped. So he trimmed a bit more. And then a bit more still.

The Check Rider watched, fascinated. How long would it take for the penny to drop ? Why didn't he try to move the yoke fore-and-aft (which would be locked too, but at least he should then guess what had happened). At last the Captain had almost full nose-down trim on. The Check Rider decided that this joke had gone on quite long enough. He unlocked the elevators !

The full nose trim now took control. The aircraft savagely "bunted" (a "bunt" is an inverted loop). The autopilot gave up in despair. Check Rider and Captain were thrown out of their seats, the latter onto the yoke (which did not help matters) and both then onto the panels and screen, then rolled onto the cabin roof as the thing turned over. In their frantic scrabbling, someone hit two feathering buttons on one side, shutting down two engines. :eek:

There was a Company rule that one pilot must always be strapped-in. They were doing everything "by the book". Miraculously, the strapped in F/O saved the aircraft (probably aided by the two dead engines, which helped him to roll out). With a thousand feet left he got back to level flight, and unfeathered the two engines. Captain and Check Rider were both battered and bruised, but still alive. ( A veil must be drawn over the scene in the passenger cabin !) They made a bee-line for the nearest airfield and landed. People staggered down the steps and kissed the ground (wouldn't you ?)

End of story, as far as "Flight" told it. But the questions crowd in. How did the wings stay on ? - they must have been stressed far beyond any designer's worst imagination. And what about the passengers ? How did they manage to keep them quiet - and the story out of the papers ?

That's all (as "Flight" told it). Believe it or not as you will. I keep an open mind.

Goodnight, all,

Danny42C.

Blimey !

Danny42C

30th Jun 2014, 15:25

Wee Ronny,

First, Congratulations on your "First Solo", and a hearty "welcome aboard" from this our noble crowd who gather in this "Crewroom in Cyberspace" (and natter therein to their heart's content). :ok:

If your Dad had joined 84 Sqdn. in June '44, it would be at a time that they'd just taken delivery of their Mossies (which had only just replaced the Vultee Vengeances they got in late '42), and before that had been on Blenheims in UK, doing shipping strikes in the Channel (and taking a fair hammering) before coming out to India in early '42).

He would have arrived just when the Mosquitoes started falling apart (the heat, humidity and monsoon rain having dissolved the glue which held them together), to the consternation of the bystanders and the dismay of the aircrew when this happened in the air. Did your Dad ever mention this ?....D.

Icare9,

Our Wing Commander Mike Warren seems a bit of a mystery man, the BBC Tees reporter gives his age as 88, which would make his age 19 when stumps were drawn on VE day. I know we had a lot of young promotions during the war, but even Guy Gibson had to wait till 23 to make Wing Commander....D.

Cheers to you both, Danny.

harrym

30th Jun 2014, 17:32

Danny42C:- I see no reason why your account of the DC4 control lock incident should not be true, stranger things have happened. However I would take mild issue with the statement 'As the lock simply held the elevators where they already were, there was no immediate effect' following the application of nose down trim. The trim tabs would have moved in the opposite direction to that hoped for on the part of the elevators and so (given that their attendant control surfaces were now fixed) would have acted as mini elevators in their own right and thus increased the tendency to climb. This can be illustrated by another incident that was well-known at the time, when a Dakota took off with the elevator gust locks in place (or one of them anyway, the effect would have been the same for one or both).

The pilot, having opted (correctly) for a wheels-up landing, achieved his aim by judicious use of throttle combined with using the trim wheel as described above for some marginal control of pitch; but unfortunately the port prop sheared off on touch down, and penetrated the cockpit with fatal consequences. Although this accident had occurred in the UK, it was common knowledge on 194 Sqdn at the time of my arrival there in July '45 as the highly experienced pilot had been a fairly recent squadron commander and was greatly liked and respected – a tragic business.

Wee Ronny

30th Jun 2014, 21:05

Hi

Thanks for your good wishes on my "first Solo" and IO didn't even take 8 hours to get there.

My dad flew the Vengeance with 84 Squadron a quite few times as the Mosquito's were delayed more than once. They did have issues but luckily my dad never had any with his serial RF699 it made it through a monsoon on the way back from Saigon in Oct 1945. when he landed the squadron Engineer pushed a pencil through the wing leading edge. This aircraft ended up as a "Christmas Tree" as that was all it was fit for. my dad said he always believed "his mossie" would always get him home and it did. If anyone reads the "Scorpion sting" by Don Neate can read all about the issues with the Mosquito with 84 squadron. (and my dad's time with them)
My dad broke his arm paying football and was off flying for 12 weeks so he never really was exposed to any possible problems with them.
84 Squadron is the only RAF unit not have been stationed in the UK since 1917 -18. They were in iraq then the Western Desert till 1941 and went to the Far East and suffered huge losses in the retreat to Java.

I have never heard Mike Warren called Bunny or any mention by him on Lightnings in the 1970's. I have spoken to the owner of the 619 squadron facebook site and he too can't find any trace of him in 619 ORB. So he is still a mystery folks. He does have a big group of medals and awards but even these don't help us much as they seem a bit odd. The little badge on his Jacket is the UK Veterans lapel badge not a Squadron badge. He has the Aircrew Europe & Italy Stars with a Defence medal. there is a year to 18 months worth of service alone after he joined a unit. I can see an MID on his War Medal too, so that must be listed in the London Gazette. He also has a Territorial Decoration & an Air Efficiency Medal which can account for over 28 years of service in the TA and the RAuxAF. I can't find him on the RAF Lists but Mike could be a middle name or even a alias of sorts, so there no easy answers to be found.
maybe time will tell.

Cheers

Alastair

Danny42C

1st Jul 2014, 18:51

harrym,

Tragic, as you say, after his having handled the situation so well. I would never have thought that, with such a small area (relative to the elevators), the trims could be used to such good effect (just shows, there's always something new to learn !)

I very vaguely remember, many years ago, a similar case in the US, where a big three-engined type (DC-10 or Tristar - don't think a 727) lost elevator control for some reason. The pilot managed to control Angle of Attack and airspeed by juggling the thrust of the two underwing engines against that of the tail. IIRC, he ended up with a very bent aircraft, but 2-300 crew and passengers all alive and kicking. Curiously, it seems that he had practised doing this very thing on the simulator (premonition ?)

The case aroused no little indignation, as the President of his Company (who cannot have been a pilot), whom you would expect to have lauded and richly rewarded him for saving the firm from very bad PR (and his Insurers from a massive payout, which would have been reflected in the premiums), instead belittled the affair, saying (in effect) "It's only what he's paid to do, anyway". There will be PPRuNers who remember this....D.

Wee Ronny,

Your: "My dad flew the Vengeance with 84 Squadron a quite few times as the Mosquito's were delayed more than once". This made me "sit up !" I thought all the Vengeance had been withdrawn from the RAF Squadrons (45,82,84 and 110) in April or May'44 at the latest, as the Mosquito (Mk.6 ?) was coming in (with all new crews, of course). Your Dad's old (Vengeance) Boss was S/Ldr A.M.Gill, but I can't remember who the new one was. (Could he have been the unlucky one killed by one of the first "wooden wonders" to display its new parlour trick ?)

Later that year I went down to Yelahanka to reconvert the Mossie Crews back on to VV but on arrival found I was out of a job (a better glue had been found and it was "As you Were"!) But 84 Sqdn were still there, for I flew their Harvard FT193 (Auth: F/L Milnes) in December.

Did your Dad say anything about the Vengeance (in particular) or anything else in those times ? If he was in Yelahanka Nov-Dec '44, we would have been in the same Mess (but the name doesn't ring a bell). So many names, so long ago !

The mystery of W/Cdr Warren deepens (the shade of Baron Munchausen floats in the air). Can nobody get a "fix" on him ? (Even with no initials, there can't be all that many Wing Commander Warrens (GD Pilots) in the later columns of the '44 List)....D.

Cheers, both, Danny.

Wee Ronny

1st Jul 2014, 19:33

Hi

To get thi thread back on to the title.

AC2 R G Cameron 1343390

Enlisted (deferred service) 12-3-40
Signed for Aircrew Training 26-11-40
Receiving wing(Lords Cricket Ground) 7-7-41
4ITW Paignton 19-7-41
21 EFTS Booker 6-9-41
ACDC Heaton Park 6-12-41
HMTS Bergensfjiord 22-12-41
31 RD Moncton Canada 2-1-42
33 SFTS Carberry Canada 6-1-42
Commissioned 21-4-42 Pilot Officer 123152
Pilots Brevet award 24-4-42
31 RD Muncton 5-5-42
31SFTS Kingston Canada 18-5-42
31 RD Muncton 14-8-42
HMTS Awatea 21-8-42
No 1Y dept Halifax Canada 24-8-42 Due to Ship hitting another in the convoy.
HMT Queen Mary New York 4-9-42 ( I've still got a coat hanger off this ship)
3 PRC Bournemouth 12-9-42
Married 21-9-42
7 AFU Peterborough 29-9-42 He hated the place!!!!! lousy CO too
10 FIS Reading 29-10-42
2 EFTS Worcester 17-1-43
197 Sqdn Tangmere 19-9-43 Just Visiting
2 EFTS Worcester 24-9-43
3 AFU South Cerney 12-4-44
1525 BATF Docking 17-5-44
3 AFU 23-5-44
5 PDC Blackpool 5-7-44
HMTS Strathnaver 17-7-44
BRD Worli Bombay India 16-8-44
84 Squadron Yelahanka 28-10-44 (mosquito's arrived in the Feb 45)
" Charra 24-4-45
" St Thomas Mount 22-6-45
" Baigachi 1-9-45 (awarded Burma Star for 1 days service)
" Hmawbi Burma 12-9-45
" Singapore 13-9-45
" Saigon 21-10-45 to 23-10-45 (Rtn Singapore)
" Batavia Java 11-1-46 (LST3035)
60 PTC Singapore 14-2-46
HMTS Largs Bay 15-2-46
BRD Bombay 22-2-46
104 PDC Cannock 15-4-46

So you can see his brevet took him just short of 10 months to achieve but his Flying training took over 18 months before he was allocated a full role as an Instructor.

I would say that enlistment to Combat flying would be similar for the brevet but most likely even longer to get to a squadron. surely AFU -OTU - HCU - LSF(maybe) then Squadron. So even 18 months would be a good run through the training; so a January 1943 enlistment (at 17 for example and being taken straight away) would give you a posting to a squadron in June 1944. Then over 100 ops before May 1945 would be some going for a 19 year old, for example.:ugh:

Any more thoughts lads?

Cheers

Alastair

Wee Ronny

1st Jul 2014, 20:13

Hi Danny

As you can see I have listed his postings etc for you all to see. Yes I got some wrong but these are now off his log books so are as accurate as I can make them now, sorry for the mistakes.

Dad didn't have Arthur Gill as his CO then but they spoke on may occasions in the 1990's. W/C Constable Maxwell DSO DFC was Dad's main CO (& he did not like him much though); he liked John Quinton (DFC & GC) his Navigator a lot as he was a great bloke.

He was in Yelahanka from Oct 44 to March 45. Who were you with then? After Arthur Gill it was Plumb, Aitkens & Jay as the unit CO's.

My dad flew Vengeance No AN764 3 times and Vengeance AN780 3 times in Dec 44. He said it was like flying a bus, he also said you felt you could go for a walk in the cockpit. (He only was Flying the Oxford and Harvard in Nov 44). he flew with f/Lt Milnes on 11 Dec 44 in Harvard FT193.
His first Mossie flight was 26 Feb 45 in HR638 and his second later that day wrote this A/C off. Log book says "Back Broken-Port wing off AND LOTS MORE" it is classed as Carelessness due to incorrect tank drill so no fuel no fly really. sound like a theory on another great fliers loss anyone?

He later saved HR583 ( Mar45) after the Port constant Speed Unit failed (no oil) landed on one engine. No brownie points as he and G McMahon refused order to bail out!!!!! Drat no caterpillar for him.

He and W/o George Mc Mahon (Nav) did a Beat Up of Batavia on 29 Sept 1945 enjoyed that bit.

Dad was Acting CO in Nov & Dec 45 when Constable Maxwell was in Java but there is no record of any more flying for him after the Saigon trip.
He was shot at by the Pre VC in Vietnam at the Airfield on Oct 15th he was waiting with his pistol with five shots for them and the last for you know who. He didn't like the idea of being a prisoner of the VC after seeing Changi etc, he said. He never fired the S & W at all though; as the RAF regiment sorted the raiders out. so that is why I am here I suppose.

Hope this help you out on my dad and what he did!!!

Cheers

Al

Ian Burgess-Barber

2nd Jul 2014, 07:58

Danny

I think the incident that you refer to in your last, is the DC10 controlled crash at Sioux City Iowa July 19th 1989.

Ian B-B

Flash2001

2nd Jul 2014, 14:01

IBB

No, The incident described was at Detroit.

Cheers,

Flash

Ian Burgess-Barber

2nd Jul 2014, 15:30

Thanks Flash,

You could well be right - you tell of the first DC10 cargo door blow out - AA 96 Detroit June 12 1972 - but that one stayed in one piece after landing and only had 56 pax on board. Danny refers to "a very bent aircraft and 2-300 pax". I hope that he won't take offence if I said that he might be mixing up memories from both incidents - after all both sets of pilots used similar techniques to control the problem, it was just that the Sioux City guys had no, zero, zilch, hydraulics at all, and the outcome of landing with no flaps/slats at high speed led to the inevitable outcome.

Ian B-B

AeroPhoto

2nd Jul 2014, 17:35

PS, After a brief Google, this should show the latest satellite image of Carlstrom, with a brief history of the site since your time. I believe that the juvenile correctional facility has now closed as well

I'm a little late but I'd noticed the mention of Carlstrom Field in Florida. The WW2-era buildings are almost all gone now. Ten years ago some of the original buildings within the circular driveway/road were still standing but appear to be gone now. Two of the original hangars are still being used though.

I shot these images on June 30 2014:

Click to enlarge...
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-rM65cdX/0/L/i-rM65cdXL-L.jpg (http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-rM65cdX/0/X3/i-rM65cdXX3-X3.jpg)

Click to enlarge...
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-NJhfmkt/0/L/i-NJhfmktL-L.jpg (http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-NJhfmkt/0/X3/i-NJhfmktX3-X3.jpg)

Remnants of the original WW1-era base are still clearly visible too (west is "up")

Click to enlarge...
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-RSfKmq6/0/L/i-RSfKmq6L-L.jpg (http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-RSfKmq6/0/X3/i-RSfKmq6X3-X3.jpg)

Danny42C

2nd Jul 2014, 21:29

Wee Ronny,

Back to your #5893 (think you've missed a "not" from your second para): Btw, I agree with your Dad's assessment of the VV (except that "Flying Bus" was a bit too generous - "Flying Brick" was more like it !)

Given that the VVs were there, what did 84 do with them ? Did the old brigade do any practice dives (to keep their hands in in case they were wanted again ? - as it was thought probable for a while, the Mosquito problem remaining unsolved and maybe would be found insoluble). Or were they just swanning around ? In which case, why not offer me one to play with ?

That of course was the reason I was there at all. It starts to make sense now. 84 would be the first to be "re-converted" from Mossie back to VV (in which case your Dad might have had me as his Instructor !) So they'd let them keep a few of their old VVs to be the "School" aircraft.

As I've related, the boffins had just had their "Eureka !" moment when I arrived; it was a case of: "That was Yesterday - it's All been Changed". I was a Supernumarary (probably on 84 Sqdn strength), so I could fly FT193 (clearly the Squadron "hack"). They got rid of me on New Year's Day to 1580 Calibration Flight at Cholaveram.....D.

Ian BB and Flash2001,

(From Wiki) Seems you're both right ! (although the cases are quite dissimilar)....D.

Cheers to you all, Danny.

Danny42C

2nd Jul 2014, 22:40

AeroPhoto,

First, Welcome aboard ! And Congratulations on your initial Post on this the best Thread on PPRuNe, and thank you for the professional pictures of the Carlstrom camp. I was an Aviation Cadet in Class 42C at Carlstrom from September - October '41, doing my Primary School under the Army Air Corps "Arnold" Scheme for RAF trainees.

Apart from the circular outline, everything has changed since my day, but I note that our swimming pool (in the exact centre of the circle) has been filled in (but you can still see a faint outline). The story of my time there should be in around Page 116 of this Thread.

Cheers, Danny.

EDIT: Page 117 !

Wee Ronny

3rd Jul 2014, 16:22

Hi Danny (and anyone else interested)

First, the "not" is missing as you say, you spotted the deliberate mistake, well done.

The details I have here, for the time awaiting the Mosquito, are as follows: -

The unit had 4 X Vengeance III and 2 x Vengence II and a Harvard (accordng to Don Neate's book) the Mk II's must be AN780 & AN764 that my Dad flew, as they are shown as this mark in his log. The other pilots with my Dad in the Vengeance's were F/O Paterson, F/O Downer and F/O Poole he also lists F/Lt Milnes and F/O Downer as pilots in the Harvard with him (FT193). In the Decemeber (8th to 18th) he did an Engine test, Familarisation flight, Solo, Practice General Flying and 3 dives in the VV. He didn't fly at all in the January 1945. The Mossies arrived in mid Feb 45 so the VV must have left by then. It seems that the VV III's in MU store had problems with their fuel tanks and they leaked very badly (Not inhibited correctly it seems) and not enough replacement tanks to swap them all out. Don Neate's book says that the VV flying was "Local" (and nothing else) so it must have been similar to what my Dad did above. Two flights of VV from the Squadron were to go back to the front on 30th Dec but this was quickly cancelled as the Mossie's were coming earlier than was expected.

I have a list of the all the VV's ( & Mossie's) that the squadron used if anyone wants that info.

Hope this helps.

If you ever want to chat, please pm your number and I will call you.

Cheers

Al

Danny42C

4th Jul 2014, 00:11

Wee Ronny,

Touché - I misread my "Vengeance" (Peter C. Smith), and there are occasional misdesciptions in my log, too (but mostly I got it right !)

To set the story straight (Peter C. Smith):

Vengeance II AN538-AN837 Vultee-built, British contract.
Vengeance I AN838-AN999 Northrop-built, British contract.
Vengeance I AF series Vultee-built, and AP series Northrop- built, British contract.

("British Contract": we paid cash (around $63,000 each), before Lend Lease took over).

Vengeance IA EZ series, Northrop-built, Lend Lease. *
Vengeance III FB and FD series, Vultee-built, both Lend Lease.

Don't think I ever saw a IV, still less flew one. But a small number were supplied to the UK, and modified as Target Tugs. (All IVs were Lend-lease).

