I will be sad if they go - I had hoped to work for them at some point. But I hope the guys are all getting applications out to get in elsewhere ahead of those who want a change of employer rather than are looking at likely redundancy. As much as I would like Mon to survive, I think it's unlikely in the circumstances. I'm sure everyone has dusted off their CVs. I've been there once, and wouldn't wish it on anyone. Hope you all land on your feet.

LNIDA BS
 

LNIDA, you continue to spout BS, particularly if you think MAEL is profitable. Why do you think they might be profitable? Your naivety is breathtaking!

Monarch has been comfortable in easy's and FR's "turf" since they were born and only has 15% non-scheduled work left so it is hardly a major shift in emphasis from where we are now to move to 100% scheduled.

Mon has been taking on easy and FR for a decade or more and is no 1 or 2 on all the routes it competes with them on. And that's WITH all the cost base issues!

If those cost base issues are pretty much instantly removed by the restructure, the company (which was profitable last year let's remember) will clearly be able to compete very well.

I know you guys in easy and FR don't like it, but the fact is that you are :mad: yourselves. If you are all so good at what you do, why have you failed to eliminate Monarch over the last 15 years? Benevolent shareholder? No, ruthless shareholder who is a multi-billionaire for a reason. He may exit the airline, but that doesn't mean he's exiting the game - the airline is but a small pawn in his game.

....because the previous board of Monarch were doing it themselves? I don't wish to sound harsh, but your statement comes across as a little "delusional".

Turning it round, why have Monarch allowed EZJ and RYR to become 200+ and 300+ fleets generating profits of £500,000,000 per year in the last 15 years?

Rushed Approach you're in denial. Who do you back? Easyjet, Ryanair or chintzy old has been Monarch? As Cyril Conolley said :

Hold tight everyone, also read up on what happened to Phones 4u over the last two years or so since it was sold to a VC.

RHINO - I read the letter. Maybe you missed that bit.

Rushed approach - I have to say that your post has an air of fantasy and delusion about it. Monarch has not been competing with easyJet and Ryanair as number one for more than a decade. If they had done so, they would not be in the mess they are now. They have older aircraft, outdated conditions and have fiddled while Rome burnt around them. Whilst easyJet and Ryanair have built up massive fleets with corresponding massive economies of scale, Monarch have soldiered on believing they could carry on as they always have. Their financial benefactors have at last come to their senses and realised they cannot keep pouring money into a bottomless pit. Nobody wishes the situation on anyone, but these are the consequences of a terrible and unworkable business model that denied the realities of what was going on around them. Talk of the new fleet is equal fantasy, and I just do not see them converting every single Airbus pilot to fly the Boeing 737.

Re BALPA's press release, why should the government be propping up Greybull or does BALPA want them to nationalise Monarch?

Unless Monarch are a lot cheaper, why would anyone buy a flight from them given "further hurdles are still be overcome"

I fear another airline name will disappear at some stage with the PE selling on to easyjet if they can secure more Gatwick slots.

The thing you can guarantee with PE is that they will sell it!

Not wanting to state the blindingly obvious to anybody with a sane mind, but surely the better plan would be to try to raise the locos ts and cs to the ts and cs that the likes of Monarch and the operators who have tried to look out for PEOPLE better in the industry.

To the sort of levels of ts and cs the industry historically have always rightly enjoyed, and to be fair deserved, and to avoid the current situation whereby regression of the decent operators down to the "bargain basement/plastic coat/4sector day/I'm all right jack/cadet heavy recruitment/get your pound of flesh" type operation seems de rigeur and the accepted modus operandi in the UK these days

Monarch have to remain, they have to grow stronger to help regress the powerful motion and the expansion of the loco operators, not just for those involved in life changing situations at Monarch at present but for the good of all for the future.




Just a thought.

I was told the other day what FR crew earn in Europe...

New Captain £39k basic (!!), and for FOs £0k basic, although a seemingly generous £84 an hour (all in). Presumably no pension etc, etc.

And in the recent past at EZY, the flexiscrew deal with cadets paying 10k for rating, to be paid only £1200 a month for the summer season, presumably laid off in winter.

And the airline up north with their summer only contractors, or 50% of 70% pay, all competing head on with MON.

little wonder it's been a struggle in recent years....

