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ValMORNA
3rd Mar 2014, 20:07
A quick fix when overlarge pictures are shown is to reduce them by


Control and Minus


Unfortunately it reduces the text size too, so don't forget to regain the correct size on later pages by


Control and Plus

Danny42C
3rd Mar 2014, 20:26
ricardian,

(from #5234):

"In the mid 1950’s a 424, of the Airfield Control type, was sold to the Vickers Aircraft Company and was installed at their test airfield at Wisley in Surrey.
TYPE 424 Airfield Control Radars were supplied to over 45 Civil and Military Authorities, a quantity of 22 in the UK and others to countries such as India, New Zealand, Ceylon and Brazil. Total sales were approximately 125".

I think we've got an ident !

Amen to anyone who has an idea to shrink text width ! :confused:

Danny.

Warmtoast
3rd Mar 2014, 22:32
Danny

Amen to anyone who has an idea to shrink text width !

The problem is caused by posts of pictures bigger than the recommended sizes. PPRune's recommended sizes are given here:
http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/410931-new-sizes-your-pics.html

Right-click a photo and then click on properties shows the size of the photo. As stated in the link above the recommended max size is 850 x 850 pixels, recent photos posted in this thread are way over the recommended size. e.g. there is one sized 1536 x 2048 pixels and others at 1200 x 797 pixels. This causes the page to expand to accommodate the photo resulting in text running way over to the right of the page.

ricardian
3rd Mar 2014, 22:47
Sorry Warmtoast, was not aware of the size limitations for images

OffshoreSLF
4th Mar 2014, 19:33
After the Piper Alpha disaster, we got decender things offshore which I can't remember the name of.


It consisted of a thing that resembled a baby's nappy which you stepped into, then the mechanism connected to a ring on the front. A rope hung in a bag at the side. This rope came up through the mechanism and you attached the end to a strong point on the rig. As you stepped off, the rope fed out of the bag and as it passed through the mechanism, it slowed your rate of decent. It was possible to grab the rope, and with modest additional downward pressure, to stop completely. The theory was that you stopped just above the water where you would be seen by rescuers in a boat, and it would be a simple matter for them to pluck you off like apples.


Luckily, I never had to try it in anger, but I do remember leaping (?) off a scaffold tower in a warehouse while being trained in it's use. I remember being quite impressed with the thing - if only I could remember what it was called.

Danny42C
4th Mar 2014, 23:19
The Course ended; we were now deemed fit to take up our (Subsidiary) duties as Fire Officers on our various Stations (no extra pay, though). However SATCO, justifiably aggrieved by losing me for two weeks before I'd even started, demanded that I put Fire Officer on the back burner for a while, reasonably pointing out that that Section seemed to run well enough in the hands of our very capable Sergeant. It had managed quite well without me so far and could do so a bit longer. In fact, he mused, it didn't seem to matter much whether there was an officer there or not (this is uncomfortably near the truth, as in many other Sections).

Examining my F 5994 closely with a magnifying glass, it appears that on 22.12.62., a S/Ldr Anderson, (LEO) turned me loose in Tower, Approach and Radar, so he would certainly have been SATCO (but I haven't the faintest recollection of the man). I think two of the Controllers were Lieutenants RN; chatting to one, I was surprised to hear that he was, effectively, only on a "ground tour" from the Seaman Branch and would be going back to sea duties at the end of it.

"So", I said, "when we hear of 'Ark Royal' going aground ?" .... "Again ?", he said (alluding to an unfortunate incident in Plymouth Sound the previous January).

IIRC, there was nothing out of the ordinary in Tower or Approach (usual CR or CA/DF), or in the local procedures, to frighten the horses. But the Radar was a weird beast of a kind that I'd never seen before, and only vaguely heard about. This was the ACR7C, which I believe I've written about before some time ago, but no matter as the tale is worth retelling.

This came to us in two guises: the 7C (Cossor), which was the mobile version, and the 7D (Decca), which was a fixed installation with the console in the Tower (like the later AR1). Ours was the mobile one, IIRC it was sited somewhere in the "cocked hat" in the middle of the three wartime runways. (I think we only used two of these, Wiki gives 03/21 (2,000 yd) and 10/28 (1400 yd). Placed where it was, it could cover all approaches. (p.262 #5234 has a full description and pictures).

Obviously it had to be mounted in some sort of vehicle. Wiki shows a Commer "Cob" with a 7C on the back, but somehow I can't remember a prime mover at all. I think the console (one 12-in PPI tube) was with its operator in something about the size of a rest caravan. [See Posts #5233 #5234 p.262]

There were no other vehicles, just an external diesel generator to power the radar, and a 40-gallon drum of derv - and I'm quite sure about that as it figures later in my tale.

Of course the ACR7 had no Glide Path, it wasn't a Precision Radar, just a PPI runway approach aid. But these are not to be sneezed at. Both MPN-11/CPN-4 and MPN-1 can be used in this mode, although a PPI approach in the MPN-1 would have to be done from one of the Director positions, as talkdown has no search radar console, only a precision centreline and the "Errormeter", which was operated by the Tracker. I never did one on the MPN-1 (not necessary as it could move round to cover both approaches to the [Strubby] main runway), nor on CPN-4, but at least one on AR-1 (and that was under strange circumstances indeed).

ACR7 had originally been designed for the entirely different purpose of marine estuary control. And as all vessels afloat within 20 miles are more or less on the same plane (pace Union Jack, but even 100 ft between wave crest and trough does not subtend much at 10 miles), they were quite content with a very shallow radar lobe. The PPI only had a range of 20 miles, IIRC, but we never had to do any searching as all our customers were handed to us on a plate by Approach.

Aircraft, on the other hand, have the awkward property of going up and down, so as to square this circle and modify the kit for RAF use, they mounted their aerial so that the mid point of the lobe could be raised from ground level to something like 10º above horizontal, IIRC in about seven stages. So when someone was coming in on a QGH, you were monitoring Approach, knew the height and had a rough idea of his range in the turn. In the hut you had a graph from which you could read off the best elevation "stud" to use - but after the first dozen runs you could guess with fair accuracy on which one of these your man would show best.

In my next Post, I do not need to describe our PPI "Talkdowns" (for those who fancy they have heard the tale before are quite right - below is an edited copy of my Post to ACW418 last July (p.198 #3954 - or it was that serial number yesterday).

"You are of course right - you were in the hot seat, and you know ! IIRC, we used two methods, the "Continous Descent" (with a height check every mile), and the "Step Down". This involved only two (?) steps down, from 1500 ft at 5 miles, to 900 ft; he would hold you at that height till you reached 3 miles, then tell you to descend to whatever MAA was in force. Or something like that, but memory fades. I can well imagine that the first method would be just as hard work for the pilot as hugging a glidepath in GCA, but would have thought the second needed much less brainwork (and was just as safe).

The PPI was impressive. Of course it was a very narrow lobe radar, so you could be really accurate. It was the only gear wth which I've been able to see the runway lights ! And I still recall the sharp-cut little square blip. The story was that it was first designed as an estuary radar, and of course all ships are (for practical purposes) in the same plane. The same thing went into towers as the ACR7D (Teesside Airport had one), but the 7C was a truck".

As I can recall no particular triumphs or disasters directly attributable to my tenure in the ACR7C, I will next time launch out instead onto my Subsidiary career as a Fire Officer.

Goodnight, all.

Danny42C.


The bad workman always blames his tools

Fareastdriver
5th Mar 2014, 08:36
After the Piper Alpha disaster, we got decender things offshore which I can't remember the name of.


That was an emergency abseiling kit designed to be idiot proof. I cannot remember it being used in anger.

I was involved after the Piper Alpha being on the primary support helicopter. During the following morning I had to take the off duty OIM (Offshore Installation Manager) plus others on a recce of the platform whilst it was still burning to get a close up of what was burning and where. Later in the day the same with Red Adair an others.

The pictures taken at that time by Time Magazine and others were from my aircraft.

Smeagol
5th Mar 2014, 14:32
Descender thingy = Donut or equivalent

(pop DONUT into your favorite search engine)

Standard issue on many offshore oil & gas or windfarm installations.

Chugalug2
5th Mar 2014, 16:36
Thanks Smeagol, the details of the device can be found in this brochure:-


http://www.donutsafetysystems.com/pdf/Donut%202007.pdf


Looks like a canny bit of kit. One thing that would concern me though is fire resistance, particularly of the tape, and particularly the bit of the tape that is secured to the oil rig. Do you know if it is capable of retaining its strength in the sort of high temperatures that Piper Alpha sustained? Given that it is designed to keep personnel suspended above the sea so that they may be easily sighted, remain reasonably warm and dry, and can be picked off by rescue craft, such qualities would appear essential, yet the blurb merely speaks of the 'high strength' of the tape, and the 'extreme heat' that it mentions is merely that of the Middle East, Far East and Australian environments.


Strange that such vital properties of an escape system from such potentially inflammable locations are not mentioned. A bit like selling Fire Doors with no mention of the duration of the fire resistance that they provide...


Danny, perhaps as you have just done the RAF Fire Officers Course you might have a view? I have a suspicion that it might well be down to our old friends from the "Tripped or fallen at work? Then dial 0870****** and we will get you rewarded".


If you make no claims for your product then presumably you cannot be sued for not meeting them, which is almost as pointless as the Victorians' advertising copy that knew limits in claiming miraculous properties for their medicinal compounds.

Danny42C
5th Mar 2014, 18:04
Chugalug,

I'm not really a good witness in these matters - having had a go in one fifty years ago and never set eyes on the kit since. I'd never thought about them being used on blazing oil/gas rigs (for a start, you'd have to forget about the nylon line I suggested). We really had in mind just old fashioned British brick/concrete/stone edifices when eight floors was a skyscraper to us, and we didn't have "towering infernos" - we had no towers !

I don't know how high they proposed to go with the Davy idea, but I imagine it would be a bit hairy when you got past ten floors. (Does the DONUT system have anything like the the Davy centrifugal brake ?)

"Tripped or fallen at work ?" :{.....Hard luck, old chap - should've looked where you were going ! (always the stiff upper lip).

Can nobody get our page back to proper width, so I can read it without sliding it from side to side ? (Or is the fog just in my cockpit ?)

Danny.

ValMORNA
5th Mar 2014, 20:24
Danny,


As a temporary measure you could try adjusting the 'Zoom' factor. Click on the little 'cogwheel icon' on the top right of your screen. You can adjust Zoom by various fixed percentages or try the 'custom' label and 'pick your own'.


Have spent many weeks/months catching up on this wonderful episode of life, initially snooping as a guest and finally signing-on on 1st Jan 2014. I shall eventually give a potted history, but, just for the moment, a reference to your posts about VVs and 84 Squadron. I am pleased to say that Squadron Leader Arthur M Gill is still President of the 84 Squadron Association, although for health reasons has not attended reunions for a year or so.


Regards

Warmtoast
5th Mar 2014, 22:59
Ricardian

Sorry Warmtoast, was not aware of the size limitations for images

It would be helpful if you resized your pictures to PPRune's recommended max size of 850 x 850 pixels as mentioned above.
To do this reduce the size of the photos you plan to download/post on PPRune's thread. Then click the Edit button on your post and delete the oversized photos and finally insert correct size ones in their place.

This will reduce complaints and make reading the thread easy once again.

Danny42C
5th Mar 2014, 23:12
ValMORNA,

You might have been a younger version of me ! Like you, I found PPRuNe mid-2011, and watched carefully from a safe distance for six months before timidly sticking my oar in Jan 2012. Don't wait too long - it's later than you think !

I've seen cogwheels before somewhere on a Window, but can't find one here now. Of course I can use Ctrl + "-" to downsize everything from the 150% I'm normally comfortable with, to 100%, and everything fits nicely, but the letters are so tiny then (and my eyes so old !) that it's not practicable.

My log is countersigned by S/Ldr A.M.Gill for April 1943. This would have been at Madhaigang (in Bengal); I know 84 Sqn were there at the time, and he was their CO. I suppose 110 were short of a CO, so he did the honours. Give him my regards (no names, no pack drill). I was a Sgt/Pilot on "A" Flight (F/O R.C.Topley Flt Commander) then.

Cheers, Danny.

ValMORNA
6th Mar 2014, 19:33
Danny,


If you have no 'cogwheel', try Alt and X which will take you to 'Tools' where you can play with percentages.

Danny42C
6th Mar 2014, 21:42
ValMORNA,

Tried it, nothing happened (but then I don't have Word - would that have something to do with it ?).

I am a rabbit at this game. Best wait for ricardian and Warmtoast to sort it out. I'll wait.

Danny.

ricardian
6th Mar 2014, 22:29
I cannot resize the image because it is from a website over which I have no control. Sorry for all the hassle

Fareastdriver
7th Mar 2014, 10:17
There you are, Ricardian

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/1957834_3942665302476_805062210_o_zpsa30196b6.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/1957834_3942665302476_805062210_o_zpsa30196b6.jpg.html)

These photographs of a rusting trailer in a quarry in Malta were posted on Facebook recently

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/1912061_268601793303608_647172241_o_zpsd1999c60.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/1912061_268601793303608_647172241_o_zpsd1999c60.jpg.html)

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/1511571_268601816636939_948825571_o_zps7980c955.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/1511571_268601816636939_948825571_o_zps7980c955.jpg.html)

If you go back to your post and EDIT, the panel will show the origin of the pictures. Delete those little bits and the script will return to normal. As far as the caption for the picture of the radar set is concerned just refer it to post 5267.

Danny42C
7th Mar 2014, 16:32
Fareastdriver, Hallelujah ! Thanks ! Danny.

Danny42C
7th Mar 2014, 23:21
The first thing was to see what I'd let myself in for. I met my Sergeant (oh, what was his name ? In '41 I remember Cpl Shepherd, in '43 F/Sgt Darling, in '45 Sgt Williams and in '51 Sgt Watt). From all of these I received much invaluable advice and the benefit of their long RAF experiences, for which I (as a junior officer) would be for ever grateful. So what has happened now to my memories of names (between '51 and '62 and onwards) that I cannot recall them ? (I know, of course: "Anno Domini" !)

No matter, my good Sergeant showed me around. First, we had a look at the hardware. The rescue vehicle was the standard LWB Landrover. Its task (with a crew of three [?]) is to reach the accident scene as fast as possible and get people out. It has powered metal-cutting saws, ladders and a huge searchlight to illuminate the scene, but only enough fire-fighting power (fire-retardent dry powder propelled through tubes by nitrogen and also CO² - "dry ice") to protect the rescuers in action. It is not a water-carrier (this would be too heavy, as it weighs two tons already). For foam production, it was dependent on the pride of the fleet.

This was our Alvis Mk.6 "Salamander" - the firefighting version of the "Saracen" armoured car. 6x6, all independently sprung and equally spaced with the front 4 steering, it was surprisingly agile on rough and uneven ground, and good for 60 mph on the road, for all its 13 tons. Powered by Rolls-Royce and with a crew of a Cpl plus five, it was a truly impressive piece of machinery. Curiously, our crews always referred to it as the "Mk.6", or "The Saracen", and it was quite some time before I learned the proper name.

It was a foam-maker par excellence. The huge foam monitor over the cab could put out 7,500 gallons of foam per minute from the 700 gallons of water and about 100 gallons of the foaming agent on board. IIRC, it could throw foam about 100 ft or more. Of course, it doesn't need a gallon of water to make 10 gallons of foam. The wily publican sees to it that his bar staff put out the ale with a nice "head" on it - thereby selling air at beer price. And the effect can best be seen in a flûte of champagne - the fizz vanishes in a moment or two, but the liquid level hardly rises.

There was a little-known use to which the foaming agent could be put. Although we called it "Saphonine", that was only a part (so it was said) of an unsavoury mixture with the effluents (blood and guts) draining from the runnels of abattoirs. Normally the agent is injected with the air into the water in the monitor only at the point of use, but it seems that a "pre-mix" can be prepared which only needs the compressed air.

This has a secondary purpose. If sprayed as it is (not foamed) over a recalcitrant mob, it has been found very effective in dispersing them, for anyone soaked in the stuff can give up social life for at least a week, as the stink will last that time (even after repeated baths) before dispersing. :*

(All this, you must understand, is as told to me by Old Fire Hands, and I cannot vouch for any of it). The effect is not detectable in foam, perhaps because the agent content is insignificant. In any event, I suppose it would not be allowed today, as there is probably a Human Right to Smell Nice which cannot be curtailed.

Supporting the "First Team" were the Standby vehicles. We had a Thornycroft foam-maker (but I'm not sure it had a monitor - I think the foam was pumped through hoses - and it had narrow bore rubber hose for smaller domestic fires. Finally, we had a "Fire Tender", which IIRC was primarily a water-carrier.

All the time the airfield was open for flying, the Landrover (Crash 1), Mark 6 (Crash 2) and Crash 3 (the ambulance) would be in position in the Fire Bay alongside or behind the ATC Tower. All Crash Vehicles are in R/T contact with each other and with Local Control in the Tower.

There is a great deal more to be said about this vital service, but I must leave that for another day; next time we'll give some thought to the problems of living "out in the sticks".

Goodnight, chaps.

Danny42C.


Frequently seen manuscript addition to "Action in the Event of Fire" Notices. After "If the Fire is too big for you to put out" - "find a smaller one !".

Geriaviator
9th Mar 2014, 15:39
More than 60 years ago I was told that the foaming agent in the fire trucks contained urea extracted from animal blood, hence the awful smell a few days later. The stuff had a very high nitrogen content, so Warrant Officer Gilliland at Binbrook seized the time-expired cans to sprinkle upon his rose beds. The results were magnificent but nobody dared go close enough to smell the luxuriant blooms.

Of course such smelly occasions and their gruesome background were of great appeal to small boys, especially as we were told the blood came from the pigs which we saw being slaughtered behind John Cook's butcher shop in the village. So maybe this particular child was having his leg pulled. :hmm:

CoffmanStarter
9th Mar 2014, 15:55
Geriaviator ...

I remember a rather humorous incident at RAF Manston where a rather over-weight MOD Plod tried to chase after a local tomato grower who was attempting to nick buckets of foam during the clear-up hose down. Apparently one of the constituents of the foam was sourced from ox blood ... which worked a treat on tomatoes ... that is until an additive was introduced to prolong the shelf life of the foam ... which was poisonous to tomatoes ...

Pom Pax
9th Mar 2014, 17:06
Having wasted much of Sunday following the Malay thread, I see search heights of 3, 5, 7 and 10 thousand feet being mentioned.
I recall being taught that 200 ft was ideal and 500 ft was the upper limit. I know that the object was a person or dinghy. But the current search is for floating debris like seat cushions so has the thinking changed in the past 50+ years?
I know that instructor believed an AVM's son should have been found if the search had been conducted at a lower level. Of course both he and his no 2 were ex Sunderlands. At the time they were still in service and I remember notes being shown for mooring said beasts.

Danny42C
9th Mar 2014, 18:58
Geriaviator and Coffman Starter,

Thanks for the confirmation ! (I always had a suspicion that the "mob spraying" was a fairy tale).....D.

Pom Pax,

In the wrong shop, mate, I think !....D.

Cheers, all. Danny.

MPN11
9th Mar 2014, 19:08
I have, on many occasions, seen Crash trucks deployed to various entry points to control 'exercise demonstrators' but that was, I suspect, in 'exercise water cannon mode' rather than expending expensive foam compounds :cool:

Pure reportage ... My normal DISTAFF role was to dismantle ATC, Base Ops and other key functions, instead of overseeing 'rabble control'. That's what RAF Regt DISTAFF are for.

Pom Pax
10th Mar 2014, 01:21
Sorry Danny,
Dragged a garbled reference out of the old grey matter should have Yahooed first. It wasn't son but twin brother Air Vice Marshal David Francis William Atcherley CB CBE DSO DFC (12 January 1904 – 8 June 1952).
I quote wiki :- "In June 1952, Atcherley was lost at sea, presumed dead whilst piloting a Meteor jet fighter PR Mk.10 ( from No. 13 Squadron). Taking off from RAF Fayid in Egypt at 8:00 am for a 40-minute flight to Nicosia in Cyprus, his aircraft never arrived at Nicosia, and no radio message was received. No trace of Atcherley or his aircraft was ever found despite an extensive air-sea search being carried out by RAF, Israeli, Turkish and USAF aircraft."
It was our instructors view that the search was carried out at too greater an altitude, whether or not this was an official view at the time I do not know but Sir Richard was AOC FTC at the time.

Danny42C
10th Mar 2014, 12:57
Pom Pax,

Never met David, but had an uncomforable few minutes (cap and gloves on !) in front of Richard ("Batchy"), AOC 12 Gp., in the year in which his brother was lost - hopefully before it happened, but cannot be sure now.

Danny.

Warmtoast
10th Mar 2014, 21:00
Pom Pax

It was our instructors view that the search was carried out at too greater an altitude, whether or not this was an official view at the time I do not know

A couple of contemporary press reports, one showing the range of aircraft involved in the search. The piston-engine types would have the capability to search at low-level, but whether they did or not is another matter.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/AVMAtcherley_zps307c0979.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/AVMAtcherley2_zpsd26e6838.jpg

ValMORNA
10th Mar 2014, 21:39
I was involved in that particular search. Unable to say what height we flew at but feel that had there been any evidence of wreckage it would have been seen. Did Meteors float well?

ValMORNA
12th Mar 2014, 20:55
Why did I want to be Aircrew? In 1941 I watched the Battle of Britain being fought over our heads as I helped my Mother in the hop gardens of Arthur Guinness in Bodiam, Kent. We cheered when we saw a combatant fall, expecting that it was 'one of theirs'. Although we lived in East Sussex (I can honestly say that I spent the whole of the war in Battle) we commuted daily at the crack of dawn every autumn to augment the family income while protecting the livelihood of publicans throughout the country.
A contributory factor in my 'Wings' desire was an incident on 2nd February 1943. As I was diligently making my way to school three sneaky FW190s decided to wage war on Battle Abbey. One bomb exploded less than 100 yards behind me, demolishing a newsagents' shop, killing two. Another, way off to the right, messed up the cricket pitch. The central one landed in front of the Abbey gateway, shot through, startling the Canadian army sentry, and failed to explode. Extremely lucky, really, as there were two tons of explosives stored in the gateway. I was on the pavement opposite, just outside the Abbey Hotel public house where a good Samaritan picked me up and deposited me inside, despite me being under-age. My first, but not last visit.
If any further impetus was required it was the 'Doodlebug' campaign of 1944-45. Several of the missiles decided it was too much effort to fly to London so dropped in the local area, the closest being in a field at the bottom of our garden. Many windows in our and the neighbours' houses were broken which did Dad a good turn as, when they were re-glazed, he got the contract to do the repainting.
When hostilities ended I told Dad that a notice in a shop window in Hastings advertised flights in an Auster for 10/- from Lympne, including a taxi each way. The 'gofer' working for him was persuaded to go with me, so, off we went for a quick trip along the coast and back - I have no idea how long it lasted, but it was the REAL THING!
Eventually I joined the ATC (304 Squadron, Hastings) which further fanned the flames as we went on summer camps, flying in the Dominie (DH89 version), Dakota, Lincoln (a round trip to see Hastings from the air) and the B29 Washington. A bonus was the fact that we had an instructor who was RAFVR and occasionally flew Tiger Moths from Rochester and he took me along a couple of times. He was also into motor-cycling, racing at Brands Hatch when it was still a grass track.
Our morse instructor was very good but never explained what he did, as a civilian, in the war. I came to a conclusion during my later career - more anon.

I'm sorry this is not as interesting as some of our fellow aviator's exploits; hopefully things will improve next time.

smujsmith
12th Mar 2014, 21:06
ValMORNA,

If I may be so bold, please don't worry about interesting, I think many will already think that you lived in "interesting times". I'm sure that Danny, the duty tea bar mechanic:ouch: will be along to agree. I'm sure you have some very interesting stuff to tell us, and as you are now resident in gods country (Staffordshire) I declare an interest, I'm Staffordshire born and bred. Welcome on behalf of the "younger" followers of this thread, you will enjoy the banter and diversion.

Smudge:ok:

Chugalug2
12th Mar 2014, 23:05
ValMORNA, welcome aboard Sir! I can but echo smuj's comments. This thread has become a treasured link to a distant country where they do things differently, and the person who now guides us through it is most likely the last one able to start his tale iaw the thread title.
Danny rightly reminds us of the tireless patience of the Mods who smile indulgently on our meanderings, for they know a good thing when they see it! As with all meandering, the secret is to amble, to take one's time, to be ever ready to explore unexpected diversions, and above all to enjoy good company!
So be assured that your memories will be our revelations, each shining a light into the obscure shadows.
Danny will no doubt pass on his tricks of the trade so I'll not pre-empt them, but simply say that you have already created a green eyed monster from the contents of your Record of Service Book; DH89, Dakota, Lincoln, B29, lucky man! All I can share with you is the DH89, for it was in its Dragon Rapide guise that I had my first brief flight, once round the Northolt circuit. That was enough though, I was smitten!

Danny42C
12th Mar 2014, 23:37
valMORNA and Smudge,

May I second every word which Smudge has just said ! Every story of wartime or post war reminisences must necessarily be unique: all are of equal value. Press on rewardless! (as I was told by Chugalug at the start).

valMORNA, you seem to have had an interesting time in Battle (to say the least). The tale of the messed-up cricket pitch touches a chord. In '41, before call-in from "Deferred Service", I was cycling in to my job in Liverpool from Maghull (8 miles out). Half way I passed a big "Road House" (suburban pub).

They'd just finished laying down a beautiful new bowling green (I don't think it'd ever been played on). There'd been a big raid on the city the night before, a stray bomb had blown a huge crater out of the exact centre. :( A sad sight indeed.....D.

Chugalug,

(You've been absent for a while, I was getting quite worried) As ever, I join you (and us all, I'm sure) in our thanks to our Moderators - may their Tribe Increase !....D

My next instalment follows.

Cheers, all. Danny.

Danny42C
13th Mar 2014, 00:06
Breighton would be at the back of beyond. The problem of the marooned Mrs D. would arise again. I had the (still crated) "Winged Wheel", * but that would be quite out of the question now. The commute would be 25 miles, including a transit of York. It was "not on". Not for the first time I rued the day that I'd parted with the "Bond".

Something simple, cheap to buy and run, and hopefully reliable was needed. It shouldn't be too difficult. An AFS is usually awash with moribund old "bangers", passed down from hand to hand through generations of students. The MOT regulations had come in about this time, and that must have thinned the stock out quite a bit, but there must be plenty left still.

I put the word around that I was in the market. Almost at once I got a bite. A young nav offered a lhd 4-wheel BMW "Isetta" (no, I don't know what a nav was doing in a pilot AFS, it would be unusual for a nav to be retrained as pilot. Perhaps he was on the Ground School staff). Whatever, he had this faded blue "Isetta" for sale. I knew nothing at all about these things, apart from the fact that they were at the top of the bubble-car tree. The idea was the exact opposite to that which had inspired the Bond of an earlier period.

