MANCHESTER 1
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'Live and Let Live!'
TURIN / All,
Here is a much better idea for you. Click 'User CP' at the top left of your PPRuNe page. Then enter the user names of all those posters who irritate or bore you ("usual suspects") into 'IGNORE LIST'. Once you have done this, you won't have to read any postings from the "usual suspects" again. But those readers who are interested in the wider issues pertaining to Manchester Airport will still be able to do so. What's not to like?
Alternatively, I can assess at a glance whether a post contains subject matter which interests me personally or not. I suspect that this ability is widely shared. Thus I skip or read postings as I choose. It could hardly be more straightforward.
On any public message board, each individual user wants something slightly different from the experience. There will always be posts which (interest / bore rigid) any one individual. I can't or wouldn't wish to say: 'This particular topic doesn't interest me personally, therefore discussion of it should be banned for everybody'. That is self-indulgent and intolerant behaviour.
Some readers want a superficial briefing of new air services only. Some want to know which handling agent is going to be awarded the contract for 'Airline X'. Some want to discuss airport infrastructure. Some are interested in day-to-day operations or incidents (eg. Virgin Water Salute). Some are interested in management changes. Some want to discuss the effects of actions by competitors or government on the operation at MAN. And then there is Airport City, Terminals redevelopment, security and immigration queueing times, new retail outlets in the terminals, Flight delays / changes / diversions, business and first class uptake, fare comparisons / APD, monthly stats, potential for US pre-immigration at MAN, airport hotels, cargo news, car parking on aircraft stands, Winter Snowplan, 'No Div' NOTAMS. And of course, Manchester Airport Ground Transport Interchange, featuring trains, trams and buses! It is all topical, but not of interest to every reader all of the time.
So just use the skimming technique and the 'ignore list' (that is why it is provided). Take responsibility for your own reading. Use your own discretion, be selective. Then it is smiles all round!
Here is a much better idea for you. Click 'User CP' at the top left of your PPRuNe page. Then enter the user names of all those posters who irritate or bore you ("usual suspects") into 'IGNORE LIST'. Once you have done this, you won't have to read any postings from the "usual suspects" again. But those readers who are interested in the wider issues pertaining to Manchester Airport will still be able to do so. What's not to like?
Alternatively, I can assess at a glance whether a post contains subject matter which interests me personally or not. I suspect that this ability is widely shared. Thus I skip or read postings as I choose. It could hardly be more straightforward.
On any public message board, each individual user wants something slightly different from the experience. There will always be posts which (interest / bore rigid) any one individual. I can't or wouldn't wish to say: 'This particular topic doesn't interest me personally, therefore discussion of it should be banned for everybody'. That is self-indulgent and intolerant behaviour.
Some readers want a superficial briefing of new air services only. Some want to know which handling agent is going to be awarded the contract for 'Airline X'. Some want to discuss airport infrastructure. Some are interested in day-to-day operations or incidents (eg. Virgin Water Salute). Some are interested in management changes. Some want to discuss the effects of actions by competitors or government on the operation at MAN. And then there is Airport City, Terminals redevelopment, security and immigration queueing times, new retail outlets in the terminals, Flight delays / changes / diversions, business and first class uptake, fare comparisons / APD, monthly stats, potential for US pre-immigration at MAN, airport hotels, cargo news, car parking on aircraft stands, Winter Snowplan, 'No Div' NOTAMS. And of course, Manchester Airport Ground Transport Interchange, featuring trains, trams and buses! It is all topical, but not of interest to every reader all of the time.
So just use the skimming technique and the 'ignore list' (that is why it is provided). Take responsibility for your own reading. Use your own discretion, be selective. Then it is smiles all round!
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Re. 'Live and Let Live!'
Shed's excellent advice in post #1466 above is simple and effective. Please follow it if you don't like certain posters' comments (mine included, doubtless).
That way, everyone is happy, and there's no need for trolling.
That way, everyone is happy, and there's no need for trolling.
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Manchester Airport is in a world of competing pressures, Heathrow is one of many !