Your Dad's remark: "Two flights of VV from the Squadron were to go back to the front on 30th Dec but this was quickly cancelled as the Mossie's were coming earlier than was expected" is most interesting. I arrived in Yelahanka on 26th October, to be told that the decision to reinstate the VVs in place of the Mossies had only just been rescinded. It would seem that (alone ?) among the four RAF Squadrons, 84 had been allowed to keep their full complement.

AFAIK, all the others had their VVs taken away from them in the summer (and the VV crews dispersed as the "new boys" came in). The two IAF Squadrons (7 & 8) kept their VVs until the Spitfire XIVs arrived to replace them.

It would take weeks to gather all the old RAF crews back in and collect the aircraft from all corners of the subcontinent; I'd think that mid-February'45 would be about the earliest date they could hope to have a battle-ready VV force again. But 84 looks as if it had been chosen as the "standard-bearer", perhaps for that reason they had the 4 x Mk.IIIs, but I never saw a III until April '45.

It was only one of the many "what if"s of the war: how would the VVs have performed in Burma if they'd been used for a third "dry season" ? The Japs were being pushed back, I think they would have done very well, hampering the Jap retreat by knocking out "strong points" delaying our advance, and generally making themselves useful on opportunity targets.

Of course, we'll never know now. (And why couldn't we have kept the VVs and the Mossies as well ?) The Mossies took the numbers of the squadrons, but the old crews were no use to them.

But the longest serving old timers had only come out in Spring '42, they would only have done 3 years when the '45 monsoon stopped play. And their aircraft were still all in Theatre !

Cheers, Danny.

EDIT: * But always the same aeroplane ! (the differences were only administrative)

Ian Burgess-Barber

4th Jul 2014, 17:10

F/Sgt Geoff started with 229 Group Comm Flight, Palam July 1st 1944. His last flight with them was on Sept. 7th 1945, so 14 months service in all.
For the first four months not much of interest occurs. He solos the Anson on July 2nd and the Percival Proctor on July 3rd. He flies “the milk run” Palam – Lahore – Palam in an Anson on July 5th and again on July 28th, in between are six or so Air Tests in both Anson and Proctor. Then from July 29 to Sept 14 he does not fly at all. I think that this may be because of the Monsoon deluge, Delhi receives most of it's annual rainfall in July and August. On the other hand he might have been ill (Delhi Belly)? I just don't know - the log book cannot tell me all.
Sept. 14 he is 2nd pilot in an Anson out of Lahore - after 40 mins. they return to Lahore and force land (no reason given). Sept 30th he logs an Air Test and Check Flight in the Fairchild Argus (Radial Engined version) followed by some circuits and local flying with one of their Indian A/Cs aboard.
Oct 2 he flies an Anson Palam - Lahore - Gujrat With “crew” as pax. Next day he takes them back to Palam, again via Lahore. This was the last time he flies an Anson until 1946. Oct 12th he gives a Squadron Leader 30 mins dual instruction in the Argus. Then on Oct. 30th he is introduced to the Beech 18 Expediter which seems to replace the Ansons from this time on.

In November things get busy and Geoff flies 17 days this month. (More like the pace he was used to with 21 FC). His passengers were: Nov. 14th A Major General, Palam - Sarsawa - Palam. Nov. 17th A L/Col, Palam - Lahore - Chaklala nightstop. Nov. 18th (Same L/Col) Chaklala - Peshawar nightstop. Nov.19th (A different L/Col) Peshawar - Basal - Risalpur - Peshawar nightstop. Nov. 20th (Same L/Col) Peshawar - Chaklala nightstop. 21st Nov. A Major, Chaklala - Lahore - Palam. Nov 28/29/30 he flies a civilian, a Mr Aichele, (presumably a Civil Service Nabob) Palam - Lahore - Gujrat - Chaklala nightstop. Chaklala - Basal - Chaklala nightstop. Chaklala - Gujrat – Lahore – Palam

Summary for November 1944 : Expediter (2nd pilot) 4.45. Proctor 1.45. Argus 36.00.

Ian B-B

Danny42C

4th Jul 2014, 18:44

It is a strange thing, but although any form of School should be a mine of good stories, I remember remarkably little of my time as an Instructor at Shawbury. Whatever, all good things come to the end sooner or later, and in summer '67 it was time for the next step. With my usual luck, I was disappointed (but not surprised) to draw a third AFS out of the bran-tub - Leeming.

ATC in all AFS is very much the same, the student pilots and their QFIs know all the same good old ways of making a Controller's life a misery, and have devised new ones. There was another novelty: at my two previous AFS (Strubby and Linton), they'd used Meteors and Vampires, both types I'd flown, and with which I was familiar. Now they were using the JP (Mks III and V), which I'd never had anything to do with, and so was an unknown quantity. The first thing I had to learn was the point at which you started to get worried (40 min, IIRC), which was better than the 30 min of the Meteor (I can't remember what it was at Linton with the Vampire, perhaps we didn't worry at all - maybe an alumnus of those days can jog my memory ?).

And Leeming was a Master Airfield, so a 4-watch system was in force. Admittedly this gives you a useful amount of time off, but then every fourth night is a whole "night bind" (1800-0800), which upsets family life somewhat. After a year there I got a "Supervisor" rating, which made things easier (I'm not sure whether as a simple 9-5 "day job", or with someone else on a two-watch system), as a Watch Boss.

We had to say farewell to our little OMQ at High Ercall. Fortunately, Iris's mother (in Marton) was 30 miles from Leeming, which was quite a possible commuting distance. Shortly before the Christmas of '67, a quarter came up in the "Coppice" at Leeming. My most vivid memory of the place is the little, square, diabolical coke stove in the kitchen (CHW supply). In this, I spent most of one freezing December night before we marched in, trying to get the beastly thing going (and you must remember that I was a skilled and experienced boilerman - as we all needed to be - by that time). As I recall, it was first cousin to the little black horror I had in my hut in Driffield in February '50, where I was in "Clear and Present Danger" of death by Carbon Monoxide poisoning every night. :(

Although we settled ourselves comfortably enough in the Coppice, our thoughts turned to getting a place of our own. We'd now been paying rent, either in Quarters, Hirings or privately, for fifteen years; it was a mug's game; it had to stop. After scouting around a bit, we settled on a fairly new, large dormer bungalow in Thirsk. Building Society and Bank came up trumps. In June of '68 we were "in" (and I couldn't sleep at nights for thinking of the monstrous debt I'd saddled myself with for the next twenty years).

Back at the ranch, they seem to have immediately put me to work on Approach. The CA/DF hadn't changed a bit, and there was a wonderful newcomer on the panel - the ARC-52 set. For pilot and Controller alike, this was "the second best thing sinced sliced bread" (the best being the aforesaid CR-CA/DF). No longer did you have to count studs on the box and try to remember which frequency was which, now you just dialled up whatever you wanted.

At the other end of the control desk was a very new creature indeed. The happy, carefree days of the Truck Radars were over for good (more's the pity !) Now two big radar tubes sat one above the other. The lower was easily recognisable: it was more or less identical to the precision radar in the old CPN-4s I knew from Thorney and Geilenkirchen, with glide path and centreline displays on the same tube. Now it was called the "PAR", (the Precision Approach Radar).

But the "search" PPI tube of the old CPN-4 had been replaced by a new Radar, the AR-1, which was a thing of wonder to all who came upon it for the first time - for it was a "quantum leap" forward for Airfield Radar. And I shall say a lot more about it next time, for this is quite enough for one night.

Goodnight, all.

Danny42C.

The old order changeth, giving place to new.

Danny42C

5th Jul 2014, 01:02

Ian BB,

Your Dad seems to have ranged over a wide range of Northern (British) India, specialising in the old NW Frontier of the Raj (my Dad was born (1875) to an Army family in Rawalpindi). The Fairchild Argus I never met (indeed, it was news to me that the RAF had them at all). From what Wiki tells me, they would have been at least as good, and probably better, than the Stinson Reliants which the Army used for Casevac in Burma.

I flew (only as a pax) out there in the Anson and Expeditor, and would imagine your Dad would have made the latter his choice if he had the option !

Danny.

Ian Burgess-Barber

5th Jul 2014, 08:23

Danny

Yes he did see a lot of the NW Frontier at first - but if you will bear with me, trying to bring his old log book to life, he does go south, and also to your neck of the woods in Burma in the course of his next nine months with the Comm. Flight.
You are quite right in thinking that he preferred the Beechcraft to the Anson (indeed as harrym has told us of the luxury of the US made aircraft in comparison to the home grown product). Beech aircraft are ever held in high regard in the general aviation world, and when I had a close look at a Fairchild Argus at a fly-in in the UK, the build quality of the bird was a joy to see. They were so desirable as personal aircraft that (pre US entry to the war when all production went to the military) Hollywood Movie Stars Robert Taylor, Tyrone Power, Mary Pickford and the great Jimmie Stewart all purchased their own.

Ian B-B

Buster11

5th Jul 2014, 14:29

Slight titular thread drift here. A colleague used to fly Horsas as a member of the Glider Pilot Regiment rather than the RAF, and subsequently Dakotas just post-War; would his input be of interest to PPRuNers? It certainly would to me. If so I'll ask him to put finger to keyboard.

ACW418

5th Jul 2014, 16:13

Danny,

Just checked my log book. As a member of the Alumni, as you refer to it, I note that our sortie lengths were from 0:40 to 1:00 with the longest at 1:10. I know not when ATC got worried about us but I seem to remember that after an hour we were getting a bit low on fuel. The shortest trip was 0:35 which was a solo formation trip and knowing how inept I was at formation was probably short because of my sawing at the throttle all the time. One dual trip in formation my instructor said that if I didn't slow down on the throttle the mechanism was likely to burst into flames!

ACW

Danny42C

5th Jul 2014, 20:46

Ian BB,

Most of the places you quote from your Dad's log I know; they are all in the North of (British) India. But Sarsawa and Basal have me foxed, where where they ? Chaklala we used to call Rawalpindi. Gujarat is right out to the West, stuck out into the top of the Arabian Sea. Why would anyone want to go there ? (Just curious !)

Yes, the Argus seems to have been a very useful and deservedly popular thing (about which I know nothing); it seems that many survive still. I'm not surprised that many Hollywood stars chose it as a runabout, and of course among them Jimmie Stewart (who was not a chocolate soldier), served gallantly in the Air Corps over here (I'd always thought on B-17s, but it seems on the B-24), and made Colonel.

He did the right thing, like David Niven, who on outbreak of War gave up his initial career in Hollywood to come back to Britain to rejoin his pre-war Regiment (the Highland Light Infantry) ...D.

Buster 11,

And to this PPRuNer, too ! Bring it on, please ! Ask him ! I would hope I speak for all of us !....D.

ACW418,

In later years (mid-'60s onwards), the AM had to accept that they'd recruited a generation of Bloggs who could neither tell the time nor read a fuel gauge. Accordingly they had to devise a way of compensating for this deficiency. All suggestions were variants of the "Come in Number 22, your time is up" megaphone call, familiar on any Park Lake.

With this in mind, you needed to remind Bloggs when he should take heed of his fuel state. In the case of the Meteor, IIRC, this was 30 mins airborne; for the JP it was 40 mins; for the Vampire I can't remember. All systems depended on the map-pins used by Local Controller - one idea was that the pin (taken out of the pin rack as soon as he called "Taxy") remained with Local as long as he was on frequency in the circuit. When he cleared circuit for Approach frequency, the pin was passed to an Assistant with headset on Approach, he'd already noted time airborne, set the pin in his board with the time, and watched the clock. When time was up, he gave tongue on Approach: the rest was up to Bloggs.

One thing must at all costs be avoided: never call a dual sortie (or the Instructor would be mortally offended). The method used at Leeming was practically foolproof: Bloggs (solo) would use "H", say. and his own personal odd number; his Instructor alone (or Bloggs dual) would use the Instructor's own even number. (or was it the other way round ?). So you must leave H24 or H38 alone, but look after H29 or H41. Worked like a charm.

Then they sought to semi-automate the system (but a veil must be drawn over that for the moment)....D.

Cheers all, Danny

ACW418

5th Jul 2014, 21:01

Danny,

I am familiar with the Jet Clock which was used in ATC but they never called us on the JP at Syerston or on the Vampire at Linton.

ACW

smujsmith

5th Jul 2014, 21:03

Danny,

Seconded re Buster11, I for one would love to hear stories of combat gliding, having only experienced fairly peaceful stuff myself. Also the dangling of an Army pilot flying the Dakota. I think there's always a spare seat in this crewroom.

Smudge:ok:

Ormeside28

5th Jul 2014, 22:14

February 1952. Topcliffe Yorkshire No 47 Squadron.

There were five Hastings Squadrons in Transport Command in 1952. Three at Lyneham and two at Topcliffe, No 24 (VIP) and No 47. They were all part of the Strategic Transport Force. Most of the aircraft had been used in the Berlin Air Lift and coal bits were still found under the floor on inspections.
We still had R.A.F. bases worldwide, and especially in the middle east and the Canal Zone. We flew out there quite regularly taking people and freight. Route flying out to the Far East was usually Lyneham to start, then Malta or El Adem, Fayid, Habbanniya, Karachi, Negombo, Changi. The Korean War was still on so Hastings fitted with Stretchers and accompanied by R.A.F. Nursing Sisters carried on from Changi to Clark Field in the Philipines and Iwakuni in Japan. They would pick up wounded there and bring them back to Lyneham.
Gliders were no longer used but parachute troops were. We experimented with carrying a jeep and a trailer, or two jeeps or two trailers, on a beam under the nose (and the pilots). Several crews went down to Abingdon and did various drops from various heights- big parachutes. It worked but was not a good idea. The aircraft didn't like it and the thought of a parachute opening without notice did not do much for our peace of mind! We did three drops in April and another to drop parachute troops, all at Abingdon. In May we were to put it into practice in the Canal Zone. The largest Airborne Exercise since the Rhine Crossing, so I looked forward to seeing it from the other end.

Chugalug2

5th Jul 2014, 22:44

Ormeside28:-
We experimented with carrying a jeep and a trailer, or two jeeps or two trailers, on a beam under the nose (and the pilots). In the traditional response, rather you than me, Sir! This configuration had passed into folklore by my time, to the extent that a trailer had supposedly become a gun, but whatever the makeup of this execrable arrangement it did not bode well for the business of overcoming gravity. That it was to be used operationally on a mass drop is news indeed, and I for one will follow your telling of it avidly.

Buster11, I second and third the wish to hear yet more of the Horsa. The whole business of how we operated gliders, how they were trained for, how they doubled up with the tug crews, how they were flown by RAF as well as Army pilots, all of whom were deemed to be combat troops as well, is a fascinating and still little understood part of our military aviation history. Ask your friend if he would kindly instruct us, please!

Danny, have you just hit Fast Forward? Are we already in 1968? Even I am now an old hand with 9 years under my belt and a mere 5 left. Where did it all go....?

Ormeside28

5th Jul 2014, 23:50

Thank you Chugalug. You must have been in Transport after me.
At Kasfareet we did a lot of formation flying. As a co-pilot in those days we were not fully converted on the Hastings- really just a pilots "mate" However on this formation flying the captain was struggling to fly and work the throttles so I "suggested" that I would work the throttles and he could concentrate on flying the aircraft. It worked and then we got on fine and I got plenty of pole time and he even let me do a take off!
We did the Exercise "Leap Year" in a valley away from the airfields. Very impressive as most of the Hastings force took part. We dropped the load of jeep and trailer and ten paratroops and two days later did it again.
Then we went up to Mafraq in Jordan with 50 troops to work with the Arab Legion and two days later brought them back. another couple of days wash up and back to Topcliffe via Lyneham.

We had a Tiger Moth and an Oxford on the station flight and I prevailed on the O.C. to check me out on the Tiger and convert me on to the Oxford, so he did and I was able to help him with his private air force.

Transport Command had a War Prize, a beautiful ex Luftwaffe yacht called the Austern Fischer and it was available for people to use. Six of us went down to Hamble by Hastings and joined the yacht at the R.A,F. Yacht Club on the Hamble river. We had a couple of days sailing off Cowes and the Solent and did a night crossing to Cherbourg. A day there and on to Alderney. We left there next on a rising gale and it took us two days to reach Portland and then motored back to Hamble where we were picked up by our Hastings and back to Topcliffe.

I thought that it was a very dodgy "do" taking a Hastings into Hamble, so I went to see the Wingco Flying and suggested that crews were taken by Hastings to Upavon and I would ferry them from there to Hamble and vice versa. This I did several times.
At the end of July King Farouk was deposed by General Neguib and we were all sent to Malta on standby for trouble. We went on to Fayid but it all quietened down without us being used.

The British North Greenland Expedition was exploring the high plateau in North Greenland at a height of 9000 feet. A Hastings was to go to Thule, a U.S.Base far north and use it to drop supplies, free drop from 100 feet, to enable the expedition to over winter. Mike Clancy was the captain and I was to be his co-pilot. We did the drops at Topcliffe and were all set to go when the Americans insisted that the pilots and navigator were to be commissioned officers, and I wasn't. Shame.
Anyway, off they went to Thule and did their first drop to the expedition. They had a white out and touched a wing. Luckily Mike was a big chap and managed to crash land level. Nobody was hurt but it looked as though the crew were there for the winter. However the Americans landed an Albatross on the ice, kept it rocking so that it wouldnt stick and used rockets and engines to bring our crew back to Thule. I cannot remember how they got back to Topcliffe, but they were back very quickly. The Hastings must be buried deep by now.

DFCP

5th Jul 2014, 23:56

Danny I wonder if this Burma story "rings any bells" with you.
In the US we have three non commercial TV channels for public interest programs.They are financed by the cable companies.
To day I happened to tune in during an hour program about Air Commandos.. It was a recording of a historian relating the story during a meeting in Kansas City last month
Apparently during -March 44?--a US operation using C47, s flew gliders ---containing British troops? --to a landing behind the Jap lines in Burma.The landings and susequent snatches were done at night.A mini bull dozer had been taken in and was used to clear teak trees felled by the locals .Eventually this allowed C47, s to land but earlier L5, s were used to evacuate casualties one at a time.
At the end of the program three participants were interviewed. One had earlier been with Dolittle on the Tokyo raid----There are only 4 survivors left. I think this man had been Dolittles co- pilot.
D

Danny42C

6th Jul 2014, 03:44

Ormeside,

This idea of taking off with all manner of heavy equipment as loose "deck cargo", so that your Hastings looks like a decorated Christmas tree strikes me as hazardous in the extreme, and qualifies as Folly Above and Beyond the Call of Duty. :ooh: Not this child ! Concur with Chugalug.

