PDA

View Full Version : Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II


Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 [21] 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52

Yamagata ken
11th Jan 2014, 20:11
Congratulations Geriaviator. Yours is the 5,000th post on this thread. We have a winner.

Apropos very little, a few pages back I posted a late 1960s photo of a younger Ken on a Velocette. In the background was a Rover P3, and this is my war story.

Coventry was a centre for machine tool manufacturing. At the outbreak of WWII there was competition amongst the local manufacturers for skilled tradesmen, so they set up the Coventry Toolroom Agreement. That meant pay and conditions were set collectively by a manufacturers alliance, and led to Coventry toolmakers being the best paid tradesmen in the country. The Rover P3 belonged to my brother's mate Malcolm. He was a precision grinder (all his children turned out the same size), a tradesman who could afford to support a wife and three children, pay a mortgage, run a P3 and race a Triumph Bonneville at weekends. That photo was taken at Cadwell Park.

We were the respectable working class. Men wore suits and ties to work, before changing into overalls. Saturday nights were family nights, spent in the beer hall. Everyone dressed up, men in suits, ladies in frocks. The Dud Clews Jazz Orchestra found it profitable to drive up from London to perform in Coventry. Malcolm used to smoke cigars.

It's 0-dark-0 here, time to go out and shovel snow. Goodnight all.

cockney steve
11th Jan 2014, 22:00
well,Ken, I don't know what's going on, but your post is 4990 according to my ancient 'puter....and there was a ghost page, which should now be headed bythis post....(see Jet Blast TRABB...for the ghost page things!
No, it's still showing another page, but this is on the "real" last page.

clicker
12th Jan 2014, 13:45
Chugalug2,

One of my memories about the F-104 was that any formation created it's own murk to disappear into.

One of the other posters remarked on the aircraft being called the "Widow Maker". I was told that as a percentage we lost more Lightnings. I don't know how true that was but certainly the Luftwaffe had quite a number of Starfighters.

Fareastdriver
12th Jan 2014, 15:02
The Lockheed 104 got the 'widow maker' name from the early versions that had a downward ejection seat. This was because, in 1958, there was concern that the ejection seats at the time would not be able to get the pilot above the high T tail. With this seat fitted the USAF lost 21 pilots whilst they were attempting to escape.
Later they fitted a seat with a minimum ejection speed of about 90 knots, similar to British ajection seats but the GAF and other European NATO aircraft were fitted with a Martin Baker seat that had a zero/zero capability.

I, pesonally, found that that flying low level around Germany at 200 ft was bl##dy dangerous. When there was an easterly wind blowing all the crap from East Germany would reduce the visibility to about 400 yards. Our heros in the 104s, and there were dozens of them, would point their aircraft at some distant beacon or Tacan and bore along at 3/400 knots. Even if they saw you they would be able to avoid you so it was a lot safer to get down to 50ft.

Unless there was a Wessex down there, in which case you had to go lower to undertake it.

Warmtoast
12th Jan 2014, 15:24
F-104 "The WidowMaker"

The West German Luftwaffe received a total of 915 Starfighters and during its period of service with the German armed forces, about 270 German Starfighters were lost in accidents, just under 30 percent of the total force, killing 110 pilots, hence the nickname "The Widowmaker".

The attrition rate in German service was not all that much greater than that of the F-104 in service with several other air forces, including the United States Air Force. Whilst Canada had the unenviable record of losing over 50 percent of its 200 single-seat CF-104s in flying accidents.

At Rheindahlen one would see regular flights of pairs of F-104s flying at relatively low-level, south to north from the GAF base at Norvenich which was about half-way between Aachen and Cologne. These flights were a regular daily occurrence, about every hour or so.

Warmtoast
12th Jan 2014, 15:34
Chugalug 2

Very 70's interiors, Warmtoast, with 'earth colours' in abundance! I trust you had the long hair and flared jeans to match;-).

Long hair and flared jeans are not quite my scene. I was more into Wagner, heavy, but sublime music; James Last, and Abba after they swept the board of the 1974 Eurovision song contest with "Waterloo". I still remember the blonde singer with her tight and shiny blue trousers!
..and I still like James last.

Chugalug2
12th Jan 2014, 16:42
James Last and Abba I couldn't possibly but agree with, especially as you say the very fragrant Agnetha. Wagner not so much my cup of tea, I must admit, though a very pithy Dan-Air captain that I flew with out of Berlin once suggested that one of the local #1's there might well be outfitted with the appropriate helmet, spear and shield for making her cabin report prior to door closure, for it always ended with some doom laden comment. "89 passengers on board and seated, Captain...and they are all drunk!"

MPN11
12th Jan 2014, 18:21
At the risk of sounding snotty, is there a chance that we could get back to Danny42C's amazing career? There's so much more to hear, and being the gent he is I suspect he's just waiting for the waters of thread deviation to calm down :)

Danny42C
12th Jan 2014, 19:08
Fareastdriver, Warmtoast and Chugalug,

There were dark rumours at the time about the methods Lockheed used to secure the NATO F104 contracts, and I believe Prince Berhard of the Netherlands was said to be implicated. As to that I have no knowledge, but those who have been surprised by the recent choice of the Rafale for the IAF might be interested to refer back to p.35 #691 ("regle"- RIP) on this Thread.

As to choice of music, I'm in general agreement with all that has been said, but found Wagner a bit heavy myself, Chugalug, and for some reason I got addicted to Mahler, attracted by what I call the "marmalade" quality of his music. And I could listen to "Die Fledermaus" till the cows come home.

Danny.

Danny42C
12th Jan 2014, 21:22
MPN11,

Fear not ! I'm waiting in the wings with the next two or three Posts in draft and ready to go.

Meanwhile, I've on many occasions on this Thread warned of the danger of it becoming a monologue. It's a Forum; the ebb and flow of "crewroom natter" is what gives it life; the Moderators have been very wise to allow us the widest possible scope; this is what has made it that "Prince of Threads" which it has grown into.

Danny thanks you for your concern on his behalf, but is quite content to wait till things quieten down a bit !

Danny.

pzu
13th Jan 2014, 23:34
Another SAAF Clip from Tinus le Roux

Lt Peter During, a Spitfire pilot with 7 Sqd SAAF on his 'Italian walkabout'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaN7B4NwmrQ

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

Danny42C
14th Jan 2014, 18:11
As I've mentioned before, the combination of cheap coupon petrol and leave mileage allowance made it easy to afford as much travel as you wanted. And the squadrons had thought of a good way to combine business with pleasure.

Somewhere in the district surrounding Oberammergau/Garmisch-Partenkirchen (Bavaria) the RAF had established an Escape and Evasion School which all aircrew (AFAIK) had to attend - to teach them how to live off the land in the event of escaping from captivity as prisoners in some future war. These Courses were apt to be uncomfortable (I'd always managed to evade them in my flying days) and not at all popular - especially in winter.

But why not bring your wife and family down with you ? They can easily find hotel rooms in nine out of ten years. On the tenth, Oberammergau put on a world-famous Passion Play (see Wiki) all summer; all spare accommodation in the village and its environs would be at a premium. But even then the RAF had found a solution. A local large farm (name forgotten) had a tourist room available very reasonably: our aircrew had more or less laid claim to the place as a holiday base. Your family could enjoy a week or two there while you were building bivouacs in the forest and dining on hedgehog (baked Captain Mainwaring style ?).

We had a trip down there, although I was not on the Course, staying at the farm. The place rang with the chimes of cowbells as the cows came down to be milked. Almost on the Austrian border, the farm was close to Garmisch-Partenkirchen and the Zugspitze, the highest mountain in Germany (actually the border runs right through the summit). Of course, we had to go and see Ludwig's fantasy castle of Neuscwanstein, taking a landau up the hill as it was a very hot day. Mary was fascinated by the place and galloped up and down the long galleries above the great Hall, adorned with Wagnerian frescos. Not far away is the charming small palace of Linderhof, another of the king's extravagances which almost bankrupted his kingdom.

The mountainous scenery in that part of the world is magnificent; the small medieval towns are full of woodcarvers; the walls of the houses covered with these frescos, many religious as Bavaria is the most Catholic part of Germany. We picked one of the smaller glacial lakes (cannot recall the name) as our favourite picnic spot. It was a beautiful place, the water clear as glass, but being melt-water from the snows on the surrounding mountains, was achingly cold even in the summer sunshine (and there is only sharp scree underfoot !)

On another occasion we took the rack railway to the summit of the Zugspitze. There was a very good (and expensive !) restaurant on the top. From the terrace is a wonderful panoramic view over Austria: on the lower slopes of the mountain I could pick out Ehrwald where I'd skied with Witold Suida eight years before. People were sunbathing in deckchairs in the warm sunshine and you could ski part way down from there, for on the higher slopes there was then snow all the year round (although I believe that is not possible today with the shrinking of the glacier).

Of course, the only fly in the ointment was the distance down to Bavaria. We reckoned 450 miles from GK to the Austrian border, but with an early start, and two of you sharing the driving, even with rest stops you could comfortably make it by early evening. Nearly all of it was autobahn; at frequent intervals there were raststätte in clearings where you could pull off for a breather, and eat your own snacks in the open air on the rough benches and tables provided. Nothing else was there, they were unmanned. Somehow they were always clean and tidy; the Germans took their own rubbish with them and I suppose they were checked regularly by someone or other.
(Are these places still there today, I wonder ?)

There were traps for the unwary on the way home. Usually you'd travel overnight (having squeezed the pips out of your holiday time). Again, nearly all autobahn, that shouldn't be a problem. Until you reached the dreaded Frankfurter Kreuz. * This was a spaghetti junction to put Birmingham in the shade. Many a weary driver, completely disorientated by the myriad Richtung signs, ended up on the right autobahn - but going southbound again ! Unless he twigged it, "by dawn's early light", he'd be back where he started (this happened more than once)

(* Choose Wiki's second (German) entry for a nice clear diagram)

I'd a small compass on my screen, not unlike an E2 (and about as much use), but enough to show up gross errors. And, to give the highway authorities their due, the did try to help. As soon as you cleared the Kreuz, there was a notice: "Falsch Gefahren ?" (Made a mistake ?) "Never mind, there's a junction 5km (say) ahead - you can turn round there". But as there was then no English version of the message, it was not much help to many of our people who had to learn the hard way.

Enough for the night, I think.

Cheers, Danny42C.

It is better to travel hopefully than to arrive (yes, I know I've used that before)

smujsmith
14th Jan 2014, 18:50
Ha ha Danny,

Have you double posted this ? Could be your having to go around the Autobahn system again, I never did a tour in Germany, but had a few short stays and always found the country and its people very welcoming. I envy you your chance to explore, there must be more.

Smudge :ok:

Danny42C
14th Jan 2014, 19:04
Smudge,

Oops ! Mea Maxima Culpa !

Another Senior Moment ! Thanks for pointing it out - and it puts me back on #5000. (Roll on #6000).

Cheers, Danny.

Union Jack
14th Jan 2014, 23:19
and it puts me back on #5000. (Roll on #6000).

But very fitting that it should indeed be you, Danny - just keep ' em coming!:ok:

Jack

Danny42C
14th Jan 2014, 23:24
The new Thread that has just been opened by draken55 (Dieppe Raid Documentary) tweaks a faint string in my memory. It was of a rumour, current in India at the war's end, of another "Raid" which went spectacularly wrong. As I've never read any documentary evidence to support this rumour (and now Wiki makes no mention of it), it may be pure fiction, and I've not made any reference to it in my Posts of the time. For what it is worth, here is the story:

As the '45 Monsoon was slackening, and the land campaign in Burma was going well for us, it was decided to mount an invasion on the mainland coast at a point just south of Phuket Island. (The idea here was repeated by MacArthur at Inchon in the Korean War - cut all your enemy's front line forces off "at the knees" from their supply lines at a stroke).

Now this operation of ours was supposed to have been the original "Zipper", and Wiki covers that ground fully. The objectives were then supposed to be Ports Swettenham and Dickinson (which are far South of the spot we have in mind).

But our supposed Invasion Task Force was at sea in late July, and it was far more than a probing operation. There was a strong Naval escort, there were LCTs and LCIs carrying a large infantry force. All the intelligence that could possibly be gathered had been minutely studied by the Planners. But it was not enough.

All the old holiday memories and snaps of the landing beaches told of firm, white sand. And there was supposed to be sufficient water depth to allow the LCTs to get inshore. But the intelligence was faulty. Below a six-inch top-dressing of sand lay deep, glutinous mud. And offshore lay an unsuspected sandbar which the LCTs would strand on.

Half way across the Japanese Emperor surrendered. But it was anybody's guess whether the troops in Burma would comply with the order. The Force decided to go on. As they approached land, there was no reaction. They went in.

It was a shambles. Any light-skinned vehicles that had come ashore with the infantry were down to their axles in the mud. The heavily laden infantry floundered about in it. The LCTs couln't get inshore (and their tanks would not have been much use if they could). And above the high-water mark a substantial Japanese force waited impassively. What air support our people had (or even if they had any) I don't know.

The situation was on a knife-edge. It would need only a single Jap soldier to fire the first shot, discipline would break down, and there would be a bloodbath. His officer would cut him down at once, but the harm would have been done. The Navy offshore could not fire into hand-to-hand combat on the beach. It would have been a disaster; Mountbatten's name would have been mud.

But it didn't happen. The Japanese commander offered his sword. And the force (presumably) withdrew and was incorporated into Operation Tiderace.

And that's the story. Make of it what you will.

Danny42C.

Warmtoast
16th Jan 2014, 22:25
Danny42C

Like you we visited Neuschwanstein Castle near Fussen in Bavaria. One of the most impressive and memorable sights in Germany.

You mention going up the steep hill from the car park to the castle entrance by "landau". Things had gone downhill a little when we visited ten or so years later as although the transport up the hill was still horse-drawn a much more rudimentary and practical carriage was used as seen here.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/JHQ%20Rheindahlen/Neuschwanstein-Ours1_zps0e057745.jpg

Outstanding workmanship to the interior as seen here.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/JHQ%20Rheindahlen/Neuschwanstein-Ours7Adjusted_zps17d4c5e5.jpg

The guide said Ludwig II's bed took two years to be carved out of a solid piece of wood as seen here.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/JHQ%20Rheindahlen/Neuschwanstein-Ours12_zpsf243e646.jpg

...and of course given it's name the Swan featured prominently as seen in this painting of Lohengrin (he of the opera) arriving to meet Elsa his bride in a swan-drawn boat (the marriage didn't last!).

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/JHQ%20Rheindahlen/Neuschwanstein-Ours10AdjustedBest_zpsce774c6b.jpg

Also agree with you about the picturesque villages as seen here with the cows coming down from the mountains. The best ones wear the biggest bells.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/JHQ%20Rheindahlen/Cowsdownfromthemountain2_zps29db1c99.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/JHQ%20Rheindahlen/Cowsdownfromthemountain1_zpsb57b250c.jpg

Danny42C
17th Jan 2014, 15:54
Warmtoast,

Thanks for the lovely photos. We used to see the cows coming down over the meadows. Happy Days,

Danny.

Danny42C
17th Jan 2014, 16:49
Roaming round Bavaria, we suffered our first puncture ("flat") in the 403 (the culprit was a fence-wire staple). I changed the wheel without much trouble, and off we went.

Punctures are rare today; tyres must be much tougher or roads much cleaner. But in former times it was not so. In the days of my youth, every boy could mend a puncture in his bike at the roadside. He'd have a little tin of repair kit in his saddle-bag and a pair of tyre levers (or teaspoons pinched from the cutlery drawer when Mum wasn't looking).

When they and their vehicles grew larger that was no longer possible. Now you changed the wheel yourself, put it into the nearest garage (used to be 2/6), picked it up and put it back yourself. Not only that, but we used to Change the Wheels Round to Equalise Wear (there were two schools of thought about that: one pointed out that they'd all wear out togther and then you'd have to buy a full set). And even now, a mysterious "pull" in the steering can often be cured by swapping the fronts over. So of course the puncture held no terrors for me, I got the kit out and set to work. Now our senior members are calling to mind how it (typically) was.

You got the trim off (simple then), if you had any, and with sinking heart confronted the wheel nuts. These would have been pulled up tight by a gorilla on steroids :{, and brute force aplenty was the only answer now. Obviously the fewer of these to be shifted, the better. For most types I remember, four per wheel was the norm, now it's gone up to five and I wouldn't be surprised if they are running around with six. But surely, geometrically, three in an equilateral triangle should be enough. If not, why not ?

I suppose (having no more engineering expertise than the average layman) that the torque exerted by the studs on braking and acceleration might be sufficient to break the spokes or shear the metal of the wheel disk, so many studs would share out the load. But Peugeot were not convinced: they were of my opinion. They kept a three-stud system, and spread the load on the wheel disk like this:

Each nut had a captive washer of an oval plan, and shaped underneath, so that it would fit snugly against the fold in the sheet metal of the wheel through which the stud protruded. The mating brake drum was (I think) moulded so that it supported the fold area of wheel from the inside. Brilliant ? - Simple ? - Yes !

So you only had three nuts to struggle with (which, removed, you kept in the trim "dish"), wind up the side pillar jack, off with the wheel (on an unbraked wheel, the brake drum would often come off with the wheel, as it was only secured by the wheel studs), and on with the spare. Easy. Well, not quite. We all know the typical scenario. It's cold, it's raining, the water's dripping down your collar, you're up to your fetlocks in long wet grass, and the wet spare's playing peek-a-boo with the studs.

But have no fear, Peugeot is here. To get at the spark plugs, set deep in the hemispherical head, they gave you a long box spanner. But the tommy-bar was about ten inches (far too !) long. And on one end was formed a little cup which seemed to have no purpose. But now you looked at a wheel stud, and all became clear.

For the tip of the stud, beyond the threads, had been turned down into the form of a small grease-nipple (remember them ?). You seized the wheel: its fun was over. Through a hole you passed the tommy bar, the cup went on the end of a stud, you heaved the bar up , it pulled wheel and stud up together, the wheel slid smoothly down the bar on to the stud, and "Bob's yer Uncle".

Not exactly rocket science ? True - but none of the six cars we've had since (three French, one British, one Japanese pretending to be British and one German pretending to be Spanish) has taken the trouble to do this.

Cheers to you all,

Danny42C.


These little things are sent to try us

Reader123
17th Jan 2014, 18:05
The invasion (that failed) must have looked vaguely like the invasion of Rangoon towards the end of this film.


WW II in Color Battle for Burma - YouTube


Apropos of nothing, I also tripped over a 1943 film on how to operate and fly a B24 - in colour. There's an hour and a half of it:


WW2: Flying the B-24D 4 Engine Land Bomber (1943) Reel 1/2 - YouTube
WW2: Flying the B-24D 4 Engine Land Bomber (1943) Reel 2/2 - YouTube

Fareastdriver
17th Jan 2014, 18:46
A story about wheel studs.

In 1952 the family were going to drive down from RAF Heany, near Bulawayo, to Durban for a holiday. We had a 1935 Chevrolet that had stacks of room for the four of us. The luggage went on a rack on the back and there was also a roof rack. The spare wheel was mounted in the port front wing as was the fashion at the time. My father thought that it would be prudent to take an extra spare wheel. A friend of his who ran a used car business dismounted a spare wheel off a 1935 Chevrolet delux that had a spare mounted on each side.

We drove off to Durban, three days travelling, had a week or so in Durban and then proceeded back to Rhodesia. We had a punture just north of Johannesburg and because the hired wheel was underneath some cases we used our wing mounted spare. Just short of Messina, the border town on the Limpopo and then Rhodesia we had a second puncture.

We unloaded the luggage off the roof rack, my father congratulating himself on his forsight, Jacked it up and took off the offending wheel. My father was having some difficult refitting the spare and was getting somewhat annoyed that it would not go on. He was even more annoyed when I pointed out that the wheel had six holes in it and not five.

A passing motorist gave him a lift to Messina to get the punture fixed and the garage brought him back. (You couldn't leave you wife and kids behind whilst you got a puncture fixed in South Africa anymore).

Once mobile again we drove back home.

Why General Motors would change the specification of the wheel hubs just because the delux model had leather upholstery and two spares wheels is beyond me.

Geriaviator
18th Jan 2014, 11:51
http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y503/Oldnotbold/archdale_zps08e35cc9.jpg (http://s1278.photobucket.com/user/Oldnotbold/media/archdale_zps08e35cc9.jpg.html)

WE NOW know that the crew of Catalina Z-Zulu of 209 Sqn from Castle Archdale were guided by Enigma intelligence when they spotted the Bismarck, leading to its disablement by Swordfish torpedo-bombers of the Fleet Air Arm and its destruction by gunfire. Sadly there was no guidance on the dark December night when she flew into the mountains above Castlegregory in Co. Kerry, some 200 miles south of Lough Erne. The explosion of her depth charges was heard 20 miles away in Tralee, and a huge fireball lit the countryside for 30 seconds.

Training accidents were all too frequent, and the weather was often a factor. The magnetic compass swings wildly when disturbed by turning or turbulence, so it is linked to the direction indicator or DI -- an instrument stabilised by a spinning gyroscope, so its readings are constant. Early gyros had to be caged or locked to avoid damage as the flying-boats bounced over the waves on takeoff and landing, and released just before they became airborne.

The crew of a Catalina from the Canadian OTU at Killadeas, a few miles from Castle Archdale, omitted to uncage their DI and entered cloud at a few hundred feet. Under the torque from the engines the Catalina gently turned left, the trainee pilot failed to notice the turn on his instrument cross-check, and the aircraft disintegrated along the top of a ridge bordering Lough Erne. Alloy fragments can be found there to this day.

Later in the war the BABS system was installed at Castle Archdale, a vital aid to letdowns in Fermanagh’s winter weather of low cloud and misty hills. It did not help the crew of one returning Catalina which overflew the base and was never heard of again. The Cat and her crew rest somewhere beneath the waters of Lough Erne, their memorial a stone on the shore near Gay Island.

Sunderland ML743, which began this story, had taken off from Castle Archdale 30 minutes before crashing into the cloud-shrouded Donegal hills about 20 miles north of track, where her Pegasus engines lie to this day. Did her crew make a basic mistake in setting course? Was the wind far stronger than forecast? We’ll never know. As to the beacon at Ballyshannon, Desmond said it was low powered and besides the Cat nav gear was not very reliable.

“The old radio compass might work for weeks, then one day the cockpit acquired a whiff of burnt fish and we knew the set had gone U/s again. We always kept a detailed log and plot, using the beacons for confirmation rather than basic nav. And you’ll do the same if you know what’s good for you ...”

smujsmith
18th Jan 2014, 16:19
Cliffnemo,

Just a quick note chaps, from my recollection today (18th January) would have been the birthday of Cliff The threads originator, all those posts back. I believe his 101st birthday. I'm sure we'll all be hoisting one to him tonight, and hope the thread sees many more memorials to his great foresight in starting it. Cheers Cliff.

Smudge

Danny42C
18th Jan 2014, 18:38
Smudge,

Well said, Sir ! cliffnemo was the "Onlie Begetter" of our incomparable Thread; we all owe him a debt of gratitude; I hope that, wherever he is now, he's able to read what has developed from what he started (5,000+ Posts, a million "hits" and going strong).

Stop Press: ITV4, 2100Z tonight, "Memphis Belle" (the second, Hollywood-heroic version of the first real thing). Worth a look or record if you don't take it too seriously.

Danny.

Danny42C
18th Jan 2014, 20:18
Reader123,

Thanks for the YouTubes. The pictures of the monsoon mud are all too familiar; it was quite impossible to get or keep dry, but at least it was warm. Gen. Stilwell was known as "Vinegar Joe" to his troops, but they were operating in NE Burma on the Ledo Road campaign, and we didn't see much of them.

I'll try my hand at the B-24 !.....D.

Fareastdriver,

So there were six-hole jobs ! (Any advance on six ?)......D.

Geriaviator,

Sad stories indeed. And wasn't it an RCAF pilot who crippled Bismarck with his torpedo and allowed the pursuers to catch up and exact vengeance for Hood ?.......D.

Cheers, Danny,

Chugalug2
18th Jan 2014, 22:06
A glass duly raised to you Cliff. I doubt if you had any idea of what you were starting back then, but thank you for doing so. It has been a journey in the company of good friends and fellow aviators. Long may it continue!

Danny, as ever you give us a rich and varied diet to feast on. The Peugeot company certainly had an eye for detail, a real engineer's product rather than that of the beancounters. As to Dieppe, even if it were a cover to capture Enigma machines, it was poorly planned and the cost was out of all proportion to any supposed D-Day rehearsal lessons to be learned. The only lesson I would have suggested was not to put Mountbatten in charge of any thing larger than a whelk stall, but of course no such lesson was learned. Thanks for the Memphis Belle heads up, am watching it now as I type so I'm obviously not taking it that seriously!

Geriaviator, your picture of the Castle Archdale slipway is amazing. I haven't counted the number of Sunderlands and Catalinas crowded in such a narrow space but they must compete with the number of aircraft crowded onto a carrier deck. I assume that they were allocated to tasks from the waterfront first, or how else were the ones at the back ever going to get launched? I'm surprised anyway that so many were out of the water, presumably on trolleys, as I always understood that they were left at moorings between flights unless undergoing heavy maintenance or repair. The Sunderland's leading edges hinged down to form a gantry which could then be extended to encompass the engines for daily maintenance, though anything dropped was invariably lost of course.
The first amendment I carried out was to my newly issued QR's, from which I removed all regulations relating to the issue of hard lying allowances to crews required to slip moorings and spend all night taxiing Flying Boats into wind when bad weather required it.
Could your picture be taken after hostilities had ceased, and there was no further need to keep the aircraft waterborne and thus requiring less daily attention?

Great videos, Reader 123. The trick of synchronising adjacent propellers by bringing the strobing shadow formed between them to a halt is well recalled. The real trick then of course was to bring the beat between the port and starboard pairs to a halt as well. A game that kept Flight Engineers occupied throughout a flight. Later it could be done electronically, which in the end did for the Flight Engineers as well sadly.

ricardian
18th Jan 2014, 23:19
Not a great aircraft recognition buff but this photo of a two seater Spitfire over Kirkwall was recently posted on an Orcadian FB page
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1/1560553_619140914801011_172318297_n.jpg

More on this aircraft (http://www.ml407.co.uk/pages/history.html)

Fareastdriver
19th Jan 2014, 20:43
Warmtoast.
The West German Luftwaffe received a total of 915 Starfighters and during its period of service with the German armed forces, about 270 German Starfighters were lost in accidents, just under 30 percent of the total force, killing 110 pilots, hence the nickname "The Widowmaker".

During a boring afternoon Il looked the 104 accidents in service with the Luftwaffe.

GermanF104 (http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/aircraft_by_Type/GermanF104.htm)

With respect I first had the 104 descibed in that way to me by the USAF in Offut during 1962 with regard to the downwards ejector seat before they were in widespread service in Germany. As you have posted the GAF lost an awful lot but if you look down the list at the high percentages of CFITs then it can be argued that the aircraft was not necessarily the culprit

As I mentioned before. Blundering around Germany at low level at high speed and low vis was bl@@dy dangerous.

Danny42C
19th Jan 2014, 21:06
Chugalug (your #5014),

Your remark about the Peugeot 403 echoes almost exactly the concluding remarks of the Road Test in Motor and/or Autocar ca'55): "This car feels as if it has been screwed together - by engineers"....D.

ricardian,

Thank you for the lovely picture of the nicest thing it was ever my good fortune to fly. But your "more on this aircraft" - ain't ! The link takes us to the much better known ML407. This is PT462, another of the 20-odd originally converted by Vickers (how many are flying still, I don't know).

This is not a geekish point. I at first glance thought "what's happened to the r/t mast ?" (originally they were all vertical on the Spits). Now they seem to be set back at various angles on this conversion. I believe some of the MkIX(T)s have had teardrop canopies put on, and I suppose they would need the mast to be bent back for the open rear "bubble" to fit. But PT462 has the old, small canopies, they shouldn't need this. So why ? (there must be people reading this who know the answer).

This gives me an an opportunity to slip in a bit of text I've been hoarding for some time. It may be of interest:

Somewhere or other I saw a familiar shape. Shrouded as it was in a large loose tarpaulin, you couldn't mistake it - a Spitfire. I went over to have a look. Even with the cover on, there was something funny about the outline of this specimen. As I got closer, it seemed to be a two-humped camel.

This was my first sighting of the Mk.IX (T) - (indeed, I'd never even heard of such a thing before). I looked at it, interested. Who had done this ? And where ? And how ? And for Heaven's sake, Why ? I glanced along the fuselage. It was in the colours of the Belgian Air Force - so this must be an official "mod". When I got back to GK, a few people had heard about these things (it seemed there was more than one), but nobody knew much.

