Well this has gone off on a bit of a one-track diversion.

All this Orange rubbish would suggest that Easy is somehow the only option.

Anyhow, best of luck to those under the hammer, particularly those with most of their careers invested in Monarch. Hopefully you can find positions which at least take care of your families needs.

Not ideal, but Airbus captains are sorely needed in China. An unappealing option for most, and a non-starter for some, but they pay very well, and will at least keep you fed and dry for a few years, and provide a good savings buffer to complement your retirement/kids university/alimony. Don't be too proud to rule it out, if you have family depending on you.

Cheers.

WWW mentions the possibility of a requirement for a small number of DEC's due Command course failures.

This does not surprise me. Easyjets command course standard is very high.
A couple of ex Easy FO's have told me that some of their new colleagues in BA would not pass it!
Whilst HR might get duped from time to time the Easy Training Dept will not let any DEC's through who are not up to 'Easy speed'.

Anyway back to Monarch...

Wow, are they on the training standards comittee already these FO's or is it merely unsubstantiated opinion?

:ugh:

(sorry, thread creep)

It is perhaps regrettable that there is so much talk on this thread relating to EZY rather than MON although it is quite understandable.

Both are Luton based airlines with overlapping bases and fleet types. EZY are hiring and MON are shedding in possibly both seats. In recent years MON poached dozens of EZY pilots with the enticement of a permanent contract, a ten thousand pound pay rise and much better terms. The opinion being of many that this was not worth the risk of joining a small company with a big new plan means that there is plenty of interest in recent developments as they settle many a long debate with an answer.

It is of course highly regrettable when an airline enters difficulty and it helps no pilot if as a result pilot pay is reduced. That's a another benchmark lowered for us all.

As I mentioned previously there may be some DEC at EZY because there is little spare training capacity to manufacture command ready SFO's into Captains despite their being no shortage of command ready SFO's *so the RUMOURS go*. The fleet growth plans for the next five years will not all be absorbed by the EU bases so a left seat on British soil in the near future might well be possible and that might be of interest to somebody in MON at the moment.

I imagine such discussion is of more interest and more practical value than merely offering sympathy and encouragement.

The good thing is that there is movement this winter at lots of airlines in lots of places in the world. I was even looking at a contract in China yesterday that was offering £14,000 net a month in China on a narrow body Airbus...

I would rather goto China and eat a juicy Pug, than join the orange or Nigel mob!

PAPI-74...
 

Not been to China then?!?

I had noticed the press gangs roaming the streets looking for ATPL qualified pilots to coerce into service those errant pilots by forcing them into taking the queens shilling!

Dangerous times. :E

I know quite a few of the Monarch flight crew have applied to BA (voluntarily I might add!!! :eek: ) and I wish them the very best. I, along with many of my co-workers, would have liked to see a fast track procedure in place but unfortunately the bean counters are not to be swayed.

Good luck to all and I hope Monarch survives!

(P.S. Got a mate in China, he's desperately looking at getting back to the west, the working environment is... interesting, to say the least.)

Papi is either joking..or seriously deluded.

Feathers are about to fly....:E

Buy the Captains and the airline (and competitor) can keep shrinking.

A nice strategy for EZY.

Hahaha! Rhino, I'm guessing you just read the same email I just read!

Mwahahahaha!! But still can't say I'm keen!

PAPI - behind the times mate, Nigel no more its now Ruppert

Four out of ten; it's Rupert.

....number of P's depends on your level of grandeur.

Either way, if the application is anything to go by, I can't be arsed with the pomposity.

If that's what you honestly believe it to be like on the line then the application process has already been successful. ;)

Gotta love those hoops. :}

RHINO

Wirbelsturm

Hook, line and sinker. Yet possibly true.

Ignoring your own delicious slice of self-parody / irony, we only have to look to one of your esteemed colleague's earlier thoughts;

pompous |ˈpɒmpəs|
adjective; affectedly grand, solemn, or self-important: a pompous ass who pretends he knows everything.

Just got internal mail asking for applications for dec easy, LGW base so that answers that one......

Friend of mine has just asked for an update on his pension status. If he were to 'cash out' he'll lose £95k of his £180k pot. He's really worried that there won't be anything left in 20 years time when it's his turn at the altar.

Perhaps ....

from ratpackgreenslug (bag rats and a sleeping bag I seem to remember!)

Or, to be honest, with 4000+ pilots now there will always be the oddball.
Simple fact is if you don't want to join then don't apply. I haven't worked for this company for my entire life, to be honest I wouldn't have ever wanted to fly airliners for my entire life, for me it's a retirement job! Just too damn dull flying these things.

