I'm with stanstead on this one.
I worked another career for 15 years before becoming a pilot, I've got a house, a family and I'm now starting with BA in a few months. I don't have any training debt, and I'll bet that by the time you reach 40 you will still not be on the property or pension ladder because of the training debt, so your plan to get ahead by a few years, will actually put you back decades.
Interest rates are going to rocket in the next year or two - did anyone factor that into their figures? I'm sure a £100k unsecured debt at 3% is manageable. But what about at 5, 8, 10, 12, 15%? And what about when the new irish government decide you are all employees and tax you accordingly?
I'm not going to blame the woes of the world on ryanair crews, however it does hurt that the rest of us work for airlines that have to compete with a company that cuts its costs by ignoring the rules (little things like employment law, income tax etc).

HA thank you for proving my point stansdead. You know nothing of me or my career and yet you assume to pigeon hole me too. Again you jump to an assumption based on nothing. At no point have I said I work for FR, have 100K debt or do not own a home etc!!! What people chose to do in times of difficulty is their choice and what works for one won't work for another. LIFE!
I think it a little foolish to blame the entire company culture of FR on these cadets. There are many pilots from further afield eager to fill those slots and that is based on the salary on offer compared to what they will get in their own countries. T&C's have deteriorated in this country but that is due to a multitude of things especially supply and demand at the moment.

Back to thread
The article about flights not going due to crew shortages is this widespread now or just becoming an issue? Does anyone know what the actual attrition rate is?

I do know that at my base, which is one of the larger bases, and at two of the other bases that I've been to, new CUs are not even keeping abreast of resignations. I've also been seeing an increase of walk offs, people not serving their notice period. This makes forecasting crewing numbers very difficult There is no incentive to leave on good terms with the no reentry policy.

Will we see aircraft grounded this summer with empty flight decks? Nah. A major problem for the flight deck community in FR is a lack of historical knowledge. Cast your minds back to winter 04/05. Futura, Eirjet and Titan to name but a few were operating flights because of the, ahem, "Boeing Machinist Strikes". There was a lack of crew because the -200 to -800 conversion process hitting the skids due to the legal dispute and clogging up the sim and training department. There were also lots of jobs around and FR were having trouble getting the numbers despite a number of incentives to entice Captains.

In fact, despite this background they were still managing to push down terms and conditions slowly but surely. This is a very determined employer. Who else would be ambitious enough to drive down salaries during a crew shortage!? But they did it. Part of the tool kit is their ability to coerce the IAA into giving licence validations, the only EU CAA to do so to my knowledge, effectively bypassing European licensing requirements/restrictions/burdens delete as appropriate. There was also even a time where they managed to persuade the government for work visas. Despite the posturing in the press there is a tremendous pressure not to be seen to impede one of the few so call success stories of the Irish economy. This opens up a whole new world of possibilities. There is always a pool of pilots somewhere in the world they can tap. Can't speak English? Not really a barrier.

If they have to they can steal guys away from other airlines by offering them a base they want at the expense of a guy who has served his time and has a transfer request in.

They will find a way. If the pilots have to pay for it that's just tough. No one wanted to get involved in a Union. This is the price of inaction. Hoping that this will result in a windfall payrise is delusional.

Someone earlier addressed a member of the management directly on this thread. You can be sure they read these threads. In one of the pay talks a very senior member of the board remarked on something he'd read on PPRuNe.

Stansdead
 

Were Wizz Air involved with various pay to fly schemes?

Do low hour cadets pay for an Airbus type rating with Wizz?

Is a Ryanair type rating 29k?

Telstar: I've found PPRuNe Forums - Professional Pilots Rumour Network in the address history of quite a few computers at EMT. You can be sure they're following along very closely.

Telstar -

Did Eirjet and Futura not go out of business? As for titan they are going to be busy with supplying relief flights for BA if the cabin crew don't get what they want (i am sure there is a thread on this so not going to air my opinions!) Thought they only has a couple of planes as well and with their 75's painted orange all summer think they will lack the planes to help.

Just as a side note - did one of the FR managers not move to sleezy and screw up their pilot requirements? maybe he was a MOL mole!?!?