Only years later did I learn the full story (inter alia, from Wiki). The conversion, I first heard, had been done by Oxford Air Services (wrong - it was Vickers). The RAF had no interest in the thing apart from supplying surplus ex-war Mk.IXs for the job (true). Some 20 Vickers models were built (but there had been earlier one-offs). They had, apparently, been sold to India and Eire for their Air Forces. The Soviets had one or two "home-builts" (I doubt whether anyone got any royalties !)

To this, I could add "Belgium", and (so rumour went) "Holland". Curiously,for all the thousands of Spitfires which went to the scrapyard after the war, several of these 20 have survived, and often appear on TV and Press to keep the memory alive of Mitchell's incomparable masterpiece.

There is, I think, only one flying "Hurricane" left (in BBMF), which is a pity, for it did most of the "heavy lifting" in the BoB, but never acquired the "star" status (in public esteem) of its more glamorous rival.

Now we come to the most beguiling question of all - the "Why?". For a long time, I could see no sensible military purpose for the thing at all. But some time ago we had a discussion, on this very thread, about the feasibility of a TM direct to Spitfire training programme, and concluded that the idea was not impossible. Of course ! This could be exactly the way to do it ! It made sense.

You are a country building up a small, young Air Force. You have light aircraft flying around, and you can buy low-hours Spitfires for a song (In India's case, they already had battle experience with the Mk.XIVs, and had still got them - (except for the ones supposedly buried [???] in Burma :confused:). Why buy Harvards to bridge the gap - they will cost dollars, which then were like gold - when there is a much cheaper option (for sterling, too) ?.....D.

Cheers to you both, Danny.

ricardian
19th Jan 2014, 21:11
Danny42C - as I said I am hopeless on aircraft recognition, I was in ground signals 1959-73 and had minimal contact with aircraft. My only "proper" airfield posting was Akrotiri 1965-67. Glad you enjoyed the photograph and many thanks for your fascinating memories of your time in the RAF

DHfan
20th Jan 2014, 01:26
Danny
I'm glad to be able to tell you you're wrong regarding flying Hurricanes. The BBMF have two and in total there are around a dozen worldwide which is more than at any time in the last fifty years or so.

What you describe as the old small canopies on PT462 is the design the late Nick Grace came up with for ML407 as mentioned in Ricardian's link and afterwards used on several of the other survivors although at least one has since reverted to the original pattern.

mmitch
20th Jan 2014, 09:54
Danny.
Hawker Restorations have been steadily adding to the airworthy fleet of Hurricanes. They also restored the BBMF Hurricane that crash landed many years ago. I have read that they have the bones of a 2 seat Hurricane project in the pipeline...
Hawker Restorations Limited restorers of the Hawker Hurricane World War II aircraft (http://www.hawker-restorations-ltd.co.uk/)
mmitch.

Chugalug2
20th Jan 2014, 10:37
Geriaviator, I've just discovered the answer to my own question re the Castle Archdale picture that you posted. I found it at Wikki (where else?) which says:-
Sunderland and Catalina flying boats of RAF Coastal Command at Castle Archdale in Northern Ireland, January 1945.
The big freeze. Nearly all the aircraft on strength with three Coastal Command squadrons are visible here, drawn up out of the water at Castle Archdale in Northern Ireland as Logh Erne froze over in January 1945. More than 30 aircraft can be seen, including Sunderlands of No's 201 and 423 RCAF Squadrons and No 202 Squadron's Catalinas. here:-
File:Sunderland and Catalina flying boats of RAF Coastal Command at Castle Archdale in Northern Ireland, January 1945. CH14837.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sunderland_and_Catalina_flying_boats_of_RAF_Coastal_Com mand_at_Castle_Archdale_in_Northern_Ireland,_January_1945._C H14837.jpg)


One of the disadvantages of flying from a fresh water rather than sea water base, I guess. I recall a fellow pilot on 30 Squadron who had once flown Sunderlands, of which he spoke most fondly. He said that you needed to have as much Seamanship as Airmanship to operate them properly.

Danny42C
20th Jan 2014, 17:44
DHfan and mmitch,

This is very heartening news indeed - thanks ! I remember a time in the late '60s, at Leeming IIRC, when one (BBMF ?) came in for some reason and I climbed aboard furtively to have a look for old times' sake.

I was appalled at the host of little red warning plaques all over the front panels: Do not exceed 180 ASI, Do not do This, Do not do That - you'd be afraid to press the starter button !......D.

Chugalug,

(Tongue in cheek) How would it be if you just landed the 'boat gently on the ice surface ? Shouldn't cause any damage (I believe thay have been landed on runways when need arose - or when an amphibious Catalina pilot forgot the wheels !). And if the ice gave way when you came to rest, you'd float anyway. (Reminds me of the horror story from the Russian-Japanese war early last century: Lake Baikal was frozen really deep, they ran a temporary rail line over the ice to cut the corner, troop train goes puffing across, one stretch not frozen deep enough (unsuspected warm springs below).

Train plus track goes through. I believe the carriages are still there; the skeletons sitting with their rifles between their knees. :eek: Or so they say.

Admittedly, you'd have a long landing run, but then Lough Erne is very big, and I suppose you could cast out a kedge anchor ! How would the crew get ashore ? Teach 'em to skate !.....D.

Cheers, everybody. Danny.

Geriaviator
21st Jan 2014, 09:48
The prospect of landing a Sunderland on ice recalls an earlier Belfast-built craft. It was called the Titanic ... Seriously, fresh water avoids salt corrosion problems although the boats were all thoroughly protected with yellow jointing compound oozing from all faying surfaces. (I noticed some when visiting the IWM Sunderland many years ago, and the Belfast freighter was built the same way.)

Routine maintenance was done in the open, the majors in the hangars, more to protect the aircraft innards than the grease-monkeys. The Catalina base at Killadeas had a canopy at the end of the slipway just big enough to cover a pair of Twin Wasps.

As to maintenance on the buoy, my father told me that officialdom questioned Pembroke Dock's remarkable consumption of linen rigging cord for metal aircraft, and was told that the fitters tied every tool to their wrists. Otherwise, as Chugalug says, it was lost forever.

For a Sunderland-on-land-landing, see www.youtube (http://www.<b>youtube</b>).com/watch?v=cD00dqRbKzc

Reader123
21st Jan 2014, 16:57
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4GiyDOGdpM

A bit American and Pacific based, but some nice local colour for the flying boat posts. This Youtube malarkey is rather addictive... particularly all the colour film - for an era one assumes to have been lived in monochrome...

Danny42C
21st Jan 2014, 21:56
Reader 123, (your #5008 p.251 refers)

Thank you for the link: "WW2: Flying the B-24D 4 Engine Land Bomber (1943) Reel 1/2 - YouTube" (Reel 1). I was amused by the way that it jumps from take-off to landing with nothing in between (if only it were that that simple !)

But there is a hidden gem. If you run through it to the end, a little box of thumbnails appears. One is of a lone B-17. Pick that, and you get the original War Department "Memphis Belle" - the "real" one.....D.


Chugalug, (your #5014 p.251 refers)

This is worth a look. It reminds me of the Ministry of Information film "Target for Tonight" during the war, which put all its fictional followers in the shade....D.


DHfan, (your #5019 p.251 refers)

Thanks for the "gen" on the MkIX(T) canopies and radio masts. It might have been simpler to cut a hole a foot further back, extend the lead and reposition the mast, rather than bending it back as they did ...D.

My regards to you all, Danny.

Warmtoast
21st Jan 2014, 22:35
Geriaviator

As to maintenance on the buoy, my father told me that officialdom questioned Pembroke Dock's remarkable consumption of linen rigging cord for metal aircraft, and was told that the fitters tied every tool to their wrists.

When I flew with 205/209 Sqn from Seletar to China Bay, Ceylon (Sri Lanka) by Sunderland in 1957 I photographed the aircraft being refuelled at Glugor (Penang). The only thing being tied to anything to stop it dropping in the drink was the refuelling hose as seen below, although ISTR that the engineer had a screwdriver/spanner tied to his trousers just in case, but not visible in my photo.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20China%20Bay/ChinaBay-SunderlandOverwingrefuelling.jpg

Wander00
22nd Jan 2014, 09:14
Many years ago (60s) my OC Admin was a guy called Peter Moon. Years later when I was sec of large yacht club on the south coast he called in to see me. I was ver touched by this kind thought. Sadly he died not long after and I went to his funeral - there his story was told - left school young with no qualifications. Left a dead end job to join the wartime RAF and ended up on Sunderlands, I think at PD. One night in a gale he was the duty guy on a moored aircraft as a gale raged. Whatever he did he was reckoned to have saved the aircraft. Was later commissioned and ended up a gp capt. Amazing career, and someone from whom I learned a lot.

Chugalug2
22nd Jan 2014, 11:44
Danny:-
Pick that, and you get the original War Department "Memphis Belle" - the "real" one.....D.The Memphis Belle - A Story of a Flying Fortress (1944), Full Length Movie - YouTube


The real McCoy, as you say, Danny.


Warmtoast, interesting that the inboard props have been motored to 12 o'clock, which means that it is highly likely that so were the outboards. A simple bit of professional pride by the Flt Eng, or was this perhaps a VIP flight? Whatever, he will ensure that all the refuelling caps are properly and securely replaced afterwards, as is his responsibility.


Geriaviator, I think that I have found the footage that you refer to, as the link wouldn't work for me. The incident obviously justified the use of precious film stock, though I suspect it had to be taken surreptitiously, hence the shaky result. Here's my link, though no guarantee it will work either. Its title is; Sunderland flying boat "crash" landing on land :-


Sunderland flying boat "crash" landing on land - YouTube

Fareastdriver
22nd Jan 2014, 12:53
It;s a shame the picture is reversed. In real life it was on its port wingtip.

When I lived at RAF Aldergrove in the late forties I used to crawl around a Sunderland that was in the aircraft dump with various Lancasters and Halifaxs. How it got there I do not know; the road from Lough Neagh was impossibly narrow including a steep hump backed railway bridge; so it was possible that it landed on tha concrete at Aldergrove for some reason.

I had this idea of converting one of the floats to a boat but the RAF police kept chasing me off the site.

orkneyman
22nd Jan 2014, 15:00
Supermarine Spitfire Registry - A Warbirds Resource Group Site (http://www.warbirdregistry.org/spitregistry/spitfire-pt462.html)



Missing from the photograph is the credit which should be given to Jean Marie Urlacher, Aviation photographer and pilot.

N

Warmtoast
22nd Jan 2014, 15:50
Chugalug2

A simple bit of professional pride by the Flt Eng, or was this perhaps a VIP flight?

Probably SOP in those days (see the photo below of one of 205/209's Sunderland's moored at China Bay with props nicely lined up) - and with me aboard definitely NOT a VIP flight! It was just a standard rotation of the SAR aircraft detached to China Bay

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20China%20Bay/SunderlandOPP112_zps276fe3c0.jpg

Danny42C
22nd Jan 2014, 19:31
Matters administrative would now be worthy of note. I'm not sure of the order of events, but it doesn't matter anyway. First was a Letter from Higher Authority (probably "Personal and Confidential" - which is always bad news).

I opened it in fear and trembling. But it was not what I expected. It seemed that the Air Council, in pursuance of A.M.O so-and-so, were graciously minded to continue my employment (n.b: I do not use the word "career") up to the age of 55, five years longer than my original contract, on the existing terms, if I so wished.

Cave Daneos, et dona ferentes (Beware of the Greeks bearing gifts !). There had to be a catch in this somewhere. I turned up the A.M.O. and read the fine print with infinite care. But it appeared clear that acceptance would in no way inhibit a PVR after the age of 50 (and in fact I was to leave at 51). What could we lose ?

Aged 40, 50 was a long way off, and 55 even further. But already our thoughts had begun to dwell on the gap ahead between leaving the Service and State Pension age. It's a nice balance, leave at 50 with a poor prospect of further employment and 15 years to fill, or hang on to 55 with only 10 years but a worse prospect.

We discussed it: this way, we could keep our options open: we decided to accept.

************

I'd finished my ATC Course at Shawbury in July,'55, leaving with no personal documentary evidence of the fact. You just turned up at your posting, said "Hello, Sir" to the SATCO, he gave you Station Flying Orders, said "Read, Learn, Inwardly Digest - and sign here. So-and-so will show you round the place, you'll be on the roster on Approach Monday morning. Any Questions ? No ? Then welcome aboard, and Good Luck".

Oddly enough, this "Sink or swim" introduction worked quite well. You must remember that then the intakes were, almost without exception, still ex-wartime aircrew, with a preponderance of pilots and navigators. All the procedures were familiar to you from your time on the "other side of the fence". You were speaking the same language, the abbreviations used were second nature to you, you knew what an aircraft could (and could not) be asked do, and you were talking to people who'd so recently might have been your squadron mates. Short of flying yourself, what's not to like ?

Early the next year I went back to Shawbury for the month long GCA course at Sleap, came back, same thing. You became a fully qualified Controller by a sort of osmosis. The years went by, I did tours at Strubby, Thorney Island, and was now almost two years into a tour at GK. Then the RAF started to have scruples. This wasn't really a professional way to go about things. There should be some sort of body set up to oversee the standards of Controlling, and to assess the competence of those already engaged in this black art.

Hitherto, the ATC Branch had been self-policing, in the sense that an incompetent Controller must stick out like a sore thumb; the pilots will be up in arms immediately; OC(F) will have him out at once. But now an ATC Examining Board was established at Shawbury, and on every station a Local Examining Officer was appointed (usually, but not invariably, the SATCO). His task was to satisfy himself that each newcomer was safe to stand a solo watch before turning him loose in a particular chair.

And so it was that all Controllers and aspirants fresh from Shawbury, were issued with a Certificate of Competency (Form 5994). This took the form of a very pretty little hard-backed booklet, about 4x5 inches, pale blue with silver embossed lettering (later, I'm told, in gold - missed out again !). Basically, this was analagous to a pilot's Log Book, for in it the LEO certified that the owner was competent to operate unsupervised in every separate position in the tower and/or Truck (Local - Approach - Radar Director - Precision Approach - etc).

As these certificates were valid only for the station at which they were issued, you had to collect another lot on each new posting, and your book soon filled up (I count 35 items on 17 certicates). Of course, the people who'd been doing it for years, without being responsible for any major disasters, got a free ride to begin with.

And so, on 1st January, 1962, I was issued with Certificate No. 513, duly signed by a Sqn.Ldr. Butt, of the ATC Examining Board, which takes pride of place after my Logbook on the shelf now (having been left behind at Leeming when I retired, it caught up with me four months later, courtesy of Tom Davison) .

Enough for the moment,

Cheers, everybody,

Danny42C


(Unworthy Jest): "Those who can, Do....those who can't, Instruct....those who can neither Do nor Instruct go on the Examining Board". (Sorry, MPN11 !)

goofer3
22nd Jan 2014, 21:30
A link to the story of Sunderland T9114 landing ;

Sunderland flying boat landed on a Pembrokeshire airfield (http://www.pembroke-dock.co.uk/enews17thjuly2013sunderlan.htm)

dogle
22nd Jan 2014, 21:51
Oh, no, Danny - by no means unworthy ..... and but barely in jest (where so many a true word be spoken!).

The late Professor Parkinson wrote lightheartedly in his most popular work about the alarming rise of the admirals/ships ratio, etc., but his analysis of the inexorable rise of bureaucracy remains ghoulishly apposite.

During the war bureaucracy was, no doubt, very much in place (as in the 'seditious' song, "We are the Whitehall Warriors!") but I suspect that it was somewhat contained because of the importance of the job in hand, and the willingness of those actually doing the job to challenge the desk drivers from time to time (would you agree?). Now, of course, it seems practically unbridled ....

I am mindful of the comment of a distinguished Indian aviator .... 'The British introduced us to bureaucracy ... and we perfected it!'.

ricardian
22nd Jan 2014, 22:07
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/1536661_10151888388831034_1471995149_n.jpg

Accompanying text RAF Manston CR 62 in the for ground, AR-1 and on the far right DRDF

smujsmith
22nd Jan 2014, 22:21
Danny,

The competency book sounds akin to a little gem they dropped on ground tradesmen. I seem to remember getting my "Record of Tradesmans Qualifications and Experience" (I forget the form number now), mid 70s. Everywhere I went I had to be re qualified to Marshall, refuel etc etc. I still have the book somewhere and if I find it, it will probably bring back some memories. I do remember thinking though that, at the point of introduction, my "record" was to be effectively zeroed. It was not retrospective for us older sweats, so our experience started on day of issue of book, as opposed to the preceding 15 or 20 years of service. I must say, I never found a use for that particular tome, it may explain why I'm not sure of its location at the moment.

Your journey towards the Royal Air Force that I knew is moving on, and I for one am starting to see things, in your story, that are familiar to my service. It's interesting to see how someone of your experience and history sees the things I also saw and I, like many look forward to your continuing career, even if it is in "Air Tragic" :oh: keep it going Danny, "memoriam fecit hoc" (Dean Martin 1964).

Smudge :ok:

Danny42C
22nd Jan 2014, 23:23
dogle,

We may have introduced bureaucracy to India: they took to it like ducks to water ! The "babu" was as essential to any Indian enterprise in my time as is the computer today. Come to think of it, one is the logical development of the other, and I understand they're well in the forefront of the IT business in places like Bangalore. (Perhaps they could be induced to come over and sort out some of our Departmental Planners' latest string of monumental computer disasters ?)....D.

ricardian,

The AR62 (long after my time !) looks a very useful piece of machinery indeed. When did it come on the market, and did the RAF buy any ? (Having said that, I suppose the old PAR really did all you could reasonably want).

The AR-1 is a good old-timer, and could the "DR/DF" possibly be a CR/DF (do the civvies still use VHF ?) or a CA/DF ?......D.

Smudge,

It was ever thus: "Plus ça change, plus c'ést la même chose" runs through the RAF generations......D.

Never had much contact with the "boat" people, but have been waiting for an old Tee Emm photo to appear (succintly captioned: "Sunderland - under water" ! [top half visible] that I remember).

Cheers, Danny.

ancientaviator62
23rd Jan 2014, 08:20
smudge,
as an ex Air Radar Fitter I do not recall any documentation that qualified me to work on the fighter a/c (Javelin, Hunter and Lightning) that I did minster to. But I can recall as a J/T (single upside down stripe) being issued with an 'oversigning chit'. This gave me the technical authority of a Cpl without the benefit of the rank OR the pay.
Once I became aircrew then the Cat Card (blue with black lettering as I recall) did define what I was qualified to do. And a certificate in my log book (signed by OC Eng Wing) authorised me to do Role changes.

ricardian
23rd Jan 2014, 15:11
Danny42C said The AR62 (long after my time !) looks a very useful piece of machinery indeed. When did it come on the market, and did the RAF buy any ? (Having said that, I suppose the old PAR really did all you could reasonably want).
The AR-1 is a good old-timer, and could the "DR/DF" possibly be a CR/DF (do the civvies still use VHF ?) or a CA/DF ?......D.


Sorry Danny but I cannot help you, it was a photograph I saw on an RAF group in Facebook. I was in ground signals (commcen - telegraphist) and had little or no contact with ATC matters.

Warmtoast
23rd Jan 2014, 22:05
Danny

The AR62 (long after my time !) looks a very useful piece of machinery indeed. When did it come on the market, and did the RAF buy any ?

From Flightglobal

Cossor PAR enters service.

Wyton is the first RAF Strike Command airfield to have the new Cossor CR-62 precision approach radar (PAR). Cossor has previously delivered three systems, two for technician training at Locking, and one for flight trials at Linton-on-Ouse. A total of 43 CR-62s are scheduled for delivery over the next five years. The contract is worth about £22 million at today’s prices. The CR-62 uses the same antennas as the old SLA-3 system, but they are being refurbished and fitted with simpler drive units and direct digital angle pick-offs. The radar uses solid-state components and modular construction. Range is 18 n.m. for a 1m- target, and the PAR features selectable digital moving target indication and a video correlator, to improve weather clutter rejection.

Details here: www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1982/1982%20-%201904.html (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1982/1982%20-%201904.html)

Brian 48nav
24th Jan 2014, 09:36
Chug'2 in post #5021 mentions a fellow pilot on 30 Sqn ( Hercs' at Fairford then ) as being ex-Sunderlands - that was a New Zealander 'Abe' Lincoln, sadly RIP. I wonder was he on 205/209 with you?


I had the privilege of being his nav' on quite a few occasions while on 30 - very old school but what a man!


While I was at LATCC as a civilian ATCO in the late 70's I found that one other ATCO had flown with Abe on Sunderlands ( Frank Leeming, a nav') and another on Shackletons ( Bob Trott,a siggie ). The big boss of LATCC in 1980, Keith Mack, I believe had flown as Abe's co-pilot on Sunderlands.


I still love reading this thread everyday!

Warmtoast
24th Jan 2014, 10:04
Brian 48Nav

I was never a member of 205/209 but I had several trips in 205/209's Sunderlands whilst stationed at Seletar and China Bay (1957-58) before being posted to Gan.

One particular flight I enjoyed was when I returned to China Bay by Sunderland after a spot of leave in Singapore. Having overnighted at Glugor (Penang) we took-off on the long flog to China Bay and after an hour or so at 7,000ft or thereabouts to get cool the Captain descended to around 500ft and enquiring of the signaller in charge of the brew operating the Primus in the galley why we had descended, was told that the Captain (a Flt. Lt. D. Fairbairn) enjoyed his tea which had to be made in the proper English manner with boiling water, and as any fule no's water boils at a lower temperature when at altitude. Hence the captain descending to make tea at the point where water boiled at the correct boiling point for a perfect cuppa! With the tea made, up we went again.

The navigator on that trip had a Dutch sounding name (Flt. Lt. Van Wadenoijen - not sure if the spelling is correct).

Not sure if the names ring any bells with you, but passed on for info.

Geriaviator
24th Jan 2014, 15:09
Many years later, during my instrument training behind a set of angled plastic screens which blocked my view but not my instructor’s, Desmond set me a simulated Catalina sortie. We would leave our base in the east of Ireland, fly west for an hour at Cat patrol speed of 120 mph, then return to Lough Erne. I would enter ‘cloud’ under the screens at 200ft and fly the sortie on instruments, without radio aids, just as he and his comrades had done 25 years before.

We flew over Lough Erne and out over the Atlantic for about 20 miles before turning and letting down for Lough Erne. I was down to 800ft and becoming quite tense, imagining that we would have been peering for a landmark. “Any sign of landfall?” asked Desmond, enjoying his view of a fine summer’s day over Donegal. “Not yet”, I replied. “I’ll let down another 200ft”.

Another five minutes, and Desmond took over. “I have control ... take a look over your shoulder”. As he rolled into a steep turn, I glimpsed rocky hillsides all around us. Had our sortie been genuine I would have flown into the Derryveagh Mountains, as two wartime patrols had done before me. A southerly wind had blown me 20 miles north of track, and given me a lesson I would never forget ... not least when I stood before the headstones of those who had paid the ultimate price for the same mistake.

Today the vast base at Castle Archdale has become a caravan park, and speedboats have replaced Sunderlands on the huge concrete slipway. Boat trailers are secured to the tiedown points which once anchored the flying boats. The ops room building has become a shop, and a few shelters and a bomb store are dotted around the grounds. The great house itself is used for outdoor pursuits and contains a small museum telling the story of the great Atlantic battle. A few miles away the Catalina 131 OTU at Killadeas is the home of Lough Erne Yacht Club, and the nearby officers’ mess has long since gone back to being the Manor House Hotel.

Only the rows of neat headstones in Irvinestown Cemetery mark the last resting place of those who gave their all.

Danny42C
24th Jan 2014, 23:03
Warmtoast,

Thanks for the "gen", the pictures and the link. So we've bought 43 of these CR-62s ? A quick Google/Wiki for "List of RAF Airfields" gives a (very rough) total of 25 flying stations (including those leased to our Gallant Ally). Am I missing something ?

I must say that it looks very nice kit indeed. The sheer size of the thing is impressive. Perhaps you might need it. I quote: "Range is 18 n.m. for a lm²- target" (so a bumble bee at ½-mile ?) - you'd need 20/20 vision to see it on the tube !, and "the PAR features selectable digital moving target indication and a video correlator, to improve weather clutter rejection"

(Pardon me ? - we just had plain old MTI on the CPN-4 and PAR [a CPN-4 come in out of the cold] - and even with that you could mistake a flying duck for an aircraft close in, if you weren't careful).

I've been away from this game too long, I suppose....D.


Brian 48nav,

Thank you for the kind words - we've got a good thing going here....D.


Geriaviator,

A sobering story indeed. Makes you realise what life was really like in the days when the cloud you were in suddenly turned green - then you didn't see anything ever again (RIP for all of them) ....D.

Cheers to all, Danny.

Danny42C
27th Jan 2014, 17:06
Too much was happening right up to the Christmas of '61 to be able to think about a skiing holiday that winter. And we should be going back home to the UK in the autumn of '62. So it would be "Now or never" in '61. Actually it would have to be in the first weeks of January'62, as that is the cheapest time of year. From February onwards the prices steadily climb as the weather warms up. (AFAIK, this holds true for all resorts in the Northern hemisphere).

People didn't organise their own Holidays Abroad at that time - the package holiday companies had the trade all to themselves. "Abroad" was a strange place to most of the British public. You needed someone to support you out there. Erna Low (now apparently the longest running UK ski company) was a major player in those days. We organised a heavily discounted all-in package for two weeks in Gargellen (Vorarlberg, Austria) with them. I can't remember what it cost, but it can't have been much.

I would suppose that travel was then the major cost of a ski holiday from the UK. Ryanair and Easyjet were far in the future. And in the "dead" season in mid-January, the hotels were desperate for guests at any price which would cover their costs - it was unthinkable to close for two or three weeks, for the whole village depended on you - you had to keep going.

So when Erna Low got a customer who would make his own way to the resort and back, they could cut a very good deal for us indeed. The ski, boot and kit hire shops had all the stuff on the shelves; anything is better than nothing for them, same with ski lift Passes. Actually, we kitted ourselves out locally in GK or Holland, and we bought our own boots. These were not far removed from the modified Army boots I'd had in Kashmir, for cable-bindings were still in general use, you needed a flexible sole to allow the heel to rise for "lang-lauf" ( the level "Nordic" cross-country travel) still on the menu. The only other difference was: they were laced-up with "hooks & eyes" (like a skating boot), to allow you a tighter lace-up over the instep.

We were booked into the Hotel Madrisa at Gargellen. I can't recall any other large hotels in the village then; today there seem to be plenty of them, but for some reason you have to hunt for the Madrisa by name - they don't seem to need to advertise widely. First problem would be to get there.

In Germany in 1961 (and everywhere else then in Europe as far as we could see), the answer was simple - chains ! Chain up the driving wheels, and your car will keep traction in most of the snow you'll meet. And we didn't even have to buy a set. One of our fellow ATCs had a pair of the same tyre size as ours; the camp, town roads and autobahnen were kept open by the authorities, so he wouldn't need them. We borrowed them for the fortnight. But the road police wouldn't allow you even to attempt a mountain road without chains, you'd be turned back at a check-point at the bottom. As 30 mph is about the limit with them fitted, we drove down the autobahn with them in the boot, and fitted them at the base of the climb.

Anyone intending to use chains needs to practise putting them on first - in the warm and dry ! I picked my chains up at the Tower and fitted them on and off the spare until I'd got the hang of it - and then tried it on the car. Early on the Saturday morning we packed ourselves, ski kit, all our woolies and Mary's toboggan into the car and hit the road.

And the rest of the story will have to wait till next time. (what did we do about frost prevention in our CH system ?) Can't remember, maybe we had to have it drained down by the Station Engineer or someone must have kept the boiler going.

Goodnight, all,

Danny 42C.


Keep the home fires burning !

PS: Today is the second anniversary of my first Post. Never thought it (or I) would last that long !

Eheu ! fugaces labuntur anni ( Alas ! - how fleetingly the years go by).....D.

Fareastdriver
27th Jan 2014, 18:40
Never thought it (or I) would last that long !


You have had, and still have, something to keep your brain in gear.

smujsmith
27th Jan 2014, 19:25
Ha ha Danny,

We've got you now, no stopping until the job is done :ok: Well done on reaching this anniversary, but if you want some real credibility it will take at least 10 years.