I'm not sure of the wisdom of BALPA issuing a press statement about Monarch's troubles. Once it becomes public knowledge bookings could drop as potential customers take up defensive positions and book seats with the opposition. I remember Laker flying across the Atlantic with crippling low load factors as rumours of their demise spread.

Greybull will make a great deal from Monarch's maintenance dept which has made money for a long time now by repackaging & selling on . It's the less lucrative parts of the company that will most likely be left by the wayside .

So what's the latest on redundancies at MON? Will there be compulsory redundancies amongst pilots or are the union trying to negotiate alternatives? How senior an FO is at risk (in terms of years served)? Hope it doesn't come to that....

I understand a handful of MON guys have been offered jobs at BA just this week with more in the pipeline.

Regards

Are you able to take VR if you have found another job already (but quietly)?

Buster the bear
 

Once you have signed the VR and started your redundancy period you can leave at your will, you will get redundancy, but you will lose your notice pay, unless some other agreement is in place, by making you redundant the company is saying we don't need you, but must still given your notice or pay in lieu of notice, PIL & redundancy pay will normally be tax free up to a value of £30k a figure that has been the same for at least 20 years, a proper stealth tax

Agreed, like inheritance tax, but far better than the statuary pittance we got when AE went belly up!

easyJet Capt Italian base : €9000,- after tax
easyJet F/O Italian base : €5500,- after tax

not too bad now is it ?

Easyjet Switzerland FO £5200-£5500 after tax plus a very healthy pension.
Easyjet Switzerland Capt £8500-9500 after tax plus a super pension.

Again, get your facts straight.

Perfectly reasonable money, but does this reflect new joiners/commanders in the UK?

For info:
10 year UK easy capt - 120k (3.3% rise next month). There are 3 fairly lucrative share schemes and a profit share scheme which paid out about 5k last year. I think it's more this year if the results are good enough. FO's are on 45-65 (correct me if this is wrong). This is after 12-18 months on pretty low pay if you join as a cadet. New commanders go onto the same contract as all the other commanders.

SFO in the UK around £4000 after tax, Capt around £5000. Blame the tax man for that.

easy jet needed to change - when people joined back in the day they were taking a gamble - for taking that gamble they were offered £25K golden hellos and 20000 shares - which I know some still have offering them 5 figure dividend payments each year and have a worth of £280K today. Back then they asked people to INVEST their experience and opportunism in the company.

Now the airline is extremely successful and offers a much more stable, guaranteed (as guaranteed as any flying job can be) platform - that means they don't need to give, offer and buy so much. Once a pilot has INVESTED time in the company they will be on the figures above. For sure. In return the pilot is given excellent training, a stable platform to get as worthwhile flying experience as you like (we don't just do RV'd ILSs in an easy Airbus to quell another myth - we can do raw data, man thrust, visuals, circling, foul weather (even harder in an airbus), long days, long blocks, plenty of tech issues, huge, varied workforce, multinational operation etc. etc.). Once they have some experience they get on to experienced pilot's pay. It's a more than fair substitute for flying cessnas, senecas, trilanders or TPs. It's a targeted career structure - one which I've been extremely grateful to have. It's the same MON have offered minus the job security but plus some money.

It's just my opinion.

That said, it's extremely satisfying slam dunking the ill informed's myths.

Thats a fair appraisal of the job. I thought this was the case as you see few moans about the pay at Easy, apart from the way they treat the cadets. The only thing a MON pilot might miss out on is the potential for LH, which I find is less knackering than constant SH. Only a personal opinion, of course. That job security is worth an awful lot these days.

macdo,

Still you are out-of-date and wrong.

The cadets do 12 months of flexicrew and then are on to a fully employed £40K pa salary. Not brilliant, but not a disaster. They do that for a year, then the next grade for 2 years, then SFO from then on.

I don't think it's unreasonable to have a complete newbie on a 12 month trial, do you? Around 1% fail to get the job at the 1 year point, and they tend to be the ones with very odd attitudes.

So much :mad: in this thread. You cannot blame Monarch's failure on poor terms at eJ. The problem at eJ is fatigue. The problem at most airlines is the managers failing in their roles (or making decisions based on short term personal greed).

100%
Suggest you read 100% of my post. I offered no opinion on easy T&Cs except that they seemed quite reasonable in comparison to mine with a legacy airline. The treatment of cadets by easy and other LoCo's is a statement of fact and history, but I largely agree that 40k is a reasonable start point. I also agreed with you that the LoCo SH lifestyle is not one I would find attractive, for the very reason you state.
Please don't shoot from the hip, old chap.

