That's direct policy of the airlines to flood the industry with Mcpilots.......

I recently heard a very young MON F/O whinging to a mate in the car park crew bus that he'd have to apply to EZY and when he got the job he'd be shafted on an EZY flexi contract. Obviously, his situational awareness (surrounded by EZY crew) and NOTECH skills (zero) will see him fall at the first hurdle := . Good luck in BA, if you make it (which I doubt).

Enzo99 Strange that you think these young F/O will be accepted by BA when a lot of the existing F/O's who applied have not been. Don't see why BA should be charitable just because Monarch are in difficulties; they can pick and choose who they want.

I agree with these last sentiments - why re-employ a pilot who chooses to leave for a 'better' airline only a year ago. If they do get accepted back they will be on the new contracts which will make them worse off then they were before.

To give preference to an ex ezy pilot over any other applicant I would have thought they would need to be exceptional AND have had a very good reason to resign.

A small bunch of whining brats are getting far too much airtime on this thread.

Of all who left from our base in the North for Monarch I only rated two. The rest were self absorbed and useless in my humble opinion.

I have to say there are some really shameful attitudes on display here. People taking pleasure in the downfall of an airline and the livelihoods of cadets/MPL/easyjetleavers.

They're all people, they all have rent/mortgages. Friends, family. A pension to save for. Just because they, for example, left easyJet for Monarch, with or without dignity, doesn't mean they become daemons unworthy of sympathy. There's far too much bitter pleasure being taken in a hindsight strengthened "I told you so" going on here.

Shame on this forum.

The schadenfreude on display is sickening (not just in this thread), covered up with a superficial 'sorry for those losing their jobs' or some such hollow turn of phrase. I suppose I should expect no less from the industry that gave us pay to fly, flexi crew, 'self employed' airline pilots, SSTR etc.

Absolutely shameful humanity on display hidden behind anonymity. The chips are down my friends. Try not to forget that.

At the end of the day the whole company is at risk if an investor isn't found!

Keep some perspective please, most people here have only wished well for those affected - don't let a small number of ignorant contributors detract from the fact that the vast majority of fellow professionals and ppruners would like to see Monarch continuing to fly and offer secure employment for many more years.

Being pragmatic for a moment. It's dog eat dog out there. There are only limited oppurtunities for Airbus type rated pilots in the uk. BA - you've still got to be a BA bod and fit the type they want. Virgin aren't recruiting and Easyjet will pick and choose. Also none of these offer DECs. So for many the future is bleak, for many a future may become brighter in the long term. As for 757, it's Thomson or DHL. The days of chief pilots phoning their mate at xyz airways and asking to take on some pilots has gone. HR has taken over! I wish the best to all at Monarch; I suspect many will leave in the next year if an investor is found. Some have no choice but to stay and sweat it out. What we have to learn is that as pilots we've helped create a lot of our employment issues. P2f, MPL etc.

Tom,

You have to understand what it was like back then, in the big orange world.

We had piles of new pilots arriving, on a really nasty zero-hours contract (in effect). Morale was low, and dissatisfaction was high.

Us oldies, though, did our best for these new pilots. While the company was financially shafting them, we treated them as well as any other new entrant. Possibly more so than usual, given the hardship, and the shared venom at the same target.

There were two groups, though. Those that recognised that they were inexperienced apprentices and they would have to put their head down and work through the difficult times, on the basis that better times were ahead. And those who screamed hate. Hate at the company, hate at the Captains, hate at CTC.

Many of those that hated got jobs at Monarch. And then they gloated and hated - possibly more so once they had a secure offer. They were very difficult to operate with. Some nice guys also got jobs with Monarch too.

In the mean time, we all got together and fixed the issue for these new pilots. Everyone did. BALPA, Captains, First Officers. We pulled as a team, and we ended up with a resolution that all parties are happy with (or equally unhappy, if you are a negotiation pessimist).