Your tale of the Hastings buried under the snow recalled the amazing tale (on TV some years since) of the batch of Lockheed Lightnings buried deep in the Greenland Icecap, and how one was incredibly (proper use of the word) dug out years later and brought up in bits, to eventually fly again.

Strange about the Americans being so sniffy about Sgt-pilots. Not in tune with their Classless Society at all. What was their objection ? (one of that noble breed Sept'42 - November'43 myself)...D

Chugalug,

How Time Flies ! Yes, my final years at Shawbury do seem to be telescoped a bit, don't they ? But I can't think of any more to say. As I mentioned in my #5542 p.278: "Now I've already said that, as we slowly grow closer to the end of my story, my memory does not get better (as you might expect)".
But worse !...D

ACW418,

Confirms that the Vampires at Linton simply were left to their fate if the occupants were too stupid to watch their fuel without the help of outside prompting .....D.

DFCP,

Clearly these are Orde Wingate's "Chindit" operations we're talking about. There must be miles of references on the internet.

Past my bed-time. Goodnight, all. Danny. sent 6.7.14.

pulse1

6th Jul 2014, 07:40

The Hastings must be buried deep by now.

According to the book about the Greenland expedition, the stunned silence after this crash was broken by the sound of one of the expedition team, Lt Cmdr Brett Knowles, racing down on skis with a bunch of tools to remove (pinch) anything useful he could find.

BK was a larger than life character and was my ATC gliding instructor not long after this event. Reading of the book was almost compulsory for his students.

Brian 48nav

6th Jul 2014, 09:03

The book 'But Not In Anger' The RAF In the Transport Role (Ian Allan 1979 ) has a chapter on the Hastings in Greenland in 1952.

The preceding chapter has an account of the time a propeller broke off a Hastings over Libya in 1950. It scythed through the fuselage fatally injuring the co-pilot who was resting behind the cockpit ( or was it called flight deck in those days? ). The crew attempted to land at Benghazi, at night, but struck a hillock short of the runway - all 4 up front were killed.

There were 28 survivors! Rearward facing seats!!

Danny - I am amazed at the detail, particularly ATC equipment, that you can recall! When I retired I seemed to dump all that when I handed in my headset and ATC manuals at LHR. As for my Herc' time, I can remember people and places extremely well, but being a technophobe hardly anything about kit.

Ian Burgess-Barber

6th Jul 2014, 10:13

Danny

Re your no.5907

For what it's worth - Sarsawa is 120 or so miles to the north of Delhi ex RAF, now IAF.

Basal lies to the west of Rawalpindi, east of the Indus, roughly half way to Kohat.

Gujrat (not GUJARAT) is roughly half way up the road from Lahore to 'Pindi.

'Best
Ian B-B

Chugalug2

6th Jul 2014, 10:43

Ormeside's story of the Greenland Hastings WD492 was covered by Pathe News and can be seen here:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvcMUO19evA

NB, Pathe recently released their library onto YouTube, so that these videos may now be downloaded and saved (on PCs, DVD's, etc), which wasn't possible from the parent site at:-

Ice Cap Men Home Aka Ice Cap Men Return From Greenland - British Pathé (http://www.britishpathe.com/video/ice-cap-men-home-aka-ice-cap-men-return-from-green)

Ormeside, thank you for your recollections of when the Hastings was relatively new, and mention of all those long closed ME stations. As for :-
At Kasfareet we know a song about that, don't we boys and girls?

Ormeside28

6th Jul 2014, 14:06

Thank you Chugalug. Film most interesting. You see what a big chap was Mike Clancy, needed his strength to stop a cartwheel.

The annual Coastal/RN Summer exercise happened in June and several Lancasters came to Topcliffe. A co-pilot was asked for for one sortie, a convoy attack using special illuminants. Who volunteered? Me.
The very exciting exercise was carried out and I was put in the left hand seat for the return to Topcliffe. A Lancaster!!! and after three tours in Coastal, I still remember it.
Coming back from Lyneham one day, the captain asked me if I had ever thought of a Commission. I said that I thought about it all the time, so it had been discussed and interviews with various people were carried out. I had one to go, with the AOC at Odiham. I was posted, and thought that was it.
I was posted to the School of Maritime Reconnaissance at St Mawgan. All pilots in Coastal had to be navigators and a pilot and qualified navigator went through the course of three months together.
During the course I was sent for by the AOC at Odiham, and all was well.
The course was obviously geared to maritime subjects. Lots of navigation in Lancasters, astro, bombing and gunnery, ship recognition and a week at Portland with the Navy. It all culminated with a weekend in Gibraltar, my "oppo" a F/O took it out and I navigated back. We were diverted to Marham which entailed navigating through the London Control Zone (at that Time). Back to St Mawgan and postings. I wanted to go on flying boats, so was posted to Calshot to the Sunderland Conversion Course. My posting to O.C.T.U. at Spitalgate came through, so Calshot was put on hold.
The course at Spitalgate was three months, very much run by the R.A.F.Regiment, and I am sure that my training with the Glider Pilot Regiment got me through.
Commission through, May 1953, father came to parade and lunch!!
I had to report to Coastal Command at Northwood. What a difference. Met at station with a staff car and entered by front door!!
"You are here to get your posting?" "No I am going to Calshot" "Oh no you are not. Calshot has closed . You are going to Kinloss and you can choose, Neptunes or Shackletons". So I chose Neptunes.

harrym

6th Jul 2014, 17:36

Brian 48Nav: ref your 5916 concerning the Benghazi Hastings in 1950, this has interest in view of recent discussion here of pilots having to cope with lack of elevator control. In this case, I seem to recall that it was down to the no. 2 engine shedding a single blade which not only caused fatal injury to the copilot occupying a rest bunk, it also severed the elevator control rods (or cables?). The captain's task was made more difficult by (a) it being a pitch dark night, and (b) what was left of the no 2. prop had taken out the adjacent engine as it departed the aircraft – so, in view of the fact that most of the occupants survived the crash landing, he did a remarkably good job; sadly, he was not one of the survivors.

Danny & others: Here follows the penultimate part of my 1943-45 story, perhaps at an apposite moment in view of recent chat here about military gliders. For me, this plus the next stage (Glider pick-up) were without doubt the most interesting and involving parts of my long training, but also sufficient to make me glad I never had to do it again in face of the enemy!

PART 7---LEICESTER EAST.

Our course at Wymeswold successfully completed mid-February 1945, there followed a spell of leave after which my crew proceeded to the Transport Command Aircrew Holding Unit at Morecambe. So down to Loughborough station (Great Central) for the last time, a place from which so many weekend journeys had commenced, and as the inevitable "V2" hiccuped its way south at the head of our train I reflected on what the future might hold; for with the war in Europe plainly on its last lap, a posting to the Far Eastern theatre had to be considered as more than likely.

Morecambe proved a pleasant interlude. The holding unit HQ was situated on the promenade in the requisitioned Midland Hotel, a slightly futuristic art deco building of the thirties looking rather out of place given the town's Victorian/Edwardian ambience but nevertheless of pleasing appearance; however, with normal Service accommodation being unavailable, the numerous boarding houses that in happier times would have provided rooms for holidaymakers were now utilised for our benefit. This suited both parties, the landladies because they were provided with a source of income otherwise largely denied by the exigencies of war, and us because most of the minor irritations of life on normal RAF stations were thus absent; indeed as I recall we had no commitment to the Service whatsoever other than reporting daily to the Midland, plus an extra weekly visit to collect our pay. Inevitably a good deal of time was passed in pubs & bars, of which Morecambe possessed a great number of a distinctly superior nature. This was a source of some friction with our landlady and her downtrodden husband, who were worthy and active members of the Band of Hope; many fading photographs of local temperance branch meetings & outings bore witness to their zealotry, and contributed to a general air of disapprobation concerning our way of life.

After several weeks of indolence we (and a number of other crews) were warned for posting to No. 1333 Transport Support Conversion Unit at Leicester East, for training in various tactical tasks: supply dropping, delivery of paratroops, towing of gliders and so forth. The journey south on Good Friday was more than usually uncomfortable for, with an early end to the war (in Europe, at least) plainly imminent, following years of deprivation the general populus was determined to have a holiday of sorts despite strong official discouragement. Consequently the train was jam-packed from Leeds onwards, and so it was both impossible and antisocial to insist on any exclusive right to our supposedly reserved carriage, making arrival at Leicester more than usually welcome.

Not far from the village of Oadby, the airfield was situated on open country now probably swallowed by the adjacent city. Planned to last about six weeks, our course of instruction was fairly intensive; so, with memories thereof consisting more of general impressions rather than of any event in particular, an attempt will be made to describe the various techniques taught to us there rather than write a narrative.

Supply dropping took two forms, either by means of electrical release of containers carried on racks beneath the aircraft or the physical ejection of objects from the main door, in both cases the supplies travelling the remaining distance to the ground courtesy of parachutes. In both instances it was necessary to fly fairly low and slow, as I recall about 600ft at 110 mph, rendering one extremely vulnerable in face of any enemy (memories of D-Day & Arnhem, not to mention the Rhine crossing, being still fresh in everyone’s' minds). On my first container-dropping exercise the instructor cautioned me to be sure of the release switch's exact location, so as to be able to find it positively when the time came; "finger it now without looking up" he said while yet some distance from the dropping zone. Fumbling above my head while controlling the aircraft at the same time, I located a switch saying "is this it?" but inadvertently moved it too, so that four containers descended into the Leicestershire countryside far from the DZ. My instructor was not pleased but could say little, his poor teaching technique being to some extent responsible for this fiasco.

Much time was devoted to open-door drops; not only was this a more flexible method of delivery, the army crews responsible for pushing the stuff out were also under training and, as there seemed to be more of them than us, we were kept fairly busy. Communication was by a system of coloured lights plus bell, ejection commencing or ceasing according to the pilot's signals. For them it was hard and dangerous work, today's roller conveyors, ball mats and side guidance rails being far into the future so that everything had to be manhandled to the door and then physically ejected - no safety strops or belts provided, real care had to be taken not to follow the goods out, while keeping one's footing in turbulent conditions at low level could be difficult given the added risk that air sickness might adversely affect judgment and concentration. For us at the sharp end it was an altogether more rewarding exercise; not only was it satisfying to deliver the goods accurately, as an additional bonus one could usually manage some semi-legal low flying on return from the DZ.

Dropping of live paratroops followed similar lines, except that this usually took place from a slightly greater height; and since it was live cargo being launched into space, extra care was taken in timing, assessment of drift & so on to ensure that it had the best possible chance of arrival within DZ boundaries. Considering they were all volunteers, to me none of them appeared over-enthusiastic prior to jumping, on the other hand I don't recall any refusals; and although I have always regarded parachuting as a form of mental aberration (after all, one got paid far more for staying in an aeroplane than for jumping out!), at the same time I have a sneaking admiration for anyone bold (or foolish) enough to do so.

Glider towing was also on the agenda. Many of the glider pilots were trainees like ourselves, so a good deal of time was expended hauling the large Horsa gliders round both circuit and countryside. As a towing pilot, one's job was fairly straightforward and largely a matter of remembering that the glider pilot was utterly dependent on your ability or lack of it. On gliding days, the Horsas would be lined up in single file on one side of the runway, tow ropes laid out ready in front of them, a similar line of Dakotas waiting engines-running on the other. A batsman would wave the lead aircraft into position ahead of the corresponding glider, halting it while the rope was attached to its rear tow hook; he would then wave the "slow ahead" signal to take up slack, then "Go" once the rope was taut. Takeoff usually followed immediately, the tug pilot having already obtained clearance from the tower. Full power was applied as soon as possible, this somewhat facilitated by a reduced tendency to swing owing to the glider's drag having a stabilising effect; nevertheless, time & distance to airborne was markedly longer than usual and on a warm, still day could be rather nail-biting. Although weight limits were doubtless laid down in some order book, we had none of today's performance data, ODM's or the like and so it was all rather hit & miss

Having a relatively light wing loading the glider inevitably became airborne first, but had to be kept down to a height of about 15-20 ft or otherwise the tug pilot would be unable to attain a correct flight attitude. Once he did so and was climbing away satisfactorily it was normal for the glider to remain in the "high tow" position, this being a more comfortable option for both him and tug. An intercom cable was incorporated into the rope so that in theory the pilots might speak to each other, but the system was hopelessly unreliable; the plugs usually fell out at one end or the other, so that the rest of the flight was conducted incommunicado.

This mattered less than one might think; the glider had to follow willy-nilly, its pilots doomed to place implicit faith in the tug pilot’s ability - and integrity, for he always had the option of pulling the emergency release knob. Mostly army SNCO's, the glider pilots’ ultimate unenviable destiny was to deliver their loads into some battlefield LZ, probably through a hail of shot & shell; following which, if surviving this ordeal, they were supposed to assist in leading the payload into battle. Some of them were surplus RAF pilots diverted into the Army's Glider Pilot Regiment, and occasionally I wondered by what small margin I had possibly escaped a similar fate.

To understand their point of view, one day I took a short flight in a glider. The relative silence and lack of vibration was noteworthy, as was also the hard work involved; control forces appeared heavy, which allied to occasional encounters with the tug's slipstream soon had both pilots sweating. However, what really hit home was just how much a misnomer was the term glider as applied to the Horsa, this becoming apparent when its captain pulled the tow release; as the rope whipped away, airspeed decayed with alarming rapidity and with 45 degrees of flap lowered we hurtled towards the ground at what appeared a suicidal angle. But touchdown was smooth, and with the hard braking permitted by a fixed nose wheel undercarriage we halted in very short order, a convincing demonstration of the Horsa's short-field landing capability.

It was my misfortune one day to be allocated for a cross-country towing exercise, an aircraft notoriously below par performance-wise; no reason for the deficiency was ever ascertained, but it was known to require greater expenditure of engine power than its companions for maintenance of any given speed or rate of climb. Further degradation of performance was guaranteed by the unusually warm weather, for after half an hour's struggle at max. continuous power we had barely attained 2000ft agl, by which time (with the cylinder head temperature gauge needles approaching the limit) I decided to call it a day and levelled off. However, during the climb the glider captain's distant voice had already been complaining scratchily down the intercom that his load of ATC cadets were going rather green about the gills, and now I was regaled with lurid accounts of their general malaise. I responded with anxious concern about my overworked engines, but eventually was forced to yield to his entreaties for a higher cruising altitude; to little avail however, as the engines soon started overheating again in return for only a marginal climb rate, and anyway the hot, turbulent air obviously extended way above any attainable level. There then followed a flow of increasingly caustic comments from behind, but fortunately one of the intercom plugs fell out and so the remainder of the flight was relatively peaceful.

A late highlight of the course was introduction to the SEAC Drop technique, still in use today for the airborne unloading of supplies at very low level when conventional methods are either impractical or too risky. Accompanied by instructors, several of us set off for Derbyshire's Peak District, where in line astern we proceeded to fly a triangular pattern at very low level. This was real low flying, hugging contours along valley sides, scraping over ridges at the end and dropping down again the other side; somewhere along the way dummy supplies were ejected at each brief passage over a designated DZ, the whole exercise intended to simulate the reality of forward supply in Burma's mountainous terrain. It was fairly demanding and enormous fun, although I doubt very much whether our euphoria was shared by the inhabitants of a picturesque village whose chimney pots were close-shaved each time round; but then, the War was still on (if only just), and such activity received much greater tolerance than today.

In fact hostilities in Europe finally ended during our course's last week, and a general "48" was declared for all; official recognition of the inevitable, for the whole country erupted into a bibulous, happy bacchanalia of a nature unthinkable in this day & age. All pubs were filled to bursting, endless groups of laughing people sang and danced in the streets all day and most of the night, while vast quantities of flags and bunting appeared from nowhere to festoon buildings large & small. After several hours of celebration in Leicester's bars and streets, long after midnight I boarded an Oxford-bound mail train to be dumped in a grey dawn a couple of hours later; where, after a short rest at home, I joined further celebrations in the city centre. All this might appear silly or even childish today, yet it is impossible to convey to those not alive at the time just what the War's ending meant to all; for after almost six long years of deprivation and (for many) much worse, for the second time in a generation and at most enormous cost in life, money and material, the evil of German hegemonism had been seen off in a most decisive manner. True, Japan remained defiant, but even though I for one knew that this might well concern me personally, I was not downcast; rather the reverse in fact, for with Germany now out of the way surely Japan could not long survive the Allies' undivided attentions.

A week or so after VE day my crew (which by this stage had acquired a co-pilot) plus a few others were notified of posting to RAF Ibsley, home of a small unit offering training in the esoteric art of plucking stationary gliders off the ground; a sure indication that our eventual destination was South East Asia, for it was with that theatre in mind that this technique had been developed. Boarding our train at Leicester’s familiar but now long-vanished Central station, my all-NCO crew found ourselves allocated a rather old-fashioned but immensely comfortable first class compartment, much to the rage of a party of officers in an adjoining, distinctly tatty third. Life looked good; the sun shone warmly, the war was over (mostly, anyway), our "V2" roared away lustily as it hustled the train up towards Rugby & points south, and we looked forward to the next two weeks at what was reputedly a remote and rustic little airfield situated in the midst of Arcady.

Danny42C

6th Jul 2014, 18:24

Brian 48nav,

Your: "Danny - I am amazed at the detail, particularly ATC equipment, that you can recall! When I retired I seemed to dump all that when I handed in my headset and ATC manuals at LHR".

All too soon I must disappoint you ! (see the way in which I've "chickened out" in my next - let copy 'n paste do the job for me) .....D.

Ian BB,

Tried Google with "Gujrat", says: "Did you mean Gujarat ?" But then it turns out that they are two different places, miles apart (this it seems, is now "disambiguation" - Come again ?).

Thought my knowledge of the subcontinent was pretty extensive, appears I have a lot to learn still (and that solves the problem of why they were going to "Gujarat" - they weren't !). Basal was a new one on me: looks to be not far from Peshawar (the VV OTU was there in my day, but never visited).....D.

Ormeside,

You seem to have had a life packed with excitement and adventure ! (but that's what we all signed up for, I suppose). Keep the stories coming, please !

All we old Sgt-Pilots achieved elevation to the Upper House in different ways. I got my Commission because my Boss was in a huff over the way the Wild Colonial Boys were being commissioned "over his head", and he reacted with: "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em". No OCTU for me, it just "came up with the rations".

"You are here to get your posting?" "No I am going to Calshot" "Oh no you are not. Calshot has closed" ! Hasn't this happened to every single one of us in our time ! ......D.