Despite the management reading all these posts will it make any difference knowing that their work force is unhappy - probably not so a good time to try an leave me thinks.

U737

D105

Yes there are plenty of computers in EMT. Where are management based?
It sure aint EMT. I believe they have computers in DUB and STN too despite much cost cutting. HR are based in STN and Dub.
The people who use the computers in EMT are other line pilots doing re current training or cadets.
And even if it were TRE's or base Cpts, management pilots rarely, save the very few have any influence on the big decisions.

How many new cadets are FR getting each month?
Do these numbers cover what are leaving? or continue to flood them with more and more low hour guys and reduce the number of hours worked by each FO?

Unregistered737,

The point is not about those airlines it's about being able to hire in extra lift if they really become stuck.

Alas, poor Warwick! I knew him well:

Ryanair case crash lands spectacularly in the high court

Glad to hear he's doing such a good job over at Easy. Hopefully now that he's graced aviation with his presence, gained "management skills", he'll bugger off and do something else. I doubt anyone would want him near their airline anymore.

......................

Interesting list , do me a favour, you must add 3 capt I know and also 5 first officers to that list who are also working their notice ... Some reason they don't appear on your "master list"

ryanairpilotSTN

Well done. That's a much more factual post and looking at that list I can vouch for some of those. Maybe we can put an end to all the nonsense now?

As for Warwick, I'm sure he doesn't mind. You can't live by the sword and not expect to take a couple of swipes now and then.

Also interesting to imagine what, in the very near future, FR will look and feel like as a place of employment when this Rapid expansion stops. So many people have been born and raised in it in FR they've never known anything else. No more quick upgrades, base transfers will become even more difficult, the rotating door policy of employment coming to a slow. Interesting times ahead.

Hi Highlow,

That is the correct data for people who have actually resigned. I have flown with pilots in Ryanair who were working their notice three years ago and are still in the crew room in STN!

Please publish the data for anyone else who you know is leaving and has resigned or PM and I will check against the list I was given.

Bit strange, no FR capt in MAD went to EK - I know a FO that did mind!

ryanairpilotSTN - very interesting and apparently well-informed post. I was under the impression that Ryan's business model was to a degree, based on continued expansion thereby enabling money to be made off the trade in due course of each new airframe??? I could be mistaken on this point. Also, with the expansion stopping, then a drastic reduction in opportunities for 'P2F ' wannabees results.........Whilst bad news for the wannabees with dosh, could this not, ultimately prove to be a very good thing for the industry as a whole? This large, constant demand for 'P2F' wannabees from such a major player has surely led to a great downwards pressure on all our Ts and Cs. I take great encouragement from your post, I hope it's not misplaced.

Perm contracts in Euro Bases
 

Just out of interest, If people are saying that pilots in Italy, UK, and Spain are going to be made to go onto permanent contracts, and they will not allow bases to be stacked to the rafters with Brookfield pilots, does that not give the pilot community a huge opportunity to fight back?

Look at it this way, currently if you were employed as a new pilot in Ryanair as a First Officer in the last 4 years, you are Brookfield, as are most of the new Captain upgrades. Lets take a conservative number.
FO = 80%
Cpt = 40%

Now, most of those will be in europe on a 5 year contract. So if they are made by the local government to be full Ryanair employees, and they offer very bad terms and conditions, then all the Brookfield pilots say NO, and what happens?
I would say that even if there are 5 crews per aircraft, with the massive percentage of them being un-operational due to the fact they are contractor, means that there will not be enough crews to cover the Europe based flights.

Just a thought, because I know I would not accept some of the permanent contracts that are being handed out at the moment. I would rather be at home with my family UK and working an office job then sitting in a country I don't want to be in, working for a company I resent, paying out for accommodation in 2 places, doing duty hours I am not getting paid for AND getting paid less!, and wishing I was at home!

Just food for thought, but it seems to me that if Ryanair is made to put all the contractors onto full time contracts and they don't accept it, they will not be able to plug the holes that they leave in the schedule fast enough with full time guys.