The Bond was a scaled-up three-wheeled scooter (Vesta/Lambretta type) with a lawnmower engine, a bench seat for 2-3 and rudimentary weather protection. The Isetta was a scaled down car. You had a bench seat of much the same size, but a big glass screen with a proper wiper. There were decent lights, hydraulic brakes all round, a 300cc 4-stroke engine with electric starter driving the back wheel(s) through a 4-speed and reverse gearbox: it drove exactly like a small car.

The really unique feature was the front (and only) door. Hinged at the side and stretching the full width of the car, getting in and out was perfectly easy. Not only that, but you could park it end-on to the pavement; with the front wheels hard against the kerb, the back end stuck out no further into the road than a badly parked car. In this way you could shoe-horn into parking spaces where your only competition was from m/cycles - and parking was never easy in York.

Solidly built with steel body on a tubular steel chassis, it was much heavier than the Bond (you couldn't pick the back up and carry it round !). This was reflected in a much greater consumption (I got around 50 mpg), but for that you had cruising and max speeds about 10 mph faster. Careful driving was essential; there being nothing between you and the accident.

As the steering wheel and instrument binnacle were fitted to the door at the hinge side, a very complicated system of rods and u/joints took the shaft to the steering box, the wheel coming to the horizontal when the door was fully open (Wiki gives a detailed description of the vehicle, with plenty of photos).

It was almost perfect for my purposes (and an excellent shopping vehicle, too). Fresh air was provided by push-down side windows and a full-length canvas "sunshine roof", but it had no heater (although you could get one - a hot-air duct drawing air over the cylinder fins - but I didn't bother).

They had never been cheap (no idea of the new price, but this one was about as old as they came, and we shook hands on £70). I have no idea of the mileage. It served me well for the 15 months I had it, and will be the centrepiece of two good stories to come.

And now I had better return to my Fire Section to take that story forward.

Goodnight once more,

Danny42C


....."Three wheels on my wagon,".....(well, four actually, but the back two were so close together that they count as one).

Note * I never took the Winged Wheel out of the crate. IIRC, at Leeming I gave it to P/O Bob MacEvoy to play with.

mmitch
13th Mar 2014, 11:34
There is a owner's club Danny..... Isetta Owners Club of Great Britain (http://isetta-owners-club-gb.com/)
Some photos here. Isetta bubble car - Searchya - Search Results Yahoo Search Results (http://uk.yhs4.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?hspart=ironsource&hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_003&type=dsites1202&p=Isetta+bubble+car)
mmitch.

ancientaviator62
13th Mar 2014, 14:40
Danny,
have you seen how much these 'bubble cars' are worth these days ?

Wander00
13th Mar 2014, 16:06
Saw an Isetta in a show room in Copenhagen a couple of years back - reminded me of my brother's similar car - you had to leave room in front when parkins so as to be able to open the door. He used to frighten me to death by driving up to within inches of the backs of busses.

Fareastdriver
13th Mar 2014, 16:18
We had a massive oak dining table in our house and as soon as the sirens went my sister and I were ushered underneath it until the All Clear. When the unmistakable sound of a Doodlebug came over we used to hide until the engine stopped.


Then we would rush outside to see where it had landed.


My great-grandparents received the last but one, so we were told, V2 launched by the Germans. They lived near Doddinghurst in Essex and were having a cup of tea in the kitchen. Their garden was about eighty yards long and it landed at the end of it. The house was a timber frame house with rendered chicken wire for the walls. The detonation blew out the windows, the rendering, half the doors and all the tiles off the roof. My grandparents were unharmed apart from hearing difficulties over the next few days.

The timber frame was relatively unharmed and the house was reoccupied before the end of the war. Later on when I went there bits of V2 were surfacing all the time, including a curved section of the combustion chamber.

What was originally built as a cheap alternative to a brick-built house is now worth some £650,000.

Danny42C
13th Mar 2014, 17:02
mmitch,

Thanks for the link (and all the little links in close line astern). First one I saw was £3.49. "About right", I thought. Then found it was a fridge magnet. Two doors further on - £11,999 !

Mrs D wails "why, oh why, didn't we keep it ?" (not for the first time in our rough Island story !)

"Owner's Club" ? They must be daft ! Flog it ! (I still have the Dinky-toy)......D.


ancientaviator,

"Worth" ? - matter of opinion ! (although they could be a good idea in town traffic even today; they could hold their own there, but no motorway cruiser. Yet if you could sell that Sinclair C-5 thing a few years back, you can sell anything.

Ah, the wonder of hindsight ! Once (I read somewhere on this Thread), Spitfires were going for scrap at £25. Now if I'd invested my War Gratuity in half-a-dozen as an investment, even allowing for storage in some old barn and fettling-up now, just think........D.

Cheers, Danny.

Warmtoast
13th Mar 2014, 21:26
Danny

When I was at Lyneham in the early 1960's someone on the station had a Messerschmitt 2-seater. Looked rather smart and with its tandem seating would have suited aviators used to such a configuration.

Nice picture here:
File:Messerschmitt Kabinenroller Microcar.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Messerschmitt_Kabinenroller_Microcar.jpg)

MPN11
14th Mar 2014, 10:09
A mate at Watton in the early 70s had one too ... he was going to paint it in WW2 camouflage and markings, but I can't remember if he actually got round to doing it.

Jock, are you reading this? Confirm or deny, please!

Danny42C
14th Mar 2014, 13:16
Warmtoast and MPN11,

Not much use for courting, though (Bond much better !)

The Kabinroller was supposed to be frighteningly fast (with 200cc) - reckoned the fastest of the lot.

Danny.

Pom Pax
14th Mar 2014, 15:44
Once accepted a lift from Emsworth station to the Mess in a Messerschmitt, how we got through the Deeps S bend in a 3 wheel drift I'll never know.
In those days Plod was a bit more tolerant as as this budding "Mike Hawthorn" was stopped in Pompey with 7 in said Messerschmitt, himself& one in the front, two in the back and one riding on back with legs inside and finally two in the lid.
I understand 4 of the passengers were female.

I later had an Isetta when fitted with C47 Town & Country on the rear was very good in snow as the single driving wheel was in virgin snow. (Mini tyres fitted an Isetta)

"Isetta" (https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1/1621816_10203130222002504_1083167457_n.jpg)

Molemot
14th Mar 2014, 16:42
The Messerschmitt also came in a 4 wheel version...a fearsome thing....

FMR Tg500 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMR_Tg500)

The three wheeled one was as fast going backwards as forwards, as reverse was obtained by starting the engine up in the opposite rotation! I recall that one held the record for driving backwards..80+ mph along the runway at Blackbushe, so the story went....

And then there's this....!!!!


http://lh5.ggpht.com/abramsv/SCOfn80G8RI/AAAAAAAAQe8/gMqAvZT4jSA/whattadrag-04.jpg?imgmax=512 (http://www.microcarmuseum.com/tour/whattadrag.html)


Proving they're not all locked up yet...

MPN11
14th Mar 2014, 16:51
I fear a diversion onto sexual activity in small vehicles ... But then I guess we all know the answer. We were more flexible in those days ;)

I did like the days of front bench seats, though.

Danny42C
14th Mar 2014, 18:36
I may be away for some time. No PMs or e-mails please TFN. Will let you know when I get back.

Danny42C.

MPN11
14th Mar 2014, 18:56
All the best, Danny42C, whatever that is. :ok:

Wander00
14th Mar 2014, 18:58
Anyone remember the series of letters in Motor Sport in the late 50s/early 60s on the topic of the possibility or not of achieving intercourse in a frog eye Sprite. Eventually a notice appeared in the letters page - "This correspondence must end. Ed"

MPN11
14th Mar 2014, 19:04
Wander00 ... I assure you it is possible. Been there, done that. Just saying ...

... No roof, of course, and in the sunshine in Singapore in a remote location. I wonder if Jane is tracking this thread?

... oh, and mine had an Ashley bonnet, so cooler than a Froggy ;)

Faded photo from 1967 ... Oops, apologies for not checking image size


http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/Sprite.jpg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/Sprite.jpg.html)

MPN11
14th Mar 2014, 19:38
... and one of these (mine was black, I didn't have a camera back then) was brilliant, unless it bogged down in a field near a certain East Anglian OCTU very close to curfew for female officer cadets ... she had to get out and push (the car).

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/1956fordpopulararp600pix.jpg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/1956fordpopulararp600pix.jpg.html)

Pom Pax
14th Mar 2014, 22:14
Anyone remember the series of letters in Motor Sport in the late 50s/early 60s on the topic of the possibility or not of achieving intercourse in a frog eye Sprite. Eventually a notice appeared in the letters page - "This correspondence must end. Ed"
I think the inspiration for this series of letters was a well published court case when Plod was a bit less tolerant. A couple of rally drivers were accused of doing the deed in a Sprite on the forecourt of a well known North West London specialist engine tuner and accessory supplier. I believe the Beck threw the case out.

blind pew
15th Mar 2014, 07:38
I bought three Isettas in the early 1980s ...the first two were for SWISSAIR captains on the DC9. I hired a trailer, drove them up to Heathrow and they were put into the hold of an A300 bound for Geneva. The third I kept for myself as it had already been restored.
I took the back roads from Wickford onto the Southend arterial road and gunned it scaring the living daylights out of me. My wife was following the cloud of two stroke oil smoke in our Saab 900. At home I proudly asked her what speed I hit thinking it must have been around 70 mph....giggeling she said just over 30.
Never drove it again and the following year I bought a Bristol 409 with a 5.3 V8 which I still have.
Lost about three grand on the bubble cars :bored:

Chugalug2
15th Mar 2014, 09:00
Danny, hope all is well with you. We all hope to hear from you ASAP.

Another bubble car, not dissimilar to the Isetta, was the Heinkel Kabine powered by a 10PS single cylinder air cooled four stroke unit. It always struck me as the 'classiest' of the trio compared to the Iso and the Messerschmitt, but beauty as they say...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Paris_-_Bonhams_2013_-_Heinkel_kabine_micro_car_-_1957_-_006.jpg/280px-Paris_-_Bonhams_2013_-_Heinkel_kabine_micro_car_-_1957_-_006.jpg

Interesting that so many of the bubble cars and scooters of those days were produced by aviation related companies, though given the sudden drop in demand for fighters and bombers it was perhaps understandable.

mmitch
15th Mar 2014, 09:09
Didn't one (or more) make have a kick start pedal on the engine? As they used motor cycle engines, it was the simplest way of starting, but a nuisance if you stalled it in traffic!
mmitch.

smujsmith
17th Mar 2014, 20:39
Just musing on the end of WW2 and the similarity with today's "perceived" celebration of withdrawal from Afghanistan, I can't help but wonder how many, at the end of WW2 believed in a world (or country at least) looking to a life free of war and full of technological advancement. I for one, on joining in 1969, had little belief that I would be involved in military shenanigans during my service, how wrong one can be. We are lucky that, sharing a common bond (the RAF) we have access to such real personal history as we do on this thread. I'm sure that in its conception, Cliff, didn't forsee the "crew room" that it would become. But, with mod indulgence, I believe that this thread could become (to some degree already has) an ongoing narrative on life in our service, since WW2. Unlike most of our modern newspapers GAPWIWW2 has no fears of going where others dare not. Long may that continue, and lets start hearing from some more of you National servicemen etc from the 50s, there must be more to bring our history to light.

Smudge :ok:

Chugalug2
18th Mar 2014, 08:12
Good post, Smudge. I joined 10 years before you and the last thing on my mind was war, rather it was to get through training and in particular flying training in my case. I was still at AFTS when Cuba was happening but the same preoccupations pertained.

I doubt if perceptions have changed much since then, it is more a case that as you grow older your horizons broaden until, at the stage of life most of us are who post here now, you finally see the woods for the trees.

War time memories, as this thread demonstrates, are those that had a personal impact. The broader issues of, "Why are we here?", and, "What's it all about?", tend to have to wait for someone else to dot the i's and cross the t's.

In a way the charm of this thread is that it works in the reverse way. We all have a broadbrush picture of the history of WW2, or even of the Cold War. What makes it real though are the recollections of those who experienced and lived through it, for theirs are the memories of "Millions Like Us" and they speak for a generation, and one that we all owe a great debt to.

Danny42C
18th Mar 2014, 09:49
blind pew (your #5301)

Yes, I well remember how the sight of the roadway streaming past about two feet down under your nose gave a false impression of speed - and a clear appreciation of danger ahead !

A £3,000 loss on a single Isetta in '80 ? What on earth did you buy at ? (or was that over the three ?) For that money then you could get quite a decent 2/h five-year old car. Still, for folk who can afford a Bristol 409 :D and keep a 5.3 V-8 in petrol at 127.9p a litre, I suppose it was of little concern......D.


Chugalug (your #5302)

Didn't remember the Heinkel (but a nice pic all the same) - I don't think they were as numerous as the Isettas, but very much to the same design. Looking them up, it seems that both were produced as three and four-wheelers. The three-wheelers were a tax- advantageous thing in the UK, but were supposed to be dangerously unstable. I don't see how two wheels at the back (20in apart) would improve matters much, but that was how it was said to be.

The story I was told was that the 300cc single in the BMW Isetta was just half of the legendary 600cc twin which powered the mud-plugging sidecar combinations which always appear in newsreel film of the Wehrmacht during the war. If so then it must have been de-rated to produce only 10hp, but that may have accounted for the complete reliability. It never failed to start, or missed a beat, or gave any trouble all the time I had it until catastrophic engine failure finished it off :{(as I've said before, I'd no idea of the total mileage, it may well have been enormous).

But Wiki has the whole story: it seems that it may have been a stand-alone design....D.


mmitch (your #5303)

The more expensive ones usually had "dynamotor" starters. The "cheapos" (Bond for example) took the kick crank off the splines, refitted it 150º "advanced", then pulled it over TDC through a cable from the crank through the bulkhead to a long hand lever hinged on the cockpit floor. The cable was attached about 1/3 way up the lever, so you had a 3:1 mechanical advantage on your pull. Worked quite well.

Can't see how they would get a foot inside the engine compartments to kick-start (perhaps an external starting handle "dogged" to the crankshaft like all the old cars had ?)......D.

Cheers, all. Danny.

MPN11
18th Mar 2014, 09:52
Welcome back, Danny42C ... :ok:

Danny42C
18th Mar 2014, 10:27
It may surprise some, but all this expensive equipmment is supplied for one, and only one primary purpose - to attend aircraft crash incidents on and in the vicinity of the airfield, to save life and extinguish any fire which may break out on the aircraft involved. Many think that the "Standbys" back on the Station Fire Section are in some sense "domestic" appliances, available to deal with station building fires and chip-pan incidents on the "patches".

They were not (at least not while the airfield was open for air traffic). The sequence of events envisaged was this: aircraft crashes on or close to your airfield, Crash 1,2 & 3 are sent to the scene. But you very probably have other air traffic in the circuit or approaching. These would now have no crash cover, and would need diverting or face a long stand-off. So you bring your standbys up to the Tower while you get the others down.

Air Traffickers will probably remember that this was a staple item in "Shawbury Mock" exercises, the instructor developing a scenario where the Station Commander's MQ is in flames, the student is pressured to send the standby to deal with it (Local Controller had discretion to do this in my day). But should he do so, the inevitable will happen, and he'll be "caught with his pants down".

So whose responsibility is it to put the Station Commader's fire out ? The nearest civilian Fire Brigade - his Quarter is in the same boat as any humble cottage in the village - at least in theory. Of course, this applies only when the airfield is open. Outside flying hours the full resources of the Fire Section would be available to tackle domestic incidents. But I cannot remember many of these, the most notable being the case (mentioned in a long past Post) of my Fire Sergeant's own MQ (which made it all the more embarrassing !), where considerable delay in the response was caused by the failure of the AMQ Fire Alarm system at the Guardroom end as a result of over-enthusiastic "bumping", which had dislodged a connecting plug on the skirting board there.

This incident reinforced my experience that every emergency system should be tested at least weekly, or it'll surely fail on the day. My "off watch" firemen where constantly busy testing fire hydrants, servicing fire extiguishers round the camp and checking fire alarms, beside maintaining and polishing the vehicles and keeping our buildings spick and span. My Sergeant and I went round Station buildings on Fire Safety inspections. We regularly organised rescue training on our "scrap" Vampires on the burning ground on the far side of the airfield - for this is the really important part - getting the people out quickly, if possible before a fire starts. All aircraft fires are different, of course, but in general I would say that, if a fire is not killed in five minutes, eveyone aboard is either out or dead.

Here I made a small name for myself. We had a single-seat Vampire (u/c up) on the ground, put a chap in the cockpit with Mae West and parachute on ("K" dinghy attached), full seat harness, helmet * with oxygen tube and radio plug connected, to "play dead". We had a dummy or two as well, but only used these in live fires. I think we had volunteer studes in the cockpit for many of the "dry" runs. (I can't remember ever having a T11 to practise on).

You set two firemen to get him out (any more just get in each other's way) and you need a third man to stand by to back them up with CO² or dry powder if needed. You might suppose that it was easy to free an "unconscious" man of his trappings and lift him out. It isn't. With a big man it's a struggle indeed, for you've * got no good foothold on top of the circular fuselage. I hit on a way to simplify the task.

Use a section of the L/Rover ladder, a simple pulley hooked to the top rung, a line and an underarm strop. Prop your ladder up against the fuselage side, disentangle your victim and get the strop on him, and "yeo, heave ho". When he's clear enough of the cockpit sides, pull the whole lot over to you from the aircraft so that he falls on the ladder as you take it back; you've got a sort of "tumbrel" to act as an improvised stretcher to pull him away from danger. We tried it; it worked like a charm: I got a £15 Award for the idea.

* Don't think we had "bone-domes" yet. And certainly no ejector-seats.

Next time, the Isetta figures as the star of the show.

Good Morning, all.

Danny42C


......"My old man's a fireman/Whadd'y think of that?/'E wears gorblimey trousers/an' a little gorblimey 'at/'E wears a bloomin' muffler around 'is bloomin' throat .........

Fareastdriver
18th Mar 2014, 10:52
MPN 11

You're using photobucket for your Sprite. You can always resize it.

MPN11
18th Mar 2014, 12:28
Practice Fires. It was sunny Manby, c. 1966, when it was decided to have a proper smoke/flame Practice Crash using the newly-delivered Meteor fire practice wreck on the burning area.

So it was that assorted bods, myself included, attended the performance (watching at a safe distance). Flammable liquids were duly distributed on and under the unsuspecting aircraft, and were duly lit.

SATCO (Harry Pollitt, IIRC) then ordered the red Verey to be fired as the signal for the Crash Crew to attend. The Duty Pistol Firer, Plt Off Arthur (something) of Manby ATC, had been so entranced by proceedings that he hadn't anticipated the instruction. Further shouting from SATCO made Arthur realise that he now needed to run to the ATC Landrover parked at some safe distance and fire the red. He eventually got there. Needless to say, the first cartridge misfired. Eventually he found another, and a red ball of light soared into the air ... the Crash Crew mounted up (if they weren't already on board) and set off across the airfield for the burning area.

Basically, by the time they eventually arrived and started deploying foam (from their Mk 5), the 'new' Meteor only consisted of a tail unit, the cockpit and 2 wingtips.

I believe they got another Meteor a few weeks later. I just retreated to Strubby and let them get on with it.

Molemot
18th Mar 2014, 14:44
Back in winter 1973, Moley was flying Varsities from RAF Oakington. He'd been an avid aeromodeller for years...and had just finished a rather nice control line stunt model. This was about 4 feet wingspan and powered by a .35 cubic inch glowmotor. Nearly time for the first flight...so it seemed appropriate to conduct an engine run first, to check out the fuel system. There being snow on the ground, the warmth of his room in the Mess was attractive....and it would only be a few seconds running; what could go wrong?(!)

So an old tin tray was pressed into service to preserve the carpet from drips...the windows were opened for ventialtion...the tank was filled and ignition applied to the glowplug. The engine started in a most satisfactory manner, and all appeared to be well. So the engine was stopped and the model inspected...this had been quite loud, despite the silencer, and odd bods arrived to see what was going on. Of course, a second run had to be undertaken......

This time, the engine backfired and a small flame was ignited in the drips in the tin tray....this spread across the tray surface and blowing at it didn't seem to help. By this time, the undersurface of the model was well alight, tissue, balsa wood and cellulose dope being readily inflammable....so an attempt was made to smother the flames using the bedspread.

Now we had the tray on fire, the model on fire and the bedspread on fire too...this had all happened in a matter of seconds, and the carpet didn't look too clever either! Only one thing to be done...get it OUT OF THE WINDOW!!! Bundling up the whole sorry affair in the smouldering bedspread, it was pushed out of the window....where it stuck fast, and ignited the curtains....by this time there was lots of smoke....finally the remains of the model was pushed through the window using a handy clothes horse, and a look out the window showed it burning harmlessly in the snow outside. The carpet was dealt with by stamping out the burning bits.

Phew!! Got away with it!! Just need to tidy up and do a bit of cleaning and....ah.......what's that? Sounds like fire engines.....

One helpful chap had picked up a telephone and reported that an aeroplane had crashed behind the Officer's Mess. This brought the Station Fire Plan into action, which resulted in every fire appliance in Cambridge and the surrounding retained brigades turning out....there were fire appliances queued up the road as far as the eye could see....and Moley had an interesting chat with the Chief Fire Officer for Cambridge...and later on with the Wing Commander (Admin)....

MPN11
18th Mar 2014, 15:03
Nice one, Moley :D

Pom Pax
18th Mar 2014, 15:03
The first time I saw a bone dome, it was being worn by Mike Hawthorn in practice on Thursday for the sports car race at the Daily Express International Trophy meeting in May 1956 at Silverstone. I later overheard someone ask him what it was and he replied that somebody at Farnborough had asked him to try it out. Me the clever clogs spotter had already worked that out as I had seen him take it off to reveal a standard issue R.A.F. cloth flying helmet underneath.
I think us students at Thorney were issued bone domes in the Autumn of 1967, at first just for use in the NF 10 Vampires. The fitting session was a very serious affair supervised by the SMO, we told not to scatch or deface them in any way. Next everyone had to have them, to be worn for take offs and landings in the Varsities and Valettas. Then take them back to flight safety to be fitted with visors. Shortly afterwards they were all recalled and we were reissued with new ones with smokey visors. It appeared that the fitting of visors had to be a factory job not on site but when we got the new ones the SMO was not required. If this farce occurred through out the service, it effectively doubled the MOD's order.

Danny42C
18th Mar 2014, 16:25
MPN11,

First, thanks for welcoming the return of the Prodigal Son (or the bad penny, whichever way you look at it !).

(Shrewd suspicion that Arthur not quite on the ball: needs to sharpen up: probably had safety catch on first time, invented story of dud round to explain delay. Memo: keep eye on Arthur; W.O. i/c Armoury to give Arthur further instruction on Verey pistol - in Arthur's own time , that is.)

Couldn't have had a better illustration of my words of wisdom: "This incident reinforced my experience that every emergency system should be tested at least weekly, or it'll surely fail on the day"....D.

Molemot,

What was the score on Mess Bill ? One complete room redecorated; one pair curtains; one Carpet, one Bedspread, (Junior Officers for the Use Of) - beer money for the month down the pan :(, I'll be bound.......D

Cheers, Danny.

Fareastdriver
18th Mar 2014, 16:34
Helmet boxes wre the thing to have. AThey wbout a foot square and for the Support Helicopter force they were magic. When out in the sticks under canvas they were the ideal bedside table where you could tuck away your things so that they would not be attacked by the local crawlies.

About 1974 they took them all away and replaced them with poofy cloth bags Protests were overridden and they all disappeared.

Later we had an exercise that encompassed Salisbury Plain and the surrounding area. I selected Keevil as our location because we could break into old brick buildings and stay dry and also the helicopters could hide very successfully in concrete scrim. This was very successful as the entire RAF reconnaisance organisation failed to find us by IR or visually day or night.

Whilst I was there I had a wander around and there was a spares organisation that I cannot remember the name of that had a hanger full off aircraft spares, mostly ex RAF. There were three airworthy Goblin engines, loads of ground equipment and against one wall there was an enormous pile of helmet boxes.

It took me less then two minutes to find my old one and when I held it up the chap in charge just waved it away.

Owing to various happenings in the preceding years my helmet was not on my flying clothing card so after I retired it continued doing what it was designed to do.

blind pew
19th Mar 2014, 11:19
Danny

Yes 3 grand was a lot to loose but two were supposedly restored by a garage in Wickford (Essex of course) and the third I paid for a bare metal respray.
The two were air freighted to Geneva at my expense. Foolishly I trusted the guys after explaining the problems of restoring old cars (I had done a couple of S types in the 70s to help the budget as BEA paid peanuts).
One of the guys spent CHF 4000 on getting the car through the Swiss MOT...difficult to get any english motor oil tight as I found our with a Perkins 4108 on my yacht. He then drove it to Zurich and had enough.
Yes you are right about the consumption of the Bristol..I towed a Phoebus C glider down to the Pyrenees a few years ago average 8.5 mpg.

Re the control line aeroplane fire...I grew up in a prefab opposite Rochford (sarfend now) airport...the eldest of three so a bit of a dogs body...mum cooking a pan of chips in lard and I was asked to make the tea...as a nine year old it was a stretch to reach the kettle which was on top of the eye level grill...water splashed into chip pan which boiled over. Fat ignited with flames up to the ceiling.Mum opened back door, grabbed pan and threw it out then yanked down burning net curtains which followed the pan.
So it was mashed spuds for tea.
:)

cockney steve
19th Mar 2014, 13:49
So many hilarious tales ! Loved Molemot's and MP's tales of derring-do!

IIRC, tha Bond "C" (narrow, rounded nose, projecting front wings with headlights in the ends) was 150cc Villiers -powered.....You did, indeed, have the ability to lift the bonnet, poke your boot in and kick-start it.

The later twins had the flatter front with the wide-mouth grille in anodised alloy....these had the Dynastart.

the complete engine, transmission, exhaust and wheel were mounted on a sort of Gimbal-ring....A certain chap of my aquaintance, would be in traffic-lights on Southend hHigh Street...Observing through the mirror, that the following driver was distracted, he'd spin the steering wheel and the Bond would chug round within it's own length, whereupon the occupants would make unambiguous gestures to the attractive female Pax they were now facing...another dip io the clutch and they would be facing forward again, much amusement being had from the reactions behind!.....there was a stop, but the lock on the Bond was well over 180*

Isetta and Heinkel, the latter had a roomier cabin, being somewhat more elongated than the Isetta (latter was built in Isle of Man, under license for a few years!) The twin wheels, IIRC, were spaced at less than 10" centres, to classify as a single.....the pedestrian milk-floats, contrilled by a "broom handle" sticking out front, had a similar arrangement.

It helped grip and made tyre-wear acceptable.
Messerschmitt was 200cc Sachs-powered, gearchange was a bowden-cable operated, positive-stop motorcycle one, so the lever sprang to the middle of the slot after each (hand) change,...Steering was like a kid's toy pedal-car..a peg at right-angles to the column's axis, engaged an eye in the tie-bar....the "droopy moustache" ivory plastic handlebar was around 1/4 turn, lock to lock. It was certainly an "interesting" experience!

