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clmh1949
6th Jul 2013, 22:38
Alec Hindley was my father. Could you please fill me in on your knowledge of his RAF career? Thank you Chris Hindley

Danny42C
6th Jul 2013, 22:42
Chugalug,

I never managed to "bring the House down" myself, but once an unfortunate Met man, having ended his spiel, chanced his arm and asked "Any Questions ?"

"Yes", said a Squadron Commander, "what are the conditions likely to be for upper-air work this morning ?" "Fine", said our chap, "no possibility of any vertical developments at all".

A deafening crack of thunder shook the crewroom before the words were out of his mouth. The room roared with laughter (he had the grace to join in !)

Danny.

kookabat
7th Jul 2013, 01:19
Looks like herding cats to me !
Feels like herding cats to me too sometimes!
Keep it coming Danny, I'm quite looking forward to hearing about earlier days in ATC. There's not much about it around. :ok:

Adam

BEagle
7th Jul 2013, 07:36
I never managed to "bring the House down" myself, but once an unfortunate Met man, having ended his spiel, chanced his arm and asked "Any Questions ?"

One cold winter day at RAF Brawdy, with the cloud brushing the chimney on the 'biscuit factory*' or US NAVFAC as it was properly named, we were all assembled in the cinema for the morning met brief...

The Met man's slides were ready on the OHP, when the Stn Cdr, a cheery fighter pilot, entered. "Morning, Met!", he began, "have some actual!". At which a threw a snowball at the Met man, which landed on the slides - which had been drawn with water-based lumocolor pens. The resulting mess did indeed bring the house down!

On another occasion, the Met man was asked if there was any risk of the rain turning to snow. "No chance", he confidently replied. The next question (from someone who, unlike the Met man, could see out of the window) was "What is the correct meteorological term for that fluffy white stuff which is falling out of the clouds?"

:uhoh:



* so named because it was commanded by a Captain Jacobs. A sneaky-beaky place, about whose purpose we weren't supposed to know - it was actually a (then) highly secret SOSUS submarine accoustic tracking facility.

Danny42C
7th Jul 2013, 16:10
clmh1949

Chris, Welcome aboard PPRuNe!

Alex Hindley (Squadron Leader A.R.Hindley from the signatures in my logbook) was my "Boss" as the O.C. 20 Squadron at Valley from March '50 to September '51. I am fairly sure he had the AFC, but would not swear to it. He was a very good Boss and well liked.

After that I have no direct knowledge, but a friend on 20 Sqdn, Flt.Lt. Niel (sic) Ratan Ker, with whom I kept in loose touch until his death in 2010, informed me that he left the RAF as a Wing Commander. He then (according to Niel, who went back out there several times) "went out to India and did very well". Other PPRuNers may be able to fill spaces in your jigsaw.

There is more, but it does not concern his RAF Career, and it is second-hand from Niel, and is not suitable for open Post in any event. If you send me a Private Message, I can tell you the gist of what Niel told me, but remember it is hearsay , would not stand up in Law and there are no names, so it can only be of interest.

Danny42C

clmh1949
7th Jul 2013, 23:27
Dear Danny, thank you so much for your reply. my personal email is [email protected]. Yes Dad did get AFC and in1959 the OBE. He went out to India with Greaves Cotton and years later started his own Company, India Continental Aviation. Where he was very successful in representing British Aerospace Co's in India. It is my belief that the pioneering work he did, set British Military Aerospace on a very good footing in India. He would have been very disappointed to see Dassault win the Fighter contract recently awarded by India. He was a good man and always a gentleman as you remember him. Please send me you direct email and we can chat. Kind Regards Chris

smujsmith
9th Jul 2013, 17:57
I once had the great pleasure of a 12 hour flight in one of Her Majesties Shacklebombers from RAF Lossiemouth. I somehow managed to scrounge the trip whilst up there fixing a bent Hunter, anyway I digress as usual! I met this chap in the mess the night before the flight, who it appeared was to fly on the same patrol. After a few refreshing "half and halves". He explained he was from the Met Office doing a study into Cu. clouds. He hoped to get some good sightings, but, "didn't travel well". We did the full 12 hours, North Sea mostly, a fly past at Church Fenton ISTR. I took loads of photographs of Cu's for the met man, he spent most of his time being friendly with a honk bag !!! What a great aircraft, crew, and poor old Metman. Graham was his first name, if he ever made it to military forecasting, I doubt he scrounged trips !!!

Smudge :ok:

Petet
9th Jul 2013, 19:02
Just thought that I would record that I spent an excellent day at RAF St Athan today to celebrate its 75th year.

It was here, at 4 School of Technical Training, that 22,599 Flight Engineers, including my partner's grandfather (who was KIA in 1945), received their Ab Initio Training.

Another trainee was, of course, the originator of this great thread and many of Cliff's postings record his time there, enabling the memories of St Athan to live on.

Regards

Pete

Danny42C
9th Jul 2013, 20:14
There's a lot more about the Tower to come!" (I said). But before I start my story about individual incidents in my years as a Controller, and in response to kookabat's suggestion in #3992 p.200, I think it might be helpful to hear my general recollections of the history of aerodrome Air Traffic Control from the "worm's eye" point of view. All this will be entirely from memory, I do not intend to check it against Wiki or anywhere else. If other authorities contradict me, so be it, (but remember the tale of the Bahia Route March).

"The Toad beneath the harrow knows
Exactly where each toothpoint goes".

Once upon a time there were 'Watch Offices' on (almost all grass) 'aerodromes'. In these dwelt a Watchkeeper, commonly the Duty Pilot, furnished with a telephone, a stub of pencil, a school notebook, binoculars and (if he were lucky) a Verey pistol and an Aldis lamp. He would be unlikely to have radio.

He logged down all arrivals and departures, but did very little else. Outside the building there would be a board bearing the name of the place and perhaps the AMSL. Lower down, a sign would read "VISITING CAPTAINS REPORT HERE", which made you feel very important on arrival after climbing out of your puddle-jumper.

If he did have a Crash Vehicle (pensioned off fire engine) and an ambulance on tap (and this was by no means always the case), he would be responsible for unleashing them if required. Aircraft came and went as they pleased without reference to him: he had no control over them.

Time passed, War came and the pace quickened. Now the school notebook was replaced by a blackboard on the wall behind him on which his minions chalked up the T/Os and landings (and they also made the tea, and so a great tradition was born). He kept a log; he would, with luck, have radio contact with aircraft similarly equipped, and he controlled the airfield lighting (usually a row of goosenecks). Aircraft came and went on operations or training flights as they pleased without reference to him; he would "count them out and count them back in": but he had no control over them.

My experience of the subject so far ends with my departure for India in September '42, but I understand that, as war progressed, aids were devised to assist returning aircrews, and he had a more important part to play from then on. Manual D/F operators passed bearings to him by land line, 'ZZ' procedure was an early form of QGH, SBA and TBA came in, and other clever ideas like EUREKA/BABS. He had a finger in all these pies and called himself a Flying Control Officer: but in fact he had little actual control over the aircraft.

Air Traffic Control in India and Burma during the war (from the military aspect) is a simple story: there wasn't any.

On my return to the RAF in July '49, I found that the "Flying Control Officer" was no more. The Twin Winged Lords of the Air had objected to the title on the logical ground that they alone were responsible for the safe operation of their aircraft, and certainly would not cede any authority to some wingless wonder in an overgrown Wendy house on the side of the airfield. He had to be content with the title of "Air Traffic Control Officer", the TWLOTA reluctantly accepted this. The RAF had a new Branch.

(More on this to follow next time).

Cheers,

Danny42C


They also serve who only stand (or sit?) and wait.

Icare9
9th Jul 2013, 23:27
No more posts please until Danny has the 4,000 posting himself!
For starting this thread, for those that continued to breathe life into it, the honour should be Dannys

To you all, I salute you!

Danny42C
10th Jul 2013, 12:56
Icare9,

How can I resist such a generous and graceful offer ? Thank you, Kevin, and all the other supporters and helpers who have made my task so much more enjoyable these last eighteen months.

Roll on 5,000 !

Danny.

smujsmith
10th Jul 2013, 13:56
Well done Danny,

I expect you will be posting 5000 too. I certainly hope to be reading your #5000. Keep going only a thousand to go.

Well 999 :rolleyes:

Smudge

Chugalug2
10th Jul 2013, 14:45
Danny:-
Roll on 5,000 !

Indeed Danny and as Smudge says, it has a "Reserved" ticket on it in your name. It is for we all to thank you for your entertaining yet detailed account of all your yesterdays. I couldn't begin to account for last week in the way you do, let alone those of the past "which is a foreign country".
That is why we hang onto your words, Danny, because they explain so much of where we all come from and perhaps where we are going to. It is your story, the Service's story, our Nation's story, and we all take pride in it. We all take pride in you Danny.
Thank you!

Danny42C
10th Jul 2013, 19:23
Chugalug and all the others, who have said so many nice things about me, and helped me so generously in my I.T. problems,

You do me too much honour ! - for I "stand on the shoulders of Giants", people like Cliff who started the whole thing off, Reg, whose wonderful career kept me enthralled for so long (who can easily forget the story of the 707 highjack in Israel ?), Fred and all the others, many now sadly no longer with us, who have left us with wonderful stories now forever untold.

Please, there must be others still out there, who are standing on the sidelines (as I did myself for six months before starting my Posts). You have unique tales to tell, don't leave it too late.

Danny.

Icare9
10th Jul 2013, 22:57
Something wacky happened, as when I posted, mine was showing as 3999, now it's dropped to 3998...... honesht ossifer..... I swear it was 3999.... so how did it change?

Danny42C
10th Jul 2013, 23:05
Icare9,

Yes, it's slipped a cog somewhere. Not to worry. Press on regardless !

D.

Danny42C
11th Jul 2013, 18:48
Now about this time the RAF in general, and the new ATC Branch in particular, had two of the the best pieces of luck that it had had for many a long day. No.1 was the invention of the first (mobile) Ground Controlled Approach radar set (AN-MPN1). This may have come into use by the US in the last days of the war: it was certainly working at RAF Gatow during the Berlin Airlift in'48.

It was taken up enthusiastically by the RAF and rapidly introduced in the '50s round the larger home stations, where it was ideally complemented by the No.2 piece of luck, the Cathode Ray Direction Finder. This operated on the Very High Frequency radio band which had recently replaced all the previous short-range types (TR9) of radio/telepone communication (air to air and air to ground).

Now ATC was in business in a big way. For the first (post-war) time it really had something to offer the customers. Aircraft had always been able to get QDMs (homing Course to fly) from the old manual D/F sets, but it was a slow and cumbersome business with a high risk of error. Now this magical thing could give you an instant, accurate QDM, or a True Bearing (QTE) to help you with en-route navigation, the moment you clicked the transmitter button to speak.

The TWLOTAs were onto this like wasps round a jampot, they knew a good thing when they saw it. Why beat your brains out trying to work out the way home when all you needed to do was press a button and ask "Steer ?". And, by a happy coincidence, this came into common use just as the RAF was converting onto the first jets (Meteor and Vampire). Bloggs at his AFS was flying 30-35 minute sorties with 40 minutes in the aeroplane. It was risky. One wrong turning and that was it.

There is a closed thread in Military Aircrew: "Meteor Accident Statistics". It makes your hair stand on end to read it as it is, but without CR/DF the carnage would have been much worse (you can take it from me, as one who was a Bloggs in those days). Oddly enough, the losses didn't bother us at all at the time; flying was dangerous, everybody knew that, and in any case it would always happen to someone else.

As a bonus, it was an ideal means to feed aircraft into your GCA, and this enabled the MPN-1 ("Bendix") to be worked without a "search" director: now all you needed was a "feed" director, one of the two PPI tubes in the truck was unused, and you were one F/Sgt to the good.

For the whole of my 17 years in the Branch (apart from three years on the School), I would say that I did 40% my time as "Talkdown", and 90% of the rest as Approach Controller on the CR/DF, or, in later years, on the Commutated Antenna Direction Finder, which was the same thing on Ultra High Frequency.

One final word on CR/DF (I've mentioned this before, I think). A USAF Colonel had a look round our Tower one day. In Approach, he watched the CR/DF console being worked hard. "That's the best Goddam aid I ever saw", he said with obvious conviction. I would say "Amen" to that.

Next time I'll let you know a bit about the fauna in that habitat.

Cheers,

Danny42C


Old definition of GCA: - "The Blind leading the Blind".

Chugalug2
12th Jul 2013, 10:17
CADF (UHF) by my time, Danny, and I remember being as inpressed as your USAF Colonel seeing it briefly in use for the first time. Any transmission from an aircraft resulted in an immediate trace appearing on the screen pointing to a graduated bezel around the screen's circumference and hence showing the bearing.
As a matter of interest, how did that work on a QGH? Did the controller have to do all the mental work of translating a True Bearing into a Magnetic Steer, taking account of Drift, or was some of it done for him by the kit? That a Controlled Descent Through Cloud could be obtained by merely keying one's T/R switch when called for just left me, well...Speechless! :ok:
Oh, this might be of interest, very "period" anyway:-
Ronaldsway Air Traffic Control in the 1950s (http://www.island-images.co.uk/ATC/zRon1950s/z1950s.html)

Molemot
12th Jul 2013, 11:06
Arthur C. Clarke, the science fiction writer and inventor of the geostationary communications satellite, worked on GCA in WW2. He wrote a novel based on his experiences, and it's worth a read if you haven't come across it already. It's called "Glide Path" and the Great South American river has copies available.

Dan Gerous
12th Jul 2013, 13:12
Still a great read. Pity about the 4000 mix up, but I don't suppose Danny will be to upset at not having all those Zero's near him.:)

Danny42C
12th Jul 2013, 17:08
Chugalug,

First, thank you for the Link. This'll keep me happy for hours ! I've only had a hurried glance through, but it's a mine of information, tells me much I didn't know before about the civil side of the operation - and makes me more thankful than ever that I stuck to the aerodrome side of the business. I would recommend everone to read this.

The CR(CA)/DF tubes were set up to show QDMs, to get QTEs there was a little spring-loaded switch on the side of the console for the ATC to press. To give him the second or two he needed to do this, you had to chant: "True Bearing, True Bearing, (callsign) request True Bearing" (as I remember). Your tube couldn't do anything about drift: it was up to you to "aim off" as required.

You couldn't go far wrong with this (although you could lock the switch onto QTE, when your merry men were in the cross-country phase, and calling at every turning point). But when you had to fall back on the old manual D/F, you had to remember that the operator always gave you QTEs, you did your own arirhmetic with it after that......D.

Molemot,

I perked up at your mention of Clarke having "worked on GCA in WW2". Being too much of a cheapskate to buy the book, could you tell me if he says anything about it actually being used in the war?. The story we were told was that it was the post-war brainchild of a Professor Luis Alvarez from one of the West Coast seats of learning......D.

Dan Gerous,

The Mitsuibishi Zero was an aquatic bird, so they didn't trouble us much. The humble and largely forgotten Nakajima "Oscar", their terrestial cousin,was our threat. It was supposed to be almost as good as a Zero; both had been designed with Igor Sikorski's principle in mind: "Simplicate and Add more Lightness". Consequently they could run rings round our more powerful and sophisicated, but heavier and less agile fighters. Or so the story went.....D

I'm a bit puzzled. I'm sure I had a Post describing the Speechless Procedure. Must go and look. Meanwhile will send this off, otherwise bound to lose it.

Danny.

EDIT: There is ! It's in draft on my Notepad. Hasn't been Posted yet ! So, Chugalug, how do you come to know about it ? You must be psychic !.....D.

Chugalug2
12th Jul 2013, 20:18
So, Chugalug, how do you come to know about it ? You must be psychic !.
No, simply jumping the gun again, Danny. Sorry! We were still speechless in the '60's, and I suspect that such a simple idea requiring nothing extra in tower or aircraft yet able to cope with a carrier wave transmission only endures to this day. If not, why not?
So back to the script, Danny, and over to you. Oh, sorry...beep!

PS, BTW the '50s link I posted for Ronaldsway was one of a series. The '40s one deals with its time as a Naval Air Station and mentions GCA:-
Ronaldsway Air Traffic Control in the 1940s (http://www.island-images.co.uk/ATC/zRon1940s/z1940s.html)

Molemot
13th Jul 2013, 12:41
I've found this PDF document which gives the history of GCA in WW2 and ought to answer your questions better than I can...

http://www.rquirk.com/cdnradar/cor/chapter21.pdf

You'll see that the authors mention that Arthur Clarke was their Radar Technical Officer and worked alongside Luis Alvarez.

One of my school chums had an Aunt who had been a tracker on the trial system...she told me that there was a spot on the front panel which had been marked "Thump here for more gain"!!

In later years, hearing the talkdown controller's voice was an assurance that shortly I'd be comfortably ensconced in the Mess bar....

Danny42C
13th Jul 2013, 15:50
Chugalug,

Another feast in store for me ! (I'm set up with reading material till the end of summer now, what with your Ronaldsway histories and Molemot's priceless treasure that he has just unearthed). Still think that you have the "Second Sight", as my next Post gives a detailed account of the Speechless Procedure. .......D.

Molemot,

Another winner ! First, abject apologies to M.I.T. for my crediting of the GCA invention to those Californian upstarts ! And "RAF Hinton-in-the Hedges" ! (you couldn't invent it, could you ? - puts "RAF Much-Binding-in-the-Marsh" in the shade).

As far as I can see at first glance, your Link tells us "All you wanted to know about GCAs but were afraid to ask". This will help enormously to understand the early GCA story as I shall presently recount it.....D.

Cheers to you both,

Danny.

clicker
13th Jul 2013, 18:17
Danny, you're now on a subject I like and have done since a was a lad. I was not able to get into ATC because I failed the RAF medical because of my eyesight and also not very bight in those days (slightly better now!).

I recall a visit as a adult member of the Air Training Corps visiting Marham and being in the approach room when a Victor came in for a PAR. Even I could see he was all over the place and all was explained when the controller mentioned to me it was a Station Commander earning his flying pay.

I also was present on a "speechless one" once, can't remember where but was very impressed by the controller. The crew decided it was "be awkward" time and added just a little more than a radio problem and the controller was having to do turns timed on a stopwatch because of a simulated compass failure. How the controller remained cool and collected have no idea.

By the way if you want to renew your blip driving have a look for a program called "London Control", they do a demo so you can view it for free. Its not easy on high levels!

Danny42C
13th Jul 2013, 19:31
clicker,

Thank you for the link (I like "Free"). It will be interesting, but it'll confirm me, I'm sure, in my long held belief that places like West Drayton and now Swanwick (?) were never for me. If you want to be a battery hen, well and good, but if you really want to avoid the light of day, Fighter Control might be a better bet.

Your comment on customers like your Station Commander (on PAR) touch a raw nerve. But on that subject (and on the timed turns in "No Compass"), your observations are positively uncanny, for (like Chugalug's "Speechless"), they anticipate work which I have already in draft for future Posts.

Something funny is going on here. Could the Middleton Ghost be poking his nose in ?

Cheers, Danny.

clicker
13th Jul 2013, 22:42
Fighter Control?

Well Danny I was lucky enough to get a visit to RAF Neatishead many years ago just prior to a refit so I saw the old equipment.

To be honest I was shocked at the state of the kit they had then. Civil radar had been using displays with mode A/C readouts and callsign conversions for some time but Air Defence was still using just primary radar with a tracker ball "click and read out" which at best gave a single readout every 15 secs (ie per radar head rotation).

I was there during a small evening exercise where I sat with one controller who had an attacking pair while my friend sat with the controller with the defending pair. The attackers got through using a small trick. Clearly the defenders were monitoring the attackers TAD. As the attackers lead called a climb to FL210. The defenders also climbed but the attackers in fact stayed at low level. Great visit as we also were allowed into the controllers brief and debrief and learnt a lot from it like what hot and cold meant and the bulleye system.

Glad to see they have much better stuff now having seen a display they had at RAF Waddington's show a couple of years ago.

Not managed a visit to Swanwick but remember one to West Drayton when they still didn't have radar there. Believe that was at Sopley at the time.

What's better is that I can sit and watch a lot of stuff going on, yep I'm a bit of a anorak with a Mode S box connected to my PC which shows a fair bit of the higher civvie stuff around plus a radio to try and figure what's going on locally.

Danny42C
14th Jul 2013, 00:10
clicker,

I stand in awe of your experience ! When I was an RAF Adjutant of an Auxiliary Fighter Control Unit, they wouldn't even let me go down our "hole" (RAF Seaton Snook). Not special security cleared, old boy !

All right, give me a special clearance. Can't do that, old man, no need for you to know, you see. Less you know about our marvellous equipment, the better, that way you can't inadvertently betray any of our secrets to a Russian agent. (Ten years before, we'd sold a batch of Nene engines to our late gallant allies to cement our relationship). Sorry about this, old chap, but you do see how it is, don't you ?

From what you tell me, the Russkies could sleep easy in their beds !

Cheers, Danny.

Danny42C
14th Jul 2013, 00:35
After "making my number" at Manby, I reported to Strubby Tower, introduced myself to S/Ldr Norcross and all the chaps, read all the Station Flying Orders (and duly signed to that effect), and settled in front of the CR/DF console.

Now I had to consider what sort of customers I would have to keep happy. They would be a very mixed bag. At the top of the tree would be the members of the College Course. I think it was a six-month stint at Staff College level. The most junior students, IIRC, were Wg.Cdrs, and they ran right up to 2-stars. They put their studies into practice, and for that purpose they had Lincolns (at Manby) and at Strubby Canberras, Meteors and a couple of Hunters (but these were hangared at Manby).

Next came what was in effect an ordinary AFS, flying the Meteor 7s. Besides the home-grown Bloggs, they earned an honest copper taking in courses of foreign students, predominently from the oil-rich lands of the Middle East and the Gulf.

Military ATC in those days could easily be divided into two sides - Flying Training Schools (Primary and Advanced), which were hard work, and the rest which were not. Then there were the poor souls at West Drayton (and other ATC Centres) of course, but they were relatively few in number and pitied by all the others who devoutly prayed never to be posted there.

Your work-load varies inversely as the skill and experience of your pilots. One thick Bloggs can be more difficult to handle than three top-notch squadron pilots put together. The first thing I found was that the old "Tee Emm" character Air Commodore Byplane-Ffixpitch was alive and well, and on the College Course. I would think that all the ATCs and QFIs of the time at Strubby would agree that: if you think young Bloggs is hard work, you should try some old ones. They were very rusty indeed.

But we were there to serve all our clients without fear or favour. At first, plain vanilla Controlled Descents (QGHs) were the order of the day, with or without feed-in to GCA, then the optional "extras" started to appear.

First up was a thundering good idea: the "Speechless" procedure. This simulated a situation (by no means uncommon) where the pilot's microphone is u/s, so he cannot speak, but his radio is still OK, so by keying his"transmit" button, he can send a series of clicks. All that remains now is to set up a simple code. Four clicks "...." ("H" in Morse), sets the ball rolling. Then it's one click for "yes", two for "no", three for "say again". It works like a charm; (it recalls the old miners' tap code: "one, two, three-four-five", meant: "is there there a man alive ?")

This has so many possible applications (survivors in the rubble of collapsed buildings is one obvious example), that it should be taught to all children at school. Obviously, it would work with torch flashes just as well, or any other visual signal (yes, I know, Morse Code - how much do you remember? - once it was second nature to us all).

In our case, the four transmissions flashed up at once on your CR/DF tube, you gave "Speechless Aircraft" a steer and "is this a practice ?" straight off, and then (with a sinking heart) asked: "Do you have any other emergency ?"

Now the fun would start.

Goodnight, all,

Danny42C.


What's well begun is half done.

clicker
14th Jul 2013, 09:21
Yes I considered that visit very lucky and it was a case of "don't ask, don't get".

I noticed one day that Neatishead was having an open day but it was a restricted audience, RAF only or similar, but decided to drop them a line explaining I was very interested in their line of work, my air cadet background and my current line of work which had including the fact I had signed the official secrets act while working for the police.

I was very pleased, and surprised, when a reply came back saying the visit was in order. Then came the day, nice walk around the establishment which didn't take too long as the ground area was quiet small followed by a visit "down the hole" as Danny called it. This lasted all of 5 minutes in the room but they had a few folks to get round.

Given the kindness shown I wrote another letter thanking them and adding that the hole was very interesting but my eyes had barely adjusted to the light before we were outside again. That resulted in another reply inviting myself to come back one evening in a few weeks time which resulted in the exercise observation.

As I mentioned in the previous post it was very informative to both of us, we knew quite a bit of the chatter from being "anoraks with radios" but it made a lot of sense when sat in front of the amber screen with the controller giving us briefs insights when time allowed. I sat with a Luftwaffe exchange officer who was excellent even though things didn't go as briefed at first.

Danny42C
14th Jul 2013, 14:59
clicker,

Your............"sat with a Luftwaffe exchange officer who was excellent even though things didn't go as briefed at first".........

There's a story here, waiting to be told. Out with it !

Danny.

Geriaviator
16th Jul 2013, 17:46
Every time the supply seems exhausted, another story surfaces! I've been away quite a lot recently but return to follow this wonderful thread woven so constantly by our dear friend Danny. Be back as soon as I can, must fly now or I'm in the doghouse again :eek:

Wander00
16th Jul 2013, 19:25
Aunty Joan always excused the Luftwaffe exchange officer from the BoB Cocktail Party, but he always cane to the "after-party". Good troop, as were the Dutch, French and US exchange guys,

Danny42C
16th Jul 2013, 21:22
Molemot (#4011 p.201 link)

Thank you for the graceful compliment, which I accept on behalf of all past and present "Talkdowns".

I have been going through the link you so kindly gave me with increasing wonder (the level of responsibility that the RAF and RCAF were happy to place on the shoulders of airmen in those early times !!) and admiration at their complete and well-written account of the genesis and first days of the AN-MPN-1 GCA. We still don't know whether it came into operational use in Europe before close of play in May '45. It certainly didn't get out to the Far East. No matter now.

It occurs to me that others (I sincerely hope) may be studying this jewel of a link, and may think that the description of the operation of the equipment also holds good for post-war RAF practice. There were considerable differences (the main ones which I list below, point by point).

But I am very glad that this has appeared, for it relieves me of having to tell the whole weary tale ab initio in a Post (already on the stocks, to appear soon) and will allow me to concentrate on minutiae which (I think) had a terrible consequence.

First, the technical detail they give is first-rate ( I've learned a lot that I didn't know, and I worked the gear for two years). You can take it as read.
(Quotes from Link in italic, RAF operating practice in plain text)


Prime Mover
========

The O-853 AEC Matador 8-ton was the prime mover used by the RAF. Ours carried a Lister diesel driving the generator (nice pic on Wiki).

Placement on the airfield
================

The truck was placed approximately 100 ft to the right of the runway in use and near the windward end.

IIRC, the RAF required a further 75yds from the edge of a runway to be kept free from all obstructions, so our truck would be at least at that distance.

Therefore the trailer was tilted two degrees below the level.

We tilted ours four degrees (the truck was then termed to be "on tilt").

radar reflectors placed a fixed distance from the end of the runway, and from the centreline of the runway.

These would be our "touchdown" and "offset" markers.


Operation of the Truck
==============

The standard crew was made up of four operators, one Controller, one Radar/Radio mechanic and one motor mechanic/driver for the prime mover and power units. I recall that, if available a second Controller would take over one of the PPI operating positions.

The RAF Crew comprised one Controller ("Talkdown") and one "Tracker" (each operated one of the two precision radars). The one Radar Director operated one PPI tube (the other was disused, as the CR/DF operator in Approach took over its function). There was never a second Controller.

"Talkdown" always drove the prime mover (then he had no one to blame but himself if the rig ended up out of position !) We always seemed to have two or three Radio and Radar Fitters/Mechs on site.

The operators normally manned the two PPI positions, the horizontal precision CRT and the Vertical Precision CRT.

(See above)

the selected aircraft was handed over to the second operator to vector into the landing pattern.

We needed only one PPI operator, the "Feed" Director, who did this.

By using cursors to intersect the radar blips, Height and Azimuth information was fed to the Controller who normally stood between and behind the two precision operators so that he could monitor the height and azimuth information with relationship to the pre-planned glide/approach.

This I would like to have seen. It must have been rather like the circus trick where a rider rides standing on two horses. Our "Talkdown" sat at the azimuth precision display, his "Tracker" at the elevation one beside him (how was that coordinated ? - wait and see).

At two miles from touchdown the precision operators would switch to a Two-mile range on their CRT which would enable them to get more accurate positional information.

This puzzles me. I do not remember any two-mile "zoom" facility. What we were able to do was to speed-up the precision scan rate (for the last mile of talkdown) from 1 to 4 sweeps per second. Do they mean this, perhaps ?

With the Link, and these Amendments, you really have a good introduction to the "Stephenson's Rocket" of GCAs, and it makes my task that much easier.....D.


Geriaviator,

Be my guest in mine ! Welcome back !......D.

Wander00,

Very tactful ! Yet his Dad (probably) was only doing his job to the best of his ability, same as we were. It was just his fate to be on the wrong side. Alles vorbei now, anyway ! Yes, good blokes all.....D.

Bit of a long story, I fear,

Cheers to all, Danny.

Warmtoast
16th Jul 2013, 23:03
One of the best known personalities to be trained with the Rhodesian Air Training Group (RATG) during the war is Tony Benn. Tony Benn was Labour MP for Bristol South-East for 31 years and in 1943 joined the R.A.F. for training as a pilot.

He was posted to Southern Rhodesia for pilot training and the entry below is for 14th June 1944, the day of his first solo in a Cornell PT-26 trainer at No. 26 EFTS Guinea Fowl not far from Gweru (Gwelo) in the middle of the colony.


Wednesday 14 June 1944

At six this morning Crownshaw told me to get into 322 straightaway, a PT-26 Cornell trainer. I apologised to him for boobing the check yesterday and he remarked they were really only nominal things and that they didn’t really matter.

We taxied on to the tarmac and I got out and walked back with Crownshaw. He said we’d just have a cigarette and then go up again. I was very surprised, but put it down to a desire on his part to finish me off ready for another check tomorrow. However, we took off, did a circuit or maybe two, and then as we taxied up to the take-off point, he said to me, ‘Well, how do you feel about your landings?’ I replied, ‘Well, that’s really for you to say, sir.’ He chuckled. ‘I think you can manage one solo,’ he said. ‘I’m going to get out now and I’ll wait here for you,’ he went on.

So this was it, I thought. The moment I had been waiting for came all of a sudden just like that. ‘OK, sir,’ I replied. ‘And don’t forget that you’ve got a throttle,’ he said. ‘Don’t be frightened to go round again -OK? And by the way,’ he added -he finished locking the rear harness and closing the hood, then came up to me, leant over and shouted in my ear, ‘you do know the new trimming for taking off?’ ‘Yes, sir,’ I replied, and he jumped off the wing and walked over to the boundary with his ‘chute.

I was not all that excited. I certainly wasn’t frightened and I hope I wasn’t over-confident but I just had to adjust my mirror so that I could really see that there was no one behind me.

Then I remembered my brother Mike’s words: ‘Whatever you do don’t get over-confident; it is that that kills most people and I only survived the initial stages through being excessively cautious.’ So I brought my mind back to the job, checked the instruments, looked all around and when we had reached 500 feet began a gentle climbing turn. It was very bumpy and the wind got under my starboard wing and tried to keel me over, but I checked it with my stick and straightened out when my gyro compass read 270 degrees. Then I climbed to 900, looked all round and turned again on to the down-wind leg. By the time I’d finished that turn we were at 1,000 feet, so I throttled back, re-trimmed, got dead on 180 and I felt pretty good about things.

