I would wear the tie pin as well, now that would really scare them sh****ss, that would make Mr French change the way he has run the company for the last 15 years !!!:ugh:

Do not under estimate the strength of your hand at present. Any official talks around strike action will kill the flotation, and therefore your directors £tens of millions are on hold once again.

Then again, there are many longer serving pilots for whom the flotation will be a nice windfall; so already you're divided!

Presumably your reps have seen the business' forecasts that will make up the prospectus and let you know the current proposed pay increases for the next 5 years, which will have also been reviewed by external accountants.

Equally, whilst G-60 and co do a great job of underselling themselves, the flybe flight deck is generally made up of hard-working, clever and sensible guys and not just any fatpl holder - so the real supply isn't that great. In fact, to get what they do for £30k+ a year for people that have invested £50k is bloody great value, even in aviation.

Do you think you would get the tie pin through security?

30K a year ??? Where did you get this (stunning) figure from ???? You're talking wages during online training, right ?

Most Flybe F/O's
 

FYI Most fully qualified Flybe F/O's earn £25k-£32k - about as much as a HGV or bus driver and considerably less than a train driver (£45-£50k starting salary) - oh and less than most of the refuellers who fuel the planes we fly.

If the public knew this, maybe they'd agree we're underpaid considering the level of training and skill required to do the job, not to mention the responsibility and unsocial hours and weekend working required.

Perhaps now people can see why most of us are extrmely annoyed with the 0.3% pay rise over the past 2 years we have been offered...

A 5yr F/O with Flybe would be making around £35k - the pay scales are on the Flybe website for all to see.

Desk-pilot

Well, hammer them with one of those good old strikes, then ! What is it ? Such or such pilot has been promised candies and will not be able to follow up on this one (Oooh, you'll understand, surely...).

I'm getting sick of this population chickening out and finding all reasons not to hit hard. Less pay than bus and tube drivers ? Well, less guts as well (The tube is out tomorrow...). We get what we deserve.

Do you realise where this kind of weakness would have taken us in 1939 ? We'd all be speaking German by now.:rolleyes:

So the Finnair contract has been cancelled/postponed/renegotiated (time will tell), what are the odds management uses this as an excuse not to be able to afford a proper pay rise or improvement of conditions???

you can hear it now " you`re lucky to have jobs, can`t afford anything in order to avaoid redundancies" etc etc!!! again!!!

If you're going to do it, damn well do it ! All this 'bovine scatology' is worthless unless you follow words with actions.:ugh: If you lot can't come up with a constructive, majority and united action plan, then forget it.

If BALAPA won't put forward an action plan, and your PLC is management pilot heavy, a vote of no confidence in your PLC should take place:D

Serenity, What's to stop BALPA arguing Finnair decided to buy Finncom instead, due to worries over the many rumours of industrial action? It looks to me its in the interests of the company to make its employees happy at this moment in its evolution. You never know!

You never know!!!
Balpa may surprise us and do that, but I don't see management changing their ideas and philosophies to give us all a nice pay rise!!
Think they are more likely to say there is no money, delay and find excuses.
I would love to be pleasantly surprised.........

Could be Burpbot but I think Flybe and finncomm are being played off against each other by finnair who are trying to get the cost of connecting regional flights down to a minimum.

coffin corner

I think you over estimate the numbers in the hold pool waiting to start. There is only one pool. Numbers are not large. regs BBB

.

Firstly, when have I ever stated the numbers in the pool?
Secondly, I can assure you there is more than ONE hold pool.

There is the main pool for Mr wannabe "off the street" (with about 15-20 in it)
There is the pool of MPL students
There is the pool of Thomas Cook cadets (coming soon)
There is the pool of Mentored/Part sponsored Cadets from FTE etc.
There is another pool that I really can't be arsed to try and remember about, but it's something to do with sponsored cadets.

The bottom lot on this list are being given preference over the main pool of wannabes - fact. If you are in the main pool then there could be a long wait for a job.