Cheers, all. Danny

Warmtoast

6th Jul 2014, 22:37

Ormeside28

Re your sojourn in Topcliffe and later involvement with Neptunes you may like to see this photo I took at Biggin Hill during the 1954 Royal Observer Corps "Recognition Day". It shows RAF Neptune MR1 WX547 from the Fighter Command Vanguard Flight (1453 Flight) based at Topcliffe in Yorkshire.

Vanguard Flight Neptunes carried out some of the initial Airborne Early Warning Radar trials over the North Sea, but according to Google they were not a success (see quote below).

By the 1950's, the Royal Navy and RAF had started the development of AEW systems. The Royal Navy ordered the development of an AEW Fairey Gannet, whilst using the AN/APS 20 radar equipped Douglas Skyraider from the US as a stopgap, and the RAF set up the "Vanguard Flight", also known as 1453 Flight, equipped with Lockheed P2V-5 Neptune's. They were not a success, and the flight was disbanded after 3 years. Therefore, the only operational AEW systems in use by the British armed forces up until 1970 were operated by the Royal Navy.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Biggin%20Hill%20Early%201950s/RAFNeptune.jpg

Danny42C

7th Jul 2014, 00:24

Nice pic (and a nice looking aeroplane) for all that.

D.

Danny42C

7th Jul 2014, 01:14

For a description of the AR-1, I cannot do better than put in the following (filched) text (bold type mine) from:

"THE DECCA LEGACY"

"Air Traffic Radars"
"6.6. AR – 1 AIRFIELD APPROACH RADAR"

"In 1959, the MOD was already conducting trials of a radar system against their own performance requirement specification and they were not content with the results. The Decca Radar Company was given 10 months to produce a competitive radar system; a product that was to become known as the AR-1 achieved this.

The AR1 was configured by bringing together elements of existing radars. The antenna and turning gear design was taken from the AWS-1. A variant of the ‘LOTUS’ Transmitter/Receiver would be produced to power the system with a peak power of 650 KW. operating at S-band, with a 1.0 microsecond pulse length and a prf of 700 pps .

The standard system was configured with two transmitters operating in frequency diversity (alternatively, in a single transmitter configuration). The receiver utilised a travelling wave tube RF amplifier from English Electric".

"The double curvature antenna was designed (cosec2 pattern) to give coverage out to 70+nm with a maximum height of 40,000 ft, (using a calibration aircraft such as the Canberra or commercial airliner of equivalent radar surface area). The antenna rotation rate was 15 rpm and circular-polarisation, at S-band, was introduced for the first time. The AR-1 was designed to meet both military and civil airfield approach control requirements with many different display configurations, utilising the new Mk.5 Fixed Coil Display".

"The AR- 1 radar became an international success with sales reaching 108 systems, of which 32 were to the U.K. MOD for use on RAF and Royal Naval stations in the UK and overseas. Much of this success can be attributed to the introduction of the transistorised Moving Target Indicator system - a world wide first into production. Details of both MTI and Display technology employed on the AR-1 are given in Chapters 14 and 12 respectively".

************************************************************ *****************

The enormous height and range (almost double what we had previously) swept by the huge radar lobe transformed life for the operator: he could "see" high level QGHs approaching the overhead (although there was always the "dark area", as in the old D/F "cones of silence"), outbound, turning and inbound, and warn Approach of (apparently) conflicting traffic. Cases like my Ahmed at Strubby ten years before were now impossible, for you could see what he was up to most of the time.

But remember, "the operator" in this case means "Talkdown" (who was his own "Director"): he could only help "Approach" (sitting next to him), when the former was not doing a PAR, or otherwise engaged. At other times Approach was on his own with just the CA/DF as before.

In fact, Radar had everything that an operator could possibly want (except a height-finder), and that would not be of much use when you are dealing with multiple targets which might be hopping up and down. They were fine when you needed only to find the height of the next wave of Heinkel 111s coming over the Channel (say), but in Area Radar the only answer is the radio Transponder (in universal use today) - but we had nothing like that.

And now both operating "heads" were far away from the Tower, over on the other side of the airfield. AR-1 was the usual large radar array on top of a high lattice tower, PAR was a separate structure on a turntable, so that it could be rotated to "look" up the line of approach to either 16 or 34 (control for selection was in the Tower). Of course, your radar mechs spent their time, and had their workshop, over there, and would only come across to you if the displays were giving trouble.

Radar Heaven ? Well no, not quite. The enormous depth of the radar lobe meant that it was showing everything in the skies. You could have two "blips" seemingly on collision course, but one might be at 5,000 ft and the other at 10,000 - but there was no way of knowing this unless you had identified both and were in radio contact with them.

Lower down, the very effective MTI (Moving Target Indicator) almost completely cancelled ground returns. But then the extremely sensitive radar gave such high definition that it was not unknown to find yourself talking to a bird rather than the aircraft you thought you had under control. If you could "zoom in " far enough, you could probably see bumble bees in your garden. Truth to tell, it was too good a radar for our purposes.

IIRC, you could "zoom" in from the 70 (?) miles of full screen down to 20 (?), with range rings every ten (every 2 at full zoom ?). And there was a wonderful new toy. You could displace the point-of-origin of the time-base (the "sweep") anywhere on the tube. So you could put your "centre spot" on Teeside airport (14 mi), zoom in to 20 mi, put your strobe onto 043 (or whatever), and so give an aircraft a far better PPI talkdown than they could possibly do with their puny ACR-7D.

That'll do for the PAR/AR-1. What else ? Well, Leeming had an ILS on 16, but it wasn't used much (did the JP have ILS - I should know !) And we had a Ghost. And that was about it.

More interesting stuff next time.

Goodnight, all.

Danny42C.

Embarass de Richesse !

Ian Burgess-Barber

7th Jul 2014, 15:28

F/Sgt Geoff managed to fly out of Palam on 10 days in December 1944, which was quite good going as Delhi is notorious for fog during that month. Several air tests were flown, and 2 Majors, 1 S/LDR, and 1 Captain were safely conveyed to their various destinations by him, in a Proctor or an Argus and he also logs 2 more hours 2nd pilot in the Expediter. No flying was undertaken from 23rd Dec. until 4th Jan. '45.

Summary for Dec. 1944. Expediter 2.00 Proctor 12.45 Argus 16.45

Just an air test on Jan 4th and then, a serious block of flying commences on Jan 6th which occupies him for 19 days.
He flies Argus No. 806 with a S/LDR Bates as his passenger for the entire trip.

Jan 6 Palam – Allahabad 3.15
Jan 7 Allahabad – Gaya – Dum-Dum 4.45
Jan 10 Dum-Dum – Jessore – Comilla 2.15
Jan 12 Comilla – Silchar – Kumbhirgram 2.00
Kumbhirgram – Imphal 1.00
Jan 14 Imphal – Tamu – Indainggale – Kalemyo 1.30
Kalemyo – Indainggale – Tamu – Imphal 1.30
Jan 15 Imphal – Kohima – Manipur Road 1.30
Manipur Road – Kohima – Imphal 1.15
Jan 16 Imphal – Kumbhirgram 1.00
Kumbhirgram – Silchar – Comilla 2.15
Jan 17 Comilla – Fenni – Hathazari 1.00
Hathazari – Chittagong 0.30
Chittagong – Fenni – Comilla 1.30
Jan 18 Comilla – Jessore – Dum-Dum 2.15
Jan 22 Dum-Dum – Bishnupur – Charra 1.45
Charra – Ranchi 1.00
Jan 23 Ranchi – Jharsuguda 1.30
Jharsuguda – Local Flying 1.00
Jan 24 Jharsuguda – Allahabad 4.15
Allahabad – Palam 3.45

So what was that map-reading-marathon all about? Any theories anyone?

No rest for the wicked. Jan 27 he takes a Major Warren up to Peshawar via Lahore in a Proctor (656) and comes back, same day, with no return pax. Jan 28 In Expediter 476 he does 1.30 circuits & bumps with F/LT Archer. Jan 29 an air test in Argus 554. Jan 31 F/LT Archer gives Geoff a 30 minute air test in Expediter 149 and passes him as 1st pilot henceforth on “the Twin Beech” with 9.45 on type. Thus concludes 17 days flying in January.

Summary for Jan. 1945. Expediter 2.00 Argus 42.00 Proctor 8.30

Ian BB

Danny42C

7th Jul 2014, 18:55

Ian BB,

"We're on common ground now !", I first thought. Then I checked dates and got out my log. I was in the party "shanghai'd" on 13 Nov'43 from the three RAF VV squadrons to beef-up the new VV No.8 (IAF) Sqdn, and get it into action.

On 29 I flew my first trip with 8 to Ranchi (no idea why). Presumably we were at Chaara then. On 4 Dec'43 to Digri, 12 Dec to Double Moorings, 17 Dec into action all over Arakan, did my last 19 ops until untimely end on 24 Feb.

So it would seem that we both knew Dum-Dum, Jessore, Chittagong, ("Hathazari" couldn't be "Dohazari" by any chance ?), Khumbirgram (were they still talking about the elephant ?) Chaara *, Ranchi, Palam (Delhi) etc. But never at the same time. Fortunes of War !

What was he doing ? All sorts of people kept coming up from the West all the time, getting in the way, asking stupid questions, and usually departing swiftly when they found how close the Japs really were. Don't remember any Proctors or Argi. Was one character who turned up at K-m with a Tiger Moth (God knows why), loudly complaining that it had taken him a whole week to get there from Mauripur (?)

Captain of a Twin Beech with 9.45 ? He was "jammy" !. I was captain of a VV with 0.20 on type. "Think yourself lucky, mate - that was more than I had", said my Instructor (F/Sgt Reg Duncan, RCAF).

Happy days. Danny.

* I'm sure we spelt it like that ! But Wiki insists "Charra" - but still only knows about the B-29s there. But then the VV was the invisible aircraft as far as the rest of the RAF was concerned...D.

Brian 48nav

7th Jul 2014, 20:29

Danny, Chugalug will, I'm sure, well remember a pilot on 30Sqn Hercs', and may have known him on Hastings, one 'Jolly' Jack Huntington.

Jack had flown VVs and Spitfires on the Arakan front - maybe your paths crossed. He was a 'reet' Lancashire lad from a fishing family at Fleetwood, quite short, with a beaked konk and appeared to have no neck. A legend in his own lifetime!

I think he may have converted to transport not long after WWII; the stories about him were many. Apparently he was ordered to attend Jurby to be commissioned sometime in the late 50s and it all turned to worms when the first corporal instructor to chew him off was told in no uncertain terms to 'fook off'.

On another occasion, by now a Flt Lt, he was in the OM bar at South Cerney ( the then domestic site for Fairford ), took umbrage at the juke box playing, went off to his room, came back with a pair of pliers and snipped the wires to the speakers, muttering 'that'll stop that bloody racket'.

As befitted a former NCO pilot a very smartly turned-out officer but still equipped with a sprinkling of industrial language. I think he PVRed aged 50 in 1973 having decided the modern world was not for him!

GrimReaper71

7th Jul 2014, 20:54

Project Propeller organiser signing in, first time post.

I fear I must tread carefully here, in case I make assertions that are quite untrue. However, I can comment thus:

I too was surprised by the age reference in the BBC clip. At this stage, I thought it was perhaps an editorial error, or perhaps there had been an under-age sign-up.
During the course of trying to find veterans for Project Propeller, I encountered a lot of people with links to Squadron Associations. In the past few days, I have been in touch with a researcher who has access to the Operational Record Book of 619 Squadron, with whom Mr Warren states that he flew. There is no-one of that name listed in the ORB.
The badge on the blazer worn by Mr Warren at the event in June was a generic Bomber Command crest, it was not a specific squadron badge.
I acknowledged every veteran registration for Project Propeller with a telephone call. Sometimes this developed into a lengthy conversation, as it did in this case. The tales of wartime service related by Mr Warren have already been noted above, copied from another forum. The telephone call lasted for nearly an hour; the demeanour shown on the telephone, and that shown on the day were markedly different; a willingness to chat on the phone, a marked unwillingness to do so in person.

I really do hope that there is a rational explanation, rather than the one I fear. I would find it hard to adequately articulate my feelings on the subject if a deception has taken place.

Ian Burgess-Barber

7th Jul 2014, 21:10

Danny

Captain of a Twin Beech with 9.45 ? He was "jammy" !. I was captain of a VV with 0.20 on type.

You were not, under fire, guaranteed, to come back, whereas Geoff was expected to to deliver his pax, without drama, to their destinations, and then come back for more.

Ian BB

Danny42C

7th Jul 2014, 23:36

Ian BB,

Not as heroic as you paint it, I'm afraid. 110 Sqdn was well back out of trouble in West Bengal when I was "converted" onto the VV.

Even when we got down to business in Arakan, ours were the safest ops imaginable...D.

Brian 48nav,

Doesn't ring a bell, I'm afraid. The Spitfires were well back, I think, it was only Hurricanes with us in Arakan.

Now, if he was in VVs, there were four RAF Sqdns of them, and two IAF. I was on 110 (RAF) in Arakan in pre-monsoon '43, and in Assam post-monsoon, up to November '43, then back in Arakan with 8 (IAF) Jan'44.

As we were only operating on rough "kutcha" strips there, there was only room for one squadron on each (I can only remember being with 82 at Chittagong (hardstandings) for a few weeks early '43, but we didn't socialise at all).

Got out in '72 for same reason as your Jack.

Sorry, Danny. (Cheers, both)

Taphappy

8th Jul 2014, 16:02

Grim Reaper,Danny42c

I have been following the tale of Mike Warren with great interest.
The book 619, History of a forgotten Squadron by Bryan Clark contains a list of Aircraft Captains who served with the squadron from June 43 to May 45 and there is no mention of the above named gentleman.
The plot thickens!!

Ormeside28

8th Jul 2014, 16:14

Thank you Warmtoast and Danny.

Off to Kinloss! Night sleeper from Euston, woke in the Highlands, changed at Aviemore, village then, vast now!
Kinloss was a wartime station. Wooden huts and messes and home to No 236 Operational Conversion Unit with Neptunes and Shackletons and the resident Neptune squadron. No 217 under the command of the famous Wing Commander Mike Ensor.

The Lockheed Neptune was a development of the Ventura which was a development of the Hudson, so Lockheed was not unknown to the R.A.F.
A modified Neptune called the Truculent Turtle held the long distance record, at that time, 11000 miles from Perth, Western Australia to Columbus Ohio

The Neptune was quite a big aircraft with lots of good ideas. It had two very reliable Wright Turbo Compound engines of 3500 horse power. The turbines in the exhaust gave an extra 400 horse power. In 1200 hours I only had one engine failure. It had reverse pitch on the very large propellors which enabled short landings and less wear and tear on brakes and tyres.
It was armed with front and rear turrets containing twin 20mm cannon and a twin mid upper turret with point 5 machine guns.
In an attack, lift spoilers on the top of each wing and operated by a button on the control column allowed the selected wing to drop giving a very steep turn. There was an electric "Varicam" in the tailplane which helped to flare when landing. The tip tanks carried 250 gallons each. The left one also carried the APS 31 attack radar and the "bubble" under the fuselage carried the APS 20 which gave all round cover and could transmit the picture to a friendly warship or carrier.
We had a decent bomb bay and also rocket rails under each wing to carry 16 rockets. It was very much an all electric aeroplane with an enormous circuit breaker panel by the entrance to the cockpit.
There was automatic synchronisation of the engines,monitored by a BMEP guage, brake mean effective pressure, which gave the power of each engine. On run up , a difference of 1!/2 pounds was allowed. If more , return to dispersal. Believe me that instrument was the most watched "far out"!!

We did two weeks ground school to learn about the systems and were crewed up for the course. Two pilots, two navigators, an engineer and five signallers (gunners). The engineer sat on a wooden chair in the entrance to the cockpit. At his leftwas the electrical panel and all the circuit breakers. In front of him, under a flap in the floor was the fuel set up, transfer cocks etc.
The aircraft was very quiet. We could talk between the pilots and engineer without intercom. W e just wore headsets and throat mikes.
This all changed later when we joined our squadrons.

It was quite a job to board the Neptune and it paid to be fairly slim and fit. there was a tunnel to crawl along to get to the front turret, and you had to crawl overthe wing which came through the aircraft to get to the back turrets. However it was a lovely aircraft to fly and an interesting one to take abroad and to other stations.

Kinloss was very busy so we did most of our circuit work at Milltown a few miles to the east. Night flying at that time of the year was difficult as there were only a few dark hours during the summer.

Solos over (I was at ITW in 1943 with my instructor), it was applied flying. Navexs, North Sea and Atlantic, bombing, gunnery, rocketry, radar homings until the end of the course at the end of August 1953.

Postings, where? .... TOPCLIFFE!!! (again)

Danny42C

8th Jul 2014, 17:16

GrimReaper71,

Let me be the first to welcome you aboard this best of all Threads (as it is in our estimation, at least !), and to express my admiration for the work done by your organisation "Project Propeller", which must have given, and is still giving no end of pleasure to many old-timers.

I've several times in the course of my Posts mooted the possibility of securing new members from your grateful beneficiaries for this "Gaining a RAF Pilot's Brevet in WWII" Thread, for last year it seemed that the line was destined to end with me. Happily, two more have recently surfaced, but in the nature of things there cannot be many more to come, and we need all the help we can get !

Now to the matter at hand. There must be many others who are deeply suspicious of this story. There have been very successful hoaxes of this kind in the past. Btw, could you let me have the name (on open Post, so we can all have a look) on that other Forum which you mention as taking an interest in this puzzle ?

As you say, the age is the essence of the problem, for if it be correct as stated by BBC Tees, then things simply don't add up. Take his reported claim that he "trained with Gibson". Gibson was born in 1918, he'd be 96 (next month) had he lived, that can't be right !

Regards, Danny.

GrimReaper71

8th Jul 2014, 19:44

Good evening Danny, and others.

At a Project Propeller event, I think about 5/6 years ago, I had the pleasure of meeting the originator of this thread, and did have a read through it as a voyeur. I must have a gap of several years to catch up on though!

The Forum I refer to is simply the Project Propeller thread that I started about the 2014 event, during the course of which I recounted the story I had been told. My comments have been cut & pasted above, there is no further discussion about the gentleman in question.

As and when I have anything further to say - and I expect that I will - I shall share this.