I thought I was a little high as I crossed the boundary so I eased back to 800 rpm, and as I passed over, I distinctly saw Crownshaw standing watching where I had left him. Now we were coming in beautifully and I eased the stick and throttle back. A quick glance at the ground below showed me to be a little high, so I left the stick as it was, gave a tiny burst of engine and as we floated down I brought both back fully. We settled, juddered and settled again for a fair three-pointer.

I was as happy as could be. I taxied up, stopped and braked. Try as I did, I couldn’t restrain the broad grin which gripped me from ear to ear and Crownshaw, seeing it, leant over before he got in and said ironically with a smile, ‘Happy now?’

I was more than happy, I was deliriously carefree, and as he taxied her back I thought about it all and realised that the success of my first solo was entirety due to the fine instruction I had received; it was a tribute to the instruction that I never felt nervous once, and all the time had imagined what my instructor would be saying, so used had I got to doing everything with him behind me. We climbed out, and attempting to restrain my happiness I listened while he told me where and what to sign. Then I wandered back to my billet and one of the greatest experiences of my life was behind me. The lectures were pretty ordinary, and it being my free afternoon I had a bit of lemonade in the canteen and wrote this.


His diaries can be viewed online here:
The Benn Diaries: 1940-1990 - Tony Benn - Google Books (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LdCp8S5XK9wC&pg=PA382&lpg=PA382&dq=tony+benn+%2B+Rhodesia&source=bl&ots=yWxmBF6IeM&sig=dHT5KlsebAf3N2UyO7b_Oyn1EBM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=A7_lUdDEIoGH0AWKh4HgBw&ved=0CHEQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=tony%20benn%20%2B%20Rhodesia&f=false)

Danny42C
16th Jul 2013, 23:28
Chugalug,

You will forgive me, I hope, for working "out of turn" on Molemot's link, but in view of the current work-in-progress Post on my GCA training at RAF Sleap (which will, I trust, be coming out shortly), it was more convenient to give priority to what is in effect the complete historical background and technical description of the MPN-1 in one "package", whereas the Ronaldsway story is far more a wide-ranging (and intensely interesting) general review of the wartime and early postwar attempts to assist civil and military pilots to get home safely.

Nevertheless, there are items in the general sweep of the Ronaldsway tale which ring bells. The Navy seems to have had the bright idea first. What they had (by the photographs) was clearly an MPN-1. Now you may remember that, in the RCAF airmen's story, they note the fact that, while the prime contractor was Gilfillan (Los Angeles), the USN put out their own separate contract to Bendix. Now the RAF's MPN-1s were always known to us as the MPN-1 "Bendix"! In fact "the Bendix" was the colloquial term, to differentiate it from its successor, the AN-CPN-4 (which was also built by Gilfillan, but nobody called it that).

It seems clear that the USN got this batch from Bendix, the RN begged some of them, then the RAF got in the queue for the "cast-offs" (but none the worse for that). Now I'm sure that somebody else was building them, for Heathrow had an MPN-1 built by a third name, but I've forgotten it. This one was was destined to come into the limelight.

It is also clear that all manner of prime movers with diesel-generator sets were used as were available; I suppose all the customers of Gilfillan/Bendix/A.N.Other needed to buy was the Radar Truck. (Pre-Aug'45, would these qualify for Lend-Lease ?) Suppose so - in which case they'd all be "repossessed" for sure.

Settling down for a more careful read of the Ronaldsway links - thanks again !

Cheers, Danny.

Danny42C
17th Jul 2013, 17:05
Your tormentor now had three more arrows in his quiver: he could let you have the lot if so inclined. The first was "No Compass". This was really quite unrealistic, how can a Compass go u/s unless you hit it with a hammer ? (Lightning strike ? - not all that common, now is it ?)

The antediluvian aircraft of those times had a "Directional Gyro" on the panel. This was, in effect, a compass with no north-seeking function (clearly an Irish idea in the first place). You waited till your magnetic compass settled down, then set your D.G. in accordance with it. (Many people routinely set the exact runway heading on the D.G. each time when lined up for T.O.)

The D.G. did not jiggle about like a compass needle, and it was much easier to hold a heading on it. The ATC practice assumed that the D.G. had not been so set before you found your compass u/s, so it was no use to you. Of course, the answer now was to orientate it some other way. Where is North ?

Any scornful cub scout will now tell you, that in GMT, and in the Northern Hemisphere, if you point the hour hand of your watch at the Sun, half way between that hand and 12 is South, near enough (no, you do not have to find the moss on the trees). To make it easier for the pilot, and to cover the occasions when he had no watch, or had forgotten to wind it up, ATC had Tables of Sun's Azimuth, corrected for date and latitude. Bloggs headed into Sun, and set the figure you gave him on his D.G. Easy.

By night ? - Pole Star. Can't see Sun or Polaris ? - tricky now, but there was a "one-and-two" method, I vaguely recall. This involved instructing your man to fly S&L at constant speed, then taking successive bearings on him at (say) exactly zero, +30 and +90 seconds. You plotted these, marked a ruler at the 1 and 3 inch points, and wiggled it on the plot until you got a perfect "match". It'll only fit in one position: now you know his track (roughly, but good enough). Tell him to put it on his D.G. Bob's your uncle.

This, of course, was so time-comsuming that it was a one-to-one business; it was really only an ATC tour-de-force to keep us on our toes.

But enough already. There was worse to come.

'Night, all,

Danny42C


Do not bite off more than you can chew.

Danny42C
18th Jul 2013, 02:05
Chugalug,

I've been having a closer look at this Link you gave me and my curiosity was roused by this snippet:

Quote: "The FV5 VHF Direction Finder could be used to provide instrument approaches to aircraft not equipped to use radio navigation aids, either a pilot interpreted 'D/F Approach' or a controller interpreted 'QGH Approach' ".

Poked about in Google a bit, and they say a lot about the installation of this gear in ships, but I can't find a technical description of this bit of (Naval) kit. It sounds very like our CR/DF, but how about the "pilot interpreted D/F Approach" bit ? Could this be our old friend the "Voice Rotating Beacon" , which I thought we'd seen the last of, or somthing like it, reappearing in some new guise ?

Anybody any idea ? Union Jack ?

Cheers, Danny.

Blacksheep
18th Jul 2013, 07:04
how can a Compass go u/s unless you hit it with a hammer ? Bullet or shrapnel? This is after all, a warplane. ;)

Union Jack
18th Jul 2013, 10:16
Anybody any idea ? Union Jack ?

Danny, sadly not I fear - a bit out of my bailiwick, but I never fail to be enthralled by the fascinating story of your "War and Peace".

With very best wishes

Jack

PS 0305 ......?:=

Danny42C
18th Jul 2013, 15:00
Blacksheep,

"A hit, a very palpable hit", Sir ! (How quickly we forget the moment the guns fall silent).

Having said that, if the scrap-iron were coming into my cockpit, I think thoughts of resetting my gyro would fade into the background for the time being.

But point well made, Sir !

Danny.

Warmtoast
18th Jul 2013, 21:32
Danny
Now ATC was in business in a big way. For the first (post-war) time it really had something to offer the customers. Aircraft had always been able to get QDMs (homing Course to fly) from the old manual D/F sets, but it was a slow and cumbersome business with a high risk of error.

Sorry but not so!

As a RAF VHF/DF Operator for over eight years in the 1950’s I provided the bearings for many “QGH’s”. In the 1950’s in the RAF a ‘QGH’ was a request made by a pilot for a ‘Controlled Descent Through Cloud’ and the procedure was to home the aircraft to overhead the airfield with ‘Magnetic Bearings to Steer’ (QDMs).

Here is what I wrote earlier about this approach procedure (post no 219 above)

QGHs would be controlled by the air traffic controller, but on a couple of occasions I did it myself, which was probably against all the rules and regulations, but they worked.
Procedure: The pilot would give a ten-second transmission on the RT which would allow the DF operator to swing the DF aerial to find the ‘null’ on the transmission and by depressing the ‘sense’ plate (which put the aerials out of phase) determine that what was being shown on the DF wheel against the cursor was the correct bearing to the aircraft and it was not a reciprocal. When the sense plate was depressed the signal either when up or down, if it went up the bearing was wrong and the reciprocal was indicated, it was then a matter of swinging the aerial 180-degrees to find the ‘null’ again, go ten degrees either side of the ‘null’ point and depress the sense plate again, this time the signal should go down and if it did one had the correct bearing.
The circumference of the DF wheel was marked with two scales. Top scale showed true bearings from the VHF/DF (QTE’s) whilst the lower scale was marked in red and showed the magnetic course to steer to the airfield (QDMs). To home the aircraft to the airfield overhead for a QGH one read off the bearing shown on the bottom scale, passed it to the controller who in turn passed the magnetic course to steer to the airfield to the aircraft. Aircraft RT transmissions were given every minute or so (or less) with the DF operator taking the bearings. When the aircraft reached the overhead the aircraft’s transmissions sounded all mushy; confirmation that the aircraft was overhead was established by depressing the sense plate and if there was no increase or decrease in signal the aircraft was in fact overhead.
Having informed the controller that the aircraft had reached the overhead, the controller told the aircraft to steer an outbound course about fifteen or twenty degrees to the right of the reciprocal of the inbound runway heading and to descend to an agreed height, possibly 1000ft. The outbound track was flown I seem to recall for about two (or perhaps three minutes). At the end of the two minutes the aircraft was asked to do a rate one turn onto the inbound runway heading, which if all had gone well placed him very near the extended runway centre line at 1000ft. On the inbound leg DF bearings were taken which allowed the controller to check that the aircraft was steering the right course inbound. The controller also gave heights to descend to, so perhaps with one minute to fly to the airfield the aircraft would be at about 500ft and descending to the minimal obstacle height. Unless flying in exceptionally poor visibility the aircraft would see the approach lights and land.
This is all culled from methods last practiced by me over fifty years ago, so if there are any inaccuracies, blame it on age, but the principles are as I remember them.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Bovingdon/RAFBovingdon-AutoVHF-DFMedium_zpsc1f1aa1a.jpg

As to CR/DF here is a photo I took of the ex-RN FV10 that was in use at RAF Bovingdon in 1956. This FV10 was situated off the airfield about a mile to the west and fed a remote display in Bovingdon's tower.

FWIW I have a photo somewhere of the Gilfillan GCA (AN-MPN4?) in use at Biggin Hill from 1953 - 1955.

PS. Photo of Biggin's GCA added below.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Biggin%20Hill%20Early%201950s/BigginDFGCAaerials1955.jpg

Danny42C
19th Jul 2013, 00:29
Warmtoast,

I reckon you've solved the RN "FV5" problem for me ! Clearly that would be an earlier version of the RN "FV10", and of course what you have in the picture is recognisably a CR(CA)/DF console, although much different from the RAF model I used (for a start, what on earth were all the knobs, taps, instruments and switches surrounding it ?) All I remember was a bigger (I think) CRT, the QDM/QTE selector switch and at the top a green light for QDM and a red one for QTE (and I suppose there was an on/off switch, which is where my technical knowledge ends).

Yes, your lower pic shows an AN-CPN-4. This was a huge leap forward, I worked them at Thorney Island and Geilenkirchen and IMHO, this (theoretically) mobile rig had nearly as good pictures as the later AR1/PAR combination which was "plumbed-in" to Approach from two separate radar heads on the airfield. I'll (hopefully) tell my tale of my time in them in a future Post.

Now, as to my "slow and cumbersome business with a high risk of error", I readily withdraw the "high risk of error" bit where such an obviously skilled and dedicated operator as youself was concerned. But they weren't all like that; many in my day were NS men, and the arrival of a CR/DF on a station would effectively put them out of business (as far as short-range working was concerned). The consequence was that they didn't get the practice necessary to keep on the top line, and not a few reciprocals were fed via the Controller to the aircraft and sometimes the Controller was to blame for that (said he with a guilty blush).

Your description of a "manual" QGH is absolutely correct, and when you had one Anson or Wellington on your plate every half-hour, it was perfectly adequate. But the High Level QGH was designed to cope with as many Bloggs as a Controller could handle at a time and (be fair) you'd be a bit pushed with four customers at once, wouldn't you ?- to say nothing of a Speecless No Compass No Gyro Double Flame out. Speed was of the essence, in a perfect case a Meteor could be brought from 16,000 ft overhead to "Over to Local" in 2½ minutes (which'll just about cover your outbound leg).

Questions spring up: what was the smaller building ? ILS Glide Path generator ? - no, that'd be at the other end of the runway from the Radar truck. CR(CA)/DF receiver ? - quite possibly. Someone will identify it for us. Fine figure of an LAC (?) - could it be you ? So what was stuck in the left side of your belt ?

All credit to you for stepping into the breach when (presumably) your Controller was too busy. But how would you stand if your chap ploughed in ? (not too well, I'd think. Your Controller would hang with you, but that's no consolation to you).

This is a perfect example of what this Thread is all about.

Cheers, Danny

Pom Pax
19th Jul 2013, 06:03
Thanks Danny, after 55 years I've just realised what went wrong. We got a reciprocal!
Such was CRM in those days I was told to shut up when I ventured to say we were going backwards.

Danny42C
19th Jul 2013, 15:26
Union Jack (your #4028, the PS),

Just twigged it ! (always was slow on the uptake). Night Owl, I'm afraid.

Warmtoast has given us the answer for the FV5s - it was the True Blue model of the CR/DF.....D,

Pom Pax,

We'd better re-phrase that as: "Retracing our steps" or "Going the Wrong Way", hadn't we ? (only thing I've ever seen "going backwards" - barring choppers - was a Tiger Moth in a gale - don't know how he ever got down).

Still, after 55 years, you are vindicated at last !........D.

Cheers, both,

Danny.

Chugalug2
19th Jul 2013, 16:31
Danny, your forensic skill at dissecting and analysing the various titbits that I and others have thrown your way is both impressive and informative. For a start I had no idea that the caravans various that housed those assorted marks of GCA at UK Military Airfields were all from the USA. Given the balance of payments deficit and the fact that lease lend had all been returned to lender, that must have been an expensive asset. Was there no UK designed or licensed GCA version? Ironic that so much of the initial research and development had come from us, but on reflection a very familiar story, excellent lateral thinking but pants at the commercial money making aspect.

Warmtoast, your FV10 is indeed something wondrous to behold. They don't build them like that anymore do they? I'm sure that I've seen those handles at right and left somewhere else though. Was it on an A30?
The box like cabinet on the control panel has a whiff of where the keys are kept to launch missiles from SSBNs but will probably turn out to be something as mundane as the fuse box. Impressive nonetheless!

Pom Pax
19th Jul 2013, 18:55
Danny I accept "Retracing our steps", however at the end of a long day when in a rearward facing seat facing where you are supposed to be going, you are going backwards which also happened to be "Going the Wrong Way".
On a day when nothing seemed to be going right the next 20 minutes were very fraught.

Danny42C
19th Jul 2013, 20:53
Chugalug,

I don't know whether the AR1/PAR was British (perhaps we'd got the hang of it at last). And there was a sort of poor mans' PPI on which we did a sort of Talkdown. This was the ACR-7, which came in two flavours, ACR-7C (Cossor) which was in a truck, and ACR-7D (Decca) built-in to the Tower. I had a 7C at Linton '62-'64. That was home-grown, I'm sure......D.

********

Pom Pax,

Silly of me ! Was thinking of you in right-hand Lesser Seat of Mighty up front, rashly offering your opinion to Him-who-must-be Obeyed ("Pax" now, of course - aren't we all ?) Backward-facing pilot ? Now I come to think about it, that could explain a lot !...as a story soon to be told will attest....D.

********

Now back to the battle. At every stage in the procedure, your opening question had to be: "Have you any further emergency ?" This was usually too good an opportunity for your pilot to miss. The second turn in your torturer's screw was "No Gyro" (ie No Compass, No Gyro). Now what will our poor ATC do ?

From memory, the obvious thing to do was to estabish your man's present heading by the previous method. Then all turns could be timed, by your stopwatch - or his Breitling - (this would be the timed-turn method seen by clicker (#4013 p.201). As we all know, a Rate 1 turn is 3º/sec, and all pilots can fly an exact Rate 1, can't they? So, in effect, you navigated for him by instructing him to turn (say) 20 secs left: he would turn 60º (more or less), you kept a running record of his putative new headings (in chinagraph on the desktop). The system should be near enough to bring him within sight of the airfield.

And then there was the cherry on the cake. At any stage in the procedure the pilot can "butt in" by giving "...." again. This was always bad news (it could be even worse, you could have another "speechless" on your plate, and would have to sort out "Speechless One" and "Speechless Two", but even the QFIs shrank from such cruelty to the dumb animal in Approach). What you got now was usually a "Double Flame-out".

You might think that a Speechless No Compass No Gyro Double Flame-out would be reasonably content with the mere sight of an airfield within reach when he broke out of "cloud". Not so, they wanted to pop out into the circuit able to have a stab at some runway or other straight away. They usually assumed a low cloudbase (1000 ft or so) for the purpose of the exercise.

Essentially, what you are aiming for is to get your man into a square-box pattern round the airfield, so that when he breaks cloud he'll be in the circuit with whatever height he had left to play with. So once you got him fairly close, it wasn't all that difficult . He must continue to fly S&L all the time unless you tell him to turn. Try to bring him through overhead, for then the reciprocal of his trace when he pops out gives you his accurate heading. Suppose it's 180º. Lock over your tube from QDM to QFE.

Turn him 90º left onto E, wait till the QTE comes round to 135º, turn 90º left again onto N, when trace comes to E, turn him onto W, and so on, each time "jumping" 90º ahead of him (and keeping him 180º ahead of his trace). Now he's in your "box", he must be very close.

All this describes an ideal situation, and ideal situations are thin on the ground. But I recall one occasion when the College CFI was "showing-off" his ATC to some two-star visitor. It happened to be me in the chair, but could have been anyone. He gave me the whole package.

By sheer good fortune it went off spectacularly well, they "broke cloud" at 2000 ft downwind for 09, it would have been child's play to "deadstick" on the runway-in-use. The visitor was much impressed, SATCO got a pat on the back. Naturally the QFIs only pulled these stunts when things were otherwise very quiet on the channel (and Bloggs was not allowed to at all, AFAIK) you couldn't be doing with them at 0900 in the morning, when the massed ranks of Bloggs needed your help to get home and fell on your head. But it all helped to pass the time.

The summer weeks passed, and one ot two curious things happened.

Goodnight, chaps.

Danny42C.


All's well that ends well.

Warmtoast
20th Jul 2013, 09:42
Danny

Questions spring up: what was the smaller building ? ILS Glide Path generator ? - no, that'd be at the other end of the runway from the Radar truck. CR(CA)/DF receiver ? - quite possibly. Someone will identify it for us. Fine figure of an LAC (?) - could it be you ? So what was stuck in the left side of your belt ?


Small building was Biggin's CR/DF base unit. The remote display was in the tower - relatively new at the time. No ILS at Biggin then.

LAC was not me. Photo is a blow-up from photo I took of Biggin's Modelling Club display/ competition as seen here:

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Biggin%20Hill%20Early%201950s/BigginHill-AeromodellingClub_zps4df57460-1.jpg

exMudmover
20th Jul 2013, 12:34
Danny,

Can I join the long list of Pruners to congratulate you on your fascinating historical blog, which is an essential read every time I log on. In particular I love your humorous descriptions, which remind me a lot of the great PG’s sublime style.

About CR/CA DF: was it not true that CRDF (Cathode Ray Direction Finding) was the initial version, used for VHF, while CADF (Commutated Antenna Direction Finding) was used for UHF? I’m not sure when UHF became the primary radio, but it was certainly in military jets in the early 60s when I trained.

I’m looking forward to hearing about your time at Leeming: I was there as a QFI 1967-70.

Danny42C
20th Jul 2013, 14:21
exMudmover,

What was the meaning of that expression ("Mudmover")? It was after my time, now it seems to be in common use. Some kind of pilot, obviously.

Thank you for one more plaudit heaped upon my undeserving head ! (all gratefully received, of course ("PG" ? I'm not even in the same league !)

I was at Leeming late '67 to end '72, so we'll have lots to talk about. Must now have to edit projected Leeming Posts to exclude all unfavourable references to QFIs !

You've got it exactly right with CR/DF and CA/DF. Like you, I can't remember when UHF came in, and we swapped over the 4 (or 8) button selectors for the magical ARC-52s (but I'd finished flying by then).

D.

exMudmover
20th Jul 2013, 16:00
Danny,

The honourable art of “Mudmoving”, refers to Ground Attack (in Fighter-Bomber types). I quote from RAF Ground Attack Falklands which probably sums up the attitude of Fast Jet pilots during the Cold War :

"Since the first aggressive air-to-air engagements of WW1 the fighter pilot has been seen both popularly and professionally as the supreme exponent of military flying skill. The gallant deeds of the famous combat aces of both World Wars have always outshone those of the less well-known bomber pilots and other mundane toilers of the air, often unfairly dismissed as mere 'bus drivers' in their unglamorous and unwieldy craft. This attitude continued after WW2, the sordid business of (Fighter) Ground Attack being left to more old-fashioned aircraft, while the best pilots wanted to fly the latest and most potent Air Superiority fighters. If such pilots were required to carry out Ground Attack operations then it was done very much as a Secondary Task, a distraction from the more important business of shooting down other aeroplanes. After all, the only way you could become an 'Ace' (and impress the girls) was by shooting down enemy aircraft (No matter that they might be flying straight and level and totally unaware of the shooter’s presence) Merely clobbering ground troops and tanks was not the true way into the annals of aviation history."

As an American Air Superiority Fighter pilot once said:

“Those Ground Attack guys just move dirt around”

Hence we proudly adopted the title “Mudmovers”

Please don’t sanitise your comments on QFIs at Leeming! I was a stroppy young Herbert then and no doubt rubbed up some ATCOs quite severely at the time, because of my impatience and cockiness.

smujsmith
20th Jul 2013, 16:18
Danny,

Can I back up Mudmovers request that you give the QFIs both barrels, so to speak. Whilst I have no claim to aircrew status, I do enjoy the banter and surely that's what it is. Fascinating reading the last few pages, I never realised how Air Traffic Control went from zero to hero through the rapid advance of technology. Keep it going sir, and the "lustier" the better, us old SNCOs love to read about our leaders and betters:oh:

Smudge

Danny42C
20th Jul 2013, 20:42
exMudmover,

At last I know ! I must have been a mudmover par excellence , as all my productive work during the war consisted of excavating huge lumps of Burma with the intention of sending any Jap troops ensconced therein to meet the ancestors. Trained in UK as a Spitfire pilot (what for?) ended up at this humble task (c'était la guerre).

Your: "(No matter that they might be flying straight and level and totally unaware of the shooter’s presence)". It's the only sure way. As they taught me at OTU: "You'll never see the plane that shoots you down !"

Joking apart, I take off my hat to all QFIs. (never having been one myself). Without the kindness and infinite patience of Mr Bob Greer all those years ago in Florida, I would never have earned the (rather motheaten) wings Mrs D. has tucked away somewhere......D.


Smudge,

Your: "our leaders and betters". "Leaders"? - questionable. "Betters"? - NEVER !

Long may our Virtual Crewroom in Cyberspace and the banter that goes with it flourish (...for never is heard / a discouraging word...) And all honour to our Moderators, for tolerating our shameless excursions off Thread !...D.

Cheers, both, Danny.

smujsmith
20th Jul 2013, 21:15
Danny,

How appropriate (home on the range), did you ever hear the alternate ending to that ditty ?

Home, Home on the range
Where the deer and the antelope stray
Where never is heard, a discouraging word
Cause what can an antelope say ?

I was taught that version by an ex Royal Canadian Air Force Flight Sergeant several years ago.

You could definately say your wartime flying career was at the very beginnings of mud moving. And whilst it is a "derogatory" term used by the modern fast jet jockey, to inflame the ire of the modern Ground attack pilot, I believe both have their place in the history of recent warfare. I doubt though that many modern day mud movers can have practised their art in such primitive or desperate circumstances as you did. I think the "mods" may well be very relaxed about the divergences and liberties taken on this thread, after all, it's the thread that keeps all our service histories tied together. Keep going Danny, and get Mrs D to dig out those wings, they are a unique record of your life and achievements.

As a certain science officer would say, "Live long and prosper" Danny

Best regards

Smudge

Blacksheep
21st Jul 2013, 10:07
There are those who believe that moving mud is the primary purpose of an Air Force. Indeed, Lord Trenchard was one of the first. :ok:

Danny42C
21st Jul 2013, 23:01
Smudge,

Never heard that version, I have to admit ! (but then, we were out of the mainsteam in Europe for the whole of the war after '42). All sorts of things went on that we only got to hear about (sometimes much) later.

As to our circumstances when we were not actually mud-moving, we were only too aware of the luxury in which we were living, in comparison with the poor 14th Army devils in the jungles of Arakan and Assam.

A few days ago on TV, I watched a programme on the 81st (West African) Division in Burma in '44. It was sobering to see the footage of the conditions in which they had to live, never mind fight, in the battles round Maungdaw and Buthidaung (and of course, in the well known "Battle of the Admin Box").

We, on the other hand, had a roof over our heads, a bed of sorts and enough to eat, even if it was not always cordon bleu. You can always find someone worse off then yourself !

Danny.

smujsmith
21st Jul 2013, 23:30
Danny,

Never a truer word spoken. My father in law was an "hostilities only" airman of the airframe persuasion. He spent his war on 75 Squadron at Mepal. Stirlings initially and then Lancasters. Towards the end of the war he spent some time on 617 Squadron, I think at Woodhall Spa. He passed a few years ago, but I will never forget his pride at having done an air test with 617, locked in the bomb bay. It was my honour to give him a private look over PA474 when we did a big overhaul on it at Abingdon years ago. He, like many of his contempories, seemed to always be happy with his lot, and grateful that he had gone through that bloody war, contributed something, and survived. I suppose that many servicemen both current and ex will identify with your feeling of "better treatment" compared to less fortunate souls. I suspect that the myth of RAF people being better treated should remain exactly that, a myth. I believe all who took part were true exemplars for our nation. Anyway, as I age I digress more, back to reality and the origins of Air Traffic Control.

Smudge

Danny42C
22nd Jul 2013, 00:20
It is time to have a look at the people who manned ATC in those early post-war years. There was a widespread good-natured belief (often voiced) that the Branch had originally been set up as a sort of "Sunset Home" for all the good old has-beens and neverwozzers in the General Duties Branch. And indeed it did look that way. Every control tower in the land could fieldat least one full bomber crew (1945 style) if needed. Everybody (for the first few years) would have a row of ribbons, and 99% a brevet of some sort.

This had two wholly admirable consequences. First, the old wartime aircrew spirit lived on (as it had done at Valley and Thornaby), and that made for a pleasant, nostalgic working environment. And it made the Controllers instinctively able to empathise with Bloggs in his many trials and tribulations, in a way that no one without a flying background can possibly do.

This, of course, raises the hoary old question. Is it (a) necessary or (b) desirable for Air Traffic Controllers to have flying experience ? I would answer "No" and "Yes" respectively. In my time the MCA was recruiting (ex-RAF and civil) pilots and navigators up to the age of 35 with (I think) 500 hours logged; they also had a cadet entry from 18 or so, and as part of their Course their cadets were trained up to PPL (this was a considerable "perk" in its own right). So it was obvious what their opinion was.

When the RAF direct-entries for ATC (all SSCs AFAIK) started in the mid-sixties (because they were coming to the end of the old-timers), some of them had PPLs or considerable flying or gliding experience, and some were FTS "washouts" who had transferred into the Branch. But the majority were more or less straight from school. These readily absorbed the instruction at Shawbury and quickly became technically proficient, but I always thought that it would have been better if the RAF had been able to give them even a few hours' flying instruction just to "see how the other half of the world lives".

It is all too easy to become impatient, or even exasperated with Bloggs when he's ignoring your instructions and generally giving you a hard time, but you must bite your tongue. "Petulance is the pilot's prerogative", my old SATCO used to say, and it's much easier to remember when you've "been there" yourself.

Cadging the odd flight is fine, all experience is valuable, but one idea I used to recommend for the new boys and girls was to spend some time in the simulator, if your station has one and the instructor will play, and get him to show you round the cockpit and "have a go" at some simple exercises. It isn't easy, struggling with an aircraft going every which way, your QFI bellowing at you and this extra disembodied voice nagging you to do something else as well. Something has to give !

As for the Local Controllers, it was remarkable how many of them there were whose only sight of their airfield (apart from that from the Tower) was the daily morning runway in-use check in the ATC Landrover. Why not, when the field is not active, borrow a bike and ride right round and have a good look ? (you can't see much detail from a car, walking would take far too long - and it's tiring, it's easy to hop off a bike).

"The finest manure is the farmer's footstep" Anything you see that you don't recognise, or can't understand, or you think is wrong, take a note and ask about it when you get back (it's remarkable what you can find). One of the young gentlemen to whom I remember giving these sage advices finished (so I learned recently) as a Wing Commander, the Chief Instructor at the ATC School at Shawbury, so perhaps they may have borne fruit in later years.

Back to Strubby again next time.

Bedtime now. Goodnight, chaps,

Danny42C.


"According to a Scientist
The Bumble Bee should not Exist
Because his Weight exceeds his Lift
I'm glad I'm not a Scientist"........

(Pinched from Saturday's D.T. "Letters to Editor" - very old chestnut but neatly put, don't you think ?)

Yamagata ken
22nd Jul 2013, 07:45
Danny. Putting on my boffin's hat, "the flight of the bumble bee" is understood. From memory, the wing action approximates a horizontal figure-of-eight (an infinity sign if you wish). Bumble bees get lift from each forward and aft stroke. Thus demonstrating that bumble bees are much cleverer than boffins. :O

BEagle
22nd Jul 2013, 08:09
Bumble bees get lift from each forward and aft stroke.

Which is fine while flying slowly! Too fast and they'd suffer retreating wing stall - but I guess they know that....

Chugalug2
22nd Jul 2013, 09:00
Danny, it seems as though your old SATCO certainly had we pilots banged to rights, and his thoughtful advice was obviously passed on in turn to those that you advised. In retrospect I consider myself to have been blessed by good fortune to have served when I did (1959-73). Not only were my seniors in the main ex WWII but so were so many in the support branches, including of course ATC.
The mixture of knowledge, competence, and lateral thinking that had been absorbed by them in that spot of nastiness coloured their attitude to modern situations. So not very much grand standing or agenda lists but instead a practical outlook and in the main friendly determination to help rather than to hinder.
We owe your generation so much, Danny, not the least of course being our freedom. As one who served while yours still did, I owe it a personal thank you for making my time both enjoyable and rewarding. What a pity we couldn't clone your all to make later generations blessed as well. Now that would have been a truly Permanent Commission! :ok:

Danny42C
22nd Jul 2013, 19:19
Smudge,

"All who took part were true examplars to our nation" True, I suppose, but actually we were just the ones who happened to be on deck when the trumpet sounded !.....D

Yamagata Ken and Beagle,

I'm no scientist, but doesn't that just shift the problem one stage back ? How does the creature develop the power, given its musculature and the calories used just toting the heavy animal from one source of nectar to another ? (said he with tongue in cheek)....D

Chugalug,

I hadn't realised (your being 20 years my junior), that we'd served together for almost the whole of your time (except that I retired a year before you left). It's true, the ethos of the war years continued into peace, and the RAF was the better for it, until the old guard died out in the late '60s. (sadly, you couldn't clone us, for that would mean you'd have to clone the times in which we lived, and which had moulded us, and no one would want to do that).