However, no need to broad brush paint because you don't like the interview process. A process which is designed, run and maintained by the HR department and overseen by a few pilots who only monitor the process anyway until the simulator stage.

The good news for the thread upkeep is that there have been successful applicants from Monarch AFAIK and I wish them every success on the 'Pompous' line. :}

Hopefully there will be more to come. :ok:

The CAA have just granted Monarch an extension to its licence until the 24th of October 2014 by which time it 'hopes' to complete its sale, if not ?????:sad:

Does the CAA seriously think Monarch backed by Greybull is a secure and stable operator?!

I can feel the political weight falling on the CAA to approve to protect 3,000 jobs etc...

Well obviously they do......do you seriously have a problem with that???:ugh:

Or is it you just like to be proved right and to hell with the thousands of jobs. It seems as long as your ego has been fettered, that is all right then...:=

I m just intrigued by a business that has a £billion turnover, which will go bust if its staff don't accept a paycut on the one hand.

Then on the other hand, it's fine to keep trading for atol purposes and everything's rosey.

I don't really appreciate implicit state support to greybull either.

Well the CAA certainly didn't give a toss about saving 2700 jobs when XL had the possibility of being saved.

There's no way they'd back anything that's going to hammer their ATOL repatriation fund if there's a chance of it going to the wall.

That's fair enough, in which case balpa have been led up the garden path

You're naive if you think that Balpa will do anything in the interests of anyone but Balpa.

They make the right noises & the crew councils , generally populated by people not good enough to make it into management , stamp their fists but nothing ever gets done for the individual's affected .


Everybody has their fingers crossed for the crew at Monarch but please do not look solely to Balpa for backup ! I'm sure there are many ex Dan Air , BMI , Air Europe crews & many more who would tell you Balpa are not in your corner !

Presumably based on knowledge of the majority of crew councils or just a cheap shot?

Knowledge & dealing with Balpa over a very long period of time .

My experience backs up Thadius' view completely.

Turnover means jack.

An old saying go's "Turnover is vanity profit is sanity"

so, why are Monarch making so many people redundant and why are BALPA so useless in stopping it? Monarch are a company that have been bankrolled by one family for a generation, and their generosity has led unwise individuals within Monarch to have a higher view of the company's finances than reality has warranted. Monarch have sat with clapped-out old aircraft and a fleet that hardly grows while the T Rex opposition in the form of easyJet and Ryanair have built fleets of more than 200 aircraft each. While this went on, Monarch did.....absolutely nothing. Even little scabby airlines like Jet2 have shown more foresight and have built up a market share in the LCC market. What did Monarch do while this went on? Let me think.....absolutely nothing. In more recent times, the new boys on the block (Vueling and Norwegian) have also appeared and they too have hacked into Monarch's market share. So what did Monarch management do? Let me think....absolutely nothing. Then suddenly, and what a terrible surprise it is to everyone, Monarch have lost market share, are bleeding money and are too small to compete in their own back yard. Not to worry, they have a great plan in place to get rid of what is essentially an all-Airbus fleet and replace it with 737 Max aircraft at vast expense and with no one actually in the company qualified to fly them. They are also now planning to compete with hard-nosed and frighteningly efficient companies like easyJet and Ryanair in their own backyard. Both of these companies have huge fleets with corresponding economies of scale, years of experience, great aggression towards the competition and a demonstrated prowess in their chosen area. Does this have common sense and success written all over it? Answers on a postcard please.

So, given this tale of business buffoonery, who do the pilots blame? Why of course - it is all BALPA's fault. They are to blame for the redundancies that no one saw coming. They are clearly responsible for being left to sort out the heartbreaks of countless pilots and others who are being cast aside because their company is in dire straights. And when the next inevitable consequences of Monarch becoming a low cost company materialises and there are no jobs for anyone, probably BALPA will be to blame again. If BALPA are presented with a scenario that means the loss of 200+ UK pilot jobs, they cannot be blamed when those jobs go. The sooner the pilot world wakes up to the commercial realities of life the better. If your company does not make money, you will very soon not have a job - that is the rule by which nearly every person on the capitalist planet is forced to live by. If you are looking for someone to blame for this, might I suggest that BALPA are not really where the problem lies.

Who are you?^^^

Put a bloody sock in it and get a life.

