macdo, Three Lions, mudcity - we are probably all still barking up the same tree. I think we all know that the 'glory days' are gone. However, my best guess is that there are way more airline jobs available now than were the case in the past in the UK. Also, many of those are jet jobs and not turboprops. I am not sure I agree with the oft-stated view that this is a 'race to the bottom', but I loved the bit about the 'yellow jersey wearers'! There are certainly pressures on terms and conditions that did not exist in the past, but offsetting that the airline industry is open to many more people now than it has been in the past. No one wants casualties like this, but my best guess is that the overwhelming majority of Monarch outcasts will have jobs somewhere very quickly - many of them being good ones too. The Monarch guys enjoy a reputation for professionalism and that will do them no harm as the vultures circle to pick up pilots. A lot of companies are attracted by the idea of ready-made Airbus pilots just dropping from heaven - I am not sure, however, that the job offers will all be in places that people want to be.

Yeah, you are right, there are now a lot more jet jobs for pilots to have in the UK and globally. The big difference is, when we did TP's as the entry point, generally you got a free type rating and a 3 year bond, which was fair enough, after which a jet job came along and another free rating with a 3 year bond. I'm absolutely sure that the 120k you have to pay upfront to get into the first job isn't a fair swop. I make this observation in the light of the number of FO's you meet who really struggle to make ends meet.

WRT the airlines waiting in the wings to snap up the unfortunates at MON, the deal offered to those FO's that have contacted my outfit has been less than generous. Whilst I'm sure there are jobs for all, most airlines find experienced FO's a touch indigestible when it comes to paying them properly, especially compared to a considerably cheaper cadet.

To be honest, he was harsh, but fair.

Very interesting comments tubby and the highlight from the last few pages. I was involved albeit not with Monarch for 20 odd years at Luton and Monarch was the steady and reliable airline. Always safe and very welcoming.

Britannia moved on, hopefully Monarch can as well?

Just in case you missed when I posted some time ago >


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dItfi9ZFQlc

Yeah because Monarchs fleet still have that new plane smell. Aren't their757s 27 years old? Pot, kettle, black. And hasn't Jet2 grown and also made a profit? A proven and sustainable business model and in just over a decade have achieved ore than monarch has in half a century. Now they can't be all that bad. You're a funny bunch you lot. An evangelical lot when it comes to MON!

Monarch for very many years indeed, had & I would rather think, still has, to a very considerable extent, an exceptionally loyal & highly professional workforce in all departments. In the ideal world, you would like to think this would count for a great deal, unfortunately hard commercial pressures etc these days can so easily dictate otherwise. Those who work for & previously worked for Monarch, can justifiably feel very proud indeed of what they have done over the years. Whether this will count for a great deal with the current difficulties, remains to be seen.

Out of MON fleet the only aircraft currently owned by affiliated structures are A300s. The rest is leased from typical lessors like CIT, GECAS, AerCap, Aircastle etc

WRT Jet2 - perhaps it is not all that rosy there either.

Jet2.com. Good & bad news. Parent Dart Group announces FY2014 profit growth & FY2015 profit warning | CAPA - Centre for Aviation

Sho me an airline where everything is continually great. Things may not be rosy but nobody will be ordering a memorial wreath for Jet2 any time soon, which is more than can be said for Monarch.

Monarch may have a loyal employee base. I'm sure id be loyal too if I was paid above market rates and had a job for life because The Family would always bail MON if the going got tough. Now the going is tough I wonder how loyal the workforce will be? Particularly those who see colleagues on the dole whilst new FO cadets are hired on cheap contracts a la flyBE.

Given this thread is with regard to Monarch and CargoOne's post re the plane ownership (rather than leasing) situation at Monarch I enquire as to the general thought regarding the Greybull potential injection of funds. Given that Greybull were involved in the Comet Electrical and Riley Snooker Halls financial woes I wonder why it would appear they are the only (vulture) fund who have seen a potential in an investment in the Monarch Group?


Is this a long term investment or for short term gain? In the short term the liquidation of MAEL, Cosmos, A300's, prime slots etc would surely realise a significant sum .... more than enough to equate to a reported £75 mil injection??


One hopes they are not in it for asset stripping however given their (Greybull) past record and the general feeling regarding prospects for future growth (admitted by Monarch themselves with regard to current downsizing) the interest of a little known fund should surely be looked at with a degree of trepidation.

They'll split off and wind down the airline so no pension deficit. Sell the prime slots then sell MAEL and the holiday side, then walk away with a tidy profit with ruined lives strewn throughout England. A sad state of affairs.