Popular lergend had it that the hardtop's bubble and windscreen were actually from the Messerschmitt fighter...the whole thing hinged sideways to enter. I knew an owner...built a little shed for his, drove right in,one day,then remembered the reason why he always disembarked and pushed it under cover......unfortunately,the battery was U/s...Neighbours out, he spent several hours contemplating the little car and it's shelter :)

ValMORNA
19th Mar 2014, 21:08
Post-RAF service I became a civilian wireless operator (later termed Radio Officer, but no extra pay or perks) at a station in North Staffs. At one stage we had two chaps on our watch who became 'car' owners, one with an H and t'other with an M. The H owner drove home off one night shift (10 p.m.) straight into his carport with the obvious result - couldn't open the 'front door' so had to wait for a kindly passer-by. The rest of us travelled by coach except one individual (Mac) who, on fine days, used one of those cycles with a motor driving directly onto the rear tyre, as mentioned in previous posts.

Danny42C
19th Mar 2014, 22:34
Fareastdriver,

Another very useful issue was the pilots' Parachute Bag. Big, tough, brown, canvas holdall, zip round three sides, could be packed till almost spherical and still zip-up, go anywhere in the aircraft, used to carry anything (inc live dogs). On very rare occasions used for parachutes.

Never wore a bone dome. Were they as uncomfortable as they look ?....D.


blind pew,

Horror follows horror ! If CHF4000 means what I think it means, someone was paying ca £2,000 for putting a thing though Swiss MOT that cost me £199 new in '50. Have we all gone mad ?

True, true - we had to wait for the Japanese to teach us how to build oiltight engines.

Oh, the old chip-pan fire again ! Your: "Mum opened back door, grabbed pan and threw it out" (Standard reaction, usually ends in A&E) . Correct action: Grab tea towel, soak under tap (or dunk in sink), fling wet over pan on stove, put gas out. Curtains ? - in sink ! About one in a million Mums have a Fire Blanket on the kitchen wall. Your Mum was lucky !....D.


cockney steve,

They must have bust the string ! Even my Model A had the cable-and-hand-pull I've described. But I suppose you could take the kickstart crank off and refit it back to "kick" - but you'd need to be careful. If your boot slipped, there wouldn't be much clearance between the metal body top and your vitals ! :=

Yes, the same on the Meteor T7. The thing swung sideways over you with a deathly clang.....D.

Cheers, all. Danny.

ricardian
19th Mar 2014, 23:49
ValMORNA said Post-RAF service I became a civilian wireless operator (later termed Radio Officer, but no extra pay or perks) at a station in North Staffs.
Lovely old CSOS Cheadle (aka Woodhead Hall). Spent a couple of years there in the early 1970s after leaving the RAF and spending a few months at Bletchley before getting married and moving north to Brora which was, allegedly, a "punishment posting" until the powers-that-be realised that everybody who was sent there stayed there until retirement.

Madbob
20th Mar 2014, 11:23
Danny

All depended on the shape of your head! There was a Sikh corporal at North Luffenham who fitted me with my first helmet, a Mk. 3 C with dual visors in 1979. The only problem was that he insisted on giving me a Medium one.:eek::eek:

It was agony! After only a short time I had a splitting headache. Happily I was re-issued a Medium Broad and it was fine. The only gripe was its weight. Under high g it was a pain, literally. This I think was why some pilots (certainly in the Air Defence world) preferred using their old Mk. 1A's with cloth inner......

Another downside (at least for the Mk.3) was that the ear seals were filled with fluid rather than foam, supposedly for better hearing protection. I had a seal burst and it was like having a nosebleed.

The real advantage of any helmet though is the birdstrike/wind blast protection the visors are supposed to offer and (in a dual control aircraft) when the hands-on pilot makes a sudden aileron input you find your head "lagging" the roll and hitting the side of the canopy! Without the helmet it could hurt.

MB

Danny42C
20th Mar 2014, 15:28
blind pew,

My apologies for my #5319! Of course the £199 relates to my Bond - we were talking about Isettas ! ("Senior Moments" we call them - I get quite a lot lately). Never did find out what Isettas cost new, around £8-9,000, I think, and you could buy a lot of proper car for that.....D.

Madbob,

Looks as if I was just as well off with my old leather and cloth, tropical, headgear. And you could screw them up in any old corner when not in use ! As for the birdies, the armoured glass front panel stopped most things...D.

Thanks, both. Danny.

mikehallam
20th Mar 2014, 17:45
BTW,

The 'BMW' Isetta was actually of innovative Italian design & manufactured there by the Iso company.
B.Emm took a licence, replacing the Iso engine with their own four-stroke.

So, a) It was not of teutonic design & b) German engines clearly leaked too.

As for the Messerschmitt, the only fighter components were the draughtsmanship of the a/c factory who turned a crude original concept by Fritz Fend into a practical machine. In this case powered by an Austrian, Sachs two-stroke engine of ~192 cc.

The German & U.K. Clubs are very active offering spares and rallies, with a strong folllowing in N.America too.

mikehallam.

Geriaviator
20th Mar 2014, 18:53
May I recall the Nobel 200, reputedly based on the German Fuldamobil? It was assembled from various components in Belfast in the early 1960s, a venture not unconnected with the generous grants available to manufacturing at that time. The usual sequel was when the grants ran out, so did the recipients ...

Anyway the horrid little car on its tiny wheels was powered, if that's the word, by a 200cc Sachs two-stroke which could be started by key to run in either direction, giving it four speeds forward and four reverse. This opened interesting if disastrous possibilities, some of which transpired.

The last one I saw was in central Belfast, blazing merrily. Apparently a leaking carb had dribbled onto the hot exhaust pipe, but nobody heeded the clouds of blue smoke as this was quite normal for the two-stroke Sachs. It was indeed bad luck for the owner, as the exhaust pipe could be relied upon to fall off every 20 miles, a serendipitous if unintended safety feature.

Haraka
20th Mar 2014, 19:23
I do remember the case of the proud new owner of an Isetta who drove it down the sloping ramp to his garage ,said garage having an up and over door.
Proud owner then tried to get out of the Isetta via the cars opening "front " door- which was unfortunately right up close to the garage door and wouldn't open more than a couple of inches.
Now finding that he was trapped in the bubble car, he then also realised that
it had no reverse gear.

Eventually his wife came home........

MPN11
20th Mar 2014, 19:30
FYI, the length of the typical OMQ garage was about 2" less than the LOA of a Jaguar XJ6. A strip of carpet nailed in the appropriate place on the end wall ensured you could (nervously) nudge up against it and then close the up-and-over door :cool:

Fareastdriver
20th Mar 2014, 19:52
Yes, the same on the Meteor T7. The thing swung sideways over you with a deathly clang.....D.

I always started the starboard engine on a Meteor first. That way if the engine caught fire the canopy shielded you from the conflagation as you vaulted out of the cockpit.

ValMORNA
20th Mar 2014, 21:33
Ricardian


Our paths would not have crossed then, as I was in Hong Kong 1969-75, not exactly a punishment posting.

ricardian
20th Mar 2014, 23:43
Valmorns said Our paths would not have crossed then, as I was in Hong Kong 1969-75, not exactly a punishment posting.

No, I was at Cheadle 1973-76, Brora 76-82, Scarborough 82-92, Cheltenham 92-99 and Scarborough again 99-03 after which we moved up to Stronsay. Several visits to RAF Digby, HMS Mercury, Northwood etc

Danny42C
20th Mar 2014, 23:47
It must have been in the hard (but not as hard as '62/3) winter of '63/4. There had been a dump of snow, then a "high" had settled; the roads were hard packed snow and very icy. I fired up the Isetta (never any trouble) in the freezing dawn, huddled into my greatcoat and set off from Breighton. The first few miles were over country lanes until I turned onto the A19 at Escrick.

However, I'd been driving it for a few months now and was quite confident in the thing. There was no traffic on the lanes, I happily four-wheel-drifted round the bends, reached the A19 which was "black-top" (so no trouble through York - or on the other side) until I turned off for Linton-on-Ouse, on the back roads again for the last lap.

All went well until I got to Newton. There is a long, straight village street, and at the end a solid stone wall and a right angle bend over the old stream bridge. The weak winter sun had warmed the street a little. There was an evil glitter on it. Better be careful now. :*

I left the brakes alone, but played scales on the gearbox to use the back end as a sea-anchor. We'd slowed almost to walking pace as I was coming up to the bend. I tapped the brakes, and gingerly turned the wheel. The car stopped dead in its tracks - then started to rotate, quite slowly and smoothly, clockwise.

Only once had this happened to me before - in winter '47, late at night I'd stopped my old wreck at a traffic signal in Southport. Luckily there was nothing else about, but the thing had kept spinning for quite some time. This time I think I'd gone round once, and was just starting on the second turn. Over the bridge came a J2 RAF van. :mad:

He was travelling slowly and carefully, but braking action was about nil, neither of us could do anything about it. It wasn't much of a bang, but he punted me right across the road before we stopped and were able to get out (very precariously !) and assess damage. The J2 was unharmed - only a bit of my paint on the offside front bumper which had punched into my port quarter. But, although there was a fair dent, it was my lucky day, too - I'd taken it on the one spot of the bodywork which caused hardly any internal damage at all. And mechanically it was still perfect.

Once he'd assured himself that his J2 was all right, the MT driver's only concern was that I might try for damages from the RAF, but I calmed him, pointing out what was obvious - in the conditions it was a pure accident and nobody's fault; no claim could possibly succeed.

Most ironic of all: it was our ATC van, carrying an ATC crew out to the tower at Rufforth, which was used as a RLG for Linton. (Supplementary question: who provided the crash vehicles there ? - certainly not me). And of course there wasn't any point in their going out at all - Linton may have been fit to fly later that day, but Rufforth certainly wouldn't have been. I suppose it had been a case of no one with the nous to say "Stay where you are !" till after Briefing. When we'd disentangled ourselves, they continued on their way and I carried on to Linton.

"You're late!", said SATCO accusingly. "Yes, Sir", I said brightly: "I've just had a crash with our J2 on the way here". He turned pale (Command were very hot on road traffic accidents after the previous winter's woeful toll). I did my best to assure him that his precious J2 was unmarked (he wasn't in the least worried about me), but even so he insisted on my completing an MT Accident Report (Form ???). When asked on it to state my speed, I waggishly wrote: "Forward speed - Nil, Rotational speed - about 4 rpm". As I heard no more about it, I suppose that ended in the bin.

Bubwith village garage pulled out the dent, but a lot of paint came with it. In my garage there was a hardly touched can of some pale buff gloss enamel left behind some years before. I spent a happy couple of hours of unskilful brush work on the Isetta; it wasn't exactly in concours condition but good enough - and I even remembered to tell the Licencing Authority !

Goodnight, all.

Danny.


" It is better to travel hopefully than to arrive".

Danny42C
21st Mar 2014, 16:57
Haraka,

IIRC, all BMW Isettas had 4-speed + Rev in a "gated" box on your right (like the old racing cars). But it might have been one of the others (like the original Italian "Isos") that had a combined m/cycle engine/positive-stop gearbox , no reverse in that (until the 2-way ignition switch - which was really a counsel of despair - came in. Bond went for that, and others).

Whichever, he didn't have to wait for his wife. His escape route was over his head - out the sunroof ! :rolleyes:


MPN11,

I think you mean that the garage was 3in more than the XJ6 (bloated plutocrat !!). I've done the same with a length of thick plank.

Nitpickers of the world, unite !.... Danny.

Warmtoast
21st Mar 2014, 21:44
Danny42C

Earlier you recorded your experience with your purchase of your Peugeot 403 for use in Germany in the 1960’s. Here’s my experience of tax and duty-free car purchases when I was posted to JHQ Rheindahlen in the early 1970’s.

I was vaguely aware of the tax and duty-free shopping privileges available in Germany, but decided I’d make use of the UK’s Personal Export Scheme to buy a new car before I departed for Germany, so I sold my trusty Ford Anglia to a neighbour and with the proceeds had enough cash to put towards a new car.

At the time (late 1971) I wasn’t totally au-fait with the car purchase situation for Germany so was tempted enough to take advantage of the UK’s Personal Export Scheme whereby one bought a car in the UK without Purchase Tax provided one exported it permanently within a certain time (about three months I think) after purchase. With a young family and having examined the market and taken advice from friends, a new Austin Maxi 1750cc with rear seats that folded down to a bed seemed to be an ideal family car. So I went ahead and purchased a new Maxi as a personal export vehicle, paying the princely sum of £837 pounds i.e. UK price less Purchase Tax. I exported it in January 1971 and this car served me and the family well for our initial two years in Germany, but in 1974 knowing I’d be returning to the UK in mid-1975 decided that a new and up-market car at a BFG Tax and Duty free price would be a sensible long-term choice — the only stipulation to importing into the UK at the end of one’s tour without paying tax etc. was that it had to be registered in one’s name and be more than one-year old. No problems with this, as when I returned to the UK a year later I would meet these HM Customs’ requirements, and so it was.

At Rheindahlen one was spoilt for choice when buying a new car as on Saturdays the environs of the JHQ NAAFI and the car park outside were filled with a plethora of car dealers all after one’s custom.

Having taken to camping in a big way in the first two years of our tour in Germany, an estate car with plenty of room would tick all the boxes, so I arranged a test drive of a Volvo estate. The dealer was very generous and allowed one to drive around for half-a-day — and I was hooked. A Volvo 145 Estate it was to be. Altogether it cost me the equivalent to £1,300 sterling.

Despite the relatively low price, all car prices whether British, German and French or others included a “delivery” charge and for Volvos from Sweden to Germany the delivery charges were a bit on the steep side. After forty-years I can’t remember exactly what it was, but the dealer did suggest an alternative where one could take personal delivery at Volvo’s plant in Gothenburg in Sweden. Having done the sums it was clear that the cost of a railway journey from Moenchengladbach to Gothenburg plus the cost of a hotel and fuel for the return would be cheaper than paying the relatively steep “delivery charge”. So I opted for a “personal” collection from Volvo in Sweden. This was a relatively simple process. I paid a deposit to the dealer and he placed the order with Volvo. All that was necessary then was to get a bankers draft payable to Volvo for the balance from the bank where I banked in Germany (Rheindahlen’s Commerzbank). A copy of the BFG registration document as arranged in advance with the BFG licensing authorities, a green (insurance) card, BFG number plates, a GB sticker
and that was it.

The train journey from Moenchengladbach was via Hamburg (change), Copenhagen (change) and then direct to Gothenburg. The timetable showed I could leave Moenchengladbach in the evening, change late at night at Hamburg and catch the overnight train to Denmark arriving at Copenhagen very early in the morning. At Copenhagen one caught the first early morning train to Gothenburg. In those days international trains were conveyed by the ferry across the water, the passenger railway carriages were driven onto the ferry and driven off at the destination terminal, a new locomotive was attached and the journey continued to the destination. There was no way, except in an emergency of getting off the carriage whilst it was on the ferry, just stay in the carriage for the ferry crossing and it all worked well.

The journey from Germany to Sweden involved two sea crossings: The first from Hamburg to Copenhagen was the Puttgarden (Germany) and Røby (Denmark) ferry, the second from Copenhagen to Gothenburg with the ferry over the Øresund from Kronborg (Helsingør) in Denmark to Helsingborg in Sweden.

The Hamburg – Copenhagen train was overnight in a carriage with couchettes. The journey was relatively short and although the train arrived in Copenhagen at about 05.00, one was allowed to stay in the carriage until about 06.30 or so which allowed for breakfast in the station buffet before boarding the onward connection for Gothenburg in Sweden that left at 07.34.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/CopenhagenStation_zps9d1d938b.jpg

This shows the 07:34 Stockholm and Gothenburg train (“The Vikingen”) waiting at Copenhagen to depart for Gothenburg.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/TrainjoiningFerry1_zpse095bcb4.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/TrainCarriageonFerry-KronborgCastleBackground_zps54888060.jpg

The ferry on the Øresund from Kronborg (Helsingør) in Denmark to Helsingborg in Sweden.

I’d been instructed to ring Volvo’s Tourist Delivery Centre when the train arrived at Gothenburg and they responded by sending a car to collect me from the station and take me to Volvo’s Tourist Delivery Centre. Volvo’s delivery service worked well and the formalities were dealt with efficiently.
The banker’s draft was handed over, documents checked etc and the BFG number plates and GB sticker affixed. This took a little while but the icing on the cake, and totally unexpected was that Volvo had arranged a free overnight stay in a Gothenburg hotel which allowed for a bit of sightseeing and the chance to have a good Swedish meal (with fish of course!). So the next day after an early breakfast I departed Gothenburg south towards Copenhagen (200-miles) my next planned night stop.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/VolvoTrouristDeliveryCentre1974_zps508f7f20.jpg
Taking delivery of my new Volvo at the Volvo Tourist Delivery Centre.

I took delivery in June. The weather was absolutely gorgeous and being mid-summer I was pleasantly surprised by the strong sunlight and almost Mediterranean look of the Kattegat as I travelled south down the west coast of Sweden to Helsingborg to take the car-ferry back over the Øresund to Helsingør in Denmark.

The west coast of Sweden had absolutely stunning scenery as seen below.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/WestCoastofSweden1_zps70eba90e.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/WestCoastofSweden_zpsfa65efd3.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/NewVolvoinSwedenJune1974_zps581f0872.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/BusyOslashresund_zpsaa2ea049.jpg

In 1974 the Sweden to Denmark ferries over the Øresund were reputed to be the busiest in the world, probably right as my photo shows.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/OslashresundampHelsingoslashr-KronborgCastle_zps19640e73.jpg

One of the sights from the ferry as one approached the ferry terminal at Helsingør in Denmark is Kronborg Castle, made famous as Elsinore castle in Shakespeare’s Hamlet.

One of our friends at JHQ was formerly with the DA’s staff at our Copenhagen embassy and knowing I was to visit Copenhagen made some useful suggestions about what I should do and see whilst I was there. So having booked into a motel in Copenhagen I went into town and did the usual tourist attractions like the Little Mermaid in Copenhagen Harbour and Copenhagen’s Tivoli Gardens.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/LittleMermaid2_zps8cc78092.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/CopenhagenTivoliGarden_zpsc872f1d5.jpg

The other strong recommendation was to visit the Viking Ship Museum which overlooks the nearby Roskilde Fjord. This was a fascinating place with the remains of various Viking longships. The museum building itself was a “brutalist” modern concrete structure alongside the water which didn’t appeal at all, but the contents were fabulous. To see (and touch) the wooden remains of five Viking longships that had been sailed by the Vikings nearly a thousand years earlier is one of my better museum experiences.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/IMG_0355_zpsd65e319a.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/IMG_0356_zps3f309830.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/IMG_0357_zps70e4e472.jpg

The Viking Ship Museum was built in 1969 especially to exhibit the five newly discovered ships. In the late 1990s excavations for an expansion of the museum uncovered the remains of a further nine ships including at 37 metres the longest Viking warship ever discovered.

It just so happens that the surviving timbers of this 37-metre longship are at the centre of the just opened “Vikings – Life and Legend” exhibition that runs from 6 March – 22 June 2014 at the British Museum. Due to its scale and fragility it would not have been possible to display this ship at the British Museum without the new facilities of the Sainsbury Exhibitions Gallery — so if in London, well worth a visit.

Another early start the next day for the nearly 500-miles journey from Copenhagen to Moenchengladbach. This involved another ferry crossing from Røby to Puttgarden, another busy ferry route (one every 30-minutes), back in 1974 there was no need to make a reservation; one turned up, paid for the crossing and caught the next ferry – simple! As before the car ferry also transported railway wagons, in the opposite direction to what I’d done two days before!

Having landed in Germany I used the BFG Petrol Coupons to fill up cheaply and from there onwards it was mainly Autobahn all the way back to Moenchengladbach.

On arrival at MG the car was just about run-in and ready for its first service.

Postscript
In the 1960’s service personnel all over the world took advantage of the duty-free or availability of cheap cars (compared to the relatively highly taxed price of car in the UK). Whilst I was with 99 Sqn (Britannias) from 1959-1963 I remember the many occasions when we flew back to the UK in a freight or Pax/freight role and offered the empty freight space to Air Movements at Changi or Khormaksar. They in turn would regularly put a couple of servicemen’s private cars aboard as “indulgence” freight. In Germany of course most would drive their cars back to the UK.

Today apart from the rump of what’s left of the British Forces' presence in Germany who I assume still have duty-free privileges and possibly Cyprus I’m not sure how many overseas postings offer the chance to buy a car cheaply.

The just published annual report of The Service Children’s Education (SCE) has an interesting map showing the location of service schools worldwide. So if there are schools, there are children and parents, and parents with children normally equate to a family with a car. As the attached map shows, Germany and Cyprus are the major locations with families living locally.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/SCESchools2014_zps83d1535f.jpg


More to follow

Warmtoast
21st Mar 2014, 22:08
BFG Duty Free Car Purchase - Continued

Anyway back to the 1970’s.

The Austin Maxi did well in Germany and beyond. Here it is as we went south to Italy in our first year in Germany (1971).

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/MAXI_zps2c3295b7.jpg

This Volvo served us very well too. I also bought a trailer tent and toured (camped) the continent extensively; Germany of course, Holland, France, Austria, Switzerland and Italy. Camping in Italy provided the best family holidays ever.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/SanBernadinoPass_zpsb9487bd2.jpg
Going down into Italy over the San Bernadino pass with a four-mile-long tunnel at the highest point. Cloudy, damp and cold as one entered the tunnel on the north side, only to emerge on the south side into warm and sunny weather - brilliant!

As the views below show, Switzerland provided the most spectacular scenery anywhere I’ve been in the world.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/VolvoonLakeLucerne_zps8cc6fe6f.jpg

The Volvo parked by the lake was on Lake Lucerne, (in German: Vierwaldstättersee, “Lake of the Four Forested Cantons”) in Switzerland not far from TellsKappelle. The TellsKapelle (“Tell’s chapel”) is located on the shore of Lake Lucerne and marks the site where according to legend, William Tell (he of the shooting an apple off his son’s head fame) initiated the rebellion that led to the foundation of the Old Swiss Confederacy back in the 14th century. Also a little further along the lakeside is the town of Fluelen where my wife, following graduation from cookery school, worked as an under-chef at a hotel. So we had to visit that too.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/WilliamTellExpress2_zps69454d6a.jpg
The William Tell Express paddle steamer plied its way along the towns on the edge of Lake Lucerne

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/VierwaldstaumltterseefromRigi_zps39ecfc2d.jpg

View of the lake from Mount Pilatus (2,128 m) a mountain overlooking Lake Lucerne. The summit is reached by a cog-wheel railway.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/RIGIMountainShot_zpsee40fc12.jpg
The Rigi is another mountain summit that is reached by cog railway, again with spectacular views.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/CampinginItaly_zpse4750598.jpg
Camping in Italy near Venice

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/Camping-Mosel_zpsccb5a956.jpg
Week-end camping visit alongside the river Mosel in Germany. Trailer-tent in use c/w built-in sink and two-ring gas stove. The tent could unfolded and erected in minutes - wonderful!

Fareastdriver
22nd Mar 2014, 09:01
1959-1963 I remember the many occasions when we flew back to the UK in a freight or Pax/freight role and offered the empty freight space to Air Movements at Changi or Khormaksar. They in turn would regularly put a couple of servicemen’s private cars aboard as “indulgence” freight

Apparantly tthe Royal Navy also extended this facility. One of Her Majesty's finest aircraft carriers was steaming across the Indian Ocean with several indulgence cars in the hangers. There then arose a slight diplomatic emergency in Brunie.

Nice Ford Zodiac....Splash. Shame about the MGA....Splash. Big Mercedes Splash.

No comeback, no insurance.

Wander00
22nd Mar 2014, 11:36
We still use the Puttgarden -Røby ferry when we drive to our son's in Copenhagen - there are rumours that replacement with a bridge is being considered. However, there is an interesting story about the Oresund bridge between Copenhagen and Malmo. Prostitution, or at least "employing" a prostitute is illegal in Sweden, so at night the Oresund bridge is busy with Swedes travelling to Denmark for that purpose.


The Roskilde museum is brilliant, and the replica long-ship built there was subject of a TV programme last year as it was sailed back to Dublin, where its predecessor had been built 1000years before

Danny42C
22nd Mar 2014, 20:59
Warmtoast,

What a wonderful group of holiday snaps ! And a lovely pic of the Mosel vineyard slopes. The Mosel valley was quite handy for Geilenkirchen, and their wine was one of our favourites. Little shop in town sold it at Dm2 a bottle (10 pfennig back on the bottle). In winter we used to leave it on outside kitchen windowsill to cool. Delicious !

I think the Import regulations must have relaxed between our dates. I believe the two year-rule was in force throughout our tour ('60/'62). This meant that if we wanted to change cars (as you did), we had to do it in our first year. The 404 had been announced a fortnight after I got my 403 (and I could have got a Coupleur Jaeger on the 404, too). But the German agent now wanted £100 plus my 403, and I reckoned that too much...D.

Danny42C
24th Mar 2014, 00:00
MPN11,

I have been meaning for some time to return at greater length to the subject of the cavalier way in which you were "withdrawn" ("flung off" might have been a better expression) from flying training in the Navy. You gave the full, sad details last December, (in your #4733 p.237), but briefly I recall that, after some 30 hrs (and a PPL) on nosewheels, you had trouble with the Tiger (who didn't ?)

Let's look at what we all know. This "Twin-Winged-Lord-of-the-Air" idea is nonsense. Any fool can fly an aeroplane in the air (and many fools do). Aeroplane flies itself quite well without much (or any) help from you. You merely have to learn two tricks - a little one and a big one. Little one is to get it off the ground into the air (which amounts to giving it "welly" and keeping it straight). Big one is to put it back again (in one piece if possible).

There are only two ways to do this. The old (tail-dragger) way, in which you (hopefully) have arranged affairs so that it gives up the unequal struggle with gravity not more than a couple of feet above ground and flops down more or less where you want it (this was called "Landing"). It was also called a "three-pointer", or "daisy-cutter"; it looked very nice when you managed to do it properly and you felt well pleased with yourself.

Or the new (nosewheel) way, in which you fly it onto (into ?) the Runway (or whatever), secure in the knowledge that any remaining lift will disappear as the nosewheel goes down (this is called "Landing",too, but it ain't). Even in the old way there were times when you couldn't quite pull it off, and had to push it hard down on the wheels to keep it there till it slowed down (this was called "Doing a Wheeler", and generally deprecated as sloppy flying).

When it came to the Great Changeover in the '50s, the transit (for me) after 600 hrs taildragging to the New Way (Meteor 7) was easy. "Just do wheelers !" said my QFI. So I did.

But transit back from New to Old was much harder. Geriaviator records (and my own experience bears out, after only 16 hrs "New") that all FJs had trouble with the Tiger at first. Why would you not, after your first 30 hours all on nosewheels ? Paradoxically, you might've stood a better chance if you'd never flown at all before ! They should have given you much more time - was there a War on ? I reckon you were unfairly treated.