Later things were different (but not necessarily worse on that account), as people had careers to build, and ambitions beyond simply staying alive......D.

Regards to you all, Danny.

Danny42C
23rd Jul 2013, 22:35
exMudmover,

Do you remember, were we still playing these silly "No Compass, No Gyro" games with the JPs at Leeming in the late '60s ? Strangely enough, I can remember far more about my Strubby times, even though they were ten years earlier.

Danny.

clicker
24th Jul 2013, 12:33
Sorry for the delay in replying Danny but I've been fairly busy in the last couple of weeks.

Afraid to say there's no real story behind the "didn't go as briefed" post.

I can't recall the exact details but it was something along the lines of the controllers being asked by the crews to act as full controllers in guiding them fully for an intercept and then when the "games" started doing all themselves and only requiring an advisory service from unknown traffic and range and bearing info when they lost contact which each other.

Danny42C
24th Jul 2013, 15:33
clicker,

Not to worry. What you recall reminds me of a Naval exercise I read about many years since.

In Edwardian days, Red Fleet put out from somewhere up north to do battle in the North Sea with Blue Fleet from somewhere down south. Signor Marconi had only just invented W/T, and it hadn't caught on yet. They'd decided not to arrange a rendezvous, but just see what would happen.

What happened was that the two Fleets wandered forlornly round the North Sea for a week, producing prodigious quantities of smoke, but never met.

Then they said "S*d it", and went home.

Danny.

Danny42C
24th Jul 2013, 19:02
It was not all that busy that morning. We had some Middle Eastern students on the AFS Course at the time. Ahmed (solo) in his Meteor piped up for a QGH (he didn't need it, it was gin-clear, but he had been so briefed); we were on 27. I homed him at 16,000 ft. He was the only one on the CRT, so I could give him my full attention.

Things progressed perfectly normally, I sent him out on 105°, commence descent, call turning left at 10,000. He took his time about getting there, but no matter - he was in no one's way. "Kilo 29 (or whatever) - Harpic",* called Ahmed. So far, so good.

* Unofficial (but universally used) call for the descending turn inbound on a High-Level QGH (for "Harpic" reaches Round the Bend).

This one was straight out of the book: "Kilo 29, continue turn left onto 270 and advise". This turn should take only little more than a minute, but again he seemed very slow. However, this was by no means unusual. Many Bloggs (solo), had worked out that 20 degrees of bank were much safer than 30 when in a steep, high-speed descent in cloud - or not - (and who's to say they were wrong ?).

He called in 270° inbound. The QDM had hardly moved since "Harpic".... Funny, that. And now of course he was south of where I wanted him: "Kilo 29, steer 280°, call check height 2,500". "Level at 2,500" - "Check QFE set". He read it back OK. "Descend to visual, call field in sight". This should only be a matter of a few moments till that call, then I'd put him over to Local. My "elevenses" had just appeared beside me. He must be crossing the coast now, surely ?

The seconds ticked by. Half a minute now ! No call ! "Kilo 29, check heading 280"- "280, sir" - "Check compass" - "Compass OK, sir" - "Are you sure ?" - "Yes, sir". But the QDM hadn't responded to the correction..... Alarm bells rang.

What's he doing ? Where is he ? I hit the GCA "squawk" box switch. Chiefy (the "Director") had a monitor on Approach Channel of course, and kept an ear on it, to hear if any business was coming his way. But all had seemed so normal up to the last few seconds (and I suppose he heard the change in my tone), that it was only now he took a look at his tube. "Can't see him, sir".

Now we're in trouble! The Assistant put the tea-tray down. "Get the Duty Instructor down here", I snapped. "Tell SATCO" (the D.I. normally stayed in the top tower with Local Control). A couple of radio mechs working at the other end of the desk looked up with interest, scenting blood.

Duty Instructor came down at full gallop (he's able to give Ahmed orders what to do, I can only advise on Air Traffic matters - (SATCO is no use, he can do no more than I can, and I am the Watchkeeper). In any case he was out of his office somewhere.

"Nothing", said Chiefy in the Truck. I tried Kilo 29 again "Check heading ! - check compass !" "Heading and compass OK, sir !" And now a dreadful sign - the trace was slowly starting to shrink back away from the bezel.

He was going away from me ! But at last he seemed, for the first time, to sense that all was not well. Nothing in front of him but sea to the horizon ? He gave tongue, and said the fateful words: "I am flyeeing into zee Sun !" At ten in the morning - and he's supposed to be on 280 ? I said the first thing which came into my head (and must qualify as one of the strangest instructions ever issued by ATC):

"Turn round until you have the Sun on the Back of Your Neck !" He obeyed, and the scales fell from his eyes: "Compass all right now, sir". But he wasn't all right. What did "now" mean ? He could be half way to Copenhagen !

"Shall I put him over to 121.5 for a "Pan"?" "God, no!" said Duty Instructor - "anything could happen! - we might never get him back again - how much fuel has he got ?" We flashed Local: "How long's he been airborne ?" Good news at last: "22 minutes". It seemed that Ahmed liked his trips short and sweet.

So he has 18 minutes, give or take. Might last 35 miles. "Any use telling him to flame number one out and open the cross-feed ?" "Are you mad ?", said the Duty Instructor (who knew Ahmed: apparently he was not the brightest star in the firmament). We all hung on Chiefy's words. The minutes passed agonisingly slowly. The stop-watch clicked loudly. Fingernails were being chewed to the bone.

At last Chiefy spoke: "Something 19 miles, on bearing, coming our way. Very faint. Think he's pretty low." Enormous exhalations all round. He's 12 minutes left. Should make it onto the airfield. Five minutes left and he was over Mablethorpe - at about 100 feet ! (Seems he had an idea that he was safer low down. Not so far to fall?) Duty Instructor shot back upstairs.

Of course we'd cleared everything for a straight-in on 27. He managed it all right, although the brakes were pretty hot when he stopped. He nearly got back to the line when it flamed-out.

This is long enough. The Post Mortem will have to wait till next Post.

Sorry, chaps.

Danny42C


A miss is as good as a Mile.

BEagle
24th Jul 2013, 19:20
What happened was that the two Fleets wandered forlornly round the North Sea for a week, producing prodigious quantities of smoke, but never met.

Then they said "S*d it", and went home

A tradition which has been proudly maintained by the RN in numerous boring JMCs ever since - aided and abetted by that useless wireless operator Roger Waitout....:\

exMudmover
24th Jul 2013, 20:24
“No Compass, No Gyro” in the late 60s

Danny,

You bet we were doing them! And speechless at the same time.

And – get this – we were still practising No Compass, No Gyro recoveries in the Harrier GR9 Simulator when I finished work there in 2012! The good old GR9s, which we sold for a song to the US, were some of the most capable and sophisticated Ground Attack aircraft the RAF ever had – when fully serviceable.

Unfortunately, after Generator failure (a not-uncommon event), all of that 21st century sophistication disappeared and you were left with a 1940s-type airframe, engine, artificial horizon and basic pressure instruments - plus of course the useless E2B standby compass.

Hence the No Compass No Gyro practise.

Danny42C
24th Jul 2013, 22:33
exMudmover,

You amaze me ! Just shows you can't keep a good procedure down !

D.

Chugalug2
25th Jul 2013, 09:17
Danny:
Chugalug,
I hadn't realised (your being 20 years my junior), that we'd served together for almost the whole of your time (except that I retired a year before you left).
I suspect that the key to my leaving is in your parenthesis, Danny. Ostensibly I PVR'd because I was told that I'd done all the flying tours that I could expect and was destined to stay on terra firma from thereon in. In reality I could see that the times they were a changing, and in ways that were not to my liking. I would humbly suggest that your departure, and those of your ilk, had much to do with that.
Looking back, all these years later, I have no regrets and would happily serve my time again. Equally certainly I would also leave again as I did. Like most of us who served in that period, I feel privileged to have done so when we had so many aircraft, so many stations both at home and abroad and, most importantly of all, a leadership that had truly earned their positions, and were an inspiration and an example to all that was sadly lost when they were gone.

Danny42C
26th Jul 2013, 16:14
So there was a dead Meteor on the taxiway just short of the flight line turn-in. In the time it took to get a tractor and towing dolly out to haul him in, he'd collected quite a tail. His Squadron Commander turned out, heard Ahmed's account, and fastened onto what he saw as the salient facts. Ahmed had been under ATC control, had started a QGH with plenty of fuel, and had come within a whisker of ditching in the North Sea. They had very nearly lost a Meteor and a customer, and a paying customer at that. Someone's head was going to roll for this - mine !

He charged up to the Tower in high dudgeon, bypassed SATCO's office (SATCO was over in SHQ, as it happened) and stormed into Approach breathing fire. What the devil was wrong with our homing equipment ? What was wrong with me ? and much more along the same lines. What the Hell did we think we'd been playing at ?

I waited till he stopped for breath before smiling sweetly: "Nothing wrong at this end, Sir - your man just had Red on Black !" This quite took the wind out of his sails - it simply hadn't occurred to him - with D.G.s it had become so rare an occurrence in these later days. He took a moment to take it in, then I got a handsome apology. We set about working out how it might have happened.

When I did my Meteor refresher in '50 at Driffield, I'm pretty sure the panels still had the old Directional Gyros. But at Weston Zoyland at the end of '54, one or two Meteors had the new "Gyro Fluxgate" (G4F) compasses fitted instead, and I'd put money on it that some of the Strubby ones had too, and that Ahmed's was one (we checked: it was).

At this point, and to save no end of explanation, and if you're still interested, I have to advise you to Google: "List of RAF Compasses". Pick the "Glossary of Terms, Jever Steam Laundry". Scroll down to "G4F"; they give you a very nice picture and a full description of that compass.

Hard to believe, but this is what he must have done:

He'd put my inbound steer of 270° on the "lubber line" all right. Now he has to turn the aircraft to bring the compass needle between the "tramlines". He only needs to turn 195° left to do this, but from some reason (unfamiliarity ?) he misses it first time, doesn't realise what he's done, carries on turning till he gets all lined up a second time.

Now he's turned through 375° and is merrily back on heading 090°, thinks he's on 270°, and the rest you know. As he's more or less back on the same spot where he called "Harpic", of course his QDM has hardly moved. Why couldn't he see he was going round in a circle ? I can only guess that he was turning over a featureless sea (much like the featureless desert at home ?) - and he was busy, head in cockpit, keeping the steep descending turn from getting out of hand. Really, I don't know.

Anyway, all's well that ends well, and Ahmed lived to fly another day - (me, too !)

Goodnight, all,

Danny42C.


Never mind.

smujsmith
26th Jul 2013, 17:45
Ahh, Danny,

You have I believe absolutely described what I would know as a switchpigs. As an example I will call one in on myself. When I was gliding, many moons ago, we had a pre landing check of WULF;

W -Water ballast dumped
U - Undercarriage down
L - Loose articles stowed (maps, drinks etc)
F - Flaps set

This was usually done around 600 feet and parallel to the touchdown point, heading downwind. Being recently fledged on a glider with a retractable undercarriage I was very anxious to ensure I got it right, so, around 800 feet I do WULF, as I look left passing the touchdown point I then repeat my actions, this time reversing my selections on Undercarriage and Flaps. Needless to say I did the best landing I ever managed. Wheels up, flaps up, smooth as a baby's bottom. No damage to the Astir, no damage to me apart from the bar bill, the rules are just like getting a hole in one at golf. I would suspect though that your previous experience of flying the Meteor gave you the satisfaction of seeing what had occurred. I never realised Air Traffic Controllers lived such an exciting existence. Keep it up Danny, you've got us hanging again.

Smudge:ok:

Danny42C
26th Jul 2013, 20:05
Smudge,

You awaken memories of my own gliding days (very few in number) in RAF(G), in the weeks before Mrs D. and baby daughter were able to join me out there. The C.G.I. was W/Cdr Crowshaw ("Joe the Crow"), C.O. of 11 Sqdn (Javelins) at Geilenkirchen. He instructed me on the "K-2" (I think), and turned me loose on a Grunau "Baby".

First solo, turned downwind all right, turned in as briefed (400 ft). But the ground looked awfully close for that height ! Brakes in (did the "Baby" have brakes ?) and just managed to scrape in, coming to rest abeam the Master of Ceremonies' trestle table.

"What did you do that for ?", they said. "Why didn't you turn in at 400 ft, as you were told?" "I did turn at 400", I retorted indignantly. "Were you tapping the altimeter ?" they said. "No, should I have been ?"

Now they tell me !

Danny.

smujsmith
26th Jul 2013, 20:26
Danny :ok:

In both instances no one died, no aircraft damage. Weren't we lucky boys. I was contemplating a few things the other day and it occurred to me that my car, with 6 gears, a built in satnav etc etc is more, technologically difficult to understand than most gliders, of whatever era. And yet Mrs Smudge has no problems operating it. Perhaps we blokes are not designed for such high level decision making ? :rolleyes:

It's nice to know that real pilots could have similar problems to mine. Maybe gliders were a thing apart. Keep up the good work Danny.

All the best

Smudge:ok:

Fareastdriver
27th Jul 2013, 09:02
Judging by the standard of Meteors we had at Oakington the instrument fit, when they came out of major servicing, depended on what was handy at the time.
Their final years at Changi necessitated a mod program. This involved drilling the aileron hinges, threading them and inserting grease nipples. This was because at manufacture they had been 'greased for life', at that time about 4years/1000hrs.

Pom Pax
27th Jul 2013, 17:56
, and a paying customer at that
Were Ahmed & his mates actually paying customers or sponsored by one of our own overseas aid programs?
Secondly it seems very ironic that we trained people who later would be the enemy Indonesians & Iraqis. Who else did we train?

Danny42C
27th Jul 2013, 20:12
Fareastdriver,

"at that time about 4years/1000 hours". And here's the Tornado soldiering on still; they were coming into service before I left, and that's 41 years ago ! (I was told that the Spitfire was designed for a service life of 6 months - don't know if it's true.)....D.


Pom Pax,

AFAIK, this was a Government to Government thing. Both we and the Americans were, no doubt, making a good thing out of this trade, as being the only people who could provide the advanced flying training that these nations needed to provide the pilots for the new FJs we hoped to sell them.

The Russians were doing the same for their protégés.

"Who else did we train ?" You may well ask. Basically anyone who was "on our side" in the Cold War, or whom we hoped to bring onside. Irony ? it was worse than you think. Sometimes we had contingents from two countries at the same time; Air Ministry had to be dissuaded on one occasion from taking on an Israeli batch and one from an Arab state together. (I particularly remember the Israelis; when they went home they sent Flying Wing a huge crate of oranges - I don't recall any of the others sending us anything).....D.

Cheers to you both, Danny.

Fareastdriver
28th Jul 2013, 09:48
On my course at Tern Hill Royal Air Force trainees were in the minority. We had:
7 RAF. (3 direct entries, 1 each remustered from signaller, engineer and admin plus one ex national service retread).
2 Lebanese Air Force.
2 Jordanian Air Force.
2 Iraqi Air Force.
4 Royal Malaysian Air Force.
8 Ghanaian Air Force.

Our Middle Eastern colleagues apparently had a bad time with the Israelis who also had a hand with the Ghanaians. They were initially trained by the Israelis using Hindustan basic trainers, known as the cast iron Chipmunk. Subsequently when Nkrumah fell from grace I believe that they were lined up a beach and shot.

Happily I met the Malaysians again later on in Borneo.

26er
28th Jul 2013, 10:17
In, I believe 1956, Chivenor had an Ahmed from Iraq who left his Hunter on the flight line with the engine running and when found hiding in the mess anteroom swore blind that it wasn't his signature in the F700.

And a year or so later one of the Indian Air Force course departed the runway and just missed the GCA before coming to a shuddering halt. That would have given the GCA crew something to write about Danny. And the Indians were the good guys.

In about 1968 when the PAI course was run there a Jordanian student told how he had shot down an Israeli Mystere which through no skill on his part suddenly appeared a short distance in front and he was so surprised he almost forgot to pull the trigger.

And the fun we had with Kuwaitis who had been pressganged into the airforce from civilian life and the flying club, sent to Canada to learn how to fly Beavers and Otters but having reached London were redirected to Chivenor for a long course on Hunters. At the time the runway in Kuwait was not finished for the Hunters to use so they quite rightly felt a bit puzzled.

And then there were the Saudis. Nuff said.

Danny42C
28th Jul 2013, 17:54
Fareastdriver,

Brings back memories of my days with No.8 (IAF) in '43-'44. And at Thorney Island once a (single seat) Gnat came through, flown by a Flt.Lt. Pal. Looked a nice little machine, and I believe they had some success with them in the wars with Pakistan. As you say, good guys.

Yes, only 75 yards out on the grass, we were always acutely aware of our exposed position - still, you could always think of someone worse off than yourself - the Runway Control Corporal in his van ! (at least one was written-off in a Vulcan crash, I think).

One or two of our top-scorers in the B.o.B tell a similar tale of their first "kill" - in the melée, it just "popped up" point-blank from nowhere...D.


26er,

So now we've quite a roll of good customers - your five, plus Israelis, Saudis and Indians. Anyone know any more ?. (Hope we got our money up front). It's a wonder that we had any training capacity left for our own Bloggses !
Did the Israelis shoot 'em, or the Ghanaians when they got back ? (not that it matters to them much !)

As for the Kuwaiti Hunters, when I was at the School in '64-'67, the joke was that they'd bought two - one flown in Kuwait and the other kept in store at Shawbury - so the'yd got Adequate Horizontal Separation (Air Traffic wise).D

Cheers to you both, Danny

Pom Pax
28th Jul 2013, 19:48
Danny make that nine you missed my Indonesians!
They were Naval gentleman.With their white shirts and white gloves on parade at Kirton in Lindsey they resembled a flock of penguins with their far eastern style exaggerated arm movements. That was amusement, what was agony was living beneath the Iraqis with the constant wail of Arabic music.
At Thorney Island the Varsity staff pilots refused to fly with any pair of Iraqi students unsupervised. As a result I was lumbered one night with 8 hours babysitting.

exMudmover
28th Jul 2013, 20:23
Pom Pax

During my time at Leeming in the late 60s as well as Iraqis we were training Jordanian, Malaysian, Singaporean and Aussie students, plus one from Aden.

And of course there were the inevitable Saudis – enough said!

Earlier, at CFS we had Kenyan , Nigerian and Lebanese pilots in training.

CharlieJuliet
28th Jul 2013, 20:40
Hi Danny,
On my course at Acklington in 63 we had a total of 29 with 11 guys from Iraq. We were told that they had come directly from training in Russia as those ruling Iraq had changed while they were away. They told us that the Russians had only allowed them to taxi in clipped wing Yaks, and that was as far as they had progressed. They completed the JP course with us, but not totally without incident. Apart from them I saw no other nationalties on my way through the machine.

26er
28th Jul 2013, 20:49
In 1956 several members of the newly reformed Luftwaffe went to Chivenor for a short jet fighter refamil course, including if I remember correctly, Majors Barkhorn (301 kills) and Hartmann (352 kills). One of the young Hunter PAIs (pilot attack instructors) was briefing for a high quarter attack exercise which hopefully ended at about 200 yds still with some deflection when one or other of them politely pointed out that most of his kills had been achieved from fifty metres or less, line astern.

Danny42C
28th Jul 2013, 23:15
I am grateful to all my correspondents - it might have been better if I'd asked who we were not training !.... Inuits, perhaps - or the headhunters of Borneo ?


It was mid-morning at Strubby and things were rather quiet for the moment. The NAAFI van had made its welcome way round most of the sections on the South side of the runway, and now set out round the taxiway to cater for the few people on the other side. Frankly, I can't think of many: the D/F operators in their hut, maybe some electricians working on the lights, and of course the GCA trucks (self-catering, but there might be some cigarette sales).

Now of course all MT traffic wishing to cross the runway must do so at the (live) threshold end, not passing marshalling point until getting an Aldis "green" from the Caravan. A Meteor was half way round on finals, our van was coming up to the point, the Runway Control Corporal flashed it a "red", the van ignored it and continued serenely on its way across the bows of the Meteor which by now was on short finals.

Caravan banged off a red Verey, but the pilot already had the van in sight, "poured the coal on", veered right and went around, the while expressing himself forcibly to our Local Controller on the subject of Runway Controllers in general and ours in particular. He in turn was on his squawk box to the Tower, equally volubly protesting his innocence.

Local Controller sent the ATC Landrover in hot pursuit of the offender, caught it and escorted it back round to ATC, where an immediate interview with SATCO had been arranged.

The young lady (who drove the van herself, as well as dishing out the "char and wads") seemed not unduly perturbed. The dialogue went as follows:

"Why didn't you stop when you saw the red light ? ......
"What red light ?...
"The red light from the Caravan !"....
"What Caravan ? .....
"The one at the end of the Runway !"......
"What's a Runway ?"....

It seemed that, as a new girl, she had been inadequately briefed by the Manageress.

SATCO realised that he'd got a "Right One Here", and launched into a long and detailed exposition of the Regulations which had to be obeyed When Crossing a Live Runway...."Do you realise how important all this is, Miss ?..... Are you sure ?..... Is there anything you don't quite understand ?"

"Yes", said she, in an aggrieved tone, "Do I have to know all this for three pounds a week ?"

"Collapse" (as Victorian "Punch" used to say) "of Stout Party".:eek:

Goodnight once again,

Danny42C


Well, these things happen.

Fareastdriver
29th Jul 2013, 09:19
A quick aside before we move on;

The two Lebanese on my course that I referred to were going to continue and fly Hawker Hunters that had recently been purchased by the Lebanese Air Force.

I don't think the pilots are flying any more but the Hunters are.

Lebanese Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Air_Force)

MPN11
29th Jul 2013, 10:21
Dear Danny42C - our paths may not have crossed, but I was one of those Direct Entry ATCOs in 1965, and my first posting was … RAF Strubby. ;)

You may recognise the Approach Desk - I doubt it had changed much since your day. Oh, the joys of having half the aircraft on UHF (using the one-sided headset and foot Tx switch) and the other half on VHF (using the HMT with Tx bar in the handset). Dotted trace on the CADF for UHF, solid for VHF, mix of High and Low QGH … GCA (MPN11) to 09 at the same time as ILS to 27 … I learned fast and hard!! Manby JPs, our Varsities and Canberras, Practice Diversions from everywhere (our ILS was very popular!) ...

However, your nostalgia is better than mine. Back to you, Sir. :D


(Edits to try and get a clearer image and fails! Click image for better brightness and contrast))

Danny42C
29th Jul 2013, 18:16
Fareastdriver,

Thanks for the Link. Looked it up. And we think we've had troubles with our Air Force !

"I don't think the pilots are flying any more, but the Hunters are" This I've got to see !! (Or did they just flog them back to us ? - UAVs, perhaps ?) There's a story here, FED - please tell us......D.


MPN11,

That made me sit up straight ! Never heard of it ! Straight to Google, turns out to have been some greater entity of which an AN-CPN-4 forms only a part. So that's what you had for a GCA (you had it good).

The picture is wonderful - where to start ?

The tower has been rebuilt. We were in a Mk.1 wartime job, with a sort of pigeon loft stuck on top for Local Control. That was draughty, wet and freezing cold in winter (which as you know, is 11 months of the year in those parts). I think they had an outside staircase to get up on the roof to it.

The CR/DF console looks the same, but what a runaround they gave you ! The CR/DFs I worked there ('55/'58) took only VHF, and when I met UHF for the first time (at Leeming ('67/'72), it was all CA/DF. Never had a dotted line on the tube. No ILS at Strubby in my time.

Squawk box (to GCA?) in front of you. Monitor on the right looks about 50W, should fill Albert Hall. (Can't see your teacup - your Assistants slacking ?)

Note Mount Fuji of dogends at Controller's elbow - fags needed to calm your shattered nerves. But it was a good place to start for you, if you can hack it in a pilot training school, you can hack it anywhere else with one hand tied behind your back.

I was on the School mid '64 to autumn '67. You must have been on your Course when I was there. What were your dates ? You and I are going to have a lot to talk about, for I intend to pick your brains mercilessly, if you'll let me.

Don't go away,

Danny.

MPN11
29th Jul 2013, 18:41
Thought you'd like that, Danny :cool:

Yes, even in 65 we still had that awful little Visual Control Room - so small you could hardly swing a china graph, and with a sliding door and random reflections everywhere. And the outside staircase, so still the WW2 tower.

CADF/CDRF really taught new kids like me about overall situational awareness in all 4 dimensions … stopwatches flying on and off, traces leaping in all directions, all the assorted procedures associated with Refresher Flying … including, as you mentioned previously, the Speechless No Compass No Gyro Recovery. More tales of that on request!

The MPN11 was the "other version" of the same GCA kit.
MPN = Mobile Pulse Navigator = road transportable
CPN = Cargo Pulse Navigator = air transportable
And, yes, that squawk box - was it GCA or Local? Sure it was GCA.
Large circular thing on the right was a indeed a loudspeaker - I think it was used for monitoring the Guard frequencies.

Manby had that awful Cossor ACR-7 with the tilting antenna that could handle one aircraft on SRA. Strubby would regularly have 2 and sometimes 3 on Talkdown, with the Director doing his bit as well.

Although Strubby was, in my time, just Varsity/Canberra we used to have a regular weekend visitor from Chivenor … one Sgt Boulter (personal c/s was either 63 or 69) in a Meteor T7 who would pitch up every Friday afternoon to spend the weekend with his girlfriend, and be first away on Monday to get back in time for the 2nd wave.

I'll PM you with a bit of Shawbury info (dates etc). Glad I stumbled on this thread, during a bored moment!

pzu
29th Jul 2013, 19:41
I've posted links to Tinus Le Roux's series of interviews with SAAF personnel from WWII before

Here is his interview (with CGI enhancements) with Lt Bryan Jones of the SAAF, Bryan was Navigator of 31 Squadron LiberatorVi EW105 'G' shot down over Warsaw on 14 August 1944

Bryan's fellow crew were Lt PR Klette (pilot), Lt AE Faul, WO2 LED Winchester, WOII HR Upton and WOII HJ Brown all SAAF and WO TG Davis RAF(VR)

All save WOIIHJ Brown became POW's it is understood that at some stage Brown was shot and wounded whilst attempting to escape and later died of his wounds and probably buried as an unknown 'Canadian airman'

Post war Winchester who had become an SA Senator traced this burial and it is now accepted as WOII HJ Brown

The interview is here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-7vfmDyNtEU

PZULBA - Out of Africa (Retired)

This coming Thursday August 1st, will be the 69th Anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising

Danny42C
29th Jul 2013, 22:31
pzu,

Yes, that was truly an awful story, made worse by the callous betrayal of Stalin in ordering the Soviet Army to stand off and allow Hitler to wreak his vengeance on the Warsaw defenders.

Only when the last of the Poles had been dead or captured did Stalin resume his advance on to the end game in Berlin.

Out East as we were, this was all unknown to us at the time.

Danny.

Danny42C
31st Jul 2013, 15:57
The rest of the '55 autumn, I spent settling down to my work on Approach Control at Strubby; we closed the deal on 133 Victoria Road and gratefully moved in to our new little paradise. About this time Manby held their Autumn Ball, and we exchanged a few words with the legendary "Gus" Walker (having been carefully briefed to shake his (remaining) left hand. The next (Saturday) afternoon we rose at 4 p.m. It had been a good party.

The nights grew longer, the hour came off and we were looking forward to our very first Christmas. My mother was to join us from Heswall: she would get the train to Lincoln, We would drive across and pick her up from there. The weeks flew by. By now the summer visitors had all gone, all the "attractions" were boarded up; Mablethorpe lived on its fat - and on the RAF families !

The winter before had not been bad, and it was reasonably mild right up to Christmas. I collected Mother without difficulty. Then the snow came, a raging blizzard all along the East coast and a dump of snow which would have no equal until the once-in-a-century monster in'62-'63.

The power went down first. That was not too bad, everyone was well stocked with candles (but it was a nuisance that the little TV was "off"). Roads were impassable over a wide area, and an additional hazard was the miles of telegraph wire which had come down with the poles in the gale, and was now all over the place.

It was impossible to get out to Strubby by road, but we could get out as far as the railway station at the back of town. The steam snow ploughs had kept the trains running, so for a day or two we did our duty and took the train to Manby (if you can't reach your own Station, you must report to anywhere you can). IIRC, we didn't go as far as Manby railway station, but by arrangement with the driver, dropped off a couple of fields away from the airfield and battled through the snow on foot.

SATCO (from Sutton-on-Sea, a few miles south) had managed to get to Strubby (paradoxically, his roads were passible, although he was further away) and was none too pleased that most of his crew were now in the wrong place. But it made no difference, both fields were under a dump of snow beyond any hope of clearance; we just hung about, useless mouths, until it became obvious that the only sensible thing was to stay at home and sit it out.

North Sea gas was far in the future, Mablethorpe was on "town gas"; it had its own little gasworks at the back of town; every day the townsfolk looked out to the two small gasometers to check on the "sink" (if any) compared with yesterday, and worried about how long it would last - for of course the coal stocks were running down as supplies were having difficulty in getting through.

Domestic heating everwhere was from open-hearth fires in those days. The prudent householder had laid in as much as his coal cellar or bunker could hold. The family lit a fire in one (possibly two at the most) rooms and huddled around it. Bedrooms and bathrooms were freezing. But that had always been so. Fr.McEnery from Louth wouldn't have been able to get through on the Sundays; I would be excused stoker duty, but we must have drained down the church CH system to avoid damage, but I don't recall doing so.

The real nightmare was water supply. (Most of) Lincolnshire is flat as a pancake: in order to keep up a head of water pressure there was a Water Tower at the back of town. Water was pumped up into this by electric pumps. Here was the Achilles Heel. Of course Mablethorpe's Water Tower had a standby diesel generator; I don't suppose it'd been serviced for years; it broke down after a few days; spares would take ages. The town looked like becoming uninhabitable. (We well recall melting snow in buckets for all purposes). The big pub across the road (the "Eagle") became very popular at lunchtimes.

Mablethorpe was full of RAF families from Strubby. GCA stepped into the breach. The Matador (6x4) which carried our power unit was unhitched (Strubby was snowbound, anyway) and, Lord only knows how, got across the five miles of country to the Water Tower. I imagine the local farmers must have lent powerful tractors to help haul our truck on its errand of mercy. They hooked it up to the pumps: the day was saved, and someone should have got an MBE out of it, but I don't think anyone did.

Eventually the weather relented, the roads were cleared, the power came back (or the spares for the standby arrived, don't know which), the Matador went back to Strubby. We cleared the runways and we were back in business.

That's enough for the moment.

Cheers, Danny42C


Many are cold but few are frozen.