Now, we would be delighted to have the "good guys" back. But those haters, those that spat vile at those who were doing their best to help... well, we wish them well, but you have to understand that easyJet are unlikely to welcome them back. It's only a handful, but we remember them well. It's an old adage that you should never burn your bridges in aviation, but it is oh so true.

Good post HundredPercentPlease. Our union members at Norwegian are trying to replicate that same feat i.e. BALPA, SEPLA, NASPA, NPU, Captains and FOs pulling together for a fair and sustainable career path. Make no mistake it won't be a walk in the park but as Norwegian are planning on being a significant player, particularly in LGW, it is vital for the industry in Europe that we get the right result.

Rumours are that our training department are in talks with CTC in relation to cadets. We have all seen what can happen with that and you guys at Easy know it all too well.

The terms and conditions that pilots at Easy fought for and achieved are the benchmark for what the pilot community at Norwegian want.

If we achieve what we are aiming for and those Airbus Neos do arrive on an apron (I'm not sure where but I'm hearing reports a few of them will), then that can only be good news for Monarch pilots that are unfortunate to be let go or find themselves out of work or in an undesirable part of the world.

I genuinely hope things work out in the end for Monarch. It will be a black day in this industry if they don't.

I for one have my fingers crossed.

I wouldn't be too harsh on the ex-EZY cadets, as many were young and some expected a utopian world once flying big jets.

If you had done your best, they would never have been on those contracts.

I wouldn't be too harsh on the ex-EZY cadets, as many were young and some expected a utopian world once flying big jets.


Tosh


1. They knew exactly what the contract entailed. They signed up to it.
2. Most were substandard operator's who struggled to land an aircraft.
3.There was enough advice out there BALPA,friends,these forums and word of mouth to dissuade them to commence training.
4. Most of them were more interested in their phones, social media, crew and their own needs than contributing to the duty.


Most of those who left will not be happy anywhere. They cut off their noses to spite their faces when they left a viable company to join a company which most in the business knew had serious issues.


Good luck to those who have an uncertain future but don't expect sympathy for those who jumped ship.

what about the guys without big jets dreams who have struggled for years to get a job in easy and are now placed in the holding pool probably forever and probably because the union will force easy to hire former monarch...sadness for them...

http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...ew-thread.html

I think you will find that a lot of them were actively sold the product by one of your own on this site.

Wise words from HundredPercentPlease. Some hard lessons about to be learnt here. Maybe easyJet is not now so bad after all - yesterday they just announced a big increase in dividends for all shareholders, and the conversion of options on 27 new jets to be delivered between 2015-2018. One of life's golden rules is that you never burn bridges (that applies to any job anywhere and is not exclusive to aviation). There are a few people who are having to relearn that the hard way.

I think it is true to say that many FOs who left easy to go to Monarch did so thinking they were somehow inflicting retribution on the company who would struggle to replace them. This as I pointed out to many at the time is not the reason to leave. Once they had given in their notice many were a pain to fly with and those of us left behind were frankly relieved to see the back of them. Tragic though it is for these FOs it would be a mistake for them to return. Many did burn their bridges and would not get pass their initial contact with the company. For all it is a harsh and early lesson in the big nasty world of how big decisions should be taken for the right reason. Furthermore, in this small world don't burn your bridges and be nice to your colleagues on your rise through a company because you will see them again on your way down.
Having said the above the ex easyjet pilots now being made redundant from Monarch are only a small minority of those now seeking jobs and I hope easyjet will take the opportunity to take some experienced and well trained pilots offering fair contracts. However I fear they will be more likely to be offered NAP OPO or AMS contracts.
Good luck to all.

There's an old saying: Never kick your First Officers a**se, he might be your next Chief Pilot

And I've seen it happen.....the Chief Pilot bit

The youngsters will be ok , the people we should be looking after are the more senior guys who haven't got time to rebuild their pensions , can't move their families to the middle east & need to pay the mortgage & school fees.