Look at it from the Navy's point of view. Here you have a keen and willing youngster. He's got himself a gliding B Licence (and you don't "three-point" a glider), he'd joined the ATC Cadets and put his back into it to the extent of being awarded a Flying Scholarship. Thirty hours nearly all nosewheel later he's got a PPL. Isn't he exactly the kind of Right Stuff the Navy should be looking for ? What next ?

At this stage the Navy's got rid of its last carrier tail-dragging piston (Sea Fury retired '55 [Wiki], now it's '62). Every operational aircraft he'll fly in years to come will be a nosewheel. So what do their Lordships give him to fly now ? This old pterodactyl, for pity's sake ! Essentially a domesticated version of "Biggles's" 1917 Camel, the Tiger Moth had trained thousands of lads (who'd mostly never been in the air in their lives before) to fly in the Old Way. These would later fly the Spitfires and Hurricanes which saved Britain in '40, and the Lancasters and Halifaxes which were Harris's bludgeons of the Third Reich in '42-'44.

All these were tail-draggers. Now the Tiger had done its work; nearly all stations had their "pet" Tiger in a hangar, to be brought out to provide great fun on sunny afternoons.

The Jet Provost had come into service in the RAF in '58 (Wiki). Four years before. Couldn't the Navy get hold of even a dozen (everyone else in the world seems to have been able to get some) ? Seemingly not. They put their chap in a Tiger: he struggled: they scrubbed him. Doesn't make much sense, does it ?

Funny Post (hopefully) next time....Danny.

mmitch
24th Mar 2014, 10:22
Danny. You may have read that even experienced FJ pilots joining the BBMF have to have about 5 hours on Chipmunks and the same on Harvards before flying the Hurricane and then later the Spitfire.
mmitch.

MPN11
24th Mar 2014, 10:41
Danny42C ... how kind, Sir :ok:

I do take the point that it might have been better if I hadn't logged those 30 hours with a nose wheel. Indeed, the Piper Colt was so easy to fly (5:35 to first solo) and vice-free (we had to do 30 minutes in a Chipmunk [G-AOFF in my case] doing proper stalls and spins and a touch of aeros) that it was hardly a challenging introduction to the wonders of flight!

However, I'm sure the RN had their reasons. We were allocated 12 hours on the Tiger Moth to demonstrate we had the ability to be taught, and if it had been as easy as the Colt it wouldn't have proved a lot! I might have done better with a non-screaming Instructor, as noted in that previous post, but I have learned to live with the bottom line ... I wasn't really that good, and the RN had more promising material to work with :cool:

Looking forward to your next instalment, O Burner of the Midnight Oil.

ValMORNA
24th Mar 2014, 21:51
Chugalug, Danny and smujsmith,

Re my #5279, thank you for your valued comments. I have been searching my memory (I'm surprised I remembered that much!) to check where 'my' aircraft flew from. The Dakota was fitted out for the para role (seats down the side) and parked on the field were a number of wartime gliders - Horsa, IIRC. I have a photo of me proudly standing in front of one Dak. But where was it? Lost in the mists of time. The Lincoln, airfield unknown, but a clue may be that one of them had the code LS-D and a photo of this one should be among my possessions, as is a picture of the assembled 304 Squadron cadets in front of one. The Dominie - first RAF aircraft I flew in - and Washington trips have self-erased from my data bank, although I remember going down the tubular tunnel into the B29 rear gunner's position.
Sat at the WOP's position in a Wellington but unfortunately it was stationary on the ground. RAF Swinderby.

Soon, first instalment of my RAF career.
___
HM ('More to follow', IIRC. Ignore if incorrect as it'll make no sense)

Danny42C
24th Mar 2014, 22:03
mmitch,

And quite right, too. The old tail-dragger landing technique was an entirely different animal. It was fine so long as you'd had to do it from your very first day, as all we WWII pilots had done, and we'd just grown up with it, it was second nature to us.

In MPN11's case, if the Navy wanted tailwheel pilots (which they didn't) for the carriers, then starting them on a Tiger made sense. As they didn't, they should have used the Jet Provost like everybody else. Was the RAF using the Tiger in the primary trainer role as late as '62 ?

Danny

Warmtoast
24th Mar 2014, 22:25
Danny

if the Navy wanted tailwheel pilots (which they didn't)

Don't forget the Navy flew Supermarine Attackers in the 1950's as witness this one I photographed at Biggin Hill's 1954 ROC "Recognition Day".

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Biggin%20Hill%20Early%201950s/RNFord-BasedAttacker.jpg

Danny42C
24th Mar 2014, 23:05
It really all happened so simply and so easily. It was a nice sunny Spring day, and I was running back to York at lunchtime off morning watch. Nothing unusual until I passed Bootham Bar, then suddenly there seemed to much less traffic than normal, and there were several police cars dotted about.

Following my usual route I turned right towards the Museum Garden gates, then left into Lendal. On the corner there was a handful of chatting police doing nothing in particular. Nobody took any notice of me, or put a hand up to stop me, and I'm certain there were no "No Entry" signs. Into Lendal I tootled. This was very familiar ground; "Lloyds-the- Money" on the right and the GPO down the end.

Fifty yards ahead came out from the left, and turned left ahead of me, a large old gleaming black Roller (later I learned it was the Lord Mayor's car). I tucked in behind it and looked through the wide back window. Dead centre was a huge full- bottomed wig above scarlet and ermine. Behind me a white police Jaguar closed in, leading another two or three police cars and sundry followers. It was, it seemed the Opening of the Assizes, and I had inadvertently inserted my Isetta into second position in the official procession.

Of course I realised that I was, shall we say, a little "de trop", and get-out-quick might be a good idea. But My Lord's driver had his clog down now (maybe My Lord had lingered too long over coffee and cigars), and had wound the Roller up to about 35 as we swerved left at the Mansion House, past Terry's lovely mahogany restaurant - (and "Betty's" opposite) - and round to the right. He could afford to do this (although the old lady heeled over rather alarmingly), as the route had been cleared for him: every possible escape route for me was sealed-off by a traffic policeman.

And not any old policeman. All the main crossings were manned by at least two-pips, all stiffly to attention and frozen at the salute in their best No.1 SDs. They wore that expression of shock and horror that Bateman depicted so well in his cartoons. I considered returning the salutes, but on second thought discarded the idea as inadvisable.

And now we were running into Piccadilly, where it seemed that most of the good folk of York had assembled to see the show. Suuddenly realising that they'd "put in the clowns", they reacted with delight: cat-calls, cheers, thumbs-up and waves (to which I replied with gracious regal nods and limp lifts of the wrist). I could sense teeth grinding in the front seats of the Jag on my tail. Clifford's Tower loomed up ahead; things were getting serious now.

What could they get me on ? There must be something in tne medieval statutes to meet the case. It was clearly Contempt of Court, and probably lèse-majesté. I racked my brains for case law, but could only come up with a tale I'd read or heard long ago. The chronicler of the time had recorded it in the mixture of English and Norman-French then current. It told a sad story as follows:

It seems that this litigant, dissatisfied with a judgment: "ject un brickbat à le Justice, que narrowly mis'd". Promptly arraigned before the said Justice, he was (not surprisingly) found guilty and "immediatement hangé". I did not think they would go so far with me, but a session in the dungeon and a grovelling apology to My Lord seemed on the cards. And now we'd passed the Tower. This was it . In a few moments now I absolutely knew what would happen. My Lord would turn left into the Assize Court: the white Jag would have me. :{

But I was spared. Unbelievably, the Jag and the rest of the entourage followed the Roller into the Courts. Greatly relieved, I scooted out of York as fast as my little wheels could carry me. Of course, I wasn't out of the woods even now. The Jag passenger had been hammering the radio, the followers had had ample time to engross my number on vellum if they wished. I might yet have to fear a summons in the post. But it didn't happen. :ok:

Goodnight, all.

Danny42C.


....After the Lord Mayor's Carriage comes...

Danny42C
24th Mar 2014, 23:26
Warmtoast,

The Attacker was withdrawn from FAA service in 1954 (Wiki). MPN11's travails date from 1962. Nice pic, though. Didn't the deck behind get a bit warm, though ?

Danny.

RAFEngO74to09
24th Mar 2014, 23:56
Danny,

I don't imagine the Attacker got the deck as warm as one of these !

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120523202622/thempirestwilight/images/e/ee/Phantom_005_dusk_launch_Ark_waist_cat.jpg

Danny42C
25th Mar 2014, 00:27
RAFEngO74to09,

Saints preserve us ! Sooner 'em than me ! Did a Phantom on that rig ever "break off the surly bonds of earth" and go flyabout ?

Danny.

EDIT: Suddenly realised that the thing was intending to do just that ! (noticed heads in cockpit).

(Time I went to bed !) D.

kookabat
25th Mar 2014, 04:46
Just a quick one. ANZAC Day approaches downunder (oh, ok, and everywhere else too), and so begin the usual stories on the television news.
This one's a bit different though, and it concerns a former 463 Squadron skipper of my acquaintance named Bill Purdy.
He still flies.
And on ANZAC Day he will be leading a fly-past of the Sydney ANZAC Day march in a Tiger Moth. His PPL is still current. I've told him it's one of the better excuses for missing the annual lunch that I've heard!
The story is here, with some footage, if anyone is interested:
Veteran WWII pilot Bill Purdy still flying Tiger Moths at 90 - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-25/veteran-wwii-pilot-still-flying-tiger-moths-at-90/5343832)

Adam

Chugalug2
25th Mar 2014, 07:49
Excellent story, Danny. One of your best! Your Isetta was an essential part of the scene of course, I can't think of anything else that could have contrasted more with his Lordship's regal conveyance. Brilliant!
One must pay tribute to Mr Plod of course. No doubt these days you would have been lucky to escape with your life, and even so your liberty would have been greatly curtailed. Perhaps they didn't want their own failings to be aired in court, or simply saw the same humour in the incident that the good folk of York did.
Whatever the explanation for your deliverance we can be sure that it wouldn't apply these days, more's the pity.

Geriaviator
25th Mar 2014, 18:20
@kookabat: your Aussie clip brought tears to my eyes. What a wonderful story, I'm so glad Mr Purdy will fly the Tiger Moth in tribute to the many thousands who having trained on them would never return.

As to the Tiger Moth, it sorted the pilots from the drivers. It exaggerated mistakes yet forgave most of them. I speak as one who trained on Aircoupe, Colt and C150 before I learned to fly with the Tiger.

Those trained on Tigers will seldom land halfway down the runway and run off the far end, they will seldom stuff the nosewheel onto the ground in the optimistic hope the brute will stay down (OK it will, when the nose gear is wiped off/buried in the grass) and they will seldom spin in on turning to finals. Though I suppose most people do this only once.

@Danny: your stories are a constant delight, and as Chugalug says, the Isetta was one of your best. Sir, I salute you.

Union Jack
25th Mar 2014, 19:24
Danny - Your Isetta upsetta my drinka!:D

Jack

gzornenplatz
25th Mar 2014, 19:45
You've made a young man very happy.:D:D:D


One small comment on a different subject - you do try to do a "two-pointer" in a glider (or sailplane).

You try to land on the wheel and tailskid at the same time. Same technique, "look well ahead" although you couldn't see a thing in a Hurricane.

Danny42C
26th Mar 2014, 00:20
kookabat,

Thanks for the link ! (what a wonderful old chap - shows there's hope for us yet). Must be due to a diet of wallaby steaks and XXXX.

As far as I can see, the Chipmunk took over (as a primary trainer in the RAF) from the TM in '52. But (shamelessly lifted from Wiki - underlining mine):

..."History of the Royal Naval Flying Training Flight..... Chipmunk aircraft".

"Since 1949 the Britannia Royal Naval College at Dartmouth has run Tiger Moths for recreational flying, as well as running summer flying camps. Later on, Auster, De Havilland Chipmunk, Miles Messenger and Miles Gemini aircraft were also introduced. After grading of potential aircrew was introduced, these aircraft were employed during the week for assessing future aircrew and at weekends for recreation. By this time the aircraft were based at Roborough Airport, on the outskirts of Plymouth. By 1966 the flight had stabilised at 12 Chipmunk aircraft"....

Obviously they were running the TM there in '62 as a Grading School; this would have been MPN11's Waterloo. As I've said before: he would have been much better off with no previous flying at all, as all the experience (in landings) he had would work against him now.... It was a pity.....D.

Chugalug, Geriaviator and Union Jack,

Thank you once more for the kind words - glad to have raised a chuckle or two on a dull day !...D.

gzornenplatz,

Thanks as above. But your: "you do try to do a "two-pointer" in a glider". Aces like you maybe - rabbits like me just get the damn' thing down anyhow !
Curious about "gzornen". Looks like German, but rings no bells (haven't got a dictionary handy, Google no help). Reminds me of Benny Hill's priceless: "Squarebashingerplatz" !....D.

Goodnight, all. Danny.

Warmtoast
26th Mar 2014, 10:22
Danny

As far as I can see, the Chipmunk took over (as a primary trainer in the RAF) from the TM in '52

Not quite. When I arrived at 5 FTS (RAF Thornhill - S. Rhodesia) in August 1951 Tiger Moths were still in use there as seen here from my photos.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/TigerMoth1_zps6dfe3d50.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/TigerMoth_zps893ac7f3.jpg

And this one landing over a shortly to be retired 3ANS Anson.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/TigerMothLandingoverAnsonT20_zpsd0357787.jpg

5 FTS received its first Chipmunk in September 1951 - this is it.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/Thornhill-Chipmunk.jpg

5 FTS was allocated 27 Chipmunk T.10s. Built at Hawarden near Chester, they were crated and shipped out to Durban in South Africa and transferred to rail trucks for the journey to 394 MU at RAF Heany near Bulawayo where they were assembled, flight tested and then flown up to Thornhill.

Tiger Moths were all gone by October/November 1951 ISTR. Some were sold locally at £5 a pop!, but there weren't many civilian takers. The two seen in the photo below were on their way to the Royal Rhodesian Air Force in Salisbury and were the last to leave 5 FTS. Any remaining were broken up for scrap.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/Thornhill-TigerMoth4.jpg

MPN11
26th Mar 2014, 10:51
I might have done better with one of these ... 727 NAS Flying Grading | Royal Navy (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/The-Fleet/Aircraft/Aircrew-Training/727-NAS-Flying-Grading)

Danny42C
26th Mar 2014, 16:28
Warmtoast,

Lovely pics ! The dear old Tiger in all its glory. Takes you back ! Yes, I think we were still using them in UK EFTSs in '51 (and what's this about retired Ansons ? I thought the Anson was immortal. Some mistake here; friend of mine boasted of having conned, as a civvie rep for Avro, AM into ordering enough Anson spares to keep all Annies going well into the 22nd century)....D.

MPN11,

Thanks for the link - very informative, tells me everything about the aircraft I might want to know, except WHAT IS IT ? When I were a lad, there were Tiger (Gypsy ?) Moths and Piper Cubs, and that was about it. Now there are so many different puddle-jumpers that I've completely lost track. :confused:

Having said that, it looks very nice (but wouldn't those elegant spats get bunged up with mud ?). Good to see that their Lordships had come to their senses at last, but too late for you, I'm afraid. Still, the RN's loss was the RAF's gain....D.

Cheers, both. Danny.

EDIT:

BTW, was very interested to re-see: "The Battle of Midway" (the second, Charlton Heston one - ITV4 last Saturday PM) . Good to see the Japanese shown as intelligent beings and not (as usually) mere neandertals. The intricate chess-game of tactics between Admirals Yamamoto and Nimitz was fascinating; the climax, in which the SBD "Dauntless" dive bombers demolished three of the four Japanese fleet carriers (with incredible speed: I've seen seven and a half minutes quoted) better than any Hollywood fictional triumph. Might be worth a look on iplayer (ignore the histrionics and utterly irrelevant love-story).

Naturally, I have an old professional interest in this; but it is always been a mystery to me why the American public have let it all pass from memory. For it was their equivalent of our "Battle of Britain". From that day in June '42, the back of Japanese air power in the Pacific was broken, as US shipyards could outbuild them three to one; their defeat in the theatre was certain, however long it took.....D.

CoffmanStarter
26th Mar 2014, 16:41
Danny ...

The current UK Mil Basic Trainer is known as the Grob Tutor ... It's plastic !

More here ...

RAF - Tutor T Mark 1 (http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/tutorgriffin.cfm)

Cockpit ...

Grob Cockpit (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Cockpit_of_Grob_Tutor_Two_Seat_Training_Aircraft_MOD_4515268 3.jpg)

They're not owned by the Mil ... Hence both Civilian and Mil dual Reg Numbers ... UK Government PFI contract :ugh:

PS ... Thing wins the £5 :ok:

thing
26th Mar 2014, 17:22
Nice to see that the Tutor has a thrust of 180lbs...:D

Warmtoast
26th Mar 2014, 17:29
Danny

and what's this about retired Ansons?

Sorry, retired is the wrong word - returned is better as all Thornhill's 3 ANS T21 Ansons were returned to the UK in late 1951 except for one which was retained at Thornhill for search and rescue work as seen below practice dropping a Bundu/jungle survival pack.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/5FTSRAFThornhillSARAnson-1952.jpg

The dear old Tiger in all its glory

...and in inglorious mode as seen here!

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/Thornhill-Upside-downTigerMoth.jpg

Danny42C
26th Mar 2014, 18:13
CoffmanStarter,

So that's what it was (you learn something new every day) Thanks, CS ! Always thought Grob just made powered gliders. Don't know anything about these - what did you do about prop drag when in the glide mode - was there a freewheel or something ?

"You know you're getting old when you can remember the first (Avro) Tutor:"

http://www.airmuseumsuk.org/airshow/2004/Shut040704/800/images/040%20Avro%20Tutor.jpg

Avro Tutor
Danny

Danny42C
26th Mar 2014, 18:22
Warmtoast,

Poor old Tigger ! May I use that, please, in the (very unlikely) event of my winning the CapCom ? (don't hold your breath).

Danny.

MPN11
26th Mar 2014, 19:00
CoffmanStarter ... Thanks for the Grub (sic) links. :ok:

So is that telling us the instrument panel trim isn't actually leather, like it was in my Jags? And the PIC sits on the right? And no white lines to demarcate the primary instruments? And carpet on the sidewalls? The DVD player is a nice touch, though ;)

The number of carpenters, riggers, painters and canvas-workers made redundant by this "progress" is frightening. Sic transit Tigger :cool:

CoffmanStarter
26th Mar 2014, 19:18
MPN11 ...

All correct ... bar the DVD player :ok:

Mind you this particular airframe had a bit of a bump :(

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/dft_avsafety_pdf_030406.pdf

The RAF Bulldog also had some "Axminster" in the cockpit :)

Coff.

MPN11
26th Mar 2014, 19:32
Coff, what's the point of carpet when you need to clean up puke? Or don't today's steely aviators ever up-chuck? :}

My one Bulldog trip in later years spared the carpet.

I cannot say the same for my one JP5 LL trip ... I blame myself for energetic lookout and attempted map reading. And perhaps the previous night's beverages during our Staff College visit to Finningley (RIP)

CoffmanStarter
26th Mar 2014, 20:02
MPN11 ...

I'm more familiar with the "comforts" of the Chipmunk ... no carpet there :ok:

Best ...

Coff.

Fareastdriver
26th Mar 2014, 20:25
I can remember the first Chipmunks arriving at Heany. They were introduced to the public during an Empire Air Day. It was the last time I saw the 'tied together' Tiger formation.
Later on the dump at the MU became a major playground for us kids with rows of SofC Tiger Moths.

Danny42C
26th Mar 2014, 23:06
As I've already said, I can recall no particular triumphs and disasters - or indeed anything noteworthy - in my time on Approach and in the ACR7 at Linton. Except that there I "dinged" my 403 for the first time.

It was entirely my own fault. A long and boring Night Flying session had ended in the early hours, and I was anxious to get away home to bed. Coming out of the dimly lit truck into total darkness (all airfield lights switched off) with little night vision, I hopped into the car and reversed smartly for a quick getaway across the grass. There was a loud bang. With sinking heart I climbed out.

I had reversing lights, but they were largely decorative, and I didn't look anyway - I knew where the diesel generator was, of course. But a newly delivered 40-gallon drum of derv had been left in an unusual spot, and we had connected. The drum was on its side now, with a big dent in it, but luckily the screw-bung was in tight and there was no leak. But my offside lamp-cum-tank filler flap cluster was Cat 5 and there was a tiny dent in the bumper - but no body damage.

In any of the well-known cars of the day, the next step would be obvious - round the local scrapyards with tool kit, overalls and "Swarfega". But a Peugeot 403 was a rara avis in the UK - when you met another on the road, you flashed lights in pleased recognition. I was forced back on the mercy of Gladstone Garage, York. They got a new cluster sent up from London - machined out of solid gold, by the size of the bill - and I resolved to be more careful in future.

On the Fire Officer front, I was making a name for myself - not always favourable ! The Station Car Club had been allowed the use of an old Laing hut for their club-house and workshop. I did a Fire Inspection and found that the bare boards were soaked in oil and that there were ample "Evidences of Smoking" (as we Firemen say) in spite of the posters on the walls. I condemned it as a Fire Risk and recommended demolition. But W/Cdr (A) was more kindly, and allowed them to continue on a Promise of Good Behavior in Future (and a few more buckets of sand).

My chief concern from the beginning had been the proximity of the Ouse. We looked up flying accidents for the last ten years and plotted them on a three-mile circle centred on the airfield; a large proportion were on the far side of the river. Our nearest bridge was at Aldwark (a mile away - but that was "plated" at 7½ tons. Our L/Rover was all right at 2 tons, but the Salamander weighed in at 13 tons. Hopeless ? - well, perhaps not quite.

Built about 250 years ago, it had been rebuilt in the 19th century (after collision with an iceberg [yes ! - Google] coming down-river). In the first place, bridges were built with an enormous safety margin. And then there was a difference between day-in-day-out loads (say loads of hard-core, fertilizer or pigmeal) pounding the bridge all the time and inflicting "Repetitive Strain Injury", and a rare overload every blue moon.

Could the bridge stand up under 13 tons "one-off" ? We confidentially consulted the bridge engineers. The answer (informally) was, probably, "yes". But of course they admitted this only cagily on a non-attributable basis, and certainly would not put it in writing. So what's a poor Corporal i/c Crash 2 to do ? (it is the Fire Crew's responsibility to plot their route to an incident). If he chances the bridge, and ends up in the river with the Mk.6 sitting on top of a bridge span, who'll carry the can ?

It was way above his pay-scale (or mine). My view was that speed was of the essence; the saving of life must be the paramount consideration. If the Aldwark bridge was the closest route, then take it regardless. Otherwise, IIRC, you'd have to go South almost to York (Clifton bridge), or up to Boroughbridge, to get across. That could be up to 20 miles "dead" running - the fire would have burned-out by then. Of course, York and Boroughbridge (and possibly village "retained" Fire crews) might have got there first - but their foam-making capacity was puny in comparison with our Mk.6 - they were "water engines".

What was needed was an undertaking from the RAF to the Aldwark bridge authority, indemnifying them against bridge damage (or worse, collapse) in the event of our Mk.6 using it in emergency (for of course a trial was out of the question). W/Cdr (A) promised to take it up with Group, where (predictably) it went like a lead balloon. None of the poltroons on the Staff would put his name to such a thing. It was a Matter for Decision by the the Officer or NCO on the Spot, who Can Best Assess the Circumstances (in short, "you're on your own, mate !")

W/Cdr (A) would not allow me to put out a written Order to "Press on regardless" if need arose, but I privily assembled my NCOs and instructed them to that effect (before my Sergeant and other good witnesses), advising them to learn to swim if they could not already do so. The eventuality never arose, whether it has ever done so since ('64) I don't know (but would be interested to know, and if so, what happened).

Goodnight, again, chaps.

Danny42C.


It's the last straw that breaks the camel's back.

Warmtoast
27th Mar 2014, 00:03
Danny

May I use that, please, in the (very unlikely) event of my winning the CapCom ? (don't hold your breath).

Please do - do we share the winnings?

Madbob
27th Mar 2014, 14:37
Danny, your reminiscences of Linton and the Aldwark Bridge made me recall my own time at Linton as a JP student pilot.

My experience began on a Sunday in November 1979. Carting all my worldly goods from OCTU at Henlow involved the trusty A1 with a turn off onto the A59 towards York. This was supposed to bring one into Linton via Little Ouseburn and in via the back door so to speak.

The freshly printed Joining Instructions gave some assistance and helpfully said when to arrive but being November it was dark by 4.50 pm when I arrived. Unbeknown to me some of the "characters" on the graduating course ahead, knowing that a new course would be arriving, thought it would be a bit of a hoot to re-arrange the nice red and white signposts to Linton. The all important one to me on the B6256 at Little Ouseburn was 90 degrees out! :(:(:(:(

This led to an interesting navex nearly to Boroughbridge before the error became even too obvious for me and a 180 was called for. A routing through Great Ouseburn eventually led to the old Bailey Bridge at Aldwark. The toll was 2p! So eventually I arrived at around 6 pm to meet the fellow members of 43 Course and glad that I was not the only one caught out!! In 2013 the toll was was 40p, up by 2000% in 34 years!! (ISTR Petrol then was around £1.10 a gallon or 25p/litre .)

As an aside we hold 5-yearly, well-attended, BFT course re-unions and the next one is on the 31st October in York......possibly a unique thing for a BFT course but we had such an excellent course spirit and it stuck.:ok:

MB

Danny42C
27th Mar 2014, 16:56
Warmtoast,

Many thanks for your imprimatur (not that it's likely to be needed - only thing I ever won in my life was a packet of razor blades in a Spot Waltz in the war [they were like gold then]).

No, but you can share the opprobium when I pick the wrong winner ! (remember 20 Sqdn and the Beauty Competition).

Danny.

Chugalug2
27th Mar 2014, 17:54
Danny, I never flew into or out of Linton as far as I can recall, but had I done so my chances of surviving an accident there would have been greatly improved thanks to you. The best bosses are not those who curry favour from above or popularity from below but those who get the most out of their subordinates and stand by them if things go wrong.

Your special bridge instructions to your firemen illustrate this to perfection. It is no surprise to me that no-one at Group or above would go out on a limb for your corporals or for their potential customers who ended up on the wrong side of the river in extremis. Leadership as a rule stops at the Station gates in the Royal Air Force in my experience. You did what was right, and as an ex-driver airframe I thank you for it. :ok:

Danny42C
27th Mar 2014, 18:10
Madbob,

Although you were 15 years after me, it would seem that the old "upperclass" hazing spirit was still alive and well at Linton. Hope you got your revenge in some way !

Two questions for you: One, (long shot): were there any flying accidents on the other side of the Ouse when you were there ? And if so, do you remember where the Crash Crew crossed ? (Bailey Bridge? Don't think so in my time, and look at it now - Google > Aldwark Toll Bridge).

Is it remotely possible that the Linton Crash Crew did knock it down some time in the intervening years :eek: and the RE had to put up a Bailey Bridge ?

Two (quite unrelated): You were hotfoot from Henlow in '79. Did they teach you anything about the Ten Principles of War in those days (just wondering).