Ineedthefull90
 

I think the negative forward guidance for FY15 is probably less negative now than at the time they (Dart Group) provided it. The economy is recovering at a faster rate than first thought, that will eventually filter north, fuel price futures for 2015 are way down and for a fuel hungry ageing fleet that is helpful. They have invested heavily in a new sim centre near Bradford which will cut their travel, hotel and duty time costs considerably v doing the same stuff in LGW

They will also gain from Monarch's withdrawal from EMA and reduced pricing pressure at LBA v Monarch.

They continue to manage the seasonality of their bookings by using % contracts, contractors and wet lease of peak summer capacity, i think they have both wide body and narrow body airbuses in over next summer plus additional 757

Tech issues, delays and associated bad press will continue of the back of Jurassic classics.

I don't have a feel for how it will pan out for Monarch, but its going to be hard work morphing from one segment to another but the rise in airline valuations this past couple of weeks must encourage the investors of a chance of a return and their risk exposures seems limited given the assets that they will acquire probably exceed their investment and i agree with others that MAEL will likely be sold

Any news on completion of the deal by Greybull or a further ATOL extension by the CAA? Still showing expiry on 24th October on CAA website.

I suspect from now on nobody will be going to bed until its done, but its not exactly a vanilla transaction!

So can Greybull take over and hand the 'black hole' final salary pension scheme over to the Government?

The "Government" doesn't pay anything to protect DB pensions.

Makes me want to cry! I am so glad the MPL guys are "back on track". Screw the rest of us, 10 years worth of Airline experience and it counts for nothing. Everyone is so concerned with helping CTC cadets everyone else is ignored and left with no choice but to drag their families literally kicking and screaming to live in the ME. My wife cries herself to sleep every night so you will to forgive me feeling a bit bitter about jobs I could have going to a bunch of rich kids who's only concern is to maintain their hobby of airline flying.

And what is even better news is that MPL cadets will soon be recruited direct on to the RHS of wide body aircraft, which basically means Virgin, so I guess I can now scrub that off my list of possible places to work. Virgin used to be something special and an airline to aspire to, but not anymore! This industry is a joke, experience actually counts against you and before some smart arse tries to justify all this by saying airlines like the CTC "product" and the cadets are well trained etc etc, don't kid yourself, it's because they are cheap. If this carries on there will no profession left for anyone.

Apologies, rant over.

I have been battered before on this forum for pointing out the impact of the flood of MPL cadets into the RHS. Enzo999 graphically describes the impact. I know for a fact he has already had 4 years in the sandpit as a result of airline failures. Whilst EZY may offer some hope for some non CTC Monarch guys a good number will be forced to revert to removing sand from their foreskins. 10 years into a career it is incredibly hard to be told you are not as valuable as zero hours cadets. But as I am sure some will say, money talks, and these guys are the cheap option for the airlines.

You speak for yourself ,pal.

I sure as hell am not semi skilled, and the sweat on my brow in the sim is a clear sign. The dedication, effort, coordination, knowledge accumulation , mental agility and responsibility alone dictate that that is not the case.

anyway, I sympathise with the monarch guys positions, I was in the same boat with astraeus exactly three years ago and its a terribly unsettling time , and it always seems to occur before Christmas as well.

Best of luck to all affected.

What :mad: planet are you on? I hope you are not in this profession (you might demean it, not me) because if you are we are well and trully stuffed with your bonkers attitude, doing managements work for them you are :ugh:

Enzo999,

Do not apologise for the rant, totally spot on post!

Oh dear, you just did it John_Smith, you criticized BALPA!!! :E

BALPA - No matter how big of a storm, we keep the powder dry!

Great post Enzo. It is so sad to see what has become of this industry.

Well said Enzo. The Penguins, Ostriches and Bean Counters have extracted their revenge. :ugh:

I am glad Enzo999 posted his rant - its perfectly justified because it reflects the plight of the "experienced pilot" in the UK and W.Europe in general. The problem is, there is more than a grain of truth in what John_Smith has posted too. I think his post reflects more how pilots are viewed and treated by "the industry" rather than his opinion being we are all defacto "semi-skilled workers".

The route cause lies with EZY and RYR who have ruthlessly driven costs out of the airline model at every level to deliver "cheap" flying for the masses. They have seen rapid growth and report consistent profits with their game-changer model and this is enticingly attractive to investors and airline managers (who survive their jobs by keeping investors happy). Make no mistake, if airlines could pay the minimum wage to FO's they would (in many cases they arguably do!); fuel, maintenance, finance and wages are the big 4 in airline costs - two they cant do too much about so they will sure as hell :mad: the other two for all they can.

