As someone who has spent many years at Monarch and faces challenges that some of you have faced I have read comments on this thread that make me smile. We all make choices about which airline we work for and the reasons why. I myself have got guys on this site jobs at Monarch. Do I feel guilty? Do I hell as like....we all make our own choices and in the big scheme of things get a life. We work in a job and industry that when it's going well pays well. If its not quite working then move on and get over it. We are not gods, we do not deserve a job for life, we are pilots. We aren't the directors of airlines earning £600 k a year. We aren't bright enough, we don't have Harvard business degrees and 20 years work experience in the real world. We have been fortunate to end up in the cockpit through a bit of application and intelligence, end off. For the guys that decided to stay at Easy when the other guys went to Monarch good on you. But please don't give it the "I knew what was happening and tried to tell them"..what a load of :mad:. If Easy works for you then great but are you really telling me there isn't a better job out their for you or any of us. I have always said piots have far too much time in the flight deck to talk themselves into believing their own hype. Have a good look at yourselves and have a good life. Don't waste energy bothering about the little gits that we all work with that haven't got a clue, they will learn eventually. I turned on the tv today and watched paras dropping into Arnhem. I watched elderly guys and girls talk about when the !!!! really hit the fan and how they coped. Monday morning I may still have a job, I may not. But as they did, I will dig deep and carry on....

Ps As I'm on a roll Black and Brown I may have said it before but you are an arse my boy!

Pps as I'm typing this the white Rabbit Easy add is on the TV, genius, bloody brilliant. In fact when I go in for my next flight I will take a pocket watch, a pair of bunny ears and sing I'm late I'm late as I skip to the crew room :)

Gota keep laughing guys, it's only a job...their are far more important things in life..good luck everyone

Well said mesh. Stop bitching and let's get this thread back to the positive!

BlackandBrown
I have been on holiday for 4 weeks. I am not sure I understand what you are asking? I haven't contributed to this thread or the one you refer to (as far as I can see). Do you have a question Charley?

Haha,

Great post mesh, especially the first Ps!

Pretty unsavoury load of nonsense being spouted on here now.

This thread is about Monarch, or at least I thought it was. Am I wrong?

Whatever a few lucky "youngsters" may, or may not, have done in their respective resignations from easyJet shouldn't detract from the potential human tragedy that may be about to befall many others at Monarch, who have nothing to do with how a few people may have left a business.

Before it is pointed out; I'm a big dick ladies and gents, but I'm not waving it here.

If Monarch failed, it'd be bad news for all UK pilots in the end.

Good luck.

Well, this was never going to be a positive thread. It's not necessarily about just losing a job; for many the stakes are higher. In this hellish industry that we have helped create for ourselves, losing a job can mean the end of a career.

I wonder what method they are going to select for deciding who loses their job? I'm sure that pretty much everyone is trying to gain employment elsewhere and maybe that will reduce the number that are made redundant. These days you can't just fire on a LIFO basisand many of the new joiners will keep their job, at least for now.

I hope that many of the Captains who have had a lot of good years riding the Monarch gravy train, step aside if financially able. To be honest, with the inflated pay that this misfiring airline was paying them, many should still be fine, despite the awful pension situation.

Well said Mesh. I was/am lucky (still hopefully) to be employed by Monarch via CTC a long while ago.

I could quite easily have ended up at Easy/Jet2 etc and would no doubt have been quite happy there too.

As regards to ex Easyjet pilots that have joined Monarch over the last couple of years. I've personally found all of them very well trained/capable and nice. The only thing they really ever moaned about was the flexicrew situation. They have generally said that Easy was a better organised company, but monarch was a much better company to work for (in their experience).

I have friends who work at Easy and the only thing they really moaned about was the flexicrew situation.

The easyjet pilots for easyjet planes obviously backs up these frustrations.

We all want to be treated, at the very least, that we belong to the organisation that we are working hard for.

more positive news ?
 

Vulture fund in talks to bail out Monarch airline

Greybull bid for ailing charter carrier could save 3,000 jobs — and thousands of holidays
Dominic O’Connell Published: 21 September 2014
Comment (1) Print
Monarch: thousands of jobs at riskMonarch: thousands of jobs at risk
A SECRETIVE investment fund has emerged as the surprise likely saviour of Monarch, the holiday airline that faces a cash crisis. A deal would save thousands of jobs at Monarch — and the vacation plans of thousands of holidaymakers.