Should the market pick up and all the pools empty then all Flybe has to do is get on the phone and call any number of the 1,000,000 applications they have on file and they'll get starters almost straight away - another fact.

CC

p.s If you want to be a pedant and argue the toss that the "cadets" waiting are not in a "pool" then that is up to you, in the cold light of day, they are awaiting jobs :)

The TCX students go where the gaps are post the main moves as a result of the revelent bid process. There is no hold for them per say, plus they have not yet started in FTE so still to early to predict attrition rates/ expansion etc etc. They will graduate early 2012 ex FTE.

The MPL/PSP/MAPS students from the FTO's are in one pool. The first MPL course is doing its TR with the second to start the TR soon. Both are doing a combined TR groundschool. With courses having been offered to several cadets from this pool the numbers left would be managed in a few TR intakes.

Due to the change over in online application vetting company, the list of contacts were deleted as per data protection guidelines. I am more than aware there is a pile of CV's, however applicants will have to apply online.

The reason I post this is that those who are CPL/IR holders waiting for their 'big break' who read this, if things 'kick-off' in terms of recruitment, it will not be long before the doors re-open. Again Crystal ball at ready, and company mobile change over day sees lack of network signal for said ball at present.

So all gone very quiet, i know there is the odd meeting but little else seems to be happening!

The management seem very good at delaying, however how long until then exodus??? More and more companies seem to be recruiting, BA, Virgin, Jet2, GSS, Cityflyer and thats without the European & middle/far east.
There are now fewer regional companies to feed the growing demand, so i guess a good percentage will come from Flybe.
Some already handed in their notice, there must be plenty in the wings??

Are the management hoping to delay until the exodus or just hoping all the senior guys leave and can be replaced with cheaper cadets??

Buy outs of other companies are rumoured, but will probably mean little for crews in the UK. Are these now the managements focus, the UK crews left to fend for themselves???

This is exactly what they want Serenity

Unfortunately this seems to be the way of thinking of alot of short-termist financial / MBA types, in almost all airlines. It will all come to a horrible end, but probably not for a good few years yet. In the mean time a race to the bottom for T's and C's is well underway.

If only we could sack all the directors that make these sort of decisions and replace them with new graduates on a pay-to-work internship. :E

Flotation
 

So with a much rumoured flotation on the LSE on the cards have these issues been resolved? Can't imagine potential investors being overjoyed at the prospect of a militant workforce. :hmm:

This could be BALPA's opportunity to utilise the press to best advantage.

With management now citing the Data Protection Act in order to subvert the Scheduling Agreement, it's not getting any happier at Flybe.

One could say morale is at an all time low and can't really get any worse.

We are treated like a bunch of bloody school children. :ugh:

It is true to say moral is low and that the goodwill of the workforce that the company has relied on for so long is becoming increasingly depleted. Yesterdays modifications in Aims are a joke and show the contempt in which the company regards us. Talk about turning me cynical.

Anyone else heard the rumours that some ops managers / directors got a 9% increase in pay. My source said it had been confirmed to the Balpa CC but usually hear these things from a couple of places when true.

Coffin Corner!

You have it so wrong!!! WE DO NOT GET TREATED LIKE SCHOOL CHILDREN!!

Schools treat pupils with more respect!

Big Picture:

9% payrise? If you go through the financial results, you'll see that a certain directors pay went up from under £500k to circa £600k. If that is 9%, then I will openly eat the Egg Florentine Sandwich next time one appears in the crew food box.

Me thinks that someone may not be telling the full truth if that was the figure unvieled to the CC...

And equally - I agree - maybe somebody should make a phonecall to one of the national newspapers? A dissenting workforce will not make for a happy floatation...

AD,

I did see the decoded financial results which show the 100K rise for a certain individual and the interest free loans for directors to buy pre-floatation stock. The 9% I understand is for another group of employees, showing the 3% "take it or leave it" is for some and not others. I may be overstepping the mark to say if it for ops then it can't be performance related considering some of the things they have done to me lately.