Chugalug2
1st Aug 2013, 07:48
Ah yes, winter 62/63, Oakington, half the width and half the length of the main runway cleared with shovels, picks (it was frozen solid after the good idea of using chocked Vampires parked in echelon running at full chat turned out to be a very bad idea) and brooms. I was most definitely then among the frozen few of whom you speak. Wg Cdr Flying gets airborne, circuit and lands, through the cleared bit, into the uncleared bit, and then into the barrier. Plan B; get the Vampires and Varsities a/b and relocated to Wyton (which had some of those non-flying Goblin powered bedstead things, being V Force).
As you say, Danny, with a bunker full of coal and drawers full of candles one simply hunkered down until it was over. Water was, and still is, a worry and enough reason to have at least one bathroom equipped with a bath for storing the stuff in these days of walk in power showers. Our ever greater reliance these days on electricity for storing and cooking food, communication via mobile phones, TV, radio and the web, heating (even gas fired CH requires it), as well as lighting, means its loss is more keenly felt.
My 3 day week candles have finally run out (mainly from being used for greasing tongues and grooves and wood screws). Time perhaps to buy some more. You just never know...

teeteringhead
1st Aug 2013, 09:07
we exchanged a few words with the legendary "Gus" Walker (having been carefully briefed to shake his (remaining) left hand. If I may intrude into this hallowed thread, I've a footnote of which the Gus Walker dit above reminded me.

I was presented with my Wings by Sir Gus, when he was (just) still serving, and we were all briefed as above. There was some confusion as Sir Gus was used to the unbriefed, and would proffer his left hand reversed (thumb downwards) so a right hand could shake it.

His shake was a powerful pumping action too! I recall introducing my then young lady to him at the post-parade reception, and watched her handbag handle bouncing down her arm and onto his! They still let me keep the wings though. . . . .

Wander00
1st Aug 2013, 11:58
As a Senior Flight Cadet I took a drill team of cadets to HQFTC at Shinfield Park for the 25th Anniversary of the Command. I was still in practice kit (hairy No2s) when I was told the C-in-C (Paddy Dunn) required my presence "now". Went to the OM and greeted by clutch of 3 and 4 stars including Gus Walker. Tried not to choke on my half pint whilst attempting to make sensible conversation with them all.

Some months later, crossing the carpet in the rotunda at Cranwell shortly before graduation, and GW going in the other direction. Brisk "Good Morning, W" from the 4 star and a handshake. BH - my card was well and truly marked.

Six or 7 years later walking through Brancaster with the former Mrs W, and recognised GW walking in the other direction. Greeted me by my Christian name, chatted to herself and wished a brisk "Good Morning". What a memory, and what a memorable man.

Chugalug2
1st Aug 2013, 13:48
W00:-
What a memory, and what a memorable man.
As with all good commanders, all you saw was the serene seemingly effortless scene on the surface. It came about only because of frenetic effort beneath. A friend of mine flew Sir Gus to inspect RAF Gibraltar (he was then the RAF Inspector General). Rather than relax in the sumptuous comfort of his VIP aircraft he studied the "rogues gallery" provided by his ADC for the entire trip. Everyone that Sir Gus had previously encountered and was now at RAF Gibraltar was the subject of avid revision, be they high or low. One such had been his driver in RAF Germany. Gus paused in his inspection of the Guard of Honour with a brief, "I hope your driving has markedly improved since I had a daily dice with death from it, Bloggs". Despite the teasing tone, Bloggs swelled with pride at being recognised, as did everyone else of course.
Your story likewise confirms that he had a memory that he could draw on in an instant. No doubt the result of constantly honing it so.
A great man and a great commander, but also a very human one. The guest of honour one night at RAFC Cranwell was a senior Luftwaffe General, who like Sir Gus had been a VSO in WW2. Gus ignored him all night. A very uncharacteristic slight from such a charming man, but then still waters run deep...

MPN11
1st Aug 2013, 14:26
Hard work and a great memory are valuable criteria. I encountered two notables.

Air Cdre Cyclops Brown took over at CAW Manby, and didnt emerge for a week. The following Monday he knew the face/name of every officer and SNCO at Manby and Strubby.

AVM (as he was at the time) Mike Knight was doing his AOC 1 Gp Inspection at Waddington. In the Tower was a brand new WRAF Plt Off, arrived the previous week. He looked at her and said "Weren't you the station photographer at Machrihanish last year?" Sarah did have an impressive chest, which may have helped jog his memory.

Danny42C
1st Aug 2013, 15:12
Chugalug, teeteringhead, Wander00, and MPN11,

May I join you all in your tributes to a very great and well loved gallant gentleman. Speaking as one who has always been capable of forgetting the name of someone who'd been introduced to me five minutes earlier, his memory was truly phenomenal.

He saw me, briefly, when I arrived at Manby in late July '55, and did not set eyes on me again until the Autumn Ball at the end of September. At the tag-end of a very long reception line, where he had been greeting the hundreds of guests before us, he recalled without prompting my name and the fact that I was newly married to the Mrs D. by my side. We were enormously impressed.

Truly: "There were Giants in those days".

Wander00
1st Aug 2013, 15:33
Had a not dissimilar experience whilst still in my first year at Cranditz, and was recognised by name by AC Alan Deere, the new Assistant Commandant - frightened me to death - thought I was in the poo.

HughGw01
2nd Aug 2013, 21:36
Hi Danny, one of those straight in from school SSC young controllers who arrived at Leeming in Dec 69, aged 19 1/2 to be sent straight on leave for Christmas. Returned in the New Year to be trained by you and other stalwarts such as M Plt Bill Ledsham. A tall lanky young officer criticised by SATCO in my first 1369 for an un-officerly, un-military air and tendency to lean on the nearest wall, door jam or whatever!

I recall being taken to Teesside for a liaison visit in an elderly Peugeot with an electric clutch and shown the repaired hole in the OM wall.

We certainly ran CADF QGHs with all the Speechless NCNG shenanigans etc. I recall one night SCT session when 3 QFIs queued up in turn for Speechless QGHs and by the time the last one was about to be handed over to Director the first one had come round again as Speechless 4. Fun though and a bit of banter was allowed providing SATCO wasn't listening too closely.

Like MPN11, I recall mixed CRDF/CADF times at Leeming, only once, when a Swedish Flying School exchange who brought their Saab 105s to fly with the 3 FTS JPs. the Saabs were on VHF and with altimeters in metres as opposed to the JPs on UHF and flying at FLs. We did benefit from the wondrous "minicoms" system though with proper headsets by my time there.

We were carefully inducted by the "old and bold" as you all appeared to this young man anyway and hopefully were a bit better for it. Certainly I was a Supervisor in 72/3 ish before going back to Shawbury to instruct in 74.

Goodness, memories.

Danny42C
2nd Aug 2013, 23:02
It was a warm summer Sunday morning in '56; our little RC chapel (served from Louth) was packed with holidaymakers for the (one) Mass of the week at Mablethorpe. There was no point in asking for a volunteer server for Fr.McEnery. In my boyhood town of Liverpool, I would have been deluged with offers: every Catholic man would have served his stint as as altar-boy. Not to know how to do this was a badge of shame. But here, in the wilds of Lincolnshire.....things were different.

If you want a job doing.....I was in full kit, cottar and soutane; coming to the end of the Sermon I saw it. The doors at the end of the church were open for coolness: through them strolled the Cat. Casting disdainful glances to left and right it strolled slowly and majestically up the aisle.

The congregation reacted in true British style: they closed their eyes in prayer or buried their heads in their Missals and tried to pretend it wasn't happening. Not one of them had the gumption to get up, grab the cat and throw it out (my wife didn't see it until it almost reached the altar rails). The Credo was reaching the end, the cat was getting near to them with the obvious intent of strolling between the pillars and joining us on the altar steps.

This could not be. I abandoned my post, leaving the celebrant to sort out his own water and wine, opened the altar gate and scooped up the intruder. The Cat made no attempt to struggle or object, but reclined passively in my arms and looked at me in a sort of quizzical enqiry. I took it out into the garden outside and bade it begone. Tail erect in contempt, it stalked off. I closed the church doors and returned to duty.

When we came out after Mass the Cat was still there. It was a glossy young tabby, obviously in peak condition, and (I suppose it must have caught my scent) came over to greet me as an old friend. When we walked back home round the corner, it trotted along with us like a pet dog. We opened our front door, it hopped in ahead of us and started a careful inspection of the house. Finally it decided that the place would pass muster, it sat down on the hearthrug and carefully preened its fur. Then it looked up enquiringly: "What about my elevenses ?" "Poor thing must be hungry", said Mrs D. A saucer of milk was graciously accepted.

Local enquiries turned up no reports of any lost cat; the Police were not interested. We had, it seemed, got a Cat (or was it the other way round ?) First thing, the animal had to have a name. A cursory inspection revealed that we had a tom. With his ecclesiastical provenence, "Peter" seemed apt. Full grown, he would probably become as truculent as the "Tiddles" of Geriaviator's Khormaksar story, but still kittenish, he made an affectionate and amusing pet. He seemed house-trained, and not unduly destructive. As a scratching post he picked a kitchen table leg; I bound it round with hessian and left him to it.

As to rations, he was very picky when it came to canned cat food, but there was stuff on the market called "Felix" (in a yellow and black bag). These were hard and dry lumps, perhaps a sort of pemmican of various offals. It looked most unappetising tack, but Peter couldn't get it down fast enough - and it was cheaper than the tins.

Generally he was well behaved, but every few weeks he would go 'doolally', rather like the musth which periodically afflicts male Indian elephants (but without the aggression). On these occasions he would dash round the house like a (misguided) missile, seemingly unaffected by gravity as he could fly round all four walls of a room without touching ground (much like the m/bike "Wall of Death" riders at the Fairs of those days). The surprising thing was that he never knocked anything over, or dislodged a picture, during these paroxysms.

At the end of the summer I was detached back to Shawbury for the month long GCA Course at RAF Sleap. We went together to Shrewsbury, having found a little flatlet in Porthill. Poor Peter could not be left behind in Mablethorpe to starve, could he ? (in fact I'm sure he was completely streetwise and well able to look after himself). A little elastic collar was prepared for him with our Porthill address. We duly set out.

Sleap is a few miles north of Shawbury, the MPN-1 radar, on which we would be trained, stayed out there. For us to practise on, Marshalls supplied civilian pilots flying RAF Chipmunks from Shawbury.

Much more about MPN-1 next time.

Goodnight, Danny42C


Do not look a gift Cat in the mouth.

Danny42C
3rd Aug 2013, 17:53
HughGw01,

Congratulations on your First Post on this Best of Threads on the Best Forum in this Best of websites ! May it be the harbinger of many more to come, for I'm the last survivor on it (as it would seem) of that valiant band who Gained their RAF Pilot's Brevet in WW2.

As you know, many of our crowd took their talents and stories into the ATC Branch once their flying days were over, and as the Moderators have stretched the Thread to allow them and me to continue to ramble on on it, so I hope they will extend the same courtesy to you and others in this (and other Branches) who have chimed with our stories so well.

Best wishes,

Danny42C.

smujsmith
3rd Aug 2013, 20:16
Danny,

Your comment about many taking their careers onwards to ATC brings back a memory that may be worth sharing. I served as SNCO i/c Visiting Aircraft Support Section at Machrihanish in the early 80s. I'm an Airframe man by trade so when a Flt Lt Air trafficker turned up, with a private aircraft of his own (and a fine Pilots Brevet on his wooly pully). The aircraft type I'm struggling to recall, it was a single engined, gull winged French jobby as I recall. Anyway, said Flt Lt, name was Dave *********, asked if we could house his aircraft through the week in our huge empty hangar (no probs) and if he had any snags could we advise (no probs). Ahh, there was a prob, our boss was a W.O. armourer, with no sense of humour, comradeship or basically sense. Rants and raves about, the pollution of the hangar floor by engine oil, solved with a drip tray, etc drove us mad. But we looked after the kite, and put up with the W.O.s Red Setter crapping all over the place, and having to clean it up for his inspections. Anyway, I know that Dave had obviously earned his wings, was a more than competent pilot. As I approached the end of my tour I was posted to Waddington on the Nimrod AEW, and, luckily was able to be allocated a married quarter before arrival. I moved my family down to Waddo, and was grateful to Dave for his offer of lifts at the weekend. He flew down to Cranwell most weekends and had no probs dropping me off at Waddo on the way, picking me up on the Sunday afternoon.

So, my last weekend trip home before posting and I get to Waddo on time, in taxies Dave and off we head north. As we get further north, the headwind became so strong that Dave had doubts that we had enough fuel to get back to Machrihanish. The weather was now deteriorating badly and it looked like Machrihanish was beyond his minimums anyway. We diverted to Prestwick, where after a landing that nearly ended up with the aircraft on its nose, we pegged it down and spent the night at Daves parents, they lived locally and kindly found me a bed for the night. The next day we flew back in good weather to Machrihanish, where I was put on a charge, by the W.O. for being "absent from my place of duty". The charge was thrown out unsurprisingly, but I often think of Dave, when I read this thread. The Controller with the Brevet was a most obliging man to someone who had looked after his aircraft for some time. I wish I could remember the aircraft type, I'm sure I've seen the odd one or two around recently since Lyneham closed. Keep it going Danny, its all worth knowing.

Smudge :ok:

Ian Burgess-Barber
4th Aug 2013, 07:59
Smuj

Jodel light aircraft have the distinctive "bent" wing - later variants were built by S.A.N. (Societe Aeronautique Normande). Have a quick Google and see if one of them fits the bill.

Ian

smujsmith
4th Aug 2013, 08:56
Ian,

That's the one a Jodel D112 I'm pretty sure, just like this one:

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/image_zps40a363df.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/smujsmith/media/image_zps40a363df.jpg.html)

In fact the one in this photograph could have been that aircraft. Thanks for the pointer to that, I think I had a bit of brain fade.

Smudge :ok:

thing
4th Aug 2013, 10:08
Similar at Deci I defuelled Hotel as requested to allow the droppers to be removed with hand held Crux bars.... Lots of swearing later by Armourers Chief and threats of tech charges as tanks were full when released with gravity taking over the removal process.... Looks out window and points out that the aircraft in question wasn't Hotel.... Sheepish apology ensued.

Wasn't 3 sqdn in '78 was it? If it was I was one the who nearly had full big jug on his foot!

MPN11
4th Aug 2013, 11:04
Hi Danny, one of those straight in from school SSC young controllers ...

Hello Sprog :ok:

Good to see you here, and thanks for doing the Lossie posting instead of me :cool:

(PS: You have a PM - top right corner of the screen gives you the link)

Danny42C
4th Aug 2013, 16:36
We crossed the country to Shrewsbury and settled ourselves in Porthill. Daily, I had to rise early, cross the little footbridge over the Severn, up the "Quarry" to St.Chad's at the top, and down into town for the bus to Shawbury. Tranship to the crew bus to Sleap, where our trusty"Bendix" clonked and whirred ready for us.

If you want a complete description of the "Stephenson's Rocket" of GCAs, you cannot do better than Google up:

http://www.rquirk.com/cdnradar/cor/chapter21.pdf (double click).

by Whitehead and Batch, (link kindly found for me by Molemot in #4011 p.201, and as amended by my #4022 p.202).

So sit yourself down in front of my CRT (I have the Azimuth tube, the tracker, sitting at my left, has the Elevation one). First thing, I am not in front of my tube ! In those days, it was feared that the emanations from a CRT might be dangerous, as the visible spectrum was mixed with X-rays and all sorts of nasties, which might limit - or indeed dash - all your hopes of posterity.

A crafty solution had been found. Now, IIRC , the tube was mounted vertically, shining directly downwards through an half-silvered mirror set at 45°. Apparently the light (which is all I was interested in) was reflected back to me, the nasties went straight through harmlessly (or were stopped by the lead glass in the mirror ?)

(You may well ask why this information was not shared with the Great British Public, who in those days were glued to their "Goggle-Boxes" all evening till all that was left was the little spot in the middle. But it seems that, as they didn't have their noses an inch from the tube - which we did - they were reckoned to be safe. At least, no reduction in the birth-rate was observed that might be attributed to this cause).

My nose wasn't exactly on the mirror, but on the "Cursor" just above it. The boffins could give me a Plan Position Indicator (or a 40° segment of one), but hadn't yet worked out how to superimpose an electronic centreline to run between the "goalposts" of the Touchdown Markers. That came on later types.

So we had to do it the hard way. The Cursor was very like a transparent perspex school ruler, some 8in long and 2in wide. Down the centre of this was scribed a line. Mounted vertically close over your mirror, it was pivoted from the top, you adjusted it so that the top of the line was over the point of origin of the timebase.

But your truck is about 300 ft from the runway centre. You pivoted your Cursor to put your line over the Offset Marker, (level with the Touchdown Markers, but the same distance from the Runway as the Truck), and locked it. Now you've a line exactly aligned with your runway. The last bit was easy. The mounting incorporated a parallel-ruler sort of thing. You moved the locked line across until it ran between the Touchdown Markers. There's your Centreline. Job done, bring 'em on ?

No, not quite. It had to be dark in the Truck (remember when we had to draw the curtains to see the old "Box"?), and if your "tube" was bright it was sometimes hard to see the scribed line. No problem, a tiny pea-bulb in the top of the cursors would flood them with light and illuminate the line, so you could easily see it against the mirror.

Now that's "Talkdown" set up. What about "Tracker". This was much simpler. The elevation "sweep" was vastly magnified, so that an actual sweep of some 8° appeared on the tube as about 60°. Therefore your 3° glidepath would show as 22.5°. The cursor now was fixed at that angle, but could be moved sideways until the scribed line intersected the Touchdown Markers (viewed from the side). This was your Glidepath. Problem: how are Tracker's observations to be communicated to Talkdown while he is talking non-stop (as he must) and is glued to the blip on his own screen ?

Enter Heath Robinson. Tracker's cursor could move bodily up and down (while still maintaining the 22° slope). He had a little brass handwheel to do this. And the whole of his task was to twiddle this to keep his scribed line on the approaching blip. As he did so, a linkage moved a needle on a dial just to the left of Talkdown's tube. "Errormeter" was hardly an inspired name, but a needle showed "on glidepath", and, at 100 ft markings, up to 300 ft above and 200 ft (I think) below glidepath.

So now, if the cursors are set up perfectly, and the talkdown is perfect, and tracker is perfect, and the blips stay on the lines, what can possibly go wrong ?

It is never wise to offer Providence a challenge like that, see the next Thrilling Instalment.

G'day, folks,

Danny42C


You never know.

P.S. : My apologies to MPN11 and HughGw01, and any others whom I may have inadvertently misled. My tale of woe starts on p.113 here, not p.115 as mistakenly stated. (call it a Senior Moment - or "brain fade" ?)

MPN11
4th Aug 2013, 16:59
Danny, that explains why I heard/read about xxx feet above below the glide path, when the MPN11/CPN4 and subsequent flashy modern gear couldn't do it.

Oh, those early days of dark GCA Trucks. I shall burble about that at some later moment ...

Danny42C
4th Aug 2013, 19:02
Ah, the Good Old Days ! All we old-timers go misty-eyed when we think back to the halcyon times of the Trucks. I could write a book, but will await your nostalgic recollections and perhaps add a few of my own to them.

Burble on - we're all ears !

Cheers, Danny.

Chugalug2
4th Aug 2013, 19:34
Danny, thank you for describing "how it was done" so graphically. The means by which tracker told Talkdown how the customer was performing vertically was both simple and ingenious, given as you say all the talking had to be done by the latter. I've been Googling around to try to find a picture or diagram of the set up but no luck yet.
I have come across this though, yet another Canadian contribution (are they more caring of their history than we?), which lists the UK airfields "Bendixed" during WW2:-
http://67.69.104.76:84/rcaf-atc/other/other/other-16n.html

MPN11
4th Aug 2013, 19:40
Web info on the GCA Trucks is dismally thin. I found one picture of the inside, which was about as informative as The Sunday Sport.

As you say, chugalug2, a shame nobody seems to keep proper records. Perhaps CATCS at Shawbury has something, like an old copy of AP3357 (Manual of GCA), and could post some pictures. I shall try to poke them, if there's real interest.

Molemot
4th Aug 2013, 19:55
The civilian world had similar televison systems...rear projection TVs giving large pictures from small but bright ( and thus emitting all sorts of unpleasant particles) CRTs. The tube was mounted vertically and a mirror was used to reflect the light to the screen.

1947 RCA Model 648PV Rear Projection Console Television - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xnMTLoc9fZc)

Chugalug2
4th Aug 2013, 20:14
Here's some light reading for Danny and yourself MPN11 :) :-
http://www.jlab.org/ir/MITSeries/V2.pdf
Our interest begins at page 327 (ie GCA) but there is an amazing picture at 203 showing aircraft formations coasting out from Southern England and coasting into the Cherbourg Peninsula on D-Day. I'm afraid that the pictures leave much to be desired in clarity but the whole pdf file can be downloaded and saved to PC (or even an ebook). The counter at the top seems to be synchronised to the books page numbers (for a change!) while scrolling down at the RHS.

Danny42C
5th Aug 2013, 02:00
Chugalug,

Thank you for the two links. The first (more Canadian experiences) is very interesting. It would seem that the original MPN-1 came in more than one design. There are things mentioned that are quite outside my experience. The Search PPI has a range quoted at 40 miles. I think our max was 20. Then the dual-range PAR tubes (10 and 3 miles) were certainly not in our trucks, and I know nothing about them. And the antennae servos for the PAR were operated by foot pedals ??? The mind boggles !

The precision sweep on later (CPN-4 and PAR) was electronically produced on the tube. But the MPN-1 moved the whole waveguides bodily by a sort of big Meccano. This caused a regular one-sweep a second "heart-beat"- inside it was like being in the engine room of a tramp steamer. After a while you got so used to this that you didn't hear it any more.

What you did hear was the "Fast Scan" (4 sweeps/sec) that Talkdown switched in for extra accuracy in the last mile. Then all Hell let loose; "the joint was jumpin'", and as your desk top (and everything else inside) was on a 4° slope, you had to watch that your cup/mug and everything else didn't dance off onto the floor. (It was like your car "fast wipe" in heavy rain).

You might well wonder who was daft enough to design a thing like that. The answer is interesting. It seems that originally the elevation precision antenna was fitted so that it swept down to the horizontal with the truck level on its four hydraulic jacks (reasonable, as aircraft rarely fly underground, and then not very far).

But then the radar couldn't pick up the ground markers which you must have to set-up. And now the things were coming off the production line: it would be very expensive to halt it and redesign. Bright idea: why not tilt the whole truck a few degrees down on its jacks to achieve the same result ? Done, problem solved, all happy ?

Well, no. The shaft on the PPI waveguide was now out of vertical to the same extent, PPI tube useless ! Now what ? Again the ad hoc solution, saw shaft off at roof level, cut a suitable wedge off the truck top corner, fit universal joint in shaft, restore status quo. Now they'd "hacked-it", except that when you put the truck back on its wheels (for a runway change) it looked rather funny with a rotating Leaning Tower of Pisa up top. (And was it four degrees as I was told, or two, as the Canadians say ? Dunno, really).

As to the second link: if I ever finish it I'll know far more about radar than ever I learned at Shawbury !

I have reason to suppose you have a birthday some time this month, if so Many Happy Returns ! (if not put it down to Senile Decay - mine, not yours)....D

MPN11,

I fear the MPN-1 is a lost cause in the mists of the past now, we're unlikely to turn up much else about it.....D.

Molemot,

I remember seeing one in a Mess (Linton ?). Huge thing....D

Time for bed now. Goodnight, all. Danny.

MPN11
5th Aug 2013, 11:25
MPN11/CPN4 - the workplace.

And so you climb the external steps to the Ops Truck, heave open the heavy door, and close it behind you. You pass through/around the blackout curtain and … it is dark. Dark, as in almost pitch black, because those old radar displays were almost impossible to see except in a darkened environment. Stand still for a minute or so to adjust to the gloom: do not move, or you will bump into the Talkdown controller.

Eventually you can see - a bit. On the left are the three (two) identical operating positions, each provided with a search radar display at the top and a talk down display at the bottom. In front of each position is a tiny shelf some 8" deep, on which the controller scribbles things in chinagraph, or does the same on little plastic plaques. He can see to write, because at his right is a very small adjustable lamp, which emits the minimum glow possible - all else is darkness. (The controller can also tell the time - and to this day I wear my watch on my right wrist).

Everywhere else in the truck are dozens of odd panels, manual controls [many screwdriver adjustable] and odd access panels to the inner workings of the miracle of GCA. But how, you may ask, can they be found, or operated, in the dark? The answer lies here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_paint). Each control position is provided with a UV lamp on a long wander-lead (hanging to the right of the displays in the picture below). When waved around, a constellation of lights from the radioactive paint appears: words, buttons, switches suddenly glow in the dark for a little while, before fading to background illegibility/invisibility again. And, yes, we all wore radiation dosimeter badges (a mark of pride for real controllers) which were regularly exchanged at the Medical Centre, where they were checked to see if we would ever be able to breed a new generation of controllers.

Cosmetic considerations were irrelevant in the dark, so the assorted bits of kit were placed wherever necessary. However, if the lights were ever turned on, or the door and blackout curtain opened, one was aware that it all looked quite untidy! A bit of web-searching this morning turned up a (very) few photos … I reproduce here without permission, in the hopes that the original author(s) will accept they are being used in a good cause. There's another one I have seen but can't find again at the moment - still searching.

Later on one of us will surely expound on setting-up procedures, equipment controls and the dreaded "Truck Test" :uhoh:

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/mpn11_operating_bay_02_250pix.jpg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/mpn11_operating_bay_02_250pix.jpg.html)

Fareastdriver
5th Aug 2013, 13:15
And, yes, we all wore radiation dosimeter badges (a mark of pride for real controllers)

And what about the pilots?????? We used to spend hours behind instruments that would light up when you turned on the UV lighting.

Come to think of it we didn't need dosimeters, balls of steel looked after that.

dubbleyew eight
5th Aug 2013, 14:09
just occasionally you come up with a piece of historical information and can find nowhere to poke it into the historical consciousness.
well I'm going to poke this bit here. make of it what you will.

in a previous vocation I had care of an elderly ukrainian gentleman who opened up over a cup of tea. he explained the reason for something to me.

harken back to the dam busters famous raid on the german reservoirs. this is the raid that used barnes wallace's rolling bombs to demolish the dam walls.

in the book is mention that they struck heavy flak on one dam but on one of the next dams, despite being heavily fortified, not a shot was fired.
my ukrainian gentleman was one of those silent flak gun crews.
he explained to me that the ukrainians came to be in the german army because of a kind offer made by the germans. you either serve as troops or you get shot now. needless to say they all served as troops but with an obdurate streak.
in the weeks preceeding the dam busters raid the germans found themselves with a minor supply hiccup to the flak batteries in the area. they ran short of shells.
so the germans issued an order to the ukrainians that until further orders they were not to expend ammunition unless specifically approved to do so.
well the raid was a surprise which caught the germans unawares and it was over almost before anyone was aware that it was on.
so to a man the ukrainians on that dam wall followed orders to the letter.
they watched the bombers roll in on the approach, watched the rolling bombs release and skip across the water. when they realised what may happen they ran like hell.
my friend said that that night they were incredibly proud to have followed german orders to the letter.
when I attended him he had just had a massive brain tumour removed and was given just weeks to live. I have no idea what has happened to him since then.
an interesting answer to a mystery I thought.

26er
5th Aug 2013, 16:28
Reading you GCA operators describing the job reminds me, as a simple driver airframe, of courses I did at West Raynham, one of which was to refresh my IRE category in the spring of 1956. We were briefed on the godlike skills of the West Raynham GCA guys who were able to provide a special service to the needs of DFLS (Day Fighter Leaders School). I stand to be corrected after this long interval but they could cope with a mass of recovering fighters in this manner. Formations would be homed to overhead and then sent outbound, pairs starting their descent at ten second intervals which would put them twenty seconds apart inbound so at say 1500ft and 210kts they would be separated from the pair ahead by a little over a mile. The director would see them in the inbound descending turn and pass alternate pairs to two talkdown controllers, one controlling the first and third and the other the second and fourth pairs. In this way a squadron of eight Hunters, or even twelve, all short of fuel of course, could recover in the most expeditious way. The go-around procedure was to climb straight ahead to 1500ft and call Marham GCA for a straight in, their runway being more or less in line with Raynham's at about fifteen miles and the normal short pattern GCA being impracticable with no gap in the inbound traffic. It all seemed a good idea at the time until "The Raynham Incident" in July '56 when we lost eight aircraft and one pilot killed. The Marham GCA guys were in the coffee bar or somesuch, not in their truck!

Danny42C
5th Aug 2013, 16:31
MPN11,

This is exactly the sort of stuff I need ! I read it with great interest, but I've so much to write about the "Bendix", that I'll stay with that for a while (and there are some good stories to come). So let me climb into my MPN-1 and tell the tale in the same way. Up the little wooden steps, into the door at the end of truck. Don't remember any curtain, but not quite full dark inside, think there was some subdued lighting. The door was mostly left ajar (except when the air-con was on, obviously). Why would that be ? Think, obliging mech comes out of rest caravan with tray of tea, mounts wet wooden steps, is faced with closed door, all inside too busy to answer knock, tries to open with good hand...?

First on the left was a menacing access panel: "Danger - High Voltage - To be kept Closed at all times when Equipment Operating" (or words to that effect), probably with a skull and crossbones to lend emphasis. This warning was reinforced by a Safety poster stuck on the opposite panel to your right. This showed a coffin with the cheery caption:

"You'll end up in a Wooden Box
If you Jam the Interlocks"

Carefully skirting this, you came (on the left) to the two Director's PPI tubes, then the Tracker's display with his little wheel, and right at the end my place of business, Talkdown with Errormeter and his display. Now I have to think hard. On the right of my display I had a spring-loaded switch to the Squawk Box in Local. On the desk at the bottom was my three-way Transmit key: off-sprung on-locked on. Radio selectors somewhere. Fast Scan switch near Transmit key. And that's about it. Of course I'd have a direct-line phone to Approach, Director would have a monitor on Approach Channel. Behind me, the other side of the truck was packed with electronics which were no business of ours.

Confession is good for the Soul. I try to keep my Posts absolutely factual, but there's always a temptation to spice-up some irrelevant item. Before the Sherlock Holmeses among you get on to it, therefore:

The Man said he got in the back of the truck and sat on the left, didn't he ? We've all seen pictures of the outside of the truck, haven't we ? Left is the "hot" side, which looks at the aircraft. So the truck must lean that way. So he must lean that way too, so must his desk. Certainly his mug will dance about, but not off the desk, but towards the display (no, never heard of one tipping over yet).

I remember well the details given in the previous Post about CPN-4 - the two upper and lower screens in a set - the UV lights (I remember at Thorney, how our shirt-cuffs shone after laundry in something "Whiter than White") - Dosimeter badges ? Wot's them ? (we were expendable in '58-'59 , I have to suppose). More on them when I come to Thorney later.

Somewhere on Google/Wiki I've seen a shot looking into a MPN-1 through the back door, but can't recall where, and in any case it was very poor, couldn't see a thing.

Much to mull over here - thanks MPN11.

EDIT I:
26er

The West Raynham story was burned into the soul of every Air Trafficker of the day, for as it was told to me, it was the ATC cock-up of all time: a copybook example of How Not to Manage a Diversion. Seems the whole lot were thrown at Marham without warning or attempting to arrange an orderly flow, with the inevitable result.

As for the Two Controllers at Once: assuming Raynham had an MPN-1 (and I don't think any CPN-4s had come in then), two whole Precision approaches couldn't have gone on at once - apart from anything else you have only one Errormeter and no way can poor Tracker switch between two blips so quickly, even if two Talkdowns (who would need to be on discrete frequencies) could huddle together close enough to read the same cursor. So that's your Glidepath gone for a start.