This is a discussion which is not "an instead of" , "it's an as well as..."
I'm delighted that Iraqi Airways OR the new Virgin is booked out for the next two months but equally what happens at LHR does effect what happens up here in a variety of ways, discreet or otherwise. If it is not a legitimate debate I really cannot see what is.
On a theme....
There is much discussion currently is there not about "connectivity" to the regions from Heathrow, not least in the Manchester area, step forward my two favorite local MPs Mr Graham Stringer and Mr Graham Brady, whose support for Heathrow expansion is unequivocal.
Their constituents are of course apathetic, they simply do not understand the growth prospects that a 60% full, twice daily Fokker "might" bring, to Durham Tees Valley in say 20 years time ! To be fair I'm struggling myself.
But wait, what's this ? is it possible that a number of "other regions" are ALSO being sadly neglected ?
What of Wales, Chester, Cumbria, North Lancashire and Humberside all of whom are "currently" screaming blue murder with ref to Manchester Airport. They are exercise by access or lack of it. Not by air in 20 years time, but by rail and NOW !
.....and this to an airport that they perceive as "more important" than Heathrow ! I won't quote all media sources but trust me there are many MPs, business leaders and Civic Chiefs in each of these areas who are furious about quality and consistency of delivery ! And therin lies the problem, a number of us do see this as vital, more so than pontificating about the vision of a route from one region 200 miles away to another, which is yet another 200 miles in the other direction !
Where is the pressure to solve THIS ?
Where is the vociferous tub thumping in OUR area ?
Who is raising such legitimate comparisons with Davies etc ?
Apologies, but personally our frustration I would suggest occasionally boils over, not based an an Anti Heathrow stance but a blinding inability by those local MPs in our area to avoid involvement in the "bl..ding obvious"
This is a discussion which is not "an instead of" , "it's an as well as..."
I'm delighted that Iraqi Airways OR the new Virgin is booked out for the next two months but equally what happens at LHR does effect what happens up here in a variety of ways, discreet or otherwise. If it is not a legitimate debate I really cannot see what is.
On a theme....
There is much discussion currently is there not about "connectivity" to the regions from Heathrow, not least in the Manchester area, step forward my two favorite local MPs Mr Graham Stringer and Mr Graham Brady, whose support for Heathrow expansion is unequivocal.
Their constituents are of course apathetic, they simply do not understand the growth prospects that a 60% full, twice daily Fokker "might" bring, to Durham Tees Valley in say 20 years time ! To be fair I'm struggling myself.
But wait, what's this ? is it possible that a number of "other regions" are ALSO being sadly neglected ?
What of Wales, Chester, Cumbria, North Lancashire and Humberside all of whom are "currently" screaming blue murder with ref to Manchester Airport. They are exercise by access or lack of it. Not by air in 20 years time, but by rail and NOW !
.....and this to an airport that they perceive as "more important" than Heathrow ! I won't quote all media sources but trust me there are many MPs, business leaders and Civic Chiefs in each of these areas who are furious about quality and consistency of delivery ! And therin lies the problem, a number of us do see this as vital, more so than pontificating about the vision of a route from one region 200 miles away to another, which is yet another 200 miles in the other direction !
Where is the pressure to solve THIS ?
Where is the vociferous tub thumping in OUR area ?
Who is raising such legitimate comparisons with Davies etc ?
Apologies, but personally our frustration I would suggest occasionally boils over, not based an an Anti Heathrow stance but a blinding inability by those local MPs in our area to avoid involvement in the "bl..ding obvious"
Last edited by Bagso; 1st Apr 2015 at 08:11.
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Shed, excellent post and good advice.
In my view, Bagso is right. Connectivity, much lauded by Davies and supporters of Heathrow expansion, can be about train as well as air services. Recent articles show that Hull and North Wales/Chester are keen to get direct trains to MAN, but it seems that even with the Northern Hub and its Ordsall Chord, there won't be enough 'paths' on the airport line. But trains is apparently a taboo subject on here with no relevance to the airport so I'll say no more.