FR Pilots targeted by agencies
 

I have heard on the jungle telegraph that things are starting to pick up massively in the industry, and especially contracting.

I know a number of agencies that are now specifically targeting Ryanair pilots in order to get 737 pilots in the far east and China.

Some of the contracts on offer at the moment are, or better then stated here, (and tell me how this compares to your command at FR and BRK).

250 P1
3000TT
US $160,000+ NET
Ranging from "8 weeks on - 4 weeks off" to "6 weeks on 3 weeks off"
80 hours per block (80+ = overtime)
Housing, medical, uniform paid.
Free eco flights home each block off

I hazard a guess that the Brookfield command salary, (I mean estimation of hours that you might or might not work), and most certainly the pitiful Ryanair contract does not compare to that, yet when the command does come along, then you will be working out of the base closest to your home, and end up doing something in the region of 7 on 2 off, (6 on 3 off if you can fly home after an early shift).
Of course, if you break the rules and the law and fly on the day you are operating to get to work on Jumpseat duty travel, and not declare it as FLIGHT duty hours for positioning before operating, then you might get another day at home.

I know where I would be going if I were a captain in Ryanair!

ryanairpilotSTN

Oh dear! "They" were watching closely after all..... I guess "they" weren't too happy about that. That management pole just got even greasier for you! :E

Nothing has changed at ryr, it's goals are still the same, growth and profits, nothing else matters, and it will never will change, you did know that didn't you? Surely before buying the job you knew that?
So now you don't like being based away from home and you're gonna show em by leaving for Emirates and be......er farther away from home!
You see the virus that you helped to spread has eradicated the traditional
industry and their T&C's, that you are now so desperate to join.
Those T&C's were hard fought for over many years, with solid values that the most arrogant of posters on this thread dismiss and mock as old fashioned and out of date. Early Twenties, one type and nothing left to learn..........
The truth is there will never be an exodus big enough, and there will never be a collective will big enough to change anything. As an FO you have a shelf life, either upgrade on ever reducing pay or be gradually side lined. Take a look at the ryr thread in jobs and sponsorhip. 99 pages full of wannabes, all who would gladly tread you face down to scramble into your still warm seat. You know the sort don't you...

The reality is that Airlines are no longer supported by the Tax Payer and have to make a profit for their share holders. You need to look at the big picture and not follow the heard in attacking FR pilots.

If management want to stem the tide.

Keep 5/4, it is on the Ryanair website as a recruitment tool so they know its a valuable style of roster that allows people to commute and have a reasonable life.
5/3 is very difficult to work with re commuting resulting in one day at home before launching off again.
Stop pretending that FR is well paid it aint, if you look at any other decent airline total packages, FR's is one of the worst paid gigs in the short haul jet market not to mention the good contracts on offer in the Mid and far East.

How about as already mentioned a transparent base transfer list.
We work hard, very hard we are very efficient pilots, a cursory glance at any airports CDA and tracking info will reveal that.
We have the lowest level bust rate in the industry. Yes good SOP's but good pilots too. we run a fuel league which is not really a safety tool and not all that fair but it can be assessed and judged that we try hard to do our bit.

I'm not a left wing nut looking for equal treatment with management, they make tough decisions and should, if successful be rewarded.
However we as pilots make tough decisions every day and are at the coal face doing it, not talking about doing it.

For any FR management bods reading consider below.

STG equivalent ₤
All captains €100,000
Line trainers €120,000
TRI €130,000
TRE €150,000

Second officers €40,000
First Officer €55,000
Senior First officer €70,000

Frank Booth

Spot on buddy.

But try telling that to a FR SSTR cadet and they shoot you down in flames, they can not see that they are in part responsible for the conditions they so complain about now. They were all quite happy to be part of the Ryanair jigsaw. MOL and his cronies certainly did a good job in brainwashing them all as instead of them seeing themselves being bent over they see the forking out of $100k in training as the biggest bargain of their snotty nosed lives, without a care to what they have done to the industry as a whole in T&C's.