What might have been possible was to use the two PPI (Director's) tubes to do simultaneous PPI talkdowns (step-down or continuous descent), but it would have been very inaccurate, and carry an enormous risk of misidentification.

Another fanciful possibility was for one Talkdown to do "short" (two-mile ?) runs, with Director (who would really have to be 'on the ball', as would Tracker) feeding them on at three mile intervals at (say) 500 ft.

I really have no idea, but I don't buy the "super Controller" bit. Perhaps Raynham had two MPN-1s ? (Doubt it).

EDIT II,

MPN11,

Can't keep up ! Yes, that's the CPN-4 in all its glory. And the MPN-1 had us seated t'other way. No difference.

CPN-4 was touted as air-transportable. What did we have in '58 which could lift that ?

Danny.

MPN11
5th Aug 2013, 17:28
Lossiemouth CPN4 GCA … up the steps, turn left for the Ops Truck. Consoles on the left as you enter, precision antennae pointing away to the right [away from you in that photo]. Perhaps the MPN1 was laid out differently?

I'm sure our turntables/trucks were horizontal - and I think we could tilt the search antenna, which was dead posh. No spilt coffee, Sir :cool:

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/n10page16b.jpg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/n10page16b.jpg.html)

Chugalug2
5th Aug 2013, 20:38
Danny, many thanks for your Birthday wishes which I am glad to say are somewhat premature. The PPRuNe computer will count inexorably down to the next one, send its personal greetings and then click the meter under my tag over one more unit to mark the March of Time. But kind of you nonetheless.

Your description of the MPN-1 at full chat conjures up a picture similar to that of Compass Rose as Jack Hawkins puts it about in a heavy Atlantic sea with crockery et al sent flying. Who could have guessed that the unflappable voice giving the talkdown was doing so from a washing machine at full spin?
Your ploy of pairing description with MPN11 would seem to be a good one, so that the differences in set up and procedures are the better aired between these two generations (of the kit that is :-). I don't know if that will work out for you both though, it is of course as ever at the discretion of the authors.

Yes, sorry about the size of the "Principles of Radar" tome. There may be interesting snippets to be picked at though, for every possible system at that very early period seems to be covered.

dobbleyew eight, welcome to the fray and thanks for the interesting tale about the Ukrainian flak. "But there wasn't any, Holmes". "Exactly Watson, exactly".

MPN11
6th Aug 2013, 11:24
CPN-4 was touted as air-transportable. What did we have in '58 which could lift that ?


I gently prod one of your grey cells, Sir, and offer you the … Blackburn Beverley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackburn_Beverley) :)

Blacksheep
6th Aug 2013, 12:29
Ah the Blackburn Beverley. Usually we went to Valley by Beverley and to other places by Hastings. On one occasion we deployed to Macrihanish in a Beverley, carrying our own fire truck with us while theirs was broken. One wonders what would have happened had we crashed on arrival. :eek:

We regarded it as luxurious at the time. Glory days.

Here's the upstairs "Business Class accommodations. ;)
"

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8432/7839728036_75ffd16d88_b.jpg

MPN11
6th Aug 2013, 14:29
Your photo? May I post that on a forum somewhere else?

Fareastdriver
6th Aug 2013, 19:06
A good illustration of the hole in the floor that someone fell through coming out of the toilet even further aft.

A good one that has just been posted in Jet Blast.

'What is the similarity between air traffic controllers and pilots?
If a pilot screws up, the pilot dies; but If ATC screws up, .... The pilot dies.'
-Sign over Control Tower Door-

Danny42C
6th Aug 2013, 19:37
dubbleyew eight,

Marvellous story ! Welcome aboard ! All's grist that comes to the mill (pace the Moderators, of course).

I've always thought that Hitler's policy of forcibly enlisting his newly subject menfolk into the Wehrmacht could be a two-edged sword. Fine when things are going well, but when they start going wrong......(as we know to our cost from the Indian Mutiny - but at least our sepoys were all volunteers)......D.

Chugalug,

God bless the "Compass Rose", and all who sail in her ! It wasn't too bad, we quickly got used to it, and every later GCA was peaceful (apart from the roar of the generator truck next door).

I have to stick to one Station at a time to have any grip at all on my memories, and there's still two years of Strubby to go - which were not without incident ! At the moment, the new boy is looking at the "Bendix" at Sleap (and wondering: "in what nightmare was that dreamed up ? - one thing's for sure, it'll never fly !").....D.

MPN11 and Blacksheep,

Could a Beverley really stow and lift a CPN-4 (even just the business half ?) And what would you do about the tophamper ? (Seriously, would it have been remotely possible to take out the "business class" floor and still retain structural integrity - which surely would be the only way to get the giant giraffe into the aeroplane ?) And what were the lace curtains ? Hammocks, probably ? (I ask from genuine ignorance).......D.

Now, we've really got the ball rolling !

Goodnight, all, Danny.

PS. I offer you: "Oral History - John V. Diamond - The Radar Pages"
www.radarpages.co.uk/oral/jdiamond/jdiamond2.htm‎Cached (http://www.radarpages.co.uk/oral/jdiamond/jdiamond2.htm‎Cached)

Hope it'll work (I'm no good at this)...D.


EDIT:

Works for me; embodies a wonderful account of Strubby which I cannot better. But on the second page he gives an account of the Truck which is plain mistaken. Having directed you to the site, must point out the errors in one short section (my corrections in italics) to you lest you be misled.

(Note: it appears that CPN-4 is just a MPN-11 al fresco, as it were - out on the airfield. ACR7 was of the same kind: ACR7C was out in the cold, ACR7D nice and snug in the Tower).

************

Employment In Defence Of The Realm 1954 to 1959.

John V. Diamond

".....The equipment was MPN-11A. (No, MPN-1) It could run on mains (the Hundred Amp Plug) or from the diesel generator on the back of a 10-ton truck. (the "Matador") The radar and truck were never uncoupled as the truck was also the prime mover if we had to change runways. (AFAIK CPN-4 was never a Prime Mover and did not change runways - MPN-1 was and did)".

......"The airfield power varied from time to time so the diesel would become the primary power source. It would take two men to turn the motor over by hand (I seem to recall doing it myself, but that may be just a wishful memory) and to get enough speed to knock out the CRCVs (compression release valves ?) and fire the motor!".

"The rest room was a caravan coupled to a mobile workshop truck...... (Correct)"

and a bit later:

".....but to see the Lancasters taking off was spectacular.....(Lincolns, in fact)".

Having said that, Mr Diamond's wonderful memoir can serve as my "Introduction to RAF Strubby ('55-'58)" and I hope he will pardon my "lifting" the small section and my few niggles.

Danny42C

MPN11
6th Aug 2013, 19:55
Fareastdriver, you may be a beetch, or we may know each other. If that's late 60s, of course.

Declare your age, and station, and if it begins with T you are cool :cool:

ricardian
6th Aug 2013, 20:46
Danny42C - try this link (www.radarpages.co.uk/oral/jdiamond/jdiamond2.htm‎)

Blacksheep
6th Aug 2013, 22:07
Business Class was in the tail boom Danny: taking the floor up would have left one's feet dangling in what passed for a slip stream on the old beast. I don't know if your mobile radar unit would fit in a Bev, but we definitely had a Fire Engine in there. These photos will give you some idea.

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/408296-blackburn-beverley-albums-2.html#post7535865

Danny42C
6th Aug 2013, 23:27
ricardian,

Thanks ! Tried it, first said "oops, it's lost", clicked on Google Search, up came the goods !

Very worth while reading - but see the edit in my last Post.

Ta again. Danny

Danny42C
6th Aug 2013, 23:38
Blacksheep,

Silly me ! Thought first class was on upper floor in main building (like a 747) - (this is what comes of "shooting from the hip" !)

A fire engine - yes. But what if it has eight-foot horns sticking up on top ?

As always, will defer to the experts,

Danny.

Chugalug2
7th Aug 2013, 09:57
Danny, your Radar Pages link doesn't work because it is "cached", ie as stored on your machine, not live from t'net. So you get it but we don't. I think this should do the trick though:-
Oral History - John V. Diamond (http://www.radarpages.co.uk/oral/jdiamond/jdiamond2.htm)
Very interesting article, and very appropriately "period"!

Danny42C
7th Aug 2013, 13:53
Chugalug,

Thank you, as always, for your kind advice and assistance from my earliest days in that cyberspace in which I blunder about like a bull in a chinashop.

It's the Old Dog/New Tricks problem, I'm afraid !

By the way, did you have these net curtains/hammocks (?) in your Hastings and C-130s ? Are there no lengths to which the RAF will not go to pamper the pax ? In my day you had your shallow metal bowl to sit in in the Daks, and that's your lot. Kip ? - what's the matter with the floor ? (if you were lucky, you could grab a mailbag or two).

Happy days, Danny.

sycamore
7th Aug 2013, 15:04
Danny,bit of `sideslip` here,but Smuj will no doubt be along to regale tales of `hammock slinging`...I think it was/is the first important part of the GE`s Course..
There have been several occasions where GEs have not made it back to the crew accomodation as they have worked overnight to get `Albert` (C130) serviceable,and have been found peacefully snoring when the Flt Eng turned up..They were well known for cat-napping anywhere,even across bar-stools....!
Great bunch of guys,and now dolls ,even...

MPN11
7th Aug 2013, 16:36
Hammocks? Had a pleasant 2-day trip from Lyneham to Little Rock in a Herc, with my string hammock slung from the beams above the ramp. Bit cold [ice on the ac skin inside] but a very soothing swinging motion.

Anyway - back to Danny42c. It's his party right now. ;)

Danny42C
7th Aug 2013, 19:43
(This is taking me away from Sleap and my main thread, but that's my own fault, I started it, so I must tell the whole story)....D.

Of course the challenge was taken up; Providence put a hidden gremlin into the mix. After each "run", Tracker spins his little wheel down ready for the next customer. He would appear at the limit of range, say 7-8 miles. Director would have the aircraft down to 1500 ft at that point, at circuit speed, cockpit checks complete and three greens for landing (or whatever), ready for his handover to Talkdown at 6-7 miles.

But at 7 miles Glide Path is at 2100 ft, so Tracker's blip is so far down under that even at maximum depression he can't get his line onto the blip until, with the reducing range, the blip plods along (right to left) till it approaches the sloping GlidePath. * Then, as the range continues to close, he winds up steadily to keep his line exactly over the blip. That's all he has to do.

* ILS Glidepath needle (noted by one who has only ever "flown" them in the Link) behaves in a similar way.

Talkdown has one eye on his own blip, and the other on the Errormeter. When his blip first appears at limit of range, E/mtr needle will show at bottom stop. Then as range closes it rises steadily until at 50 ft below G/Path, Talkdown will say: "Do not acknowledge further instructions, you are five miles from touch down, commence descent at your normal rate of descent" - and the game's on, to end (you both hope) 2½ minutes later with the rubber on the runway and another Satisfied Customer. Our Gremlin bides his time.

He is crafty beyond belief. Unerringly he goes for the weak point - the Tracker's cursor. (Surely not !) After each run, Tracker spins the little wheel down. Sometimes (repeatedly ?) it hits the stop with a bit of a bump. The pea bulb in the cursor may be jerked just a wee bit out of position. This may introduce a danger out of all proportion to its insignificant cause.

The light is, as it were, "contained" inside the cursor, but behaves in strange ways. With the pea bulb dead centre, the scribed line should get all the illumination, the top and bottom edges remain unlit and invisible (or at least faint) over the tube. But if it's out of position on Tracker's cursor? A case can arise (and cases had arisen at Sleap) in which the top or bottom edge of the Cursor was so much more brightly illuminated than the scribed line that it could easily be mistaken for it. It was not uncommon for two lines to appear at the same time; Tracker could interpret these as top edge over scribed, and so follow the lower, whereas what he was actually seeing was scribed over bottom, and he was following that.

Suppose this went unnoticed in the darkened Truck, what would be the effect ? Tracker would wait for his next blip as before. His false line is lower than the true one, so the blip would meet it sooner (by about half a mile, but that need not worry him, the aircraft is not always exactly at 1500 ft when it appears). Talkdown's E/mtr would bestir itself a bit early, no cause for alarm, the system should easily accommodate a bit of deviation if it is properly set-up.

Now the situation would develop with all the inevitability of a Greek tragedy. Everything would look and sound absolutely normal to any observer. The aircraft continues on the G/path - E/mtr says so. Talkdown is happy, Pilot is happy.

But he's on a false glide path - about 150 ft below the true one. If he continues on it, head down in cockpit on instruments until told to "Look ahead for the Runway" (as a good Pilot should be), he will touch down among the approach lights about a half-mile short of the threshold. And no one can work out why.

Ring any bells, anyone ?

From an armchair, it is easy to pick out "Why didn't"s. Why didn't Tracker see that his line no longer met ground at touchdown, but half a mile before, while Talkdown is saying "you're on the glidepath ?" (but Tracker's orders are to keep the line on the blip, nothing more, all the time - he is to mind his own business, and nobody else's).

Why didn't Talkdown query the aircraft height when it looked to be meeting G/path half a mile too soon ? (why should he, talk-down would last about 15 seconds longer, but that was all).

IMHO, it could all so easily have been avoided. That was the real tragedy.

More about that next time, to round off a story in which four good men had died.

(I must make it clear that my attribution of this cause to the accident in question is entirely subjective - I cannot prove it, but I firmly believe it, and it was a belief shared by all the Sleap instructional body at the time).

Goodnight once more, chaps,

Danny42C.


For the want of a nail.....

smujsmith
7th Aug 2013, 20:27
Sycamore, thanks for that (mate) I feel obliged to produce a small diversion. ;)

Life in the hammock.

I learned, very early, In my career as a Ground Engineer that a hammock was an essential item of increasing your operational efficiency. Many was the pond crossing, 12 plus hour leg et al where, landing with a minimum 14 hour ground time produced snags, which ensured that I would not see the back of that particular airfield until departure, with my rested crew. I offer one, recollection of a route of my own, where the hammock proved the saviour of the Queens shilling.

I was tasked, mid Gulf War one, to a trip to Travis AFB, California (I had never been to California). Our job was to collect and return some of the latest Sidewinders available (I believe they delivered a head on attack capability). Routing was Lyneham - N/s Gander - Travis (24 hrs crew rest) - Gander - Lyneham. Funny thing, this was a "rest trip" from having already spent 30 plus days in theatre, and due back to Riyadh less than a week of return from this. I was knackered. All went well, until we landed at Travis AFB, home to Lockheed C141, where on landing the Flt Eng informed me that the "Cargo bay conditioning pack was not working very well", and of a couple of other minor snags. Off went the boys to downtown wherever, and I, having had a lovely 9 hours of hammock, set to the snags. The main prob was the cargo bay pack, I had a replacement for the broken FCSOV (Flow Control and Shut Off Valve) but no sealing gaskets in the Fly away pack, sadly I have to admit I failed as a decent GE because I should have had them in my bits and bobs bag. Anyway, a bit of walking round the airfield, arrested twice and finally bumping in to a C141 Crew Chief lead to my acquiring the bits I needed. I put it all back together and fixed the other bits and bobs. The crew arrived, 2 hours before our "on time", take off time. I had the Flight Eng run the GTC and run the Cargo pack to leak check the FCSOV. All well and as I'm putting the panel back on, a thing the size of a humming bird alighted on my left arm and stung me. It looked like a wasp, but about 5 times the size we get in blighty. The royals arrive just after, all is well and we zoom off into the atmosphere to get the cargo home.

As we could not make Gander direct from Travis, a refuel stop was scheduled at Offutt AFB. The Loady woke me top of the drop in to Offutt, bugger, my left arm was twice its normal size, in fact to relieve the pressure I had to cut through the arm of my growbag. We landed, Nav says "I'm taking the GE to sick quarters, this thing is looking bad". Flt Eng says, I'll do the refuel etc, Captain and Co go to ops to Flight Plan. Long story short, I, the GE get grounded by the USAF Doctor for 24 hours. On return to the aircraft the Nav explains this to Captain, who says, "OK, I'll ring ATFOC (Air Transport Fleet Operations Cell at HQ Strike (Commonly known by crews as Fatcock)) and we will be leaving the GE here. The Flt Eng can do the servicing at Gander and back to Lyneham on time". On return from Ops the Captain, looking a bit nonplussed, says that Fatcock said to remain with the GE and take the 24 hour hit, depart after the 24 hour delay and flag (refuel stop) Gander for Lyneham. I never heard of an aircraft being delayed for a GE, and have to say that the Captains first suggestion made good sense, however, mere mortals down route must obey the mighty Fatcock.

On arriving at our hotel, and being full of "big wasp" venom, along with about 5 jabs and 10 or so pills, I turned up in the bar for the crew "wind down beer". I believe I got around half a pint down before I fell off the bar stool. For me, Offutt was a crap night stop (I bet Beagle knows better from Vulcan days). I was cleared to fly the next day and we set off. I wore my growbag with one sleeve missing, and slept most of the way back home in my hammock. I did do the turn round and refuel at Gander. I did do a straight 24 hrs from landing to take off at Travis on that trip, which may have made my ability to resist the sting from the big Wapppity a bit dodgy. But for me, and the rest if the crew, it was a hell of a long trip. I could relate many more times when the simple hammock allowed me to be fit and ready to work on arrival, and, allowed the aircraft to depart on time. The hammock, like the GEs wallet is a mysterious device !!!

Now, back on thread with Danny. Apologies for the diversion, I plead a slight challenge earlier.

Smudge:ok:

clicker
7th Aug 2013, 20:52
sycamore,

You brought back a memory for me.

Back in the early 80's I worked for a civil american airline (Transamerica) which operated C-130's, well the L100 version to be more correct.

Now us folk in ops were allowed to odd fam trip and I got given one which was a nice run around for a few days. BCAL (as pax) to Frankfurt followed by the L100 Frankfurt-Cairo-Amsterdam-Gatwick.

So clicker gets to Cairo in the aircraft carrying some electrical gear. We get on the parking spot and await the offloading crew, and wait, and wait until finally they turn up. By this time flight deck crew have been fast asleep for a few hours. Again after a long wait the cargo is off loaded although I spend most of the time making sure the loadies don't raid the crew supplies.

Next is to load a cargo of green beans back to Amsterdam and so the Loadmaster and I wait and wait etc (you know the drill now) and at long last it turns up. Now Egyptian loadies are not known for their thinking and most of our time is spent rearranging their efforts in order to keep within C of G limits and where I was shown how to roughly check it was OK using a fag packet and the nosewheel strut (packet fits with lots of room=tail heavy and can't fit in gap=nose heavy).

By the time this has finished there's only a couple of hours left of the 14hr crew rest so we both go to the hotel to wash, change and back out to the airport.

Now all the time we are there the aircraft is guarded by the Egyptian armed forces, who like the loadies were more interested in nicking food and fags from the aircraft.

We get to the aircraft and among others there is a squadie, with AK47, standing between props 1 & 2 which the crew want to start. Micky, our Loadmaster is standing in front of the engine pointing to the props and making circles with his hand. Abdul stares at him. More circles, more staring. Finally Micky decides more positive action is required and grabs Abdul and pulls him away. Abdul gets slightly annoyed and goes to unsling his AK47. Captain takes note and so starts both engines, albeit against normal op procedures. Abdul then twigs how close he was to getting a good number 1 haircut and decides the ramp is not the place to be and legs it. We all decide that if he gets into the next Olympics he's going to beat Seb Coe hands down.

We are now up at FL190 when number 2 decides it didn't like the earlier treatment and wants to overheat. That results in a diversion to Athens and a 3 hour stay on the ground until a herk engineer is found and problem sorted.

Clicker is now knackered and wanders back to the cargo hold, rests his clapped out body onto a few cardboard boxes of green beans and falls asleep completely ignoring four noisy Allison engines a few feet away.

That was my only ops trip in 7 years service!

Danny42C
7th Aug 2013, 21:29
Smudge and clicker,

After those two harrowing tales, I take back all my unthinking words about hammocks - they were wholly out of order ! (my words that is, not the hammocks).

Smudge, a similar thing happened to me in India. We were bouncing along in the back of a truck. Of course the back was wide open, and I was wearing shorts. Some sort of superwasp, double normal size - probably a giant hornet of some sort - was sucked in by the backdraught, landed just above my left knee, and (quite unprovoked) gave me both barrels.

Like you (but not as badly) I was laid low for a day or two, and for at least twenty years afterwards a small red mark (like a small birthmark) stayed on the spot. But as our shorts were loosely cut, and nobody wore underwear, it might have been far worse !

Danny.

smujsmith
7th Aug 2013, 21:46
Danny,

I doubt I suffered more than you did. I've just checked and the red spot of its sting is still on my forearm now. I remember swiping the thing off and seeing a white "pumping" lump still there pushing the venom in. The USAF doc told me it was some form of Hornet. This gives you an idea of the size:

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/image_zps651357fe.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/smujsmith/media/image_zps651357fe.jpg.html)

I do know if I hadn't had the hammock rest I'm sure I would have been in worse shape. Sorry to go "off thread". More radar and approaches please sir.

Smudge :ok:

Danny42C
7th Aug 2013, 23:51
Smudge,

Now I'm going to have a nightmare ! No more horrors, please ! Bring out the "Raid" !

Danny.

thegypsy
8th Aug 2013, 13:08
Danny

First Class on all the B747's I have been on are on the lower level. Going up the stairs is for the plebs in Business Class. Noisier up there as well IMHO

Danny42C
8th Aug 2013, 14:00
thegypsy,

Touché ! You're quite right, of course ! (Danny has never been able to afford anything other than Steerage - and not likely to now, either)

D.

Chugalug2
8th Aug 2013, 15:06
Danny::-
By the way, did you have these net curtains/hammocks (?) in your Hastings and C-130s ? Are there no lengths to which the RAF will not go to pamper the pax ? In my day you had your shallow metal bowl to sit in in the Daks, and that's your lot. Kip ? - what's the matter with the floor ? (if you were lucky, you could grab a mailbag or two).

Net curtains? Net curtains? We were rufty tufty tactical Medium Range Transporters (MRT) I'll have you know. I should make your enquiries of the "Strategic" transporters. No doubt one of their many role changes included the items in question. :ok:

On the Hastings we could role from trooping (50 rearward facing seats) to casevac (32 stretchers, 28 sitting, 3 nurses, 1 doctor. [sounds like a song we know, doesn't it boys and girls?]) to Para (30 troops, 2 despatchers on folding "bench" seats along the cabin sides with staggered exit doors on either side) to freight/supply dropping from the stripped cabin (usually dropped from "H" boards manually lifted at the port para door). In the latter case after all supplies (including 40 gallon fuel drums) had been dropped the bare floor afforded a functional rest area for the strapping Air Despatch Regiment guys exhausted from continually working the loads down to the door against the tight turns required in narrow jungle valleys. All in all a similar setup to your Daks, Danny. Indeed when the cousins enquired "What the hell sort of airplane is that?" it was usually explained as a "4 engined Gooney Bird".
As to the Herc, it was/is even more rufty tufty. The red canvas para seating (down the sides and if required back to back down the centre) is for all pax whether they be landing with us or not. With the thunderous racket from 4 Allisons right outside the cabin, 12-14 hour trooping flights were no picnic for the pax. Happily we were able to let them come up front in small groups for some blessed relief.

You'll have to ask a Bev man re your hammock/nets. My guess would be that they afforded some fore/aft restraint of para equipment that were to be carried/dropped by those jumping.

I could of course offer an alternative theory, that given the little or non-existent ground speed, when heading into the Mistral up the Rhone Valley, they afforded the opportunity for a spot of fishing. It is only a theory though.....:p

Danny42C
8th Aug 2013, 20:39
Chugalug,

As you see, I've eaten the hasty words I spoke (after hearing Smudge and clicker's tales of hardships nobly borne). It seems the things in question were hammocks, as I surmised. As you say, it was different in our day !

They looked just as comfortable as the ones provided to us for life on the ocean wave, and a good deal easier to take down and stow. Bit draughty, though, with all that ventilation. And were blankets, sheets and pillows also issued ? (just joking !)

They never had it so good. Now, in the old days, when we had wooden aeroplanes and iron men.................

Danny.

Danny42C
9th Aug 2013, 17:46
The trouble was that this snag was so easy to fix. Off with the cursors onto the bench, out with a half-round file. File a "deckel-edge" along both sides of the cursors. Now you can't confuse it with the central line. The "mod" was so quick and easy that no one saw any need to put it up for official adoption.

The word quickly got round all the MPN-1s in the RAF and you just did it. After the Sleap GCA School, which first recognised the fault, the two MPN-1s I later worked (Strubby and Gatow) had this "mod" done before I got to them. But there was an MPN-1 which (AFAIK) hadn't. And I believe it wasn't a "Bendix", but was from another maker, but exactly to the same pattern.

This was the one at Heathrow. They had ILS, of course, and I would think that 99% of their traffic preferred this. Not that their GCA was idle, far from it. It was used (on the "belt and braces" principle) to monitor the ILS approaches. If the approaching aircraft were coming in too far adrift, they'd give Approach a shout. They'd done thousands of such "dry runs" over the years this way, but relatively few "real" ones. And their cursors had not been "modded".

I do not know why this was so. Their GCA was operated by the MCA, or the MoA or the BoT, or whatever. Either the RAF had not told them about this, or they had pigeonholed the advice (as being Not Invented Here ?). Our gremlin waited.....One Day.

The day came on 1st October, 1956. The Vulcan which had been out to NZ and back on a flag-waving mission had behaved perfectly; our friends had been heartened and our foes dismayed. It was returning home now in a blaze of glory. The co-pilot was Air Marshal Sir Harry Broadhurst, newly appointed CinC of Bomber Command.

Mindful of the enormous cost of the new Vulcans to the hard-pressed taxpayer, he had recently issued a fiat: "There are to be no more flying accidents in Bomber Command". A poster was issued round his Stations to that effect (this I would not believe until I saw one).

"Ah, luckless speech and bootless boast
For which he paid full dear". (Cowper: John Gilpin's Ride)

The original plan had been that it should return without fuss to Lyneham. You never know, it might have disgraced itself, and be coming home under a cloud. But now all doubts were stilled, here was a fine photo opportuity for the Government to seize. It would come in to Heathrow and get the full red-carpet treatment, and be welcomed by the Great and the Good. All the freeworld's air attachés, their Press and cameramen were invited; this triumph of British aeronautical engineering would be displayed for all to see.

The Vulcan had ILS, of course, but this had to be re-tuned to each of the airfield's ILS it might need to use en route. This was then not a matter of merely punching a button or twiddling a knob. Separate discrete crystals had to be manually fitted at every stage. Of course, they had set out with a full kit of crystals for all the airfields on their itinerary, plus likely diversions. But it had never planned to use Heathrow: they didn't have the crystals for that, and for some reason (short of time ?) they couldn't get them now.

No problem, we'll use the GCA if the weather's bad. And it was, and they did.

Google will tell you what happened.

("Vulcan Crash Heathrow" will start you: there is interesting meat in all the links in the list, but I found it helpful to start with:

"VULCAN AIRCRAFT CRASH (REPORT) - Hansard 1803-2005").

and read in conjunction with my previous Post #4126 p.207, in particular:

("he will touch down among the approach lights about a half-mile short of the
threshold. And no one can work out why").

Post mortem and wrap-up and my comments (for what they're worth) next time,

Cheerio to all,

Danny42C.


...........the horse was lost

MPN11
9th Aug 2013, 18:12
Interesting, and indeed profoundly interesting :eek:

I have much re-reading to do (wading through wheat and chaff). Dons tin-foil hat for safety in these days of H&SW and all that. Damn, I was planning a quiet weekend!

cockney steve
10th Aug 2013, 11:50
Thank you W8, for post #4107.
What's the chance of another Ukranian survivor being able to pass that eye-witness account to an English-speaker? 100%of buggerall, i'd suggest!
You all have so much fascinating detail that makes the past come alive..keep it up!

dubbleyew eight
10th Aug 2013, 12:56
I'm about a hundred pages back in the reads but somewhere there there was a question about which checklists were used back then.
I may not have got to the answers that were given yet but I can give an answer from my flight training days (all ex WW2 RAAF flight instructors)

They didnt use checklists in WW2.

What they used were the pilot handling notes for each aircraft. These are the sorts of things you can buy as reprints in the shops tacked on to all the british aviation museums. a guy would study the guide for all the needed info. stall speeds, rpm settings and anything peculiar to the aircraft.
The guy would then sit in an aircraft for a while and work out where all the doodads were and where all the switches and taps were.

when you were seated in readiness to go flying the guy would start from one side of the cockpit and just methodically work across the cockpit turning everything off. when he got to the other side of the cockpit he would then methodically work back to the start setting everything in readiness for flight.
after the startup he would do a "ROGER" check
Revs to a thousand
Oil pressure showing signs of life
Gyro suction showing some activity
Electrics turned on
Radios on and set to frequency.
he would then taxy out to the warmup point.

this simple approach was used in the flying of all allied WW2 aircraft.

since the mid 70's in australia we have had to use checklists, endless checklists. It may be chastening to people to realise that BUTMPFISCHH is actually the left to right scan of a Tiger Moth.

When I finally got clear of all my instructors I reverted to the old wartime method of handling my aircraft because it is just so much simpler.
anyway answer number two. resume own navigation.:ok:

MPN11
10th Aug 2013, 14:18
In my early days as an RAF ATCO, Local was always provided with Pilots Notes for all the aircraft types on the station ... For the benefit if the Duty Pilot or any exec who might need to refer to them.

They made valuable reading, during quiet times, for ATCOs. It gave us a good idea of what was going on up there, particularly in the context of emergencies and what they might imply. Anyone recall "turret drive failure" on a Hunter? It didn't make us pilots, but it sure helped some of us Direct Entrants provide a better service.

Danny42C
10th Aug 2013, 17:41
dubbleyew eight,

Seventy years ago, once you had wings, they gave you the Pilots' Notes and a strange aeroplane and said "Here y'are lad, get on with it !" (Except Vultee Vengeance, when you just got the aeroplane).

We had a fit-all mnemomic for landing: BUMPFFG (of which yours is a natural extension):

Brakes (Wheels - the only kind in our day)
Undercarriage (down)
Mixture (full rich - in case you wanted full power for overshoot)
Prop (full fine - max revs - same reason)
Flaps (as desired)
Fuel (enough to cope with all the missed approaches you might need, and then get to diversion)
Gills (open - to soothe heated brow of engine as little airflow on ground).

(There may be visitor from another planet who doesn't know that Official Paperwork = Toilet Paper = Bum-Fodder = Bumpff)

"Resume own navigation" - jogs the memory - thanks, W8 ! - will use that....D.

MPN11,

I quote: "It didn't make us pilots, but it sure helped some of us Direct Entrants provide a better service". You take the words right out of my mouth, Sir ! At that time we had plenty of Chipmunks, Tiger Moths and Harvards lying about, and dozens of poor old has-beens (like me), with thousands of hours' instructing under their belts (not me), still fit, mouldering away in Stores or SHQs throughout the land, who would have jumped at the chance of feeling the wind in their grey hairs just once more (and the Flying Pay wouldn't have hurt, either).

They could have stuck a month or two onto your time at Henlow (or whatever) and given you (say) 40 hours apiece, perhaps a PPL (as the MCA did with their lads & lassies at Bournemouth). Per head, it wouldn't have been more than than the annual maintenance of an Airship, and (dare I say) better value.

Know your Foe ! There is no better way of getting into Blogg's tortured mind than actually being Bloggs. Anyone who says that learning to fly is easy is a liar. It isn't.