"soll niemand setlle für weniger als die ganze Geschichte"

Smudge :ok:

Danny42C
28th Jan 2014, 17:29
Fareastdriver,

I've often thought, that if all pensioners not already on line were issued with simple laptops at 65, (and OU programme of basic instructions for them run on BBC Channel 2 in the black hours), then the onset of Alzheimers might to some extent be delayed, and existing cases stabilised. You'd only have to do this for 10-15 years until the computer literate generations caught up.

All muscles atrophy with lack of use, and I'd think that brain cells might well do the same. The consequent savings to the NHS might even pay for it ! (I stand to be shot down on this)....D.

Smudge,

Never fear: "dum spiro, scribo" shall be my motto. Die Ganz Geschicte is unterwegs - aber nur langsam !...D.

Cheers, both, Danny.

Fareastdriver
28th Jan 2014, 19:02
I agree with you Danny. Those who pick a new hobby or join a social gathering where they have to DO something last a lot longer than the couch potatoes.
Personally I use the computer to keep abreast, and therefore an interest, in the world around me. There is a vicious solo game called Mah Jong I play to test my eye/hand coodination to the extreme.

Having said that I will probably croak tomorrow.

smujsmith
28th Jan 2014, 19:07
Keep them coming then Danny "amici mei sufflabo in custodiam, scripta sunt omnia amet".:ok:

Smudge

ricardian
28th Jan 2014, 22:37
After the chat about furnishings in OMQ and AMQ - does this (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Danish-Teak-Tallboy-Chest-of-Drawers-Storage-Unit-Retro-1960s-/291054527716?roken=53toCC) look familiar?

MPN11
29th Jan 2014, 10:57
(Unworthy Jest): "Those who can, Do....those who can't, Instruct....those who can neither Do nor Instruct go on the Examining Board". (Sorry, MPN11 !)

No apology needed, Danny. I was never an Instructor or an Examiner, just a Do-er :cool:

Endorsed LEO at Eastern Radar, Waddington and Stanley, though. Does that constitute a blot on my record?

(Just returned from holiday, and much enjoyed catching up with some great posts and links)

Danny42C
29th Jan 2014, 16:18
Fareastdriver,

Nay, lad ! While it is true that: "you know not the day nor the hour", from your writings you must be at least a generation behind me, and so good for a long time yet !

I remember Mah Jong (wasn't it all about building a wall or something ?), but it looks so fearfully complicated that I shied away from it at first glance. Now Chess (schoolboy level) is/was more in my line .....D.

Smudge,

I have to admit defeat this time ! I gather that you're going to get annoyed with something (jail ? - surely not ! - that your friends are involved - and that somebody enjoys (amet) all writings (I'm off the beam, aren't I ?)

"Amo, amas, a mattress" (Graffiti seen on London Tube years ago)....D.

ricardian,

Not in RAF(G) in the early '60s (it would have been all beech, and your link says it was teak). Mid-'60s, don't remember anything like it in MQs (those legs !)......D.

MPN11,

Missed the LEOs didn't I ? Never mind, I suppose they could be classed as Do-ers (Record Unblotted !) In any case, anyone who's done even one tour as a battery hen in Area Radar is entitled to our sympathy - much may be forgiven him ! - (Sour grapes, of course - I was never a LEO - too kind hearted ?)

The Falklands must have been interesting. With the nearest land about three hundred miles away (and no airways or Controlled Airspace - other than yourself ?), Horizontal Separation can hardly have been a problem. (Penguin strikes ?)

There has to be a story here. Let's hear it, please...D.

Regards to all, Danny.

smujsmith
29th Jan 2014, 18:20
Danny,

Apologies, my misinterpretation of your previous post. I do suspect that at a mere 60 years old, my ability to remember the limited languages I used to enjoy learning are suffering badly. Perhaps an early "senior moment"? I'll stick to English in future, at least then I think I know what I mean to say.:ugh: My basic suggestion was that there's plenty more of your story to come, hopefully, and we will not be happy until we've had the lot from you Sir ! (Now I'm for it, Jankers at least). Standing by for the next post, or orders to report :eek:

Smudge :ok:

Danny42C
29th Jan 2014, 18:46
Smudge,

Now I'm at sea ! Recap:

"amici mei sufflabo in custodiam, scripta sunt omnia amet" (your #5050).

Construe, please, Smudge.

THEN: Enuff of Zees Nonsense (yes I know I started it !). English TFN !

Next Post on stocks.

Danny.

ricardian
30th Jan 2014, 10:23
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t1/1551511_606969139378682_1781542958_n.jpg

Warmtoast
30th Jan 2014, 15:54
Danny42C

Anyone intending to use chains needs to practise putting them on first - in the warm and dry!

I heartily agree. Married as I am to a lass from Vorarlberg, driving in the snow was drummed into me from my first visit to Austria in the winter. Mind you forty-odd years ago things were comparatively primitive, but basic sense drummed into me by the locals was worth it's weight in gold and I can honestly say I've never been caught out by being unprepared when going over various Austrian, Swiss and Italian passes in the winter months.

Here's a shot of my BFG registered Volvo going over the Hochtannberg pass in Austria. A quiet and isolated pass with sparse traffic as seen here. If one broke down just wait (hope) for a car/lorry to come along to help. No mobile phones in those days!

As a PS I enlarged the photo to see what the diamond-shaped object was part the way up the hill to the right. Appears very much like a memorial (denkmal) that the Austrians are prone to erect in memory to someone who's came a cropper in a road accident, so in icy conditions treat this corner with respect!

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/VolvoinSnow_zps4e7405a0.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/VolvoinSnow2_zps1ea9e812.jpg

Meanwhile if travelling over the Brenner Pass in Italy one is prompted by signs telling you what to do.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/SnowChainsRequired2_zpsb59d0f22.jpg

Whilst in Germany road signs inform you that snow chains are necessary, and being German the police will fine you if you're not wearing them after passing this sign.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/SnowChainsRequired_zps5177ec9f.jpg

Is it worth telling all how I purchased this Volvo duty-free etc. whilst based at JHQ Rheindahlen - or would this be too much thread creep?

Danny42C
30th Jan 2014, 23:51
Warmtoast,

Don't see why anyone would object (can't speak for the Mods, of course). But if you have some good "gen" which may be useful to others on this Thread, why not ?

Long time ago, when currency restrictions were much tighter than now, I think you had to do the deal in UK and in sterling, but I suppose it's all different today. Did you still have the two-year rule (car has to stay out of UK for two years before you can bring it in tax (VAT ?) free ?

Lovely pics: very nostalgic. Note how clear the roads were kept - in contrast to ours ! The rest of Europe watches on in amusement as Britain slides into chaos when a few inches of snow come down. It does not seem to occur to us that, as snow has fallen most winters from time immemorial, there is a high probability that it'll happen again this year. So we take no sensible precautions and are caught out every time.

However, this is starting to change. The sales of monstrous 4x4 "Chelsea Tractors" are booming, and those unwilling or unable to re-mortgage the family home to buy one, must content themselves with a set of snow tyres. As these really need a spare set of wheels to go with them, that isn't a cheap option either.

Danny.

PS: As Mrs W. is a native of the region, she may cast a critical eye on my memories of Gargellen (always remembering that they are 53 years old now !)...D.

MPN11
31st Jan 2014, 09:51
Missed the LEOs didn't I ? Never mind, I suppose they could be classed as Do-ers (Record Unblotted !) In any case, anyone who's done even one tour as a battery hen in Area Radar is entitled to our sympathy - much may be forgiven him ! - (Sour grapes, of course - I was never a LEO - too kind hearted ?)
....
There has to be a story here. Let's hear it, please...D.

The Local Examining Officer (LEO) is at the core of the RAF ATC System. In the 1960s, Instructors like Danny42C at the Central Air Traffic Control School (CATCS) taught people the basics - how to drink without falling over after OCTU, how to operate the kit, the National and RAF rules and procedures, and all that. Nothing has changed there. But, as you all know, every airfield is different. So, emerging from CATCS as a ‘real plt off’, you hit your first posting. The old system is now more grown-up: so being able to fly a Vultee Vengeance doesn’t do it any more!! The new kids on the block have to be introduced properly to being ATCOs. So, its a world of On Job Training (OJT) overseen by the SATCO and conducted, mainly, by whoever happens to be on watch in that control position on that day.

The novice, having learned the basics at CATCS, now has to implement whatever is in the Station Flying Order Book and ATC Order Book. Local variations inevitably are legion - you are there to look after the aircraft of that Unit, in the way they (and higher formations, such as Gp and Cmd) require. So you do your time in whatever position it is, until someone says “He’ll do”. At this point steps in the LEO. Usually the LEO will be the SATCO, but a bigger Units there may be a 2nd LEO … and they are both examined and endorsed as such by the ATC Examining Board, after rigorous theoretical and practical examinations in all control positions.

Local Training Team. We didn’t really have those when I started - just whoever was on watch in that position on that day. Some were brilliant teachers, others were a PITA. Being whacked with a Nav Ruler wasn’t training, Pete!! But the majority were good old WW2 guys, trying to feed us into being both officers and ATCOs. These days it’s far more efficient and better managed, and usually only selected ATCOs conduct OJT with new arrivals.

Theory. Just like aircrew, we can’t carry the piles of documents with us to the operating position. The average ATC pile is about 2-3 ft high, and most of it requires instant recall when you’re on the job. The Practical Knowledge (PK) Exam from the ATCEEB or the LEO is scary … some is total recall (FOB etc) or ‘deep knowledge’ where you need to be able to go straight to the right AP or FLIP and open the right page without hesitation to produce the right answer (having checked for FLIP Amendments, of course).

Practical. Do it by the book, maintaining prescribed separation efficiently and without pi$$ing people around. “Safe, Orderly and Expeditious flow of Air Traffic”. If you can’t do that, you need more OJT … or a career in the RAF Regt, or Fighter Control, or Admin (Sec) :uhoh:

So … the LEO is the person who signs off as competent every controller at that Unit, for every operating position after both practical and theory examinations, with the written authority of the ATCEEB by virtue of the endorsement as LEO his F5994. And every Endorsement in your F5994 expires on posting, and at the next Unit the whole process starts over again!
(I see that on 21 Apr 83 I was endorsed for RA (Radar Approach) on the new AR15 radar by my 2nd LEO at Waddington - I wonder who had endorsed him on the new kit?? Must have been an ATCEEB special visit.)

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/Scan-1.jpeg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/Scan-1.jpeg.html)

Geriaviator
31st Jan 2014, 11:00
Danny: fear not Mrs. W, my memories of 53 yrs ago paint places in a rosier glow than they have today!

Chelsea tractors: many or most cannot use their capabilities, and when one loses two tons of tractor it takes considerable room to get it back, as I discovered in 14 years' LWB Land-Rover operations. And few realise that their massive go-anywhere 4wd has only as much traction as the 2wd saloons stuck in line up the hill ahead.

I flew from a light snow layer one day. Taxi and turning was no problem, but when angled across the taxiway to run up the park brake had no effect whatever and I throttled back PDQ. When I tried to push the brute into the hangar I fell flat on my face. Serves me right for not following the national line and Staying Inside in Snow.

clicker
31st Jan 2014, 14:36
MPN11,

Good training there, sign you off on a piece of kit (AR15) and then post you off so far away so you can't use it.

MPN11
31st Jan 2014, 16:58
Good training there, sign you off on a piece of kit (AR15) and then post you off so far away so you can't use it.

Yeah, but the Tactical AR-1 at Stanley took me back to the days of working MPN-11 in the dark. Broad experience, flexibility, and all that - although i was sorry to see Stanley didn't have goosenecks. :eek: ;)

Warmtoast
31st Jan 2014, 16:59
Re all this talk of Air Traffic Control. I was never an ATCO, but filled in my early days at RAF Thornhill (5FTS), S. Rhodesia as an Air Traffic Control Assistant, probably the lowest for of life in the control tower apart from the tea lady. Anyway here's what I looked like in 1951 as I manned the fiendishly complicated ATC in the absence of an ATCO.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/ThornhillATC2_zpsfe7ac14b.jpg


The board was designed locally to try and keep tabs on the various aircraft as they started, taxied, took-off and either did circuits and bumps of left the local area and vice-versa as they returned - it never did with any degree of success what it was designed to do, but as Thornhill had 27 Chipmunks, 60 Harvards and a variety of Ansons on strength it was not surprising!

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/ThornhillATC_zps8cdbf15a.jpg


...and the Thornhill ATC.

MPN11
31st Jan 2014, 17:02
VERY nice, warmtoast :ok:

Memories of the Akeroyd Board (invented by [subsequently] Gp Capt Stubby Akeroyd) where the Local controller moved those devilishly sharp map pins, with c/s on them, around the pin-board with the diagram of the circuit pattern ... which was then repeated in lights on a circuit diagram in the darkened Approach room.

Having stabbed myself endlessly with those bloody (literally) pins in Local, I confess I hardly ever bothered to look up at the Approach repeater display. GCA had priority anyway, and the circuit state was given when they overshot/rolled and went to Local. It must have had some use, at some locations, but it eluded me!

Danny42C
31st Jan 2014, 18:12
MPN11,

I quote your: "(I see that on 21 Apr 83 I was endorsed for RA (Radar Approach) on the new AR15 radar by my 2nd LEO at Waddington - I wonder who had endorsed him on the new kit?? Must have been an ATCEEB special visit.)"

A case of "Quis custodiet custodes ipsos ?" - or, "which came first, the chicken or the egg ?"

Seriously, delighted to have you on board ! Another contributor is always as welcome here as flowers in Spring; gives us all something new to "get our teeth into". For a start, it's been fascinating for me to read how far later ATC training policies had developed from the rude practices of my day. Makes me wonder how we ever managed at all !

I can relate to your opening remarks about Shawbury in the '60s. In my years there, I came to three distinct conclusions about what the place was for . First, I adopted the Received Wisdom that it turned out Air Traffic Controllers. After a while it became clear that that was complete nonsense. What it did was to turn out the skeletons of ATCs, who later would be clothed by the flesh of experience. At the end, the truth dawned: it was no more than a giant Aptitude Test. If you could hack it there, you could learn to be an ATC on your Station (and vice versa !)

Now I leave the field to others, and await your "Funny Things which Happened to Me on the Way to the Theatre" (aka Early Flying Days in the True Blue, stude at Shawbury, and all points up the Greasy Pole).

All the best, Danny.

BTW - has anyone else noticed the enormous jumps in the "Views" totals on this Thread over the past week or so ? (we must be doing something right)...D.

clicker
31st Jan 2014, 18:24
Ye gods Warmtoast, I was minus 1 when that photo was taken.

Lowly job as an ATCA, maybe, but a vital one methinks. I would have been happy doing that.

clicker
31st Jan 2014, 18:27
Talking about ATC. Does anyone know if Swanwick Mil allows vistors?

Would love to see how that operates.

Thanks

MPN11
31st Jan 2014, 19:19
I can relate to your opening remarks about Shawbury in the '60s. In my years there, I came to three distinct conclusions about what the place was for . First, I adopted the Received Wisdom that it turned out Air Traffic Controllers. After a while it became clear that that was complete nonsense. What it did was to turn out the skeletons of ATCs, who later would be clothed by the flesh of experience. At the end, the truth dawned: it was no more than a giant Aptitude Test. If you could hack it there, you could learn to be an ATC on your Station (and vice versa !)

You speak the Truth, Brother. I doubt there is any training establishment that produces a fully-formed operator, whether with a control column, spanner, pen or an MPN-11 ;)

You guys at CATCS and similar establishments, as you said, built the skeleton ... the Units put the flesh on the bones, and experience adds the muscle.

But ... no selection process is perfect. 'Aptitude Test' is a fair comment ... how do you test aptitude for 4-dimensional chess? I have always held the view that ATCOs are born, not made. You either have that sort of weird mental wiring, or you don't - just like aircrew, actually. Its an Art Form - you have it, or you don't, and no amount of teaching will generate it.

And there's one dimension I'll chuck into the room as well ... an upper age limit for ATC trainees, which was 35 when I left. After that age, apart from slower learning, one significant factor was "fear of getting it wrong". The young ones don't think about it at all. The older ones are more conscious of screwing it up, and killing someone remotely from their air-conditioned cavern.

I handled a few like that on Units - a very interesting SATCO/LEO challenge. I had one flt lt who switched from Admin (Sec) to ATC in her 30s. First job was obviously make her O i/c coffee swindle, which highlighted that we had been doing things wrong! And then she got into her OJT programme. Nervous, perfectly capable from my and the Training Team's POV ... but it was hard to convince her she was actually rather good. She made her way through the control positions, on my signature in her F5994. And then ... decision time.

I had a bunch of inherited old (50+) flt lts who were endorsed as Supervisors. Half of them were just seeing out their time to pension, and CBA. So ... "Ahem, *** as of next Monday, you're training for Supervisor"
She screeched!!:eek:
"Sorry, in case you haven't noticed, I run this sqn. You start Sup training on Monday" There then followed a long chat.

A couple of weeks later, with positive reports from OC Trg Flt and everyone else, I endorsed her as Sup(T) ... within 18 months of leaving CATCS, with loads of talent, and a bloody fine officer to boot. I was brave, she was good, and we both took a dive into the deep water together. She was superb. You can either do it, or you can't. She could, excellently! Hope you read this, Liz xxx

ACW418
31st Jan 2014, 20:17
Clicker,

I have been on two separate visits to Swanwick but both were group visits from organisations. There is a visitors lecture room with a viewing gallery looking down on the operating floor. The intro stuff was/is very interesting but looking down on what was happening without really understanding what each position was doing was not hugely interesting.

ACW

Swanwick Mil is just one or two desks on an enormous floor of desks.

Danny42C
31st Jan 2014, 23:05
Geriaviator (your #5060),

Only too true ! Many aircraft accdents result from Pilot Error - often the basic error of not leaving the thing in the hangar and going by train !....D.

Warmtoast (your #5063),

Quoting your: "RAF Thornhill (5FTS), S. Rhodesia as an Air Traffic Control Assistant, probably the lowest form of life in the control tower apart from the tea lady".

Wrong ! - The Tea Lady/Chap takes precedence in Order of Importance (only just) below SATCO.

Your pics positively beg comment:

1. Eagle-eyed steely-jawed young ATC (Tom Cruise ?) stares unafraid at impending air disaster in sky outside, is about to issue masterly order which will save aircraft and all passengers (inc heroine) aboard. Final clinch, curtains, credits roll.

2. That Board !!! Most AFSs had similar ideas, all using very sharp map-pins: I particularly remember the Leeming one, a sort of huge multiple alarm clock with two clocks and a lot of knitting needles inside - you needed a full-time Assistant to work it. But never did I see one the size of that horror of yours !

3. Local Control - what luxury ! (You should have paid them for the privilege of working in a place like that). When I think of life in the freezing, draughty shacks that the RAF stuck on top of the old cubic wartime buildings in those days, I'm green with envy....D.

MPN11 (your #5064),

So that's what they were called ("Akeroyd"), was it ? The Leeming one was supposed to be the brain-child of a F/Sgt, who'd got an award of £250 for the idea. It was about 30 in square, 12 in deep, weighed a ton and sat on a table of its own in Local (anyway, I'm sure you remember it well)......D.

(your #5068),

You're spot on with age 35. After the war MCA were recruiting for ATCs. They advertised for 18 yr old Cadets (and trained them to PPL as part of their Course), and would take ex-pilots and navs (500 hrs min) up to that age.

But the RAF were more generous. I think they would take entrants for SSCs in all Ground Branches (in which they included ATC) up to 39, and curiously I had an experience very similar to yours with a student who must have been nearly that.

Again, it was a lady (name long forgotten), grossly underconfident (I really don't know how she got in in the first place). Anyway she'd been brain-washed at school into the belief that she would always fail at exams: she started at Shawbury with that mindset, and told us so.

"We're on a hiding to nothing here", I thought. But, "I haven't lost a student yet", I told her, "and I'm not going to start with you". Again, the outcome was the same as yours, she was a good average and got through all right. Then she was panicking about how she would get on at her first posting, so I suppose the SATCO (wherever it was) would have to do it all over again....D.

ACW418 and Clicker (your #5066, #5067, #5069),

From West Drayton and Swanwick, Good Lord deliver us.....D.

Regards to all, Danny.

Danny42C
1st Feb 2014, 02:11
The journey down went quite smoothly, the autobahnen were clear and dry. We topped up with coupon petrol at the last German BP tankstelle and crossed into Austria (at Bregenz ?) as dusk was falling. After another 40 miles, we turned off for Gargellen. I stopped at a clearing and put the chains on (of course you had then to drive on another couple of hundred yards, stop again and check to see if you could "take up the slack" and tighten them another link or so).

Passing the police check-point, we started the five-mile climb up the valley (our village was right up at the "vale head" - the end of the road - so there'd be no through traffic). It was surprisingly easy. Dipped beams lit up the snow banks and the surface like daylight. We were on snow now, but the 403 purred on quietly at 20 mph, with the clinking rhythm of the chains and the squashy front Michelin 'X's (normal pressure eighteen psi) giving a perfect grip on their fat paws. I can't remember meeting anything at all coming down the hill; it was a "piece-of-cake".

It wasn't hard to find the "Madrisa", I imagine it was the largest building in Gargellen (then); it took up one side of the little town square, with the onion-domed church opposite. In darkness now, we found the front door and went in to a warm welcome (in every sense). We soon unpacked, I took the car round to the car park at the back. We fed, bathed and settled down Mary (now two years old), had a good meal and retired thankfully for the night.

The hotel was in two parts - the old original wooden building facing the square (we had a balcony room), and a much larger newer extension behind. Dinner had been enjoyable. Gargellen is a very low resort (less than 5,000 ft); the snow had been patchy, a day or so the previous week it had actually rained . Prospects looked poor. But our arrival had brought good fortune - during the night there was a six-inch dump of snow on the balcony rail. Breakfast (in bright sunshine) had been cheerful.

The little church was packed to bursting, which was just as well as it was absolutely freezing. After Mass, we came back to our room. Bent on a siesta to round off lunch, we were busily engaged in settling Mary down for her sleep, but hadn't heard the village band assembling on the long balcony outside the room. The moment she at last dropped off, they let rip with a rousing selection of Tyrolean tunes. They played for another half-hour, then we could all have our afternoon snooze.

But very first thing that morning, I'd met Snag No.1. It seems that in Austria then there were two separate domestic electricity supplies - AC and DC (but both 220v). The old part where we were was on DC, but the new building AC. My razor was dual-voltage, but only AC. So in order to get a shave, I'd had to go down into the new hotel hall, where the only available point was in the telephone kiosk. It was a minor annoyance: we had little else to complain about.

(Perhaps I should mention at this stage that DC was in common use in older properties in the UK until well after the war; most elecrical devices in those days had to be "AC/DC").

Of course, there was no ski school on the Sabbath (although I think the ski lifts were working). Now what lifts they had then, I find it hard to remember. There would certainly be T-bars for the nursery slopes, and I know there was a chair-lift for the higher ones, and the was a gondola lift for the summit. I believe it is now possible to link runs over the top with the high Klosters snow fields, but I don't think you could do it in our day.

(Klosters [Switzerland] is only 10 miles away as the crow flies, but, IIRC, about 80 miles by road, as you have to go right down to the bottom of one valley and up the next).

Although it was obvious that the hotel catered mainly for family groups, it was rare to see pre-ski age toddlers and I don't think the hotel had a crèche. Mrs D. had elected not to ski, but to enjoy the time with Mary, watching me risking life and limb on the mountain. I probably collected skis, poles and Lift pass on the Sunday afternoon (which can't have taken long, for we'd our own kit and boots). The day continued fine, the forecast was good. We should see what the morrow would bring.

This will have to run into Part III now.

Goodnight, everbody,

Danny42C.


Let it snow !

clicker
1st Feb 2014, 03:04
Another memory brought back by Danny, I recall going to Scotland a few years ago and a visit to a little island called Easdale, south of Oban, to see a friend that was working there for the summer. Lovely place but so small you can walked round the shore line in 20 minutes.

As they had no rooms I had gone to the internet "Hotels within 20 miles" it said and one was to the south of Oban. Good I thought, it will be near where Vicky is, I thought.

So visit over, jump in car, switch on satnav. Shortest distance 85 miles said satnav. No can't be right I thought. But it was, needed to drive around a couple of Loch's.

That said it was a lovely 2 1/2 hour drive through some of the best scenery I had seen for ages. Well worth my flight plan error.

clicker
1st Feb 2014, 03:23
Thanks ACW418,

I might just try an email to them and see what happens.

I thought it might be like you said based on photos I've seen from that balcony although it would be much better on the shop floor but I suppose security and all that put pay to such idea's after 9/11 and 7/7.

I've made a few to other centre's in the past even back to the days when West Drayton (Civil) had the radar's remotely in Sopley if my memory serves me correctly. Then a few years later back there with a visit to Eastern Radar after they had moved there from Watton. I found them all interesting as it helped fill in the gaps from what I knew from my monitoring. Now want to see how the centre previously known as Scottish Mil has slotted in.

Danny,

its not that bad at a centre, I mean it's given us MPN11 for a start. :ok:

I wonder, and more than possible that I've heard MPN11 on Eastern Radar back in the 80's, quite likely as did a lot of monitoring around that time. Still do at times.

Chugalug2
1st Feb 2014, 10:27
I too once visited West Drayton, including the RAF Mil cell there. Pride of place I seem to remember was a large vertical map of the UK on which auto triangulation beams would pin point an aircraft transmitting on the distress freq (243 Mhz by then I guess). I've often wondered under whose control they operated, Obviously they had their own internal CoC (up to Wg Cdr?) but did they then come under NATS operational control, or were they answerable operationally to the RAF? If so who, an AOC? I know, I should have asked!


As ever, you paint the scene superbly Danny, both in time and place. Electricity in the UK was a jumble of non compatible plugs back then, even if you were on AC. 15 and 5 Amp plugs, as well as special ones for razors, clocks, lights etc. My mother used to subvert the whole process by plugging her iron into a "Y" shaped lighting outlet attached to the ceiling pendant that also fed a light bulb. That I am still here to tell the tale is surely down to pure providence.


It is a measure of your attraction to the engineering state of the art that you boasted an electric razor of any sort. Shaving by safety razor, soap, and brush was still the default then and not the retro style fashion that it is today.


Good luck on the slopes, and please don't do anything silly, will you?

clicker
1st Feb 2014, 10:41
Chugalug2

Did you notice the sign above the door at D&D?

It was a "Double Diamond" sign presume "on loan" from a pub somewhere.

Seem to recall that they cover both 243.0 and 121.5.

Last time I saw their set up they also had the beams come up on some smaller displays zoomed into the beams crossover with a chart underneath in order to locate nearest town/airfield.

Also can say I've used their services, albeit as a practise PAN when I was in a Cessna 150 with a guy from Transamerica ops who later I believe ended up a fleet captain with KLM on B747's. Did an "unsure of location" call with a divert to the nearest airfield which was Lydd and our intended. Evene better was the return. We had arranged with Gatwick for an approach and overshoot if traffic was quite. It was and we got sandwiched in between two Air Europe B737's, although we didn't do the full approach, joined at 2 or 3 miles if I remember correctly. Would loved to have seen the spotters faces as they watched from the roof of the terminal.

Chugalug2
1st Feb 2014, 13:33
Can't say I do,clicker, but very appropriate! In the old days they would have probably got fitted out with the pumps as well for a TGIF. Unthinkable and to be greatly deprecated now of course! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif


For some reason I think that the map display only worked on 121.5 and that 243 fixes were achieved by some other means, but memory as ever is vague.


Ah yes, that very first Practice Pan. One felt as nervous as if one were addressing the nation, and you had to practice the Practice well beforehand so that the script flowed rather than be punctuated with ...pauses and ...er's.

MPN11
1st Feb 2014, 16:59
D&D had auto-triangulation on both frequencies.

ricardian
1st Feb 2014, 17:06
I went round West Drayton in the early 1970s. The big wall map was fed by CADFs around the country, any distress call produced lines of bearing; the ops clerks/ATC clerks marked the intersection with a couple of "light pistols" which shone a beam of light onto the map to mark the intersection. Old technology but seemed to work.

Danny42C
2nd Feb 2014, 02:30
Another delighful case of "one good memory deserves another" (which is, of course, the "raison d'être" of this Thread).

clicker,

"I'll tak' the high road and ye tak' the low road, and I'll be in Scotland afore ye " (or, in this case, Easdale ! Hope it was worth the trip).

Apart from the loss of your blue skies, fluffy white clouds and aeroplanes to watch, and having to spend all your days chained to a tube "in durance vile" in some dark dungeon from which you rarely emerged, blinking, into the light of day, and under the scrutiny (like polar bears in a pit) of visitors (as it now seems) on a balcony, it can't have been too bad. (Admittedly, the fact that Area Radar gave the Thread MPN11 [or was it the other way round ?] is to be applauded) ...... But West Drayton was in London (all right, Middlesex).