(As an aside Danny, are you a registrant for Project Propeller? We had 161 veterans this year, it was a huge success. Always looking for veterans to join - I found 30 new registrants this year)

ricardian

9th Jul 2014, 15:06

I'd often read about this incident where two Ansons collided and landed still locked together, here's a bit of newsreel about it

Ian Burgess-Barber

9th Jul 2014, 16:30

The first two days of February Geoff spent in further “getting to know” the Expediter - circuits, S E flying, & overshoot procedure. The 7th he was back in Argus 806 taking a Sqn/Ldr Gibb from Palam to Riapur via Allahabad and Bisalpur. The 8th he flew him from Riapur to Jharsuguda, then they headed for Allahabad, but twenty mins. out the engine began to fail and they returned to Jharsuguda for rectification. After a 30 minute air test, Geoff was able to complete the journey to Allahabad with Sqn/Ldr Gibb. He returned to Palam the following day with no pax.
Feb. 13/14 more air tests in Expediter 476, and then on the 15th he flies a civilian (Mr Baillie) in an Indian registered Proctor, VT-A5B, from Palam to Jodhpur, and returns the same day as 2nd pilot in Dakota 536. Feb 16 he gives their Harvard (546) an air test, and next day Expediter 244 is given a 45 minute air test as well. He was to use this particular A/C on a three day trip to the south which went as follows:

24th Feb. Palam – Bhopal – Poona nightstop.
25th Feb. Poona – Yellahanka – Arkonam – St. Thomas' Mount nightstop.
26th Feb. St. Thomas' Mount – Hakimpet – Nagpur – Gwalior – Palam.

Again in the same Expediter 244, on 28th Feb. he flies a Wg/Cdr Chalmers from Palam to Dum-Dum with stops at Allahabad and Bikram en route

Summary for February 1945. Expediter 25.30 Dakota 2.00 Harvard 0.30 Proctor 2.15 Argus 17.30

March 1st he continues to fly Wg/Cdr Chalmers, Dum-Dum – Comilla nightstop.
March 2 a short hop (0.45) to Lalaghat nightstop.
March 3 Geoff returns to Dum-Dum without pax.

March 5 he flies a Sqn/Ldr Firth as follows:
Dum-Dum – Cox's Bazaar 1.30
Cox's Bazaar – Akyab – Ramree Isl. 1.05
Ramree Isl. - Akyab – Cox's Bazaar 1.30
Cox's Bazaar – Dum-Dum 1.30

March 6th he returns to Palam via Gaya and Allahabad.
The rest of March consists of air tests and “milk runs” with only two new destinations, Maharajpur and Ahmadabad

Summary for March 1945. Expediter 29.10 Harvard 2.45 Proctor 0.45 Argus 2.30

Ian BB

Danny42C

9th Jul 2014, 18:12

GrimReaper71,

I'm grateful for your kind offer to enlist me in your list of lucky oldies, but I'm afraid I'm far too frail now to take advantage of it. But thank you all the same !

I gather your first Post was the "cut 'n paste" you refer to - sorry if I've started a hare running ! On the main subject, surely it must be possible for someone to get hold of the '44 and '45 Air Force Lists. Could the Reference section of a local Library get them for you, if asked nicely ? (not me - too immobile).

Matter of interest: do you ask your potential "customers" to show their Log Books ? (Everybody hangs on to those, don't they ?) That should flush out a few "Walter Mittys", I'd think.

Cheers, Danny.

Danny42C

9th Jul 2014, 18:35

Ormeside,

Your Neptune sounds as good as it looks. And you had all the bells & whistles imaginable, too.

I never had to go through any tunnels myself, but I believe that in the (pressurised) B-29s there was always some anxiety in the tunnel about what might happen if the pressurisation failed at one end - but not at the other - and you became the slug in a giant airgun !

The Wright Compounds must have been one of the monster 4-row radials (the "corncob engines"). IIRC, they had to give up after four rows as they couldn't work out how to aircool a fifth. No doubt your turbos exhausted near the engines. In the P47 "Thunderbolt", a long exhaust pipe led from the Twin Wasp to the turbo in the bottom of the fuselage a long way back.

This caused much alarm and despondency among onlookers not familiar with type when you cranked-up, for the usual gush of flame, smoke and soot came out not where expected, but near the tail, and they feared the worst.

Danny.

Ormeside28

10th Jul 2014, 09:04

Thank you Danny and Warmtoast. I forgot to say that in the starboard tip tank on the Neptune we carried a 75 million candlepower searchlight which was controlled from the co pilots position. He also had a portable APS31 which could be fitted to a bracket so that he could control an attack at night on a submarine with the captain on instruments (and not supposed to look out!!)
Danny the Wright Turbo compound was only a twin row.

Now back at Topcliffe, different mess!. Transport Command and their Hastings had gone and Topcliffe was now a Coastal Command station.There were two Neptune Squadrons, Nos 203 and 210, commanded respectivly by Squadron Leaders Horton and Kerr, both soon to become Wing Commanders.The squadrons had just given up their Lancasters and converted to Neptunes, shortly they were to be obliged to post some members to form No 36, also at Topcliffe. We also had No 1453 Flight of three Neptunes but they were Fighter Command and used for Airborne Early Warning.
The people we joined were very experienced Coastal men, and they taught us so much of the Coastal Profession. (Who will teach Maritime Air now if we ever have a Maritime Force again- read Big Steamers by Rudyard Kipling)

Fareastdriver

10th Jul 2014, 09:25

A friend of mine is part of the team that flies a Neptune in Australia. In the United States there are several flying and also working. Neptune Aviation operates six in the fire-fighting role in company with, believe it or not, four BA 146s.

exMudmover

10th Jul 2014, 10:11

Danny,

I have emailed you about the time we spent at Leeming

Look forward to hearing from you.

ExMudmover

Ormeside28

10th Jul 2014, 11:57

Gradually we worked up to three squadrons at Topcliffe. Plenty of trips to the rocket and gunnery ranges on the Lincolnshire coast, Mablethorpe and Theddlethorpe, bombing on towed targets and also, on navexs, flame floats away from shipping. There were Ocean Weather ships , converted corvettes and frigates, Juliet at 20W and Kilo much further out. We dropped mail and papers to them, always welcome. Exercises with the R.N. in the Channel and North Sea and off Londonderry. We went to the Joint Anti Submarine School at Londonderry for a month each year, and also to the school in Malta, "Fair Isle" with the Mediterranean fleet. We were able to go out in the ships and submarines which was enjoyable. Also, with the Neptune's APS 20, we carried out exercises with the Fast Patrol Boats out of Felixtowe, vectoring them on to Dutch FPB's out ofHolland. I had two days on one out of Felixtowe, three Merlins, 45 knots, some speedboat. We were lit up by one of our Neptunes and realised how powerful was it' searchlight.
The final exercise at Jass was escort to a convoy leaving the Clyde and being attacked by the Londonderry submarines. Quite dodgy around the Mull of Kintyre. You may remember Danny that one of your ex colleagues from Valley was the Captain of a Neptune which hit the Mull. (We remember that every year at Topcliffe Church.)
Another of our tasks was shadowing our Soviet friends up the Norwegian coast as far as North Cape.
I was given a Captaincy in the spring of 1954 and my first co-pilot and I remained close friends until he died two years ago. When the Squadron went to Jass in the spring, as I had just done the course, I was put in charge of our Neptune at Ballykelly. Lovely! Air tests up the Inner and Outer Hebrides. Self authorising.. A real OCTU exercise "what would you do if you were in charge of fifty men?"

MPN11

10th Jul 2014, 19:41

Danny42C .. back from holiday, have read, nothing to contribute about your waste of time at CATCS :cool:

If only you had moved on to Area Radar, where the 'real ATCOs' live :)

Danny42C

10th Jul 2014, 23:23

Ormeside,

When 20 Sqdn disbanded in Sept'51, the pilots were scattered to the four winds. Can you remember the name of the one who ended on Neptunes ? ....D.

MPN11,

But we turned out some very fine crops in your time, didn't we ? Posted to Area Radar ? Smelling salts, quick ! ....D.

Cheers, Danny.

Danny42C

10th Jul 2014, 23:38

It happened on a warm afternoon on 31 July'67, so I can only just have been posted in from Shawbury a few days before. There was a train crash on the NE Main Line near Thirsk.

RAF Leeming played quite a useful part in the subsequent rescue. One of our (dual) JPs just happened to be flying in the vicinity; they were alerted by the huge cloud of dust caused by derailed cement wagons tearing up the roadbed until the severed brake pipes could automatically cause the remaining parted halves of a goods train to stop.

They went over to see what had happened: it was plain enough to see that the two northbound (fast and slow) lines were blocked by wreckage. The "Thirsk Straight" is what it says, several miles of dead-straight track along which the passenger express drivers customarily "get the clog down".. They looked up and down the lines, and were horrified to see a long express about two miles south, running very fast, coming up on the now partially obstructed fast line.

There was no time to give any warning (even supposing that it had been possible to communnicate with the express driver), and they were helpless witnesses as this train, sparks flashing from the wheels under heavy braking but still travelling fast, come upon the obstruction. This threw the train off the line to the right, ripping the sides out of several carriages as it did so. It was clear that there would be casualties (in fact, seven killed and 45 injured).

Of course the Instructor was onto Leeming "Approach" at once; as he still spoke an Assistant was dialling 999. The Instructor could advise the exact position of the accident (a few miles south of Thirsk), and the apparent best road access for the emergency vehicles. And so it was that when a farm hand arrived, gasping, at the nearest farmhouse across fields a mile away to telephone for help, the blue lights were flashing on the horizon and the ambulance sirens could faintly be heard in the distance.

The time (23 minutes) to respond, doesn't sound all that fast, but then I suppose they had to came up from York, and would undoubtedly have been longer without our timely assistance. It was very good PR for RAF Leeming, anyway.

Reference:

Thirsk rail crash (1967) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirsk_rail_crash_(1967)

Goodnight, all,

Danny.

Glad to be of assistance !

Ormeside28

11th Jul 2014, 13:56

Danny, The name you asked for is Geoff Finding. We have a reunion of ex-Neptuners every year at Topcliffe in October. A Church Service and then a drumhead service in the Cemetery to remember that Neptune (and our other lost friends). Now two of the crew daughters attend, they were babies at the time of the crash and are now grandmothers!! We put up a Torridon sandstone memorial on the site of the crash in July 1998. A nephew of one of the ex Neptuners was C.O. of a St Mawgan S.A.R. 203 Sqn Sea King, flew up to the Mull and took us all up to the site. One of the 36 Sqn took Holy Orders when he left the R.A.F. and conducted the service. We even had a piper. We have a plaque in Topcliffe church and the service is well attended.

MPN11

11th Jul 2014, 19:16

But we turned out some very fine crops in your time, didn't we? Posted to Area Radar? Smelling salts, quick! .... :D

That's an interesting observation, and soooo 60's. :=
All the airfield ATCOs at the time had this 'thing' about Area Radar postings. I did 2 airfield tours, and 2.5 area tours as a JO ATCO. On mature reflection (which I can do occasionally) I have to say that Area was more rewarding, from the 'providing a service' perspective. Yes, for sure we didn't get to see pointy-jets doing their thing, but I guess we saw the bigger picture. And it was very satisfying.

As a sqn ldr, I did Senior Supervisor and OC Training Sqn at Eastern and SATCO at Waddington and Stanley (thus exposing myself to any ATCOs around here). SATCO at Waddo, as Strike Force and a MEDA (and IC Station Exercise DISTAFF), was without a doubt a dream posting ... but the challenges of Eastern, supervising and training 50 ATCOs and 150 AATCs, had its own interest too.

Danny42C

12th Jul 2014, 02:39

Ormeside,

Your:
"Who will teach Maritime Air now if we ever have a Maritime Force again - read Big Steamers by Rudyard Kipling ?"

Know it well from boyhood: "....And the joints that you carve/Are brought to you daily by all us Big Steamers/And if anyone should hinder our coming, you'll starve".

True when written a century since, proved true in 14/18 and 39/45: (Churchill said it was his greatest worry of the war). We were lucky that Hitler was a land animal. If he had only given Grand Admiral Raeder all the money he wanted to build U-boats, he could have had us on our knees in six months.

He nearly managed it as it was. In'41, he was sinking merchant tonnage far more quickly than it could be replaced. It was not until much later that Bletchley Park gave the Navy the vital edge over the U-boat.

That this nation, whose very survival may depend on keeping our sea lanes open (and has actually done so twice in the last 100 years), should leave itself almost defenceless in this respect, beggars belief.

As for the Neptunes, I'm slightly confused. I was at Leeming from 6/67 to 12/72. During that time, it first seemed to me that the skies over the Vale of York must have been crawling with Neptunes (four squadrons of them plus an OCU) from Topcliffe.

But then I never saw a Neptune, we never heard of them (and I'm not sure I knew they even existed). And my memory of Topcliffe is of some sort of Flying School for signallers or flight engineers, with Varsities flown by staff pilots (which I roundly cursed many a time as they came over our Thirsk house, max boost and revs after take-off) when I was just trying to get some sleep after a night watch at Leeming).

After some ferreting about, I learn that they were there '53 to '57. Would that be about right ? At that time ('55 -'57), I'd be in Strubby (Lincolnshire) well away from them.

It's nice to know that their time in Topcliffe is still remembered in an annual Memorial Service (but even if I were still in Thirsk, I'd still be unable to attend).

Geoff Finding certainly rings a bell, but I cannot put a face to the name. Think he was on the other Flight of 20 Squadron...D.

MPN11,

Case of "you pays your penny, you takes your choice !", I think. When your "glass ceiling" is Flt.Lt., all that remains to interest you is your surroundings. When I was "ploughed" by CMB, my options were Fighter Control and ATC. I knew what Fighter Control meant - "down the hole" and a troglodyte life for the next 18 years. :( Up in a Tower, I would see blue skies, white clouds and (yes) pointy noses. For an old pilot, a no-brainer ! :ok:

Whereas, you, with a (richly deserved - particularly after the shabby way in which the Navy had treated you) full Career ahead, the Area Radar route was the obvious way to go....D.

Goodnight to you both, Danny.

Ian Burgess-Barber

12th Jul 2014, 13:11

Geoff's final months with 229 Group Comm Flight were uneventful. I see no engine failures or forced landings in his log, and all his passengers got to where they were going. His last passenger-carrying trip in the Argus came in April '45, also his promotion to W/O, and no more Proctors appear in his log either, thereafter all his working flights were in the Expediters. When not working he would take “their” Harvard up on local flights (Aeros I expect).

The 'A' Bombs were dropped in August which would change everything, but the Comm Flight remained a very busy unit throughout Aug./Sept. Can anyone tell me what was at Nawai, Rajasthan at that time? Geoff flew 9 trips to that place in the space of 4 weeks and I cannot see what was there at all. His Commission P/O took effect from 25th August '45. Geoff flew his last trip for the Comm Flight on Sept 7th '45 (it was also the last time he would fly an Expediter) 'tho he would not have known that.
He does not fly again until Sept 20th when his log shows him as 2nd pilot on one of the dreaded C-87s (see Ernie K Gann's “Fate is the Hunter” for the low-down on that machine). His log book summary for Sept. shows that he is now with 232 Squadron (also based at Palam) and his first trip with them, on 20th Sept, is to faraway Rathalana (Ceylon) 7.50 in the air. The next entry in his log is not until six weeks later when he 2nd pilots C-87 (no.617) back to the ranch at Palam 7.45. What they were doing in Ceylon for those six weeks I know not, but as Danny has told us, once the war was suddenly over, all sorts of chaos ensued.

Ten days later his log shows that he boards Avro York no.185 as 2nd pilot and departs Palam for the last time, they nightstop in Mauripur. Nov. 11th they fly to Shaibah (Iraq) and then on to Almaza (Cairo). Nov. 12th on to Luqa (Malta) and then on Nov. 13 1945 from Malta to Holmsley South (New Forest) and Geoff was home - never to see India again.

232 Squadron disbanded at Poona, August 1946.

Ian BB

Danny42C

12th Jul 2014, 17:59

Ian BB,

Very interesting ! I never heard of a C-87 before. Of course we knew that Liberators had been roughly converted into makeshift transports to carry VIPs to distant shores (Churchill to Yalta ?), and the unfortunate General Sikorski of Poland had a B-24 which dived straight into the sea on a night take-off from Gibraltar in 1943. But I didn't know that there was a full-scale attempt to produce an official pax/goods transport out of the things. (I hereby create a new abbreviation: YLSNED [You Learn Something New Every Day] to add to our Lexicon). From what I now read, Churchill might've been safer in a good old battleship !

Your "Rathalana" was, of course: "Ratmalana". (Never got to Ceylon myself). "Nawai" ? - No idea ! Tried Google, got:

<Nawai Narai (pass) - Pakistan
pk.geoview.info/nawai_narai,1426345‎Cached
Nawai Narai is a pass and is located in Federally Administered Tribal Areas, (ie, "Injun Country") * Pakistan. ... pictures near Nawai Narai ... abandoned airfield, Razmak Airfield.>

* "There is rock to the left, and rock to the right, and low lean thorn between,
"And ye may hear a breech-bolt snick where never a man is seen." (Kipling: "The Ballad of East and West")

Followed up, got:

<Razmak Airfield, Pakistan - iTouchMap
itouchmap.com/?c=pk&UF=6276984&UN=6319781&DG...‎Cached
Maps, photos, and points of interst for Razmak Airfield, Pakistan - Spot Feature - Abandoned airfield>

Danny.

Ian Burgess-Barber

12th Jul 2014, 19:33

Danny

You are quite right, Ratmalana not Rathmalana (I misread the m for an h and then added an m to confuse myself even further), his log book was hand written, no laptops in those days! The Nawai I am curious about is, according to his logs approx 1 hour flying time in the Expediter from Palam. I think it is LAT 26.35 N 75.92 E ALT 1007 ft 28 nm south(ish) of Jaipur. It's all water under the bridge at this distance, but I was curious about 9 return trips to this spot within 1 month!
Winnie would have been a lot safer in a battleship, the C-87 was an abortion that lived, (unlike it's progenitor the B-24, the most produced heavy bomber A/C of WW2), just Wiki for the story.

'Best
Ian BB

Flash2001

12th Jul 2014, 20:57

See also E.K. Gann. "The C87 wouldn't carry enough ice to chill a highball."

He also wrote a complete book about one that landed on a lake in northern Quebec.

After an excellent landing etc...

Ian Burgess-Barber

12th Jul 2014, 21:15

Hi Flash

No pilot, in my eyes, is complete, unless he has read and absorbed the hard-earned wisdom of the times of the pioneers of transport aviation ie: Ernie Gann. The book you refer to is "Island in the Sky".