Greybull, best known in Britain for its role in the controversial takeover and restructuring of the electricals retailer Comet two years ago, is in talks with Monarch’s owner, Switzerland’s Mantegazza family.

The Mantegazzas, who have already pumped about £115m into the airline in recent years, are understood to be offering a £70m dowry to help clinch the deal.

Other bidders are still circling, including Elliott, the aggressive American hedge fund that recently helped force Argentina into a partial default on its sovereign debt.

Sources close to the talks said Greybull was favourite, but cautioned that it was still possible no agreement would be reached. The airline has a big pension deficit - at least £150m — and talks with pilots on new terms and conditions are at a sensitive stage. Without a deal Monarch would face an uncertain future, with accountants at PwC on standby should it be forced into administration.

The 47-year-old airline is a stalwart of the British holiday scene, carrying 6m passengers a year to destinations in the Mediterranean and beyond. It is based at Luton airport, and with its aircraft maintenance division and Cosmos tour operator arm, has 3,300 employees.

Andrew Swaffield, the chief executive recruited in April from British Airways’ parent company IAG to run the airline, has drawn up a drastic restructuring plan to shed 1,000 jobs, stop charter flights and cut the fleet from 42 to 30 aircraft.

The Civil Aviation Authority, which licenses airlines and tour operators, has kept in close contact with the airline in recent months as it has struggled to find a buyer. The regulator is understood to have compiled a watchlist of holiday operators that would be affected if Monarch ceased flights.

Greybull, one of a clutch of “vulture funds” that have prospered since the financial crisis, has emerged as a powerful force in corporate Britain in recent years. It stayed out of the spotlight, however, until two years ago when it was unmasked as one of the backers of the controversial buyout of Comet. Months later the electricals retailer went bust with the loss of 6,500 jobs.

Recently Greybull made an abortive attempt to buy the Murco oil refinery at Milford Haven.

The firm is run by brothers Marc and Nathaniel Meyohas and longstanding family friend Richard Perlhagen. “We are a family-owned, family-run business with interests everywhere,” Marc Meyohas told The Sunday Times in a rare interview in March.

Greybull, which operates from an office in the West End of London, was set up to invest the wealth of the two families, whose ties go back 40 years. The brothers’ father was a corporate lawyer in France while Perlhagen’s father built up and sold his pharmaceuticals empire in Sweden for tens of millions.

Greybull has put money into several British companies. Those that those that are known about include Metalrax, a Birmingham engineer, Plessey Semiconductors and Arc Specialist Engineering.

Nathaniel Meyohas said in March: “We are looking for unsteady companies. Our investments require either refinancing, growth capital, or are unloved parts of bigger corporates.”

Monarch declined to comment. Greybull could not be reached for comment.

No, it's terrible news for Monarch. Investment firms looking to buy Monarch are doing so to offset losses against tax, strip it down and dissolve it - like they did with Comet. I'm sure it makes me an 'arse' to say so though. It's just advice and reality.

Monarch has always been one of the airlines I have a high regard for. My sympathies to those involved.

I would think Monarch is top heavy with experienced pilots as most seem to have been very happy there and they have historically had a stable workforce. I assume they still have a final salary scheme (for most) so would it not be a wise move for those aged 55+ to take retirement now so cutting their losses by protecting their pension (once in payment it should be guaranteed)? Again assuming the situation has not got so far to halt this option. It would cut the number of pilots facing an uncertain future and protect those older experienced pilots who would find it more difficult to get a job and not likely to want to go to the sandpit or accept the new contracts on offer with other airlines or the reduced terms with Monarch. It would also give time for the pension scheme to be restructured. Fewer captains would face demotion in the cutbacks and some F/O would be offerred places with BA/easy helping to streamline the business further without redundancies.

I was not aware as someone has said that LIFO does not apply, I thought it did.

I do agree with others that 'shoehorning' Monarch pilots into jobs with easy above those really wanting and waiting to join is not fair or desirable. Give the job to the best person irrespective of their situation.

I really hope Monarch survives for the individuals concerned and the UK airline industry as a whole.

It can be a factor in the redundancy matrix but it doesn't have to be the first one in the list.

Most of those over 55 are already taking their pensions and then carrying on working. Believe it or not telling those over a certain age they are redundant would be age discrimination. A matrix is being used but it's basically LIFO.