Danny.


EDIT:

Chugalug, (crept in while my back was turned)

You are much too kind, Sir. After all, I couldn't leave my poor Corporal carrying the can, now could I ? (no more would you, I'm sure).

"Put not your faith in Princes...."..... Danny.

Molemot
28th Mar 2014, 11:51
Ahhhh...the Aldwark Bridge!! Waaaay back, one weekend in early 1972, Moley and another trainee pilot had dined in the Mess at Linton...disposing of a litre or so of Nicolas Vieux Ceps...and we decided to go to Leeds to see "Straw Dogs". Fired up the Alfa GTV and headed off....across the Aldwark Bridge, most direct route....Leeds and the cinema. Parked car, got in the queue for tickets; realised this would take some time, and thirst would not be denied. So we got half a bottle of something spiritous to queue with....once the ticket booth was reached, this had become a very sad old vessel so a replacement was acquired to go in with! I recall some altercation with another audience member who seemed to have a Bugs Bunny fixation, but by this time things weren't as clear as they had been.....
I awoke in an empty cinema; noticed the seat next to me was also empty....where was Pete? So I set out on a search....it's quite amazing what a gents toilet looks like after re-decoration with partially digested red wine etc.etc. (!) I located Pete and we went back to my car. Driving was out of the question, so a very chilly February night was spent under a Space Blanket....always keep a survival kit handy!
Came the dawn....and a bit later.....and later still; the hangover was developing nicely, but it was time to go back to Linton. So I fired up the trusty Alfa and set off gingerly, due to headache (!)....all went well until we reached the Aldwark Bridge. It was still pretty early...I'm a bit hazy as to whether we paid the toll or not, or whether the toll window was manned, but I do remember what happened next. The Aldwark Bridge was a strange beast, it wasn't straight and, iirc, was a wooden structure....I now know that a) bridges freeze first and b) the roadway on the bridge was thus covered in ice! As we went on to the bridge I applied a bit too much power and the back end of the Alfa broke away and started to slide! There we were, going sideways towards a loud crunching noise and a short period of freefall followed by a watery grave.....so I corrected for the slide, and the beast fishtailed back the other way....lifting off would have flung us into the waiting river.....so (as that seemed a less than optimum solution) I steered the other way.....and she fishtailed back again........!
In this fashion we proceeded to cross the full span of the bridge, the tyres reached blessed tarmac and gripped, and we shot off towards Linton. I looked at Pete....his eyes were like saucers....and he said "I'm never getting in a car with you again!!"
True enough...he never did! And I STILL haven't seen Straw Dogs.... PNKQPdVB, wonder where you are now?(!)

BEagle
28th Mar 2014, 12:22
Before the access to RAF Leeming was re-designed when the station flew the F-3, the only (legal) way in was via Gatenby Lane.

Now the farmers of Yorkshire aren't that well known for their generosity, but when it came to bovine ...'slurry', the farmer of Gatenby Grange was generous to a fault and the double bend at the end of the mile long straight from the A1 to Gatenby was often well lubricated with the stuff. To add even more excitement, the bend had significant adverse camber....

One night after a few ales in the OM, a chum offered to take 2 of us with him to find some fish and chips in a nearby village - so off we went in his Cortina estate with no problems. Fish and chips duly scoffed, back we came. However, my other colleague then announced "I hear the Gatenby Lane record has been broken again!".....

This was like a red rag to a bull, or rather to 'Weasel', the driver. Thrashing the old Cortina up to an alarming speed, he approached 'Cow$hit Corner' with little sign of braking. We swept round the first bend at an angle of about 60 degreees to the road, whereupon I decided to lie on the floor. He'd just about regained control when we came to the second bend....and he did the same thing again! Somehow we made it back to the OM, but in rather frosty silence. Did he break the record? I've no idea...

Still, he did lend me the Cortina to drive back from Valley to collect all my belongings from Cranwell a few weeks later (they wouldn't fit in my MG Midget). But it was a wretchedly awful vehicle!

Danny42C
28th Mar 2014, 15:38
Molemot,

Sounds like the Linton Crash Crew didn't have to worry too much about demolishing the Aldwark Bridge - with so many willing helpers like you !...D.

Beagle,

A harrowing tale indeed ! Leeming had the Freedom of Gatenby (and could march through with bayonets fixed and colours flying). And we suggested a competition for a "Miss Gatenby of 19##", but the proposal was not well received......D.

Cheers both, Danny.

Wwwop
28th Mar 2014, 18:15
I trust you chaps will allow a woman at the bar. My daughter told me recently about this thread on PPRuNe and I have found it very interesting. I am sorry to have missed Cliff & Reg (RIP) but it’s good to see Danny carrying the flag.

Rather than wait to be conscripted, I volunteered for the WAAF in 1942. I did not reach the lofty heights of you Brylcreem boys but some of this may to relevant to earlier postings.

After basic training, like aircrew-in-waiting, I was parked at Upwood, also Silverstone (now the racetrack).They tried to keep us busy with lectures, drills and route marches but we had free time and played lots of ping-pong in the NAAFI and Tarzan and Jane in the trees on the station. We walked to the local pubs. We had two bob a week to spend, You boys had three.

Eventually, I was assigned to No 1 Radio School at Blackpool. I was not at the Avalon Hotel but know someone who was and he has pictures.

A battle-axe of a WAAF officer warned us that the rats had left the sinking ship and all the crime and vice had left London and come to Blackpool. She warned us of other dangers to our virtue but, looking back, we were all a bunch of just-left-school kids.

After qualifying, I was posted to Cranwell Signals Flying Training School where we were given the opportunity to fly. My first flight was in a Proctor. The fly-boy was strutting his stuff. I had eaten liver and onions for lunch which proved to be a waste of time. In the evenings, in Lincolnshire, hundreds of aircraft could be seen taking off to join the huge formations on their way to attack Germany. In the pub, at night, we would raise a half pint to those who “failed to return” with some of those who did.

I volunteered for service overseas and found myself on a Dutch luxury liner (converted trooper) sailing across the Indian Ocean. Heady stuff for a Leicestershire village kid. We disembarked at Colombo. Yes, we were encumbered with those sola topees, only to have them collected from us as we disembarked. Would you believe that we were then issued with those scratchy, woollen RAF forage caps?

After Colombo, I was posted to the flying boat base of Koggala from where S/ldr Birchall, ”the Saviour of Ceylon” had taken off and spotted the Japanese Fleet about to do a Pearl Harbour on Colombo and Trincomalee. Churchill described this as the most dangerous moment of the war. They gave us canoes to play with. Nobody had said anything about a flight path and one day we found a Catalina quite close to us.

When the Army had tidied up Burma, my brother, who had been with the 14th Army, was regrouping near Bombay, preparing for Operation Zipper. I asked for and received permission to visit him. I flew in a Dakota transport with seats along each side. We put our feet up on the cargo piled along the centre. We had 3 or 4 stops on the way. The WAAF were quartered in one of the several identical 4 storey building along Marine Drive in Bombay. Shortly before, one close by had collapsed due to poor construction.

Yes, we were miffed when, in May 1945, the rest of the world was celebrating the end of the war. One of my contacts was RAF Records. I was sending details of discovered downed aircraft in Burma and their occupants.

After the bomb, I was posted to Hong Kong but disembarked at Singapore because they needed a w/op. The Army had roughly cleaned up the Tanglin Barracks after the Japanese had departed. We finished the job and took occupancy.

In Singapore I met a sailor who took me for a ride on his minesweeper.

“Wiv bin tergevver nah fer nearly 69 years”

M.

PS Are there any more ex SEAC WAAF out there?

Geriaviator
28th Mar 2014, 18:41
These tales of bovine deposits ... long ago I was apprenticed to an airfield manager of the old school. It came to pass that the Air Ministry Inspector was to conduct the annual inspection of the airfield, which required the renewal of runway markings.

Half a century before all this eco-friendly stuff, and to his great puzzlement, the then Iuvenaviator was despatched with high-tech barrow and shovel to collect five buckets of dung from the cattle which then grazed the rented spaces between the runways of our impecunious flying club, while the boss collected two bags of lime from the builders' merchant.

Lime, dung and a dozen packets of washing blue (kids, don't even ask) were added to a 40-gallon drum from which the end had been laboriously chiselled, then filled with water. The pale green mix was then stirred with a fence post. And stirred and stirred. No prizes for guessing who did the stirring. The mixture was then painted by yard brush over the existing runway numbers. The first 22-04 weren't too bad, but by the time we finished the 30ft long 09-27 my shoulders were aching, and I wondered aloud whether the boss had wasted my time, for the smelly mess might not stick at all.

Big mistake. An hour with hosepipe, brush and two-tone Aztec with khaki lower half demonstrated that cow dung is indeed superbly adhesive. The sparkling lime-dung runway numbers lasted easily for a year, but by then Cherokee had met Cow in expensive union, giving me a mainplane replacement to add to my engineering logbook. Meanwhile the club funds must have improved, for next year we used white emulsion paint. And without cattle, the Aztec stayed sparkling white.

MPN11
28th Mar 2014, 19:55
Wwwop ... may I be the first to say "Hello, Darling, want a drink?" :ok:

A great welcome to you, and thrilled to have you aboard ... that should clean up some of the tales of yore :)

I spent most of my career working with members of the WRAF/RAF(w)/Local Service airwomen. Indeed, I married one :D

ricardian
28th Mar 2014, 20:22
Wwwop - my mother, Gladys Fletcher, was an instructor at Blackpool teaching Morse Code in 1941-43. She left the WAAF to have me in 1943 and joined up again until 1946. She was very proud of being the right marker for the WAAF contingent of the Victory Parade in London.

MPN11
28th Mar 2014, 20:39
ricardian ... alas, I was a D-Day baby. My father was scheduled to be in the 3rd line of boats on SWORD, and according to the strange logic of the time determined that my mother should always have a memory of him. :\

As it happened, due to some rescheduling, he went ashore on D+8 and survived.

So I wasn't really needed. And I'm an only child :hmm:

ricardian
28th Mar 2014, 20:48
MPN11 said ricardian ... alas, I was a D-Day baby. My father was scheduled to be in the 3rd line of boats on SWORD, and according to the strange logic of the time determined that my mother should always have a memory of him.
As it happened, due to some rescheduling, he went ashore on D+8 and survived.
So I wasn't really needed. And I'm an only child

I never knew who my father was, my grandmother got a telegram out of the blue in 1943 saying "FgOff xxx has been killed on active duty" or words to that effect. Gran didn't keep the telegram and could not remember the name - it was the first indication she had that my mother had put down someone elses name as NOK. After I was born my mother obviously missed the service life for she left me with my grandparents & her sister to serve for two more years in the WAAF. She eventually married and had 3 children - now after umpteen years I am touch with my sister who has lived in Australia for the last 45 years.
It would be an amazing coincidence if Wwwop knew my mother (Gladys Fletcher, believed to be a Sgt instructor) when she was at Blackpool.

MPN11
28th Mar 2014, 20:54
ricardian, in that respect I am lucky. I have my father's "Wounded" telegram, and his correspondence with the War Office in '45 (sorry, he was Royal Artillery, as befits the family 3-service history) which allowed him to give one week's notice of retirement before returning to civilian employment.

I guess the latter implies he really wasn't needed after the War :ooh:

dogle
28th Mar 2014, 21:26
Wwwop, may I second MPN11's warm welcome (and join the queue of those anxious to set up your drinks on the bar, all gasping to hear more).

Amazing coincidences - oooh, 'tis a small world - it is very likely that you (and indeed Gladys Fletcher) were from time to time in conversation with my late mother, during your service in Blackpool ... terminating in her request "Press Button "A", please" !

smujsmith
28th Mar 2014, 21:55
Wwwop (M),

Your initial post dangles many carrots. I'm sure there are many more posts needed just to cover your outline there. And if you say that a Leicestershire wench is short of words I won't believe it, because I'm married to one. Like the others, I look forward to your input to a thread that, to me anyway, is not so much a story, more a tour through RAF history. I'm very sure that you must have lots to tell us all and look forward to hearing as much as you can provide. A very warm welcome is guaranteed on this thread, after all, they let me post occasionally. I hope wherever you are in Canada, it's as good as the places I was lucky enough to visit during my service. Always a great place.

Smudge :ok:

Danny42C
28th Mar 2014, 22:56
Wwwop,

Welcome to our happy band in this Crewroom in cyberspace ! You are appointed i/c the Tea Swindle wef (two sugars for me, please). Mrs D. was an ex-Dental Wren - pity that Mountbatten bagged them all for his empire in Ceylon. None, AFAIK, served N of Adam's Bridge, seems the same went for ATS and WAAF. As we never flew S of the Bridge, they were an unknown quantity to us in India.

D.

Chugalug2
28th Mar 2014, 23:19
Wwwop, welcome indeed! That's an awful lot of territory, and oceans for that matter, to be covered in one post. It would be really interesting to hear your story in more detail, all the more so because the WAAF has been woefully conspicuous by its absence in this thread to date.

So why the WAAF rather than the other women's uniformed Services? Where was your basic training? What was it like? What was involved in becoming a WOp? In Singapore were you working RAF Records by Short Wave?

I only ask because I remember that Changi had a roomful of operators trying to raise London and failing to do so, when a US Officer strolled in and asked if he could set up his comms equipment on the roof. An Airman was duly detailed and it was he that revealed what happened next. The officer opened the attache case he was carrying, set up a corkscrew like antenna, pointed it at the sky, twiddled some knobs and then began speaking into a handset. "Canaveral, Canaveral, this is Singapore, how do you read, over. Roger, loud and clear also, Singapore out".

It was the mid 60's, the first orbital Gemini missions were imminent and Changi was one of the places where US Rescue Teams were based, ready to fly to a capsule that came down other than in the planned recovery area. This wondrous use of what later became known to us as Communication Satellites spelled redundancy for the people in the room downstairs...

BEagle
28th Mar 2014, 23:36
Ah, the mysteries of HF comms....

'twas oft said that it was easier to raise the dead than to raise Cyprus Flight Watch - even in 2002!!

smujsmith
29th Mar 2014, 20:30
Too true Beagle, I well remember struggling to get an HF patch with Cyprus, whilst having a smashing two way with ARINC New York whilst sat on the ground at Penang circa 1994. Words like skip bounce, atmospheric deflection etc all haunt me at this point, so I will leave it to those in the know to explain. Hopefully Wwwop can help.

Smudge :ok:

ricardian
29th Mar 2014, 21:01
Deployed from 38 Group (Tangmere) to RAF El Adem in late 1968 we had a 1 kilowatt transmitter to be used on the RAF Transport Command HF network. Initially we put up a whip aerial (long, vertical bit of wire) and managed to work Upavon, Cyprus, Nairobi, Gan and (just) Singapore. 24 hours later when the aerial riggers had erected an allegedly super-efficient Grainger aerial (several 30 ft masts and LOTS of wire) it replaced the whip aerial. We could raise Cyprus but that was it. Lots of tweaking and twiddling went on but for the next few weeks of the detachment we used the long, vertical bit of wire whilst the aerial riggers & techs played with the Grainger aerial.
Whilst erecting the Grainger aerial the aerial riggers had to excavate many, many holes for the posts that supported the many 30 ft masts. The newly issued Kango hammers (250V mains-driven, heavy industrial jobs) burnt out within a couple of hours and the old-style pickaxes were brought into play.

Danny42C
30th Mar 2014, 00:57
One of my Corporals came to me in some distress. It appeared that he had sold his car to a Marine Lieutenant on the AFS Course. Unwisely, he'd handed over the car and paperwork before the cheque cleared - it didn't. The amount at stake was £100 or so - good money then.

I could hardly reprove him. The same had happened to me at Thorney Island three years before, but in my case I could easily get hold of the defaulter (a nav student at ANS) and turn the thumbscews on him if needed. So where was our errant Marine ? Somewhere in Borneo, that's where !

I told the Corporal that he'd been an idiot (not news to him, as his wife had acidly been telling him the same thing for some time), that I would do what I could for him and take it up with the Navy (he had the bounced cheque as evidence), but that he should not hold his breath.

I sought audience with the Commander (Air). He gravely heard me out, then told me more or less what I'd told the Corporal. "Leave it with me", said the Commander. I reported back to my chap. "This'll take a while", I thought.

Of course it was a serious matter. "Robbing your Comrades" (which is what this amounted to) has always been considered among the blackest of military crimes (short of murdering him - like Kipling's "Danny Deever"). Between two officers, or two Other Ranks, it's bad enough. But for any officer to "bilk" a member of the Lower Deck in this way is unpardonable.

No E-mails or Skype in those days. But the Commander had not been idle. Signals were soon flashing round the world. Our Marine had been traced to his jungle hilltop: the error of his ways gently whispered into his shell-like ear.

About ten days later my Corporal came to see me again, beaming from ear to ear. Another cheque had come - a good one this time. And he was "off the hook" at home, too. Full marks to the Navy ! :ok:

Not long after the Commander was posted away. I was at his Dining Out. He'd always been well liked, but there were disappointed murmers of dissent all round when, in his speech, he suggested that, as the age of the great battleships had passed, so now was the turn of our great warships of the air (the V-bombers).

Yet the Commander spoke the truth. In May'60 Gary Powers, in an U-2, had been brought down by an early Russian SAM. By extension, the same could now happen to anything else flying. The cloak of invulnerability hitherto provided to the V-bombers by their combination of very high speed and high altitude had been torn away.

The age of the bomber was over. The intercontinental missile would take over.

Goodnight, everybody.

Danny42C.


Be Sure your Sins will Find You Out !

Chugalug2
30th Mar 2014, 19:59
The rubber cheque is indeed professional suicide for a commissioned officer and certain exit left if perpetrated on Other Ranks (hence the derivation of the word 'cashiered'?). We had a copilot who bought up most of Changi Village with them and was summarily dismissed the Service.

Once again Danny, smart work in acting so effectively on behalf of your Corporal, and well done the Senior Service. They might have said some very cruel things about the Junior One, such as describing our Station Parades as "Are you there, Moriarty?", but push coming to shove to regain an RAF Corporal's wodge (and their honour) is much credit where it is due. Pity the good Commander had to blot his Copybook then by crowing over who was to get the Bucket of Sunshine next. Point taken, as they say, but who's still got aeroplanes?

Wild thread drift alert! Have just stumbled on this rare BBC series on Youtube. 15 episodes that would have cost me 15 cups of tea in the local Milk Bar, which had a TV hung halfway up the wall. Homework all done and tuppence to spend, I was round there once a week for yet another infusion of War in the Air (and tea of course). Check #13 Danny, a clutch of Veangii if I'm not mistaken (though no doubt IAF!) :-

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLg6vMJyq8rC5IiVNu4_XTAFEYqUR8dh6s

Danny42C
31st Mar 2014, 21:08
Chugalug,

What a feast to keep me happy for days ! Thanks ! Have had a good look at #13 tonight - they certainly have re-used some of the footage which "Vlad" collated and you put up on this thread a while ago - except that I don't remember the macaque hopping about all over the VV. As you say, this is all IAF footage and (in my guess) non-operational at the OTU in Peshawar, but none the worse for that. The quality of the film is much better than the "original"

In the early part the land story is told quite correctly, but nearly all the ground-attack shots are Hurricanes (and the odd P-47 Thunderbolt). I don't think there is any film of a VV operational attack; in any case by the time your bombs exploded you would be half a mile away among the treetops and out of shot.

Danny

See why the Aussie bush hat was so popular for all ranks ! :ok:

EDIT: Noted:

(around 1.13). Men are doing all the heavy work ! Most unusual in those parts !

(2.43) Obviously non-op (no kit, no webbing, no pistols). Gunner is reaching out for first handhold to climb up side to his cockpit, where back (curved) section of canopy still in place - we chucked them all out, as they were a nuisance and you could manage perfectly well without them.

(8.43) What is it ? (Looks like a TM with back cockpit faired over). D.

camlobe
31st Mar 2014, 23:04
Have been rather occupied recently, and have just caught up with proceedings in our 'T' bar.

Wwwop, like all here, I look forward anxiously to the details of your career. You have left us hanging on to the edge of our seats, impatiently waiting for your further jottings, especially due to the way your précis was richly filled with such interesting appetisers. More, much more please.

There are even more interesting contributions happening now, far more interesting than mine, and therefore I am going to sit back and absorb. The tapestry of service life displayed on this thread is all-encompassing and completely enthralling, and I sit here grateful and proud to have played a very small and unimportant part in the RAF.

Camlobe

ricardian
31st Mar 2014, 23:41
In doing some research on Malcolm Clubs I came across this lengthy speech (in Hansard) (http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1959/jan/22/proposed-closure-of-malcolm-clubs) by Lord Tedder in 1959 - pity their airships nowadays can't speak out like this. Quite a long debate too, nearly 3 hours. I loved the bit about the Malcolm Club at Wittering being built without the Air Council knowing about it until it was almost completed!

MPN11
1st Apr 2014, 08:47
(8.43) What is it ? (Looks like a TM with back cockpit faired over).

I think you are 100% correct! Possibly a local modification, for MedEvac purposes.

Warmtoast
1st Apr 2014, 09:33
Wwwop

As someone who served in Ceylon (Sri Lanka) at Negombo (Katunayake) and China Bay in 1956 - 57, I'd love to hear more of how the place looked to you in WW2.

Meanwhile some WW2 photos of WAAFs in Ceylon to bring back memories.

All photos are from the IWM. Exact locations of first two photos not stated.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Negombo%20Katunayake/WAAFsinCeylonWW2_zpsb02f31a7.jpg

In the mess hall.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Negombo%20Katunayake/WAAFsinCeylonWW2-CplBettyBucktakingdictation_zps190b3c1f.jpg

WAAF taking dictation

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Negombo%20Katunayake/WAAFsinCeylonWW2-2_zpsec001272.jpg

Ceylon-based WAAFs arriving in Singapore at the end of the war (wearing the dreaded forage cap - why I don't know as my sister who was a WAAF teleprinter operator during WW2 used to come home on leave wearing a peaked hat).

Finally Admiral Somerville inspects a very smart turn-out of WRENs in Colombo. Their white outfit puts the RAF/WAAF kharki uniform to shame I think!

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Negombo%20Katunayake/WRNSinCeylonWW2inspectedbyAdmiralSomerville2_zps4854d626.jpg

As mentioned above all are IWM photos.

Danny42C
1st Apr 2014, 11:47
ricardian,

Well that the Malcolm Clubs are not forgotten - oh, if only we had people like Tedder, "Batchy" Atcherley and "Paddy" (the Earl of) Bandon, with us today !

They had a good Malcolm Club in Geilenkirchen '60/'62. Bought a Baldamatic there - a fine 35mm camera with built-in rangefinder and exposure meter, for just Dm150 (say £13 then). A Flt. Lt. DAPM we had married one of the Malcolm ladies there. :ok:

Quote from Hansard: "Was it a crime to use a generous gift which we received from the Bristol Company for the purchase of accommodation for a Young Officers' Club in Cadogan Gardens, which we had to close after eight years' service owing to the German business ?".

Stayed there half a dozen times between '52-'54. Did d/b&b for 18/6 (IIRC), the best value in London.....D.

MPN11,

Thanks ! Not much room for a paramedic plus patient, though. Now you mention it, I have heard of it being used for that purpose, but would think the Stinson Reliant (normally used for casevac) could get in/out of much the same tight spots that the Tiger could......D.

Warmtoast,

All right for some ! (War is Hell)...D

Cheers, all. Danny.

Warmtoast
1st Apr 2014, 20:43
Danny

"Paddy" (the Earl of) Bandon

Seen here as C-in-C FEAF on his first visit to RAF Gan, May 1958.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/AOCVisit3.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/AOCVisit2.jpg

...and here having a drink with his men. He insisted that no other officers were to be present so he could hear personally of any complaints.

I always regarded "The Abandoned Earl" as a leader who inspired confidence in his men who was regarded with affection by those under him.

Danny42C
1st Apr 2014, 21:24
While flying is in progress, it would be unreasonably onerous to require Crash 1,2 and 3 crews to spend the whole shift sitting in their vehicles, and the Crash Bays incorporate a Crew room where they can relax while waiting for the callout from ATC (the same is true of Civil Brigades, hence the "Fireman's pole" to speed a turn-out).

And of course, if a dangerous situation should develop, they will be ordered to "Standby", kit-up, man the trucks, move forward a few feet and remain with engines running ready for whatever may befall. Standby vehicles in the Station Fire Section will meanwhile be warned to come to readiness to move up to the Tower to replace the "First Team" if needed (which they cannot do if they are away putting out a garden fire in MQs).

As a general rule, it would be foolhardy in the extreme to lay on a practice "crash" for Crash 1,2 and 3 in flying hours: the crews know this and never expect such a thing to happen. I wondered: "what if ?..." SATCO assented, I had a word with Commander (A), we brought the Sqn. Commanders in on it, and picked a day. They subtly manipulated their sortie times so that for 20 minutes or so just before a lunchtime, there would be a gap when we had nothing in the air at all. Of course, as few people as were absolutely necessary were let into the plan and all sworn to secrecy.

We achieved complete surprise: "Practice Crash on airfield Area Delta Four - Vampire - two aboard - Go !" barked Local; a stopwatch clicked and they were away (I think we lit a flare at the spot, or something of the sort). Meanwhile the Sergeant and I stood guard on the Crewroom, for of course they'd had no time to secure jackets, wallets and other valuables in the rush to get out. Footwear of all descriptions littered the floor as they'd pulled on their Fireman's Boots. On almost ever chair and bunk was a paperback of some sort. The expected mix of Westerns, Whodunits, War stories, mysteries, lurid romances and bonkbusters. Except for one.

On this bunk lay a Penguin of Plato's "The Republic".

It put me in mind of Pte "T.E.Ross's" - or was it A/c "T.E.Shaw's" (?) tale, dimly in my memory from reading "The Mint" (?) as a boy many years before. In this Lawrence had recounted how he'd set out one weekend on his beloved Brough "Superior" (the bike on which he would one day be killed), to take some brass rubbings at an old country church (naturally with the prior permission of the incumbent).

The good old parson was somewhat nonplussed by the mismatch between his visitor's Oxford accent and the scratchy blue serge of the simple airman in front of him, and Lawrence relates how they were soon in companionable discussion over the comparative merits of Thucidides and Herodotus. I don't remember the exact quotation, but Lawrence rather waspishly remarks how he'd: "made a cockshy of the old man's assurance that the rough garb of the ranks concealed nothing but the baser instincts" (someone may be able to correct me on this).

Oh, by the way, we were rolling in 57secs. Not bad, considering there'd been no warning. (Crash 1 and 2 were told to "hold their fire" as soon as they reached the spot: they were back on the line in 5 minutes). We were in business again.

Goodnight, all.

Danny42C


You never know.

Geriaviator
2nd Apr 2014, 15:11
I've seen it many years ago, but it's as enthralling as ever: the BBC's affectionate tribute to the Avro Shackleton can be enjoyed at 'Perpetual Motion' The Avro Shackleton - YouTube

Fareastdriver
2nd Apr 2014, 15:28
Or 86,000lbs of deafening pandemodium.