As no serviceman under star rank (with family) could afford to live in/near London those days (is it any better now ?), West Drayton was a no-no for most people in the Branch, and I was always glad to have avoided it. Is Swanwick (Hampshire) any better ?

Why not put it somewhere in the Midlands or North ? (there is human habitation North of Watford, after all). Don't all the inputs come in by landline or microwave link ? so it could be anywhere in the UK (or is there something I've missed ?)

End of rant...D.

Chugalug,

We've missed you on here and were starting to get worried. Welcome back !

You may be interested to know that one of the "Y" adaptors you recall from your boyhood is alive and well, and is functioning in our garage as I write (I have the input to the trickle charger wired up with a bayonet plug to the side outlet). IIRC, your Mother would have had a pull switch on hers, too, so she could switch out the light, but still keep ironing.

The snag in the arrangement was the wattage of the iron, which usually blew the 5A fusewire in the box. But hey, what's the problem ? Stick in 15A wire ! As this was long before PVC insulation and metal sheathing, and I think they had rubber (perishable) insulation and silk sheathing in the old "spider wiring", electrical fires were by no means uncommon.

Well do I remember the old round pins in the 5A and 15A 2-pin and 3-pin plugs. When you only had a 3-pin plug for a 2-pin socket, you dismantled the plug, took out the two pins and pushed them (with no insulation at all !) :eek: into the socket (it was a good idea to make sure the socket was "dead" before you started, and to instruct the family to keep their fingers off afterwards :{).

Even more perilous "short cuts" (no pun intended) were common practice as an alternative to that method. When you wanted to connect something up, but didn't have a plug to fit, you simply fed the bare wire ends :sad: into the holes in the socket (for the round-pin plugs had no "shields", such as are actuated by the flat earth pin in modern plugs *). To secure them, you twisted a bit of paper as a wedge, or used matchsticks. You need to connect two cables ? Twist the bare ends together, insulate with the black, tarry, insulating tape in universal use then. It'll last for years !

Note * : (You can defeat that too. := Poke a pencil point into the socket earth, push down and back to open the "shields", proceed as before. And the shields will spring back and trap the insulated part of the flex, so you don't need a matchstick).

It will be no surprise to learn that the prudent householder always kept a card of fuse wires and a small screwdriver in the fusebox (as I do myself to this day), and a torch nearby. Your parents' generation lived dangerously even before the war !

Electric razors were on the market in Southport as early as '46. I bought one, it was of the reciprocating blade variety, it cost me two guineas, it was useless (but the little pigskin pouch was nice). Since then, I've had one or two of the same kind (a Braun was good), but finally settled on the rotating blade Philips. Won't change now.

Re: The First Practice Pan ("unaccustomed as I am to Public Speaking") recalls a similar situation (Don't remember where) with the Tannoy. This has mikes in ATC, SHQ ? - and the Guardroom. Here a Tannoy had to go out urgently, the Corporal was busy on the phone. The slip of paper was handed to an airman (defaulter ?) close by. "Put this out !"

He cleared his throat, nervously keyed the mike and quavered: "Stand By for Broadcast"...(deathly pause)..."What the f#ck do I say now !"... (which brought the house down all round the Station)

No need to worry, D. and family will come back from the snow sound in wind and limb (if somewhat lighter in the wallet)....D

ricardian,

To put it another way, it's because it works that it gets to be old technology ! . ....D.

G'night all, Danny.

ancientaviator62
2nd Feb 2014, 08:11
Danny,
when I was a 'techie' the matchstick in the socket trick was known as the Bryant and May connection for obvious reasons.

Warmtoast
2nd Feb 2014, 10:47
Danny42C

The snag in the arrangement was the wattage of the iron, which usually blew the 5A fusewire in the box. But hey, what's the problem ? Stick in 15A wire !

...and in the absence of fuse wire a strip of silver paper from a cigarette packet worked OK - although to be fair it wouldn't blow at much under 350Amps! - but it worked occasionally and the house hasn't burnt down yet!

mmitch
2nd Feb 2014, 11:07
In Sainsburys this week they had 3 pin 13 amp fused plugs but not replacement fuses? I still have a card of fuse wire for old times sake.
mmitch.

ricardian
2nd Feb 2014, 11:46
At RAF Driffield circa 1962 there was a big enquiry after it was discovered that the main 100 amp fuse for an accommodation block had been replaced by a finely fettled fire bucket handle

Gulfstreamaviator
2nd Feb 2014, 13:08
silver foil was my ultimate back up....from cig packet, or kitchen who cares.


glf

clicker
2nd Feb 2014, 14:47
Often used the dead fuse to hold a strand of wire wedged between the fuse and the contact (often via a Bryant and May tool kit).

MPN11
2nd Feb 2014, 17:07
Too complicated. I don't even understand why the volts don't dribble out of the holes and onto the floor :eek:

Danny42C
2nd Feb 2014, 20:42
We seem to have aroused quite a response to the tale of the many electrical misdemeanours common in days of yore ! And thank you all for not taking me to task for my stupid typo ("delighful" - reminds be of the "deadful" we had a while back. Fixed, now).

ancientaviator62, Warmtoast, mmitch, ricardian, Gulfstreamaviator and clicker,

Thanks for the various additions you made to the main theme. I hadn't heard of the "Bryant & May" name for the idea before (as a pipe smoker, found "Swan" burned a bit longer), but then you learn something new every day. A Fire Bucket handle (fettled) does sound a bit extreme; the worst I heard of was the six-inch nail- across-the-fusebox solution to running (strictly prohibited) electric fires in the huts to augment the output of the coke stove (particularly if you were at the far end !).

The silver paper and (the later and better) kitchen foil is the solution to many problems. There may yet be one or two folk who still do not know that the Achilles Heel of many AAA and AA powered devices (notably remote controls) is the little tensioning coil spring at the base, which weakens. A rolled up scrap of foil (the size of a pea) often works wonders.

I note from some of the replies that the domestic fuse is assumed to be of cartridge-type. But earlier yet, you just had a bit of ceramic with a tiny hole at each end through which you threaded your fusewire, then clamped each end round a screw. All was in a two-prong carrier which you plugged back into the box.

This was by no means easy, if your only light source was a burning match. But surely these are things of the past ? Not so ! (I can assure you).

MPN11,

They did ! Unfortunately there was sometimes a human body interposed (if the floor was anything of an "earth"), with a possible fatal outcome. :rolleyes:

Cheers, Danny.

cockney steve
2nd Feb 2014, 22:02
keyed the mike and quavered: "Stand By for Broadcast"...(deathly pause)..."What the f#ck do I say now !"

That, as we say up here, ia an absolute dumer (or doomer):}

I,m still chuckling about it now! -Thanks for that one Danny.

I, m still using a Wylex consumer unit with rewirable carriers,-bought/aquired spares, so if one pops, just swap!...little coloured dots on them to denote the amperage they're supposed to be wired for...red, 30A blue 15A, white 5A.

have found odd lengths of lead-sheathed ,during renovations....conductors rubber covered and then woven-cotton sheathed...would cost a fortune to make today, which is probably why you only got 1 socket in a room (every one went back to it's own fuse on the fuseboard )

In my youth, I quickly established a superior technique to the B&M connection....one bared the "Tails" and if twisted, untwisted and fanned-out slightly and bent to 90*....poke flattened tails in appropriate holes, then shove in a plug for a switched item.....connection made, plug covered the bare bits2 items off one feed without a double adapter or second plug.:)
keep the tales coming, gents, As a civilian, i find them fascinating..

as an aside, in my teens I had a good friend who had done NS around 1953...he became a tank-driver and served in Germany...Apparently, the locals referred to them as "the children's army"....anyhow, he delighted in recounting how they would wait untol crops were well-developed, then drive full -tilt across them, thus destroying the poor farmer's efforts.....apparently the military did compensate them, but he didn't know or care if it covered the damage.

those were, indeed, the days.

Danny42C
2nd Feb 2014, 23:02
cockney steve,

Ba goom, you're a bit far from home (I'm a Lancashire Lad myself - Liverpool, Wirral, Southport, School at Blackpool), but haven't been back for donkey's years.

Another Tannoy story: it falls to the lot of the ATC to give out the good news when a Night Flying programme is cancelled (usually on account of weather). I always liked to do it myself, for the sake of the great roar of relief and jubilation which erupted all round the Flights when I gave tongue on the Tannoy.

So it's called a Wylex unit (sounds exactly like mine). Nice thing is, you can pull out the fuse carrier for the circuit you're working on and put it in your pocket - then you're perfectly safe !

Your mod on the B&M system sounds much safer, I agree. What you describe is "spider wiring", I think. In my place (built '72) they have it for the lights only, the room power sockets are on two ring mains.

Don't like your tank chappie much. I never felt any resentment from the Germans from '60 to '62, and in return we treated them courteously. After all, they'd had to obey orders just as we had. As Kipling put it:

I do not love my country's foes
Nor call 'em 'eroes. Still -
Where is the sense in 'ating those
'Oom you are paid to kill ?

Of course , things might have been different in '53, and it was a NS lad speaking, and you know what we were all like at that age. He wouldn't have done it off his own bat. Perhaps it was in the course of some exercise, but even so I don't think the planners would have staged it over ripe crops.
Perhaps I'm wrong.

Glad you like the Thread, Cheers, Danny.

Reader123
3rd Feb 2014, 10:57
Gentlemen. Please replace those fuses with Wylex plug-in breakers like these.


Toolstation > Electrical > Wylex Consumer Units > Wylex Plug in Breaker B Type (http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Wylex+Plug+in+Breaker+B+Type/p38609)


It's a two-minute job to swap them over. You can still put them in your pocket for safety's sake too.

DHfan
3rd Feb 2014, 16:31
I changed ours to the trip type a few years ago when a tame electrician friend gave us a set but there's still a card of fuse wire tucked behind the tails.
The only drawback is every time a bulb blows the lighting circuit trips. A minor inconvenience but the consumer unit's above a doorway which is fine for 6'1" of me but not so good for my 5'3" lady.

MPN11
3rd Feb 2014, 17:51
The only drawback is every time a bulb blows the lighting circuit trips.

Yup, did that an hour or two ago, just as we'd sat down to eat.


Meanwhile ... is this 'PPRuNE' or "Electricians Are Us"??? :confused: ;)

BEagle
3rd Feb 2014, 18:49
Danny42C wrote:I note from some of the replies that the domestic fuse is assumed to be of cartridge-type. But earlier yet, you just had a bit of ceramic with a tiny hole at each end through which you threaded your fusewire, then clamped each end round a screw. All was in a two-prong carrier which you plugged back into the box.

This was by no means easy, if your only light source was a burning match. But surely these are things of the past ? Not so ! (I can assure you

Yes, I had to do this just this a few days ago. A light bulb blew upstairs (well, it had been there since 1984...), taking out the circuit fuse as well.

I managed to find a card of fuse wire in a local shop, but when I was paying for it, the assistant said "Oh, we've got some fuse wire in have we? Haven't had that for over a year now....."....:\

My worst offence regarding wiring was during the early days of 'square pin' plugs. Strip the red and black (as they were then) wires back to the copper, twist into a suitable shape to shove into the socket. Switch off the supply, poke the back of a teaspoon into the earth hole and push it down until the other 2 holes opened, then insert the wires. Carefully remove the teaspoon to trap the wires, wiggle them gently to check they've been trapped. Stand clear and switch the power back on.....

If there were no sparks, fire or fuses blown, I would count myself lucky! But when funds allowed, I'd buy a proper plug.

Do those Wylex devices fit inside a 'conventional' fuse box? They also seem quite expensive, when compared to the cost of a card of fuse wire...

Regarding dual voltage and AC/DC, when my late father lived in Menorca we had different voltages in the same room! I think that part was on something weird such as 127v AC and the rest was on 220v AC....:eek:

ACW418
3rd Feb 2014, 20:23
Beags,

Having fitted the replacement circuit breakers in my house and garage my experience was that I was not able to refit the covers on the Fuse Boxes as the breakers are taller. Still worth it though. However, Screwyou are selling new modern consumer units with all the trimmings for about the same as a set of plug in breakers. Just done that and to be recommended as the new unit provides a lot more safety.

ACW

clicker
3rd Feb 2014, 21:43
Don't worry BEagle, I've done that as well in my youth and I'm sure many others have as well.

Also I'll bet that because people were buying electrical goods and forgetting the plugs, they did this thereby causing many a fire and in turn that turned into law that all electrical goods must be fitted with a plug when sold.

Nervous SLF
3rd Feb 2014, 21:54
Sorry to intrude but when wiring up a 13 amp plug don't forget to dab a touch of solder on the tips of the bare wires to stop
stray strands which in time might well cause a short inside the plug.All of our teleprinter equipment came without any plugs
fitted we had to do it ourselves.

ricardian
3rd Feb 2014, 22:33
When working at AM London commcen in the 1960s I was in trouble when I moved the plug of a piece of equipment to another socket. Trouble was that all the kit was 3 pin round BUT some sockets were 240V AC mains and some sockets were 80-0-80V DC with no indication as to which was which. Good old Post Office technicians. I got away with it on Health & Safety grounds. Shortly after all plugs & sockets were changed to square pin 240V AC or round pin 80-0-80V DC round pin

Geriaviator
4th Feb 2014, 15:43
My dear old Dad (Halton intake 1936) told me that rings were banned on some stations as they could cause severe injury if they snagged on something. The worst case he knew was the corporal who was fitting new batteries into a trolley-acc (this ancient device comprised two or four high-capacity batteries in a two-wheeled trolley) when he bridged the output cables with his ring finger. All the current needed to turn a mighty Merlin surged through the ring, which turned to literally liquid gold. The luckless corporal lost his finger and received a rollicking for disobeying SSOs.

Ripline
4th Feb 2014, 16:37
Yes, easy to snag a ring when working, but they are also a hazard when working in any RF intense area as it makes very effective single-turn step-down transformer. The induced current from transmitter sets, particularly at microwave frequencies, is one reason that I stopped wearing mine in the lab. On Open Days in the 60's my Eccentric Leader used to demonstrate how to cook a sausage on a set of Lecker bars fed by a carcinatron........

Ripline

Danny42C
4th Feb 2014, 18:22
Reader123,

Thanks for a really useful bit of 'gen'. Even at £8.67 (is that VAT-inc ?) it could be worth it, if you consider the hassle of the old way for those whose fingers are not as nimble as once they were !....D.

DHfan,

I'm no electrician, but I think that used to happen because the loose end of the broken filament fell back on the other pole and shorted out the circuit (but in my cases, these were bulbs wired to 3-pin plugs so only the plug fuse blew). Now we've got these (supposedly) everlasting low-wattage bulbs, I've had one or two die on me, but it hasn't happened - yet ! Why, oh why, didn't I lay in a big stock of these when you could pick them up for pennies ?

Your.... "but there's still a card of fuse wire tucked behind the tails".... (Belt'n Braces was always good policy !).....D.

MPN11,

Our wise Moderators (bless them) seem endlessly patient with us, realising that old soldiers like to natter (and, let's face it, anyone who got his Brevet in WWII is that by definition). But we always drift back (more or less) to the Thread, and Tomorrow is Also a Day.

Your: "Yup, did that an hour or two ago, just as we'd sat down to eat". Another demonstration of Sod's Law !...D.

BEagle,

My little card of fusewire must go back at least 20 years, but there is still plenty left. I can well believe that it may be difficult to find another today.

Your teaspoon handle (ex bike tyre lever ?) variant of the pencil point idea may have lessened the need for pencil sharpening, but I was always nervous about any uninsulated metal tool anywhere near the sparks - even though the earth hole should be harmless, you never know !

I would say that they'd certainly fit in a Wylex box, not sure about other makes.

127/220v might well cause problems unless you had different sockets or they were in different rooms (as was the case in the "Madrisa"). Or if, of course, you had a dual-voltage razor (as they mostly are now....D.

ACW418

Your: "Just done that and to be recommended as the new unit provides a lot more safety". Not if it was a DIY job ! (I'd get in a professional electrician !) ....D.

clicker and NervousSLF,

I've long believed that no child should leave school without demonstrating the ability to wire a plug, mend a fuse and washer a tap...D.

Geriaviator,

A sad story indeed. Another sad one (true). One of our WRAF Assistants at Leeming had, as a girl, been playing Hide and Seek. She'd shinned up a tree close to a park railings, and jumped (or fell) from a low branch. On one finger she had a loose ring, the hand brushed the spike on the railings, it caught the ring, the top two joints were torn off her finger...D.

Good Evening all, Danny.

Union Jack
4th Feb 2014, 23:22
On one finger she had a loose ring, the hand brushed the spike on the railings, it caught the ring, the top two joints were torn off her finger....

Which is precisely why sailors are discouraged from wearing rings whilst on board ship, for it's all too easy to slip, say, on a ladder between decks with a similar result to the unfortunate case above.

Jack

PS Well, it couldn't possibly be because some sailors are "geographical bachelors" - could it?:E

Reader123
5th Feb 2014, 11:16
Sorry to intrude but when wiring up a 13 amp plug don't forget to dab a touch of solder on the tips of the bare wires to stop
stray strands which in time might well cause a short inside the plug.All of our teleprinter equipment came without any plugs
fitted we had to do it ourselves.
No actually you shouldn't... Copper wires are made of copper as it's an excellent conductor. Solder is made of lead and tin which doesn't conduct as well.
Therefore, if you buy something which has had the ends of the wires soldered - good old days, before sealed plugs were attached to everything - which they did in order to test it in the factory, you should cut off the soldered ends, and put the bare wires (suitably twisted) into the plug.


No, Danny, the breakers do not fit into the Wylex boxes, you'll have to leave the front off. Much safer than a fuse though, so worth the aesthetic issues.


And changing your own fusebox ('consumer unit') is illegal these days (unless you have it approved by the council's building regs department). Lucky they didn't have regs like this when they sent boys up in the air in the 1940s with no guarantee of ever finding their home station again. It's a wonder to me that any aeroplane ever managed to find its way home again.

DHfan
5th Feb 2014, 16:01
As you'll probably need to fumble around in the dark to reset the trip no front's an advantage anyway.

Our local independent electrical shop usually has secondhand plug-in breakers for a couple of quid each which goes to charity.

I know the theory of the dead filament sorting out and blowing the trip but unless it defies gravity it shouldn't happen with a pendant bulb - and it happens every time without fail. Reset the trip and it's fine, although locally dark!

I did stock up on some low energy ones when Morrisons had a crate full of 60W and 75W equivalents for 10p apiece. I've still got 5 or 6 of each left.

MPN11
5th Feb 2014, 19:02
One purchases torches/flashlights to navigate a darkened house. Pound/Dollar shops have some very good LED ones these days :cool:

Danny42C
5th Feb 2014, 21:45
Reader123,

Your: "It's a wonder to me that any aeroplane ever managed to find its way home again" . Boys in the '50s weren't always much good at it either - read Post #3742 p.188 !....D.

DHfan,

Your: "I did stock up on some low energy ones when Morrisons had a crate full of 60W and 75W equivalents for 10p apiece. I've still got 5 or 6 of each left". You were robbed ! Tesco up here were selling 100Ws at 1p (!) for a week or two, (And IIRC, there was a free issue of a dozen to every household in the land to start with)...D.

MPN11,

One buys the torches all right. Trouble is: one forgets where one has put them when everything goes black !....D.

Early night tonight. Cheers, Danny.

DHfan
5th Feb 2014, 23:07
Re forgetting where torches are, me too. Or ferreting around in the cupboard where I'm sure I put it/them last time...

Fumbling around in the dark's easier. I know where the consumer unit is - it's screwed to the wall.

Nervous SLF
5th Feb 2014, 23:53
How interesting about the plugs, funny how British Telecom not only taught everyone to do that but they made it
a must do requirement. Ah well Reader 123 one British Telecom nil. ( Not really )

Sorry to thread drift but I had to answer.

HTB
6th Feb 2014, 06:06
MPN11

How much do they cost...?

Mister B

teeteringhead
6th Feb 2014, 08:18
On one finger she had a loose ring, the hand brushed the spike on the railings, it caught the ring, the top two joints were torn off her finger....

.... and one Neil Armstrong, having safely walked on the Moon, "de-gloved" :eek: a be-ringed finger ..... falling off the wing of a Cessna.............

MPN11
6th Feb 2014, 10:44
HTB ... A coupe of quid? Mine are something like this >>> HQ 9 LED Ultra Bright Aluminium Torch, Black: Amazon.co.uk: Lighting

(Bought ours in T K Maxx in the USA, IIRC. Kept in bedside drawers and places like that, and at least one always taken on holiday.)


Have we deviated from the Thread Title and the old days of the RAF enough now? :ugh:

ancientaviator62
6th Feb 2014, 11:57
MPN11,
chide not ! If the letter of the law were to be applied to the title of this great thread then we would all have been deprived of your most interesting input as well as many others. I am sure Danny will give a steer to get us all back on track when he judges the time is right.

Blacksheep
6th Feb 2014, 12:43
When I had the privilege of rewiring PA474 the Plessey Plugs on the original perished wiring were all solder connections. I asked my "Chiefy", Ralph how they did soldering out on a far dispersal. He said they used an ordinary old fashioned soldering iron and a blowlamp. Heat the iron red hot, then climb aboard and solder away. Anyone familiar with clambering into a Lancaster and up to the main electrical panel in the Flight Deck, can imagine the hazards of doing this while bearing a red hot soldering iron in one hand. :eek:

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Brass-Blow-Lamp-with-Old-Fashioned-Soldering-Iron-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$T2eC16ZHJHYE9nzpebuMBQ(t5ZM3(g~~60_35.JPG

HTB
6th Feb 2014, 13:43
MPN11

Oops. Irony filter and subtlety fuse seem to have blown - I only asked because you mentioned, wait for it, pound shop, where (so I'm led to believe) evey article costs...well, a pound:ok:

Mister B

Feeling mischievous again, the chemo must be wearing off.

MPN11
6th Feb 2014, 16:09
Sorry for being in "Victor Meldrew" mode. :cool:


Now, where's Danny's next exploit? He must have written it by now, industrious person that he is!! :D

Danny42C
6th Feb 2014, 22:22
MPN11 ,

Your wish is my command, Sir !....D.

Monday at 1000, Ski School started. We kitted-up and assembled on the nursery slopes right outside the hotel. Under the scrutiny of the eagle-eyed Chief Instructor and his giant Alsatian, the beginners were hived-off in a bunch and led away; the rest of us were put on a slope and invited to show what we could do. This quick and efficient form of self-selection soon divided people into the appropriate classes. I suppose this method is used everywhere.

Mrs D, Mary and toboggan found a nice little spot close to the lower slope. There, they could play with the toboggan in the snow, and watch Daddy doing his stuff. Near by, there was a ski lodge where we had hot chocolate to keep us warm. In the first few days there would be the amusing spectacle of the beginners' class learning the kick-turn, and coming to grips with the "T"- bar for the first time. And there was a small hump of a hill fairly close to the nursery slopes, and on it they'd set up a slalom course for the intermediates (at the end of their second week). We weren't very good at it - the slalom poles were flying about like matchsticks.

Ski instruction must be much the same the world over; my previous times on the snow were helpful - but it had been eight years before. As I said, the "Kandahar" cable binding was still in use; the only difference was that the ski now had metal edges. And they were still the long, narrow planks which had been in use since time began. The accepted way then of measuring you for your ski was for you to reach as high as you could with shoulders level - then the ski should just touch your palm with level hand. Trying it now, I reach the height of an internal house door (say 78in, or 2m).

The longer your ski, the harder it is to learn how to control it. Generations of beginners have suffered needlessly, until around '65 the French came up with the idea of the ski evolutiv. Here you start with two broad ski about a metre long, so in no time at all you're parallel-skiing with the best of them. Then they swap them for 1.5 m, you get confident with that, and then up to whatever you feel comfortable with. And then the snowboard came in, effectively this is a double width 1m ski evolutiv: it was not greeted with open arms (at least by skiers) at first, but they seem to have got used to it.

Why were our ski so long before? I can only hazard a completely uninformed guess: in glacier skiing, you may run over a 50ft deep crevasse invisible under its snow "bridge". * The longer your ski, the safer ! It had become a traditional thing. And when would a Ski School have you on snow that might have "no visible means of support" ?

This was to be the last time I was on snow on skis, although a decade or so later, Mary and I tried a small artificial ** slope that the Army had built at Catterick. Effectively, you were on a sort of giant carpet of nylon bristles, which were very uncomfortable to fall on and nothing at all like snow. And there was no lift, so you had to herring-bone or sidestep up each time, and that was exhausting. It wasn't worth the trouble.

One day we put "skins" on the ski, took the cables out of the side clips, unfastened the heel safety-strap and followed our instructor into the wooded trails for a bit of "lang-lauf" The downhill parts were fine, the skins acting as a partial brake (and in any case the dips were gentle, as most mountain tracks obviouly traverse the slope). But going up was hard work indeed: soon we were puffing and blowing in shirt-sleeve order. No doubt it did us no end of good, but generally I preferred to get to the top of a run by lift - and after that let gravity do the work !

Our instructor had a small white dog of indeterminate parentage, which he carried up the mountain across his shoulders. Hearing his master calling him "Weissman" ("Whitey") - as I thought - I showed off my German with a feeble joke: "Noch nicht Omo-weiss !" ("Not quite Omo-white", as the animal was scruffy - and, shall we say, stood out against the snow). But this didn't go down at all well, for it seemed that the name was actually "Weitman" - ("Ranger"). I resolved to keep my jokes to myself in future.

(I hope this qualifies as Getting Back Somewhere Near the Thread, as I appear to be the last specimen in Prune captivity of a "Gainer").

Enough is as good as a Feast, more next time.

G'night folks, Danny42C.


What goes Up, Must come Down (one way or another !).

EDIT: Note * Ice corpses (sometimes hundred of years old, but perfectly preserved) turn up regularly at glacier "tails", having met their end in this way.

Note ** Curiously, there is artificial ice (for skating), too. I tried it once - about 40 years ago - it was terrible, I never thought to hear of it again - until now. Casually checking with Google, it seems that the stuff (or something like it) is alive and well in the US.

I quote from their "puff": "As EZ Glide 350 becomes scratched from normal skating use, skating speed increases. The surface performs better the more you use it!" (this is not only contra-intuitive - it's an affront to right reason !) And it works out at about $10/sq.ft., so a rink is not cheap, but then neither is an ice one.

D.

ancientaviator62
7th Feb 2014, 08:01
Danny,
I have just obtained a copy of 'Aircraft of the Fighting Powers' from a well known internet auction site. The Vultee Vengeance features in it. The spec. quotes a range of 1200 miles. Was this achievable in fact ? Or like modern MPG figures was that manufacturers 'puff' ?

Danny42C
7th Feb 2014, 18:58
ancientaviator62,

After some headscratching, and combining reference to my authority - "Vengeance" (Peter C.Smith) - with what I remember, the facts are as follows (Mks. I-III [A31], and I don't think Mk.IV [A35] varied).

Normal tankage 220 US gallons (183 Imp) - PCS says 200 (Imp) - best we ever did was 60 galls/hr (Imp) in cruise at 160 mph ~ 490 miles.

PCS makes oblique reference to "400 galls full tanks". What can he possibly mean ? Never saw or heard of any external tank: why would we want one ? (apart from an old story about a DIY attempt sometime in the past - the things created so much drag that you got no further with them on than you did before). And there was no "spare" internal tankage !

1200 miles ? In your dreams ! Danny.

Chugalug2
7th Feb 2014, 19:41
1200 miles? Sir should consider the A-35B Vengeance; max speed 230mph, normal range 2,300 miles!


I can see that Sir is looking a little askance, but I can assure him that these figures appear in 'Combat Aircraft of World War Two' and can further assure him that these are the figures in the Vultee brochure itself! So perhaps upon reconsideration Sir would like to have a test flight? With that mighty 1700hp Wright R-2600-13 roaring away in front, Sir will realise what a tremendous improvement this model is on previous ones! Did Sir have any particular colour scheme in mind?

smujsmith
7th Feb 2014, 20:03
Danny,

Interesting that your experience confirms the aircraft endurance was less than published. A slight aside if I may. When the RAF equipped some of its C130s with its IRCM (Infra Red Counter Measures) fit AN/ALQ 157 from memory, it was fitted in a modified recess above and behind the main landing gear. Being a "pooled" aircraft, the modified aircraft were often used for standard route flying as well, when the IRCM heads were removed (they were at the time regarded as classified equipment). I remember chatting to a Nav one day, and asking why he was calling for "funny" fuel loads, who explained to me that an IRCM equipped aircraft! with heads removed had a fuel burn of around 2% more than either an unmodified aircraft, or one modified with the heads fitted. It appears no one took account of the drag created by the modified recess in the fuselage with head removed. As you can imagine, on a 12 hour pond crossing, 2% was a decent amount of fuel. Also, unlike any additional profile drag like slipper tanks, this penalty was a result of removing material. Albert, possibly like the Vengeance was never, really an aerodynamic sliver of an aircraft.