Greybull could not be reached for comment.

However, a statement from BlackandBrown, a Director in Projects of Super High Intensive Takeovers (DiP!!!!), was quoted as 'looking to buy Monarch are doing so to offset losses against tax, strip it down and dissolve it.'

:ugh::ugh:

Do they want to save £60m? If yes, put it into admin now.

If no, the hand of the pilots is not that weak. Indeed, put in £80m and the pilots will agree to whatever and share the £20m.

Once the vulture funds arrive, all bets are off anyway.

This is addressed to Monarch pilots.

I don't know if the company is looking to offer career breaks but if anyone is looking to make enquiries into life in the ME, specifically Qatar, then I would be happy for anyone to get in touch via PM. I know that as far as the sandpit is concerned QR is probably most peoples last choice, but if on a career break it ain't too bad.

Good luck to all.

HM Revenue & Customs: Making a loss and Corporation Tax

How the wealthy avoid paying tax | Money | theguardian.com

Mergers and acquisitions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Comet backers recoup £54m from retailer - Telegraph

It's in fact been Monarch's purpose for a long time.

Socrates. What do you think a vulture fund is?

But those brought forward tax losses can generally only be used against profits in the same trade, so don't get too carried away with their value.

Quite, thank you Blantoon.

Dowry
 

Am I right in thinking that a dowry is being offered because Monarch is worthless? :uhoh:

The dowry goes to the heart of the negotiations as they could just walk away. The latter is what any vulture fund would do.

My best take is that Monarch probably has less than a 10% chance of lasting as an independent brand, life span 3 months to two years. More likely than not that PWC will be involved before xmas if any external factor such as high oil price spike, Iceland volcano comes into play

The guessing of the future of Monarch whether good or bad is just speculation, nothing more.
Having worked for them for just over nine years, I always thought the airline was a survivor. For those with Monarch of which a few are old friends, I hope the airline survives these troubled times.

In my experience, pilots are the best people in the world to manage a crisis, but when it comes to relationships and choosing jobs they are pretty dire! What we can learn from this crisis is that no airline has a divine right to exist. The bottom line is that money-in must exceed money-out - if over a whole year your airline is not making a profit, however, small, you need to start worrying. If it happens a second time, you need to be very worried. There are always exceptions like Alitalia, who are perpetually baled-out by their even more skint government, but even they have tottered on the brink and kicked out numerous pilots.

PPRuNe does not enjoy a reputation for rational discussion, and many who contribute here write utter tosh. For those of you criticising the likes of Black and Brown, Wee Weasley Welshman and previously Alexander de Meerkat, take a look back at what they wrote and work out if what they were right in the light of subsequent events. I would humbly suggest that the three contributors mentioned have proven to be extremely accurate over a long period of time. You may have been offended at what they say but, love them or hate them, they have been proven right when many others were wrong. Perhaps their contributions are of significantly more value here than they are currently being given credence for.

Thank you Count of Monte Bisto. Without wishing to gloat, I wasn't wrong about BA either was I? Except they won't go bust - their Ts and Cs will end out the same as the rest of us, with lesser frills, more work and literally five times the wait for a command. Whatever floats your boat.

MON are done, make your plans now so you aren't killed in the rush. And the winter is to come......better hope it's not too icy or snowy.

Count of Monty Bisto
 

My feelings about Monarch came very much from seeing how shocking they were with customer service and on time performance at LGW, were further reenforced by stories from pilots who work there, gloating of shortish two sector days, lots of standby and extra money for doing anything beyond what was rostered, lax control of expense claims during ground training, one quote ' we don't bother looking at anything under £1k'

I posted 6+ months ago that they were being squeezed in LGW by Norwegian and in the North by Jet2, they have over relied on a loyal but aged customer base and are moving to a model that brings them into the firing line of Easyjet/Ryanair at a time when according to Travel Mole website today the number of holiday's taken is down and package tours up!!!

They promoted the change to non reclining seats, when the real issue was lack of leg room, finally they must have endless amounts of management time on (not) deciding on a new fleet order since October last year, only to announce a move to Boeing 2 weeks before the family called time on the whole airline.

The change in T&Cs for new joiners, the lack of real opportunities in the UK coupled with seniority mean that for most the answer is to sit tight.

That is what is still happening now with people only too willing to accept large cuts in exchange for no guarantees.