Would those guys at easy put the pressure on their management to soak up experienced crews from Monarch should a buyout be unsuccessful & help the industry return to respecting people's long term commitment as opposed to accelerating the deterioration into a 'job' many of us find less & less palatable .

In my experience at Monarch, the ex easy F/O's have, without exception been well trained, competent and professional. I have not heard complaints from anyone else either.

ZeBedie - no one has ever questioned their competency have they?

Their shortcomings relate to their attitude and lack of life skills/maturity, witnessed by the many posters on here.

Hopefully many will read this thread and reflect.

Grass is always green
The saddest thing is in the old days many pilots came up the ladder from flying school, to night freight on a Piper 31, to turboprop, to Jets and those guys never committed the cardinal sin of slating their previous employer - they were always grateful and the airlines wished them well as they moved on. They flew on days off for nothing apart from the love of the job, never mentioned the fatigue word, you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours.
Now days that doesn't seem to be the case, its low hour Pilot one day, arguing the toss on a roster change the next day and why am i not a Captain the next.
I guess buying their rating gives them the right, but i know who i'd rather be dealing with...........:\

Whilst I am sure that many of the points being raised about ex-easyJet First officers (that is what the are/where, they ceased to be Cadets once employed just as a Captain ceases to be a first officer on promotion) are indeed valid, there is a time and a place to bring these to the fore and this is not it. Only a bitter, gloating or I told you so attitude would lead anyone to post this kind of thought on this thread.

As has been highlighted on numerous occasions, these people are facing losing their livelihoods, many with mortgages to pay and young families to support. I suspect that most of the negative posters were never in a similar position to some of the FO's that left easy for Monarch. Whilst I could never condone the level of unprofessionalism being described, I'm sure most would agree that the terms these guys were working under we're terrible and most had no choice.

A commonly used phrase is that attitude reflects leadership. In my time at easy, I seem to remember a high degree of negativity been prevalent throughout. Was there not a survey that revealed that morale was potentially destructive to the business. I flew with captains who's attitude towards the company bordered on the unprofessional, (anyone remember flap full Fridays?) is it any wonder that some of the guys at the bottom being shafted the most should show a degree of dissent.

I regret that I have been drawn into this debate, however that the thread has been hijacked in such a way as to stick it to guys who left easyJet feeling they were bettering themselves, but now find themselves in a dire situation, is plain wrong and there are experienced people that should know better, who should be ashamed of themselves. Yes some guys may have been immature, arrogant or even unprofessional, but now is neither the time or the place to be saying I told you so.

Let's ditch the thread creep and the sniping and get back to the topic in hand.

Good luck to all

That's lovely but do you think you might be referring to an era that is as outdated as it is irrelevant? Fatigue was very much a problem when I worked for ezy. It is becoming a serious problem at my current airline.

As for working on days off for nothing for the love of flying, please....

Airlines get what they deserve in terms of loyalty and crew morale. Cook up :mad: zero hour contracts and don't offer basics such as sick pay and pension to new starters and they will behave accordingly.

MaxPower2011 - this is not a pity party and it is exactly the right place to discuss these issues. Very poor decisions were made, and in order to prevent the repeat of those it is important to highlight what actually happened. I too feel extremely sorry for the more experienced Monarch guys who are now facing a very uncertain future. Nonetheless, there will be jobs through companies like easyJet and Norwegian Air Services for many of them. In truth they will probably never have the same terms and conditions again, but that is life. I wish them well.

Monarch Difficulties
 

I have just seen a great video clip on Facebook, (likely on you Tube as well), showing 3 Monarch 757s at Skiathos. Very impressive indeed & show just what Monarch has done in the past, is doing at present & will continue to do so in the future. If I was in the chair, I would have this video clip avertising Monarch, on every TV station possible!!!

Max power 2011
You seem to miss the point. Just because you have the cash to buy everything you want does not make you a competent pilot. Many of these guys who left ezy complaining about the company are the reasons why the T&C in the industry have deteriated then they have the audacity to bite the hand that feeds them.