Danny42C
2nd Apr 2014, 17:21
(Knowing nothing about them), weren't they also described as: "twenty thousand rivets flying in close formation ?"

Icare9
2nd Apr 2014, 21:12
Nice to see new arrivals such as ValMORNA and WWWop, so keep the stories flowing!
If ValMORNA needs any old friends looking up, I'm just round the corner. I see I wasn't the first when I suggested that our Branch (now defunct) of the RBL adopt the motto "The only Branch still on Active Service - we go into Battle every day!" which for unknown (ahem)reasons wasn't adopted!

I knew of the Fw190 raid and the bombs in the High Street and the Abbey Gatehouse, but not about the cricket pitch. Drop me a PM if you want me to say "Hi" to anyone.

As for blind pew and Cockney Steve and their memories, I was a Sarfender until only a few years ago, know Manners way and the prefabs very well. I was at the end of the approach by the A127 not far from the EKCO offices, watching Bristol Freighters scrape over the TV aerials as they staggered in to land, the TV used to be a bit of an approach radar, the faster the picture rolled, the closer to us they were.

That's what really got me into aviation interests, you couldn't help but become a plane spotter when they were literally only feet above you.

Shortly about to officially become an "Old Fart" so now taking up a voluntary post in the Local History Museum. What a life for a pensioner!

Union Jack
2nd Apr 2014, 22:57
Or 86,000lbs of deafening pandemodium.

Presumably a direct result of eating all those pies......:D

Jack

Fareastdriver
3rd Apr 2014, 09:24
I was told many years ago that a Shackleton had a medium KERRUMP the other side of the pond. It was adjudjed repairable so it was entrusted to Avro (Canada) to be rebuilt. This they did and when they skinned it was fixed in the North American system using flush rivets instead of the good old British domed variety.

This gave birth to the one and only GT Shackleton, Thia one could now go 25-30 knots faster than all of its siblings. No problems unless you used it as a formation leader.

mmitch
3rd Apr 2014, 09:50
The Shackleton Preservation Trust is working towards getting one airworthy again! Amongst the spares they appear to have a store room of all the paper work, vital if it is to fly!
Shackleton Preservation Trust - Home (http://www.avroshackleton.co.uk/)

camlobe
3rd Apr 2014, 12:54
Danny42C said "knowing nothing about them".

Danny, the AVRO Shackleton is the grandson of the Lancaster, powered by the greatest reciprocating aero engine ever produced by Rolls-Royce, the Griffon. The 'Shack' came in conventional (tail wheel) format, and tricycle. The later MR 2 and AEW II taildraggers had an AUW of approx 42 tons (British, you know), carried 3284 Imperial (British again) gallons of AVGAS, could fly for 18 to 24 hours (no air-to-air refuelling) depending on Mark and load, had cannons and a huge bomb bay, and served in the RAF front line for 40 years. The crew benefited from deep, sumptuous leather seats, ash trays, a fully equipped galley, an Elsan complete with privacy curtain. This venerable Queen of the Skies had performance optimised by fully retracting undercarriage and fly-by-wire...and chain, tubes and bell ranks, and enjoyed mild pressurisation...the holes at the front being larger than those at the rear. One felt at one with the environment...rain on your flying suit, and if sat in the nose gunners seat, snow on your boots. The Shack almost ended up with Napier Nomad flat-12 two-stroke diesels with contra-props and 4000 hp each...and a potential sortie duration in excess of 30 hours. Eeek.

The four-engined, eight-propellered, 10,000 horsepowered, tail-dragging example referred to by mmitch, is going to be restored to flight.

P.S. How do you know if you are conversing with a Shack co-pilot? He turns his left ear towards you. How do you know if you are talking to a Shack captain? You have to resort to sign language.

Not that I know anything about Shacks.

Camlobe

Danny42C
3rd Apr 2014, 18:42
camlobe,

Everything I wanted to know about Shackletons but was afraid to ask !

Thanks ! Danny.

Haraka
3rd Apr 2014, 19:28
The Shack almost ended up with Napier Nomad flat-12 two-stroke diesels with contra-props and 4000 hp each...and a potential sortie duration in excess of 30 hours.
An engine of which it was said within Napier's in the 50's , was just so efficient...it wouldn't run.

Danny42C
3rd Apr 2014, 20:10
If you can imagine an "ideal" Air Force (which in reality can never be), you might posit that the normal career in it would be from age 20 to 50, and that the Years of Birth of its members would be a smooth spread over the 30 years.

The RAF in 1946 consisted overwhelmingly of the wartime generation. There were comparatively few of the pre-war ones left in it. They had been small in number to begin with, most of them had been killed or captured, and the rare survivors had (deservedly) reached high rank.

I would wager that 90+ % of the rest had been born in the years between '19 and ' 23. Only a tiny minority would be outside this 5-year period. Over '45-'49 the RAF savagely contracted. When I was "demobbed" in'46, I think that there were 100,000 names in the Air Force List; when I came back in '49 it was down to about 10,000 (which would reflect, I suppose, a reduction in total strength from a million to around 100,000). So the post-war RAF was left with one/tenth of the cake - but it was still the same cake mix as in '45. They would have to fit this very square peg into the round hole of a peacetime (?) service.

All sorts of consequences would flow from this. Some were wholly beneficial. Almost everybody was ex-war; they'd brought the old wartime spirit of easy camerarderie along with them: it was still a case of "Not to worry - press on regardless". I wouldn't say that the old way was carefree, but at least your care was not about a "career" (rather, your "career goal" had been to stay alive - always subject to the Exigencies of the Service). The old "band of brothers" still lived on. It was "one for all, and all for one".

And it provided (for example) ideal candidates for the new Branches of ATC and Fighter Control: people who Knew What it was All About and could easily be moulded into these novel tasks without the necessity of ab initio training.

But there was a "Flip Side" to all this. Looking back to the horrific training loss statistics of the early '50s, it is easy to demonise the High Command for its scant regard for Flight Safety. But they were thinking with the mindset of '42-'44, when the only way to live with the figures was to put them out of mind. Callous as it may now sound, in those days there was no point in grief - it was simply: "c'ést la guerre" - and that was that. It was not until the mid-'50s that public opinion became aroused and the RAF had to accept that there was not an infinite supply of Bloggs (as there had been of Prunes), and they had better start looking after the ones they'd got.

But of course the real "Elephant in the Room" was the Age Block. Today it may not be always appreciated how young the wartime Air Force actually was. Of course, this has always been the case - for old men start wars, young men have to fight them. But in the war, Squadron Leaders of 21 were by no means unusual, Gibson (and others) was a Wing Commander at 23, there were 25 year old Group Captains, "Don" Bennett (the "Pathfinder" chief) made AVM at 33 - the youngest ever to reach that rank (having started as a Halton apprentice).

Nobody then grudged them their youthful ranks (and as these were mostly "acting", or at best "war substantive"), they went out of the window when hostilities ended. Even though nearly all those who stayed on (or who got back in) the Service, with the intention of making it their career, had to drop a rank or two, it did not help much. For now the "middle management" was largely set in place for the next twenty years or so, until the whole group was thinned-out from the mid-'60s onward by retirements.

It is with this in mind that I've tried to find one of my old Posts written (it ought to be somewhere aroung Page 165 on this Thread, but seems to have vanished - or did I dream it ?) It was about my first refresher Course in August'49 after coming back in. In this I described sharing a room at Finningley with a recent Cranwell graduate, who told me that it was the opinion of the directing staff at the College that: "we'll do no good with this Air Force until we get rid of all these old wartime people".

I remember Chugalug emphatically disassociating himself from these remarks, which on the face of it do look churlish and ungrateful in the extreme (and not particularly encouraging to "old" re-entrants like me). But now I can see that it is possible to regard them in a more charitable light. They may not have been made in a perjorative or contemptuous sense at all, but merely an acknowledgement of the consequential difficulties which had to arise.

Promotions would inevitably be much slower (or non-existent) for the "old brigade". For where would be the sense of replacing one old-timer with another who's going to retire 2-3 years after the first anyway ? The beneficial effects would accrue to the small number of new young people who managed to get in in the early post-war years (and of course to the much larger intake in the'60s), when it became increasingly obvious to the new ('64) Ministry of Defence that there wouldn't be a RAF soon unless they did something about it.

Don't misunderstand me: there is no element of "sour grapes" in this. The "Right Stuff" was as "Right" as ever it was: it cannot be held against it that it was lucky to be in the right place at the right time. Even the "base of the pyramid" benefited to some extent (viz the offer of a 5-year "extension" to me). But it cannot be denied: the'49 Cranwell conclusion was essentially correct.

I left in '72, pretty well in the middle of the clear-out of the "Old Guard". The new generation picked up the baton: they seem to have done pretty well with it.

That's it, folks.

Goodnight, chaps,

Danny42C.


The Old Order Changeth, Giving Place to New.

Chugalug2
3rd Apr 2014, 21:05
As you were kind enough to mention me in your post Danny I feel obliged to reply, though I must confess to have forgotten making the comments that you attribute to me (nothing new there though, I constantly marvel at your superb memory).

The point you make about the narrow age group that constituted the post war RAF is valid of course, and there would have been an inevitable, "Last man out please switch off the light" effect if nothing had been done. I suppose that 'events, dear boy, events' as ever had some effect, as the Cold War in particular reduced the peace time salami cuts that are so prevalent nowadays (and with a war going on, to boot). All I can say from my own observation is that those who were ex WW2 (easily identified of course from the ribbons they sported) were in the main excellent, be they JOs, SOs, or VSOs. The latter of course were celebrities in their own right, your AOC could be someone featured in a Paul Brickhill book, be he ex617, or a Stalag, or both!

What they all had in common was a joie de vivre at having simply survived, and a lack of interest in advancement purely for its own sake. That is the main difference I think between my days (1959-73) and what I read elsewhere of the situation these days. Even those SOs who were not exWW2 had been raised in an environment that was still much affected by it and hence adopted many of the attitudes of their forebears. I had some excellent bosses, but most were from this latter group.

The one big disadvantage was what you allude to, the passive acceptance of a large peacetime loss rate, particularly in the new jet fleets. That was when the Flight Safety system was established that I grew up with. It was all enveloping; Posters, Mags, Films, Campaigns, Displays, all pushing the mantra that "Flight Safety Concerns You!" The rate came down, avoidable accidents were avoided, and the RAF maintained its potential power instead of seeing it constantly whittled away. Above all lives were saved instead of being needlessly wasted. Here again I'm afraid things have changed and not for the better, but that is for other threads and not for this one, where we look back upon the best of all possible worlds from our virtual crewroom. Another log on the fire perhaps?

Flash2001
3rd Apr 2014, 21:11
I was in Cambridge in 1980 I think it was, and heard a most unusual noise. I looked up to see what I think was a Shackleton with what looked like an AN/APS 20 under the nose. Is this possible?

After an excellent landing etc...

camlobe
3rd Apr 2014, 21:43
Flash2001,

The Shackleton AEW II wasn't retired until 1991, and the radar system was an AN/APS 20, so I would say yes, not just possible but well spotted.

Camlobe

Union Jack
3rd Apr 2014, 21:59
It is with this in mind that I've tried to find one of my old Posts written (it ought to be somewhere around Page 165 on this Thread, but seems to have vanished - or did I dream it ?)

It neither vanished nor was a dream, Danny. Have a look at your Post 2842 and Chugalug's Post 2844 on Page 143 (according to my page numbering setting).:ok:

Jack

Danny42C
3rd Apr 2014, 22:59
Jack,

Spot on as usual ! My original Page 165 seems to have gone on quite a walkabout - thanks for tracking it down 12 pages away in Page 143 !....D.

Chugalug,

Seems that we are both suffering from Sporadic Memory Loss - I forgot where I put it, and you forgot having answered it ! (Ah well, comes to us all in time !).......D. :confused:

Cheers, both. Danny.

Pom Pax
4th Apr 2014, 06:55
and heard a different noise. I looked up to see what it was.
Blinked twice and it still was............ a Canberra lifting off out of Marshalls.
A few weeks later they were grounded for good.

MPN11
4th Apr 2014, 10:11
Danny at 5409 and Chugalug at 5410 ... your posts there inspired me to go and have a look at the old ATC Course photos in our secret “ATC Old & Bold" photo album, and kick some memory cells into life.

Up to around 1962, all the students in those photos seemed to have a flying badge of one sort on another, together with at least one row of ribbons from the 'recent bit of trouble'. The first 'lurking plt off' I spotted was in around '61 (subsequently gp capt, see below). And it remained that way for the next couple of years ... the very occasional plt off or a/plt off surrounded by wartime aircrew. Even in 65, when I went through CATCS, the course was roughly 1/3 each of wartime aircrew, post-war aircrew and a/plt offs. I assume this 'demographic bulge' applied in other Branches as well.

What it meant for us newbies was, of course, that all the senior posts in the Branch had already been filled. And our careers (beyond automatic promotion to flt lt) would remain on hold until “age wearied them” and the cork finally popped out of the bottle to make room for our generation. I remember talking to one of our handful of gp capts in the bar at Uxbridge in about 1974. He was waxing nostalgic at the time, and told me that he had been lying in his bath, as a recently promoted wg cdr, when he realised that in a couple of years time he would almost certainly be a gp capt … all the current incumbents were due to retire, as were most of the extant wg cdrs! And so it was to be!

As Danny noted in his post, the ‘clear out’ (or the bursting to that age bubble, as I prefer to think of it) created a whole new world for us kids! My generation were now making sqn ldr after 4-5 years as flt lts (to my personal delight) and the best of the early promotees soared though the ranks largely unhindered (to create another bulge!!). In such a small Branch, it was of course quite easy to keep track of things - my marked-up copy of the Air Force List acquired some notoriety :) But with roughly 150-170 sqn ldrs, 35-40 wg cdrs and 5 gp capts it was fairly easy to see who would (and wouldn’t) move up the ladder!

Were we a better generation? No, just different. My contemporaries and I at least had the benefit of working with/under the wartime generation - different attitudes in some areas, but invariably professional and with high standards that they instilled into we youngsters. They had been through the war, in the air, and knew what it was all about. My first mentor on OJT was a MPlt … a former a/sqn ldr on Typhoons who at War’s end was deemed unsuitable for holding a peacetime commission and to stay in the RAF was required to revert to Sgt Pilot! You can imagine he was not immensely tolerant of errors by baby plt offs straight out of the box! There were many others like Black Jack - they taught us our trade from a multi-faceted view on life, peace and war, air and ground. Not just ATCOs, of course - the people we controlled were frequently wartime too, and they helped our development with some ‘interesting’ conversations in the bar over a beer or two.

I’ve always believed they made us better. :ok:

papajuliet
4th Apr 2014, 14:03
Danny
Your post 5409 reminds me of the general who, after WW1, said " thank God that's over - now we can get back to proper soldiering".

Danny42C
4th Apr 2014, 22:06
MPN11,

I'm very grateful for all the kind things you've said about the age-block of "old hairies", whom you found hogging all the mid-ranks of the RAF when you arrived on the scene. And, of course, your experience bears out the general analysis of RAF manning which I submitted a few days ago.

A point of detail: maybe I'm of a naturally suspicious nature, but (as you wrote): "My first mentor on OJT * was a MPlt … a former a/sqn ldr on Typhoons who at War’s end was deemed unsuitable for holding a peacetime commission and to stay in the RAF was required to revert to Sgt Pilot".

A slight odour of fish hangs in the air. Did you see any evidence to support his story (a log book would do very well, or perhaps there were people who knew his history ?) It seems very strange to me - unless he'd been cashiered, that is ! (there have been cases in the past of officers who've had to leave their Service "under a cloud", but then allowed to enlist in the ranks.

Of course the fact of dropping from M/Plt # to Sergeant would not occasion any remark - I myself finished in '46 as a War Substantive Flt/Lt, very briefly A/S/Ldr. They gave me a VR commission as a F/O in '47 or '48, and in '49 offered me a SSC (8+4) in that rank. It was "par for the course" in those days.

Sadly, there are "Baron Munchausens" in our ranks. About 18 months ago, surfing the Threads, I came across a veteran of 95 (not on this, I hasten to add). At first I congratulated him on his great age ("hope for us yet", I said). Then I looked at his CV and did the sums. It seemed that he'd been flying Hawk Is at age 57. I gently suggested that there might have been some mistake somewhere. He didn't reply and was never seen again (not on that Thread, at least !)

* BTW, What is an OJT ? :confused: Cheers, Danny.

EDIT: # I seem to have got a bit mixed up here myself. Of course, he would have progressed from Sergeant to Master Pilot when he came back in after the war. If he had been "shooting a line" (as I suspect), then he would probably have been demobbed in '46 as a Warrant Officer.

ricardian has answered my query (*) above. But I'm still a bit curious about the nature of the "on the job training" in which you were mentored by the M/Plt. What job ? Could it have been ATC ? Or was it earlier, before you came into the Branch ? (By a curious coincidence, I have earlier related how, at the end of the five months I spent kicking my heels waiting for a jet conversion [after coming back in and doing a month's refresher], I spent a month in Binbrook ATC as a supernumerary. I suppose you could regard that as a kind of "on the job training".....D.

Danny42C
4th Apr 2014, 22:11
papajuliet,

In the same vein: "This ATC would be a wonderful job - if only we could get rid of these damned aeroplanes !" :ok:

Danny.

ricardian
4th Apr 2014, 22:51
Danny - in my day OJT was "On the Job Training"

MPN11
5th Apr 2014, 08:58
haha ... I had no reason to doubt Jack Meachin's story. He may have had faults, but I don't think he was a bullsh***er. The only thing I can't recall was whether he had a DFC or a DFM.

He was a burly, dark-chinned Australian with all the 'robustness' of the Outback. A bit like 'Desperate Dan', only shorter and broader! Forceful when necessary, he was nevertheless a very good mentor. As he told me, at the end of the War he wanted to stay in the RAF. However, "they" decided that he just wasn't the sort of chap they wanted as a officer ... but would allow him to carry on flying if he rejoined as a sgt pilot. So he did, rose to MPlt (perhaps he benefited from the 'wastage' of other WW2 guys?) ... and eventually became an ATCO.

One of the quirks of the Branch back then was that Master Aircrew in ATC could do Approach, but Warrant Officers couldn't!! So WO Gordon Yates, with years of ATC experience behind him as a SNCO/WO, was confined to Local, whilst MPlt Jack sat downstairs as Approach and DATCO (Duty ATCO, and i/c Watch) ... including oversight of the young officers who were in the GCA truck on the other side of the airfield :confused:

But then pilots are all-powerful and omniscient, and can do absolutely anything :ok:

Geriaviator
5th Apr 2014, 09:28
Further to MPN's story of the ex-Typhoon pilot reduced to sgt. My father's Canadian friend Bob Nash on 9 Sqn at Binbrook 1950-51 had served two tours on Lancasters, ending the war as Flt Lt. A grateful nation granted his wish to continue flying, providing he dropped rank to F/Sgt. and the pension that went with it.

My father was more cross about this than Bob himself. But then Bob was an easygoing fellow who seemed happy enough when given his Lincoln WS-D for his time at Binners, in between taking this small boy for exciting Sunday mornings learning cockpit drill in the real thing :8

Fareastdriver
5th Apr 2014, 09:34
What it meant for us newbies was, of course, that all the senior posts in the Branch had already been filled. And our careers (beyond automatic promotion to flt lt) would remain on hold until “age wearied them” and the cork finally popped out of the bottle to make room for our generation.

When I was a young pilot in 1962 I was being shown the ropes on the station Anson by a knarled old Master Pilot. When descibing the limitations of it he mentioned its usefullness in mitigating the above problem.

When things started to go wrong then you are in it to your neck. You don't have the power to get over it, the range to get round it or the speed to run away from it. The Welsh hills and the Lake District bear silent witness to innumerable disasters where things have gone wrong. It has its uses though, because when they crash they normally have a high proportion of senior officers on board so it is useful way of clearing out bottlenecks on the promotion ladder.

Chugalug2
5th Apr 2014, 10:52
Fareastdriver, I remember walking those Welsh hills as a CCF cadet on a course based at Bangor. Every day we were given a new set of co-ordinates, always near the top of another hill. Every day we found the remains of yet another CFIT accident, where we tried to identify the type involved, or at least whether it was big, small, or inbetween. They never ran short of co-ordinates!

Geriaviator, and indeed everyone else. If by chance you haven't caught this OP re WW2 Aldergrove, it is fast sinking into the PPRuNe bottomless pit. Worth a look:-
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/537375-ww2-rare-raf-aldergrove-colour-film-found.html

MPN11, my ab initio mentor (QFI in my case) was a Master Pilot, 'Big Daddy' Bright. A man of infinite patience, he relieved much of the anxiety of the 'am I ever going to see this through OK' type. I have his signature on a framed cartoon on my study wall showing a mother crow kicking out a chick from the nest, dated 13 March 1961; first solo at Barkston Heath. He took great pleasure in telling me that as a Master Pilot his day was done when he finished flying, and that as a Pilot Officer mine would be just starting!

Pom Pax
5th Apr 2014, 13:53
Could it be that the re-musters mentioned were never in the R.A.F. and as members of R.A.A.F. and R.C.A.F. could not be transferred?
Probably destroyed my own argument as a quick google shows
Roy Max as short service commission R.A.F. Aug '38 - July '43
R.N.Z.A.F. as squadron leader
1947 permanent commission in the RAF as flight lieutenant
Jan '60 promoted to Group Captain. A rank he had had as co of 75(NZ) in '44.

n.b. As 5 year old in '43 "Maxie" was my hero airman.

MPN11
5th Apr 2014, 14:16
That prodded me to search for Jack's awards ... Not listed for DFC or DFM, so I assume my memory is blurred.

There was an SAC in the guardroom at Manby in 65 with a pilot's brevet and a rack of medals, though. As I heard it, he didn't re-adapt to Civvy life and just rejoined as a TAG (Trade Assistant General). So many odd anomalies around in those days, of course.

Haraka
5th Apr 2014, 15:08
MPN11 , I think we have been round this pole before.... Ex WW2 Sgt. Mustang Pilots as 1960's SAC Dental Techs etc....

MPN11
5th Apr 2014, 18:03
Missed that one, Haraka ...

Back to Danny42C ;)

Danny42C
5th Apr 2014, 19:35
MPN11, Geriaviator and Pom Pax,

There may well have been a bias against letting "Wild Colonial Boys" back into our more (?) gentlemany Air Force, while at the same time we were kicking our own people out left, right and centre. But your Jack Meachin, as an A/S/L, would have been in command of his Typhoon squadron, and that must have counted for something. It shouldn't be too hard for our in-house IT experts to get hold of a '46 Air Force List (or would the RAAF have a separate one of their own) - and trace him. Do we know his Sqdn No. ? If so, there must be an ORB we can get hold of.....D.

Fareastdriver and Chugalug,

Snowdonia was one big graveyard of war and post-war crashes. Most of the remains have been found and recovered for burial, but while I was at Valley some climbers came across a whitened skull. Instead of quickly burying it and keeping quiet about it, they took it to the police. Of course the Coroner then had to be informed, the bureaucratic machine swung into action and the affair rumbled on for months. What was worse, the skull was never identified (AFAIK), so the families who'd lost loved ones on these mountains had to suffer even more pain.

Chugalug, your Master Pilot was right. Paid at least half as much again as a new P/O, no Mess Bills of any size, uniform free, living as comfortably as (and probably eating much better) than in the OM, and no responsibilities after "DCO", he was well placed....D

MPN11 and Haraka,

Yes, I recall a Cpl (I think he was in ATC) with double wings and war ribbons. Of course, he may have been found medically unfit for aircrew when coming back after the war, or there may have been other reasons.....D.

Cheers, everybody. Danny

Fareastdriver
6th Apr 2014, 09:42
Master Pilot was right. Paid at least half as much again as a new P/O

A corporal got more than a Pilot Officer aircrew. When I was a P/O. my net salary was £45/month, a corporal was on £11/week. On overseas detachments my Local Overseas Allowance in Malaya was 1/8 per day against 1/9 for a Senior Aircraftsman.

The only comfort I had was that the rest of my crew, all married, lost their Ration Allowance when overseas and the LOA didn't make up for it.

MPN11
6th Apr 2014, 14:24
I do recall with crystal clarity (although sadly I have lost the documentation) when on the GCA course in 66 ... my pay was £52/10/0 and my Mess Bill was £54/12/6 :uhoh:

Wander00
6th Apr 2014, 14:41
I recall having a student at IOT who was told on Monday he had "failed to reach the standard required for commissioning (which was no surprise to him, he had tried to VW the week before)", and by Friday was a sgt, earning more than the APO's h had left behind

MPN11
6th Apr 2014, 15:50
Ahhh, Wander00, but never forget the potential pay ceiling ... Without actually needing an Air Marshal's baton in the old knapsack, the future earning (and pension) potential makes that a transitory advantage :cool:

Wander00
6th Apr 2014, 16:29
Aah, but he played it cool and was back at the Towers about 5 years later and graduated.

Fareastdriver
6th Apr 2014, 16:43
In the mid-sevnties the goverment introduced a minimum wage where if somebody was earning, according to circumstances, less that this amount he could claim extra off the taxpayer.

Severe consternation at Odiham when a married ATC pilot officer's claim came through.

To ease our dire financial straights we dug up a section near the squadron and planted various vegetables etc, therebye creating an allotment. In went the pea sticks followed by the peas and we waited. The peas came up, were eaten by the rabbits and the pea sticks blossomed with leaves all over the place.

Danny42C
6th Apr 2014, 18:17
Fareastdriver et al,

In March '42, I became a Sgt/Pilot on 13/6 a day. I think a P/O on probation had to make do with 11/10 (and no Flying Pay in those days).

A well trained little terrier will abate the rabbit menace. Flowers look nice too. And rabbit pie is delicious (just like chicken !). Big rabbits faster, so mostly get away from dog, little ones not so quick, good doggie catches and kills 'em, brings 'em home by scruff of the neck (flesh more tender). :ok:

Probably illegal now (or at least Politically Incorrect).

Danny.

gzornenplatz
6th Apr 2014, 22:00
When I joined as an apprentice (Trenchard brat) in 1956 I was paid £!.00 per week. this went up rapidly (The biggest proportional pay rise I ever received) to 31/6 a week, most of which was held back as "credits" paid in big white fivers when I went on leave. I discovered many new and interesting ways of throwing up in posh cocktail bars on my first Christmas leave.

Danny42C
6th Apr 2014, 22:26
gzornenplatz,

Your: "When I joined as an apprentice (Trenchard brat) in 1956 I was paid £!.00 per week. this went up rapidly."

It had certainly gone up rapidly since '41. I had to get by on 14/- (less stoppages) a week as an A/c 2. :(

Posh cocktail bars not an option. Happy Days !

Danny.

Danny42C
7th Apr 2014, 00:32
By now we were fairly well settled in Breighton. The quarter was large and comfortable; with a large garden and surrounding farmland, it was ideal for Mary (now 3 years old, and with the stabilisers off her bike) and a lively little terrier to play with. We fell into a routine. I would go off to Linton in the Isetta (except for night flying), leaving the 403 to Mrs D. to go shopping in the village (Bubwith), or to Selby (8 miles), once or twice to Howden (5 miles), and sometimes to York (15 miles).