I think you should eat that egg sandwich anyway as the way things are going dysentery seems like the preferred option.

I totally agree - I wasn't aware of the Flight Ops managers though, but it does add fuel to the fire for us.

It's a ridiculous situation to be in...

Email from BALPA today states that consultations to be made over the next few days, then emails and letters to be sent out with information to be read and then apparently there will be difficult dicissions to be made!

My personnel guess would be here's where we stand with the company, accept he crap deal or go whole heartedly for industrial action!!
I may be wrong, but that's how I read it!!

Bring it on!!

Agreed. It's all words words talk talk fruitless meeting after fruitless meeting, always on the company's terms and delay always to their advantage.

Sick to the back teeth of being told there's a meeting next week or whenever. I want action.

Six-sixty

I think a lot of crew will agree with that statement :D

I certainly think that BALPA asking all to make sure that their contact details are correct, means they expect things to get a lot more serious in the near future.

All this industrial action step happened not so long ago (5 years?) and we went to the vote, so flybe wont be too scared, having been there before, and the result was to not strike. 51% TO 49% the rumour had it.

Should have been a revote. Sadly this was also a reflection of the poor membership that flybe pilots have with their union. Perhaps if you truely want better conditions you should join. I would think that judging by the comments made on here then all the above have thus Im preaching to the converted but maybe pass on this to every FO CAPT that you fly with. In particular the FOs as this position is massively under represented within the union for flybe.
Why? Probably because their pay is so poor they cant afford it. Ironic huh.

At the very least know this, if we strike and you are not in the union then you have no protection and will have to go to work :}

There are also a few pilots that I have spoken to recently that feel with the impending float perhaps this is not the time to strike. Some feel that they want the float to happen now so there may be a NEW direction in management and the payrise will come in the future and subsequently if we strike then the float will be delayed yet again. This for me is a very worrying point of view, although valid and perhaps correct in that it will delay the strike, I feel that it is a little nieve to think that a new owner will WANT to pay us the industry standard where flybe currently have got away with doing that for so so so very very long. This fact in itself will encourage them to buy us especially if they stipulate that the current managemnet i.e Jim would be required to stay in his capacity for an extended period. Also the monies coming from the float will be from a silent owner, much like us as we own 16% of the airline ourselves but are not listened to, and thus this money will be utilised for the expansion as we know.

Of course the rumours are that Jim wants to float, cash in and get on the next horse and cart (Maserati) into the sunset but thats to be seen.

What gets me is that even 5% or 6% is seriously falling short of what we should be aiming for. I want the industry standard for the airline we are becoming and have become. At least 10% for the first year and further talks for the next 5 years so that the pay increases we have toward the industry standard dont break the bank. What Im trying to say is that I would hope that we dont get sold out for the 5% and flybe stipulate, like they always have done, that there will be no negotiations for a further 2 or more years, during which time they know our pay will yet again fall behind.

I think one of the problems especially for FO's not either been part of or leaving BALPA is the fact that the likes of the pay deal and other issues, negotiations have been going on for a long long time with no results. Yes this has a lot to do with the company constantly playing silly games, but I think some people also feel that BALPA are not been forceful enough and keep letting the company get away with it, and as has been mentioned before the constant, "we will be at another meeting next week". Add this to FO's not exactly rolling in the cash they may see paying BALPA each month a waste of money at Flybe and would rather have the extra £ in the bank account.

Perhaps join now to show your support, then if the pay goes up then maybe they will be quids in, if not then perhaps resign to show your disgust that they didnt push it home hard enough? Its only the price of a few night out for a months membership so for just a couple of months???

They already have my support. I was just giving a reason why I think they don't have as much support as a % of total crew, especially FO's, when compared to some other airlines. Remember a lot of FO's have very large flying loans to pay off each month, add in rent, phone, internet and other bills, and when on Year 0 pay as a Q400 FO, there really isn't that much money left. Sorry if I didn't make that clear in my original post. Hopefully more will join.