I would suggest they find alternative lines of employment and find out what the real world is like,there characters are not conducive to flying, quite frankly during there latter stages they were another hole in the cheese.

Your last sentence reveals this shift in attitude. If airlines want to keep flight crew at arms length, essentially sub contractors, then the rise of the "Me Inc." attitude is the result. I've come up via a similar route to that which you describe. It has never been valued by an airline. The airlines are reaping what they sow.

I've been taking quiet pride but now people are justifying their positions and still slating easy I have to say 'I told you so', 9th June 2012:

Taken from the thread:

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...-anyone-4.html


Where's poster Bealzebub now? Busy working for the 'other' company with 3 letters?

Sorry for the families and people affected by this company's potential demise. It's my opinion that it'll be gone in 3 years - maximum.

The bigger problem is the change of the industry from one of numerous companies that had half an eye on looking out for its employees (including flight crew) to one where these companies are slowly but surely been devoured in the UK and Europe by the uber efficient money making loco machines.

During the expansion of the locos many companies have gone under, and many opportunities have been missed by the locos to employ those affected by the going out of business of these companies, guys with a good track record, good people skills, good life skills. Strengths, that if certain infos on this very thread are to be believed, are sadly missing in some quarters

Experienced guys either out of work on the scrapheap, and further across the food chain stuck as TP capt, as career progression to the "plumb jet jobs" hardly exists

It is incredibly ironic that those who by the very path they elected to take, and some would argue "jump the queue by chequebook" via certain ftos and loco carriers have affected the industry as a whole for everybody, now have taken the lions share of this thread due in main to the fact that they are now experienced and hence no longer of recruitment interest to the market they helped create. And also taking the thread focus from the problems of the company and the workforce as a whole and turned it into a me me me fest.

Hopefully the decent operators out there extend the olive branch to the innocents caught up in Monarchs current situation, failing that the locos can see past the usual modus operandi of majority of cadet only recruitment and give a break to innocent bystanders, and on relevant and suitable contracts.

Hopefully Monarch survive this loco led domination, Thomas Cook another decent operator had their wings checked a few years ago, but just about survived. Hopefully for the sake of the industry Monarch manage the same

Ecam, that last statement should read:

You pay 120k, play the game, meet the required standard and the job is yours.

Have any ex easy Monarch F/O's actually applied to go back to easy?
I'm not aware of any.

Yes and captains from MON - I promise you. What people say and what they do are two different things.

Are you doing the interviews B&B?

This thread ought to refocus on the issues at Monarch and has got sidetracked into the issue of Monarch enticing dozens of easyJet cadets to leave and join them for a permanent contract and a ten k payrise.

I pleaded with some of the ezy cadets not to make the move and tirelessly presented the direst of warnings. Others I let make their own decisions... Largely because some of them were good guys and some were in need of an attitude adjustment. Son when I had five hundred hours I was still on gliders not in an A320 going into CDG for a major - quit your whining about base allocation and rosters and try learning how to damn well fly, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.

In the end they are still all young and have just a couple of years invested in Monarch. My actual sympathy extends to those who built a career and a life around it and to whom in my eyes were lied to by management and now wake up every morning under a sky of stress.

WWW, "Son when I had five hundred hours I was still on gliders not in an A320 going into CDG for a major - quit your whining about base allocation and rosters and try learning how to damn well fly, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum" I don't think you could have been more patronising if you tried.... I hope that was a joke.

Spot on Enzo999. It is the only industry I know of where experience is a positive disadvantage. BA as the flag carrier should be ashamed of themselves as they are clearly only looking to take CTC novices - otherwise they would not have reduced their hours requirement to 200. Also requiring pilots with 5000 hours to take an "aptitude test" and maths tests is bonkers - unless it is of course used as an excuse to fail experienced pilots not protected by CTC who I am sure would never have given their boys the answers to the papers in advance (sarcasm intended).

I was trying to be as patronising as possible. When faced with unsufferable arrogance its a rational response. You have twigged that I was expresing my internal voice... Yes?