Smudge :ok:

Danny42C
7th Feb 2014, 21:06
Chugalug,

Dreams ? Now Sir is having nightmares (14 hours in a VV :eek:!) Were these for real (any photos of them in the metal ?) Never 'eard of 'em ! And your quote:

"I can see that Sir is looking a little askance, but I can assure him that these figures appear in 'Combat Aircraft of World War Two' and can further assure him that these are the figures in the Vultee brochure itself".

Sir distinctly remembers a Vultee brochure, on the cover of which a VV was illustrated rocketting off from an aircraft carrier. It caused much hilarity at the time (as you'd need at least three carriers coupled nose-to-tail to have any hope of flying !)

At 3 ampg, an extra 1900 miles would need 633 gallons - say 7,000 lbs. Another 100 hp might make it taxi a bit faster, but it'd never fly (they tried it with 4x500 lb bombs, but even that was dangerously marginal). "Combat Aircraft" was having it pulled and no mistake ! ....D.

Smudge,

Yes, there would need to be more fuel still to carry the 7,000 lbs 2300 miles. I believe that if you need 5 tonnes more on arrival at JHK, you have to load 6 at LHR before you start.....D.

Danny.

Chugalug2
7th Feb 2014, 22:26
No need for nightmares Danny. These are clearly nonsense numbers, in the case of those quoted in my post I suspect a typo. Having entered 230 once, it was merely entered again with an additional 0. The RAF PNs for the stay at home Mk4 echo your point, albeit with slightly more tankage, 5/600 miles tops. I shall of course write an angry letter to the publishers of CAoWW2!
A-35 Vengeance (http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/en/aircraft/usa/vultee/a-35vengeance.html)

aa2, I was once the proud possessor of three volumes of the excellent Aircraft of the Fighting Powers, each type having a foldout (for the larger types) three view scale (1/72?) drawing. It is a wonder that such lavish publishing was allowed in WW2, given the restrictions placed on most book production then. Of course everyone was an expert anyway, and could tell you what was flying past merely by the sound from its engines (and who was to tell them they were wrong?).


Was it not a Charles Gibbs Smith who produced many aircraft recognition manuals, introducing the concept of the silhouette drawing so beloved of the Observers Books? There was obviously a market for honing such skills, but I doubt if they could be much applied in any official manner outside of the Forces and the Observer Corps. Very good though for getting keen youngsters like Danny air minded!

thing
7th Feb 2014, 23:09
Many aircraft accdents result from Pilot Error - often the basic error of not leaving the thing in the hangar and going by train !..Danny, that reminds me of the old one about the Station Flight Safety Officer, SFSO.

CO to AOC 'And this is our SFSO, Flt Lt Bloggs sir.'

AOC 'And how do you contribute to flight safety Flt Lt Bloggs?'

Bloggs 'They don't let me fly sir.'

Danny42C
8th Feb 2014, 00:11
Chugalug,

Not only CAoWW2 seem to be in a deep fog over the A-35B. To refresh my memory, I Googled it up and found such a mishmash of contradictory information (on specifications and performance figures) that I gave up in despair.

But one small victory: Wiki now accepts that the Camden Museum specimen is a Mk.IV (hope the Museum has painted out the fake Mk.I airframe number), so our efforts have not been in vain !....D.

thing,

"If the Good Lord had meant us to fly, He would have given us wings !" (We ignore this at our peril !)....D.

'Night, both. Danny.

Union Jack
8th Feb 2014, 07:15
"If the Good Lord had meant us to fly, He would have given us wings !"

He didn't....

(We ignore this at our peril !).

Eilmer of Malmesbury (http://www.eilmer.co.uk/)

He did.....:sad:

Jack

MPN11
8th Feb 2014, 09:30
A propos of nothing, this materialised in the newspaper this morning. Before Danny's time, of course (just) :)

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/ManualTriangulation.jpeg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/ManualTriangulation.jpeg.html)

Danny42C
8th Feb 2014, 19:39
Union Jack,

What a pearl of a link ! And how many questions begged, and how many trains of thought started !

How high was the tower ? * (he "travelled" 200 m, but I would think mostly VV ops style, ie "as a brick"). Lucky to get away with two broken legs; obviously the proto P/O Prune; should have been canonised as Patron Saint of hang-gliders; abbots are wise men; note alembic (?) at bottom of stained glass panel, obvious fire risk, hence earthernware pot (fire-ext, required by 11th century H&S ?); * I can't find how high the tower was, the spire is 131 m high, but obviously he wouldn't have launched himself from its base tower as he'd bounce off the roof on the way down.

"Elmer's Tune" has always been a favourite of mine....D.

MPN11,

I rather like Mr.Duggan's "find the position within a wide area" (done a lot of that in my time !); No "cocked hat" ? - what a "fix" (in every sense !); what interests me are his cuff rings. Similar to the C&E Preventive Service of those days (could he have doubled as Customs officer there ?)

In my time ('73-'86) the Officers wore RN width Lieutenant's rings - can't remember the Assistants, who may have had one thin ring (picture size). What I am sure about is that then the Chief Preventive Officer (obsolescent rank) wore three narrow ones (all ranks still with curl). Except their later equivalents at overseas bases, who went around masquerading as Lieut-Commanders RN....D.

Cheers, both. Danny

Danny42C
9th Feb 2014, 01:33
One day in the first week an accident happened. I didn't see it myself, but Mrs D. did. Or rather she saw the rescue. Two English ladies (forty-ish) were staying in the Madrisa. One fell awkwardly and broke (or seriously damaged) a leg. Now helicopters were in service then in the RAF, but I don't know if they were widely available for ski rescue in Europe. In any case they hadn't one to call on here.

The usual thing was to send up a luge (a sort of big wheelbarrow on skis with long handles fore-and-aft) with a couple of expert skiers (and every man and boy in the village would be that); it was always galling to see the village children come swinging fast to-and-fro across the fall-line past your class with perfect grace and balance). On this occasion the casualty must have been small and light: the instructor skied slowly down with her in his arms.

There was a sequel to this: on the Sunday after lunch we offered her companion a lift (gratefully received, of course) to the hospital to visit her. (I think we were the only British people with their own transport). Now I can't remember where the hospital was, but it would either in Dornbirn or Bregenz. Both would fit with a 1½ hour run: they were the only places around then big enough to have a hospital, (but I think it was Bregenz). The hospital was run by a nursing Order, Mary confidently recognised the nun (in full white nursing habit) who greeted us. "Our Lady !!!", she cried excitedly - this I passed on: "Die kleine hat gesagt: Die Heilige Maria !" The good nun acknowledged this with a smile (I suppose she'd heard it before).

The second week started, I remember one morning going up in the chairlift. In the bright sunshine, looking down on the woods from fifty feet above, a couple of deer were rooting about in the deep snow among the pines for whatever sustenance they could find. It was a scene which might have come straight out of Disney.

A last memory: one morning at breakfast during the second week, a little (Austrian or German) girl of four or five came over from one of the nearby tables and shyly presented Iris with a little bouquet of wild flowers for Mary. We thanked her, and signalled our thanks to her parents. It was a charming gesture we've always remembered.

All good things come to an end, the hotel had been comfortable, food was plain and good. It was a family run and family oriented place. Every afternoon, there was a an "aprés-ski" tea dance (clumsy in ski boots !) in the hotel to an accordian. And, of course, a "cabaret" of lederhosen - slapping and yodelling by the young ski instructors.

I probably turned in my ski and poles when I came off the snow on the Friday afternoon; we were on the way back home early Saturday. Chains off at the bottom of the valley, straight back to GK, no problems. We're going home !

Goodnight, all.

Danny42C.


Back to work !

Geriaviator
9th Feb 2014, 09:40
Danny, your remark about ice corpses recalls the story of Star Dust, the British South American Airways Lancastrian which disappeared in 1949 while crossing the Andes. Its fate remained a mystery for half a century until the remains of the aircraft and its occupants emerged from the bottom of the glacier.

It is believed that the Lancastrian crew, all ex-WWII airmen, had let down in cloud thinking they had crossed the mountains when in fact they had unknowingly encountered a 100 mph headwind in the jet stream. No GPS for them, of course.

Chugalug2
9th Feb 2014, 11:29
Danny:-
a little (Austrian or German) girl of four or five came over from one of the nearby tables and shyly presented Iris with a little bouquet of wild flowers for Mary. We thanked her, and signalled our thanks to her parents. It was a charming gesture we've always remembered.Here, if there were ever a need, is justification of Danny's peregrination through his varied life and career. We have all, I'm sure, had little experiences like this that touched us and stayed with us for ever.

In a thread that concerns the preparation of both individuals, and entire countries, for that most brutal and savage habit of mankind, the state of war, this little girl and her parents reminds us of its corollary, the kindness of strangers.

Thank you Danny for reminding us of the goodness of individuals, even those who would have been enemies in past conflict.

Danny42C
9th Feb 2014, 17:25
Geriaviator,

I remember the case. I think they identified the wreck by the serial numbers of components on one of the battered Merlins which had appeared as well. The BSAA aircraft was "Star something or other", IIRC.

EDIT: Idiot ! "Star Dust", of course ! (Senior Moment, what else ?)...D.

The old problem of the "stuffed cloud" again ! Truly: "if you'd end up safe and sound/Don't fly through cloud to reach the ground" - but in that terrain, they'd no option...D.

Chugalug,

Too true - there have been many heartwarming episodes in wars (perhaps the most famous being the soccer match across the lines at Christmas 1914), to remind us that there are still: "Good deeds in a naughty world"....D.

Cheers, Danny.

smujsmith
10th Feb 2014, 22:05
Danny,

From a more modern perspective, I well remember the Arab man who took time out to show me how to wear the traditional dress I had just bought correctly. The French foreign legion bloke at Sarejevo, who went halves on a Ham roll when I was trying to fix No 2 "donk" which decided it did not want to start. I believe that many British servicemen saw a "different" side to the people nominated by our political leaders as "non friendly"! Your post shows it's not a new phenomena.

Smudge:ok:

CoffmanStarter
11th Feb 2014, 07:07
I say that's a very large Douglas Protractor that chap is using in MPN11's pic post at #5125 :ooh:

clicker
11th Feb 2014, 18:53
Ref the VV performance. I have a copy of Putams "Aircraft of the RAF since 1918". It also quotes the 1200 range.

I wonder if this could have been a ferry range quote rather than any combat radius?

Danny42C
11th Feb 2014, 23:35
Smudge,

Your:
"different" side to the people nominated by our political leaders as "non friendly"! Your post shows it's not a new phenomena".

I'll not repeat all Kipling's words on this, but there is "no sense in 'ating those/'oom you are paid to kill" at the end of the day, after all. And then there are people (the ones we fought for centuries on the NW Frontier), who became the "goodies" as Muhajadeen and now are the "baddies" as the Taliban.

What goes around, comes around !....D.


Coffman Starter,

Pity he'd have to steam it off the map ! (Reminds one of the old zebra joke)....D.

clicker,

Puts me on my mettle now ! I said (in #5123): "Not only CAoWW2 seem to be in a deep fog over the A-35B. To refresh my memory, I Googled it up and found such a mishmash of contradictory information (on specifications and performance figures) that I gave up in despair".

Will now fall back on memory and the only authority I have to hand ("Vengeance" by Peter C. Smith (1986) - published by Airlife Publishing Ltd (ISBN 0 906393 65 5) - from whom I may quote (hope this will be regarded as a sufficient acknowledgement for any text "lifted")

This may take some time. "Stand by one !" Cheers, all. Danny.

MPN11
12th Feb 2014, 07:56
Vengeance Range. A rummage in the bookshelf also gave some variable answers. :sad:

Putnam's Aircraft of the RAF since 1918 (Thetford) 1,200 as already stated.
Putnam's US Military ac since 1908 (Swanborough & Bowers) gives, for the A-35B, 2,300 st. miles :eek:
Salamander's Encyclopaedia of Combat ac (Gunston) says "Typical 600 miles".

Opinion is clearly divided on the subject, but think I'll stick with Danny42C as the most reliable source!

Danny42C
13th Feb 2014, 21:04
MPN11,

He who relies on me for the "gen" is on a broken reed ! The position is: I flew 300-odd hours in the A-31 (Vengeance Mks I-III). I've never even seen a A-35 (Mk IV), and know no more about them other than what I've read.

The A-35 never got out to India at all; all the work in Burma was done by A-31s (VV Mks I-II); the first VV Mk.III (FB series) does not appear in my log until 10th July '44 and by then all VV ops had ended out there. The Mk.IIIs continued doing odd jobs in '44-'45-'46.

A number of Mk.IVs found their way to Britain, but (AFAIK) all were converted to TTs. The RAAF got Is and IIs and used them operationally, but I don't think the IVs they got at the end did much. Btw, the last Mk IV (A-35) came off the production line in Nashville in June'44 (P.C.S.)

So, all I know is this: we had six (groups of) main tanks in our wings, and a 20-gallon "trap tank" in the centre section. There were six switches for the main tanks, and (I think) one for the trap tank. In all, we were told, we had 220 US gallons (183 Imp). Cruise burned 60 Galls/hr, so we had 3 hrs endurance at, say, 160 mph - 480 miles max. That was how it was.

Now the plot thickens. I quote from the P.C.S. "Vengeance", p.12:

"....the fuel system was radical and comprised two tanks of 100 gallon capacity on each side of the wing adjacent to the fuselage, one of which was the reserve tank. outboard of these on each side were 55 gallon capacity tanks in the inner panels inbound from the break and, beyond them in the outer panels, 45 gallon tanks, giving a total capacity of 400 US gallons..."

But what Mark is he talking about ? Almost certainly, the IV. The descriptive part of his book is liberally furnished with photos and drawings - but they are nearly all A-35. He has a pic, captioned: "....Loading the wing guns in a Northrop V-72 (the original design, ie a Mk.I) at Hawthorne..." The armourer is clearly loading a (fabric) belt of .50s - it's an A-35 (Mk.IV) !

So how is all this relevant ? As far as "Combat" is concerned - forget about the Mk.IV. It doesn't count. The P.C.S. description of wing tankage above (Mk.IV ?) relates to the same general pattern as our Mks I-III. But it's the same wing - how can you push double the volume of fuel into it ? (There was nowhere else internally to put fuel, if you put it in the rear fuselage the C.of G. would go beyond recall; there were never any drop tanks.

I've looked up my log (all I-IIIs). No single trip exceeds 2.40, except one to Tintha (3.10) is annotated as: "landed Palel to refuel". That clinches it: our range must have been 4-500 miles max.

Cheers, Danny.

smujsmith
13th Feb 2014, 21:17
I should probably have posted this on the "a good military read" thread, but I'm not inclined to list any books. I've spent quite a while recently reading books based during or after WW2. My current one relates to a chap who is flying from Khormakser in Hunters in the 60s. One common thread across everything I have read seems to be the willingness of people to do their bit for our country when there is a real threat. I'm damn sure that here are still many who join the RAF for such reasons, I suspect it is becoming a career step primarily in modern times. However, my musing led me to think mainly of the era 40 - 90s and the "frailty" or otherwise of aircraft through the ages. Having followed this thread from inception, I would suggest that many a contributor has suggested the weaknesses of our aircraft, but few have seen many advantages. I suppose the Lancaster may have been an exception, but then, after the Manchester I reckon a big sigh of relief came along with its introduction. For my own part I was lucky enough to actually do some structural work on both the Spitfire and the Lancaster, and was surprised at the delicacy of structures, driven I suppose by wartime shortages of material, as compared to the C130 which I am mainly familiar with, which was certainly more robustly engineered, but threw up many structural challenges.

Perhaps there are people, either aircrew or maintenance people, who can give us some insight into "confidence" in structures and engineering aircraft that crew such as Danny may well have flown since the early forties. As I said, maybe a divergence from the "Gaining a Brevet" theme, but could surely provide some interesting anecdotal engineering input that would support why the guys who did gain that Brevet had our respect then and now.

Smudge :ok:

camlobe
14th Feb 2014, 00:49
I haven't been on here for over a month, and what a month I have missed. OMQ's, snow chains, Catalina's, Ludwig II's bed, skiing holidays, how NOT to connect an appliance, ATC, fuel consumption, etc, etc. this most wonderful thread has it all, and it is all totally fascinating. Well, it is to me, so there.

When I last posted my diatribe here, we had been introduced to one of Rolls Royce's success stories, the Dart turboprop, and how we started to get to know it well. I mentioned this was one of my bucket list items. Perhaps I better explain myself.

As a young boy around six years of age, camlobe was taken to an air show for the first time. Three things made an impression.
1. All jets are the same. Like bad lovers, they are all noise and quick as a flash.
2. An empty C130 doing a RATO/JATO. Lots of smoke and it was off the ground in the blink of an eye and climbing steeply.
3. A Lancaster doing its thing. The most beautiful sound one can hear propelling a strikingly unique shape around the sky gracefully.
The interest was kindled. Many books followed, often three ongoing at the same time (nowadays it is around five ongoing), films, documentaries and museums. As long as it was about aircraft, I was interested. The Airfix, Revel and Frog kits followed. Let's face it, I was hooked. I had decided from a young age that I wanted to join the Royal Air Force. I wanted to know how metal could be made to fly. I wanted to know how fabric could hold together in a dive. I wanted to know how that beautiful sound I heard at six years of age was created. I yearned for knowledge. But it had to the the Royal Air Force. I had firmly made my mind up about that. Only the best, the original, nothing else would do.

Problem was, I was in my mother country, Canada. (There you go, Danny). It wasn't going to happen.

In 1969, we came to the UK to meet my mothers family. It was better than any films or pictures. London left an impression: The steep wooden escalators in the Underground; black cabs that turned on a six-pence; bright red double-decker buses; Piccadilly Circus; Evening Standard vans with doors jammed open; Guinies, Pounds, Half Crown, Ten Bob notes, Shillings, Ha'penny, Farthing, Changing of the Guard, Tower Bridge, etc, etc. I was fortunate enough to to the tourist bit. When we got out of the city, the countryside was a shock. Here were small and oddly shaped fields, stone walls, sheep, and the view changed every half an hour. It was a shock to this prairie boy. Meeting my mothers family was wonderful. I suddenly gained loads of cousins (my mother had six brothers and two sisters).

When we were returning to Canada, I felt a selfish regret that we couldn't stay. And my dream of joining the RAF faded.

My father, a para-qualified Light Infantry Officer retired at minimum age (45), and went back to university as a mature student where he gained his second degree. Prior to joining up, he was a qualified chemist (not the pharmacy kind). He had decided to follow in his fathers footsteps and on retirement turn to teaching. Unfortunately, there was a glut of teachers in Canada at the time. So my mother suggested the UK. I was asked if I would mind moving to the UK to live.

Didn't have to chew on that one for long.

To get to the UK, we needed to short haul from Vancouver Island to Vancouver, and the task fell to a Vickers Viscount. Sat at a window seat (they were nice, big windows on Viscount's) I overlooked the port inboard engine. This long, sleek and highly polished unit had an internationally recognisable badge placed to be seen from the windows. The double 'R's of Rolls Royce. I looked at this shining and smooth power unit and told myself that one day I would find out how it worked. That engine was a Dart.

Fast forward a few years, and due to unrelated circumstances, we have the OIC of the 'local' CIO (30 miles away) around for dinner. As we ate at a table Paul and Linda McCartney were familiar with, I was enthralled by this mans reminiscences. About a year or so later, I had decided the time had come. I dropped out of the second year of sixth form, and elected to bypass university. I asked my father to accompany me to the CIO. Mildly surprised, he agreed. The same Flt Lt was in post, and he made my father and I most welcome. It was 1977. After a good catch-up and reasonable coffee and biscuits, he got down to business. He knew me (we had met only the once), he knew my family (ditto), my educational qualifications were more than good enough (minimum requirement of five 'O' Levels including Maths, English, and a Science subject, none of the limp-wristed, airy-fairy Arts subjects) and I exceeded these, healthy, spotlessly clean record. Oh, he talked me up well.

"So you want to be a pilot. No problem. We are recruiting right now, so there will be no delay, what, what did you say?"

I said, I want to join the RAF. I didn't say I want to be a pilot.

Silence...

"Well, what were you thinking of doing?"

I would like to learn how aeroengines work.

"Oh, that's all right then. We train you up completely on them as part of your pilots training".

No, I don't think you understand what I mean. I want to learn down to the last detail how aeroengines work. I would like to be an aircraft engine fitter.

For the next 20 minutes, the Flt Lt and my father tried their hardest to try and persuade me to change my mind. To no avail.

I take it I can always choose to learn to fly once I am already serving?

"Yes, yes, but it would be much easier for you to join as a pilot before you become too old to be selectable".

I'll take my chances on that.

"Well, you will have to wait nine months before the next slot is available for engine fitter training. But you can join up right now to be a pilot. Right now."

Thank you, but I'll wait that nine months. I've waited many years for this.

The aptitude tests I sat were strangely far more intense than the tests my fellow engine fitter trainees sat. Maybe the OIC CIO was being as prepared as possible in case I changed my mind. I didn't.

To this day, I have never regretted this decision, and although I am certain my father was disappointed, he never said so to me.

Camlobe

Chugalug2
14th Feb 2014, 07:16
Wow! What a tour de force camlobe! The single mindedness of the young is indeed a wondrous thing, which I'm sure that many here recall. I can certainly relate to your determination, to the extent that having been told by Daedalus House, "Thanks, but no thanks, but do try again next year", I did and then managed to get accepted.


In my case of course it was the reverse of yours, for I wanted to be a pilot and only a pilot. I had rehearsed my reaction if offered Navigator instead, and decided to call their bluff (if bluff it be) and politely decline. As it happened it didn't arise, but again that single mindedness is apparent...or was it simply bloody mindedness?


Smuj, the engs will know best of course, but was the relative structural weakness in the 40's that you mention a reflection of the power/weight ratio? Was the development of the jet engine the means of increasing the first so that more structure could be added to the second? Even the late WW2 fighters seemed to be more rugged than the earlier ones, especially the ones with large radial engines. Merely an impression, and I bow as ever to the experts...

Danny42C
14th Feb 2014, 14:00
Chugalug and Smudge,

Re: Flimsy Structures in WW2 a/c.

I imagine they found it economical to build them just strong enough to last their anticipated life - which might not be very long in some cases ! I remember being told that the Spitfire life was reckoned to be six months on average.

Consequently they didn't have to worry about corrosion problems - if they hadn't been shot down, some Prune would've pranged 'em long before the rot set in. The days of a/c lasting as long as battleships (and being older than their pilots) were well in the future.....D.

camlobe,

I second Chuglug's complimentary remarks ! Yet it is not always good policy to ask for (still less insist on getting) what you want from the RAF. They have a nasty, vicious sense of humour in their make-up ! (as the next [last] tranche of my GK days will illustrate - if I ever manage to finish it)....D.

Cheers, all. Danny.

MPN11
14th Feb 2014, 19:56
camlobe ... You were lucky to have such a fixed vocation.

Mine, from the age of 12 (IIRC) was to be "an Hoooficer in the RAF". After several juvenile years pin-balling from pillar to post, wasting time and failing things and really getting nowhere, suddenly I were one. The actual career path wasn't as focussed as yours, it was somewhat more broad-brush. And the numerous rejections and failures are a short book on their own.

However, eventually it all fell into place. All my past was simply history. I was where I had always wanted to be (OK, not a pilot, but other humans also exist) ... and I eventually had a very happy and successful career.

Danny42C
15th Feb 2014, 01:41
There were of course many other excursions. The Mosel valley is not far from GK and once we spent a pleasant weekend at a little hotel there close to the river. We went to the Leave Centre at Winterberg for a few days, but I'm not sure at what time of year, for it was very quiet, the snows had almost gone (probably late spring) and there was hardly anyone else in the place, but we enjoyed our walks in the nearby woods. (This was one of Hitler's "Strength through Joy" holiday centres; curiously I can find very little information on this aspect of its history).

And one "Martinmas" (November 1st) we went down to Seefeld (Austria) to check-out a little Alpine chalet we'd seen advertised as a holiday let. Now this must have been '61, and the only possible reason we can think of for going down there would be to book it for our skiing trip (which eventually would be as a package tour). Or possibly for the summer of '62 ? Whichever, when we saw the place, it didn't come up to the advertised standard (and certainly not to our expectations !): we turned it down and gave up the idea.

But still we had to find a hotel in Seefeld for the night we spent down there. The only place open had no heating on, it was absolutely freezing. We spent the whole night in our room, huddled under a pile of blankets, with Mary sandwiched between us to keep warm. And we still remember the wiener schnitzel the old grandmother (who seemed to be running the place) cooked up for us.

Normally we'd do the journeys GK - Austria or back in one hop, but once, in fairly warm weather, we overnighted in Heidelberg (which cannot have been far off the direct route). We were charmed by the beautiful old red sandstone town, the Castle above, the bridge towers over the Neckar, and above all the romantic "Student Prince" feel of the place - for it was really an operetta set come to life.

Back at GK, life continued as normal into summer. Throughout our time there we'd made frequent shopping visits to Holland, always crossing at the same point, so the border guards there got to know us quite well. Particularly they spotted Mary (calling her: "die kleine prinzessin") - and indeed she was a picture.

We'd bought a toy plastic "car seat" (sort of miniature high-chair top). This was furnished with a toy steering wheel, a column "shift" and (battery) horn button (which was soon worn out !). The whole device had loops over the passenger seat back: strapped into it by her harness, Mary was high enough to see out easily and beamed at her admirers.

Of course, there was absolutely no protection. But in those days we didn't think of things like that. Compulsory seat belts and anchored child seats were far in the future (although the 403 had front lap straps, few used them - but we did as I knew their value all too well).

We should be going back to UK in the autumn. An official letter arrived, over the signature of someone who assured me that he remained "My Obedient Servant" (when clearly he was nothing of the kind: the boot was on the other foot). I was informed that RAF(G) had taken cognisance of the fact that my tour was coming to an end, and politely wished to know what my preferences were for my next posting. :eek:

After I came to, (with Mrs D. anxiously applying the smelling salts), my first thought was that I'd been transported into the past (like Dr. Who) and that it was really April 1st. Finally convinced that this was not the case, it dawned on me that this had to be a hoax. Someone must be taking the Mickey out of me ! I examined the letter minutely, but by every indication it appeared to be genuine. Why not take it at face value ?, we thought. What could we lose ? I replied that I would be happy to go anywhere they liked, and into any Command - save one: Please Not Flying Training Command again ! (I prefer the quiet life).

You just know what's going to happen, don't you ? (P2 cannot be accused of not having a sense of humour). Linton-on-Ouse, that's what ! Oh, well, they must not be grudged their little joke.

The last weeks sped by. I dug out the packs of crate slats and screws for the Twin-Tub and the pram, the RAF supplied folding plywood containers for our belongings (which had mysteriously doubled in volume in just one tour). The car had to be re-registered in the UK, I got a London registration (was this compulsory ?) - 87 EXT - (why didn't I hang on to that: would've been worth a bit today). This alloy plate would be screwed on top of the plastic "LP 97 B" and the Paris temporary registation - the car's third (and final) brush with officialdom.

I've earlier recounted my unsuccessful attempt to blow up my MQ, and how the boiler door hung on precariously until an hour before the Marching Out, then collapsed. I think that was the only thing we were "done" for. We left, the car loaded to the gunwales. We were booked Boulogne-Dover on the afternoon ferry. The Belgian pavé was ready and waiting for us: the middle pipe and back box fell off just before Brussels.

Fortunately, an Àgence Peugeot was Prochain, and did a rush job. What we paid them, and in what currency, I can't remember. We'd started with time in hand, but now it was tight. In Boulogne, desperation lent fluency to my tongue: "Voudrais-vous m'indiquer la Gare Maritime, M'sieu, s.v.p ?", I begged a surprised Frenchman on the curb after screeching to a stop beside him.

Luckily, he understood and simply pointed. We were the last car over the ramp: as we rolled onto the car deck I could see it (in the mirror) lifting behind us.It was a British Rail ferry; now we were effectively back on British soil. At Dover, I still remember admiring the skill with which the ship was stopped at the harbour mouth, then turned in its own length to go astern into the berth. H.M. Customs eagerly surveyed their next tranche of victims. We looked worth investigating.