Truth is
 

Truth is that as a First Officer in his/her first year of BALPA membership you benefit from a discounted membership rate. I recall paying about £12 a month, in the second year you pay about £25 a month. the Flybe salaries are so low that the BALPA subsciption being based on a % of salary makes it cheap to join.

Now if any FO says they can't afford £12 a month I'm afraid I don't believe them. This is a point of principle. All of us moan and complain about being shafted and suffering exploitative terms and conditions - especially wrt rostering. Either join BALPA and supporth them now to get the situation changed or forever accept what Jim and the Executive dish out.

In my mind the situation is quite clear, a strong vote for industrial action will for sure either:

1. Bring management to the table for serious negotiation or
2. Lead to a strike which will eventually lead to serious improvements in pay and conditions.

I'd guarantee either way you'll benefit to the tune of more than £12 a month.

The thing to remember is that the management and owners are greedy. They want to float, get millions in bonuses and run away. Jim alone has 9% of the company and if it floats at £250 million ish which is what the Sunday Times indicates it's worth, he stands to net over £20 million. Quite honestly that is a huge incentive to cut and run and not give a stuff about the employees.

Conversely BALPA is in the best possible position to leverage gains because the one thing that will seriously worry investors and the city is a disgruntled and striking workforce and all the negative press and loss of bookings this will cause. For once the ball might actually be on our foot.

Finally, like everyone I meet on the line I don't particularly want all this aggro. I just want to do my job, feel respected and decently remunerated and be fairly treated. It's a great disappointment to me that management have so far refused to negotiate seriously with BALPA. In light of this I feel there is no alternative but to support BALPA.

Desk-pilot

All so very true. Well said Desk pilot.

However we must remember that it will still be down to a vote from us. We all blame BALPA, and yes they have been weak but as I said in my previous post this all happened only a short time ago and has happened before that time as well.

Its not the first time the 'crews' thought they had the company against the wall and that a massive payrise to industry standard was on the cards or a strike, but for some unknown reason the vote that the crew took went to not strike.

What will happen is we will all get a letter from management grovelling on about how negative it will be and how detrimental it will be to the company and how this will also have a massive negetive effect on our future lives within the company if we strike. They will also suggest that it is they that have been so welcoming to BALPA and it is BALPA that have been obstructive to the meetings. Many many things will be suggestive towards no industrial action and even perhaps mis-directing our less senior pilots toward a nervous vote.

Sadly there are those out there that will not join as they believe they will get the benefit of both worlds. They look like they are not supporting the strike in the eyes of the company because they are not in the union and therefore will be available to work but then if the strike wins and a payrise is forth coming then they benefit too. Sadly, or fortunately, these pilots are the same ones who will leave anyway.

As for JF getting 20 million. Well if anyone deserves any money it is him and us. Not the middle level that have been rewarded.

Its time that the working 16% of the shareholders stood up for our share of the profits.

All very well said. But! I hope this time the Dash guys will look at the whole offer (if there ever is one) and not just their little bit of it. They have the majority vote at Flybe and it is so very easy to divide and conquer when this is the case. Remember last time? How many of those Dash guys who voted yes for their decent pay rise are now on the jet with their not so decent pay rise.

Think about the future and BLOODY WELL STICK TOGETHER, EVERYBODY!

Virga,

Just to correct a misconception you have regarding the ownership of the company - the 16% you attribute to the 'working' shareholders is the total percentage owned by the employees plus JF.

The employee only share is 8.25%, some 178,000 nominal shares. Not quite the power you think you have.

Smart pensions - BALPA kept their 'help' on pensions secret from the non-members. This is another occasion where they would have done better to make their feelings known to the non-members (a substantial number) and got a much higher percentage rejecting the opt-in and hence a stronger position. If there's suppose to be a new cc looks like they've fallen into the secretive ways of the previous mob. :(

You know why? Because the same horses are pulling the carts. Different personnel on board, but the same horses up front.

CC. What are you on about?