Judging from the feedback of ex EZY guys who joined BA, I don't see much difference in SH lifestyle, except the BA guys spend much more time away from home, twiddle their fingers for an hour or two between sectors and enjoy forced draft and the frustrations of LHR.

I'll stick with LoCo.

I know some MON pilots who would cut a limb off for an EZY seat now - the ones who are likely not to have a job soon - and not just the ones who previously jumped ship from EZY.

macdo,

Not shooting from the hip - just responding to:

which appears to be entirely in the present tense.

then I'll add the "ed" for clarity!;)

There is talk of DECs in the UK at the moment and it had been confirmed that if this is to happen then it will be onto the existing contract. I sincerely hope this is all about taking on some of the MON pilots but I have no idea if this is the intention.

As another big UK carrier reduces its T&Cs dramatically, it makes it all the harder to hold onto current standards across the UK industry.

3.3% payrise coming this week courtesy of Stelios. Although its been alluded to I cannot reconcile UK DEC's when there are over 200 SFO's in the Command Pool patiently waiting. Its the Middle East carriers that suddenly find themselves short of pilots and short of experienced ones to upgrade.

Taking on a dozen or two MON CPs would delay an SFO's promotion by a matter of weeks or months. A small price to pay for offering these UK based pilots an opportunity to stay here no?
We're adding 80 airframes in the next 5 years. There is room!
Disclaimer: I have no idea whether this is the intention.

Whyeyeman
 

A fine sentiment, however, I can't see that being easyJet's intention per se.

Any DEC recruitment would, I suspect, be run on the basis of need, not altruism.

As WWW said, with 200 or so command ready FO's in the easyJet system, what is there to gain necessarily?

Whyeyeman, what is important is having staff who actively WANT to fly for the company not now NEED to fly for them because there bet didn't come in - like many BMI pilots took the punt and look at them now with us - those that didn't got shafted. There was plenty of opportunity for these people to apply a handful of years ago or even in the last round of OPO, NAP, and AMS recruitment. Just because one wants a certain basing doesn't mean you're owed it. Talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it. I feel for these people hugely but if they have to go abroad that's too bad - I've had to for 5 years and plenty of others have too - look at so many of the LGW commanders. Expecting us to pity people when we've had to do it within this company is nonsense - especially if they're taking my command and pay uplift ahead of me when I've invested a lot of time in the company.

WhyByFlier you're right; if the company and unions agree to accept DEC's then I feel it is only fair the same criteria apply to them as to the command upgrades. If easyJet are offering commands at their new bases and they are not being filled from within then any offer to a DEC should be to fill those bases before the UK bases or others of choice.

Chaps, if you havn't made this realisation yet then let me enlighten you. Where you end up in this industry is largely a matter of luck depending on who's recruiting at the time that you are looking for a job. Let's not pretend we all had some kind of superhuman foresight now that it turns out we work for a successful airline. I appreciate that it's easy for me to say this from the LHS but one day you might have a huge mortgage, a family to support, school fees to pay etc etc and next time it might be you! Hard to imagine right now though I grant you.

What so 3 weeks ago they couldn't have applied for the DEC in NAP, OPO and AMS? Why should their 'bad luck' become my 'bad luck'? Sick and tired in this industry of this socialist mindset that other people's problens are everyone's problems. BMI pilots left BMI 9-6 years ago en masse to join Easyjet because they had foresight. It isn't just luck - as I said in another thread, luck is the venn diagram where opportunity and preparation coincide. Chance has a role in everything. Credit yourself with more intelligence - judgement is the tiny little decisions your brain is making without you realising it. I'm desperately sorry for people who may be out of a job and I can't help but feels genuine pangs in my heart and gut for them but there's a well paid job for them out in Qatar, Asia etc. which will even house them and pay for their kids education. Plenty of mil pilots had to do long tours, during or after their careers in Germany and the Middle East. It's the job food chain. Nothing is guaranteed - Easyjet might very well do a Tesco's in 3 years. Get rid of the lefty, over evolved mindset that there's more fat than there is (and thus giving it away) and be more risk averse - look after your FOs who've been here 5-7 years waiting for a command.