On first moving in, we found that our mattress in the bedroom had a delve so that Mrs D. and I tended to roll together in the middle. We didn't mind this at all, but our sleep patterns were becoming disrupted by this circumstance, so I put in a demand for a replacement to the Barrack Warden at Linton. For some reason that I cannot now recall, we could have a new mattress - no problem at all. The only difficulty was: he couldn't get any transport to get it out to us. DIY seemed the only solution.

Once again it fell to my lot to provide entertainment to the good burghers of York as they witnessed the spectacle of our 403 going through with a double mattress (in plastic cover, luckily) lashed precariously to the roof rack. Of course, the overhang front and rear gave the impression of a giant mushroom and restricted my vision to a certain extent. However, it didn't fall off and the mission was successfully accomplished.

One morning (I don't know how it happened), I went off with the Isetta with the (only) garage door key in my pocket. And of course with the 403 inside the said garage ! After exhausting the possibilities of every Yale key she could find, Mrs D. set out to pick the lock. For this purpose she chose a very small rat-tail file I had in the house (and was rather fond of), and set to work.

Of course it was inevitable. She was still locked out, but now with about 3/16in of broken file jammed in the lock. When I returned at lunchtime (for of course I couldn't abandon my ATC watch to take the key back), and the recriminations had subsided, I set to work with my trusty Black & Decker (luckily in the house) to drill the lock barrel out - the task not made any easier by the chunk of tool steel in the way. Eventually I succeeded, a new lock would not break the bank, and all was harmony once more.

Per contra, I returned one lunchtime to find I hadn't the house key, and they'd all gone out to the shops. I reconnoitred the house carefully - sure enough a side kitchen window wasn't quite closed. Rather more supple and agile then than I am now, I climbed in onto the (cleared) draining board, and into the kitchen. No crockery broken. Meanwhile our brave watch-dog contented herself with doing just that - watching carefully with cocked head without uttering a sound. "Fat lot of use you are !", I told "Sally", "what do we pay you for ?"

In truth she was not a valiant animal. One of our walks took us round a corner by a farm. I think it was arable, but as an anti-rat measure they had a trio of farm cats. And these were not the gentle, lovable pussies you see on the catfood ads. "Sally" was terrified of them, and with good reason. For that matter, I didn't like the look of them much myself: we crossed over to the far side of the lane as we went past, and "Sally" (otherwise not a particularly obedient dog) would hug my heels, making herself as small and unobtrusive as possible, and carefully keeping me between herself and these creatures. None of the three were particularly prepossessing, but the "Boss Cat" (an enormous, shaggy, long-haired tortoiseshell brute) looked fully capable of ripping - and more than willing to rip - my jugular out at a single claw-stroke.

Not all the local fauna were so alarming. One morning we awoke to find a donkey quietly grazing the front "lawn". It was a gentle animal (might possibly have been resting from summer duty on Scarborough or Bridlington sands). Obviously well looked after, it was docile and amenable, and accepted a carrot with good grace.

"Shoo !" we said. It turned sad eyes on us and stood its ground, making it perfectly clear that it would co-operate in every way but one - it wouldn't move an inch ! But we got on to the local constabulary: it seemed that this animal was well known locally for going AWOL and sampling front lawns in this way. I had to go on watch, when I got back the owner had collected it (with apologies).

Goodnight, all.

Danny42C.


"The Lord God made them all", (but the Devil slipped one or two in when He wasn't looking).

andyl999
7th Apr 2014, 07:31
I have been contacted by one of Reg's daughters and advised that Reg's memoirs are going to be published by that company named after South American river (From Night Flak to Hijack: It's a Small World: Amazon.co.uk: Captain Reginald Levy DFC, Alex Schiphorst: Books)

It's called "From Night Flak to Hijack"


She wanted me to post and advise Reg's (Regle) friends on PPRUNE.


Adieu Andy

ricardian
7th Apr 2014, 09:04
andyl999 - I suspect quite a few folks on pPrune will be buying the book

Union Jack
7th Apr 2014, 10:54
This should prove an outstanding tribute to an outstanding aviator of blessed memory on this priceless thread.

Thank you Andy.:ok:

Jack

RFCC
7th Apr 2014, 12:04
Just pre-ordered. Thanks for the heads-up. :ok:

LowNSlow
7th Apr 2014, 12:54
and another one pre-ordered.

Danny, when are you going to compile your posts into a book???? :ok:

Molemot
7th Apr 2014, 13:02
Another pre-order here...I have already made a file of all Regle's contributions, and look forward very much to reading his book!!

Madbob
7th Apr 2014, 13:09
Another pre-order made! Delivery date 12 Jan 15.....

Hopefully it will be sooner than that! Thanks for the heads-up.

Madbob

andyl999
7th Apr 2014, 13:45
Gentlemen, I forgot to say that I have seen Reg's original work but as you can probably see one of Reg's grandchildren has edited it and filled in some gaps.


I also will buy a copy, Reg seemed to have a talent to write interesting reading matter. When I first read it I realised that in one section it was Reg describing his first operation in a Mosquito attacking a German airfield in Holland, I am guessing that he was 19 or 20 yrs old, his WC got lost and Reg alone went in 3 times to make sure that his bombs landed accurately, obviously the German gun aimers improved each time, his description had no element of boasting in it.


He was "The Real Deal" and left a lifetime impression on me......Andy

Fareastdriver
7th Apr 2014, 14:54
Pre-ordered.

Danny42C
7th Apr 2014, 21:56
LowNSlow, (and plenty of top rudder on the corners ?) - your #5444 refers

I'm nowhere near the end yet (another nine years and two more stations to go) - and: "Ars Longa, Vita Brevis" applies with ever-increasing force as the days go by.

Reg's book is now at the top of my List, and I hope it goes well, but I fear that WWII books may have saturated the market; the present generations much preferring footballers as "heroes" rather than the real thing.

Reg (RIP) would have said what I say; the job was there; it was up to us to do it; and so we did; and that's all.

Danny.

Danny42C
9th Apr 2014, 17:11
York is, of course, absolutely packed with history for those who have the time and inclination to go after it. Ghost stories abound. For that matter, ghost stories are not uncommon on RAF Stations, particularly on the ex-operational airfields from WWII, although I suspect an ulterior motive may play a part in their continued persistence. Perhaps the best known in our part of the world is the Middleton (Teesside Airport) Ghost, but there are others; Leeming had (still has ?) its No.1 Hangar Ghost, too.

I keep an open mind. I have never seen a ghost yet (but never is a long time), and am generally sceptical. But there are some stories for which the corroborative evidence is so strong that it almost compels belief. The one I have in mind is now 60 years old, so it may be new to anyone under the age of 70.

York Minster (the largest Gothic cathedral in Europe) was in the hands of the Benedictines for six hundred years up to the Reformation, which it survived, although the great Cistercian foundations in North Yorkshire (Fountains, Rievaulx, Byland, Mount Grace) were destroyed by Henry's Commissioners and are now only picturesque ruins. However, it is not the magnificent Minster which is the subject of this tale, but the Treasurer's House in the Cathedral precincts.

There are many versions (and Google has a whole selection to choose from), but the basic story is always much the same and I will tell it as I heard it (to the best of my recollection, but nearly a lifetime ago). In the Treasurer's House there was a large cellar. It was not at all a "spooky" sort of place: it was quite well lit - the sort of "games room" in which you might find a snooker or table-tennis table. Along one wall were the junction boxes for the house wiring, and on them an electrician was busy working.

The first thing he heard was a distant sound, a single note, which he later compared to an ineptly played bugle (had he been in the Army - or in the Scouts ?) Then it sounded again, but this time much louder and closer.

Suddenly from one end wall there emerged a man in tattered greenish rags and leather, wearing a sword, and mounted on a shaggy farm-horse, who appeared to be the leader of some score of following foot soldiers similarly dressed and armed with pikes. This ghostly platoon shambled the length of the cellar in absolute silence - the petrified electrician, pressed hard against the wall, noted that there was no attempt to keep step; they were dirty, scruffy and seemed utterly exhausted.

Although he was close enough to reach out and touch them (had he dared), they appeared not to see him at all, but vanished through the opposite wall. There was one more faint "call", and that was all.

A gruesome peculiarity of these apparitions was this: all their feet up to calf level (and the horse's fetlocks) appeared to have been cut off: it was if they were walking on the remaining stumps without the slightest trace of pain or difficulty.

Needless to say, the terrified electrician shot out of the cellar, resolutely refused to return (somebody else had to go back for his toolkit), told his story, and applied (successfully) to join the York Police Force (so he must have been of good character).

All the antiquarians, psychics and historians in York were on to this like wasps on ripe plums. The green "uniforms" rang the first bell. These were recorded as being worn not by Roman soldiers, but by some form of local "levies" of around 400 AD - a fact very unlikely to be known by a simple electrician. Then they tried him on various musical instruments: he identified the sounds he'd heard as a ram's horn. It was all checking out nicely.

But the truncated limbs were inexplicable - until they took the bull by the horns and applied to the Consistory Court for permission to excavate the cellar floor. Fifteen inches down they uncovered previously unknown Roman paving, which had become buried over the course of the centuries.

Game, set and match ! That's it. Believe it or not as you wish.

Sleep well, :eek:

Danny42C


"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy" (Hamlet ?)

Hempy
10th Apr 2014, 06:20
http://www.ciaranbrown.com/martindale.html

The plumber himself, in his own words

LowNSlow
10th Apr 2014, 11:29
Danny, a lot of my youngest daughter's peers seem to be interested in WW1 and 2 these days.

My daughter upset the local priest when she was about 6 or 7. We had been to see her Grandad who had made a comment about the newly elected Pope probably having shot at him during his tour on Halifaxes.
The following weekend at Sunday school the priest asked the assembled kids what they thought of the new Pope.
"I don't like him, he tried to kill my Grandad" pipes up the young LowNSlowette!
Cue choking sounds from wife!

teeteringhead
10th Apr 2014, 11:53
"Ars Longa, Vita Brevis" I heard a tale (I hope true) that this Latin tag was adopted as a motto on the Coat of Arms of an aristocratic family .......



........ name of Longbottom! ;)

Obviously got past the Chester Herald or whoever vets these things - I just hope it's true.

Danny42C
10th Apr 2014, 15:19
Hempy,

Thanks for the link. Have tried it, but it won't play. Probably just me !

My electrician was a plumber in one of the Google versions. Is that the connection ?...D


LowNSlow,

"Out of the mouths of Babes !" But Grandad was a bit "off Beam" if referring to the present chap, who is an Argentinian. But if he had WWII in mind, then Eugene Pacelli (Pius XII) was an Italian and so (unjustly) tarred with Il Duce's brush.....D.


teeteringhead,

Another version has it that an irreverent wag, visiting a cemetery, passed a gravestone recording the untimely passing of a three-year old child of that name, and could not resist the unseemly quotation....D.

Cheers all, Danny.

thing
10th Apr 2014, 19:11
I keep an open mind. I have never seen a ghost yet

My father died three years ago. A few weeks after his funeral at about 3 o' clock in the afternoon after tidying up the garden I was boiling the kettle for a cuppa when the phone rang. It was my Dad...he said 'Nah then lad, I just want to tell yer I'm OK and not to worry.'

I said the most stupid thing as my mind tried to work out what the hell was happening...'Dad, aren't you supposed to be dead?' 'Oh aye' he said 'but ah'm reet as rain, dun't go worrying owd cock.' Then the phone went dead. It was without a doubt my Dad, the way he spoke to me, the phrasing, it was him. I'm not religious, don't believe in ghosts, flying saucers or any of that guff. Still trying to figure out what happened. My wife heard my side of the conversation as well as she was in the kitchen with me.

Chugalug2
11th Apr 2014, 10:21
thing, thank you for your thought provoking post, not least because it takes some true grit to recount a story that many no doubt will find unbelievable. Rather like tales of UFO sightings (which colleagues of mine reported while flying through a deserted London TMA at 0 something hundred. They were whisked away to the MOD the next day, and had 'no comment' to add to their previously told tale upon their return), aviators are very wary of postulating stuff 'of which we have no ken'.

Danny, I have heard before of Roman soldiers sighted minus their lower extremities, marching seemingly down the original Fosse Way, which of course lies below present ground level.

One of the most intriguing recollections though was aired on Woman's Hour once. A lady had flash backs of previous existences and agreed to go under hypnosis. She was then asked where she was, and replied that it was on the lower gun deck of a ship that she named. It turned out to be a British ship-of-the-line during the Napoleonic Wars. What was her job? It was as a member of a gun crew. What did that entail? She ran through a precise description of the drill and of her part in it.

Afterwards the details were passed to Greenwich for their comments. They were amazed, as it fitted entirely with their understanding of the rapidity with which the Royal Navy could fire, reload, and fire again, while the French were still reloading. They'd had no precise detail of the drill though until that point, and demanded to know where it came from. Their reaction to the source was much as we always receive such tales, but if it was not genuine how come it passed muster?

Wwwop
11th Apr 2014, 11:55
Wwwop’s daughter here. Apologies for the delay in replying to your posts. Although Mum uses a computer and iPad, this is the first time she has been on a forum. She sends me (in the UK) her copy and I format and then post it on her behalf. Here’s the second chapter:

Thanks for the responses and thanks also for the offer of drinks. We come over to the UK regularly so who knows.....
It would be difficult to put into words all the events of my nearly four years as a guest of His Majesty. Mind you, some of it perhaps would be better left unsaid! I simply tried to keep my initial post relevant.

I guess I joined the WAAF because a) there was a long waiting list for the Wrens b) I preferred the WAAF uniform to that of the ATS and c) I thought life would be more varied and interesting with the RAF.

@ricardian – sorry, I don’t remember any names of the instructors, if indeed we were ever told them. We were based in the Winter Gardens.

@Warmtoast – thanks for the photos. The first one looks familiar. I don’t think a lot of thought had gone into deciding what we should wear in the tropics. We’ve mentioned the hats. There were heavy black lace up shoes (as seen in the photos), starched Aertex shirts, warm winceyette pyjamas and elastic-legged passion killer unmentionables. We envied the Wrens with their light kit.

We were supposed to know how radios worked, how to take them apart and reassemble them. I doubt whether many of us could do all that. I have forgotten many of the technical terms but still remember my Morse. Chugalug2, I was not working in Records but did have contact with them when sending messages regarding crew etc.

For those interested in S/Ldr Birchall, there is are many online sites about him and a book by Michael Tomlinson called ‘The Most Dangerous Moment.’ It contains excellent references to the beginnings of the civil war in Ceylon/Sri Lanka.

One of my recollections of Changi is that we were invited by the Army to a game of hockey only to find that, on our arrival, it was an all male team. We played on hard baked, grassless earth. We gave them a run for their money mainly, I suspect, because most of them had very little familiarity with a hockey stick or the rules of the game. The usual festivities followed.

I expect the Hong Kong Shanghai Bank building is now a gleaming multi storied skyscraper. We worked out of the fourth floor of the HKSB building in 1944/45. After a few weeks, I was moved to try my hand at.. er...poetry:

I really, really cannot thank
The guy who built the Hong Kong Bank
Why didn’t he install some lifts
So when we go on to our shifts
Instead of climbing all those stairs
We’d be whisked up into our chairs
Sound of wind and limb
And so – NO thanks to him!

M.

NutLoose
11th Apr 2014, 15:56
I was in Cambridge
and heard a different noise. I looked up to see what it was.
Blinked twice and it still was............ a Canberra lifting off out of Marshalls.
A few weeks later they were grounded for good.


But is flying again in the Civi world :) Can't keep a good bird down

Haraka
11th Apr 2014, 16:22
Chug.
Aircrew were castigated for reporting "Lightning" that appeared to flash up into space from clouds. All technically impossible of course.
Now "Sprites" are a recognized and accepted phenomenon scientifically, following some eventual investigation and a rethink.
Same with some UFO sightings. Eventually a reasoned explanation can be found in many cases, although the U.K. MoD has ceased investigations as "no threat" is perceived.
Which seems to be similar to the French Academy of Sciences :"As there are no stones in the sky , stones cannot fall from the sky" of yore.
The study of UFO's (now UAP - Unexplained Aeronautical Phenomena) should be widely separated from links to "Flying Saucers", which is an explanation needing a justification - where none exists.
I would maintain that formal UAP investigation should continue in the U.K. ,although reasonably outside of the MoD.and perhaps along the lines of the French investigation who have a funded body called GEIPAN, (Groupe d'études et d'informations sur les Phénomènes Aérospatiaux Non identifiés ) which is under the remit of CNES, the French National Space Agency.

MPN11
11th Apr 2014, 18:48
Hmmm ... Lightning.

So there I am, sat in Local at Tengah when there's a lightning strike on the tower. My hand/finger is hovering near the Tx switch on the minicomms panel where it emerges. Missed me by less than an inch!

... and lightning can go up as well as down ;)

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/FlyerTalk/P1020936.jpg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/FlyerTalk/P1020936.jpg.html)

Danny42C
11th Apr 2014, 21:38
thing,

Without wishing to appear facetious, did you try 1471 ? Now it occurs to me that your Dad was probably not a "silver surfer" (on line) - very few of our generation are - and so the phone was the acme of technology for him.
Now supposing he had been, might you have got a PM or an e-mail ? It's a thought, isn't it ? Might have a go myself when/if opportunity offers - shouldn't be all that long now !...D.

Chugalug,

Once again I must credit you with the Second Sight. It so happens that, if my tale reaches my last Station (Leeming), there is a Post in mind: "Danny and the Night of the UFO". But of course you would not expect me to shoot that fox yet, now would you !

I've heard that particular "reincarnation" story, I think. Wasn't that the one when the lady recalled being a lad in the gun crew whose task as the "match-boy"(?) was to keep twirling the "slow-match" (the slow-burning fuse rope), so that the end would be bright hot for the gunner to apply to the touch-hole and so be sure of an instant "fire" ?.....D.

MPN11,

Your lucky day ! Can't be sure, but doesn't lightning always flash from earth to cloud ? (and of course from cloud to cloud). Have been struck myself a couple of times in the air in the monsoon, but no damage - although the flash was frightening at the time ! There is YouTube footage of an airliner being repeatedly struck on approach over London (with no apparent adverse effects), but I cannot trace the link...D.

Cheers, all. Danny

thing
12th Apr 2014, 07:46
Without wishing to appear facetious, did you try 1471 ? Now it occurs to me that your Dad was probably not a "silver surfer" (on line) - very few of our generation are - and so the phone was the acme of technology for him.
Now supposing he had been, might you have got a PM or an e-mail ? It's a thought, isn't it ? Might have a go myself when/if opportunity offers - shouldn't be all that long now !...D.


Did all that Danny including checking the phone record. There was no phone call recorded at that time but both the wife and I heard the phone ring, she was standing about five feet away from me. Dad was a bit of a Luddite so no internet, no mobile phone or basically anything more advanced than 1970 I would think. He even drove British cars to the last. High technology to him was a fridge freezer.

I'm quite willing to accept that it was a halucination, he'd only been dead about four weeks so it was obviously still on my mind. It's the fact that both the wife and I heard the phone ring which is the difficult one. I still don't believe in ghosts by the way...:)

Chugalug2
12th Apr 2014, 08:16
Danny, to rain once on your parade may be regarded as a misfortune, to do so again looks like carelessness, and I must once more beg your indulgence. I shall await your tale of Leeming without mentioning the U word again!

I think you are right about the match-boy, your neurons will outclass mine any day! The detail of the entire gun drill (not just her/his own) was what so impressed those at the National Maritime Museum.

Haraka
12th Apr 2014, 08:20
Just to clarify. "Sprites" are not actually lightning, being more akin to a neon tube discharge.

5000 metres
12th Apr 2014, 14:51
thing:

very strange, and in its eerie impossibility it reminds me of an incident about a year ago. btw, i'm a cognitive psychologist and a good portion of my research involves debunking overly exuberant research claims.

my wife and i were moving from one city to another and had posted an 8.5 x 11" flier outside our local supermarket advertising some items for sale. along the bottom of the flyer were tear-off tabs with our phone number on them.

one day after the flier had been up for a week or so we visited the supermarket. walked past the flier, paused for a few good long seconds and observed that one tab at the bottom had been torn off. both my wife and i observed and commented.

did our business at the market, left, walked again past the flier. all of the tabs were intact. again, both my wife and i saw this, and of course we then carefully examined the flier and verified the intactness, i.e. that nothing had been removed and replaced.

we'd only posted that one flier, so the unlikely possibility of substitution of fliers is definitive excluded...

anyway, what's the explanation? either unfathomable quantum weirdness (ha ha) or consensual hallucination...which seems to be the case in your example as well.

best,
5000

Danny42C
12th Apr 2014, 17:15
thing,

Beats me ! Your checks also put out of court a hideous possibility that I thought better not to mention before - the most cruel practical joke imaginable (voices are notoriously easy to mimic) ....D.

5000 metres,

Welcome aboard this noble Thread ! Don't go away now ! To quote one of your (fictional) professional colleagues in "Fawlty Towers" - a British TV serial comedy of the 70's - "There's enough material here for a whole Conference !"....D.

Cheers, both. Danny.

Petet
12th Apr 2014, 20:30
Sorry to interject, but I am trying to understand the training schedule for bomber squadrons post WWII


My understanding is that prior to the war, training, in principle was individual training during Autumn / Winter months followed by squadron exercises during Spring and Summer.


Now that the thread has moved on from WWII training, could anyone give an insight into a squadron's year; if anyone has any training schedules / programmes (inter-war and/or post war) that they think would be useful I would love to hear from you.


Any help would be much appreciated.


Regards


Pete


(Researching the history of 35 Squadron)

thing
12th Apr 2014, 23:21
consensual hallucination...which seems to be the case in your example as well. Probably the case. I remember a TV programme some years ago that filmed a religious group who were having a mass hallucination of (I think, it was a while ago) a vision of the Virgin Mary in the sky. Of course the camera picked up nothing at all. However to the subject the event is very real, so when people say they see ghosts, aliens etc apart from the attention seekers and nutjobs that are out there, I'm sure that there are people who genuinely believe what they saw was real. Which then begs the question exactly what is reality? But then I'm probably talking to an expert in that sort of thing!

Anyway, back to WWII...:)

Haraka
13th Apr 2014, 06:09
thing.
The event at Fatima in Portugal in IIRC 1922 involved tens of thousands in such a phenomenon. "The Sun moved backwards in the sky" etc.

Danny42C
13th Apr 2014, 16:35
thing,

It all goes back to Pilate's two-thousand year old question: "What is Truth ?"

D.

MPN11
13th Apr 2014, 17:25
The Truth lies with JSP318, AP3024 and AP3357. And other new stuff.

All else is Man's desire to spread his wings and fly, un-encumbered. But the Flying Prevention Branch will rule, within regulated airspace.

Just saying ;)

Danny42C
13th Apr 2014, 22:58
'63 had been a cold Christmas at Breighton: we looked forward to a warmer one in '64 and then to whatever the RAF might have in store for us in the spring of '65. Apart from a few problems with the quarter, not a great deal more happened there worthy of note.

One serious matter troubled us - we had a Septic Tank, for of course there was no main drainage so far out in the sticks. When these work properly they are inoffensive enough, but an essential component is the top soakaway drain, which naturally needs a gentle decline as it travels away underground for 30-50 feet away from the house. Unfortunately the builders had been holding the drawings upside down, or something of the sort, for the pipe slowly rose upwards in our case (making it worse than useless).

The result was that the system regularly flooded, and needed a pump-out by the honeywagon every few weeks (instead of once or twice a year), or the house would be floating in a lake of sewage. And that was not the worst of it. The concrete top cover proved not to be as solid as it looked. One day in late summer Mary was playing one afternoon in the back garden with her cousin Annette, (who would be 14, and was staying with us at the time). In the course of a game, Annette jumped on the cover - and it collapsed ! She finished with one leg down in the contents before grabbing the sides and screaming for help. That was bad enough, but we trembled at the thought of the much smaller Mary going right in ! (shortly before we marched-out, the contractor arrived to dig up the soakaway pipe and relay it properly).

Then (to our surprise) it seemed good to the Lords of the RAF that we should be uprooted from our peaceful, country existence, so that I could pass on my 10 years of distilled wisdom and experience (for what it was worth) to a new generation of Air Traffic Controllers at Shawbury. I should be going back there for a third time - this time as an Instructor at the School. Still, we both knew Shrewsbury (a pleasant town) well enough.

The journey across England should present no difficulty. Mrs D. would take the 403, I would follow on with the Isetta. But fate decreed otherwise. One day I ran down to Bubwith in it; at walking pace in the village there was a loud bang and I was "brought up all standing". A valve stem had broken, the valve head and broken section had wrecked the piston, the con-rod was bent. The engine was a write-off.

Repair would cost more than the Isetta was worth. I gave it to the Bubwith garage in settlement of my outstanding petrol bill; they gave it to their apprentice to play with. In any case, we'd made enquiries and learned that an OMQ at Shawbury should be available some time shortly after our arrival. A second vehicle would no longer be needed. The Isetta had served us well.

Only on one occasion had it let me down on the road. Running up to the lights at Clifton (north end of York) on my way to Linton, the throttle stuck open (by coincidence, exactly the problem I'd had five years before with my "Winged Wheel" on the way to Thorney from Hayling). But this time it was easy - cut the ignition switch (for there was no steering lock) and coast into a handy lay-by. Again an Amal type carb, off with the top, clean off inside the barrel and the throttle-block-cum-needle-carrier, spot of oil, put all back. Five minutes and we were away again.

They dined me out: I extolled the virtues of Firemen to the ranks of the students and cautioned them to leave our fire hulk seat harnesses alone. I said farewell to SATCO and ATCs, my Sergeant and the firemen. W/Cdr(A) heaved a deep sigh of relief on seeing the back of me, and that was that. It had been interesting.

Goodnight, all.

Danny42C.


Pity about the Isetta - we should have kept it ! :{

Union Jack
13th Apr 2014, 23:46
"Always look on the Breight(on) side of life.....":ok:

Jack

RAFEngO74to09
13th Apr 2014, 23:52
Danny,

Indeed - you should have kept it.

This pimped out 730 hp custom version recently sold at the Barrett-Jackson collector car auction for $56,100 !

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/staging/carlist/items/Fullsize/Cars/161779/161779_Front_3-4_Web.jpg

This one in "normal" guise sold for $51,700:

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/staging/carlist/items/Fullsize/Cars/161286/161286_Front_3-4_Web.jpg

My first car, which I could drive at age 16, was a 1963 Trojan 200 (198 cc - 56 mph). In 1970, one on the new fangled 50p pieces would fund filling the fuel tank at GBP 0.35 per gallon with change left over - photo is not of mine - wish I'd kept it !

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/uploads/cars/heinkel/71619.jpg

Danny42C
14th Apr 2014, 16:53
RAFEngO04to 09,

Lovely pictures ! (I completely forgot about the Trojans). IIRC, they had a van running round selling "Typhoo Tips" tea door-to-door, and I think they did a milk-float, too.