You probably know that if you Google "Pilots' Notes" for many of the common old types, you may strike oil (if "Jever Steam Laundry" is on the menu, go for that).....D.

Cheers to you both, Danny.

MPN11
10th Aug 2013, 19:28
Dear danny42c ... Some of us kids were lucky to get glider tickets and a PPL through the Air Training Corps. Shame I couldn't afford to keep them current!

But even those trivial experiences gave us Child ATCOs a vague feel for what happens 'up there' .. and perhaps made us better ATCOs? I wholly subscribe to the idea of flying experience ... But those Defence Budgets are a bugger, these days.

Danny42C
11th Aug 2013, 01:29
MPN11,

A PPL is not an insignificant experience, my good Sir. You are every bit as much of a pilot as any hoary old Captain with 25,000 hrs (before he stopped counting) in his pile of logbooks.

The great divide is between those who have been lucky enough to have the chance to fly solo and those who have not had that opportunity. You will always be a pilot - in contrast to our new trade of drone drivers (whom I in no way belittle - I admire them for their sterling work - and maybe it is the way we are all going).

But they are not pilots (in the generally understood sense of the word) and it is idle to pretend that they are, or to badge them as such).

There is a Thread devoted to this topic, and I know I am out of order in Posting here, but I hope the Moderators will let it stay as I promise to be of Good Behaviour in future.

Danny

dubbleyew eight
11th Aug 2013, 05:18
there is a story that may have been an urban legend. it is of a spitfire that gets bounced by an ME109 that had a go but missed. story goes that this spitfire took him on and in some absolutely impressive flying downed him.
when the spitfire landed at the airfield it is discovered that the pilot is a lovely blond woman who was delivering the aircraft to the airfield.

you read them occasionally but is there any truth in stories like that??

BEagle
11th Aug 2013, 06:34
Anyone recall "turret drive failure" on a Hunter?

Yes - it meant that the main accessory drive had sheared and you would lose hydraulics and electrics....

No power controls - and no gennies. A scenario which was often practised in our simulator sessions. After sorting yourself out in Manual, you turned off as many electrical services as possible, then landed hoping that the brake accumulators had sufficient stopping power before a barrier engagement became inevitable - although the F6A, T7, FGA9 and FR10 did at least have brake chutes to assist!

Ian Burgess-Barber
11th Aug 2013, 09:18
Danny

"A PPL is not an insignificant experience"

Bless you Danny for making that point - of course, it takes a real pilot to know it!

IanBB

SomeGuyOnTheDeck
11th Aug 2013, 15:33
there is a story that may have been an urban legend. it is of a spitfire that gets bounced by an ME109 that had a go but missed. story goes that this spitfire took him on and in some absolutely impressive flying downed him.
when the spitfire landed at the airfield it is discovered that the pilot is a lovely blond woman who was delivering the aircraft to the airfield.

you read them occasionally but is there any truth in stories like that??

Highly unlikely. Aircraft on delivery flights carried no ammunition.

Danny42C
11th Aug 2013, 18:09
So many hares running here that it is a job to corral them.

dubbleyew eight,

Difficult to get the head round this one. If the Me. bounced him with malice aforethought and displayed, he was absolutely right to down it.

But the blonde was delivering it to (presumably his) airfield ? In which case it would have been a captured one, and would certainly have had a RAF escort to stop anyone "having a go" at it. And she had a go at him :confused: Weren't we all on the same side ? Seems funny to me.

Was a tale, again about a 109 on a lone sweep over our green and pleasant land, comes across Tiger Moth proceeding on its lawful occasions.

109 leaps on prey, Tiger hits the deck in a field with single oak tree, then does tight turns round tree at 0 ft; 109 can't get a shot in for fear of flying into tree or deck, gives up in disgust, leaves Tiger alone, goes off somewhere else. Tiger resumes normal navigation (There, knew it wouldn't be long before I managed to get that in !)........D.

BEagle,

Sounds a truly sad predicament ! Only thing I can remember was the "one in one" ATC recovery procedure for a flamed-out Hunter. Assuming wheels and flaps down, we reckoned one mile per 1,000 ft. So you tried to manoeuvre him into that position relative to the runway. Never tried it myself (ATC-wise, that is).......D.

Ian Burgess - Barber,

Bless you, my son ! (I can take any amount of this).....D.

SomeGuyOnTheDeck,

I think someone has got hold of the wrong end of the stick (and it ain't thee or me)......D.

Cheers, all, Danny.

PS: Next tranche of Dannysaga on hold for a day or two, as first draft, on second glance, proves load of rubbish (don't dare say it !)....D.

MPN11
11th Aug 2013, 18:16
Hi, Danny. Yes, the Hunter 1-in-1 was a 'fun' procedure. Until you got the guy to the right place (as you say, 1 mile per 1000 feet) your mental picture processing was going at 150% ... "What's your passing height?" endlessly, trying to get him to the magic spot. Don't even ask about trying to do one speechless!!

Danny42C
12th Aug 2013, 16:35
Before I start pontificating on this accident, and to avert accusations of the dreaded "sciolism", I must emphasise what I told Chugalug many moons ago, when this my tale was yet in its infancy. That is, I am not, and in no way hold myself out to be, any form of authority on this (or most other) subjects. It is nearly all hearsay and therefore not evidence.

I merely retell what I heard, or was told at the time (and the accuracy of my memory of even that cannot be guaranteed), or read in the newspapers. The only thing I am certain about is my description of the Truck interior, the CRT tubes and the Cursors (and the Funny Things which Happened on the Way to the Theatre). With that disclaimer firmly in place, I'll begin.

Reading the "Statement in the House", and the comment on the Dr.Touch report (did it ever see the light of day, or is it under some 50-year wrap ?), it seems to me that nobody had the problem by the throat. "Tracker" merits only one passing mention in the Parliamentary Report. There seems to have been some inconclusive references to what Talkdown said and when he said it (were there no tape recordings then, and was nobody monitoring his transmissions ? Was there no transcript ?).

Talkdown is totally reliant on his Tracker for Glidepath information. If there is anything wrong with that, go straight for the Tracker. I was told at Shawbury (and I think my Course lasted a week or two after the incident) that RAF Shawbury had tentatively offered the bottom-edge-of-cursor hypothesis to the CoI. But this was dismissed on the specious ground that the Tracker in question was highly experienced, having clocked up thousands of runs: it was inconceivable that such a person could commit so simple an error.

If this response from the CoI be true (and it rings true), then I can only say that it would not be the first time in the history of aviation, and it will not be the last, that such a thing has happened.

And now we have to take a look at the Heathrow MPN-1 (must have been that, as it had a Tracker) and how it was operated. From what I was told, it did almost all its "runs" in the ILS-tracking mode. Actual GCA approaches were few and far between, as naturally all the civil traffic inbound would go for the well-used and trusted ILS with which all its pilots were familiar. I would guess that the odd "full" GCA would only be on request from a RAF visitor, and even then only if ILS was not available for some reason (as was the case with our Vulcan).

It probably follows that they were well out of practice on the real thing. It made little difference to talkdown; he would be quite familiar with the ILS-following blips coming in at a slightly offset angle. But it was different for Tracker. If he fell into the bottom-cursor-edge trap (which, if the "deckle" had not been done, was more than likely), then the first time the E/Mtr reported "150 ft above glidepath", it would be passed via Approach to the incoming Captain, who would indignantly deny it, telling Approach that its ILS G/path must be "up the wall". The mechs would be hastily summoned to check the supposedly incorrect ILS - for this is very serious for Heathrow. Recriminations follow when it was found to be a false alarm.

When they got that sorted out, and the cursor error quickly discovered, Tracker would have his ears firmly pinned back. But in a "real" run there is no such "check and balance". We know what had been demonstrated in practice: now we had had the real thing.

All this begs a host of questions. Was there a radar alt on the panel ? If so, who was watching it ? Why were they in that pickle at all ? What about "Minimum Approach Heights" (or whatever we called them then ?). It is hard to avoid the conclusion that in the end it was a fatal case of get-home-at-all-costs-itis that was the proximate cause of the accident. The bottom-edge-of- cursor gremlin just tipped the balance, and sealed their fate. Without it, they might just have brought it off.

And I'm convinced that that's the way it was. And now it's nearly 57 years ago, Sir Harry is dead, S/Ldr Howard (the Captain) would be older than I, so he's almost certainly dead. Now the last crew of XA897 are together once more. R.I.P.

As for me: back to Shawbury and Sleap next time.

Goodnight, all,

Danny42C


"Resume normal navigation"

blind pew
12th Aug 2013, 17:01
Heathrow GCA
Danny I flew several GCAs into LHR in the 70s on the HS Trident..generally at night when things were quiet.
Re ATA..Joan Hughes was my instructor for my instructor's rating at Booker.
Wonderful lady and the most qualified member of the ATA.
She said that she loved to wind up the station commanders by halting in mid dismount and doing her lippy....

Molemot
12th Aug 2013, 18:22
I recall an anecdote told by Doug Bianchi, who built some of the replica aircraft for the film "These Magnificent Men". The replica Santos Dumont "Demoiselle" would charge about the airfield at Booker but would NOT leave the ground. Much puzzlement and sums....then it was realised that Santos Dumont had been a very small chap. So the word was passed to Joan Hughes..."Would you like to come and fly the Demoiselle?" "OH yes, dear.." said Joan..."I'll just get my handbag!" And it was in her capable hands that the aeroplane flew in the film!

Chugalug2
12th Aug 2013, 20:35
Danny:-
I told Chugalug many moons ago, when this my tale was yet in its infancy. That is, I am not, and in no way hold myself out to be, any form of authority on this (or most other) subjects. It is nearly all hearsay and therefore not evidence.

You may well say that Danny, but I can most certainly comment that you are held as a very reliable and informative authority on your subject by we avid followers of your posts. You dot the i's and cross the t's, so that time and time again we respond with a "So that's why that was", or " I always wondered why they did that, now at last I understand".
So it is with this terrible story of the LHR Vulcan. Your explanation certainly has the ring of truth for me, especially as you see it as a combination of causes; an intent to land for a very important RAF occasion, and a simple yet deadly weakness in this very first generation of GCA. Just one of those not being present might have avoided the outcome, but once again the holes in the infamous slices of cheese coincided and their fate was sealed.
For want of a deckle the aircraft was lost...

Wander00
12th Aug 2013, 21:28
Met JH once at White Waltham just after I had finished my Flying Scholarship at Sywell. Bunch of youngsters (still on FS about a month behind me I guess!!) saw diminutive lady walk through clubhouse. Young cadet says something along the line of "bet she is not a pilot". Loud hrrmph from senior club member who stalks through to office returns with book like family bible, puts is on table, hrrmphs again and leaves, saying "her logbook". Young cadet gingerly opens log book to see record of solo flights in everything from Spifires to Halifaxes. Bunch of embarrassed young cadets find their presence is required elsewhere. Diminutive woman was, of course Joan Hughes.

Fareastdriver
13th Aug 2013, 07:46
Hanna Reitsch was another diminutive women pilot. When the first V1s were spearing into the ground just after they had left the ramp she, because she was small enough, was strapped into a piloted version to see why.

After that all pilots were taught about gyroscopic precession when doing instrument take offs.

Molemot
13th Aug 2013, 09:25
I have always wondered how a V1 attained roll stability, as it has no ailerons or dihedral. A few years ago, I visited the museum at La Coupole, near St. Omer, and they had a V1 hanging in the reception area....and it had ailerons...strange, I thought. Then I moved around to the side and saw the cockpit...!! I spent quite a while looking at it...and the pulse jet intake immediately above it....thinking about Hanna Reitsch and her test flight in a similar craft.

Molemot
13th Aug 2013, 16:40
Danny...are you looking for a garden shed??

Shepherds Hut Project EX-RAF Mobile Air Traffic Control Tower Trailer | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shepherds-Hut-Project-EX-RAF-Mobile-Air-Traffic-Control-Tower-Trailer-/271249809567?pt=UK_BOI_FarmingEquipment_RL&hash=item3f27bfa09f#ht_1654wt_959)

smujsmith
13th Aug 2013, 17:16
Molemot, you tinker.

It needs all the electronics surely. But if he wants it I'm willing to help with the costs. Great spot. Over to Danny :uhoh:

Smudge:ok:

MPN11
13th Aug 2013, 17:16
Disturbingly chintz and un-military!!

Old Dispersal ground-crew facility?

Danny42C
15th Aug 2013, 18:19
Chugalug,

Thank you for the encouraging words, but it still remains true that the story is basically conjecture. Yet: "If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck.....!" The aircraft behaved exactly as our theory predicted, after all......D.

Molemot, Smudgsmith and MPN11,

I think I'll pass up on this one ! And thank you, Molemot, for the link to the picture. I can see that it might very well do as a shepherd's hut (or a climber's refuge if a chopper could get it up the mountain), or a seaside chalet (if you could get it past the Council). Otherwise I wish them luck with it.

More interesting is the question of what was it ? It has windows, so it's for people, not a radar truck. A rest caravan for an MPN-1 or CPN-4 ? No, they always huddled behind the Trucks out of danger from wayward landing aircraft (who'd always hit the Truck first), so they were left blue-grey. Ground crew at Dispersal ? Could be, but I think they'd be more likely to be left dull, too - as they wouldn't be on the grass inside the taxiway.

A Runway Control van ? No.., or so I thought at first. All the ones I recall were prime movers; when you want them at the other end ASAP, you can't be doing with finding a tractor, getting it out there, taking it down off jacks, etc, coupling up. Life's too short - and W/Cdrs (Flying) too irascible.

Then, roaming around the Net somewhere, I found a longer specimen than ours, but a towable 2-wheel caravan with some windows and the little glasshouse up top (on ours, I reckon it's hidden in the picture or been chopped off). I tried to copy the picture, but it wouldn't play.

So, for my money, that's our boy. (Is there a Runway Controller in the House ?).......D.

Mrs D. has just given me a haircut, so I'm feeling light-headed. Will pour a couple of large sherries.

Cheers to all, Danny.

HughGw01
15th Aug 2013, 18:38
Possibly a Gliding Club control caravan? Often they used old buses, single or double decker, but I'm sure I've seen something similar somewhere along the way.

Danny42C
15th Aug 2013, 22:49
HughGw01,

Welcome aboard this best of Threads in this best of Forums !

I do not think a vehicle of this sort would be supplied to even an RAF Gliding Club as original equipment. More likely picked up at a Disposal sale. The question is: what was it when it was in service ? (Someone out there will know).

Cheers, Danny.


PS TO ALL PRUNERS

These are the closing hours of VJ Day, 15th August 1945, 68 years ago now, when six years of war and his first five years of service ended for one who Gained his RAF Pilot's Brevet in those days.

To quote the Kohima Memorial:

"When you go home, tell them of us and say,
For their Tomorrow, We gave up our Today"

R.I.P.

smujsmith
15th Aug 2013, 22:54
Danny,

How fitting that a man of the time should mark it on our forum. RIP all, and thank you for your service.

Danny42C
16th Aug 2013, 12:08
There was only one Truck and so only one Talkdown position at Sleap. It must have been one-to-one instruction for that. As there are two Director positions in it, they could take two F/Sgts at a time and, IIRC, they were instructed in the basic way of operation, ie a Search and a Feed Director working as a team to present the next headache to the unfortunate in the Hot Seat. In practice, of course, when they returned to their Units, in almost every case, Approach (using the CR/DF) would replace the Search Director.

Now at some time in the past, I've said that they also trained Trackers, but now I'm not so sure. I don't remember any instruction going on at my left elbow, more likely there was just a Staff Tracker (and the limited space in the truck was already packed to bursting). It follows that Trackers must all have been trained "on the Job" at Units. Obviously a SATCO would pick his brightest ATC Assistants for the job.

Now who did the training ? I certainly don't remember doing it. One of the F/Sgts, perhaps ? As I've already shown, it was an extremely important task and I reckon was certainly worth Corporal (as was the Runway Controller already), but I don't think they even got any extra pay. (If any survive - and they would be 10-12 years my junior - and are reading this, please let us know).

Guessing, I would say that we must have been divided into two groups: each group doing "Ground School" at Shawbury in the mornings and Practical at Sleap in the afternoons, and changing over weekly. At Shawbury we were introduced to the Principles of Radar, our heads and notebooks stuffed with all sorts of weird creatures: Klystrons and Magnetrons, Pulse Widths and Pulse Recurrence Rates, Lobes, Waveguides, "Skip" Distances, Ground Returns and "Ghosts", and Lord knows what else besides, only imperfectly understood then and now long forgotten. Was there an End of Course Exam ? Can't remember one. Of course the MPN-1 was the 'only Truck in town' then: they just taught that.

At Sleap, the Chipmunks had great sport with us. They put up two or three at a time to trap the Directors into 'MisIdents'. A good trick was for two to hide behind the Wrekin, No.1 going in from the West, No.2 from the East. As soon as they knew they were out of (radar) sight, they did quick 180s and came out t'other way. Director (handling No.1) would pick up his chap (as he thought) on the same heading as that on which he'd gone in. All this was mixed in with whatever else Shawbury had flying around. How we laughed !

Over the Talkdowns it is better to draw a veil. Suffice to say that many ended with the classic despairing line: "Look around for the runway and crash visually - Talkdown out !"

The mornings turned frosty. One morning I had to use boiling water on my frozen car door lock. But generally I took the bus; so still the daily rush over the little footbridge. Sometimes a pair of sculls from Shrewsbury School, sometimes a swan or two at full bore, paddling and flapping frantically to get lift-off, succeeding and instantly reverting to the beautiful thing it had been on the water.

Peter went AWOL two or three times. Each time his little elastic collar ensured that he was promptly handed in to the Law. Our local 'bobby' (there were such things in those days, believe it or not) brought him home on each occasion. He made no attempt to evade arrest, but settled down comfortably in the crook of the constable's arm much as he had done in mine when I first chucked him out of church. Luckily we came back to Mablethorpe before he outstayed his welcome at the Police Station (yes, we had one of those, as well).

"Oh, you're back, are you ?", said Boss Norcross "About time, too".

G'day, chaps,

Danny42C


Nice to know you've been missed !

Union Jack
16th Aug 2013, 12:24
How fitting that a man of the time should mark it on our forum. RIP all, and thank you for your service.

Hear! Hear! I am facing "AndyCappLand", standing to attention, and saluting now, Sir - "Up 2,3, down!":ok:

Jack

MPN11
16th Aug 2013, 13:16
These are the closing hours of VJ Day, 15th August 1945, 68 years ago now

So much noise about D-Day and VE-Day … and yet thousands were still fighting, or imprisoned, in the Far East.

"We will remember them"

Was there an End of Course Exam ? Can't remember one. Of course the MPN-1 was the 'only Truck in town' then: they just taught that.


I may interject on that topic this evening, from a 1966 perspective at Sleap ;)

Danny42C
16th Aug 2013, 15:13
HughGw01,

I'm so sorry ! We've met before, haven't we ? And then I have to welcome you aboard for a second time ! Please put it down to a Senior Moment (I'm having a lot of them lately - though I've haven't reached the stage of going out without my trousers on - yet !)......D.

Smudgsmith and Union Jack,

Once again, thank you for your generous comments ! But always I must stress that there was nothing uniquely noble about my generation: we just happened to be there when war came along, somebody had to fight it, and there was no use looking around for anybody else. Long ago on this Thread, I was halted in my tracks by someone who wrote: "We each had to fight the war we were given".

I salute him (whoever it was) for he put his finger right on it. The whole nation had to "fight that war", although nobody wanted it and all had long feared it. Churchill (as always) said the right words: "This was their finest hour".

Jack, I'm honoured to return your salute - "Aye-aye, Sir"......D.

MPN11,

How right you are ! Sad to say, there was much truth in the "Forgotten Army" epithet, even if General Slim's caustic rider: "You've not been forgotten - it's just that no one's ever heard of you" is perhaps a little over the top.

Yet the Home Front may be forgiven. We were: "in a far off land of which we know little", and there was a lot going on in Europe at the time.

Looking forward eagerly to your interjection tonight (ten years is a long time)......D

As you see, Normal Transmission has been Resumed.

Greetings to you all four, Danny.

MPN11
17th Aug 2013, 11:07
Was there an End of Course Exam ? Can't remember one. Of course the MPN-1 was the 'only Truck in town' then: they just taught that.

I did the GCA Course at Shawbury/Sleap in late 66, so many of my memories will be foggy. However, I'm fairly sure there was some classroom Exam to ensure we had absorbed the necessary training. But there certainly was an extensive period on on-console assessment, and of course the famous "Truck Test" on the MPN-11.

Remember those vague internal images of the Truck? I now recall the control positions were at Bay 9, Bay 12 and Bay 15 - on the left side. And of course there were equipment bays all down the right side, as well as others filling the spaces between 9/12/15. So what was the "Truck Test"? In essence, the instructor would go into the Truck and, essentially, screw it up! The Precision cursors would be displaced from their proper positions [aligned with the radar reflectors, etc], display gain/contrast controls would be mis-set [to the extent that nothing was visible] and a whole load of other settings [some requiring the use of a small screwdriver deep inside one the bays on the right] would be incorrect :ouch:

The student then had to work his way around the Truck, here there and almost everywhere, restoring a semblance of normality. First get a credible radar picture, by fine tuning antenna gain and all the other things like that [I remember the words!]. Then set up all the cursors in their correct positions, sort out brightness and contrast. Oh, and don't forget to check all the radios and landlines!!
The whole process could take up to 30 minutes :eek:

On Units, the Ground Radio guys hated seeing controllers with screwdrivers clipped into their shirt pockets. It meant that their precious setting-up could be destroyed in an instant by a controller turning the wrong controls. Indeed, on many Units, ATCO's screwdrivers were banned.

Back to you, Danny42C :ok:

Danny42C
18th Aug 2013, 00:45
MPN11,

Now you've really got me rummaging about in my memory ! I was an Instructor on the School in '66, and I can't remember going out to Sleap at all, or to instructing on the CPN-4, although there surely must have been a simulator for it at Shawbury. Did they have specialist GCA Instructors just at Sleap ? Or was it in fact a separate School ? (To put it bluntly, do you remember me there ?

It occurs to me (don't I know ?) that your GCA Course may have been a standard "bolt-on" to the end of the ATC Course I instructed on, for by then the CPN-4/MPN11 was in use pretty well everywhere, and a non-GCA trained Controller would be little use to anybody. I take it that in '66 the MPN-1 would have been withdrawn completely - I last used it at Gatow in '61.

Your recollection of the truck inside is accurate, IIRC - it was the lap of luxury after the old "Bendix". But the "Truck Test" you describe must (thankfully) have passed me by, for I was posted from the "1" straight onto two "4/11"s in succession, then onto an ACR-7C (there was a funny thing) before posting back to the School in '64, so I never suffered a "Truck Test".

It sounds to have been the exact equivalent of the dreaded "Unusual Position" which usually rounded off an Instrument Rating Test. Unable to see anything except your panel, you were entirely at the mercy of a sadistic Examiner, who would throw the thing about to disorientate you, then leave it in some impossible attitude, with speed or height or both falling off rapidly, before handing it back to you to sort out - if you could !

Happy Days !

Danny.

MPN11
18th Aug 2013, 09:34
Morning, Danny42C. I hope folks will excuse us nattering here?

I was on 132 Joint ATC Course in Apr/May 1965, and 211 Radar Approach Course in Nov/Dec 66. As the system was then, you did the basic JATCC which covered Approach (DF) and Local and then on graduation headed off for your first appointment. After a year or so working in Local and Approach (DF) you returned to the School to do the "Big Boys" Radar Course. Subsequently (in 1968) the JATCC and RAC courses were combined and students went through the full spectrum of professional training before graduating. Don't remember you, I regret: my RAC Course Commander was Harry Talton, and one instructor was Fg Off Graham Wood (later Air Cdre and AOC MATO) with whom I had some lively arguments.

Apart from classroom work, practical training was an odd mix of the Simulators at Shawbury (based on the Cossor 787, the one with a rheostat for the range rings that could give them showing every mile on the display*, and the SLA3D PAR.) Then Sleap had the two MPN11/CPN4 Trucks (Red and Black) working live traffic (Vampires and Piston Provosts, flown by Marshall's pilots) which were pointed at simulated runways on the now disused airfield. Both trucks were parked just in front of the old Control Tower. So the training was a mix of equipments and simulated/live traffic. Of course [ooops] if you were going to a unit with different equipment then you would have to learn on the job - I managed to avoid that ACR-7C abortion, fortunately!

How the School managed its instructors is, of a course, beyond my ken. Did some just do Sleap/trucks and the others do Shawbury/simulators?

* That's where Graham and I clashed, as he insisted on me working on the Sim with range rings showing every mile. I pointed out I was going back to an MPN11 unit where only 5 mile rings were available, so there was no point (from my POV) of getting used to having the display cluttered up with rings I would never see or use again.

** It was on my RAC that I managed to have a Mess Bill bigger than my plt off's Pay Statement. The numbers are forever burned in my memory … £54/12/6 vs. £52/10/0 :eek:

Chugalug2
18th Aug 2013, 10:20
MPN11, no need to be excused, your comparing of notes with Danny helps us all to capture the ever changing scenario of those early days of RAF Precision Approaches. Allied to it all, of course, was the corresponding training of pilots in order to exploit the resulting expertise. In the main this didn't require grappling with the complexities of new technology as you did. The standard blind flying panel with ASI, artificial horizon, VSI, altimeter, G4 compass, and Turn and Slip, was ubiquitous and we were taught it from the start. All we had to do was ensure that it confirmed the instructions received from you were being complied with.
It is interesting that you both have little or nothing to say in favour of the ACR7. All I can say is from a "customer's" viewpoint it gave every satisfaction!
Colerne, perched on its hilltop, often suffered from low cloud/ poor vis/ driving rain/ gusty cross winds. Nonetheless once one heard the unmistakeable voice of Mark, our Polish ATCO, begin his patter and we started on down there was every expectation that the approach would indeed result in us being able to "look ahead now and continue visually" to a safe arrival rather than having to "go around". Rather like Danny's Bendix at full spin I guess that the confident tones belied the challenges involved on Terra Firma. :)

MPN11
18th Aug 2013, 10:55
The snag with the ACR-7 (Search only), I recall, was that the antenna had a fairly narrow beam in the vertical plane which the controller tilted to get the best picture. So when conducting a Surveillance Radar Approach (SRA) the tilt to get a good picture for that function would preclude the other controller [doing Director] from getting a decent longer-range picture for [U]his task. Danny will undoubtedly elaborate!

Your Polish ATCO at Colerne exemplified the special breed of talk down operators. It was (and maybe is still?) a magnificent confidence trick, whereby we were able to tell pilots what to do with conviction!! :cool:

In truth, you would soon get your reputation tarnished if "Look ahead and take over visually" presented the pilot with a view of a large of expanse of grass without either runway or lights! I had the odd occasion as an aircraft approached break-off when that standard RT message was immediately followed by "Keep Talking" … but then back then we were allowed to pass advisory information after Break-Off, so we just carried on talking all the way to the radar markers at touchdown. In later years it was just "Talkdown Out" at Decision Height or whatever, and you were left on your own … to either land or go around.

Three Wire
18th Aug 2013, 17:25
Very interesting chat. A long time ago (and wearing dark blue) I came back from a maritime excursion. I was greeted with unforecast weather and with a disturbingly low fuel state, replied with gear down , hook down, talk to touchdown, at the obligatory pause for cockpit checks.

The GCA controller talked me into the wire on the first pass, thank god.

airborne_artist
18th Aug 2013, 17:35
Way off topic, but Leeming in 1979 had a rather nice-sounding lady on GCA. Never met her, but always enjoyed the experience.

Probably would be interpreted by the trick-cyclists as an Oedipus complex ;)

MPN11
18th Aug 2013, 17:58
Nothing sexist, I assure you - worked with WRAF Controllers from Day 1. But when the flight deck is stressed, I can imagine there's nothing nicer that a competent female controller bringing you home for beer and medals. Sadly I could only offer a Surrey accent, competence and then ... being ignored.

Even on serious sh1t days, or really hazardous circumstances, even getting a "Thank You" on Talkdown was rare. However, I recognise that the adrenalin in the cockpit probably over-rided everything else. I forgive you all :cool:

There's a pair of totally screwed up Lightnings from Binbrook who still owe SATCO Waddington a case of wine for digging them out of the sh1t on their quickest quickie ever. They could fly it, I could control it, and IIRC they crept on to the edge of the PAR at about 3.5 miles ... at around 1000 ft, for RW 03, carefully missing Harmston Church spire. They were the only pilots I really heard getting close to panic on the RT.

And when it was over, I had to look at the rest if the Approach Room and say "Don't you EVER let me see you doing controlling like that". But then I had a bit of experience controlling "Mr Fuel Shortage" over the years. :)

Fareastdriver
18th Aug 2013, 18:36
The number of times I have galloped up the stairs of an ATC building to get a butchers at a silken voiced female air trafficker and come to a grinding halt.

MPN11
18th Aug 2013, 19:41
Some ugly people are allowed in cockpits as well, apparently! Naughty person :)

26er
18th Aug 2013, 21:09
One flight from Chivenor sticks in my mind, with all you GCA experts discussing the equipment's technicalities.

A Hunter T7 needed an engine airtest and J/T Bloggs, a fitter, asked if he could come as he had worked on the aircraft. I was only too happy to have him along provided his boss agreed so off we soared into the wide blue yonder. I did the necessary test checks and having lots fuel remaining made a practice div to St Mawgan. The cloudbase was reported as 100ft and the active runway was, if my memory serves me correctly 12 or 13 so the sea fog was hitting the coast and rising to form stratus over the airfield. I did a QGH/GCA with the intention of descending to minimums then overshoot and back home. I was able to explain the procedure to Bloggs. After the "left a bit/up a bit" talkdown I carried on down to 150ft when low and behold the runway appeared right in front of us on which I did a "roller" then off home to Chivenor. My passenger was most impressed and couldn't stop talking about it. This would have been in 1968. In a later life it was possible to show various people on the jumpseat how an ILS approach happened. A pity it is no longer allowed.

In about 1957/8 Chivenor had a brilliant GCA controller called Jack Harrild who gave great confidence when his voice came over the R/T. He was a horse racing man and the final part of his patter was along the lines of "you're passing the six furlong post now". He'd be flogged for using non standard patter now, but real individuals who knew their job were a delight to work with.

Danny42C
18th Aug 2013, 21:31
MPN11,

I'll start by heartily seconding Chugalug's remarks some way above. Your generous "Excuse us from nattering", forsooth ! "Nattering" is what a Forum's all about. The very worst thing that could happen to this Thread is (as I've said before) that it should become Danny's (or anyone else's) monologue. It is naturally gratifying that my tortuous tale seems to be of interest, but it should never be more than a coat-hanger on which the other visitors to our Virtual Crewroom can hang their memories, remarks, questions and (yes) criticisms (but always without rancour).

And I would thank the Moderators for their unfailing indulgence as we roam from Drill Corporals who were "put on a fizzer" by a future King, to a hijacked 707 in Israel, to a ruffianly Land Crab in Aden, to the mechanics of a hammock in a Mess Deck, to a sky in Bombay that once rained gold bars.....(we could go on for hours). All life is here !

Revenons à nous moutons ! You say that the old two-part system of Schools lasted to '68, and I left in '67, so in our time together the Sleap operation would have been quite separate and I would have had no part in it, (so your assumption about the division of Instructor labour is correct). So what did I teach ? (scatches head). Well, endless CR/DF simulator QGHs, "Mock" Control Room exercises, in which we often introduced a crash or two so that, whatever else you forgot when you left us, when the day came for you (and it would surely come), you might remember what you must do, and in what order, so that you could at least give the appearance of being in command of the situation.