In my view, Bagso is right. Connectivity, much lauded by Davies and supporters of Heathrow expansion, can be about train as well as air services. Recent articles show that Hull and North Wales/Chester are keen to get direct trains to MAN, but it seems that even with the Northern Hub and its Ordsall Chord, there won't be enough 'paths' on the airport line. But trains is apparently a taboo subject on here with no relevance to the airport so I'll say no more.
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On the theme of connectivity it is odd that the posters here, and presumably those behind the pro HAL proposal, are happy for people in the regions to either connect over Heathrow or state that if one regional airport closes there is another 30, 40 or 50 miles away, ignore the fact that people in Reading, with a good surface connection to Gatwick, or from Hammersmith, with excellent connections, complain about having to travel to Sussex.
This is not me quoting odd instances but is based on working for companies based in the Home Counties for many years and living in Sussex for twelve years where there was a demand for more services from Gatwick because people didn't want the trouble and expense of travelling to Heathrow.
However, in the case of Manchester there is a demonstrable demand for connectivity by surface transport. Heathrow has good surface and underground connections, Gatwick is well served. Manchester does well but demand outstrips availability and it seems the surface transfer provider is more interested in what it wants to provide a couple of years down the track rather than what the travelling public wants today.
This is not me quoting odd instances but is based on working for companies based in the Home Counties for many years and living in Sussex for twelve years where there was a demand for more services from Gatwick because people didn't want the trouble and expense of travelling to Heathrow.
However, in the case of Manchester there is a demonstrable demand for connectivity by surface transport. Heathrow has good surface and underground connections, Gatwick is well served. Manchester does well but demand outstrips availability and it seems the surface transfer provider is more interested in what it wants to provide a couple of years down the track rather than what the travelling public wants today.
Last edited by philbky; 1st Apr 2015 at 08:30. Reason: Additional thoughts and to avoid the T word.!!
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where there was a demand for more services from Gatwick because people didn't want the trouble and expense of travelling to Heathrow.
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There is just one fundamental point here. There is one rule for London and the Home Counties, another for the regions. This isn't a new phenomenon, it happens elsewhere but to a much lesser degree.
Please do not try to teach me how to suck eggs. At 68 years of age, a retired owner of an international conference company dealing in aviation matters working with airlines, airports, ATC and governments around the world at the highest levels and with over 40 years experience in business management in a variety of industries, including a stint in local government as head of one of the UK' s first private public partnerships at Greater Manchester Council, I'm well aware of what sweating assets entails, business practices and business jargon.
Please do not try to teach me how to suck eggs. At 68 years of age, a retired owner of an international conference company dealing in aviation matters working with airlines, airports, ATC and governments around the world at the highest levels and with over 40 years experience in business management in a variety of industries, including a stint in local government as head of one of the UK' s first private public partnerships at Greater Manchester Council, I'm well aware of what sweating assets entails, business practices and business jargon.
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There is just one fundamental point here. There is one rule for London and the Home Counties, another for the regions. This isn't a new phenomenon, it happens elsewhere but to a much lesser degree.
Please do not try to teach me how to suck eggs. At 68 years of age, a retired owner of an international conference company dealing in aviation matters working with airlines, airports, ATC and governments around the world at the highest levels and with over 40 years experience in business management in a variety of industries, including a stint in local government as head of one of the UK' s first private public partnerships at Greater Manchester Council, I'm well aware of what sweating assets entails, business practices and business jargon.
Please do not try to teach me how to suck eggs. At 68 years of age, a retired owner of an international conference company dealing in aviation matters working with airlines, airports, ATC and governments around the world at the highest levels and with over 40 years experience in business management in a variety of industries, including a stint in local government as head of one of the UK' s first private public partnerships at Greater Manchester Council, I'm well aware of what sweating assets entails, business practices and business jargon.