I never knew that they built Heinkels (presumably under licence), but it looks very like the Isetta, and I would think would perform much the same. Even today I think that they could cope with town traffic all right, and be very useful as economical shopping cars, and on the school run. But I wouldn't take them on a motorway !

(Btw, could you downsize the pics a bit - they're a bit big for PPRuNe).

Cheers, Danny.

ValMORNA
14th Apr 2014, 19:46
An addendum to my ATC days. How on earth could I have forgotten my course, flying Kirby Cadet gliders at weekends at RAF Kenley in the winter of 1948. Unfortunately none of us completed the course due to inclement weather most days and there was only so much time allocated to us before the next course would start.

To continue . . .

Having, somehow, volunteered for aircrew, I received a letter from RAF Careers Office in Brighton and a railway warrant. On the specified date I went to the railway station in Battle, presented the warrant and received a ticket. Looking at it I said to the clerk, "This is only a single to Brighton, not a return." He replied, "They are probably going to keep you!" With some trepidation I travelled, had an interview, received a warrant to return home where I awaited the call. Eventually I was sent to Hornchurch where I joined other candidates for the selection procedures. Among the group were an Irishman who was the all-over hairiest person I've ever seen before or since, and an 'Ethnic Minority' of dusky hue who claimed to be from Nigeria, Prince Obi of the Ibo tribe. Has anyone ever met a Nigerian who doesn't claim to be a Prince? Anyway, everything must have gone well because I later (July 1950) was attested at RAF Cardington, given a number, kitted out and with our group of Cadet Pilots sent to RAF (E Yorks Bridlington). After a few unremarkable days we 'entrained', and, arriving in Liverpool, had a meal at Seaforth Barracks before joining a Manx ferry to the Isle of Man and RAF Jurby. There, among the memories, are days of drilling, rain, marching, rain and more rain - I swear it came in horizontally and if the windows were opened it would blow through without wetting the floor! Some other recollections:
1. Inspection after first 'Bull' night. All equipment laid out in total perfection and the Broom, room for the sweeping of, displayed complete with 2-and-a-half rings inked on the handle. Who did it? Not guilty, m'Lud, but Squadron Leader Broom (later Air Marshal) was not impressed and our cards were well and truly marked!
2. Physical Training, sometimes consisting of parties of 5 or 6 running calf-high through the water's edge of the Irish Sea, carrying on our shoulders what appeared to be small tree-trunks or large logs.
3. Camping out in the wilds of Manx-land in 4/6-man(?) tents, laying on cold, probably damp, groundsheets, trying to catch some sleep before, on one occasion, being alerted by screams from the occupants of one tent who had uninvited guests - rats!
4. Sport! I enjoyed sport, up to a point. Cross-country running at Grammar School, played cricket for Battle 2nd XI in my early teens, but apparently the RAF didn't participate in such gentlemanly activities. No! Rugby (Union, of course!), in which I had a terrifying initiation. As the opposing players rushed at us a somewhat heavyweight player of ours threw the ball to me (Thanks, Pete Bxxxxxx) and I disappeared under the crush. Probable memo from staff to OIC, 'He does not play Rugby - not officer material.'
5. Food. Best left unwritten.
6. One week's jankers, for . . .? Well, there was a parade and the inspecting officer, passing behind me told the NCO, 'Long and untidy Hair - charge him,' and I was marched off. This was despite me having a haircut at the camp barber's - and entered in the book - the previous night. Yes, indeed, my card had been well and truly marked! This decided me that parading was not my metier/forte and I vowed henceforth to avoid them as much as possible, which I did for the rest of my service.
7. Exams. I think we all passed, and eventually entered the hallowed Officers Mess as Officer Cadets; white epaulettes, and all the other distinguishing features.
8. Well-earned leave, home comforts for a few days before part two of our education to which I apparently did not pay enough attention. When most of the other new 'Gentlemen' went on to the next stage of training, real flying, I found myself at the Aircrew Allocation Unit in RAF Innsworth with failed cadets from other training regimes and quite a few NCO aircrew hopefully being found units - or, perhaps, civvy street. It was a relaxed place with no duties; I think they were embarrassed to have us there as we were given a lot of leave and IIRC we only attended fortnightly pay parades where we were handed real currency - 'white fivers.' My abiding memory of this place is the cold weather (winter 1950-51) until an enterprising person removed all the fire-brick lining from inside the barrack room stove. There was ample fuel from broken wooden foot-lockers and clandestine visits to the coke dump. The reassurance of a red-hot glow from the stove and a few house bricks on the top to warm the bed at night - bliss! Eventually I got the call to go to RAF Odiham as a Radio Assistant u/t Air signaller where I was employed, typing, in the Signals Warrant Officer's office.
9. Were there good points? Yes, having a day off in September to watch the 1950 Manx Grand Prix at the Sulby Straight and the Ramsey hairpin, with, as an added extra, a talk by the winner, Dennis Parkinson.
And so to the next stage of my career which led, eventually, to an enjoyable, fulfilling civilian life. Thank you, RAF Jurby!

MPN11
14th Apr 2014, 20:00
Oh, nice tale ValMORNA ... and, urrgh, RAF Jurby. :eek:

Did a CCF (hahahaha) Camp there in April 1962 ... what a miserable place, although I see I got 30 minutes 'Air Experience' in Chipmunk T10, WZ861. I think the worst part was the night train from London to Liverpool (some of us slept on the luggage racks, probably classed as child abuse today), where we arrived early and had breakfast at a Seaman's Mission before getting on the Ferry to Douglas ...etc etc etc.

Never, ever, wanted to visit the IoM again, although I seem to have had a couple of banking connections with the wet soggy place. And they weren't a lot of pleasure either!

binbrook
15th Apr 2014, 10:58
Isetta fans may like to know that at a swapmeet somewhere, in among the Corgis and Matchboxes, they may find a die-cast KinToY 4-wheel Isetta (made in China of course), pale blue and off-white (just like mine was) and registered WI 35028 (I can't remember mine). It has seats and a steering wheel but no gear lever or rear number and the door doesn't open. At £2 good value for happy memories!

Danny42C
15th Apr 2014, 16:09
Somewhere I've got Matchboxes of the Isetta (blue) and a 403 (pale grey, same as mine - ex RAFG in the '60s). If only I could find 'em !

D.

Hummingfrog
15th Apr 2014, 17:31
I have persuaded my father - now 91 to recall his memories of learning to fly with the RAF during the war.

He has written some of it down but I thought the preface he wrote brought the enormity of what the country faced in 1939 to the fore.

"A group of friends and I met on the morning of 3 Sep 39, a Sunday. We were all expecting a declaration of war with Germany. It came in a broadcast by Chamberlain at 1115. He announced that this country was at war with Germany. At that moment my life and future and the lives of those gathered friends of mine (none of whom survived the war) changed dramatically!"

More to follow.

HF

ValMORNA
15th Apr 2014, 20:49
MPN11,


I was trying to remember the 'Air Experience flight' I had while I was there and think it was in a Prentice. The pilot asked me to have a try so I flew it like a Kirby Cadet, straight and level. Easy-Peasy!

Chugalug2
15th Apr 2014, 21:43
I have a new sim card in my phone which is thus limited to making UK only calls now. The first number I tried to call failed repeatedly. I called up my service provider to report this seeming failure to be told, "Ah, that's the code for the IOM, and isn't included in your plan". It's obviously another of those far off places of which we now know little. True enough for me as I've never been there, but I've overflown it often enough, to another part of the UK, Northern Ireland.

WW2 training had a default for preferring holiday destinations it seems. Logical of course, abundant accommodation available given the lack of holidays being taken. Some of it though was occupied by enemy aliens enjoying an enforced holiday courtesy of HMG. Were any of them there when you were, ValMORNA?

Hummingfrog, your father's comments remind us all of that dramatic broadcast by Chamberlain, and the implications it had for every man, woman, and child. War with such a seemingly invincible foe must have been a very sobering prospect to contemplate indeed. I believe that the PM went on to say what a bitter blow it was for him that his long struggle for peace had failed, to which some were prone to respond that it wasn't exactly going to be a bundle of fun for them either!

I look forward to your father's story. Well done for encouraging him to tell it. Thank you, in anticipation, to you both!

ricardian
15th Apr 2014, 22:43
Hummingfrog - you've whetted our appetites!

Danny42C
15th Apr 2014, 23:12
Hummingfrog,

Once again I have a contemporary by my side (when I'd almost given up hope !). Welcome to our shrinking (but still happy) band, Hummingfrog Senior, Sir !

Tip for Junior: get the old feller rambling and record it - you can always edit it at your leisure, and rambling is what we old-timers best enjoy doing in any case - I'm looking forward to this.

Jurby does not seem to hold joyful memories for most of the correpondents who did time there during the war, but some of my happiest days as a lad were spent on our annual holidays in Ramsey in the mid-thirties. Sunshine every day, if memory serves....D.

Chugalug,

Just as everybody is supposed to remember exactly where they were when John Kennedy was assassinated, so everyone who heard Chamberlain's measured, lugubrious tones that Sunday morning will never forget it.

It was made worse by the fact that the terrible casualty lists of 14/18 were so fresh in the memory of every adult (the beginning of the First Gulf War is further away from us now than the Somme was to them then)....D.

Cheers, both. Danny.

dogle
16th Apr 2014, 00:05
Splendid, HF, thank you so much.

May I put in a word in defence of Mona's Isle, home of tailless cats and four-horned sheep?

It is to me (not having served there) a lovely place; in peacetime, my long-departed family members visiting for holidays always seemed to recall enjoying good weather ..... because they were guided by a former naval person (one who had volunteered for the RN as a boy sailor in WWI), who had the sailor's sense of what we came to call the Met, and on any given day could direct the company to that side of the Island which was due to enjoy the better climate. (He was a remarkable gentleman, having as a humble AB seen fit to put the 'Former Naval Person' straight face-to-face in unequivocal language - and survived! - but that's another story, and I fear way too far off-topic).

I have had the great pleasure of meeting some of the intrepid aviators who continue to fly, for fun, from one of the wartime Manx airfields - and here, by their courtesy, is a link illustrating some of the WWII history -
Andreas Gliding Club (http://www.manxgliding.org/features/andreasairfield/)

Danny42C
16th Apr 2014, 17:45
dogle,

"Quocunque jeceris stabit" ! (And whatever you chuck on it, it seems to stand up just as well, too). Thanks for the link - I never knew there was so much going on there during the war, apart from the fact that there was a training establishment of some sort at Jurby, and also an internment camp on the Island for (mostly harmless) "enemy aliens", but then I was away for most of the time. I can offer comment on your story and the Andreas Gliding Club history (they must have got some grand "orographic" lift off N.Barrule with the wind in the north).

Your long departed family members showed good taste in their choice of resort. Pre-war, the I.O.M. was a lovely place (provided you kept clear of Douglas - and if you liked Blackpool, you might like that, too) * Former Naval Persons seemed to drift naturally to the Island: ours was an old P.O. Signaller called Tom Onley, and he held a ten-year old boy spellbound with nautical tales which I now suspect were akin to those told by "Uncle Albert" in a later generation. For years after I kept an old code book which he had given me, and could describe to you, at the drop of a hat, the details of the pennant of a Rear-Admiral in the 1912 Argentinian Navy (should you wish to know).

Never did fresh-caught mackerel and blackcurrent tarts with cream taste so good - or the roar of the dawn TT practices (as they pulled away from the Ramsey hairpin up the mountain road) sound so exciting to a bike-mad lad. And the miles that the old chap and I (and dog "Barney") rambled through the glens (Glen Auldyn was unspoilt then), and over the hills. As some were 1800-footers, they probably claimed victims in the War. Pity about the St.Andreas church, though - they should've put the tower back, I think.

Don't know much about aerial activity. A couple of RAF "Saro" flying boats alighted in Ramsey Bay one year in the late '30s (the local boatmen made a fortune from folk wanting to go and have a look). Defence of Liverpool was no great shakes - I remember seeing a (PR ?) Me 110 sauntering unhindered N. up the Mersey one afternoon in '42 when I was on Embarkation Leave.

Eheu fugaces......Danny

Note * : 'Ware incoming ! :*

Hummingfrog
17th Apr 2014, 20:44
My Father's tale starts

4 September 1939

My 18th birthday. My dreams of studying medicine were shattered for I knew that, without any doubt, I would be called up to serve my country. On that day, unknown to me, my journey to No 1 BFTS at Terrell, near Dallas Texas, had started.

As the next few months passed the government machine, slow to start, soon moved up a gear and the process of conscription began. Selections were made - Army, Navy or Air Force. I had already made up my mind that, given the choice, the Royal Air Force (RAF) would be my life and home for at least the duration of the war.

During the period of waiting for my call up papers I joined the local Defence Volunteers (The Home Guard) and spent time, mostly nights, guarding a water tower at Cookridge near Leeds and not far from my home!

After visiting Padgate, near Warrington in Cheshire and being subjected to all the various tests and medicals I was eventually selected for service in the Royal Air Force. After even further tests I was subsequently selected for Air Crew (pilot) training and, in l941, I donned my uniform for the first time.

My first days in the RAF were in London where more checks and tests were carried out before posting to ITW ( Initial Training Wing) at St. John’s College, Cambridgeshire, where we were housed in the college in former students’ quarters. Here we went to ground school and spent some three months in the wonderful old College buildings and grounds. The College history goes back to 1512 with its famous Bridge of Sighs over the river Cam. Even three months studying in what was of course Cambridge University leaves its mark and I envy those who have been fortunate to have been, and still are being, educated at Cambridge University.

June 1942

Here starts the real thing - actually flying an aeroplane! This took place at No. 28 EFTS (Elementary Flying Training School) Wolverhampton. During only 12 hours in total in a Tiger Moth I managed to fly my very first solo - what a thrill !

July/August 1942

My fellow cadets and I were now housed in tents in Heaton Park, Manchester, a large Municipal park of grass, woodland, a lake and a reservoir and awaiting our next move. I can’t remember the exact date but we were marshalled to a local railway station and onto a train - totally blacked out - which was waiting for us. During the night we were on our way ‘somewhere’. Our destination unknown to us at that time was Gourock in Scotland where, on arrival to a grey misty early morning, we were taken by tender to a Cuba Mail Line ship lying off shore. At that time we still had no idea which part of the world we were bound for. RAF cadets were trained in other parts of the world, Rhodesia for example, South Africa and Canada. As the day wore on and after much activity our liner, together with three others including the liner Washington, were formed into a convoy with an escort of a large number of naval ships. I still do not know to this day why we had such a massive escort - which, if my memory is correct, consisted of a battleship, 2 cruisers and many destroyers. It was some considerable time before we were made aware of our ‘probable’ country of destination.

We were quickly organised into an ‘onboard’ workforce and I was designated with others to work in one of the ship’s galleys where, for the duration of the voyage, I gutted chickens, the contents of which were swept into a large bin between me and the chicken!

I cannot be absolutely precise as to our exact position in the convoy but, looking out of the galley porthole, we would see the liner Washington and some of the escorting destroyers some distance away on our starboard side.

One day, I cannot remember how many days out of Gourock we were, a crew member rushed past the entrance to the galley shouting ‘the Washington’s been torpedoed’! Suddenly we heard the whooping of the destroyers and we could see clearly the stern of the Washington was covered in smoke. It seemed all hell broke loose and then very quickly we realised the rest of the convoy was moving away and the Washington was sailing on with several destroyers staying with her. My research into this thus far advised it was towed to an East Coast port.

In recent times I have carried out further research regarding the ship I sailed in and it seems almost certain that the Cuba Mail Line liner was the SS Oriente later renamed, when in the hands of the US government, to the US Thomas H. Barry. Further research indicates that the liner which caught fire was possibly the Liner Wakefield, a sister ship to the Washington, built by the New York Shipbuilding Corporation in the l930’s - known also as the Manhattan. Records show the Wakefield sailed from the Clyde on 27 August l942 and caught fire on the evening of 3 September 1942. This timescale matches the time that I believe I was crossing the Atlantic. There is no record as far as I can find that the Washington caught fire so I must assume after all these years that when our crew member ran past the galley shouting the Washington has been torpedoed that it was in fact the Wakefield. Who knows? But for all these years I have believed it was the Washington. Does it matter? Not really, but I would clearly love to know.

Back to the convoy. The convoy ploughed on, more chickens were gutted and then to our port side we were passing the Statue of Liberty and the New York skyline could be seen. We berthed at a quay on the New York waterfront and disembarked only to take our seats in the carriage of a train waiting for us. After starting our journey, final destination still unknown, we entered Grand Central Station - a most impressive sight. Here the train stopped and I bought my first Hershey Bar. This has become a family tradition that anyone visiting New York must always bring back a Hershey Bar bought on Grand Central Station!

More to follow

HF

dogle
18th Apr 2014, 10:48
It seems that USS Wakefield, formerly SS Manhattan (indeed sister to SS Washington) in her civilian life, was a handsome ship and enjoyed quite an eventful wartime career -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Wakefield_(AP-21 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Wakefield_%28AP-21))

(One is grateful for the fine efforts of the Wikipedia folks ..... but I fear that someone may have been shooting a line with that rainstorm story!).

(Edit: ... or maybe not, now that I recall seeing the sorry, sorry sight of the Empress of Canada on her side in Gladstone Dock .... capsized by the best efforts of the assembled fire brigades to save her.
http://www.liverpoolships.org/empress_of_canada_loss_by_fire.html
.... and in that link I see mention of one of Danny's homecoming adventures!).

Danny42C
18th Apr 2014, 13:38
Welcome aboard, Hummingfrog Senior, and Well Met, Sir !

Your excellent First Post on this (the best of all Threads on Prune, IMHO) has raised so many questions, and started so many hares running that I hardly know which one to begin with.(I'm sure the assembled company will bear with me as the Shawbury Senior Common Room goes in the "Pending" tray for a while).

You may be able to help me with mysteries for which I never hoped to hear an explanation. You perhaps remember that Cliff Nemo (RIP), our founder, was quite adamant that at his BFTS (Darr Field, Oklahoma) the student body was composed 20° of Air Corps "Kay-Dets" (and he had an American "oppo" there to prove it). The idea of, course, was to see how the product of the British flying training syllabus (two-part, 140 hours - am I right ?) stood up against Kay-Dets from their own US Army Flight Schools (some of which had been taken over for RAF students under the "Arnold Scheme" - but never, AFAIK, "mixed"). SO WHAT WAS THE FINDING ?

Nobody seems to know. And it is inportant, because if experience showed that there was no discernable difference (and exactly that was what our OTUs found), then the American system (3-part, 200 hours) must be grossly wasteful and inefficient. And this was quite apart from the anomaly whereby the "Arnold Scheme" washed-out 40% of their RAF intake, whereas the comparable BFTS figure was almost nil - and both from a broadly similar "feedstock" ! (I never found what the Air Corps washout rate was with their own people).

Did you have US Army Air Corps students with you at Terrell Field, Texas ? What did they think about the RAF syllabus ? When they graduated, did they receive their silver wings and a 2/Lieut's Commission in the same way as if they'd gone through the US system ?

That's enough to going on with. Looking forward to your next....D.

dogle,

It would seem that we came into Liverpool from Bombay in the middle of a whole host of small-pox carriers (having offloaded our one case in Gibraltar). These would almost all have been servicemen who had been vaccinated in infancy (as everyone had been in our day), re-vaccinated on entry into the Services, and certainly re-vaccinated at least once more when going out East, and then a final time before embarking for UK.

So how on Earth ? Something funny was going on.....D.

Cheers, both. Danny.

Hummingfrog
18th Apr 2014, 17:20
Hi Danny

I will put your questions to Dad and see if he has any answers. There is a web site for No 1 BFTS hosted by a school in Terrell. I will put up the link when I get home.

HF

MPN11
18th Apr 2014, 19:37
Great start Hummingfrog :ok:

I'm looking forward to reading more, although I'm sure the community will cope with Danny42C continuing in parallel (you're not sloping off that easily, Sir!)

smujsmith
18th Apr 2014, 20:56
This thread turns up surprises left right and centre. Hummingfrog, welcome, and hopefully answers for Danny to some of his conundrums. I, like many, look forward to your continued input.

Smudge:ok:

Hummingfrog
18th Apr 2014, 21:25
This is the link to the Terrrell BFTS website.

Home - No. 1 British Flying Training School Museum - Fly-In (http://www.bftsmuseum.org/home.php)

HF

Danny42C
19th Apr 2014, 00:15
Hummingfrog,

Thanks for the link ! It is nice to hear that many of the small Southern towns that hosted BFTSs in the war years have actively kept alive the memory, (and tended the graves of) their former British guests - and good luck to Terrell in their rebuilding of an AT6A (which we know as the "Harvard": it differed in that it was armed, with a top right fuselage .300 Browning firing through the prop. The cocking handle poked out from the corner of the panel - don't know how many rounds they loaded).

The instructor (in the back) had no control of this gun, which in hindsight might not have been a really good idea.

I'm eagerly awaiting your Dad's recollections of any putative "Kay-det" comparisons which might have been made with his (LAC) RAF mates there.

BTW, you have a PM. Goodnight, Danny.

Warmtoast
19th Apr 2014, 09:05
Danny

Re your comments on servicemen infected with smallpox. I was intrigued and had a look at The Times digital archive for February and March 1946. There were mentions of smallpox infected servicemen on six incoming liners during that two-months. So not as uncommon as one would think. I was always of the impression that once vaccinated the vaccination lasted for life, but obviously not so.

Here's what was said about the arrival from India of the Duchess of Richmond and Georgic at Liverpool on 2nd March 1946.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Smallpox_zps4fa08b74.jpg

"the ship then lowered her Jack" in paragraph two of the cutting is I assume reference to the lowering of the "Yellow Jack" flag that a ship traditionally hoisted on entering harbour to indicate it had a contagious or infectious disease aboard.

Fareastdriver
19th Apr 2014, 09:06
Thank God the pages are back to normal size.

Hempy
19th Apr 2014, 09:44
Danny,

Like anything on the interweb I'm not sure of it's credibility, but there is a good read on the BFTS scheme here;

http://www.5bfts.org.uk/articles/history/fullhistory.aspx

In part,

In December 1941, the Air Member for training introduced a new plan, which aimed at raising the standards of pilots by providing more flight hours in their pre-OTU stages of training. The training syllabus for RAF EFTS and SFTS schools was extended and the flying hours were raised to 200. To conform to the new syllabus the EFTS course length was raised from 20 to 28 weeks, in January 1942, and the flying hours increased from 150 to 200 hrs. The primary stage now lasted 14 weeks and gave 91 hrs on primary trainers and the basic advanced stage 14 weeks with 109 hrs flying time. It was not possible to increase the ratio of advanced flying to primary flying because of the shortage of advanced trainer aircraft. It also had been hoped to expand the capacity of each school from 200 to 240 pupils, so as to maintain the previous rate of output, but this was impracticable at that time, and the capacities remained unchanged with intakes of pupils (50} every 7 weeks. Output was accordingly reduced to about 1600 per year.

Molemot
19th Apr 2014, 12:44
I came across this book on the Arnold Scheme, whilst researching Arthur Leighton-Porter (Husband of "Jane".)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Arnold-Scheme-British-Pilots-American/dp/1596290420/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1397911232&sr=1-1&keywords=9781596290426









http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YF%2B2xULVL._SY445_.jpg

I find the book itself (all of it!) is available to read online from Googlebooks...

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=m6IA84_UHsQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+arnold+scheme:+british+pilots,+the+american+south&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RndSU8XNO4LmOoP4gZAL&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=the%20arnold%20scheme%3A%20british%20pilots%2C%20the%20ame rican%20south&f=false

gzornenplatz
19th Apr 2014, 13:14
Molemot, I think you'll find it's Leighton-Porter. (Her son was an RAF pilot)

Hummingfrog
19th Apr 2014, 14:20
Dad's story continues:ok:


So we journeyed north and eventually entered Canada. We were told our destination was to be Moncton, New Brunswick, an RAF Air Crew Receiving Centre. We enjoyed our stay in Moncton where the citizens were most hospitable towards us.

One day a group of us were informed that we were to be trained in the USA - our destination was to be Terrell in Texas - and so to our day of departure. The long train journey south took us four or five days as I recall. We eventually arrived at Terrell railway station and onwards to the airfield, the camp and our quarters. This was 1BFTS (No. 1 British Flying Training School) Terrell - our final resting place after the long and interesting journey from RAF Heaton Park in Manchester, England.

Mid-September 1942

The first few weeks were a settling-in phase - getting to know our way round the camp, the inevitable parades, ground school and then on 28 September 1942 the ‘real thing’: my introduction to the Stearman PT18. My instructor, K.W. Withey, a very likeable chap, who with firmness but with good humour, led me on 2 October l942 after only 4 hours dual instruction to my first solo and the beginning of ‘Hey I like flying!’

From then on the exercises became more demanding, more adventurous flying, link training, more ground school and some fellow cadets eliminated. On 7 October l942,with more confidence and a great deal of trepidation, I carried out my first solo spinning exercise. I have to admit this demands all your courage. There you are, on your own, several thousand feet up in the air. You deliberately stall the aeroplane and put it into a spin - almost vertical - the aircraft spinning with the ground rushing closer towards you by the second until you carry out the necessary control movements to bring the plane out of the spin - and live another day!!

On 20 November 1942 I flew my last circuit on the PT18 - I think we all felt ‘aces’ by this time!

After a spell of leave we returned to Terrell. My first introduction to the Harvard AT6 was through my designated instructor W.P. Wakefield, a relatively small, stocky built man with a somewhat dour but forceful character which justified his nickname of ‘Little Caesar’, but who more than anyone taught me to really fly. His no-nonsense approach to accuracy is still remembered to this day. In you flew at more than 1,000 ft in the circuit you would suddenly be catapulted forward as he sharply moved the control column forward! Likewise below 1,000 ft in the circuit he sharply moved the control column back! These movements carried out without warning concentrated the mind admirably!

It soon became clear the Harvard was a totally different animal from the Stearman. Immediately noticeable was the mono wing and enclosed cockpit rather than the ‘string bag’ view of the open cockpit with the wings of a biplane. It was a big step up in every sense of the word. Many of the exercises were of course similar to those carried out on the Stearman but it seemed that everything happened much more quickly and more precisely on the Harvard.

Gradually, as experience was gained and confidence grew I found it a great aeroplane to fly. Exercises were carried out both dual and solo and were in a sense repetitious - thus we learned. As in the Stearman, so in the Harvard, I think the most testing exercise was to deliberately put the aircraft into a spin. Having overcome my fear of spinning the Stearman I was, to say the least, more than a little fearful when it came to the moment of the same exercise in the Harvard. As I mentioned before I think you have to muster all your courage to carry out this exercise. However, although it appeared everything happened much faster I survived!

I can sympathise with Dad as although most of my flying has been in helicopters I spent from 1998 until 2013 as a RAF Reserve AEF pilot giving air experience to ATC cadets. Every 6 months we had to spin and that moment of stick back and full rudder still took a bit of adrenalin to do!!

HF