LNIDA, yes OTP at LGW has been shocking because of a certain handling agent that will soon be ditched, and which is not a problem confined to Monarch. Average sector length is significantly longer than e.g. EZ or FR so two sectors are the norm for the moment but this could change.

The only extra money is for working days off and as for "lax expense claims for ground training" this is utter rubbish - pilots get nothing extra for ground duties at home base and normal day/voyage rate if at another base - they don't even claim via the expenses system for ground duties as this is done via the rostering system!

A "loyal but aged" customer base - what so older people's money is somehow worth less on the balance sheet? The older generation appreciate Monarch's customer service as they don't like being treated like cattle.

Monarch started moving to a scheduled model over 10 years ago and have been competing with easy and Ryanair all of that time, very successfully on their core routes.

Non-reclining lightweight seats have extra legroom built-in because of the thickness of the seat itself and are much preferred by passengers as the seat in front does not recline (I believe a recent survey showed that 95% of passengers don't like reclining seats). They also give a much more spacious cabin as on single aisle aircraft passengers can walk past trolleys and the iPad/tablet holders they contain are very popular with passengers accessing the in-flight Wi-Fi or just doing their own thing on their own devices - of course the seats also save considerable weight and thus fuel.

The Boeing deal, which will soon be signed, was significantly better, all things considered, than what Airbus were offering.

FANS, not sure what you mean by the "change of Ts and Cs for new joiners". Following the recently agreed changes with the union, all Monarch pilots will be on the same contract.

I work for neither Monarch , easy or Ryanair but have used all in order to commute around Europe .

I find Monarch to be inferior both with regards to aircraft , OTP & customer service . Thompsons & Thomas Cook outclass them in the holiday sector; easyJet & the like are light years ahead in the low cost sector.


The employees can keep telling us what a great Airline it is but the customers have spoken & 'The Monarch' has had its day .

Rushed approach alas your argument has two fatal flaws.
1. Over the last 10 years you have not been able to compete with the low costs.
2. You do not have a loyal customer base of any generation.
That is why Monarch is in the difficult position it is in. As for new aircraft orders......
I personally would prefer to have more competitors as this will help arrest the ever decreasing T & Cs but Monarch will not be one of them. A great pity I know some pilots with them who deserve better.

Rushed approach
 

Of course aged money is the same value, but they die........eventually

Yes people don't like reclining seats because it infringes their personal space, but if you cram extra seats your back to square one.

The expense money i'm talking about is ground school during training

How many Monarch aircraft have free inflight wifi installed?

There will be no deal signed with Boeing until and if funding is sorted 50/50 of that happening, if it weren't for the reported £70m dowry being offered i think i would game over.

Wish them well but head in sand helps no one

Monarch is still a near £1bn turnover business, so let's not write it off yet.

A Company can turn over as much as you want, but if they don't make a profit, it means nowt!

On the contrary, your point highlights how fragile the deck of cards is at monarch. A billion turn over yet they need an annual injection of over 100 million to survive! Errrrrr..........:ugh:

But it did make a profit.

The auditors signed it off as a going concern.

Its engineering business is interesting.

ATOL are satisfied.

New investors are looking to put funds in.

Yes - it could go bust, but there is value there especially if the pilots will accept the paycut for no upside.

Pension under the new owners?
 

The current owners were putting in close to 750K a month to try and stand still. Will the new owners follow suit?

Renort,

completely false statement, remove the 7 and the 5...

Latest report this afternoon is that the family will not pay any dowry or resolve the pension shortfall, only that they will delivery the business in an agreed state??

quote

However, Greybull Capital’s involvement in refinancing the airline is likely to prove contentious - the investment firm was involved in the collapse of Comet, the electrical chain, two years ago.
Monarch revealed this morning that it is in advanced talks towards a takeover by Greybull which will assume control of the business from Switzerland’s wealthy Mantegazza family, who are exiting. Greybull will inject funds through a convertible loan, which will turn into equity if a turnaround plan is successful.

I wish them well, but the only long term value i see is the engineering business, trying to take on Easyjet/Ryanair is a mugs game when you are a minnow and moving from your own turf into their's, yep its a well known brand but so Comet, certain irony in the Comet name......

If they're exiting and Greybull coming in, it's going to be a very different world.

Sounds like a £1 sale then.

DON'T LIE. It's not big and it's not clever.