But I had all the paperwork for the car ready: we were in the clear there. Yet honour must be satisfied; he had to find something to justify his existence. Our "Slant-o-matic" sewing machine and Mrs D.'s watch would do. Comparing the receipt for the watch with the "0.586" (or whatever) on the back of the case, he looked at us quizzically (I think he thought we'd been "done"). Mrs D. remembers a bill of £17 for both, which was hard enough in all conscience.

We were about "all-in" now. We found a nice little B&B in Dover and called it a night.

Goodnight, all.

Danny42C.


All's well that ends well !

Chugalug2
16th Feb 2014, 12:35
What could we lose ?Danny I'm sure that you've realised since that the only way that you could have avoided FTC was to ask for it! Were you not raised on the stories of Br'er Rabbit? He begged not to be thrown into the Briar Patch simply to ensure that would be the case, and from which he could then make his escape. If you'd read those stories to Mary, perhaps she could have best advised you?
Just making the Ferry home I can empathise with, for having made the wrong turning off the Lille bypass, I lost so much time in driving to the end of that spur and retracing my steps again, that I barely had time to shop at the Calais Duty Free and fill the rear of my brand new VW Polo (that I was importing from W Berlin).
The filling up with crates of wine was an essential part of the whole complex financial construct, so naturally could not be avoided. The result was that, like you, I was last aboard my booked Hovercraft, and as they secured the car so the doors closed behind it. Next stop Dover Customs and the demand for much Gelt (not for the wine, but for the car).

Warmtoast
16th Feb 2014, 19:05
Like Chuglug and Danny I remember well the return to the UK from JHQ Rheindahlen in July 1975.

Having vacated our Moenchengladbach quarter we went on leave down to Italy for a week or two and on our return stayed a night at Rheindahlen's families transit mess. Next day we loaded the car with everything we could and drove to Ostend for the overnight Belgian ferry to Dover. Arriving early at Dover we went through the usual (unusual?) customs formalities, but in our case we obviously got a customs officer who had a thing about personnel returning to the UK with BFG registered cars.
Having said we had nothing to declare that we shouldn't have, he was in no mood to believe us and having examined our receipt for the Volvo that we'd purchased 13-months previously thus making it eligible for import to the UK without paying tax, he wanted to examine everything else in the car to see whether we were carrying contraband or whatever - were we carrying more than the allowed amounts of spirits and wine, cigarettes etc. or were we potential smugglers?
So this so-and-so of a customs officer was determined to check everything and everything had to be taken out of the car for his examination - HiFi, camera, bike, watches etc. etc. and this when we had two young kids to deal with too. I had all my receipts to hand and eventually he let us go - but it was a most unsettling experience and wondered was this the normal HMC method of dealing with BFG personnel returning to the UK?

Photo below shows how loaded we were shortly before our departure from Rheindahlen - we even had a bike on the top of the roof-rack!

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BFG%20Volvo/ReturntoUK_zps01b20f0a.jpg

I did earlier, after hearing Danny's adventure on buying his car in France, mention I'd do a piece on how one did it at JHQ - so watch his space!

As a PS. This is how the main entrance to JHQ looked in 1974. May bring back a few memories to those who served there.
My abiding memory of the place was that it was the most confusing "rabbit-warren" of a building I've ever entered, after a month or two I think I'd cracked the layout and could navigate around the place without getting lost, but occasionally I'd get caught out and find myself in a corridor full of Belgians or Dutch who wanted to know what I was doing there! Getting out from their enclave was simply a matter of finding the word "uitgang" - Dutch for Way Out!

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/JHQ%20Rheindahlen/JHQ2.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/JHQ%20Rheindahlen/JHQCropped.jpg

Danny42C
16th Feb 2014, 19:42
Chugalug,

How right you are ! I really ought to have known much better. I should, as you say, "lain low and said nuthin' ", like wise Brer Rabbit. But I suppose that I must have hoped that once, just once, the RAF might have not been "speaking with forked tongue". Ah, well.

Your: "and as they secured the car". Did a couple of brawny deckhands "bounce" it into its slot, as they did ours ? And the Hovercraft - wouldn't they have been useful in the floods today ? (Admittedly, everyone around would have got very wet, but then they were wet to start with, and it's no worse than standing at the curb when a car goes past in the rain).

Hope you got your money's worth out of the Polo, including monstrous impost of HM Treasury. You might like to know that seized smuggled wines and spirits are poured down the drain, seized tobacco is burned in an incinerator (the "Queen's Pipe"). What a shame ! :(

Danny.

PS. I served out my last thirteen years as an Officer of Customs & Excise (but in VAT), so was never one of your tormentors.....D.

Union Jack
16th Feb 2014, 19:48
Photo below shows how loaded we were shortly before our departure from Rheindahlen

I trust that the self-levelling suspension kicked in once the engine was running, and have checked that you were just about legal under German child labour laws, viz
" ....provided the work of the child is “light,” which is defined as not involving uncomfortable postures or dangers from animals or machinery that a child may not assess accurately or may not have experience in averting. Those below the age of thirteen may not be required to lift objects repeatedly that weigh more than 7.5 kilograms or to lift objects occasionally that weigh more than 10 kilograms."!:ouch:

Jack

PS No kitchen sink?

Danny42C
16th Feb 2014, 21:29
Warmtoast,

I think it was the normal attitude displayed by HMCE to returning Forces from BAOR. The reasoning might have been: these people have been out there for two-three years, quite long enough to suss-out all the most attractive items to make savings on if Import Duty (and VAT) could be avoided. Human nature being what it is........!

Once saw a very good German cartoon about this. The Grenzpolitzei had virtually dissembled their poor victim's car; the bits were spread out all over the tarmac - but had found nothing.

"Alles in Ordnung", they'd said, "Weiterfahren !" (Carry on !), left him to it and turned to the next car. (You see, the Germans do have a sense of humour !)

Your first picture tells a story which we can all relate to. How many times have we packed our cars until the back was down on the bump-springs ? I reckon you've got an Angle of Attack on there which should get you airborne if you could get it to go fast enough.

Danny.

Warmtoast
16th Feb 2014, 22:44
Union Jack

and have checked that you were just about legal under German child labour laws

...we were going to send young son up the chimney with a sweep's brush, but had second thoughts and decided that sending him out cleaning cars would provide a greater reward for the family income - and don't forget son was covered by the "Status of Forces" agreement so German law didn't apply!

Warmtoast
16th Feb 2014, 22:49
Danny

I reckon you've got an Angle of Attack on there which should get you airborne if you could get it to go fast enough.


The terrain from JHQ to Ostend is boringly flat so no chance of that, but if the route involved a steep mountain pass with a long straight downhill and with a following wind who knows what would have happened!

clicker
17th Feb 2014, 08:04
Slightly off topic but hopefully fits in re cars "taken apart".

For a number of years I worked at an aviation bookshop on the A4 Great West Road that was located by a junction that had its fair share of serious accidents. For anyone who might have known the area it was by the Master Robert Motel.

One year we had two fatals at the junction, both caused by someone jumping the traffic lights.

Shortly after the second accident the Met Police Accident Prevention Unit came for a weeks visit posting motorcycles units at several lights. They would give words of advice to anyone who stopped with any part over the white line or jumped the light. Their used our junction as a base because of a large concrete area suitable for parking a few vans etc so we got chatting to them at them.

Along comes a London taxi, couple of pax in the back and stops with the front well over the white line. Officer indicates him to pull over, which he does. From the shop we can see he's quite annoyed, oh dear, big mistake.

Officer stops another taxi and pax are "transferred". About 45 mins later a black van appears and a few lads jumped out and start to take a good look at the offending black cab, panels get taken off with a bit of poking and prodding. Even light bulbs are taken out and looked at. Finally the taxi is handed back to the driver for his garage to collect as he has not the means to put some of the bits back correctly.

He had clearly forgotten a simple point, the Mets are the controlling authority for the licencing of the cabs and so they had called up the relevant lads. He walked away with a large bill as they found quite a few faults with the cab including, we were told, having too high a wattage on the headlight bulbs.

And all because he didn't want to hear a 30 sec piece of advise.

Danny42C
17th Feb 2014, 19:07
clicker,

It's never a good idea to start a fight you can't win (or to "buck the system" - for the system will always "buck" you !)

In any encounter with the Guardians of the Peace, adopt an attitude of humble cringing penitence: "Yes, Sergeant" (to a Constable) or "Yes, Inspector" (if a Sergeant), etc. Goes down well. "A ticket for the Police Ball ? - Certainly, Officer - I'll take two !"

Belligerence is not a good idea (particularly in foreign parts). A neighbour in the Volkspark had a German girl in as a baby-sitter one night. The boy friend turned up at the door, somewhat miffed as (he maintained) other arrangements had been made for that evening. The altercation became extremely heated; the Polizei were called.

They arrived with commendable speed. "Now, quieten down and go home, sonny", they said. But Sonny was having none of it. Without further ado, a Polizeist whacked him over the head with his nightstick, threw the recumbent form into the back of the Combi, and off he went for a night in the cells.

Peace reigned once more...D.

Fareastdriver
17th Feb 2014, 20:14
I once caught a taxi from Tanguu to Tianjin. The taxi driver should have refused the fare becaused he would certainly have known that taxis in Tianjin have a system to cut down traffic congestion. Taxis with odd numbered licence plates are allowed in the city centre on odd days; even numbered plates on even days.

I hadn't noticed but his plate ended with 3 and it was the 12th. All went well until we crossed the Imperial canal and stopped at a junction where a policeman was on point duty, (remember that?) He pointed at our taxi and firmly directed it to the base on his podium.

He then stopped ALL the traffic, strode down to road level and gave the driver the most horrendous ballocking that I have ever received or witnessed in my life. Even though it was nothing to do with me I was cowering against the passenger door.

He then turned to me. With a searing look and a wave he motioned me out of the vehicle. Realising that I wasn't going to be in it any more I reached into my pocket to pay the fare as it was quite a distance. "MAYO" (no-nothing) he shouted and pointed at the pavement.

In China you do what policemen say, the carry a shooter on their belt. I stood and watched whilst my taxi driver got another couple of minutes of vitriol and then he pointed him back to Tanguu and a relieved driver floored the throttle.

There was no shortage of taxis. Whlst this had been going on the traffic had backed up about four blocks in every direction so I had a convoy of them come my way.

The taxi driver used to be outside the hotel where I stayed so next time i saw him I gave him the 60 yuan for the trip. He hadn't had any action taken against him. Being Tanguu based being chased from Tianjin was far too difficult.

BEagle
17th Feb 2014, 20:48
Warmtoast, your tale reminds me of the experience I had 30 years ago when returning to the UK through Dover....

I'd been over for a few days visiting Her Loveliness at her flat in Frankfurt and had driven there in my less-than-a-year-from-new Opel Manta. I'd taken the 18:00 Oostende ferry back, which had taken ages as this was before the days of the excellent SeaCat. Over 4 hours, in fact, due to adverse weather. Finally we got to Dover and off the boat to the customs check.

Whereupon some nasty little $hit took a great interest in my car. He ordered me, rather than asking politely, to open the boot. Nothing there except a small suitcase and a carton of bottles - my precise duty free allowance. "Get those that the NAAFI, did you?", he queried (although there was nothing to indicate that I was a member of the Armed Forces).....

"No - at some supermarket in Frankfurt. I think it was Kaufhof"
"Where did you get the car?"
"Ipswich"
"Not through the BFG?"
"No. Ipswich, Suffolk, England - perhaps you've heard of it? And if you want to know, yes, I am an officer in the RAF and I'm stationed at RAF Brize Norton in British West Oxfordshire. Now - is there anything else with which I can help you?"
"Err, no. On your way"
"On your way....SIR??!!"

Obviously the odious little creep had thought he'd been a smart alec and had spotted someone trying to bring a BFG car back without paying tax. Fortunately we don't have to experience the nastiness of such petty officials these days, thanks to the EU!

It would have been a long drive back to Brize that night (no M25!), so I'd taken the precaution of booking into an hotel in Dover. And one of the bottles of duty-free wine certainly helped me to simmer down after the treatment I'd had from that little so-and-so!

26er
18th Feb 2014, 09:14
Dec '60 I brought my heavily laden 403 back to UK via Lydd courtesy of Silver City, the rest of the family having gone on ahead by train/ferry. No problems at all with Customs. In another later life daily went through crew customs in Queen's building, LHR, to be met by customs officers dressed like naval officers with a portcullis hat badge. Then a few years back drove off the ferry at Dover to be met by a phalanx of dayglo jacketed hatless, what I took to be baggage handlers, only to be shouted at and stopped as I tried to escape. As far as I could tell the only way they could be identified was if they turned their back to you and their job description was written in large letters. How times have changed.

Geriaviator
18th Feb 2014, 11:17
In 1969 I took my non-radio Tiger Moth to Paris -- oh, happy days when we could make such journeys. We crossed the Irish Sea to refuel at Blackpool, thence Halfpenny Green and Denham to the historic airfield at Lympne which was due to close. On arrival at Lympne I refuelled and was told to leave the aircraft where it was while I cleared Customs.

There is only one thing more recalcitrant than a Gipsy Major which won't start, and that's a warm Gipsy Major which won't start. I explained this to the Customs officer but he was having none of it. His regulations required the aircraft to be presented (his words) in the designated Customs parking area even though he could see it from his window.

Having swung vainly for about 10 minutes on a sweltering day my wife and I spent 15 more pushing the Tiger to the great man's Designated Area, where he spent all of two minutes stamping his paperwork. It took about 15 minutes to start the aircraft, at the end of which I was blown out as thoroughly as Mr. de Havilland's accursed creation had been.

During one swing I felt something go click in my shoulder, but as I cooled down over the Channel and descended into Berck-sur-Mer I forgot about it. The French Customs officer regarded the TM with disbelief: "d'Irlande? avec le Tigre? Formidable ma fou" and sent us off for a superb holiday.

Two years later I began to have increasing pain in my right shoulder to the extent that I could not sleep or even lie on my side. Even I could see the calcium deposits around my shoulder joint in the X-ray. The specialist suggested it could be the result of a sporting injury but when I demonstrated the twisting, pulling action of the propellor swing he announced a new diagnosis which he would call Swinger's Shoulder. This would doubtless be a conversation piece provided Tiger Moth was not mentioned.

One steroid injection into the joint hurt like hell but provided instant remedy, for that night I had my first decent sleep for over a year. Thirty-four years later the joint is still fine ... it's the other bits that are the problem.

26er
18th Feb 2014, 14:59
On reflection and having read Geriaviator's contribution I am not sure where the Silver City Bristol Frightener landed in the UK. I seem to remember they called it "Ferryfield".

In 1985 I imported a VW Golf from Berlin. That time the biggest problem with customs was at the German/Dutch border where I had to search for a German customs officer (it was lunchtime) to have a stamp on the car documents proving it had been exported.

Warmtoast
18th Feb 2014, 16:59
BEagle

Thanks for your contribution. When I was with 99 Sqn at Lyneham 1959 - 63, we were always pestered by Customs on return, especially when back from the Far East. With all the desirable goods on offer from the shops in Changi village, or duty-free from Aden etc. we HAD to be examined. But it wasn’t too bad as long as one declared the valuable and attractive items that were subject to duty and purchase tax, even with these added to the original “silly” prices one paid for cameras or watches in Changi or radios and electrical items from Aden they were considerably cheaper than UK shop prices which were firmly ruled by retail price maintenance which was enshrined in UK law ISTR to keep prices artificially high.

My brother-in-law was in the music business and had a friend a quite well known music arranger. At a party the music arranger saw the watch I had on my arm (a Rolex GMT-Master) he asked how much I’d paid for it in Singapore - when I told him (about £20 I think) he said could I get one for him too and said he’d pay the duty and VAT. As far as I was concerned no problem, so next time I was down the route and armed with his money for watch, duty and purchase tax I bought the watch for him - he was really chuffed because the same watch in the UK was selling at around £75. So the Changi village price plus UK tax and duty paid to HM Customs at Lyneham bought iy up to about £30 - £35 in all. Having done it once, friend wanted more, he was well-off, in the music industry and wanted to impress his friends with what seemed expensive gifts so asked me to help. He was the entrée to some fabulous parties usually populated by gorgeous girls so I was more than willing to help!

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RolexGMTTimemaster_zps2a56b295.jpg

The moral of this story is that provided one declared everything of value to HM Customs on return to the UK and paid any relevant duties and tax you were doing no wrong, I never had any problems with HM Customs the whole time I was with 99 Sqn, which is why the only sour note is of my experience with customs is on my return from Germany in 1975, as recounted above.

Geriaviator
18th Feb 2014, 17:06
Silver City used to fly from Lydd/Ferryfield. As Lympne had closed while we were away, we returned to Lydd where the Customs were very pleasant considering that the Tiger Moth was nearly presented in their Customs Hall.

Lympne was a prewar grass airfield, Lydd had acres of concrete which was like an ice-rink to the Tiger Moth's tailskid. Before a 20 kt breeze she sailed across the apron like a stately galleon, requiring me to bale out and grab the wingtip while my wife administered full rudder and a burst of throttle to swing her into wind.

The kindly controller gave us a green light for an unconventional departure into wind across the apron and taxiway, a technique we also used on the Isle of Man. With such a breeze the Tiger was airborne in a mere 50 yds.

MPN11
18th Feb 2014, 17:19
ISTR a 20 Sqn (C Flt) Single Pioneer doing a similar crosswind landing at Tengah, in 69/70, and gently pottering straight ahead into the dispersal in front of the Officers Mess.

DFCP
18th Feb 2014, 17:22
Ah, HMC&S
Living in Brussels in the early 60, s I visited the UK on occasion
Arriving at LHR one day I declared a bottle of Grand Marnier. The little man seized it and put it on a table out of my reach.He then announced that as a US citizen living in Belgium I had no duty free allowance.If I had been able to I would have dropped the bottle but I was given an alternative---pay 2/6 and the bottle would be kept in Queens Storage and could be picked up when I left the UK via Dover---and this system did work.
New Years Eve 1961 we ferried over from Ostend to Dover and were met at Customs by a nasty little man with a flat hat--again I declared a bottle of GM and he then insisting on seeing it.I tried in vain to get it by opening the boot/trunk on our Mini.Later finding out that my son had broken off a pencil in the lock.So it was an impasse with him insisting on seeing the bottle and me unable to get it out of the boot. Then somehow he realised we were not , as he thought BAOR ,but US citizens---he waved us through!
My affinity for Grand Marnier for gifts was that at that time I think it was only $3.50 a bottle at duty free stores

Fareastdriver
18th Feb 2014, 20:32
You try and bring in a cheap Changi watch now. It will be in the bin faster than it can tick.

A friend came out for a short detachment to China. Shenzhen has a plethora of conterfeit goods. He loaded up: Rolexs, electric, £10, clockwork, £20. he bought seven of them. For his kids he bought Adidas trainers at £7 a throw and for hinself he flashed out £50 for a full set of Ping clubs. We tried to persude him to use them on a driving range 200 metres away so they would be second-hand but he wasn't having any of it.
He went back to the UK with KLM via Schipol and then to Aberdeen. At Aberdeen he went through customs and they confiscated everything, the whole lot.
Not a happy bunny.

I always came back with BA through Heathrow. My baggage would be labelled ABZ at Hong Kong. I would arrive in Aberdeen on a domestic flight and by the carousel was a notice to the effect that if somebody from oversea had something to declare would they pick up the adjacent telephone.

I never had an occasion to do that.

Wander00
18th Feb 2014, 21:28
In France even possession of counterfeit clones is subject to confiscation and substantial fines

Danny42C
18th Feb 2014, 22:06
Warmtoast,

Your: "I bought the watch for him - he was really chuffed because the same watch in the UK was selling at around £75".

An Omega GMTMASTER ! How times have changed !...D

Fareastdriver,

I suppose I was lucky getting my "West End Watch Company" (aka Longines) home in '46 - but the Liverpool Customs shrank from us as potential plague carriers, and passed us all through without a murmer !..D.

This natter is going on splendidly - exactly as a Forum should. Btw, I seem to have been the trigger for the advts appearing here recently for artificial ice-rinks (they must read us). It's nice to see PPRuNe getting a bit of revenue from our efforts ! :ok:

Cheers, Danny.

Union Jack
18th Feb 2014, 22:09
I always came back with BA through Heathrow. My baggage would be labelled ADN at Hong Kong. I would arrive in Aberdeen on a domestic flight and by the carousel was a notice to the effect that if somebody from oversea had something to declare would they pick up the adjacent telephone.

I never had an occasion to do that.

Not surprising surely, if you arrived at ABZ, and all your baggage arrived in Colombia ..... :D

Jack

PS Sorry - couldn't resisthttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/embarass.gif

Warmtoast
18th Feb 2014, 22:48
Fareastdriver

You try and bring in a cheap Changi watch now. It will be in the bin faster than it can tick.

The Changi village era I was describing was about was 54-years or so ago in the very early 1960's - and at that time these Rolex watches were the real thing. The Asian counterfeiting trade as we know it today hadn't taken off way back then and the only counterfeit goods I can remember from that time were imitation Parker pens - they were very good copies and worked well!

ancientaviator62
19th Feb 2014, 06:54
When I did my tour on 48 in Changi (there until the withdrawal) Changi watches were guaranteed to last until the top of climb on the first trip you wore one !
By then we were mainly buying Seiko watches from HK.

Chugalug2
19th Feb 2014, 07:56
In defence of Danny's erstwhile colleagues, they weren't all rabid anti HM Forces ogres. At Fairford we had our own guy, who was most accommodating. Arriving back from the Changi Slip, I duly declared my latest acquisition, a Tuner Amp.
"So that's a tape recorder then", he pronounced having seen it.
"Well it's actually a Tuner Amp", I replied (slowly so that he could take it in).
"Which would make it a type of tape recorder then", was his reply.
"OK, it's a tape recorder" I acknowledged in defeat.
"No problem then, it's free of duty as it's for educational use, isn't it?"
"Yes of course", I muttered, as pennies at last began to drop!


In contrast, the CPO at Lyneham in earlier times was renowned for being in a foul mood if Swindon Town (I think he sat on the Board) had been beaten that day. On inbound flights the Sigs duties included monitoring the Classified Football Results lest retribution awaited us!

Fareastdriver
19th Feb 2014, 08:36
Warmtoast.

In the early sixties, 1963 IIRC, the nav plotter on my Valiant crew, who had previously been on a Canberra tour at Tengah, sold me a Rolex for £35. I, being a mere co-pilot, believed his sales pitch and acquired what I thought was a bargain.
His time in the RAF then came to an end and he disappeared into the depths of Gosport.
The watch then stopped and innocently I took it along to the local high class jewellers for them to take a look at it. Their merriment was quite embarrassing.

I then had to crawl back to Flying Clothing Stores to draw back the aircrew watch that I had boasted that I would not need anymore.

MPN11
19th Feb 2014, 08:49
Changi Village, 1965. £5 of Seiko self-winding (which has a replacement strap, and that's all). I've just unearthed it to photograph for here and it's started ticking: talk about reliable!! CBA to reset the date, though - I can hardly read that these days. ;)

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/P1030733.jpg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/P1030733.jpg.html)

Warmtoast
19th Feb 2014, 09:41
Chugalug2

In contrast, the CPO at Lyneham in earlier times was renowned for being in a foul mood if Swindon Town (I think he sat on the Board) had been beaten that day.

I remember him well, a Mr P...son ISTR, but to be fair he once asked me to buy him a Car Coat in Singapore or Hong Kong (in the early 60's all the rage and virtually unobtainable in the UK). As clothing I don't think there was any duty or tax to pay so his conscience was possibly salved and I didn't mind as I was building up brownie points for the next time I arrived back in the UK on a Sunday or Monday following a Saturday when Swindon Town had been thrashed, hoping he'd remember me well enough to be lenient with my declared imports.

Fareastdriver
19th Feb 2014, 14:30
Union Jack

Quite close to the truth. I arrived in Aberdeen and slowly the carousol emptied and the source dried up. There were three others in the same boat and I recognised one of them as standing in the steerage line at check-in HK. It was assessed that the handlers at Thiefrow had not had enough time to riff through our bags in time to connect to the Aberdeen flight
We all trotted off to the BA office and had to fill in forms describing our baggage, etc. Because our baggage had originated from overseas we were all given a customs form to fill in.

Therein was a problem.

Owing to an oversight by my staff in China they had loaded 600 Benson & Hedges in my bag and they had not told me until after it had been checked in at Shekou. (I was flying with Cathay so the baggage check in was done before you caught the ferry from Shekou to Chep Lap Kok). I then had to declare those on the form.

I was assured by BA that when it arrived it would be forwarded to me by taxi and so I went home. It then occured to me that they hadn't asked for my keys so somebody was going to have to twist the cheap padlock off.

The taxi arrived that afternoon, unopened and no bill. I found on subsequent arrivals at Heathrow that if you were working overseas and had a bit of an excess as long as you declared it they waved you through. To much paperwork if you insisted on declaring it.

Up to the turn of the century there was not to much of a problem with dodgy watches, etc. As long as it was for your personal use and there was only ONE of them then it would be waved through. Unfortunately an EU directive came along and scotched that so everything had to be destroyed.

What it meant was that a fashion hanbag produced in China and sold at the tenth of the cost of an identical handbag made in China had to be destroyed so the label owner could continue to make a killing.

Reader123
19th Feb 2014, 14:46
"What it meant was that a fashion hanbag produced in China and sold at the tenth of the cost of an identical handbag made in China had to be destroyed so the label owner could continue to make a killing."

Quite right too. Protection of a designer's IP is important. If you're fussed by having a label, then pay for it. If you're not prepared to pay for the label, then buy something generic from Primark.


Tales of custom officers always alarm me. I presume that nowadays no public servant has that sort of latitude to let you off a statutory liability. Imagine the outcry in the newspapers. Or indeed the scope for bribery.

Do they still say 'If I were you I'd wear that watch and then it's second hand'?

Danny42C
19th Feb 2014, 16:03
Chugalug,

My sincere thanks for springing to the defence of my erstwhile colleagues in HMC&E, * and for the accompanying heartwarming story ! (#5167) It should be borne in mind that many of them are ex-Forces, some from our mob, and tend to be well disposed towards us.

In my thirteen years with them, I had little contact with the uniformed branch, but in our VAT District (besides me), we had in our room an ex-REME Captain, a Master Mariner and a charming young lady who'd been Third Officer on a tanker in the Gulf.

Thing is, the Customs Officer is trained to go after the Crown's Revenue with an almost Messianic fervour, suspecting everybody and allowing nothing to deflect him from his task. And although I'm sure that present company would not dream of depriving Her Majesty of her rightful dues, you will be horrified to learn that there are weaker vessels among us who are unable to resist the temptation.

Soured therefore by experience, your Preventive Officer will leave no stone unturned and no bag un-rummaged until he finds something - or his day will have been in vain and he will be unable to sleep that night. As a leading light in the accountancy profession warned on the introduction of VAT: "The Customs Officer lives for the day when the yacht sidles into the cove through the mist - and he's waiting on top of the path with musket and cutlass !"

* That was when we were proud of our heritage from the days of Charles I, before amalgamation with those 19th century upstarts of Inland Revenue .....D.

MPN11,

Your #5169: "Changi Village, 1965. £5 of Seiko self-winding (which has a replacement strap, and that's all). I've just unearthed it to photograph for here and it's started ticking: talk about reliable!!"

My old "West End Watch Co" (Longines), 1944, still going strong, will see me out (I have it MOT'd every three years or so). But no thing of beauty like yours, I'm afraid !...D.

Warmtoast,

I think your Car Coat would have been liable for Purchase Tax at that time - it was only childrens' sizes that were exempt. And of course there was always Import Duty !...D.

Reader123,

Your: "Tales of custom officers always alarm me. I presume that nowadays no public servant has that sort of latitude to let you off a statutory liability. Imagine the outcry in the newspapers. Or indeed the scope for bribery"

What the eye doesn't see, the heart doesn't grieve over ! And the bribery would have to be on a massive scale ("more than me job's worth"). All the objects so far mentioned have been of relatively small value. De minimis non curat lex. You wouldn't let a car in....D.

Cheers, all. Danny.

Union Jack
19th Feb 2014, 16:04
Quite close to the truth - Fareastdriver

Very interesting - on the odd occasion that we have had delayed luggage from overseas subsequently delivered by white van man, all locks and ties have been intact. However, just think how closely HMC might have examined your bags if they had indeed to be rerouted to ABZ from ADN! :=

Jack

PS Yes, I did have to look it up ....