And lectures, lectures, lectures. (We didn't mind you going to sleep on us at the back mid-afternoon so much, but 8.30 in the morning was a bit much)....D.

Chugalug,

Once again, it's nice to hear from a Satisfied Customer ! As to the humble ACR-7C, it had many aliases. "Cossor 787" was one. "Airfield Radar 424" was another. But although MPN11 and I have hardly been complimentary about it, it was decidedly better than nothing. At the risk of shooting my Linton fox (third station down the line), what I was told about it was this: It had originally been a contender for an estuary radar contract (Thames estuary ?). Ships have one thing in common, they are all on the same plane (ignoring the curvature of the earth). So a very shallow radar lobe is sufficient. IIRC, this could be jacked up in seven stages (Studs 1-7 in the Truck) from sea level up to about 10° in 1½° steps.

The Estuary Radar contract folded (or they were outbid); Cossor were on their uppers. What to do ? Sell it to the RAF, of course - they'll buy anything - Success !

It was just a PPI, but useless as a search radar because of the shallow lobe. But if aircraft could be fed in from CR/DF ? (as in the MPN-1 case). This was done, and very successfully, too.

For, because the lobe was so shallow, you could get rid of almost all the ground returns, with the aerial at Stud 2 or 3, and carry on a Continuous Descent PPI talkdown almost onto the runway. On one occasion, I was actually able to pick out the runway lights for a hundred yards or so, and see my tiny square blip running along between them , but that was exceptional.

In the RAF in those days, as we all know, "he keeps on a-comin', you keep on a-talkin' " - till half a mile, then - "You're half-a-mile from touchdown - look ahead for the runway - you're clear to land (or whatever) - Talkdown OUT". (It was only later that we started saying "I'll continue to advise" - and I'm sure no one ever listened, for if your runway or the lights aren't in plain view at half-a-mile and 150 ft, what does any sane man do ?....D.

Next instalment of "Strubby" is on the stocks.

Cheers, Danny.

Union Jack
18th Aug 2013, 21:51
Ships have one thing in common, they are all on the same plane (ignoring the curvature of the earth).

Yeah right, Danny! Try standing on the wing of a ship's bridge, with a height of eye of some 60 feet, looking straight out horizontally at the crest of an oncoming wave in the Bay .....:eek:

I'll let you off as far as submarines are concerned since they are of course "boats"!

Jack

PS Delighted by your reference to Revenons à nous moutons ! Haven't seen or heard that for ages.:ok:

Danny42C
18th Aug 2013, 22:19
Three Wire, airborne artist, MPN11, Fareastdriver, 26er and (last but not least) Union Jack,

On behalf of the whole "Talkdown" community, I gratefully accept the kind words said about us and hope that our "Successors in Title" still continue to give every satisfaction.

Always wondered about the marked increase in Tower visitor numbers after the mid-sixties - what could it possibly mean ?

Jack Harrild ? - the name rings a bell, but where and when ? Too long ago, I fear.

Jack, point taken ! (Heaven help the sailors on a night like this !) Had a ride in a submarine once when was at Thorney Island. Story to be told later on.

Terra firma best, the firmer the better.

Goodnight, all,

Danny.

MPN11
19th Aug 2013, 08:24
In about 1957/8 Chivenor had a brilliant GCA controller called Jack Harrild who gave great confidence when his voice came over the R/T. He was a horse racing man and the final part of his patter was along the lines of "you're passing the six furlong post now". He'd be flogged for using non standard patter now, but real individuals who knew their job were a delight to work with.

Jack Harrold never changed - he was still doing that 10 years later!! :)

Danny42C
19th Aug 2013, 16:02
I was rostered onto the Strubby Truck right away. "Are you going to give me a day or two's checkout ?" I asked the Boss. "What for !", said he, "Isn't it bad enough that we've had to run one Controller short for a month while you've been enjoying yourself at Shawbury ? - Get out there !"

The Controller Establishment was small. You only needed two Officers, two F/Sgts and a Tracker on each of the two watches at Strubby, and one officer (who could easily do the lot, but a F/Sgt came in handy) on each watch at Manby. Six ATC officers, therefore, but in practice you needed eight or nine to cover leaves, sickness and detachments. My month's absence on the GCA Course had made things difficult.

Of course you didn't need all your Controllers to be GCA trained. Those who were would spend nearly all their time on Approach/Talkdown at Strubby, the others did Approach at both places. (Manby had no GCA). There was no ILS at either field in my time. Manby was reckoned a rest-cure for the battle-weary Strubby people, but it was only rarely that I was able to get rostered for a week there. But, curiously it was at Manby that I had two "occurrences" worthy of note, but there is plenty of time for them yet.

On the first morning on Talkdown roster, I went straight out to the Truck, which was only a short distance from the tower when we were working on 27, and entered into my little kingdom.

At this point, I would advise the reader to Google: "Bomber County Aviation Resource Strubby Airfield History" www.bcar.org.uk/strubby-history.php (http://www.bcar.org.uk/strubby-history.php) (All we are interested in is the map - or rather diagram - of Strubby). This clearly shows (wartime) GCA access tracks for all runways, although postwar we only used 09/27 (curiously, I never knew of the other tracks until now). The diagram will come in useful when I talk of runway changes.

Top Tower had told them I was on my way. The Truck was whirring and thumping, the Search Aerial on top twirling, and the Generator rumbling. Chiefy (Director) and Tracker stood outside the Rest Caravan to welcome the new man. "We've just brewed-up, sir," said Chiefy, "come in and have a cuppa". "What about the Truck ?", I asked, "Oh, the mechs are Running Up the High Tension and setting-up, they'll tell us when they've got a picture".

I glanced at my watch, 0745, and Approach would be wanting to leave for Briefing in a minute or two. "But we've got to declare servicability any time now". "Oh, if they haven't found anything wrong yet, we call it "serviceable" - if an unforeseen snag develops later, that's not our fault, is it, sir ?"

With that I had to be content. I climbed the steps into the little Rest Caravan. Inside were two or three old armchairs (one Lloyd Loom), the usual pile of old papers and magazines, a Calor gas ring with a frying pan, and an electric kettle. There was a little sink, water was pumped up from a tank underneath. Propped agaist the end wall were two old very worn deckchairs, dark green canvas, which I immediately recognised as the ex-beach-property of the Local Authority. Under what circumstances they had become "ex" ?, I thought it better I should not know.

The cleanest (ie least dirty) mug was offered, the tea was excellent - real "Sgt-Major's tea" - the spoon would stand up in it. It was a good start. We finished our tea around 0815 and strolled over to the Truck. I climbed up the rickety wooden steps first and into the dark interior - and froze in horror.

In front of me the High Tension cabinet door was ajar, with umpteen thousands of volts spitting and snarling inside, lying in wait for a victim ! Instinctively I slammed it shut. The radar pictures on all scopes vanished; a roar of execration arose (silhouetted against the doorway, the mechs couldn't see who'd come in). "What did you do that for, sir ?" asked Chiefy in a pained voice.

I couldn't believe my ears, but wordlessly pointed to the fearsome warnings on the door. "Oh, we don't worry about that, sir", said my Director,"if we had to go through all that rigmarole, we'd never have a radar till lunchtime. We always do it this way. Don't worry, we've never lost a man yet, we'll close it when we're steady on tune". The poster facing us: (You'll end up in a wooden box/if you Jam the Interlocks) hadn't had the desired effect: that was exactly what they'd been doing. (I later checked with the Boss - he knew all about it - it was as Chiefy said). It was not an auspicious start. My first task was to call Approach and announce: "GCA U/S TFN - High Tension failure".

The whole outfit consisted of the Bendix towed by the Matador generator truck, parked alongside the Bedford Workshop Truck hitched to the Rest Caravan. We sometimes had a little two wheel flatbed trailer as well, to carry a 40-gallon Derv drum for the Lister engine in the power truck. Last, but not least, there would be a collection of mopeds and bikes, but (IIRC), no cars.

That's enough to be going on with, more gripping detail next time.

Goodnight yet again,

Danny42C.


You can't win 'em all.

Fareastdriver
19th Aug 2013, 18:45
Maybe Danny can answer this for me.

When I started in China in the mid 90s the company I worked for had their own weather radar. It consisted of a vertical 'C' shaped aerial on the roof that could be controlled vertically and in azimuth by the operator. When the weather was a bit dodgy I used to go to the radar room to get an idea of the weather en route.
They had an enormous collection of noisy cabinets and when I arrived they would start it up. The main interest seemed to be a small scope that had some pulses flickering up from the left hand corner. As things warmed up these pulses would get stronger and stronger until suddenly they would fill; the scope and then they would turn on the radar picture.
The equipment would present excellent pictures of cumulus and cunims up to sixty miles but I always wondered what this little scope was telling you.

Danny42C
20th Aug 2013, 00:51
Fareastdriver,

This is a bit of a puzzle, and I'm not sure I can help. For a start, it seems like a specialist weather radar of some sort, and a Met man might be a better bet - we have some, as I'm sure you know, for they Post here from time to time.

And the weather radars in your aircraft do the same job of picking up nasties on track, I believe (so said he, knowing nowt about it).

The only thing in my line that has an operator-controlled elevation radar was the ACR-7, and that'd be little use as the lobe was so narrow and the range so short. You mention operator control in azimuth, was that a rotating time base or some kind of reciprocating thing (like a PAR ?).

As far as picking up snow cu-nims in winter and the wandering T/storms in summer, both CPN-4 and AR-1 were excellent and powerful PPIs, quite good at seeing these out to 70 (? - have to look it up) miles. If they got to 30 miles and were heading to hit the field, we could shout in good time.

Your funny little thing has me foxed (some kind of oscilloscope ? a kin to the old "magic eye" valve we had - to confirm tuning - in the old domestic sets ?)

Best I can do, I'm afraid. Cheers,

Danny.

Fareastdriver
20th Aug 2013, 05:26
Thanks Danny. I can only assume it was a Chinese copy of a Russian copy of an American radar set.

Blacksheep
20th Aug 2013, 12:26
It was the monsoon season in Borneo. The rain was a little less dense than standing under the bathroom shower. I despatched the morning's Singapore flight and beat a retreat to the office. The aircraft reached the end of the runway, turned around and came back. The admin girl from the Ops Room stuck her head round my door - "Radar Defect!" Putting my cape back on I drove out, climbed the stairs and went into the flight deck. Andy pointed to his weather radar. The screen was completely red. "Can't go unless we get this fixed" he said. I reached over and turned the range switch from 15 to 120. The red area turned to yellow at around 30, then green at about 50 miles. All beyond 70 was a satisfying black. "There you go Andrew. Just a local rainshower!"

Andy L*****w was one of those pilots who wouldn't go until everything worked properly.

I know you're out there Andy. ;)

MPN11
20th Aug 2013, 14:36
blacksheep :ok:

The wonders of radar are only gifted to a few. For the rest, it's incomprehensible black magic. :cool:

Danny42C
20th Aug 2013, 16:06
MPN11,

The wonders of radar were incomprehensible to the operarors as well. Let the cobbler stick to his last ! The Radar Fitters and Mechs know what they're doing, let them get on with it.

Talkdown, Director and Tracker only wanted a Brilliance and a Gain knob to be quite happy - and they already had that in the TV at home, except that "Gain" was called "Contrast" - so they knew how it worked. They didn't need to know any more.

As for a Controller with a screwdriver in his pocket........you might as well give a toddler a loaded pistol to play with ! The mind boggles !

Cheers, Danny.

MPN11
20th Aug 2013, 17:38
As for a Controller with a screwdriver in his pocket........you might as well give a toddler a loaded pistol to play with ! The mind boggles !

You MPN-1 wimp ;) ;)

That's what you get when you're being supported by half a flight of Mother's Little Helpers.
WE did the Truck Test. OK? :p

When the weather was doing a Strubby, and the MPN11 had gone off tune, you hadn't got time to bleat for a Mech. You sorted it out yourself, quickly, HV cabinets notwithstanding (although Bay 4 scared me, I will admit - there was a screwdriver control deep in on the right side). :cool:

MPN11

Trucking on :)

Danny42C
20th Aug 2013, 23:14
MPN11,

I stand in awe of, and humbly defer to, your courage and technical expertise ! As for even daring to look inside the HT Cabinet, perish the thought !...... Screwdriver ?....... (I feel quite faint).

I've always believed in the Division of Labour. A bit of half rememberd doggerel (G.K. Chesterton ?):

"Peter Charles Augustus White
Tried to mend the Electric Light.
It struck him dead, and Serve Him Right."

"It is the duty of the Wealthy Man
To give Employment to the Artisan"

(Forget the Wealthy bit)......Cheers, Danny

Fareastdriver
21st Aug 2013, 08:26
At the turn of the century our ancient Chinese radar was replaced by the internet. The met office now had a bank of computer screen with Hong Kong Met Office live rainfall map that covered everything within 200 miles of Lion Rock.

En route you would ask your co-pilot, who knew how to operate these things, to get an update on his smartphone.

Chugalug2
21st Aug 2013, 09:40
Ah yes, the ever moving white heat of technology...in the 60's routine HF position reports and met observations over the oceans were composed with RAF Form 2347 (The Airep).

On the front of the form vertical columns enabled each call and observation to be composed as one would expect, ie position, time, Flight Level, next position and estimate, ETA, endurance. In addition (and not for transmission) were Corrected OAT, W/V, present weather (ie TS, hail, rain, snow, freezing rain), cloud (amount, type, top, base, eg CB top 28,000, bkn stf top 4000), icing (light, mod, severe), and general remarks.

On the reverse of the form, corresponding vertical columns allowed for a "Pictorial Cross Section of Weather Observed". This was the opportunity for the Co-Pilot to impress. Armed with a full set of crayons that any school child would covert he would draw a cross section of the clouds and weather at each position against a vertical scale calibrated in Flight Levels, with intensity or urgency indicated by the colour used (in much the same way as Blacksheep's Wx Radar).

The completed form was handed into the met office at destination, where there usually ensued a verbal debrief. So it went on year on year, until arriving one night at Gan from Changi. The duty forecaster thanked us for the form, put it in an in-tray and made as if our business was done. "Don't you need that then?", I asked. "Well, it's just that we have this now.", he replied, pushing a photo towards us. There was the first satellite weather picture we had ever seen. "There's Singapore, here's Gan, this was your route, here are the clouds you encountered", he explained. We marvelled at this role change, whereby suddenly he could tell us what was actually en-route rather than we tell him. The crayons were quietly put away...

MPN11
21st Aug 2013, 16:52
While the esteemed Danny42C is having his post-lunch nap (Sorry, Guv'nor) I had been mulling over the peculiarities of Strubby. And doodling, as you will see below.

So, apart from being the home of the Canberras of the Spec N/Staff N course (who just took off, poked off, and came home many hours later), in 65-67 it was the home of the Varsities of the School of (Heavy) Refresher Flying. The noisy little JP things for Dinky Refreshing mercifully lived at Manby, and rarely annoyed us (I'll rephrase that, they always annoyed us, and ATC Manby always annoyed us, but that's a different story).

So … Air Traffic 1.03.15 … Operating From Three Runways At Once.

Yes that was fun. Was that 67 or 68, before I did the GCA Course? Whenever … we had an Easterly wind, so the SRF studes were drilling the Varsities into the 09 GCA approaches and visual circuits. But, of course, they also had to get ticks in the box for ILS approaches (Sorry, Danny, modern stuff, someone will update you :cool: )

So … GCA to 09, ILS to 27. At the same time … Woot!!

And then we had a UAS/AEF Det of Chipmunks, which due to the wind and traffic density decided to operate from the still-viable RW 03. We now had 3 runways in use at the same time :eek:

I honestly have no idea these days how we sequenced all that stuff, but I was that Local Controller …clearing GCA to do head-on approaches to 09 and ILS to 27, whilst slotting Chipmunks off 03 into the plot. I doubt it would be allowed these days … but back then we were bloody good, eh? As my wife says, timing is everything. :hmm:

Have a cr@p diagram, roughly to scale. :cool:

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/Strubby3-Runways.jpeg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/Strubby3-Runways.jpeg.html)

Danny42C
21st Aug 2013, 17:11
I don't recall how many shifts I did with the winter wind stuck in the West, and the truck in 27 position. But everything changes in time, and the morning came when the order came: "Shut down and change ends". Of course, it was a matter-of-course for everyone except me. But there has to be a first time for everything, hasn't there ?

It seems there was a "book time" (40 mins) for the whole job. But this morning it would take rather longer, I must now admit that it was All my Fault (but I shall not tell you what I did wrong for the moment, so as not to spoil the surprise).

Now the others swung into a well-oiled routine. The HT was run down (but the LT - mains voltage from the Generator Truck - kept on to keep the equipment heaters going (Radar is very temperature-sensitive). The (hydraulic) jacks were retracted to put the Truck back on its wheels. Tyres were kicked. Now the Search Aerial leaned drunkenly, 4°out of plumb, but still turning.

In the Workshop Truck, jobs in progess and tools were secured. The Rest Caravan hoisted the Calor Gas tank inboard, all crockery was stowed, the steps pushed inside, the power connection to the Truck was unplugged, handbrake 'off' and the door shut.

At last we got our clearance to move from Local, and their squawk box (the last) intercom plug lead was pulled out, earthing spikes drawn up, everyone who hadn't got a bike climbed in (except Chiefy, who would drive the Bedford, and I) and they pulled up the steps into the truck behind them. "Handbrake's off, Sir - take it away !"

Old habits die hard. To this day, I do a walk-around the car before I first climb in. After doing so here, I climbed the North Face of the Eiger up into the "Matador" cab. Nowadays H&S would demand that I had a HGV licence, but then nobody bothered. During the war, out East, no one even cared whether you had any kind of licence at all - if it had wheels and would move, you drove it.

There was no "Matador" driving instruction at Shawbury. I looked round the spacious cab for the first time. It seemed an enormous distance from the ground. Everything was on a gargantuan scale, hand brake and gear lever almost the size of the ones in a railway signal box. Pedals bigger than a Landrover. Now IIRC, I had to switch on a Glow Plug or something, then nervously pressed the starter button.

I was unprepared for the racket that broke out - for the engine was virtually inside the middle of the cab by my side. A huge cloud of black smoke enveloped us. Local Controller was watching for this, and gave me a green Aldis. Handbrake off, graunch into bottom gear, let clutch in with infinite care. To my surprise, it took up the drive quite smoothly.

(Now the Strubby map will come in handy). I'm heading away from the runway, with a hundred yards or so to go to the taxiway. I double-declutch ponderously up through the box. That's unknown now, but then we all had to do it, for the old bangers we drove only had crash boxes - for whatever sychromesh they ever had was long gone.

Take it right across taxiway and lock over hard left. Now I'm up into top gear, about 15mph, and surprised how easy it is. The whole majestic cavalcade comes in line astern, "pennants flying and drums beating" (so to speak) along the centre of the taxiway as I set out on the mile long haul right round to the 09 threshold. Then I'll turn left onto the runway, run down it for some 300 yards to my access track, turn right into it and halt 20-30 yards short of my new position.

The chaps will bale out of the Truck and the bikes catch up. Now I must creep on with extreme care, for the Truck behind me must finish up exactly aligned with the markings and within an inch or two of the correct point under the centre of the azimuth waveguide. But I have plenty of eager guidance: Chiefy (who has hopped out of his cab) and the crew are all: "Left hand down a bit, sir - back a bit - right hand down now - just a bit more - Whoa !! "

(If I get it really wrong, then I'd have to go out forward onto the North taxiway. right round back to the runway, down it, turn into the track and try again).

Ideally, that's what should have happened (without a go-around, of course). As it was, I trundled past the Tower and a little way further on (almost to exactly the spot where Ahmed had flamed-out).

And then the same happened to me ! And the worst of it was, I knew why !

As I've already demonstrated, it's one of my unfortunate traits that I have a yen for Putting Things Right (in the supermarket, I'm always the one who picks up the packet that someone else has carelessly knocked down, and puts it back on the shelf). What had I done now ?

On my walk-round, I'd come past the big cylindrical fuel tank hung on the offside chassis. On it, a two-way tap said "Main-Reserve", it was set to "Reserve". I knew this arrangement well: I'd had exactly the same in my old "Bond". (On "main", you draw fuel from a short standpipe which gives you (say) 3/4 of the fuel, "Reserve" is the last 1/4, drawn from the bottom of the tank - which is where all the condensed water, rust and gunge collects). This I knew from bitter experience; for that reason, you should never run on "Reserve" unless you absolutely have to.

"Tsk,tsk!", I thought. That shouldn't be. Of course the tank must have plenty of fuel in it ! Why would it not ? There's plenty of Derv sloshing round all the time ! (and the gauge in the cab said 1/2 full, anyway)......... I put he tap back to "main"..........so here I'm stuck in the middle of the taxiway where no aircraft can get past me. :eek: What now ?

This is much too long already. Will Danny escape with reputation intact ? (Wait for the next thrilling number !)

Goodnight, all, Danny42C.


If it ain't broke, don't fix it

MPN11
21st Aug 2013, 17:23
hahahahaha

and again …

hahahahaha

Nice one, Danny :ok:

Danny42C
21st Aug 2013, 17:42
MPN11,

Talk about a nightmare scenario ! (if we'd put up a Mock programme like that at the School, we'd have been carted off to the Funny Farm !) Did the RAF have a death-wish in '67-'68, perhaps ?

Your only consolation was that you had a CPN-4 (or PAR ?). Just imagine feeding an MPN-1 into the mix, and doing a runway change with a Danny at the helm.

And worse is to come! Watch this space.

Danny.

MPN11
21st Aug 2013, 18:27
Just the MPN 11 on the turntable, Danny ... At least that bit was easy, and level. No cross-country expeditions with the Trucks for us!! Just letting the Techies rotate the entire assembly on the railway tracks, set up and Truck on!!

Local is easy ... It's their fault, as they're visual. I may divert your narrative again sometime, with dissertations about having 34 in the visual circuit (there is a PAR connotation) or the juggling of assorted types at Stanley in 83.

However, sir, the floor is yours again ... i just wanted to get that Strubby 3-RW dit off my chest before I forget where I was!! :D

Danny42C
22nd Aug 2013, 00:13
MPN11,

Divert away whenever and however you like, my dear sir ! And, as soon as you can, please tell us about the turntable operation with the MPN11/CPN-4. I worked a CPN-4 from autumn '58 to autumn '62, and never heard of such a thing in my experience.

It must have come into operation some time after that. It was so obvious a solution (and I suppose there was really no reason why you couldn't put it in the centre of the "cocked hat" and serve all six runway directions, if you wanted). For that matter, it could have been used with the MPN-1, and saved a lot of trouble all round!

The railways must have been substantial, and did you have four concentric circles (in which case getting the eight road wheels up on the "castors" must have been fun) - or did they do it like a railway loco, with one long bridge across, and you could haul the whole lot up on it ?

Will have a look on Google (never know your luck !) .....D.

EDIT: Yes ! "GCA operation on Turntable" "AN/MPN 14k" (Didn't get far)..D

mmitch
22nd Aug 2013, 06:47
Danny. Sorry to distract you from your radar but a thread has started on Key Historic about the Vengeance. Somebody is planning a model and asked for details. There are several photos of the survivor in Australia.
Vultee Vengeance series - Help needed. (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?126064-Vultee-Vengeance-series-Help-needed)
mmitch.

Danny42C
22nd Aug 2013, 15:09
mmitch,

Thanks ! Will give them a buzz.

Danny.

EDIT: mmitch, I've tried to join their happy band, I'm sure I've registered correctly (using same name and password as PPRuNe), but got brush-off:


"Danny42C, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:
Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.
"Log Out (http://www.pprune.org/login.php?do=logout&logouthash=1377189191-e737bbba4667d9dff0f7199314f4d507fa6ae4d0)Home (http://www.pprune.org/forum.php)"

Any ideas (is there a way to ask them to come up on PPRuNe ?), It's hard to help some people ! ...D


EDIT II: Light at the end of the Tunnel ! Of course - it's the middle of the night in Oz, and Moderator/Administrator is safely tucked up in bed ..... D

mmitch
22nd Aug 2013, 20:24
Danny if you are trying to join Key Historic there is a mod in Canada so somebody is usually around. You may be waiting for them to authenticate your account. Some other photos appearing on that thread.
mmitch.

PS I could send a private message to the thread starter (OP) and suggest he contacts you by PM but only if you wish it?
mmitch.

Danny42C
22nd Aug 2013, 22:52
mmitch,

I'd be very grateful if you could get a PM to the Thread Starter (or open Post, doesn't matter), because it seems to be more than I can manage with my limited skill.

The easiest way for everybody would be to invite him onto our Thread on PPRuNe, even just as a guest, for then he could pick my Posts up from # 2548 p.128 onward and learn all I know about the VV from my stories. If he wanted, he could apply to register and ask me questions on open post.

I know Airfix did a 1/72 model of a VV around '68, might be some left yet.

I've seen one of the other VV photos you mention. It was my aircraft, with me flying it, over the Western Ghats near Cannanore in '45 ! (I've a copy of it in my logbook). It's my favourite Mk.III, FB986, bearing its old Sqn letter 'M'. He thinks it's a 110 aircraft, may well have been at one time (although I think the Mk.IIIs only came in after the Squadrons pulled off ops), and had later been handed down to me.

It's a splendid illustration of the underwing spray tanks, which he thinks are for some kind of smoke spray, but of course were for the mustard gas my unit sprayed for the Chemical Defence Research Establishment trials.

Small, small world ! (The Aussies used the Mk.IVs out there - their 12 Sqn - might be some of their old-timers alive).

I'll leave it to you, mmitch, with hopeful thanks,

Danny.

ancientaviator62
23rd Aug 2013, 07:46
Danny,
apologies if this has been mentioned before but my daughter says that there is a radial engine from a Vengeance in the Aviation Museum in Perth Australia. Perhaps one of our 'down under' contributors could confirm with a pic.

Reader123
23rd Aug 2013, 09:06
http://lot-images.atgmedia.com/SR/1532/2875473/23-2013822143140_original.jpg

A 1942 control tower, by Hugh Casson (whom I am not aware of as a war artist, but...). One sees control tower and thinks "aeroplanes" but maybe I shouldn't? Danny, what do you think.

mmitch
23rd Aug 2013, 09:42
Danny. Have posted an invite for the enquirer on Key Historic to come and read and perhaps contact you on here.
mmitch.

CoodaShooda
23rd Aug 2013, 12:54
Danny
I can confirm the RAAF Association museum at Bull Creek has a Wright Cyclone from a 25 Squadron Vengeance on display.

There's a photo of it on their website but I am having problems posting the link.

mmitch
23rd Aug 2013, 17:57
Danny42C I have sent you a PM (private message)
mmitch.

Danny42C
23rd Aug 2013, 20:10
In order of receipt, Gentlemen,

ancient aviator,

The Wright Cyclone and Double Cyclones were used in many wartime and peacetime aircraft of the day: they are very well known. (They did a four-row job, too, IIRC - one of the "corncob engines".) But thank your daughter for her kindness !....D.

Reader123,

This reminds me of Tynwald Hill in I.O.M. Clearly one of the Far Flung Outposts of the British Empire that had not been Flung Far Enough. Looks like something built in Ur of the Chaldees (?) If it is an (ATC) Tower, then a few windows might have been an idea (and the ATC runabout leaves much to be desired)....D.

mmitch ,

My grateful thanks to you ! This is by far the best solution (if it works, and I see no reason why it should not). If they ever let me in at their end, it'll be a bonus.

(PS: have replied to your PM)...D.

Cooda Shooda ,

Please don't bother (see reply to AA above). But thank you for the kind thought. Any chance of leaning on your Key Heritage people to help mmitch and me to establish friendly relations between them and PPRuNe ?......D.

Thank you all for your help, Danny.

Danny42C
24th Aug 2013, 01:43
mmitch,

Stop Press - Key Heritage has let me in ! - all your doing, of course. Have answered a couple of their queries to whet their appetite, will now steer them back to PPRuNe if I can, otherwise may be buried under messages about VVs ......D.

Cooda Shooda,

Panic over - Stand Down !...D.

Thanks all round - particularly to you, mmitch, you've done all the heavy lifting !

Danny.

mmitch
24th Aug 2013, 09:20
Pleasure Danny. I'm just a bit worried you have taken your attention of the radar. Perhaps MPN11 will keep an eye on it for you. :)
mmitch.

dubbleyew eight
24th Aug 2013, 10:43
Vultee Vengance engine in the RAAF association of WA museum

http://museum.raafawa.org.au/images/igallery/resized/201-300/cyclone_1-233-640-480-100-wm-right_bottom-100-CopyrightRAAFAWA-255-255-255-11.jpg

the museum website page it is on...
Wright Cyclone (http://museum.raafawa.org.au/index.php/engines/item/218-wright-cyclone#!cyclone_1)

MPN11
24th Aug 2013, 11:44
Not sure I'm as qualified as Danny, mmitch.

And he were a teecher at the skool. I weren't! :(

Danny42C
24th Aug 2013, 15:44
dubbleyew,

There's posh for you ! Ta......D.

MPN11,

....and when you are a teacher, by your pupils you'll be taught.....D.

Will try to rescue Danny tonight, sitting all forlorn in middle of taxiway as he is.

Cheers to both, Danny.

Danny42C
24th Aug 2013, 17:01
After one or two desperate attempts to restart, I climbed down. Chiefy joined me. First thing, we must put ATC in the picture. It would normally be a black crime to use an aircraft frequency for contact, but now I have no intercom: necessity knows no law. We have power in the Truck and the radios are on: "Tell SATCO we've broken down".

To say that that caused some fluttering in the dovecotes would be an understatement. The circuit had already been changed to 09, but the last few landings on 27 were working their way round the taxiway behind me, until they were all back on the line, obviously no one could move out from it.

At this juncture, I refer to our map. All the loop dispersals shown were 1945 vintage; in the eleven following years they had all been broken up (or had been reclaimed by nature, and it's surprising how quickly that happens). There had been an exception: if you move south-east from behind the Tower, there remained the group of three dispersals shown, then just past the last one had been laid out (on the other side) a wide concrete apron for the Flight Line.

(All this is from memory, a look at the satellite map today shows that the apron has gone back to agriculture, there is no trace of it now, but then a lot can change in 50+ years). We were blocking the taxiway about fifty yards before the entry to this dispersal.

Now my whole crew were clustered round the stranded behemoth; of course I had to admit what I'd done. We came to a quick decision: put the tap back as it was and keep schtumm,..."Agreed ?".... Agreed ! Interested spectators were starting to gather from the squadron crewrooms, this was a welcome distraction from routine. Advice was plentiful, but none of it particularly useful (let's get all the studes out and have them push).

By now SATCO had passed the good news on to Flying wing: CFI was not amused and lost no time in getting on to Wg/Cdr (Eng) with scathing remarks about the standard of servicing of GCA vehicles. Before very long a Sgt MT Fitter turned up with his minions to assess the situation. He spotted the tank straight away, dipped it, found plenty of fuel and made an instant diagnosis: Water/rust in the fuel line, of course !

He scolded our mechs - Why was the tank on "Reserve"? Didn't they realise a Matador tank sat outside in all weathers and did very little running ? Could they not see what was very likely to happen ? The whole lot of them richly deserved to be on a charge !! (this with a part stern, part deferential glance at Chiefy, who assumed an appropriately vengeful mien).