Ian BB

Ormeside28

13th Jul 2014, 14:28

The detachment at Ballykelly took all the Squadron aeroplanes. During this detachment Ballykelly ran out of our fuel, 115/145 octane and Shannon couldn't supply. I had to fly the Neptunes back to Topcliffe to refuel and make sure that we had enough for the exercises.
We had an exercise for two weeks operating out of Orlandt at the entrance to Trondheim Fjord. We were operating with HMS Jamaice and Henry attendent destroyers, Daring class, new at that time, now just replaced with the new and much larger Darings. We operated in the north of Norway, checked out Bardufoss in case we ever had to use it, and saw the remains of Tirpitz in the breakers yard at Tromso. We were warned at Orlandet not to run off the runway as we would be up to the wing in an hour and disappear overnight. There were reputed Condors, which used the airfield in the war, underground!!
The only time I lost an engine in anger was on a weather ship trip. I spoke to another Neptune and said that if I couldn't maintain height below a thousand feet I would blow the tip tanks Which I did and managed to get into Ballykelly on one. At Bk the railway runs across the runway and the train has priority. Not this time and the train was emergency stopped!! The engineers last job before entering the aircraft was to take the pins out of the flange holding the tip tanks on to the wing and show the captain, luckily he had done so.
We had a very good "air trafficker" at Topcliffe. We didn't have proper GCA, but a modified one which we knew as the ARAA, and he was an expert. I was never diverted by weather
Most aircrew officers had a secondary duty and because for several months at Valley I had been in the Mountain Rescue Team, I was give:n that job. There was a very experienced Flight Sergeant in charge so he ran it. I went out a lot with them at weekends when not otherwise involved. Our area was from Jedburgh to Mottram and included the Lake District, Pennines and North Yorks Moors.
We had a Varsity on the Station Flight which was used as a hack, so I managed to get checked out on that.
In August 1956 No 203 Squadron was disbanded. Some were posted to Kinloss to convert to The Shackleton. My wife was pregnant with our first child and the Group Captain arranged with the C.O. Of No 120 Squadron at Aldergrove for me to be converted to the Shackleton on the Squadron, so it was goodbye to Topcliffe and Hello Aldergrove.

harrym

13th Jul 2014, 17:19

Hello again Danny & friends:- Following on from departure from 1333 TSCU Leicester East shortly after VE Day, this is my last reminiscence of the long drag from grading school, through the wings stage to the point where one was considered (hopefully) ready for posting to an operational squadron.

Passing through Oxford, my long-suffering mother was on the platform to hand over a .22 rifle I hoped to use against New Forest bunnies. During the stop a couple of coaches holding many companions who had been with us since Wymeswold days were drawn away for eventual attachment to the Fairford branch line train, their ultimate destinations airfields such as Fairford itself, Broadwell, Blakehill Farm or Down Ampney, (the latter three now long since reverted to agriculture, and the branch itself vanished). For us, onwards to Southampton where railway officials attempted to eject us, saying the train did not stop at Brockenhurst (junction for Ringwood, our final destination); but the officer i/c our party stood firm, pointing to the routing label on our coach and demanding that it proceed accordingly. In the end the platform inspector went to consult higher authority by telephone, but it was no good - we were now on Southern Railway territory, and the Southern apparently operated to different rules - so perforce we had to pile out and continue the short distance to Brockenhurst by the next train. Here awaited what appeared to be a mobile museum exhibit, a collection of ancient, flat-roofed non-corridor stock headed by a quaint little loco that in later years might almost have qualified as a companion for Thomas the Tank Engine.

However we had already noticed the attractive New Forest scenery during the run from Southampton, its spring greenery becoming even more fetching as we trundled slowly westward towards the then unspoilt and pleasant little town of Ringwood. Ibsley itself lay a few miles north, just off the Salisbury-Bournemouth road, and proved to be a thoroughly delightful, bucolic little airfield whose ambience was further improved by a distinct lack of the "bull" normally associated with larger establishments; indeed we soon found that, provided one appeared for flying when required, it mattered not what we did or did not do in our own time, of which commodity there was no shortage. Numerous hoardings beside the railway track had already informed us that this was the "Strong Country", so we were not slow to avail ourselves of this and other firms' tasty products on offer in the surrounding alehouses.

Situated in a gaggle of ramshackle huts on the edge of the New Forest, no.1 Glider Pick-up Flight's HQ at RAF Ibsley offered a few scruffy offices plus a small lecture room where we would learn the rudiments of what awaited us. Despite previous vandalisation of the HQ notice board outside, where some anonymous wag had painted a crude "O" in front of "GPU", there was no hint of coercion and we enjoyed the relaxed atmosphere and friendly attitude of the instructing staff who plainly regarded us as near-equals rather than students. Although small-scale glider towing still survives at gliding clubs today, large gliders as such have now ceased to exist; indeed, the very idea of grabbing them off the ground with the aid of a hook dangled from a moving aeroplane would no doubt be condemned as highly dangerous and illegal to boot. Yet, done properly with the correct procedures & equipment, it proved to be both enjoyable and reasonably safe.

A large winch carrying steel cable (approx 3/8” x-section), electrically powered and fitted with an automatic brake, was securely fitted inside the Dakota’s main cabin, the cable ducted to a wooden arm about ten feet in length hinge-mounted just outside and below the main door. In flight, this arm normally lay flush with the aircraft fuselage, but was lowered to an angle of about 700 when pick-up was imminent. Sliding in a track on this arm was a large hook attached to the cable, said hook retained by a spring catch at the arm's end. On the ground, a large loop of nylon rope was suspended between two "goal posts" about ten feet apart and the same height, with a further length of rope attached to the loop's bottom half at ground level via a sliding eye; the far end of this length being attached to the glider sitting to the left and in rear of said posts. There was a "weak link" at this end, very necessary as we shall see even though the glider provided was the Hadrian, an American product somewhat smaller and lighter than the Horsa which we had just finished hauling around the Midlands countryside - but the latter would have been too heavy for the Dak's capability in the snatch role.

Having identified the pick-up site and ascertained surface data by radio (i.e. glider weight, soil firm or soggy, grass long, short, or wet, surface wind etc etc), a wide circuit was flown while the winch crew set their gear accordingly, the most important item being pre-setting of the automatic brake controlling cable payout following engagement of the hook. Turning on a long, shallow final approach, flap was lowered to about 10 degrees, propeller rpm set near maximum and manifold pressure adjusted to about 18-20 inches so as to give a descent rate of about 400 fpm with the certainty of instant engine response being available at the moment of engagement; the aim being to pass over and slightly rightwards of the goalposts at a height of about twenty feet. Now came the critical part: as the posts were about to disappear out of one's line of vision, the control spectacle was moved smartly back and simultaneously the throttles advanced rapidly to full power, producing a tremendous roar from the momentarily overspeeding propellers along with an initial surge of acceleration. However this rapidly degraded again into deceleration as the glider's weight was taken up, accompanied at the same time by a frightful din, heavy vibration and a strong smell of burning brake lining as the winch (hopefully) brought everything back under control. The initial turmoil over, the pilot's essential task was then to keep the whole ensemble climbing at whatever rate could be achieved; in our case, it was only necessary to stagger up to circuit height and fly downwind, where the glider pilot would cast off and land to prepare for the next snatch.

In practice the success rate was no more than about 60%. Disregarding an occasional case of misjudgment resulting in the port propeller rather than the hook contacting the rope, with more or less spectacular (though never, fortunately, serious) results, the most frequent source of failure was breakage of the weak link immediately after pick-up. This invariably occurred at the moment of greatest strain, before the glider was airborne, and was of course immediately apparent to the tug pilot who then had to rapidly reduce power to a more normal setting; the cause always due to a combination of weight plus excessive drag resulting from poor ground conditions, especially so after rain and/or if the grass was overdue for cutting. Although these conditions were taken into account when setting the winch brake, it was an inexact science and available data not always as reliable as it might have been. For myself, I experienced my share of weak link fractures but can say (hand on heart) that all pick-ups performed by our course were always by the hook and not the prop; which is more than our chief instructor could say, who landed ignominiously one day with about a hundred feet of rope trailing from his port propeller.

Watching from the ground could provide some worthwhile free entertainment, indeed a few locals sometimes turning out to watch. There was usually an air of slight tension among the spectators as the Dakota droned steadily down towards the waiting posts; as they fell away at the moment of contact, the tug roared back into the sky, the rope whipping taut behind it and the glider (hopefully) leaping into the air after only a few yards' run. As they climbed away initially, the distance between the two noticeably increased due both to the winch paying out and the nylon rope's natural hysteresis; however the process was soon reversed, and as the winch slowly motored the cable back in the gap once again narrowed. On the not infrequent occasions that the weak link broke, the nylon rope would lash viciously forwards and then trail along behind the tug while the glider trundled a mere few yards along the ground. At this distance in time, I cannot recall how the nylon rope aft of the hook was dealt with following glider release, but fancy that it was either recovered by hand into the aircraft once the steel cable was fully wound in or just dropped during a second run over the field. The tug pilot was of course provided with a means of dumping the glider in emergency, this taking the form of an explosive-powered cable cutter which mercifully was never used during my stay at Ibsley; nor; if the staff were to be believed, at any other time.

The whole business was a tremendous tribute to the Douglas Co. and Pratt & Whitney, makers respectively of the Dakota and its engines; day after day, many times each day, the long-suffering motors were subjected to this punishing ordeal of being slammed from near idle to full power, yet never once did they falter or object in any way. This earned our profound gratitude, for even with provision of the aforesaid cable-cutter any engine failure at the critical moment would quite probably have proved fatal; at an undesirably low speed, and very close to the deck with full power on one side and a suddenly windmilling, powerless propeller on the other, there could well have been only one possible consequence.

Deciding that I ought to savour this unique business from the glider's point of view, one sunny morning I walked over to the pick-up site where a Hadrian was waiting ready by the goal posts, its army pilot lying on the grass and nonchalantly smoking a fag while the Dakota rumbled its way downwind. Obtaining his slightly surprised OK to my request, I watched it turn crosswind, line up on final approach, lower flap and commence the run-in; still he puffed away, making no move to board. The Dak's steady drone became audibly louder, and now the lowered arm with its hook was clearly visible; uneasily eyeing it and then the glider, I attempted a time & distance calculation based on the probability of us perhaps not quite making it - surely we must move soon, or was it already too late? At last, when I had already resigned myself to seeing a pilotless glider whipped into flight before our very eyes, he stretched languidly upright, chucked away his half-smoked cigarette, and strolled slowly towards the Hadrian's door followed so closely by yours truly that we must have looked like a comedy turn - for had I not kept in step, I would assuredly have tripped him up. Once inside, with the now urgent din of engines increasing by the second, all pretence of dignity was abandoned as I scrambled into the copilot's seat and felt fruitlessly for a safety belt that maliciously eluded my panic-stricken fumbling; finally, abandoning all hope of locating it a split second before the Dak roared deafeningly overhead, I grabbed a frame member with both hands and prayed hard.

Coincident with an intense but momentary impression of the glider standing on its nose, an enormously powerful acceleration whipped my head backwards as we positively leaped into the air as if fired from a gun. Ahead, a white rope extended from the attachment point just above us towards a distant and still receding Dakota, while the ASI had apparently jumped instantaneously from zero to over 100 mph; meanwhile my hat, hurriedly placed on a ledge by the seat, had vanished without trace. Suddenly speed was falling again after the nylon rope reacted to its initial stretch and, having temporarily closed the gap, dangled ominously in front; but this was only for a second or two, and as we once more felt the pull of the tug I was able to enjoy this brief period of almost silent, vibration-free flight while the winch slowly drew us back in. This was still in progress halfway along the downwind leg when, to my surprise, the pilot pulled the release knob. There was little effect initially, for speed hardly decayed at all and we continued for a while with minimal loss of height; for as against the Horsa's brick-like qualities, quite evidently the Hadrian was a true glider.

Gravity continued to have only a small effect, and we drifted crosswind in near silence onto the final approach without use of flap. Unlike many of the glider pilots at Leicester, those at Ibsley were all highly experienced and this one obviously knew his business off pat. Whispering over the airfield boundary at hedge-clipping height we came to rest at exactly the right spot, the ground party having only to re-attach the rope ready for the next pick-up; a superbly skilled piece of flying, and a perfect end to an enthralling, one-off experience now (so far as I know) totally unavailable anywhere.

All too soon, our short stay at this idyllic little airfield came to an end. Not only had the work been interesting and demanding but plenty of spare time had been available in which to explore, using our bikes on near-empty roads, the delightful local countryside and its welcoming hostelries. My little single-shot rifle had come in handy too, not for attacking the local fauna which had proved adept at avoiding me when thus armed, but for competitions with my crew in potting at old bottles & tin cans on an adjacent gravel pit. Oddly enough, driving by thirty years later I was surprised to notice that this pit and its associated buildings looked totally unchanged, but that is by the way. Dispersing to our various homes on two weeks leave, at the end of it we looked forward to certain posting to the Far East where the war against Japan seemed far from over.

POSTSCRIPT

As a slightly ironic tailpiece, I never dropped supplies or paratroops in anger, nor snatched gliders or even towed them again; so were the weeks at Leicester & Ibsley a complete waste of my time and the taxpayers' money? The answer is, given the benefit of hindsight, yes with a capital "Y", but at the time there was every prospect that some or all of our expensive training would be put to good use. During my short time in Burma prior to VJ day, it was common knowledge that preparations for the re-conquest of Malaya & Singapore were well in hand, with the operation expected to take place in September 1945; and, had this come about, the air transport fleet would have been heavily involved. Requiring a several hundred-mile flight from Rangoon down the coasts of Burma and Malaya, quite possibly with gliders in tow, this would have been no picnic during the monsoon's tail end. The return distance was close to the Dakota’s max range, so (reputedly) the plan was to have been for the invading forces, having previously been delivered by us to battle via parachute (or glider, maybe), to capture and prepare airfields on which we would (hopefully) land. How true this was I can't say, but none of us were sorry when the Hiroshima & Nagasaki bombs finally forced the Japs to see sense!

The pick-up concept had been devised as a method of recovering gliders for re-use, without going to the bother or expense of providing landing strips for normal towed takeoffs. However, in the event it was seldom used for real; not only were most gliders damaged beyond feasible repair as the result of their inevitable semi-crash arrivals, actual operations using them were relatively few and so it was simply not worth the risk or trouble of attempting to recover them.

Flash2001

13th Jul 2014, 17:46

If the story of an indirect path to a RCAF pilot' brevet might be permitted, here goes...

My uncle graduated from university during the depression when there weren't many jobs available. The RCAF, however, had just announced a direct officer entry program for recent university graduates. He applied and was accepted. Shortly after war was declared he was a Squadron Leader in the supply branch and he applied for pilot training. The powers that be found that he had a minor eyesight defect and said "No, you can't see well enough." Later in the war the RCAF did what services always do when they run short of cannon fodder and lowered the bar. He met the new vision requirements. He applied for flight training once more and was told "NO, you're too valuable where you are." He then took a couple of weeks leave and got himself a PPL (A major no-no). He returned to work and said "Now you have to consider me." They did but they busted him down to Provisional Pilot Officer and taught him to fly all over again. He flew a tour in 6 group, was awarded the DSO and rose to WingCo. After the war, of course, he reverted to F/L. He continued to fly and rose again to WingCo but the powers that be wouldn't let him in a jet. He then retired without pension or much else from the RCAF.

After an excellent landing etc...

Danny42C

14th Jul 2014, 01:10

Ormeside,

Bit puzzled about your "ARAA" Radar at Topcliffe - only thing I can think of would be an ACR7 (-C or -D), which could do quite a decent PPI (step-down or continuous descent) - but no glide-path. Does that ring a bell ?....D.

harrym,

No sooner have I invented my new acronym then YLSNED comes into play! Hysteresis ? Never 'eard of it ! Good old Google to the rescue, strikes me that many of the people I've known in the RAF have shown its effects.

Now terror is piled on terror. In the first instance, all gliding is fundamentally unsafe. For: "What goeth up, must yet Descend/And each Flight cometh to an End". You've little choice as to where, and in what circumstances - gravity will decide that for you. Even getting into the air is not without its hazards. You're dragged up by a tug flown some stranger, on a long piece of string (which may bust) or a winch (ditto), into the Wide Blue Yonder and cast adrift without compunction.

And now you tell me that you're actually snatched off the ground ! (by a method akin to the system then used on the railways to grab mailbags without stopping). I remember that, in the Good Old Days, that messages from an army in the field were enclosed in a leather pouch and strung on a sort of washing line held stretched ten feet above ground between two poles.

Then a Wapiti (or something of that ilk) would come along with a version of your hook and do the necessary. I believe the reply came back from HQ with a big lead weight in the pouch (so it wouldn't drift far in the wind when chucked over the side of the aircraft). (This must have made the eyes of some poor squaddie water a bit if he chanced to be on the wrong spot).

Each to his own - I'd sooner have an engine !....D.

Flash2001,

Your: "After the war, of course, he reverted to F/L. He continued to fly and rose again to WingCo but the powers that be wouldn't let him in a jet. He then retired without pension or much else from the RCAF".

This sounds rather hard. Of course, we "hostilities only" people could not expect our wartime service to count for RAF pension purposes (had I returned to, and remained in the Civil Service, it would have counted for that pension). But I think that in the your uncle's case, he must have entered the RCAF pre-war on some kind of regular Commission; surely his service would have continued unbroken through the war, and for a long time afterwards.

Because you don't get from Flt.Lt. back to W/Cdr overnight in peacetime service. I'm not sure what the RAF minimum for a pension was then, but think 16 years (if less, but with 10 years in, you'd get a substantial gratuity). If your uncle had made S/Ldr by '39, he must have had considerable pre-war service. All in all, he must have done 20 years or more, and surely would be entitled to a RCAF pension.

The explanation is almost certain to be a break in service after the war - for then the "clock" is reset to zero: you start again on a new "contract", and your eligibility for pension will be based on that....D.

Goodnight, all. Danny.

PS: I'm rather surprised that no one has drawn attention to a small item in Saturday's D.T. Seems that in August 2010, an unfortunate Chris Wilson was flying something over the Congo with 18 pax - and a crocodile (don't ask me why). The animal was insufficently secured, broke free and was marching up the aisle. :eek: The Flight Attendant bolted forward to the safety of the Flight Deck, with a stampede of pax behind her.

The trim shift caused the aircraft to enter a dive from which it did not recover. There was only one survivor, who told the story (and possibly the crocodile: there is supposed to be a video of the creature being removed from the wreckage, alive or dead I know not).

Moral, all you transport Captains: do not agree to carry Crocodiles. := (It reminds me of all the horror stories I heard in India of people flying along and finding a snake in the cockpit.... well, what would you do ?)....D.