MPN11
19th Feb 2014, 16:06
Do they still say 'If I were you I'd wear that watch and then it's second hand'?
Doesn't work with digital ones, though.


(Solar topee, umbrella and rickshaw)

Fareastdriver
19th Feb 2014, 16:19
rerouted to ABZ from ADN!


Well spotted; silly mistake.

Protection of a designer's IP is important

I would agree with that IF the working conditions and T&Cs for the girls producing the kosher kit are superior to what the girls producing the fake stuff are: They are not.

Wander00
19th Feb 2014, 19:27
As an RCT TA Movements Officer I worked both Felixstowe and Harwich. On more than one occasion someone in a Service unit would start arguing with a Customs Officer, which was the cue for my WO to suggest "Tea, I think, Sir".


A Royal Artillery unit thought they were in the clear when the Customs guy asked for the gun barrels to be depressed - "and no cushions please gentlemen", and oh the stench of whisky and looks of anguish as the barrels emptied. On another occasion an RAF Regt unit was left with 3 DIY kits for Land Rovers.

Danny42C
19th Feb 2014, 21:08
Morning came clear and bright. After exchanging our remaining Dm into sterling, and topping-up with the maximum that Lloyds would cash a cheque (+ F1250) for, we noticed that the pattern of our notes had been changed while we'd been away. This was interesting, but seemed a matter of no particular concern.

Now there was one which was ! It was well known that our Forces going out to Germany had, as a rule, no difficulty in changing to drive-on-the-right. And indeed, one of our chaps going home had said: "from now on, I'll never be nervous of driving on the Continent again". Most people would agree. The danger came in the first few days after coming back, when you dropped your guard, and the habits drilled into you in the past two or three years were too strong; and......!!

Of course, we'd all been warned of this: I gingerly hugged the left verge as we set out for Yorkshire. The last tankful of coupon German litres was running low, it had to be replaced by British gallons at an horrific price. On the way up north, only a few motorway-standard bypasses (Doncaster was one) formed a welcome relief from the old Great North Road ("Little North Road" said the cynics) as it meandered along through town after town. After the autobahnen, now we wouldn't have been surprised if we'd met Dick Turpin and Black Bess on the road.

It may be worthy of remark that I can remember (admittedly in earlier years) at least one spot (about half-way up) on the old A1 where there were still level-crossing railway gates across the premier road of the kingdom. The traffic just piled up and waited patiently while Puffing Billy hauled a load of wagons across at walking pace. On the other hand, there were plenty of big roadside pubs (the "Ram Jam Inn" in Rutland comes to mind), and no lack of greasy-spoon trucker's "caffs".

Somewhere in the midlands, we stopped at a hotel for lunch. Fifty miles further on, I suddenly said: "I'm beginning to think I may've been short-changed". But back-tracking was out of the question, the object was to get home ASAP. At dusk we did just that.

Needless to say, we were greeted rapturously by Iris's mother and the rest of the family; Mary (now approaching her third birthday) was the centre of attention. "Sally" had not forgotten us, and fell upon us in such a paroxysm of doggy delight that we were in danger of being licked to death.

Later in the evening, when things had calmed down a bit, I counted my remaining cash. Knowing exactly how much I'd started with that morning, it wasn't hard to work out how much our lunch had cost us. It was clear that we'd been "done" to the extent of £5 or £10 (can't remember now). Obviously I'd tendered a £20 note and got change for £10 (or £10 and £5) - multiply by 21 for today's price. More than we cared to lose.

A last, thin chance remained. I had the hotel bill in my pocket, so I had the phone number. Had an error been noticed ? Was the till £5 (or £10) "up" ? "Sorry, sir, but..." Of course, it might have been an honest mistake, but I doubt it. The notes were unfamiliar (changed colours ?). Had I got "87 EXT" on the car (as I've said a Post or so ago). Or was I still running on "LP 97 B" (there would have bound to have been a period of grace). A family busy with a small child, in a car (then) of a type almost unknown in UK, with "furrin" plates - I was an obvious "mark".

I had to be more careful in future. But I could not but think of the irony of the situation. For 2½ years we'd travelled and shopped in Holland, Germany and Austria (in three currencies), and never knowingly been short-changed, even in the early days when (helpless) we'd had to spread a handful of strange coins on the counter for the shopkeeper to help himself. And now this - on our first day back home ! But, thank God, we were home again.

Good night, all.

Danny42C.


East, West, Home's best !

ricardian
19th Feb 2014, 23:28
Whenever I return to the UK from an overseas tour (in the 1960s & 1970s) my final pay was always in British notes. What a mixture you got as the accounts officer cleared out his stock - Bank of England, Royal Bank of Scotland, Clydesdale Bank, British Linen Bank and a host of other obscure (but valid) UK banks.

Fareastdriver
20th Feb 2014, 09:30
My family and I returned from a three year tour in Singapore on the same day that the UK went decimal. For us it was easy, having been used to dollars and cents. However, it was unbelievable how confused the general run-of-the mill British population was.

Warmtoast
20th Feb 2014, 11:36
Danny42

a handful of strange coins on the counter for the shopkeeper to help himself

Way back in the sixties before the advent of the Euro, the Lire reigned supreme in Italy, so much so that there were about 1,700 Lire to the £ Sterling - a ridiculous "Micky Mouse" exchange rate.
My kids loved it when we were on holiday in Italy because the shopkeepers rather than give 12 or 20 Lire in change put a couple of sweets in lieu on the counter, so the kids were forever sucking away at these "free" to them, Italian sweeties and were forever asking "Dad can we go shopping please!" knowing they come away with a handful of "free" unplanned sweets.

Fareastdriver
20th Feb 2014, 14:17
In Bahrain in the early sixties I changed some Sterling into Maria Therasa Thalers. Armed with these I went down to the Souk and got a massive dicount on a very attractive certified gold necklace.

Warmtoast
20th Feb 2014, 17:15
I went through Sana'a in the 70's and whilst there picked up a some Maria Theresa Thalers. ISTR that at the time Thalers were legal tender in Yemen and in the market enterprising stall-holders had silver-soldered bits of cut off coiled-spring curtain track (as used to hang curtains on kitchen doors) to the top of the Thaler as a loop through which to thread a neck chain.

The one shown in my photo makes a chunky necklace which my wife wears occasionally.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/FourTogether2_zps03c7237c.jpg


Thalers bearing the date 1780 are not worth much, too many were made including many made by the London Mint.

FWIW the Maria Theresa thaler bearing the date of 1780 is a "protected coin" for the purposes of Part II of the UK's Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981. Quite interesting in view of the discussion above about counterfeit goods as The Act makes counterfeiting legal as long as it's done by the government!

Danny42C
20th Feb 2014, 17:54
Fareastdriver,

Your: "unbelievable how confused the general run-of-the mill British population was".

Some of us are still confused yet ("I'll never get used to this Toytown money !"). And some were not confused at all, but spotted a business opportunity.

The very next day, our little supermarket in Thirsk had priced-up a packet of "Jaffa cakes" (to which I'm extremely partial) from 9d to 9p (hoping no one would notice). 240% mark-up. Nice work if you can get it ! They call it "business acumen". I call it daylight robbery.

"Certified gold necklace"...Certified by whom ? (Or am I a suspicious old git ?). The Maria Theresa Thaler is a fascinating story in its own right, but I'm surprised the Hong Kong silversmiths hadn't got in on the act by then and supplied a convincing replacement with slightly less silver in the mix. (I've read that a goodly proportion of the pound coins now in circulation - just ain't pound coins !)....D. :(

Warmtoast,

I would think your Italian shopkeeper was onto a good thing. I'd wager that the sweeties were not worth the 15-20 lire ! And he was making sure of customer loyalty, too. Good move !...D.

EDIT: Lovely pics ! And 'tis true: if you ran a Ponzi scheme like National Insurance you'd be up at the Old Bailey pronto. About '50, the late Aneuran Bevin put it neatly: "The secret of the National Insurance Fund is - there ain't no Fund !" (Mr Madoff can explain further, if you can get in touch).

And if you went gaily printing and issuing money with no backing you'd be in the Tower. But if you're the Governor of the Bank of England, it's "Quantitative Easing", you see - so that's all right, then.

Cheers, both. Danny.

Fareastdriver
20th Feb 2014, 19:06
Certified gold necklace"...Certified by whom

I will give the young lady who got it a Certificate of Competance.

Interesting this decimalisation lark. Australia and South Africe went for 10 shillings as the datum for the new Dollar or Rand. It was easy, really, as all the existing coins but the penny were a decimal ranging from 5% to 25%. It also got them out of the Sterling Area so they were in control of their own currency. New Zealand and Rhodesia followed and in my experience a year or so before the changeover coins had both currencies stamped on the back, ie 2/- 20c. Pennys increased in value by 20% until new ones were minted but with the number in circulation it wasn't worth bothering about.

The Brits went for the Pound, the biggest unit of currency in the world and then they had to change ALL the coinage overnight. The cynic would argue that the reason they kept the original pound was because of the hordes tucked away in the Indian sub-continent and it was better for them to continue to be tucked away and therebye save the Bank of England the embarrassment of having to redeem them.

IIRC there was also a major spike in inflation when it happened.

Union Jack
20th Feb 2014, 21:03
Australia and South Africe went for 10 shillings as the datum for the new Dollar or Rand. It was easy, really, as all the existing coins but the penny were a decimal ranging from 5% to 25%. It also got them out of the Sterling Area so they were in control of their own currency.

Interesting, considering that today's tourist exchange rate for £1 is $A1.86 and RSA18.6 with the former exceeding the latter by a factor of 10.

Jack

Wander00
20th Feb 2014, 21:14
Yes, and I am visiting South Africa in just over a month -unbelievably cheap in UK prices for the various accommodation and tours. Hope I might see the Lightning in the air

Union Jack
20th Feb 2014, 22:36
Hope I might see the Lightning in the air.

Donner und Blitzen! There's certainly plenty of lightning in the air right now in SA, and I hope you will see the Lightning too.

Jack

Danny42C
20th Feb 2014, 22:37
Fareastdriver,

Relying purely on my fuzzy memory of those days, I think that Sir Edward Heath, who was a keen proponent of Britain joining the Common Market, seeing the main obstacle (de Gaulle) removed at the close of the '60s, determined to go ahead. With the projected "euro" in mind, it would also be necessary first to decimalise our currency to bring it into line with those of the other members.

(VAT would also need to be introduced in all the CM states to make the system work - as the amount each "paying-in" member had to put "in the kitty" was some small percentage of its VAT "take" - this being a very rough indicator of its relative prosperity).

So our £-s-d, which somehow traced its source back 4,000 years to the ancient Sumerians and their 60-based system (we have in our clocks and navigation still), and as 12 and 20 are factors of 60, had to go; it duly went in early '71 - and the rest we know.

(VAT was introduced under the '72 Finance Act, but it did not "bite" till '73) .

As for India, it may be so, but I would think that they were more likely to go for gold (as they've always done) to hoard (not a bad idea, as it has proved). If they had stashed away large sums in sterling, it doesn't seem to have done them much good; the Indian Rupee is around 90:£ (Pakistan 120:£); when British India ended in '47 it was 14:£.

Yes, there was an inflation "bubble" at the same time (but which caused which ?) cf my tale of the humble "Jaffa cake".

Now bear in mind that I'm a Sciolist par excellence, it's all IIRC and AFAIK, and I am not to be quoted as an authority for any of this. With this disclaimer -

Danny.

Chugalug2
21st Feb 2014, 07:16
Danny:-
(VAT was introduced under the '72 Finance Act, but it did not "bite" till '73) .I PVR'd in '73, and first priority was to obtain a civvie instrument rating to change my CPL (licensed to carry fare paying pax in the Chipmunk T21!) to an ATPL. Following well trodden footsteps I contacted Swindon Labour Exchange to apply for TOPS, the Training Opportunity Scheme, a splendid idea by which anyone could have the entire cost, of becoming say a Brain Surgeon, paid by HMG. I told them I wanted to become an Airline Pilot and could they pay for my IR? No they said, as the scheme had just been stopped as it had become far too costly, strangely.
So I pitched up at Kidlington realising that the gratuity that a grateful nation had just thrust into my hands (and that was all it thrust, ie no pension) would have to be spent there. Day one and a session in the Link Trainer. Get out and asked to sign the first of many bills.
"What's this?"
"Oh that's the new VAT, but don't worry as educational establishments are exempt. We have only to get our status confirmed as such and it will be refunded".
They never did, and I never was.
How I larfed...

Fareastdriver
21st Feb 2014, 09:26
when British India ended in '47 it was 14:£.


Now that rings a bell.

Exercise Shiksha was a Javelin deployment to India in October 1963 and I was a co-pilot on a Valiant tanker crew that was flight refuelling them via Cyprus and Bahrain. Before we left we were issued with our LOA. R9/day. One of our number who had left India in 1947 told us that was what it was when he left. Because of the currency restrictions, only change £10 and have it stamped on your passport, we were given Indian rupees at R14/£. The official rate had also not changed since 1947.

You cannot blame the Air Force, there wasn't a lot of call for LOA etc, during the intervening years.

One of our number went sick in Bombay and a replacement had to be flown out. Owing to the urgency he was sent out with his LOA in Sterling. He was gettin R150 for a fiver.

mmitch
21st Feb 2014, 11:11
All these exotic exchange rates. I used to have trouble changing my Scottish banknotes for English ones in the 60s. :confused:
Might happen again?

mmitch.

ricardian
21st Feb 2014, 11:32
Try getting a Scottish £50 note changed in England!

MPN11
21st Feb 2014, 12:03
I have heard that Jersey notes are now proving difficult to exchange in UK, even at Banks. Rather unsporting, as we allow UK ones to circulate freely here.

There is a small risk that we shall have to invade to restore the situation, as we did in 1066 under the leadership of our then Duke William (Guillaume?). Anyway, that one - The Bas**rd.

Danny42C
21st Feb 2014, 22:16
Chugalug,

Your: "What's this?"......."Oh that's the new VAT, but don't worry as educational establishments are exempt. We have only to get our status confirmed as such and it will be refunded". They never did, and I never was".

My fading memory of C&E "Liability Notes" (several bulky and heavy volumes, which I'd to carry round in a case * with me) is that they were correct. Doubtless the firm would have submitted a claim for repayment if Output Tax had been collected in "error" (from you) - firms never missed that trick - and in any case the "error" should have been detected and rectified on the next regular VAT Inspection.

Now if this money was not then returned to you, it is plain theft and a criminal offence. Get on to your Local VAT office (it'll be in the phone book). Copy this letter to them if you wish.

Now if the situation is as I surmise, and you have documentary evidence (invoices ?) to support what you've told me, and the firm (or its successor) is still alive, and you have their address and postcode (a PO Box is no good, as you cannot enforce judgment, and an amount less than £50 is more trouble and expense than it is worth), go for them in the Small Claims Court.

There must be legally qualified members reading this. I invite comment.

Also Google: "Money Claim Online (MCOL) is HM Courts & Tribunals Service Internet based service for claimants and defendants. Money Claim Online is a convenient and secure way of making or responding to a money claim on the internet. Before you begin using the 'Money Claim Online Service' please make sure you familiarise yourself with the following information: 'MCOL Guidance' ".

* Dropped the corner of said case onto my toe around '86. Big toe nail (Mk.II) just about recovered.....D.


ricardian,

Not so easy with a British £50 either (from all I hear), as they're treated with suspicion...D.


MPN11,

Twenty years ago spent a day or two in the Falaise "Ibis". Had a look at Duke Guillaume's castle (apparently he was as stated, illegitimate). But impressed above all with the quiet little church. In it was a memorial tablet to 300 civilian casualties from the'44 battle.

Wiki has some statistics: Population'36, 5,600 -'46, 4600 (18.6% fall). Same after WWI: (18.4% fall beteen'11 to'21). I believe there were some 10,000 civilian casualties in and around the Cherbourg peninsula before and after "D" Day. The French bore us no grudge - C'ést la guerre.

We had our first taste of Krönenberg "1664" there. We were very hot and tired - pure nectar !...D.

Cheers, all. Danny.

Chugalug2
22nd Feb 2014, 14:57
Danny, your concern on my behalf is appreciated, but I don't think I was the subject of a scam, rather that 1st April 1973 was a most appropriate date for me to become a civilian!


Looking back I'm convinced that Kidlington (I won't mention the firm's name, but most will know them and of their high reputation in civil aviation training) thought that they would qualify for exemption as an educational establishment, hence the 'temporary' need only to levy the new tax. In retrospect they were wrong and I'm pretty sure they ruefully admitted as much when I departed them clutching my new IR. Luckily the investment paid off anyway, as I managed to get a job with Dan-Air within the month, and I was soon able to become more philosophical about having to subsidise HMG rather than vice versa...

thing
22nd Feb 2014, 17:22
When I was a nipper in the late '50s we were touring around Wales on holiday. We were in the back of beyond and stopped to fill up the car (or rather have it filled for you which was how it was back then). My Dad asked the attendant to put £5 worth in. He filled up and Dad gave him one of the old white fivers. 'Oh, I'm sorry' says the attendant 'we don't take cheques.'

smujsmith
22nd Feb 2014, 20:25
Just a quick thought,today is an anniversary of sorts. Many moons ago on this day, our good mate Danny had his accident, I will be raising a glass of the "Scottish" brew this evening to thank the stars for his deliverance to these columns. Danny, happy anniversary for what its worth.

Smudge :ok:

Danny42C
22nd Feb 2014, 20:39
Chugalug,

Fair point. It would seem that my recollection of the VAT liability position is incorrect. Probably the deciding factor could have been that they were a profit-making educational body. (I think the same is true of medical services). I stand corrected !

However, the princely salary that you doubtless enjoyed from Dan-Air soon soothed your chagrin over the scam (if scam it was) that the Educational Establishment we all know had practised on you....D.

thing,

He might have been wiser than he knew. The Nazis had collected all the best engravers available (including some sifted out from concentration camps) to produce very convincing forgeries indeed of the old white notes. These were mass-produced in bulk. The idea, of course, was to destroy the international standing of sterling.

I'm not sure how this could be done - you could hardly scatter them from the air over Britain - but perhaps they could be used on a large scale for trade with neutral countries; when they were eventually returned to the UK, the Treasury would have to honour them as genuine and stand the loss of foreign currency involved.

Wiki has the whole story. I'm amazed that the notes were legal tender as late as'61. To this day there are dark tales of containers of millions of them still at the bottom of Bavarian and Austrian lakes....D.

Smudge,

Thanks ! It was the 24th, actually, 70 years ago. But now you can all charge your glasses (sadly [liar] not at my expense !) and join me in celebration of my miraculous survival that day. "The Devil looks after his own" (did I hear someone murmur ?)....D.

Cheers, all. Danny.

smujsmith
23rd Feb 2014, 17:21
Danny,

My apologies for preempting your prang. I did enjoy a drop in your honour last night, and now I know it's the 24th, I will see if SWMBO will allow me to mark the occasion on the appropriate date. I always find one needs a rehearsal before the big event :ok:

Smudge :\

Reader123
24th Feb 2014, 15:33
I suspect the statute of limitations will probably preclude the recovery of the missing VAT...

Danny42C
24th Feb 2014, 17:15
First, Disembarkation Leave (two weeks) to re-acclimatise ourselves with life in North Yorkshire (I stress "North" - and we didn't have central heating any more !) Then I had to report to Linton: to begin with I commuted from home (some 40 miles) until we could find a place in York. Linton was an AFS, so they ran a two-watch ATC system, similar to the one in force in Strubby.

I know I was commuting, for I was running South down the A19 to go on the afternoon watch when the oddest of all road incidents happened to me. It didn't deserve the term "accident" - "near miss" would cover it better. To set the scene then: straight (single) carriageway road, hardly any traffic, dry and sunny. However, the intention was to dual-carriage that stretch; for the purpose a strip of grassland had been appropriated (perhaps 30 yds wide), sloping gently down to my left. There it met a fairly solid hedge, parallel to the road.

So far, so good. About a half-mile ahead was a gentle climb. Over the brow on the other side came a furniture van and a "tail"of two or three cars, which had obviously been waiting for a safe opportunity to get past. First up was a Morris Minor (the well loved "Moggie"). There was all the room in the world, no problem.

But the Moggie panicked (probably spotted me for the first time when abeam the van), and yanked hard left across its bows to get back to the side. He overdid it, and had to yank right even harder to save running out of road (at this point I'm fairly sure I saw the back end twitch a bit).

Everybody else had the anchors on by now, for fear of what might happen next, and it was as well we had. His RH pull overshot (leaving him heading for me), next he snatched left really savagely to correct. This time he completely "lost" it. The Minor's back end broke away, the car spun left rather more than a quarter turn, flying backwards across the road about 20 yards ahead of me. :uhoh: It charged down the grassy slope and came to rest with the boot embedded in the hedge.

At this point I was driving past and had a glance at four (putty-coloured) faces. Two large middle-aged men in front, their even larger wives in the back, all looking somewhat alarmed. :eek: However as there was no reason to suppose injury, and the Minor should need little more than a back-end respray anyway (and I couldn't afford to be late on watch !), and seeing in my mirror that the van and another two cars behind had stopped to render assistance, I suppressed my Good Samaritan impulses and carried on to Linton. When I came back that evening, the Minor had gone. Whether it had got out under its own power, or been hauled out, I don't know.

Now I must tell you a strange thing. You might imagine that my memory for names, faces and of detail in general would improve as the intervening years lessen. The reverse seems to be the case. Perhaps this reflects the gradual onset of the "Short Term Memory Loss" syndrome (with which many of us are all too familiar).

I do not remember any names at Linton (nor for that matter in GK). Not the Stationmaster, nor the W/Cdr(A), with whom I had a lot to do, nor the RN Commander (Air), who (IIRC) replaced a W/Cdr(F), nor my SATCO, none of the other ATCs (some RN), nor our airmen. What I do remember is that Linton had a lot of RN (and one or two RM) student pilots. They flew Vampires (and I'm only fairly sure about that as we had Vampire fire hulks).

Now on all the Stations I'd been posted to since coming back post-war(excluding my training), I must have had a Subsidiary Duty (and of course, a Barrack Hut or Room to look after). For such is the inescapable lot of a Junior Officer. But other than Thornaby (where I was Mess "Wines Member" (aka Bar Officer), I cannot have been very assiduous in any of those Duties, as for the life of me I cannot remember what they were.

Apart from Linton. For I was summoned by W/Cdr (Admin), shortly after arrival, to be told that I was the Station Fire Officer, with immediate effect, and had better find out all about it ASAP (yesterday would do fine). This should prove interesting, I thought. :*

Evenin' all,

Danny42C.

"....and each man in his life plays many parts...." (Shakespeare - or as much as I can remember)

PS 1: Reader123, you're probably right. Is there a solicitor in the house ?....D.

PS 2: Smudge, Yup, today's the day !...D. (For those who have not read the gory details, main story is on Page 143 #2848, sequels on 144 #2866 and 146 #2908)...D.

pzu
24th Feb 2014, 17:25
I know the news has been posted elsewhere on 'PPRuNe', but I still feel it's worth a mention on this thread

RAF BBMF To Host Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum Lancaster During Visit To England (http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/raf-bbmf-to-host-canadian-warplane-heritage-museum-lancaster-during-visit-to-england-24022014)

Have also plugged the news on the 'Teesside Airport' (sorry DTVa thread) suggesting Peel might just do something in view it's Canadian Heritage & the Mynarski VC connection

PZU - OUt of Africa (Retired)

Danny42C
24th Feb 2014, 18:07
pzu,

Something to look forward to !

Perhaps they could work up a "Synchro Pair" ? :ok:

D.

Fantome
24th Feb 2014, 19:18
All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts . . .

they of course being seven by the Bard's reckoning

you nearly had it danny . . .. .you're in good company though .. . as misquotes of Shakespeare occupy chapters in books if not whole books. . .

you may not be able to come
up with the names of all those men you once knew well and served with . . . .
but what the F does that matter . . .. you do remember what's
important and what's worth the retelling . .. giving too your readers here much joy in the reading thereof

your morrie in the hedge story is another lovely minor classic (pun intended)
. . . .my mum's morrie had a dealer's transfer in the back window 'ANOTHER MORRIS' . . .. . which gran (mum's mum) got to with a razor blade so that it read HER MORRIS (for her licence test she had to do a hill start . . .move off from a standstill on a steep gradient with no slipping back whatever.. the testing man had put a matchbox jammed up against the rear of one of the tyres. . . his little party trick)

the late Ted Sly who flew with his life long friend Neville Duke in North Africa (92 east india sqn) pegged out last year at 94.. his memories of that campaign and others are graphically told in his book ''the luck of the draw'"

he used to tell us over and over i guess the last six years of his life the same stories again and again as if we had not heard them before.. . . but that was neither here nor there (though others might glaze over a tad) . . . as he always put so much energy into the telling ..
so glad to have run a tape for an hour or so one time when he was still as sharp as . . .

eg . . .. . ' we got to Rhodesia to start our basic training. one of the old hand RAF sergeants who had seen service for 20 years in Iraq and Egypt and god knows where else . . . had us lined up the morning after we got off the ship . .. . . 'what have we here' he says looking us up and down . . . ' another shower of **** from Australia' we soon sorted him out. It was he who described the sergeants mess as the holiest of holies . . .. . we had great trouble not falling about laughing .'

Ted paid the most heart felt of all his tributes to those who did the training .. . . to the old school staff instructors who instilled in the trainees the discipline and growing respect for it that as Ted said saved his life more than once during his war in England., north africa and the pacific

wonderful that for his funeral in Sydney the museum at Temora despatched their Mk VIII Spit to fly over the church as the mourners filed out.

as they did for Teds life long mate Bobby Gibbes five years previously

MPN11
24th Feb 2014, 19:35
For I was summoned by W/Cdr (Admin), shortly after arrival, to be told that I was the Station Fire Officer, with immediate effect, and had better find out all about it ASAP (yesterday would do fine). This should prove interesting, I thought.

Damn, damn and multiple damn ... because not doing the Fire Officer course cost me at least 2 interesting postings, and a couple of medals for "being there".

Danny42C
24th Feb 2014, 21:51
Fantome,

Thank you for your encouraging words, particularly your:

"....he used to tell us over and over I guess the last six years of his life the same stories again and again as if we had not heard them before...."

I hope this will not happen to me - but you never know !....D.

MPN11,

If I understand you correctly, it would seem that in later years the RAF adopted the novel idea of appointing Fire Officers only after they'd qualified on the Fire Course ! Such a logical procedure formed no part of the decision-making in former times. Pegs were rammed into holes regardless, round, triangular or square (on the whole * it worked out rather well, although I can see that in certain cases [pilots, for example] it might cause difficulty).

* (No pun intended).

As for the medals - think of it this way - you'd have two less to polish ! ("Silvo's" the stuff, for my money)..D.

Cheers, both. Danny

Pom Pax
24th Feb 2014, 22:57
There in the early '50's a stretch of the A1 around Stamford (I think North of) about 5 miles long on the West side of the single carriage way which was in a more advanced state of readiness than your stretch Danny.
Development varied between just fenced to several unlinked sections of 200 to 300 yards long completely surfaced. Apparently work had started in 1939 but had not yet recommenced.

Chugalug2
25th Feb 2014, 07:02
The A1 might have had a prodigious title in those days, The Great North Road, but it scarcely lived up to it save for the amount of traffic, particularly commercial, that it carried on its many single carriageway sections.


Four fellow Cranwell cadets, crammed into a Mini, were lucky to survive a head-on collision with a British Road Services lorry in the Stamford area. Those in the front were saved by the full harness Irving safety belts (a rare innovation back then), while those in the rear were at least restrained by the front seat backs not folding up with their occupants. As it was the engine moved aft into the passenger cabin. The upshot was a loss of aircrew status for at least one of them, but it could have been so much worse...


The Minor's party piece that you describe, Danny, must have greatly alarmed its occupants, but in its favour I would like to say that it was at least the overtaking vehicle in that case. How many of us have been stuck in a line of vehicles behind one, maintaining a steady 30mph on a clear unrestricted single carriageway road? Perhaps though it is a measure of the appeal the marque has to those who would do all their motoring at 30mph or less rather than of the car itself. If #2 is also of a similar disposition you are doomed to convoy with them until they finally go their separate ways. Better that than to try the desperate manoeuvre that you so vividly describe!

Danny42C
25th Feb 2014, 16:56
Pom Pax,

Your: "... Apparently work had started in 1939 but had not yet recommenced....". Nothing much has changed since......D.