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Marketing Analyst....the phraseology gave it away. According to many legacy carriers there was no demand for @flights from x and their marketing analysts said the passengers would be happy to transfer through y. Then along came the LoCos. They either tapped into a demand or created one and how did the legacy carriers respond? They either fled (BA at MAN for instance) or as the LoCo prices went up fought back with increased schedules, (Air France, Brussels Airlines, SAS, at MAN for instance). Direct flights from Newcastle,Birmingham, Glasgow, Edinburgh etc. Are not run by airlines grandstanding and flying flags. They are there because the market exists, people want and use them and they produce a profit.
The thinking behind the HAL proposals is partly predicated on the regions feeding Heathrow. The analysts have done their homework and presented HAL with a scenario that fits in that regard almost denying the fact that passengers have deserted Heathrow in droves for Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Paris or elsewhere when direct flights aren't available from their local airport. That behaviour is very unlikely to change. We have had the implant travel agent phenomenon where even when there have been direct and convenient flights from a regional airport the agent has ticketed people over Heathrow on a cheaper fare (more often than not on BA) found through bulk discounting, ignoring any problems of inconvenience of timing, missed connections and everything else that direct flights should overcome. Fortunately many companies realised the the penny saving had become pound foolish when human factors were taken into account as staff rebelled when they became aware of direct flights.
What the HAL proposal's affects on regional airports would do is inconvenience thousands of people, turn the clock back thirty years and more and give the impression overseas that the UK has only one centre of importance.
By the way, I've come across many marketing analysts in my time. Many are concientious, hard working,accurate and have helped build businesses. There are those, however, who are happy to analyse situations in a way that they can present what the employer/client wants to hear, just so long as they get paid. From your many erudite posts I know you don't belong in the latter category but please accept my experience with tangible and intangible products over many years, that the human being doesn't always, indeed often rarely, behaves as expected.
The thinking behind the HAL proposals is partly predicated on the regions feeding Heathrow. The analysts have done their homework and presented HAL with a scenario that fits in that regard almost denying the fact that passengers have deserted Heathrow in droves for Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Paris or elsewhere when direct flights aren't available from their local airport. That behaviour is very unlikely to change. We have had the implant travel agent phenomenon where even when there have been direct and convenient flights from a regional airport the agent has ticketed people over Heathrow on a cheaper fare (more often than not on BA) found through bulk discounting, ignoring any problems of inconvenience of timing, missed connections and everything else that direct flights should overcome. Fortunately many companies realised the the penny saving had become pound foolish when human factors were taken into account as staff rebelled when they became aware of direct flights.
What the HAL proposal's affects on regional airports would do is inconvenience thousands of people, turn the clock back thirty years and more and give the impression overseas that the UK has only one centre of importance.
By the way, I've come across many marketing analysts in my time. Many are concientious, hard working,accurate and have helped build businesses. There are those, however, who are happy to analyse situations in a way that they can present what the employer/client wants to hear, just so long as they get paid. From your many erudite posts I know you don't belong in the latter category but please accept my experience with tangible and intangible products over many years, that the human being doesn't always, indeed often rarely, behaves as expected.
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Positive news re MAN-KEF. Iceland seems to be getting increasingly popular.
LAX LHR, have you any idea when Ryanair might be loading their winter schedules from MAN? DUB and the 2 Portugal destinations are loaded but nothing else so far.
Referring to an earlier post by Shed, it would be rather nice if MAN's newly promoted MD, Ken O'Toole, had some good news to announce along with his former boss MOL. With less active based RYR a/c for the winter, stands shouldn't be a problem and it would give MAN time to do something about stands 56,57,58 for next summer!
LAX LHR, have you any idea when Ryanair might be loading their winter schedules from MAN? DUB and the 2 Portugal destinations are loaded but nothing else so far.
Referring to an earlier post by Shed, it would be rather nice if MAN's newly promoted MD, Ken O'Toole, had some good news to announce along with his former boss MOL. With less active based RYR a/c for the winter, stands shouldn't be a problem and it would give MAN time to do something about stands 56,57,58 for next summer!
you won't have to read any postings from the "usual suspects" again.
The MAN thread has been locked before for the same reasons. Drivel, counterpoint arguments, hamster wheels, essays.