Count, firstly may I start by saying that I agree with one of your points, that is, to blame BALPA for Monarch's woes is patently wrong. Indeed the current CC have done a great job trying to preserve as many jobs and some of the T&C whilst ensuring, hopefully, Monarch continues to trade.
Where you are way off the mark is your assessment of the business model Monarch operated under. This was never a conventional listed company, it was a private company whose only purpose was to ensure that the group benefited from its activities. For example, operate airplanes for years beyond the 'normal' LCC model, such as the A300 which underwent 20 year checks providing millions for the group , then within a couple of years they are scrapped ! The complicated ownership of the airplanes, which meant that the assets never belonged to the airline and even though the airplanes were very old, high lease rates were still being paid and the maintenance costs were high...but who benefited from the extra engineering required ......
There has been a huge turnover of MD's in the last few years, ask yourself why they left ??
Hopefully for all the great people left at Monarch, I hope the new ownership will result in a more conventional company which can make some money for the new owners and keep lots of people in jobs......but it won't be without its challenges !

Count , as far as I can see , nobody has blamed Balpa for the demise of Monarch , it has just been highlighted that Balpa historically have done exactly what you're saying to many other Airlines in the past !

Well if you didn't see this coming , it's your own fault , however , you have a look at the demands of the Monarch Balpa CC over the past years looking for large increases in pay & conditions with no mention of steps to protect jobs in the event things should take a downturn .


If you are , as it would appear a representative of Balpa , to say 'the sooner the Pilot World wakes up to the commercial realities of life the better' &' if your company does not make money , you will very soon not have a job' , does that not apply to the likes of BA/IAG , Air France & many more .


Maybe instead of taking 1% of the general pilots workforce across the Uk & walking away , Bala could start looking after its members long term , if they had the foresight you request from the Monarch employees , they'd have been negotiating with the Management for a number of years & protecting the livelihoods of these people we all now feel for at Monarch & not just telling them they should have seen it coming.


I now work overseas but was let down by Balpa on two seperates occasions in this very way . Once again , good luck to all but please , all demand more help , protection & guidance for your 1% long term , don't be told you should have seen this coming .


Get the Balpa CC's at all your airlines to do more on those expense paid , trouser bursting lunch dates . Their gluttonous eyes wide at the half promise of a possible Management position in the future , you have all seen them .........

An interesting article 111kab but what it fails to acknowledge is that the airline has been a part of the Mantegazza cash machine and not its own profit centre.
It was never designed to make a proper profit but merely to pay inflated prices for leasing, engineering, insurance and whatever else they could find to launder money back to Lugano.
Throughout my time with the company it has always made the same amount of profit ,a modest sum that kept the Inland Revenue happy and the company below the radar, so that the real money could disappear elsewhere.
In the late 1990s there was a profit share scheme for employees with the possibility of bonuses if profit triggers were reached. It was a scam for the company to pay less tax and of course those targets were never reached.
it will be interesting to see how the company performs when we no longer have any link to the Mantegazzas but my colleagues and I feel sure that there will always be some link to them. I expect the B737s to be delivered to a Mantegazza leasing company in 2018 with profits from the leases paid to them and Greybull.
The article makes some positive statements about costs and revenue growth and this is very encouraging considering that the company is still using 1970s business practices and technologies in its operations.
The family's latest cash vehicle is Avalon Cruises:http://www.avalonwaterways.com/River-Cruise-Ships/

Count, I also concur the fault lies not with BALPA.

However it could also be suggested that the demise of Monarch, is directly linked to their own reduced pace in the "race to the bottom" in which it would appear the two aggressive locos, are yellow jumper wearers.

Aggressive capitalism, and the companies aggressively jostling for position at the front of the pack are ruining the race for all but a few at the very top of the respective trees.

just a guess some can't quite see this as clearly as others. Perhaps due in part, to being too busy due to slavery directed work patterns or belief in company propaganda or the controlled UK brainwashing media.

Hardly BALPAS fault. And, for the record I'm not their biggest fan. It's hardly specific to the airlines either look around smell the coffee.

Its sad to say, but the aviation industry as we knew it in the the years before the mid nineties is has been pretty much destroyed. Glory years for those that remember it, especially the lifestyle and t&c's. Airlines always led precarious lives and often went to the wall, but at least you were well looked after, with some notable exceptions. MON is the one of the last legacies to face up to the realpolitik of aviation in the 21st century, where, air transport has no more cachet than any other means of pushing people or cans of beans from one place to another. The rewards are still there for the pilots in this brave new world, but they will have to work longer and harder to achieve them. If, by the time you are 35, you can achieve 100k a year in a quality loco, that's still around 4 times average wage. It will buy you a decent lifestyle, not as luxurious as the old school BA contract, but good enough. And if you come to this (and many other) industry expecting to be treated as anything other than a number on an accountants spreadsheet, prepare for disappointment. Although I have a lot of time for BALPA, particularly those folk that sacrifice their time to do the CC work, it is becoming clearer by the year that Big Balpa are not giving the support and leadership that we (and our 1%) deserve. Unfortunately, until a viable alternative appears, they are the only game in town. The more of us that pay the 1% and support the union, the more we will benefit from the solidarity that affords.