Chugalug,

Your: "....Those in the front were saved by the full harness Irving safety belts (a rare innovation back then)...."

Yes, indeed. No doubt they were rather expensive to buy. But over on the far side of your field the Fire Section would have practice rescue hulks, it was a pity to see the four-point pilot harnesses burn with the dummy when a fire got the better of our brave lads (as did happen from time to time). They weren't guarded at night, you'd only need a pair of strong wirecutters.... How useful they'd be, and how nice they'd look in the cockpit of your TR3, MGB (dare I say Mini ?), etc.

Commander (Air) had really to hammer the table to discourage these endeavours !

Ah, the impetuosity of youth ! While I share with you your irritation at the mobile obstructions (mostly wearing flat-'ats - as indeed I do myself) that are an increasing feature of today's roads, demography points to an increase in their number as the years go by.

So, short of having a maximum age for driving licences (and I believe there are some centenarians who still have them), we have to put up with the old fellas yet. There are advantages. Consider:

Suppose your "open road" cruising speed to be V mph. Then the severity of the prang will relate to ½mV² - yes ? But your give-and-take average speed will be around 6√V mph. (Motorways: 7-8√V mph, according to traffic conditions.) Strange but true ! (Authority - 75 years driving experience). So twice as fast will give you four times the whack on the head :{, but you only cover 1.414 (?) times the distance on the ground :*. It's not a fair swap.

Festina Lente !....D. (hasten slowly)

Cheers, both. Danny.

Pom Pax
25th Feb 2014, 20:59
When I motored seriously I had 3 sets of full harness. Firstly a very crude and cumbersome type, IIRC of Britax origin. Then as my ambitions became more serious an Irving set.
Danny you have a suspicious mind!
No doubt they were rather expensive to buy. But over on the far side of your field the Fire Section..........
Yes they were more expensive but not that much more than Britax. The straps were softer than anything I have experienced before or since and release so simply, 1 finger flip. They had a 3 point anchorage which made life inconvenient for a back seat passenger and a single tensioner. For my navigator I had a conventional three point belt but still Irving, same release, same soft webbing and easy tensioner.
When I got very serious it was back to Britax, (I think Irving had gone out of the car market) reasonable but coarser harness, 2 tensioners and a more complicated release. Also no longer inconvenient for a back seat passenger but impossible! Of course the advancing commercialisation of motorsport did mean discounts and bonuses. However the left hand seat kept its comfortable Irving.

smujsmith
27th Feb 2014, 20:52
Danny,

Festina Lente (hasten slowly), does that equate to "hurry up and wait" ? An expression that seems to have been common through my career.

Smudge:ok:

Danny42C
27th Feb 2014, 21:00
First, you must Go on a Course, for it is a fixed belief in the RAF that anybody can do anything so long as they have Been on a Course. At that time the RAF Fire Service were based at RAF Catterick. I think the Course was for a fortnight, full time, so I must have been detached from Linton for the purpose.

Now from where did I commute ? I think that we were still in N.Yorkshire, for I remember the run across country to Catterick (30 mi) would take about 40 mins, and that seems about what I remember for the journey. We reckon that we stayed in Marton until the end of November, then decamped temporarily to the Westminster Hotel at Clifton (north end of York), for winter was coming (and what a winter it would prove to be !) and it was only 10 miles from Linton.

It was a cosy and comfortable little place (and we stayed almost to Christmas there). The first snows had come, and our next move was to a hiring in "The Paddock" a little cul-de-sac of semis out on the Boroughbridge Road in York. We were not far from a giant sugar-beet factory some way behind the houses. As the product is sugar, you might suppose sweet airs would always emanate from the place - well, they don't. But otherwise it was a fair enough spot; there were plenty of small shops nearby; York (about 4 miles) was handy enough for big shopping, besides being a fabulous piece of history to explore.

One journey of that time will live with me always. We wanted both our mothers and Iris's brother to spend Christmas ('62) with us in the Paddock, so I went across to the Wirral to bring mine. There had been a dump of snow, the Pennines were covered, but the lower main roads were clear and dry. My route I knew like the back of my hand - Liverpool, Preston, Skipton, Blubberhouses, Harrogate, York...... Easy.

I picked mother up, and started back in the sunny afternoon. Five miles short of Preston the screen went. There were no cars running ahead or oncoming past me - it couldn't have been a stone strike. It was very cold outside, the heater had been going full blast. Perhaps thermal stress ? But though all the screen was "crumbled", it held in place. Gingerly I poked out a hole about ten inches across, just enough to see through, and crept into Preston.

Halford's was not hard to find; celluloid sheet on the shelf (sidescreen and rear windows for the sidecars and sports cars of those days). Cut a piece to size with a wide overlap to cover the hole, sellotape to outside of screen, cup of tea, back on the road again. I was taking a chance that there would be no more rain or snow, for I daren't use the wipers.

We started to climb, soon it was white underfoot as I slowly and steadily weaved round the hill bends to the flat top of the Pennines. There was no traffic, it was full dark now and very lonely on the moors! At last we began to reach the long downhill straights into Harrogate, bright lights again, only twenty miles to go now. Piece of cake ! Gladstone Garages, Layerthorpe (Àgence Peugeot, York) put a new screen in, but I was finding bits of glass crumb in hidden corners of the car for ages. Then we had a lovely, happy Christmas !

There had been heavy snow over the holiday, but by now the "Winter of the
Century" ('62/'63) had all Britain in its grip. A giant "high" was stationary over the British Isles, for about six weeks the temperature in the NE didn't rise above freezing day or night. Birds froze to the branchs in the trees. The earth was iron-hard, you couldn't get a spade into it to raise a root vegetable (we had a back garden full of parsnips, but could hardly get one out). The only saving grace was: there was some thin sunshine and little or no wind.

Ironically, if there had been wind-farms at that time, you wouldn't have got a single Kwh out of any of them - (with the load on the grid at its peak - our house was crammed with electric fires). No one who lived through that winter will ever forget it.

We were there till early summer, then a MQ was offered to us - at Breighton ! This was right out in the wilds, some 15 mi SE of York. An old bomber station, it had enjoyed a brief new life as a Bloodhound site until they finished, too. But in that time they'd built one OMQ - a S/Ldr's house for the CO - and when he went the house was dumped on Linton to look after. But being at the back of beyond, it had found no takers.

We had a look at it, and reasoned thus: Mary had only just turned three; schools were not a pressing problem. It was very quiet, about a mile outside Bubwith village. There was no traffic. Mary had graduated to her first "proper" bike (on stabilisers !) by then. The house had plenty of room, and a big garden surrounded by farmland. York was only 30 minutes away, Selby in easy reach. We decided to take it.

Next time I really must say something about the Fire Course and (what was it, now ?)...... Oh yes - Linton-on-Ouse !

Good night, all,

Danny 42C.


"Let Nothing ye Dismay"

PS: Smudge, I suppose "Take your time" or "Don't hurry" would be about right. Danny.

Union Jack
27th Feb 2014, 22:50
Now why does the expression "festina lente" remind me of the story of the young bull and the old bull?:(

Jack

smujsmith
27th Feb 2014, 23:09
Ha haa Jack, the expression might remind you of bulls because its an oxymoron ( Ox ?).

Smudge :ok:

Danny42C
27th Feb 2014, 23:51
Union Jack and Smudge,

UJ, might that be the one which ends : "Let's stroll across and have the lot ?"....D.

Smudge,

You're right about the oxymoron, of course, but the "ox" connection is a new one on me. Highly ingenious for all that ! What UJ and I are thinking about (if I'm right) concerns the Desirability of Conservation of Energy...D.

Time for bed. Cheers, both. Danny.

smujsmith
28th Feb 2014, 17:43
Sorry Danny,

Just a pun on UJs reference to bulls, I assumed that Oxen males were also called bulls, therefore Oxymoron (Ox). Must brush up on my knowledge of cloven footed beasts. Meanwhile, back to the fray !!!

Smudge :ok:

MPN11
28th Feb 2014, 18:33
Danny42C, 63/64 was foul as well ... I was at BRNC at the time, and found myself in sick bay for some reason. Mates were coming in from 'Leadership' exercises (aka 'Survival', as there were never any DS present to assess any form of leadership) on Dartmoor with frostbite. Nicely timed sickness, whatever it was! :cool:

However, I jump ahead. Apologies.

Union Jack
28th Feb 2014, 22:10
Danny

"Let's stroll across and have the lot?"

It certainly might!:D

Smudge

Oxymoron/Meanwhile, back to the fray !!!

Very good/Presumably Fray Bentos in this case?:hmm:

Jack

Danny42C
28th Feb 2014, 22:14
Smudgsmith,

Now no "Sorry" about it, Smudge. In fact it illustrates that you have the aptitude for lateral thinking that enables people to breeze through the D.T. crossword in half-an-hour.

Now I am sure that Union Jack (if asked nicely) will tell the tale of "The Old Bull and the Young Bull" for the edification of you youngsters. UJ, isn't it marvellous how the passage of time now enables us to retell all our old jokes and tales to a fresh audience ?....D.

MPN11,

Again, no apology necessary ! Indeed it confirms my recall of the weather on an occasion (to be related in a not-so-distant Post) when my "Isetta" exchanged fisticuffs with a RAF J2 van (but that, as they say, is a Story for Another Day).

I've always thought that a Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Military Cadets should have been formed long ago (but I managed to dodge that column). ;) Your DS should have demonstrated leadership and got frostbitten with you !...D.

Back to the nitty-gritty next Post. Cheers, Danny.

PS: Crossed in the Post, UJ !

ricardian
28th Feb 2014, 22:42
This may (or may not) brink back some memories

https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/t31/1957834_3942665302476_805062210_o.jpg

Danny42C
1st Mar 2014, 01:07
ricardian,

This is more like it (shamelessly lifted from "The Decca Legacy").

6.2. TYPE 424 (AIRFIELD CONTROL RADAR)

The 424 Airfield Control Radar was designed in 1952 to meet an RAF requirement for an ‘Approach Radar’. It was designated by the RAF as the ACR7D (note that Cossor also produced a radar to meet the requirement and their equipment was designated the ACR7C. It is thought that only 6 systems of this type went into service). Operating at 3cms wavelength (X-band) the first version used a 14ft. single curvature antenna fed by a ‘hoghorn’. Later versions (including the Circular Polarisation variant) used an antenna curved in both planes, but each plane following the same mathematical law, which in the profession is known as ‘an orange peel reflector’ (as against a ‘double curvature’ reflector which follows differing mathematical laws in the vertical and horizontal) and was fed by a horn. The antenna was mounted on a transmitter box (housing 2 transmitters), which in turn was mounted on a turning gear (shades of the Type 159 marine radar from which it was derived). The 20Kw transmitter operated with a pulse length of either 0.1 or 0.5 microseconds at a prf of 1000pps. The PPI displays were of the 12inch rotating coil type similar to those used in the Type 45 Marine Radar. Both mobile and transportable versions were produced.
The mobile version was mounted on a ‘Karrier’ (Rootes Group) ‘Gamecock’ chassis, which had quite small road wheels to minimise the overall height. Two models only were produced. One painted in red and white stripes as a demonstrator for the UK market, it became a general trials vehicle. The other, painted yellow for export demonstrations, was eventually sold to Argentina.
The transportable version used an aluminum cast pedestal, with outriggers giving stability to the antenna and turning gear. The Displays, the Control Panel and the two Receiver Units were mounted on a folding table in the operations room/cabin.
http://woottonbridgeiow.org.uk/decca-legacy/images/p21.jpg
http://woottonbridgeiow.org.uk/decca-legacy/images/p22.jpg
In the mid 1950’s a 424, of the Airfield Control type, was sold to the Vickers Aircraft Company and was installed at their test airfield at Wisley in Surrey.
TYPE 424 Airfield Control Radars were supplied to over 45 Civil and Military Authorities, a quantity of 22 in the UK and others to countries such as India, New Zealand, Ceylon and Brazil. Total sales were approximately 125.
http://woottonbridgeiow.org.uk/decca-legacy/images/p23.jpg
This is much like what I remember of the inside of our van (which IIRC looked like the back half chopped off the mobile above).

I can only remember one tube (not sure which one). But it was 50 years ago, and memory fades. :confused:.........D.

dogle
1st Mar 2014, 09:56
I enjoyed the BBC radio interview, broadcast 0930 today, with North Yorkshire author and WWII Lancaster pilot Bill Spence, marking his nomination for a literary award. He sounded very fit, and like one who might really enjoy popping into this unique crewroom if some Nav could point him in the right direction.

Unfortunately Ampleforth is way out of range for me ....

Wander00
1st Mar 2014, 15:39
I recall that sadly a cadet on 89 Entry, Martin Barents, lost his life when a "cadet" car came off the Ancaster road just off the A! near the chip factory. After that all cadet owned cars of whatever age (and however difficult it was) had to have seat belts fitted.


PS - Anyone know why the 69 Entry web site has stopped working. I am sure it was OK last week - seems OK again tonight (Sunday)

Danny42C
2nd Mar 2014, 02:49
For some time past I've been pointing a few of my friends in the direction of PPRuNe and this Thread, particularly recommending (on a paper slip) two or three of particular interest (as I thought).

It now seems that the Thread Pages and/or Post Numbers I quoted have been amended by PPRuNe as follows:

[Page/Post Number]

For 113/2250 (my first Post) read 114/2262.

For 128/2549 (video of VVs posted by Chugalug), read 129/2561.

" ...110/2200 (Blind Landing a Vulcan at LHR) posted by Padhist read 111/2212.

"... 143/2848, 144/2866 and 146/2908 (my write-off), read
......143/2860, 144/2878 and 146/2920.

" ....35/691 (Business Ethics) posted by regle, read 35/692.

Danny42C

PS: Other PPRuNers, check any Pages/Post Numbers you may have on record and intend to quote to third parties.....Anybody know why this happens ?...D.

Warmtoast
2nd Mar 2014, 15:31
Fasching or Karneval (Carnival)

Danny in his earlier missives above provided a good background to R.A.F. service life in Germany in the 1960’s. However he didn’t mention Fasching or Karneval (Carnival) that made for a refreshing change of mood for what we Brits perceived as the sometimes very serious disposition of many Germans in the towns and cities in the Rhineland and the ones we worked alongside at JHQ.

So the start of Lent next week reminds me of the habit in towns in the Rhineland to hold their carnival processions. In the big towns or cities such as Cologne or Dusseldorf Rosenmontag (Rose Monday) is the highlight of the German “Karneval” (carnival) season and is on the Monday before Ash Wednesday. Celebrations become quieter the next day, known as Veilchendienstag (“Violet Tuesday”, (Shrove Tuesday)), and end on "Aschermittwoch” (Ash Wednesday). Monchengladbach’s carnival procession titled Veilchendienstagszug (Violet Tuesday Train) traditionally takes place on the Tuesday and JHQ some other units in the area treated the day as a holiday so we all had the day off, which was ideal as the BFG School was closed too and the kids had the day off as well and were keen to participate in the celebrations.

Traditionally, as I recorded alongside the photos in my photo album, the 1973 carnival procession consisted of 80 floats, 30 marching bands, and 24 dance troupes. I took my kids and a couple of neighbours kids from our MG married quarter patch to enjoy the procession – forewarned that kids should have bags to catch the sweets (Kamelle) thrown from the carnival floats into the crowds lining the streets among cries of “Helau” or “Alaaf”. The kids were not disappointed and came back well laden. Mum was also rewarded because flowers (tulips) were thrown into the crowd too. As seen the kids were dressed and made up to blend in with the German crowd.

Many girls in the parade “Tanzmariechen” or “Funkenmariechen” (marching girls) wear a very fetching uniform styled outfit. This consists of a very short skirt copied from 18th Century designs. Originally worn as jacket and trousers the trousers evolved into a short dress with a pleated skirt and very frilly knickers (to maintain their modesty as they “high-kicked” their legs through town). A wig with braided pigtails was worn and on top of that a Tricorn hat. White boots finished off the outfit.

Many of the dancers (“fools”) perform energetic dances emulating St Vitus, whose name is given to the Monastery after which Mönchengladbach is named. The Monastery of St. Vitus is a large Roman Catholic Church / Abbey set high on a hill overlooking the town. The Karneval traditionally has floats of “fools” or troops of dancers who emulate St Vitus in their mad dancing. According to legend, if suffering from various ailments one would say a prayer to the early Christian martyr St Vitus, and your prayer would be answered. St Vitus is reputed to have miraculous healing powers especially for those suffering from seizures, epilepsy, rabies, Sydenham’s chorea (St Vitus Dance), bedwetting, and snakebite, he is also said to protect against lightning strikes, animal attacks and oversleeping! To add to his attributes he is the patron saint of pharmacists, innkeepers, brewers, wine makers, coppersmiths, dancers and actors.

As for military participation in the procession JHQ Rheindahlen was represented by a float as was 79 Sqn Royal Corps of Transport based at Ayrshire barracks in Moenchengladbach. 79 Sqn RCT was responsible for administering the British Military Train “The Berliner” that at the time ran through the Soviet Zone to Berlin, they were also responsible for the various military ambulance trains positioned in sidings at R.A.F. Wildenrath. The RCT “float” was appropriately in the form of a locomotive sporting a Union Jack.

Carnival preparations traditionally begin in November with the election of officials etc. to run the carnival. The carnival celebrations proper kick off just before Lent with the “Women’s Carnival” on the Thursday of the week before Ash Wednesday. This is a special day for women called “Altweiber” (Old Women) or “Weiberfastnacht” (Women’s Day). On this day women are allowed to kiss any man they like as long as they cut off his tie beforehand (Tip: Beware any mad-looking women wielding a pair of scissors!) unless of course you fancy the lady in question in which case wear a very old tie!

German friends tell me Weiberfastnacht has morphed into a more modern form as an excuse for the women to go out by themselves for a girl’s only night out, leaving the kids at home with their men.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/JHQ%20Rheindahlen/MG%20Karneval/JHQKarnivalFloat_zps3d2a4870.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/JHQ%20Rheindahlen/MG%20Karneval/KarnivalMG3_zpsa5c8206b.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/JHQ%20Rheindahlen/MG%20Karneval/KarnivalMG21_zpsb1a067bd.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/JHQ%20Rheindahlen/MG%20Karneval/KarnivalMG11_zps7faaf932.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/JHQ%20Rheindahlen/MG%20Karneval/KarnivalMG22_zpsd72d01b9.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/JHQ%20Rheindahlen/MG%20Karneval/KarnivalMG2_zps1a9e26f6.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/JHQ%20Rheindahlen/MG%20Karneval/KarnivalMG23_zps6ef83536.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/JHQ%20Rheindahlen/MG%20Karneval/KarnivalMG24_zpsa1833054.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/JHQ%20Rheindahlen/MG%20Karneval/KarnivalMG25_zpsdbe8c1d9.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/JHQ%20Rheindahlen/MG%20Karneval/KarnivalMG5_zpse38b2efa.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/JHQ%20Rheindahlen/MG%20Karneval/KarnivalMG10_zpsae967a78.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/JHQ%20Rheindahlen/MG%20Karneval/KidsampCarnival_zps1acf5b12.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/JHQ%20Rheindahlen/MG%20Karneval/Image16_zpsaa5cc051.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/JHQ%20Rheindahlen/MG%20Karneval/GirlsUniform_zps47d950c2.jpg

Danny42C
2nd Mar 2014, 19:28
Warmtoast,

Lovely pictures - takes you back ! I think the tricorn-hatted contingent were known as the Prinzengarde - the (Carnival) Prince's Guard - but am open to correction.

Trinken, Tanzen, Küssen, Cozen !

Thanks, Danny.

Danny42C
2nd Mar 2014, 22:19
At that time, RAF Catterick was still a working airfield, although mostly only communication types for the RAF Regiment depôt (but we had little to do with them), and from time to time ex-operational and transport aircraft were ferried in at the end of their working lives. I was always a bit sorry for these quite serviceable aircraft as they touched down for the very last time - they were destined to serve again, but only as fire rescue fuselages and at last, as fire hulks. Some crash carcases came in on low loaders (the "Queen Marys") - that wasn't so bad.

Of course, only the "proper" fire tradesmen on their Courses were allowed to practise on these, and not amateurs like us. There was a good deal of classroom work, most of which I've forgotten, but we must have been instructed in the chemistry of fires, much about the best methods of tackling the various kinds of fires, all about domestic fire extinguishers, fire hydrants (all I remember is that the big "T" keys worked the opposite way from the domestic tap), etc, etc.

The things I recall best were all on our practical training. Our fires were all small scale, a half-inch of avtur or avgas in a large drip tray, and we soon saw the importance of killing a fire before the container it was in (our tray or a wing or fuselage) gets hot, for when it rises to the flash point of the fuel, the fire will always strike back at you. It is not generally realised how dangerous petrol vapour really is, and how far it can travel. Nowadays the sight of a lit cigarette at a filling station would arouse instant horror and uproar, but a generation or two ago we were much more careless; people would puff their pipes, or have a cigarette stuck to the lip as they filled up, and no one would bother.

A never failing source of amusement (for the bystanders !) was the fireman's pole. It all looks so simple and easy when you see it done for real or on film, but when it comes to your turn to follow the instructor's demonstration, it's a different matter altogether ! Even a one-storey descent (and in some stations there are, I'm told, three or more floor descents), you're fifteen feet or more above ground - and you know what it's like at the top of the five-metre board for the first time.

In fact, when you step out into the void, inertia will hold you in position quite comfortably for the fraction of a second it takes to snuggle into your smooth 4-in pole and wrap your legs round it (these are your brakes, if you use ungloved hands for the purpose you'll likely get "pole burn"). But this is not natural; many a tyro, launching himself out at his pole with the courage of despair, has been known to suffer a broken nose, or lose a tooth as he goes at it like a bull at a gate.

Still more enjoyment (but not for the pretend "victim") may be derived from practice on a piece of life-saving equipment so good, so simple, so relatively cheap and so foolproof * that I wonder why fire safety regulations do not require it to be fitted under an external window sill on every floor of a multi-storey building above the first (and there's a case for that, too - many a house dweller has been overcome by smoke inhalation before someone can get a ladder up to the bedroom window).

It must have a trade name (but I don't know it). It works like this: you start with a man-carrying steel cable (or nylon would do, I suppose), the length of window sill to ground. A simple underarm strop is fixed to each end. The cable takes several turns round the wheel of a pulley anchored by a couple of feet of cable to a strong point under the inner sill. The pulley wheel has a centrifugal brake built in. (It's obvious now, isn't it ?).

Break out the kit, open the window, chuck out long end and strop, then the pulley block which will setlle just outside the sill. First out puts on strop and steps outside. Brake restricts him to something like parachute descent speed (10 ft/sec ?), though obviously the brake can be tailored to whatever speed you want. From a 100 ft building (say 8 stories), No.1's on the ground in 10 seconds, the other strop's up top, No.2 puts that on and away.

It works like a charm (I can vouch for that!): we had it at the top of the hose-drying tower (you mustn't put a hose away wet). Of course you must be careful to drop straight down, any attempt to launch off into space is going to swing you back hard against the wall. Even in the case of the eight storey building, no extendable turntable ladder could get up there, and if it could it couldn't take people out at anyway near the rate which this simple device can do.

One hazard remains, and we were explicitly warned of it. But there's always one who has to learn the hard way, isn't there ? You must watch your feet on the way down - for there's an empty strop coming up ! And it's coming up at 10ft/sec: you're going down at 10ft/sec, so...

He managed to get one leg in, the strop rode up (at about 14 mph, and he was a heavy chap): the resulting howl chilled the blood of all on the station and was heard in Catterick Village (over the other side of the old A1). Then he was trapped in the air midway; they had to lower a rope down to him so that he could hoist himself up a few inches to take the strain off the cables and enable him to get the leg free. After landing he waddled away rather stiffly, and was never the same man again (or at least not for quite a while !) :uhoh:

Moral: all of you young fellows, take heed of what your Instructor is telling you, and mock not his grey hairs, or the like may happen to you one day..

Goodnight, everybody.

Danny42C.


* "There is no such thing as a foolproof system - you only breed a new kind of fool".

Warmtoast
2nd Mar 2014, 22:52
Danny

Pulleys and ropes reminds me of The Bricklayer's Lament - by Gerard Hoffnung as told to the Oxford Union way back in 1958.
One of the funniest story's you're likely to hear. It can be found on YouTube here:
Gerard Hoffnung addressing the Oxford Union in 1958 - YouTube
The Bricklayer's story begins about 9 min 15 sec in.

But keep listening as there is another very funny story about the letter from a Tyrolean landlady responding to enquiries about accommodation in her hotel (starts at 18.30 in). Example: "We have a French Widow in every bedroom affording delightful prospects" etc. etc.

Danny42C
2nd Mar 2014, 23:14
Warmtoast,

Ta ! Will have a look tomorrow....Cocoa time now....Danny.

ancientaviator62
3rd Mar 2014, 08:08
When I was on Hastings I have a (very) vague memory of walking back to Wildenrath from a 'Rosen Montag ? night in Wassenburg. It was very cold and only the alcoholic antifreeze saved us ! Forgive the spelling.

Reader123
3rd Mar 2014, 09:44
That'll be a Davy descender. We had loads of them in College when I was an undergraduate. Crazy scary looking really. Couple of chums of mine managed to get a ride on one once when they came round to inspect it. A bit like throwing yourself out of a perfectly serviceable aircraft, why would you parachute for fun?

Are they made to be the right length so that they come to a stop just as your feet touch the ground? Don't you end up with broken legs?

Davy Descender - Descent-Controlled Escape System (http://www.safelincs.co.uk/davy-descender-descent-controlled-fire-escape/?fGB=true&gclid=CKyRgvOV9rwCFSn4wgodwlsAgg)

£500.

We had one in our room one year - fourth floor. But no training was ever given; can only imagine the carnage if they'd ever had to be used in anger. I'd always imagined a gentle descent, rather than parachute speed. And presumably your speed is dependent on your weight.

ricardian
3rd Mar 2014, 11:07
These photographs of a rusting trailer in a quarry in Malta were posted on Facebook recently and eventually identified as this (http://www.anti-aircraft.co.uk/radarNo4Mk7.html).

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t31/1912061_268601793303608_647172241_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t31/1511571_268601816636939_948825571_o.jpg

Danny42C
3rd Mar 2014, 18:24
Reader123,

So it's a Davy Descender ! (Isn't this the beauty of this - and all the other - PPRuNe Threads, that a fifty-year old question can be answered in a moment by Someone who Knows somewhere round the globe !) Thanks !

My recollection is that the line had a few feet of slack in it, so you landed at a parachute rate of descent, the object of the exercise being to get people out as fast as possible. Admittedly there might be a few broken ankles, but when the option was free-fall (as happened in 9/11), and the terminal velocity of the human body is about 176 ft/sec, it was acceptable.

Your: " presumably your speed is dependent on your weight." Not at all sure about that, I'd suppose that the brake would be effective at a given rpm and that any excess would prompt it to bite so much harder that any acceleration would be minimal. And then what about a small child coming down ? Would that be much slower ? (don't know).

The free-fall case was settled by one Galileo centuries ago, with the aid of the Leaning Tower of Pisa (IIRC).

I'm with you 100% in the matter of jumping out of a perfectly good aeroplane for no good reason. Utter folly !

Parachutists, step forward. Is 10ft/sec about right ?......D.


Warmtoast,

Marvellous story well told. However, one told in various forms many times before and since. Laurel and Hardy did it very well with a donkey as I recall, the animal ending up on a roof !.....D.


ricardian,

Could it just be......an old ACR7C with antenna squashed flat on top ? The caravan below looks much bigger than mine (air-con, Malta gets hot in summer ?). Did Luqa/Takali ever have an ACR7C, anybody know ?....D.

Cheers, all. Danny.

MPN11
3rd Mar 2014, 18:42
WOW ... a Malta relic. Could be ex-Hal Far of course.

Oh, please let them get that to the Aviation Museum at Ta'ali and do it up. Although they're submerged in work, and relics, and bits of kit. The volunteers there must have an horrendous time keeping it going.

there's a few pics of that Museum here ... Malta GC meets Sgt Braille | Holidays 4 Heroes (http://www.holidays4heroes.org/2009/06/27/malta-gc-meets-sgt-braille-3/)

ricardian
3rd Mar 2014, 18:45
Danny42C, its a "Radar No 4 Mk 7" (http://www.anti-aircraft.co.uk/radarNo4Mk7.html)

MPN11
3rd Mar 2014, 18:47
Air Traffickers retire to the Bar ... :cool:

Fareastdriver
3rd Mar 2014, 19:36
Mods. Could you shrink Richarian's pictures down a bit.