Cheers, everybody, Danny.

kookabat

14th Jul 2014, 01:33

Wow Harry,
That's a very readable description of a jaw-droppingly amazing activity - they'd never let anyone do that these days. What an experience. Thanks for sharing.
Adam

HighTow

14th Jul 2014, 13:33

Harry,

I don't suppose you ever crossed paths with a chap called Leslie Kershaw during your time doing snatches? Post-war he too was training on doing pick-ups in the Hadrian and he said it was only a small group of people who were ever trained on it.

Second and somewhat unrelated question. Post war it appears that some Horsa's had their upper surfaces painted silver in the UK? Seems to have been common at the Parachute Training School and a few machines of the 1333 TSCU. I just wondered if you had any recollection?

I believe it was done to machines that may ultimately of ended up in the middle east and the theory was the silver top coat reflected the sun and kept the interior cooler.

Flash2001

14th Jul 2014, 14:18

Danny

My recollection is that there was no discontinuity in his RCAF service. I am not so sure about dates of promotion and degrees of demotion though, except for the reversion to PPO which was well documented in local newspapers. As senility gradually took hold he became obsessive about setting down the details of his service. I therefore have a huge pile of redundant paper to plough through. If I learn more, I'll post on this forum.

Flash

Chugalug2

14th Jul 2014, 17:09

Danny, the story of the Thirsk railway accident and of Leeming's part in alerting the Emergency Services of it reminds us of the many ways in which HM Forces have aided the Civil Power in many more ways than the usual use of that phrase suggests. With ever shrinking numbers I fear that the scope for such assistance must correspondingly shrink likewise.

Flash 2001, your uncle certainly kept his tailor busy, subtracting and adding stripes ad infinitum! As Danny says it seems unusual even for the ups and downs of wartime service. I bow to his interpretation of what may have happened but await your unearthing more facts. Most here will empathise with him though, once the desire to fly is there, nothing else matters much.

harrym. Well, you promised and you certainly came through with a description of a unique procedure that is now scarcely known of. I rather suspect that your Army pilot was acting out a role garnered from Hollywood, including the ditching of the cigarette prior to action. If he'd tripped or you stumbled into him the subsequent scene might not have gone with such precision or predictability. Well done you though for trying out the customer experience. Personally those who I dropped, or who I dropped to, were welcome to my service, but I had no desire to join them in their work. :)

As to it not being on offer these days, well no, but surely a variation of would be a great attraction at a Theme Park. Perhaps if the whole affair ran on rails...?

Ormeside28

15th Jul 2014, 13:44

Danny. Ypu must be right about our "GCA, type at Topcliffe, but it worked for us and always got us down.
Harrym. We enjoyed our Horsa/Dakota flying at Leicester East in 1945. It was never suggested that the Horsa could be "snatched". I could imagine the cockpit being torn off with the pilots and leaving the rest of the fuselage and wings behind. No thanks. My embarkation leave for the Far East Gliders ( Hadrians I suppose ) was thankfully ended by the Bomb.
Opioids
Now at Aldergrove in September 1956. Nutts Corner was the civilian airport for Belfast, Aldergrove only R.A.F. We had No 120 Squadron with Shackletons Mk 1, No 202 Meteorological Squadron with Hastings, County of Ulster Squadron Auxiliary Air Force with their Vampires and a Maintenance Unit with various strange aircraft including a Supermarine Swift. Aldergrove was the only stationing my service when, as Station Duty Officer, I had an armed guard when inspecting at nightConversion to the Shackleton was a one to one with the various leaders and my flying conversion was with Stan Boutell , sadly to be lost with that crew in the South China Sea just two years later.
Soon after conversion the Suez War started and we were engaged in trooping with thirty soldiers sitting on the floor behind the main spar . We did manage to get them home to Lyneham in time for Christmas after the shambles of Suez. A trip to the Elsan was quite a struggle!
In the New Year I was given a Captaincy and conversion to the Mark 2.

harrym

15th Jul 2014, 17:09

Gentlemen – your kind comments deserve responses, so here goes:-

Danny: The sad affair of the crocodile reminds me that, shortly after arrival on 194 Sqdn, I was regaled with the story of a krait (a small but highly venomous serpent) that emerged from behind the instrument panel during flight, being duly despatched by an alert copilot's kukri. As I heard this from several sources, I think it can be relied on as truth.

A twist on the snatch story is that I believe an attempt was made to develop a means of grabbing human beings, to be hooked up by passing aircraft. I think it was a US project, probably dreamt up by the CIA as a means of getting agents back to base in a hurry, but whether or not ever used in anger I can't say. Can anyone out there provide further enlightenment?

High Tow: No I don't recall a Kershaw, and have no record of such a name in my log book but then the RAF was a big place back in '45. As for silver-topped Horsas, there were certainly none at Leicester during my stay – wonder what the purpose was, but I think your suggestion is probably correct.

Your pseudonym suggest you were a glider pilot yourself – if so, more details pse!

Chugalug: Ref my ride in a snatched Hadrian, I concur that the army pilot was without doubt acting in the spirit of inter-service one-upmanship, and certainly cut things very fine indeed – but he timed it so perfectly, I think he must have tried it out before. Inter-service rivalry manifests itself in various ways, as I found out years later when I was the victim of an attempted stitch-up by the Senior Service – fortunately unsuccessful!

From the dates you quote, you must have been at Leicester not long after me.

Flash2001

15th Jul 2014, 17:22

The only discontinuity I can think of in my uncle's service might be in the reversion from SQ/L to PPO. As far as I know a PPO didn't have a commission and he most certainly did beforehand.

After an excellent landing etc...

Molemot

15th Jul 2014, 17:32

I found this....

Glider Snatching - British Pathé (http://www.britishpathe.com/video/glider-snatching)

Not forgetting "Skyhook"...

Top Secret Weapons Revealed: Sky Hook : American Heroes Channel (http://www.ahctv.com/tv-shows/top-secret-weapons-revealed/videos/sky-hook.htm)

Hope the sheep made it...(!)

Skyhook was also used operationally to retrieve film from reconnaisance satellites, descending by parachute after re-entry...

mmitch

15th Jul 2014, 17:34

Harrym. The system you refer to is/was the Fulton recovery system used by US combat rescue units. It's a bit complicated and large thread drift but an interesting search at your leisure!
mmitch

Danny42C

15th Jul 2014, 22:26

It was around this time of the year in '69, I think it was mid-afternoon, and it was a very windy day indeed. Normally the JPs always used the main 16/34 (7500 ft) runway, but this south-westerly gale was too much and they moved onto the shorter (4200 ? ft) 04/22 subsidiary. IIRC, the first 200 ft or so was a wartime extension which projected beyond the present taxiway (you may recall a similar arrangement at Thornaby in '54) - but in that case the "stub" was wired-off; this was still available for use, and of course used for landing, but as a take-off involved "back-tracking" out to the end, it was not being used for take-offs that day.

Nevertheless, JP IIIs had been using it all morning without difficulty, taking-off with plenty to spare. Well off to the side, the marshalling point was hard to see from the Tower, so the detail now reported comes entirely from the Runway Controller. I was the Watch Supervisor that afternoon, but as I was in the Approach Room at the time, knew nothing of the accident until it had happened.

It seems that the (solo) pilot had started well enough, the Runway Controller heard nothing unusual in the engine note, and the JP was accelerating slowly, but as it was into the teeth of the gale that was hardly surprising; all the JPs that the R/C had seen taking off since coming on watch that lunchtime had behaved in a similar way.

Coming up to the point where the R/C expected the aircraft to lift-off, the noise suddenly ceased. "Engine Failure", he thought. No problem, the barrier net was up, even if the pilot couldn't stop in time, he would go safely into that.

Then, to his astonishment, full power came on again. The pilot was trying to take-off after all ! But now the aircraft had slowed, there was not enough runway left. In a last, desperate attempt he managed to haul it off in a semi-stalled condition, wet-henned over the net, got it up to (perhaps) fifty feet. Then it stalled, the left wing dropped, it stall-turned and went straight into a field just beyond the airfield boundary. There was no fire.

At the cease of flying, Approach and I went over to the crash site to see if any clues could be gleaned, but it was all too plain. It had gone in vertically: the whole nose and cockpit area was destroyed back to the firewall. It was not survivable, death must have been instant.

A last, pathetic footnote: a small black-and-white cow, which had been grazing very close by, also lay dead. We could see no sign of injury and concluded that the poor beast had died of fright.

So now we knew what had happened. But no one could explain why. The most plausible partial suggestion was that, although his airspeed was building normally, the much slower groundspeed acceleration fooled him into believing that he was losing power. In which case, a decision to abandon take-off was correct (although mistaken).

But that he then made a second attempt to take-off is inexplicable, and must ever remain so (I do not think that the BoI could add much to what was already known). AFAIK, it was the only "fatal" during my time there.

And speculation is always vain when applied to "inexplicable" flying accidents. The recent MH370 case has many points in common with the AF447 four years before: each happened on a long ocean transit, there was no distress call, the aircraft simply disappeared. But, in the AF447 case, the early find of floating wreckage which had certainly come from the aircraft, provided a 'fix' which enabled, by a miracle of undersea salvage, the recovery of both recorders.

The tale they told could never have been guessed by even the wildest imagination. And, in the almost impossible event of the true story of MH370 coming to light, the same will probably be true.

Goodnight, everybody,

Danny42C.

Requiescant in Pace.

Danny42C

16th Jul 2014, 17:20

harrym, (not Chugalug)

I must say that the picture of the "dickey" laying about him with his kukri is an entertaining one ! This interests me personally, recalling (as you may) that I, too, carried a kukri when in full battle array in Burma. And when you come face to face with a krait in the narrow confines of a cockpit, you must do something quick with whatever comes to hand !

And you must score a "confirmed" first time - for there'll never be a second. Another option would be your Smith & Wesson, but you'd better be a very good shot (and in any case there'd be a hole in your aircraft).

After giving this some thought, best idea of all would be to take a pet mongoose with you on every sortie. Rikki-tikki-tavi (being the only animal that can beat a King Cobra to the draw :"Ha, the hooded Death has missed ! Woe to thee, Nag"), would do the business and would snuggle down quite happily, I should think, in your haversack when not on snake duty.

What I really cherish is the thought of the imperturbable Captain maintaining normal navigation while cold steel and bits of snake were flying about next door. :eek:

Danny.

harrym

17th Jul 2014, 17:01

Danny, I'm uncertain as to what stage of flight the reptilean incursion took place, but if at cruising altitude the creature could well have been sluggish due to being below its normal operating temperature - I believe snakes don't function too well when cold, but I stand to be corrected if any zoologists are out there.

Quite a few crew members carried kukris, although I was not one of them. As for pistols, the only time mine was used was in celebration of VJ Day when all six of my issued cartridges were discharged skywards (along with many others!).

Danny42C

17th Jul 2014, 18:36

harrym,

AFAIK, most of the air traffic over India and Burma during WWII was fairly low; 7-8000 ft providing a nice "Hill Station" climate in the cockpit in the hot weather. As there was nothing in India above 12,000 ft (if you keep away from the Himalayas - and there was no reason to go up there), I never heard of anyone using oxygen except, I suppose, the stalwarts who flew "over the Hump" to China.

Whatever zoologists may say, the only good krait is a dead krait IMHO. I had my kukri to cut my way through vegetation in the event of having to walk back. You were short-changed on your .38 ammo issue, I got 18 rounds in a little cardboard box, carted it all round for three years and handed it back untouched.

Blazing away into the sky in a feu-de-joie is all right, but a Bad Idea if up through the basha roof, as it may bring down invertebrates :eek: much better left where they are ! (And I hope you cleaned your pistol afterwards !)

Cheers, Danny

smujsmith

17th Jul 2014, 23:28

Danny,

I well remember as an Aircraft Ground Engineer on the C130 circa 1990 doing a Belize schedule, and, on the morning of departure whilst entering the nose gear bay to remove the nose gear locking pin, was horrified to find some serpentine beast wrapped around the nose leg. Backing out, I alerted the Captain, and as always reverted to "awaiting further orders" mode. Well, long story short, after around four hours, a local expert was found who removed the snake without trouble, luckily we had time within crew duty hours to make Dulles (Washington) for the scheduled nightstop. Somehow, during the rest of my time as a GE, whenever I entered the nose wheel bay, I always did it with a feeling of trepidation. I really can't imagine an "in flight" viper on the loose.

Smudge :ok:

DHfan

18th Jul 2014, 01:12

Totally off topic but a possibly mildly interesting aside - until fairly recently my family were the nervous owners of a kukri.

My maternal grandfather returned from India after WWI armed with one. Apparently he was given it by a Ghurka in admiration or friendship although I didn't hear that directly, sadly by the time I would have been old enough to understand Parkinson's disease had made him pretty much incoherent. Grandma was terrified about having it - with six children in a two up, two down it's hardly surprising as she didn't want one of them to find it.

I didn't know until relatively recently that had been handed over to my parents at the earliest opportunity - which made my mum equally terrified if not more so. Mum's world record class at worrying...

Six or seven years ago Mum asked how she/we were going to get rid of it - I'd completely forgotten about it. I hadn't a clue but suggested the Ghurka museum. With our family's usual lightning reactions, a couple of years later I asked the museum in Winchester if they'd like it. After initially suggesting granddad bought it from a bazaar as a souvenir and a couple of other rebuffs I sent them some photos.

It turns out they've got issued military kukris a-plenty but this was a genuine Nepalese made hill kukri used by soldiers for their private use and they hadn't got one. They have now.

I'd love to know the story of granddad being given it but of course I never will.

Fareastdriver

18th Jul 2014, 08:09

The Ghurkhas were heavily involved during the Indonesian Confrontation. I was once based at a Ghurkha Battalion HQ in the middle of Sabah where dinner was served on the regimental crockery and Tiger beer was consumed in silver goblets.

There was one annual ceremony that I heard about. It would involve the RSM beheading a young bull with one stroke of a five foot kukri and woe betide the regiment if he was not successful.

This required a bull which were in short supply in the sticks so a helicopter was requested. A Navy Wessex was tasked and owing to the obvious dangers of putting it inside it was heavily sedated, strapped into a harness and underslung.

Apparently, it woke up half way there and, seeing the world pass by 1,000 ft. under his hooves, got quite upset. This resulted in his disturbing his aerodynamic qualities markedly resulting in quite violent swinging and twisting.

No; they didn't bin him and send him off to an instant hamburger factory. They hung on to him, a dozen or so Ghurkhas held him down at the other end and that evening he went to the pastures in the skies.

Madbob

18th Jul 2014, 11:54

Danny's sad story......

According to OD's excellent book "Category 5" this accident happened on the 30th September 1969 and involved a solo JP3, XN575, being flown by a student on 3 FTS.

The summary said he was seen to get airborne in a high nose-up attitude and when at the upwind end of the runway at c. 100 feet the left wing dropped and it spun in. The pilot ejected at c. 50 ft but was fatally injured.:(

The cause was put down to over-rotation on take off leading to loss of control.....

Virtually the same happened ten years later when I was a stude at 1FTS at Linton. A Foreign & Commonwealth student (ISTR from Sudan?) over-rotated a JP3 (which was not over-endowed with thrust:}) and the result was that being on the wrong side of the drag curve it didn't accelerate. The result was a crash off the end of the runway. The amazing thing was that the crash crews found no sign of the pilot. When he was eventually found he was in the officers' mess having legged from the scene of his crime totally un-injured. He denied having been even on the flying programme that morning, never mind having signed the F700! Mud on his boots and flying suit rather gave the game away.......

A similar accident happened to a Lockheed T33 (Shooting Star) on take-off from Duxford in the 1980's which nearly ended in tragedy, with a heroic gib (guy in the back - an engineer) rescuing the pilot from the blazing wreckage. So the flight safety lesson is clear - there is always value in reading about other peoples' misfortunes before history repeats itself this time with YOU!

MB

Fareastdriver

18th Jul 2014, 16:14

Absolutely right. I was an avid reader of crash comics, (flight safety magazines) and on at least two occasions I had a similar problem to a previous published incident. Knowing what the cause possibly was and having learnt how to escape from it I survived.

Danny42C

20th Jul 2014, 00:30

What a wonderful example of a PPRuNe Forum at its best ! You start with a Sad story, that brings forth another Sad strory that in turn has relevance to a Strange Story I have "on the stocks" and will presently launch.

And then a passing Press reference to a wayward crocodile leads naturally to a Snake, which leads naturally to a Kukri, which leads......

And all this due to the kindly forbearance of our wise Moderators, who are clearly imbued with the ancient Tao principle of "wu wei", which may be expressed as "masterly inactivity", or "knowing when not to act". And so have allowed this Best of All Threads to flourish as it does.

Back at the Ranch...

smujsmith,

It would have made an interesting entry in the 700, wouldn't it ? You did well to leave the beast alone for the expert to deal with. As for snake battles on the Flight Deck (harrym); at least his chap had a Handling Pilot to fly the thing while the hero dealt with the reptile. I would be doing battle with one hand while attempting to keep S&L with the other !...D.

DHfan,

You may recall what I said about kukris a couple of years ago:

"India has many small-gauge railways to places like Darjeeling, Dehra Dun (not sure), Chakrata - certainly ! While there I was told that the local kukri-smiths found rail steel just the job - it would take a lovely edge. Driver of 8.15 gets a shock when his loco drops on to the sleepers, (a length of line having been lifted during the night !")

Sounds like your Grandfather's kind of specimen - even if it was bought (like mine) from a bazaar. Can't remember what it cost, but it wasn't much.

I'm surprised you had such trouble disposing of yours. As for mine:

"The kukri was a most imposing piece of hardware, with its silver-banded grip, and the kit of two small skinning knives fitted into a silver-mounted scabbard. It came home with me, and on my return I ran into "Bert" Andrews, my pre-war line manager (and an ex-Captain in the RFC, flying Sopwith Camels).He'd climbed two rungs on the Civil Service ladder while I'd been away, and was now an S.E.O. in another Department."

"Before the war, he'd kept me spellbound with tales of his adventures, and when I went into the RAF gave me one of his old RFC tunic buttons for good luck. This has the same crown and eagle as an RAF button but with a "rope" design round the rim. I kept it for long enough, but somewhere it had got lost. Never mind, I'd had all the luck I could reasonably hope for."

"Bert had a teenage son who was an avid collector of exotic swords and knives. I passed the kukri on to him. There wasn't much call for them in Southport then. (Nowadays we'd have the Armed Response Squad round within the hour!)" AFAIK, neither the local Plod nor anyone else bothered about it (ah, the Good Old Days - '46).....D.