Keep it brief. Life is too short.
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MANFOD
I'm wondering too if FR have something up their sleeve. Nothing on sale from EMA either apart from DUB, FAO and SXF. Could be co-incidence but both obviously are MAG airports...
I'm wondering too if FR have something up their sleeve. Nothing on sale from EMA either apart from DUB, FAO and SXF. Could be co-incidence but both obviously are MAG airports...
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TURIN - If you adjudge the postings of regular 'MANCHESTER 1' contributors to be "drivel, counterpoint arguments, hamster wheels, essays", I am bemused as to why you would wish to read the thoughts of those very same people on ANY other thread? My own postings conform to exactly the same [brilliant / atrocious] standard in whichever thread I comment. You have the facility to screen those posts out. If you elect not to avail yourself of that facility, you cannot then demand that those other posters dance to your tune.
You make your own choice at the point when you decide to read a posting or ignore it. As for the composition of the postings, that is the privilege of each individual contributor. They are the authors. It is not your call as a remote observer jeering from the sidelines. You compose your own posts how you want; leave others to compose theirs as they will.
Since the 'MANCHESTER 1' thread reopened it has attracted 304,764 page views in just over four months (at the time of writing). A substantial proportion of the content therein is provided by those same people you appear to object to. There is actually a very compact core of active 'MANCHESTER 1' contributors considering the high readership here. That 304,764 figure suggest to me that they must be doing something right. Their postings clearly generate a high volume of interest. So there must be some element of approval even if that does not include yourself.
I find it remarkable also that those few who are objecting to the direction of the thread are rarely active contributors to the discussion themselves. One even appears to be a first-time poster. If you want the Manchester thread to become a morgue, urging the mods to ban all the core contributors (leaving only those who post to whinge about others) seems the right way to go about it.
I further suggest that PPRuNe's advertisers will be quite gratified to note intelligent, in-depth debate which draws 300,000+ page views in four months to a single thread in a sub-forum. And all with no profanities or libellous behaviour to worry about.
If (your) life is too short, use the 'ignore list' tool. Don't lecture the rest of us about our posting content if you choose to read on regardless.
You make your own choice at the point when you decide to read a posting or ignore it. As for the composition of the postings, that is the privilege of each individual contributor. They are the authors. It is not your call as a remote observer jeering from the sidelines. You compose your own posts how you want; leave others to compose theirs as they will.
Since the 'MANCHESTER 1' thread reopened it has attracted 304,764 page views in just over four months (at the time of writing). A substantial proportion of the content therein is provided by those same people you appear to object to. There is actually a very compact core of active 'MANCHESTER 1' contributors considering the high readership here. That 304,764 figure suggest to me that they must be doing something right. Their postings clearly generate a high volume of interest. So there must be some element of approval even if that does not include yourself.
I find it remarkable also that those few who are objecting to the direction of the thread are rarely active contributors to the discussion themselves. One even appears to be a first-time poster. If you want the Manchester thread to become a morgue, urging the mods to ban all the core contributors (leaving only those who post to whinge about others) seems the right way to go about it.
I further suggest that PPRuNe's advertisers will be quite gratified to note intelligent, in-depth debate which draws 300,000+ page views in four months to a single thread in a sub-forum. And all with no profanities or libellous behaviour to worry about.
If (your) life is too short, use the 'ignore list' tool. Don't lecture the rest of us about our posting content if you choose to read on regardless.
Shed, I read your first paragraph and got utterly bored soon after. Didn't read the rest. 
That is the point.
That is the point.
Who said that? 
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TURIN, with you all the way mate. These essays we get from certain people on here are the same recycled bollox that they have been posting for the last few years. Like you I rarely make it to the end of the first paragraph as by the second line you realise it's Groundhog Day again.....
Sadly methinks its Mod time again....
Sadly methinks its Mod time again....
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re MAN-KEF. Iceland seems to be getting increasingly popular.
Cheers MANFlyer.
Right back to MAN.
What's happening with Hainan?
Right back to MAN.
What's happening with Hainan?