Sadly I don't see much hope of change anytime soon; until there is a shortage of pilots the laws of economics suggest wages and conditions will remain under pressure for some time. Unfortunately the CAA sees nothing wrong with this structural change (despite losses in experience from UK aviation), neither does BALPA and the industry remains safe enough and efficient enough so the travelling public don't care much either.

The situation at Monarch, should they stay or should they go, will do nothing to help.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

Proper careers are protected by industry regulators and unions/lobby groups who help to hammer out those regulations. Proper careers guarantee those with experience; the most to lose and the least to gain from unemployment, the right to further employability. The recruitment/employment preferences of our airlines has led to a system where one's experience doing the job works directly against one's employability.

This is what you would expect a union to address.

Straight forward job? :ok:

I can assure you it's not a straight forward job, Landing on 1800m runway/64T nothing straight forward about that!

Also two days ago, landing in UK, 30kt X Wind, dark, rain! nothing straight forward about that! Go back to your office JS:ok:

A large part of the skilled vs semi-skilled job argument is to do with how often a pilot has to demonstrate the kind of skill that can bring a fully laden 200 pax jet down safely given a howling crosswind, rain and 45 mins of fuel remaining. Answer of course depends on where you are in the world but for most of us it's not very often.

Arguably, a very typical day in the world of flying a commercial airliner can be completed safely with a very basic but safety concious effort and it often does. We, as pilots are respected for our abilities to get out of the poo when it hits the fan.

Many jobs out there required similar concentration levels but the numbers required to fulfill the role are low. In piloting terms we have huge supply and a not as big demand, so the cheapest bidder wins giving arise to lowly opinions of the job from within.

John_Smith is spot on !

We can big ourselves up , the reality is the company can replace us tomorrow with someone willing to take less for it & subsequently they will be pushed out by the next bloke who wants to walk around with more stripes on his shoulder & willing to do so on a lesser contract.


We can tell ourselves we can do the job better but the reality is the equiptment is so stable & reliable these days , most inexperienced guys can do a pretty good job too .


As others have said , Balpa have let us all down , they've been taking our money for a long time & doing nothing for the long term stability of our industry.


I don't think the GMC would've sat around as those idiots at Balpa have done ! Maybe it's time we all told Balpa to get their finger out or we'll be moving to a Union who is willing to do something about the realities of the industry rather than bang on about crew food ................

Probably why we are seeing more basic airmanship & skill type crashes.
Flying is a skill & experience counts. Unfortunately the industry has forgotten this.

We earn less and get treated with less respect than train/tube drivers!

If you think been a pilot makes you special these days you are deluded! Some rich kid will always pay to get ahead! I would be very keen to become a professional train driver, but the reality is, that actually is a very skilled job and you can't just buy your way in!

"Balpa to get their finger out or we'll be moving to a Union who is willing to do something about the realities of the industry rather than bang on about crew food .."

A union is formed and directed by its members whilst constrained by the laws. Balpa is not to blame, it's the inability of its members to unite that limit much of what it can do, followed by the labour laws of the UK.

This forum is a typical example of the issues BALPA have to get over, the in fighting, one-up-man-ship, the compleate loss of faith in the profession and the can't be bothered attitude of many displayed.

We play ourselfs into the hands of airline management to divide and conquer.

How we perceive ourselves to be and how the industry perceives us to be are distantly apart. There's little point in glorifying the nature the nature of our work, this will achieve little until the regulators, unions act. We are remunerated on how the bean counters have successfully underplayed our role.
MPL, integrated courses. Ask any of the factory churned pilots whether they would feel comfortable flying imc, solo and in s**t weather. The answer speaks words for the level of training and the passengers are yet to realise just how competent or incompetent the guys/girls in the pointy end can be.

What are there in the way of academic entry requirements for air traffic controllers? A couple of A-Levels? Would I therefore be right to say that their job is a menial blue collar one and that they are overpaid? I wouldn't because it's an unbelievably stupid argument.

With the MPL, CTC and low cost airline models. The overall salaries / packages will be less than what they were before and those that were modular are finding it even harder to join an airline working their way up, with the likes of CTC's scheme's and contracts to supply with airlines.

Pilots are now a commodity and doubt things will change until their is a proper shortage or an accident, which the regulators mandate certain experience. Like in America.

Except you are working on the massive assumption that people will remain willing to fork out over £100k when the job doesn't provide a return on investment. At the moment the career still does, barely but it does. Watch that change when it doesn't and it WILL change. That doesn't fit with the world view of the doom-mongers on this site so they will either assert it won't happen or ignore it entirely.