Fareastdriver,

The idea of a five-foot kukri makes my blood run cold (the RSM should have been able to cut the bull in half with that, if he got a good swing at it ! - and he would need two hands for the job, as the thing would weigh as much as a Crusader's broadsword). The standard blade would (from memory) be about 15 in long.

The secret of the kukri is in its shape, the blade starts narrow (and mine had a neat little double notch at the top to stop the blood running back and making your grip slippery), then broadens out into a wide curve before coming to the tip. In this way the greater part of the weight is out at the end (like a golf driver).

As the blade is kept sharp enough to shave with, your Gurkha has no trouble in whacking the head off anyone who displeases him with a single blow to the nape of the neck. A Gurkha attack is therefore, swift, silent and very effective as they enjoy their work; they are very good people to have on your side when push turns to shove: a bonus being that the morale of your enemy tends to plummet when they learn who they will shortly be facing.

I was told that, in the old days, a Gurkha youth was not rated as a man until he made his first human kill (and came back with the evidence). They practised on full grown goats (there was no wastage, as the goat would go into the curry. The goat skin might find its way to Europe, where it is made into highly prized, and hideously expensive, pilot's flying jackets).

I would suppose the bull carriage as external cargo would be extemely hazardous. I know the Army routinely carried mules in the Dakotas, and would think a mule quite capable of kicking the side out of the aircraft: only glad it wasn't me up front (Chugalug ? harrym ? Anybody ?).....D.

Madbob,

Here we have a perfect example of the Carlstrom Syndrome in action. I have not the slightest memory of an ejection before the crash, nor does the information from your reference awake the slightest glimmer of recollection. Having said that, I didn't think that JP IIIs had ejection seats - wrong again ! - YLSNED !) But why would the "summary" content itself with simply saying:

"The cause was put down to over-rotation on take off leading to loss of control....." That's perfectly obvious ! What about the take-off abandoned, then suddenly resumed ? That's the crux of the mystery. What does it say about that ?

I didn't dream this - everyone was talking about it for weeks after ! I call in support exmudmover (a QFI there '67-'70), who must remember the accident well.

("According to OD's excellent book "Category 5"), you can help me with a query on my next Post, Madbob, if you will. Btw, I had heard the story of the "missing" casualty before, but never knew it was at Linton.....D.

Goodnight, all. Danny.

Warmtoast

20th Jul 2014, 11:04

Danny

Re your recent comments about snakes.

I was bothered by Puff Adders, but on the ground - see my post #4622 here:
http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/329990-gaining-r-f-pilots-brevet-ww11-232.html#post8178203

harrym

20th Jul 2014, 16:53

Molemot:- Many thanks for your 5965, the Pathé clip brought back many memories - I had forgotten the Verey pistol signal from the ground. As for the bod snatch, words fail - think the first guy was wearing just a leather helmet, no hard hat.

Danny:- No I did not clean that pistol, the war was over and it was no longer needed; the only Japs I encountered after the surrender were more likely to present arms than fire at you!

Danny42C

20th Jul 2014, 17:21

Warmtoast,

Your Bitis arietans looks a nasty piece of work ! Seems it has the same distinction as my krait, that of being the cause of more than any other snake bites in their respective lands.

Wiki says that the krait has the higher untreated mortality rate (70-80%), the Puff Adder >10% (but if it Bitises a bit harder, 52%). But your victim looks to have a harder time before he dies than mine.

Case of "you pays your penny, you takes your choice !", I suppose.

Danny.

Fareastdriver

20th Jul 2014, 17:57

Despite having flown in the tropics for some considerable time I have never knowingly had reptiles in the aircraft. In Australia we picked up some really big mudcrabs that had been stunned by heavy naval gunfire and they woke up half back which kept the rear crew on their toes. As far as the cockpit goes I had this one in Borneo. I have posted this before, twice over five years, so some may be familiar with it.

Borneo mid sixties. Operating with a Whirlwind HC1 (S55 with a jet engine to you Americans) on the border with Indonesia. I was flying solo, no crewman, shuttling Ghurkhas rotating from an FOB called Pensiangan to our main base at Sepulot. Loading was simple: Hold up four fingers when you land and four Ghurkhas run in with their kit. One thumps your leg when they are ready and off you go. They tend to collect things so they would carry other packs apart from their army kit so allowing 220lbs each for a Ghurkha base transfer was about right.

I picked up the last stick, only three of them. They had a lot of stuff but weight wasn’t a problem so off I went. I had just settled in the cruise when this gibbon climbed up through the left hand footwell. He climbed onto the seat and looked at me. Not liking what he saw he turned and started to launch out through the port window. Just as he was going out he looked down and realised that he was a thousand feet above the trees so he grabbed the cyclic and pulled himself back in again. Now both of us were looking UP at the trees.

He was now terrified so he jumped for comfort to the nearest human, i.e.me. In a flash he was wrapped round my shoulders and head and trying to strangle me. I got him off and as I pushed him back to the other side two sets of brown hands poked through the floor to recover him. One hand got hold of a leg but little gibbon wasn’t interested. There are lots of things to grab hold of if you don’t want to go out through the floor. Cyclics, collectives, speed select levers, HP cocks and he was having a go at most of them.

There was nothing I could do. I had clamped the collective so I had a hand free to fend off his attentions to the switches and cocks on the centre console. He wasn’t interested in going down and his keeper couldn’t get him down. The only thing I could do was put it on the ground and sort it out then.

There was a clearing with a sandy river bank ahead that I had used before so I set up the descent. As be passed through two hundred the gibbon started to take an interest in the scenery and fortunately the blokes downstairs did too so things calmed down a bit.

It was quite peaceful until we touched down and then the gibbon shook himself free and bolted through the port window. There was a screech as he passed the jet pipe but then he disappeared on all fours into the trees at ten o’clock. Two nanoseconds later a Ghurkha rocketed after him with his Armalite and disappeared into the same trees. I was now stuck. I couldn’t shut down as in Borneo a river can go from zero to twenty feet of water in five minutes and I didn’t have enough fuel to wait very long. After a minute or so I managed to get the attention of one of the other passengers and got him to climb up the side of the aircraft so I could shout at him.

He didn’t speak English so I pointed in the last known position of his mate and held out my hands in a query fashion. He gave me a thumbs up, spun a finger and pointed upwards. I repeated his sign language and he nodded and gave another thumbs up. With that he climbed back into the cabin and thumped my leg to show that they were ready. Not a lot I could do so I took off and flew to Sepulot.

We were living in the Ghurkha officer’s basher so I collared OC HQ Coy and told him what had happened. I described where I had left him but he wasn’t concerned. “He’ll be back tomorrow,” and he was. Complete with gibbon..

Danny42C

20th Jul 2014, 18:11

harrym,

"... it was no longer needed..." Wouldn't be too sure about that. You never know (up to what age can we go before they can't recall us to the Colours ?)

In the immediate wake of the surrender, it was sometimes touch-and-go whether your Jap's loyalty to his Emperor would override his natural instinct to blow your head off.

I kept my pistol with me right to the bitter end (kraits ?)

Danny.

Danny42C

20th Jul 2014, 19:32

Fareastdriver,

So now we have Gibbons to add to the list (kraits, puff adders and mud-crabs eic) of Things I'd Rather Not Have in the Cockpit/Flight Deck with Me.

I know nothing of Gibbons, but have read that an adult chimpanzee is five times stronger than a man. Supposing that Gibbons to be of similar size and capability, you were lucky to have a young one !

What did your Gurkha want it for ? I would think they had them at home, so it wouldn't be a novelty. Perhaps the Indonesian variety tasted better :*(perish the thought !)

Danny.

Fareastdriver

21st Jul 2014, 08:04

What did your Gurkha want it for

They were kept as pets. The Ibans, who had lived there since whenever, treat monkeys as a food source. It tastes like a mixture of pork and chicken because I had to dine with a headman once as it was preferable to my head being shrunk. The used either blowpipes or shotguns, both equally accurate, to shoot them down from the trees. When they killed a mother they would keep the infant until it was big enough to eat. If the Gurkhas saw one they would buy it off them and look after it.

When the Gurkhas returned to Nepal the monkeys they had would end up at Jesselton, now Kinabalu. Zoo, where they would eventually be returned to the wild. (Probably to be shot again).

Going back to the old Smith & Wesson; I was issued with one in Borneo, probably the same one as yours. With it came the tatty cardboard box with twelve (1947) rounds. I had been in the Rhodesian Army so I was a dab hand with a shooter but we were getting a new batch of pilots who had gone straight through training without seeing a gun. There wasn't a range at our home base so we were allowed to fire six rounds just before we came back from a forward area.

A fuel drum at fifty yards was the target and none of us could hit it, including me. My last round I fired into the air into wind and I could see the shell going. Something had to be done for my personal safety so I decided to use a ploy I had heard about. Using 9mm. ammunition in a .38 revolver.

To overcome the fact that 9mm. used rimless cartridges against the rimmed variety on the .38 the trick was to run a few turns of thin helicopter blade tape in the recess so it would hold it in the chamber when the hammer hit it. Blade tape was easy, 9mm. ammo not so.

I was taking some Intel people from Pensiangan to a border longhouse called Kabu, sit there for an hour or two and then fly them back. During this period I ask the Intel chap of what the chances of getting some 9mm. was. No problem, he would fix it. When I dropped them off I waited until a Gurkha came along and with a thump deposited a box of 1,000 rounds in the back.

I now had too much but the crewmen were issued with Sterling sub-machine guns that used 9mm. so I was handing out 50 round boxes like Santa Claus. They all had to unload their RAF ammo if they wanted to shoot because if they handed back magazines with shiny rounds in the armourers would know that they had fired the stuff that they had purloined off Montgomery. I then taped up fifty rounds and next day we went down to the fuel drum.

The bullets are about the same size though the 9 mm. case is a looser fit in the chamber. They needed a bit of a push to compress the tape so that the rear face was flush. Just one round; up with the gun, both hands, and fire.

BANG-Berdoing, Fantastic!

A bigger kick because there was more powder but the gun didn't throw at all. I opened the chamber and because it had no rim for the extractor I poked it out with a screwdriver. The chamber looked fine, and a look down the barrel confirmed that was fine too. My crewman then returned from behind a tree.

I loaded up six and off I went; Bang-Berdoing X 6.

Nobody else was interested in doing it for their pistols; something to do with Elfin Safly. I carried the same pistol around for a further six months and must have sent a couple of hundred rounds though it with no problem. It was a bit of a bind wrapping them and then poking them out but in the end I could hit the drum at a hundred yards which is about the maximum range you are ever going to get in the jungle so I felt a lot more secure.

Danny42C

21st Jul 2014, 16:01

Fareastdriver,

Nice to know that the Gurkhas had only kind intentions towards their booty from Indonesia, and glad they would be going to a good home, but it is always dicey returning a pet animal to the wild.

I admire your ingenuity with the cartridge-conversions - yes, a Prophet is never honoured in his own country ! I solved my camp-bed problem in Burma with my air-transportable Charpoy, but AFAIK no one else took up the idea, though it was simple and easy (you just can't help some people, can you ?) I once took up the slack in a worn throttle spindle with a bit of kitchen foil wrapped round. Worked well for quite a while.

A 44 gal drum at 100 yards is good indeed. (I don't think a .38 would carry 100yds). We were told that the only way to be sure of a result was to stick the muzzle into your chap's guts and fire.

Happy Days. Danny.

MPN11

21st Jul 2014, 19:26

Ah, the S&W 38-200. Yes, I've watched the black streak as the bullet makes its way down-range.

These 2 examples were once the property of a very dear Arm Eng officer of my close acquaintance. The top one stopped working when, after reloading, the 8th round jammed the workings completely by preventing the cylinder rotating.

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/SampW38-200.jpg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/SampW38-200.jpg.html)

Fareastdriver

21st Jul 2014, 20:15

One of our pilots shot himself in the foot. He fired the first round and not seeing any effect fired the second. This pushed the first round out of the muzzle and it dropped onto his foot.

Danny42C

22nd Jul 2014, 20:33

MPN11,

I can just see the tip of a bullet coyly peeping out in the upper picture. Surely your armourers could've put the thing in a vice, put some padding round the breech, and given the ramrod a good whack with a hammer. After all, what could they lose ? :ooh: - it's no good as it is ! ( I'm just popping out for a minute while you do that).

Remember Mrs Pike and the 4x2 rag stuck in the rifle in that glorious "Dad's Army" scene ?

"....the 8th round..." ? I was fobbed off with only six chambers in mine (this is a serious question: I suppose you can, in principle, have as many as you like)...D.

Fareastdriver,

Did No.2 give up the struggle after pushing No.1 out, so No.3 would have to push No.2 out, and so.......ad infinitum - or until you ran out of ammo ?...D.

Cheers, Danny.

P.S. Stand by for #6,000 coming up. :ok: Only seems the other day we had #5,000 ! D.

EDIT:

Purely for interest, I looked up the dates of the 1,000 "mileposts":....

Start 5.6.8.
1k 1.8.9. = 14 months
2k 11.9.10. = 13
3k 2.9.12. = 24
4k 6.7.13. = 10
5k 11.1.14. = 6
6k 8.14. = 7
(To reach 3k = 51 mos. From 3k to 6k = 23 mos)....D.

OffshoreSLF

22nd Jul 2014, 22:02

MPN11
Must have been a fairly common occurrence. I remember a similar incident on the Barry Buddon ranges near Dundee, when one of my friends managed to get 5 stuck in the barrel.

I was RNR at the time, and we used to shoot .38 pistol on Saturday afternoons, and .303 rifle on Sundays.

MPN11

23rd Jul 2014, 07:32

Clearly not an uncommon occurrence, but it's nice to have the photographic evidence! And my thanks to Stan's widow for letting me have the original items.

Danny42C - for clarity I should have noted that after firing all 6 rounds in the cylinder to no effect, the user then reloaded with a further 6 and carried on .. but only 2 of those got to go 'bang' ;)

Danny42C

23rd Jul 2014, 17:46

Many old RAF Stations have resident Ghosts: some well known like the Middleton Ghost in the St.George Hotel (former Officers' Mess) at Teeside Airport, others less so. Our Ghost at Leeming was in the latter category.

The story was current when I arrived there in Summer '67, and our Ghost continued to put in appearances, at irregular intervals, all the time (but progressively less frequently) until I left at the end of '72. Any information from the readership about subsequent sightings would be welcome on this Thread.

There was no internet or Google to refer to in those days, and we are solely dependent on oral testimony . The story, as I heard it, runs as follows: Some time after the war, there was a training accident at Leeming. The aircraft was supposed to be one of the Beaufighter family (Buckmaster, as I recall). Pilot and Nav were killed. (No other details).

One late afternoon in the early days of the JP era, the aircraft were being put away in No.1 Hangar at close of play. It was dusk, but far from dark. An airman busy about his duties passed a figure sitting nonchalently on the wing of one of the parked JPs. It was wearing the flying overalls of the time. "Have you seen Flt.Lt. So-and-so ?" asked the figure. "No, sir", answered the airman (not knowing - or much caring - who Flt.Lt. So-and-so might be). He took a step or two more, then curiousity impelled him to look back. The figure had vanished.

He looked swiftly round the hangar. The light was quite enough to see by. But he was quite alone there. He later recalled that he felt in no way alarmed, only puzzled by the strange occurrence. He decided to keep quiet about it (he wouldn't be believed, in any case, and it would only attract mockery).

But in the following weeks, at irregular intervals, other airmen had similar experiences and the story came to light. The tales had many features in common. The apparition was always in, or close around, No.1 Hangar. It only appeared about the same time of day - late afternoon to early evening. The question was always the same. He was always in flying kit. He only appeared to one man at a time, even though others might be quite close, they saw and heard nothing.

He was by no means a fightening or menacing Ghost, quite the opposite. He seemed affable, but with an anxious, distracted air, as if his thoughts were far elsewhere. Soon there was a renewed interest in the affair after a sudden variation of the pattern one winter evening. A crew bus was travelling through the wide space between 2 and 3 Hangars, again about the end of the flying day. The driver was moving about 20 mph towards 2 Hangar, when a figure appeared right in front of his bus. He braked hard, but the figure vanished under the front wheels. He felt no bump.

He stopped and jumped out to see whom he'd run over, but there was nobody there. Plenty of people had been passing by off work, and some had been attracted by the scream of brakes. But none of them had seen the stranger, either before or after the supposed "impact". The driver got back and drove on, bewildered.

Of course, from time to time, "ghost-busting" groups of two or three set out, pot-valiant, from the Messes and NAAFI after dinner to confront this "ghost". But when they walked away from the bright lights, through the gloomy technical sections of the camp, to the now deserted, unlit black hangars standing like huge, menacing cathedrals in the darkness, their courage failed. There had been loose talk about drawing the hangar side door keys to have a scout round inside, but now that didn't seem a good idea at all. They turned tail and walked back. And that's about it.

****************

I've been rummaging about a bit. It seems that No. 228 OCU operated from Leemimg '47-'61:

<RAF 228 OCU Losses & Ejections - Ejection History>
www.ejection-history.org.uk/...228_OCU/SQUADRON_228ocu.htm (http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/...228_OCU/SQUADRON_228ocu.htm)

<16th January 1951

RAF Brigand B1 RH770 228 OCU struck a tree near Timworth Suffolk./ Pilot Flying Officer P F Keeling. /Other crew abondoned (sic) the aircraft safely>

That is the only reference I can find that has a possible connection with the detail in the "legend". And it does not specify that F/O Keeling was killed (although that is implied). And there would be a third man in a normal Brigand crew. Nevertheless "Brigand" was such a "near miss" for "Buckmaster", that the part-coinicidence is striking. Perhaps Keeling (the pilot) was killed, and it is he who, like Captain Hendrik Van der Decken ("The Flying Dutchman") is fated to stay near Leeming No.1 Hangar, waiting for his Nav (?) for all eternity ! Trust a Nav not to be able to find his Captain ! (Only joking, some of my best friends have been Navs).

Another search led to:

<phantom aircraft, ghostly airmen, and other spirits of aviation> www.paranormaldatabase.com/aviation/pages/avdata.php?...2 (http://www.paranormaldatabase.com/aviation/pages/avdata.php?...2)...

<CrewLocation: Leeming - Former Airfield.....(???)
Type: Haunting Manifestation
Date / Time: 1950s onwards
Further Comments: The crew from a bomber have been seen walking together here, and when not seen they have been heard laughing and joking.>

This has no obvious connection with our man - except that there probably were two survivors in his case.

Had a wander across from the Tower around there at odd times during the night when all was quiet and we had no traffic, but never saw or heard anything out of the ordinary. :confused:

Evenin', all.

Danny42C.

"From ghosties, ghoulies and long-leggity beasties, Good Lord deliver us".