My chaps (bless them) tried to look suitably sheepish and penitent, and somehow all kept straight faces. Sgt sent off one of his chaps for a jerrycan of derv, another for their home-made fuel line-cleaning gear, which seemed to include a lot of rubber tube, some funny bits and a bicycle pump. They climbed into the cab, took the cover off the engine and set about it. They cleared the line (not difficult, as there had been nothing in it to start with), primed it with a kind of icing syringe, tightend the joints, topped-up the tank, pressed the button, there was a splutter or two and it fired up and kept running.

While all this was going on, we had collected a tail of two Meteors and a Canberra, their occupants looking forward to a nice warm coffee in the crewroom. A Meteor burns three gallons a minute at ground idle. Canberras I don't know (four - five ?). They had to shut down and sit it out till we got going again.

How long was that ? Perhaps half an hour. Luckily the rest of the operation went "straight out of the book", and I managed to "hit the spot" first time. Once in position, and the truck "on tilt", the very first Vital Action is: -

"Get the kettle on".... "We'll all have a nice cuppa before we start"...."What's that ?" ....."Approach moaning about how long ?"....."Tell 'em we're Running Up the HT ".... "How long will that take ?"......"As long as it takes, of course !"

Really, some people ! (of course it was clear blue, unlimited vis, no panics).

And I'm in the clear !

Good evenin' all,

Danny42C


What they don't know won't hurt 'em.

smujsmith
24th Aug 2013, 19:46
Ahh Danny,

That "makes I larf it do", all I say is there but for the grace ........

In my day, you would be known as "a bit of a lad".

Smudge:ok:

Union Jack
24th Aug 2013, 20:16
In my day, you would be known as "a bit of a lad".

Well said, Smudge. I rather suspect that we all suspect that he still is - long may that so continue!:ok:

Jack

Fentiger
25th Aug 2013, 12:24
Danny, I wonder if you remember me. We were at Shawbury as instructors and I was SATCO Leeming 1967 -69. Jan and I have just had our 80th Birthday bash.

I also served with Jack Harrild at Chivenor 1961-64. He was a character.

With reference to the Hunter 1 in 1 flame out recovery procedure the Hunter only descended at 1000ft per mile when the undercarriage was down. Up to that point it glided quite well. Using the CADF we used to line the aircraft up with the runway when inbound. The Eureka beacon was postioned 1 mile from the runay threshold. The pilot would call out his height and range from the beacon and we would deduct 1 mile from this range. The pilots of course had difficulties with the maths so we did it. When the aircraft reached the 1 to 1 position, eg 3000ft 4 miles (deduct 1mile that make 3 miles) the pilot would be instructd to select undercarriage down and was now in the 1000ft per mile descent position heading for the threshold. IF possible the MPN 11 GCA would take over. By servoing fully up the radar return would appear on the azimuth screen,
providing greater accuracy.

At Leeming you will remember that this procedure was not suitable for the JP and instead would descend from the overhead in a controlled spiral.

All the best HarryT

Danny42C
25th Aug 2013, 23:24
Fentiger,

Hallo, Harry ! How could I forget you ! - and our days together on the School and later under your benevolent sovereignity during my final years at Leeming.

First let me welcome you to this best of threads in this best of Forums in the cyberuniverse. I came to it very late in life as an unskilled silver surfer some two years ago; after standing on the sidelines for six months lost in admiration for the giants and their stories, I took the plunge (Post #2250 on p.113) and the rest is here.

Now it seems that I'm the Oldest Inhabitant and it looks as if the Thread may well die with me, but I hope the Moderators will allow it to have an after life of some sort. They allow us surprising latitude, as perhaps you know - you may have kept a crafty eye on us for ages, for all I know.

80 - that's no age ! You're nobbut a lad yet ! I'm trying to keep my stories rooted in my stations to give them some coherence, so I have to finish Strubby (and there's a lot more to come) and then go through Thorney Island, Geilenkirchen, and Linton before I get to the School and finally to Leeming. For the last two I will have to box carefully indeed. We already have ex-"new boys" from the later Leeming recruits, ex studes from the School, and a a QFI from Leeming (who may make themseves known to you by PM if that is their wish). You are right about the 1/1 method, of course, no flamed-out pilot would drop wheels or flaps until he was sure it was "in the bag".

I'm pleased that you, and Bob MacEvoy and other young men we knew, made it to the top (sad about Bob Warwick). Come on in, the water's fine !

Danny.

Chugalug2
26th Aug 2013, 09:00
Fentiger, how marvellous that Danny has a colleague at last to exchange memories with. It is perhaps a marker of his story that he is now approaching that part of it where this will perhaps happen more and more.

...which brings us to your proposition Danny. It is only too typical of you to express the wish that if indeed you are the last to tell us the story of "Gaining An R.A.F. Pilots Brevet In WWII" then the thread should continue anyway.

Ignoring the latitude universally agreed that anyone who served in WWII in the RAF, or indeed in the FAA, or in Army Aviation, is welcome here, I have to reluctantly disagree with you. I can sense the immediate and instinctive opposition that will cause amongst your devoted followers, if for no other reason than that I am one of them! So I beg forbearance while I make my point.

You have posted on another thread that while the odds against survival in the BoB or the Bombing Campaign were harsh, no such risks pertained for you while based in India. Really? I seem to recall accounts of dive bombing Japanese positions, of being stalked by a Japanese fighter (mercifully unbeknown to him thanks to your fine airmanship), quite apart from facing a ditching while loaded with war gas. So what's my point? It is that you share that quality with all your predecessors in this best of all PPRuNe threads, humility. It is that quality that enfolds this thread. It is that quality that defined your generation. It is why, when this thread slips into the great labyrinth of the PPRuNe vaults it should remain true to its title.

No doubt in turn, attention will turn to those who gained an RAF Pilots Brevet in the Cold War. We have only to think of the Korean War, the Suez Campaign, Malaya, Aden, etc, to realise that there will be much of interest and historical record to be covered, but not with respect here. That is for another thread and, I suspect, another time. If it falls to you to bring this thread to an end, and that is by no means certain, then I for one cannot think of it being in better hands for doing so. WWII was always the starting point for those who told their story here. It should remain so.

I'll get my coat...

MPN11
26th Aug 2013, 09:39
A quick hello to Fentiger from one of your former students on the Radar Approach Course … nice to see you here! :cool:

PG

OffshoreSLF
26th Aug 2013, 14:10
Vultee Vengance engine in the RAAF association of WA museum

http://museum.raafawa.org.au/images/igallery/resized/201-300/cyclone_1-233-640-480-100-wm-right_bottom-100-CopyrightRAAFAWA-255-255-255-11.jpg

the museum website page it is on...
Wright Cyclone (http://museum.raafawa.org.au/index.php/engines/item/218-wright-cyclone#!cyclone_1)


How I wish I'd known about this museum when I worked on the NW shelf in WA. I lived in Perth for 18 months, which is fairly close to Bull Creek.

Such is life!

Danny42C
26th Aug 2013, 19:06
Chugalug,

Once again I have to thank you, on behalf of all the wartime generation, for the generous tributes you have paid us on several occasions in this Thread. But I think it would perhaps be better to attribute such virtues as we may have possessed to the well known national characteristic, perfectly put into words by Kipling:

"Greater the deed, greater the need
Lightly to laugh it away.
Shall be the mark of the English breed
Until the Judgment Day".

As to my own case, although it is true that no one can be 100% safe in war, some are in much more danger than others, and it would be unfair to the Bomber Command heroes (and I use that word advisedly) to place their sustained heroism in the same league as our lesser risks in the VV operations. Bluntly, (nearly all) of us lived: half of them died.

Of course, it was the "luck of the draw" - "We each had to fight the war we were given", anyway. And there were cases like Gibson's - survived 100+ bomber ops, only to be shot down (as many believe) in a 'blue on blue' incident in the end.

Qué será será ...Put your coat back on the hook !....D.


OffshoreSLF,

I'm sure there must be Double Cyclones flying around yet (didn't the Mk.I Daks have (single) Cyclones, and aren't they still airborne in odd places - drug running in Columbia, perhaps ?) If so no reason why their big brothers (the 2600 cu.in. Doubles) should not also be).

Studying the picture, just imagine what it was like with those two (open) exhaust stubs (21 litres a side, running under 40 in (Hg absolute) boost), bellowing six feet ahead of your ears in an open cockpit. No wonder the medics found we were all high-tone deaf when we got home !....D.

With that sombre exchange of comments, will put up a funny story next time.

Cheers to you both, Danny.

Danny42C
26th Aug 2013, 20:28
During my three years at Strubby all sorts of things have happened which I think I may have written about in an earlier Post . Now that I no longer have my log-book as a time-frame to hang my stories on, I have hoped to tie them to the station I was serving on at the time, which should avoid my telling the same tale twice. But there will always be a chance that I have "shot that particular fox" already, and I hope you will excuse the lapses of memory. Try this for size.

The RAF, of course, could not countenance the idea of your being idle in the odd hours of the day when you were not actually on watchkeeping duty. Everyone had a Primary Subsidiary Duty on the station, and nearly everybody a Secondary one, too - usually as Officer i/c an airmen's Barrack Hut. For the life of me, I cannot remember what was my Primary at Strubby (so it cannot have been too onerous), but my Barrack room (actually a Nissen hut) sticks out in my memory.

It was the occasion of the Annual AOC's Inspection. The night before, the Hut Corporal and I had kept our chaps' noses to the grindstone to some purpose. The lino had been "bumped" till it shone, the coke stove cleaned and blackleaded to a dull gleam, poker and coal bucket polished, the windows cleaned, fag-ends cleared out of the sand in the fire-bucket, the lamp bulbs and shades dusted, the hut surrounds tidy - you name it, we'd done it. Even the SWO (on his final round of inspection) found little to complain about.

Of course, that wasn't the whole of it. Their job wasn't done yet. Before Reveille next morning the Corporal got them up: every bedspace had to be perfect, beds made up in exact accordance with regulation, bedside lockers neat (artwork stowed away, greatcoats - if not being worn on parade - hung neatly, buttons (and spare boots) brightly polished). They would not have much time for breakfast before it was time to change into Best Blue for the Parade.

When I left the Hut for my own breakfast, I was well satisfied. My hut might not carry off the Best in Class, but it would not be the worst. I looked back on sixteen perfect bedspaces in a perfect Hut. The honour of ATC would be safe in my hands. Or so I thought.

After Parade, the troops dismissed to their places of work. The AVM, faint from his labours of inspecting the ranks, and standing on the saluting platform for a few minutes during the march-past, retired to the Mess for a restorative coffee and bikky.

The Hut Corporal and I raced back to the billet. The airmen's accommodations were first on the inspection list; I reckoned twenty minutes to ground zero. Confidently, we went in, savouring the rich smell of floor polish.

I thought I was hallucinating - indeed prayed it might be so. There were fifteen perfect beds, and on the end an untidy huddle of blankets from which resounded a hearty snore. Officer and NCO stood transfixed with horror for a full second, then without a word hurled themselves on the sleeper.

We ripped the blankets off and threw the poor wight out of bed. It chanced that our line of huts was hard up against an untidy hedge on the outside of the site. We let him put his boots on, tossed a blanket round his pyjamas and bundled him out, through a gap in the hedge into the adjoining field. There he was threatened with death if he showed his face again before we called him. Luckily, it was warm-ish (or what passes for warm-ish in Lincolnshire) and not raining.

Then we shot back to the hut to restore as much of the status quo as time allowed. Nine minutes now. Never was bed made up: biscuits, sheets and blankets together at the head, and all made good, so swiftly. But then, there were two skilled operators on the job - I'd been an 'erk', the old eye had not lost its cunning nor the old hand its skill. The bedspace should withstand a cursory glance. We hoped for the best.

Zero hour came - and went ! It seemed that the AOC had lingered overlong in the Mess, he was running five minutes late, only a selection of huts would now be inspected. After all our hard work, ours was not to be one of them ! We waited for the stand-down: "the Captains and the Kings departed". We rescued our shivering castaway and the story came out.

I think he was a NS airman, and this was his first AOC's Inspection. After his labours in the hut last night he'd been grabbed at the very last minute for Guard duty - someone had dropped out. Returning bleary-eyed in the morning to the empty hut and finding all quiet, he thought that the inspection had already been carried out and had gratefully dived into his pit.

You've gotta larf, haven't you ?

'Night, all,

Danny42C


These little things are meant to try us.

smujsmith
26th Aug 2013, 20:57
Ahh Danny,

Little changes over the years. I had a mate found asleep in his bed on an AOCs rounds. He was charged by the SWO and duly marched in to his boss. Like your chap, after finishing a 12 hour shift, returned to basher and assumed inspection done. The charge was thrown out (quite rightly IMHO) but to this day I always thought that the AOCS could have been more considerate for ongoing ops, and do his inspection earlier. Keep em coming Danny, its all getting closer to home now.

Smudge :ok:

Chugalug2
26th Aug 2013, 21:18
Fear not, Danny, for like all good stories it improves with each telling! The frantic energy with which you both evicted the wretched somnolent and made good his bed space would have done justice to one of Mr Chaplin's moving picture productions (with appropriate allegro accompaniment).

I am sorry to learn that you are minus your log book. If you have mentioned it before I apologise, but I hope that you are only without it temporarily and are to be reunited with it, for mine is an essential prop for when where and what as I'm sure is yours. If it is not temporary then I hope that it is at least arranged, in short that it is not lost to you.

If I eulogise too much about your generation then again apologies. Your Kipling quote is most apposite, but he was a man of his time and so are you. Of course the Bomber Boys suffered a grievous loss rate and most others less so, but there was a wartime spirit that was found throughout, whether it be in our blitzed towns and cities, at sea in the Merchant and Royal Navies, on land in the many Army campaigns, and in the Royal Air Force on the ground and in the air. They did their duty, be they high or low, and we are all the beneficiaries of it.

High Tone deafness is a professional hazard for pilots. I once did an audio test for an RAF MO. He studied the readout and like Hercule Poirot pronounced, "You are on helicopters". "No", I replied, trying to hide the triumphant putdown implicit. "Then you are on Hercules", he countered (correctly).

You ascribe your lost frequencies to the Wright Cyclone, mine evidently was courtesy of the Air Turbine Motor that shrilled away throughout our walkrounds. No ear protectors for us in those days, nor in yours, I'll wager.

Danny42C
26th Aug 2013, 22:14
Chugalug,

Sorry about my not making myself clear about my logbook. It sits by my side, battered but unbowed still. But the last entry, sadly was on 16.11.54, Meteor IV, VW290 - then silence, (CMB chopped me for good three days later).

So now (almost two years after) I have to tie my memories down some other way.

Cheers, Danny.

Fentiger
28th Aug 2013, 17:03
Hello MPN11. Thank you for your hello. Unfortunately I cannot place you. In my time at Shwbury students used to do the initial course and then come back about 6 months later for the MPN11 course. They would greet you in the mess and I have a terrible memory for faces so would say "Hello Sport" quickly dash into the office the next day to look at the course photos and put a name to the face. Cheating really but am hopeless at faces and now 80 years for age so getting worse.

Danny42C
29th Aug 2013, 17:32
Unless you were living in an OMQ on a Station, there was always a mobility problem - for your wife. Very few plutocrats were able to run two cars, so if you took the family vehicle on duty with you, she was left stuck at home. So one of the first things to be arranged was some very cheap and simple transport for yourself. If (as was the case at Strubby) you only had a five-mile commute, then (given dry weather) the humble pushbike was a possibility - or cadge a lift in someone else's car.

The next stage up was a moped, but before then, in the early fifties, a number of small bicycle auxiliary power units came onto the market. Most of these were to fit in place of the back or front carrier, to drive the wheel through a roller clamped down on the tyre. The popular "Cyclemaster", roller driven on the rear wheel, was one such. The rear tyre had to be pumped up really hard, and the tyre wear was enormous.

On the other hand, the road tax was very small (or nil?), although it had to be registered as a vehicle, insured, and they would run for ever on a gallon of two-stoke mixture. BSA made big motorbikes and entered this market with a much better idea - the "Winged Wheel". As ever, Google has some fine pictures and all the description you need.

BSA sold a complete new outfit (special heavy-duty bike with sprung forks, comfortable saddle and beefed-up brakes, W/Wheel fitted) for £25. But I thought I could do better than that. Before e-Bay ruled the market, we had "Exchange & Mart". There was one on offer (just the Wheel, not the bike, plus tank plus front/rear lights), "mint" for £12/15/-. I bought it. (Google shows a complete nice one for sale now at - wait for it - £1100 !)

Now I wanted a bike to go with it. That cost 15/-, it had seen better days. One look at the wheels - scrap !. A new 26x1½ in wheel+tyre cost me another £1. The frame needed a good sandpapering, derusting and a dollop of some BRG paint I had lying about. With that dry, I assembled the Wheel into it, and sallied forth. It went fine. I reckoned 25 mph max, 15-20 cruise. But the old bike saddle was excruciating at those speeds, I had to replace it with a moped type at another £2-3. The 'bargain' was not as good as it first appeared.

But our transport problem was solved. One breezy morning I was on GCA duty. It was a "bracing" (ie petrifying wind - from Ulan Bator with love behind me); we would be on 09, the truck would be at the NE corner of the field, I could save the last mile off my journey (and avoid the jam at the camp gates) by using a short cut in the back way (gap in hedge). That brought me out quite close to the truck.

On the runway, abeam the GCA, lay a sad sight: a beautiful pale blue Canberra ("Aries" IV or V), with the wheels part down. I joined the small group of onlookers. What had happened ? At first sight it looked clear enough - u/c collapse on landing. But there was only one long thin central scar down the runway from the fuselage, but none from the outer u/c doors where they lay on the tarmac. So either they had collapsed at the moment the aircraft had come to rest, or the pilot had simply landed wheels-up and selected "down" after he stopped - in the vain hope, perhaps, of blaming the Canberra.

The Empire Flying College (curiously, references to it as it was at that time now always use the name "RAF Flying College" - are we ashamed of the Empire ?) was very cagey about this incident. It was jacked-up, put on its wheels and towed away, seemingly undamaged. This was one of the "special" Canberras kept at Manby which had "swept the board" of World Distance and Altitude Records. It seemed that it had come into Strubby for a GCA late the night before, after a very long trial run for, or actual attempt on, another Record. The affair was swept under the carpet.

There were Extenuating Circumstances: The pilot (rumoured to be a VSO) was utterly exhausted at the end of his very long flight. These things happen. Could have been anyone of us, after all. (I cannot find any report on this incident in Google, others may have more luck - or more skill in the search than I - I can't be more precise about the date than to say that '57-'58 should cover it).

We would have had more sympathy for the pilot had he not (as was widely believed) tried to pray in aid an allegation that Talkdown had not given him the mandatory "Check you have three greens for landing" at the three-mile point. Talkdown had been my friend "Vin" Harvey, but I am sure that no Talkdown could possibly have missed this: we must have said it hundreds of times. But the accusation still stuck; henceforth our procedure was changed: as three miles was coming up we would open the squawk-box to Local for a few seconds so that we should have a good witness that the words had been said.

And then there was another incident, a few days later. At the very last moment of the day, they decided to send a Meteor over to Manby for Intermediate Inspection. They grabbed a F/Sgt instructor. The thing had just come in from a sortie and had not been refuelled, but they reckoned there was enough to take it the cock-stride to Manby. He rushed off: of course there
wasn't, one flamed out half way, the other on long finals. He finished up in the undershoot.

They court-martialled him (it must have been after 'Gus' Walker left for 1 Gp., for he'd never have stood for it), and broke him down to Sergeant. Everybody was furious. Comparison of the two cases left a nasty taste in the mouth for a long time.

Some more interesting Truck moves next time.

Goodnight, all.


Danny42C


There's one law for the Rich, and another for the Poor.

MPN11
30th Aug 2013, 14:53
Danny, Mon Vieux, you have clicked a synapse.

We single Strubby ATCOs lived in the Mess(es) at Manby. There was, of course, a luxury blue coach provided by MT which ran between the Hallowed Halls of the CAW and that obscure (not so little) RLG at Strubby. But what use was that to a shift-working ATCO?

Basically, we worked split-shifts. Morning/evening on Day 1, afternoon on Day 2, rinse and repeat. Let's say 0700-1230 and 1800-whenever ... Remember that was Flying Training Command, and I'll come back to that aspect. A few controllers worked "days" 0900-1700, to augment for peak traffic, although that was a rarity ... Except in GCA.

Now it's all very well having a Crew Coach turn up at Strubby at 07-whatever ready to start the day. But ATC has to carry out runway inspections, get the GCA truck set up, attend/contribute to the morning briefing, etc etc. so last-minute.Strubby doesn't work. We have to be there earlier. Then comes lunchtime ... Usual manning for the Truck was one on morning, one on afternoon and one on days. So the morning finished at 1300, the afternoon started at 1200, which gave the day-worker a chance to grab lunch at the feeder on the old Domestic site. Ahhh ... But wait!!! When does the coach go? 1230, IIRC, and the next one is at 1500. So the morning shift controller is marooned until then, and yet may be required back at work at 1800.

Or not ... Because this was FTC. Night flying was, strangely, conducted in the dark. This meant, in Summer, that it didn't start until 2130+ and often, if the programme was a bit behind, didn't finish until dawn's early light around 0500. Than back to Manby, to grab a few hours' sleep, before being back on watch at 1200. At this point I should note that the Mess lay under the downwind leg of Manby, so the whine of the constant thrust, variable noise, JPs ensured fitful slumber. And then off to work again ... For 1200.

At this point in this interjection, you may have noticed a lack of detail called "meal times". Essentially, the GCA shifts and MT times precluded eating. Early breakfast - possible. Lunch - forget it. Dinner - ahhh, often too late starting, got to go to work.

The only solution to having a vaguely human existence, as an ATCO, was to have independent transport. Then, with luck, you could get to the Mess for a meal, or get to work having had one ... Most of the time.

I was luckier than Danny ... My uniform allowance on commissioning had been squandered on £115 of Hillman Minx. I was mobile. I was still paying tailors some 4 years down the line, but at least I got to eat as a GCA controller at Strubby.

Danny42C
30th Aug 2013, 22:48
MPN11,

I have been off line a lot over the past few days (broadband giving no end of grief), just got back after PPRuNe-less 48 hrs. I'm full of sympathy for you - life seems to have been so complicated at Strubby in your time. Now I come to think of it, I don't think we had any bachelor ATCOs when I was there. Of course, we were all old men then !

Here is another short AOC Inspection snippet which may amuse, while I am cooking up more solid fare.

Danny.


There is another AOCs Inspection story for which I accept no responsibility whatever,as it was told to Mrs D. by one of her pals at Strubby. I do not even know the Station involved.

However, it seems that, as the fatal day neared, they did a bit of research and found that it was the AOC's birthday. Would it not be a splendid idea if they were to bake a cake in honour of the event ? Then when he retired to the Mess for elevenses after the rigours of the Parade, he could enjoy this cake with his coffee instead of the customary dry biscuits. And just look at the brownie points that could accrue to the Station thereby ! (after all, you can hardly write-down a place after it has been so gracious to you, now can you ?).

The Mess Sgt Cook was (unusually) skilled in the arts of cake baking and decorating. And this was as well, as they had decided to embellish the cake surface with their guest's full title, honours and awards. And these were legion, as he had had a long and distinguished career (there were some who muttered "too long" - but we may safely ignore these disaffected individuals). This was duly accomplished: it did look good. Now all that was needed was to convey it to the anteroom on the morning.

What exactly happened I do not know. The cake suffered little damage, but what there was was vital. Most of the letters, figures and full stops had been scuffed off the top. There was barely time to whip up a fresh batch of icing sugar, and certainly no time for it to set. What is quick-setting, white and smooth, and easily moulded ? As with many problems, when you define it in exact detail, the answer presents itself. They looked on the shelf and found a box of "Polyfiller".......

I believe that the repairs were entirely convincing (in appearance). How "Polyfiller" would taste I do not know and do not intend to try. The affected pieces must have been kept well away from the official visitors. Perhaps some junior officers were let into the secret and invited (?), for the good of the Station to crunch, lie back and think of England.

D.

jaganpvs
31st Aug 2013, 03:56
Danny,

Many thanks for your note on Keyforums and also your answers to my queries. I decided I will turn up here and get the gen directly!

In the meantime to commemorate your time with 8 Squadron IAF, I thought I would post some photos here! Hope you will find some of your friends in them!

Best regards

Jagan

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1940s/Images/Vengeance-Niranjan.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1940s/Philip/8Sqn06.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1940s/Philip/8Sqn02.jpg

ACW418
31st Aug 2013, 09:04
Danny,

The coincidences continue! Not only were we at Linton together but I think I met your Flight Sergeant at St Mawgan.
I had finished all the exercises and tests on the JP at Syerston without having completed the required 160 hours so my instructor, a Master Pilot, said we had to go on a long land away of my choosing, except it was to St Mawgan of his choosing. He blamed me for letting down on St Eval, but that has already been reported on an earlier post. On arrival on 2 Jan 1964 we went into one of the Shackleton squadrons to meet his old mates. He became incandescent when he discovered one them had been commissioned as a Flying Officer despite having run out of fuel between Manby and Strubby in a Meteor. This chap apparently pulled off a text book forced landing and there was no damage to the aircraft. He got a Good Show after the obligatory bollocking. I might add that my instructor had been on three commissioning courses at Jurby but had been failed on all of them for drinking so he did not sit on the moral high ground.
I think it too much of a coincidence that there were two similar incidents and it most likely was the same chap.

ACW

Yamagata ken
31st Aug 2013, 09:59
Excellent Jagan. Thanks for posting. Your second photo brings new meaning to the term "uniform". Haha hahaha

Danny42C
31st Aug 2013, 23:54
Jaganpvs

Jagan,

Welcome into our noble fellowship ! (I liken it to a virtual crewroom in cyberspace, in which all are welcome with their contributions about military (and civil) aviation ancient and modern, and are free to question and comment thereon, only provided no harsh word is said).

I am particularly glad to welcome you from that land of maharajahs, king cobras, elephants and storytellers where I misspent nearly four years of my (very) distant youth - and of course we've met before (on Key Publishing Forums) - any chance of getting any more ? - and a WWII survivor would be marvellous !

And thank you for the three evocative pics, which I shall call A,B,& C in order of appearance, and on which a word or two may be of interest. Until next time, then,

Cheers ! Danny.

'''''''
Photo 'A',

Sqdn/Ldr Prasad, of course ! and crewman (unknown)....(puzzle): Why is he wearing what looks like a Sidcot suit ? Bengal/Assam/Arakan much too hot, could be OTU at Peshawar (gets very cold in winter up on the Frontier). If so, why is VV so muddy ?....Note prominent "stirrup" on oleo leg, which pilots used for quick scramble up onto wing over to cockpit.....We never "masked" the gun ports (front guns never used anyway).

Photo 'B',

No prize for spotting Boss: Sqn Ldr. Ira K.Sutherland DFC RNZAF - every bit as tough as he looks ! Think it may be Flt.Lt. Dugdale (Flt. Commander) at his R. hand. Don't remember other chap......Why are the aircrew wearing side arms for photograph ?.....What is that hat, looks like a WW1 tin hat painted white ?.....Note how massive the VV was !

I am not on this, and do not remember it. It will have been taken after 24.2.44., when I was carted off after the crash.

Photo 'C',

Same again. Again, the "Sidcop" suit and fur (?) collar (what on earth for ?) No prizes for spotting "Chiefy" in front. Reckon he could keep "Good Order and Air Force Discipline !"

As Yamagata Ken says, hardly Savile Row !.....D.

Danny42C
1st Sep 2013, 00:49
ACW418,

Truly, a bit too much of a coincidence ! The story your M/P retold to you does sound a bit odd, though.

The chap ran out of fuel between Strubby and Manby, (only 7 miles) and he force-landed it without damage ? Would you try it with a Meteor wheels down in some cabbage patch when you don't know what's underneath ? Nor would I ! And, wheels-up, he must have done some damage, if only minor.

And a "Good Show !" Did your M/P say he'd actually seen it in "Air Clues", or was it just as the chap told it ? It looks as if he'd been gilding the lily a bit.

I prefer the story we heard at the time. In that, the last engine failed on long finals to Manby, he put it down u/c up in the approach lights only a short distance from the threshold.

Given that, and the Court Martial, would the rest of the story hold water ? I reckon it very well could. '64 is 8 years after our incident. A year's penance to build up the seniority to get his crown back, wait another year and he's still got plenty of time to get put up for his Commission. And with everyone in the Command feeling sorry for what had been done to him, he'd be a shoo-in.

D.

dubbleyew eight
1st Sep 2013, 01:58
why was he wearing a sidcot suit in the tropical heat?

in the tropics and australia it can get very hot on the ground. aviation at altitudes over 10,000ft can have the aircraft in sub zero temperatures for hours. the sidcot suit is appropriate in the cold.

in WW2 in the defence of Darwin australians were eventually supplied spitfires.
many pilots died in those spitfires because of the cold at altitude.
the propeller units were setup on the assumption of tropical heat. the pilots found that at altitude in the cold the propellers would lock into full fine and if the merlin didnt destruct from overspeed the jap guy behind would end your days with an easy shot.
australian mechanics came to the realisation that the oil in the prop hub was thickening in the cold and was unable to make the return to the engine. as the hub pressurised the blades went to full fine.
solution they came up with was to drill out the return galleries in the prop to allow flow of the cold oil. once that was sorted out the japs got a much harder time of it.
from personal experience a ground temp on the nullabor of 45C will be at 0C up at 9,500ft. the difference can cause props to come loose.

jaganpvs
1st Sep 2013, 03:16
Dear Danny,

Let me dig up what more I have..

And thanks for your thoughts on the photos..

Photo 'A',

The gunner in the photo is apparently Plt Offr Jagjit Singh . I think we can see him in Photo 'B' - the only Sikh with the turban.,


Photos B and C were certainly taken after 27.3.44 - because Sqn Ldr Sutherland took over command on that date!.. they may have been taken in quick succession - as I can see Tinhat man and Sidcot man in both photos apparently looking like they were taken moments apart.


I got these photos and the others i am posting below ten years ago when I visited late Gp Capt Philips. I only had a crummy digitial camera and the result was these poor copies...

Others from that visit

8 Squadron group - said to be immediately after formation - thus no RAF/Commonwealth officers other than Indians in this picture. You can make out the CO Prasad, Flight Commander Chopra, Plt Offr Jagjit Singh and J S Dhillon..


http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1940s/Philip/8Sqn07.jpg

Ground crew - photo had inscription "Some of my boys"
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1940s/Philip/8Sqn08.jpg

Now this is photo of Gp Capt CGI Philips. I kick myself for the poor quality reproduction. But the Vengeance that he was standing by - he said was his with an emblem of a lightning weilded by a hand/fist.. and the sorties marked as bombs..

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1940s/Philip/8Sqn04.jpg

and finally a better photo of him - when the sqn converted to Spit VIIIs..

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1940s/Philip/PhilipSpit_Small.jpg

Also one more story about 8 Squadron..
Dodging a Vultee Vengeance in India (http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?9173-Dodging-a-Vultee-Vengeance-in-India) about Ettinger.. you heard or seen it I hope!

And Canadian historian Hugh Halliday's interest in 8 Sqn RIAF!
No.8 Squadron, IAF (http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?14375-No.8-Squadron-IAF)