Too right FR pilot's get a bashing as they have pissed too many people off. AS Frank Booth rightly says, a lot of GOOD men worked hard for many years to get to where they were only for FR cadets to come along and unravel all the good work they achieved. Now they all want to leave and get the rewards of their forefathers. What a bunch of hypocrites.

Did someone post a list of people leaving that I didn't see would be very interested in having a look at that see if I can maybe add to it?

FB and MOLG.....yawn!

The problem is not all these cadets coming in it's the fact that the people that are leaving are the ones the MOL is relying on to fill the LHS over the coming months. New cadets take 3/4 yrs before they can do that job I'm not worried about the newbies. I heard MOL was very angry to hear that all the FO's were leaving after what he had done for them :ok:.....why do you think he told the papers that he thinks an FO's job can be done by cabin crew. I think that was his way of saying :mad: you back.

See what I mean, totally oblivious and total denial :ugh:

Why arn't you ever on the CTC thread where there were cadets declaring themselves bankrupt. They were going into Easyjet working for a fraction of the money that the new cadets at FR are on.

Tis all a bit anti FR with you.

Ryanair Exodus - whats the plan..........

The plan is for FOs, CPs, Engineers, Cabin Crew, to move on to a """better""" airline ...if they can...and if it suits them... and if they can make it work for themselves......

For God sakes, its about :mad: time that people moved on from the little box or bubble (call it what you want) that ryanair has created and the endless .............. endlesss ......... fight / debate / debacle about SSTRs; cadets; PTF; that has continued for many long years and still continues here on PPRUNE today, and frankly has not changed the intentions of many guys just out of flight school searching for a job who are willing to pay for a job, or the beliefs and attitudes of the lads/ladies who are far longer in this career....

We're all in the same boat so why not help eachother get out of the situations rather than persistant reminding of how people feel others' decisions have been!?

There are jobs out there.. Think about the rest of the world with bigger eyes and a more open mind.

Here's a start....

Pilots - work with us - flydubai

ppjn.com

pilotcareercentre.com

Flydubai...

if i had to fly a low cost operations , 4 sector day on a 737NG, i would rather do that in Europe and not flying nights DUBAI to indian subcontinent to feed Emirates, while living in the sandpit and home everynight, away from home.

nope.

Keep the thread on track....don't feed the trolls :=

The fact that this thread in 6 months has had over 340 replies and 90,000 views it's says a lot about how many people are wanting to leave - that works out at over 480 views a day.....much like ryanairs fuel figures the facts don't lie!

Much like the fact that as an airline FR have been the butt of countless jokes, emails, videos, songs, customer complaints, staff complaints etc (probably more than any other airline since Dan Air) and you wonder why the pilots for such an airline take such a bad rep?

Hedged or not?

:D

Dear Damianik,

You must be badly informed about the Flydubai rostering...:confused:

If it is true that there are some 4 sectors days or nights ( with 45 to 60 minutes turnaround ) , it is also true that you will get it in average once or maybe ( if unlucky ) twice a month.:ok:

By the way none of them are to the Indian subcontinent but to Kuwait , Muscat , Doha and Bahrain... so far from what you were saying.

Most of the other flights are 2 sectors of minimum 2,5 to 4,5 hours each with free food and drinks and you will not get 6 sectors day in bad weather with 25 minutes turnaround like in some nice company in Europe.;)

So before talking about another company try to get the right information and by the way you don't have to join us , you are free to stay where you are.:\

Best regards,

Very interesting that the list has gone! From what I've heard seemed dead on when I read it. I have to agree I think they'll have it covered, but not comfortably! Probably why we haven't received a 'reality check' memo this year? Currently a lot of my mates are doing a lot of stbys, so I suppose that indicates surplus, but how far...no idea.

As far as career goes, I had a choice of going to FlyBe and going onto a prop and being bonded for 3 yrs or putting money upfront and getting Jet hours. In terms of options now available I would make the same choice all over again.

I like so many things here, it's a shame the negative things will never be turned over. Could be a really great place to work. Shame.

There are people leaving though, just not enough to worry them, in my opinion.

There seems to be a sense of thought that everything is hopeless and that we will always be under the thumb at Ryanair and there will never be a union.
I have to disagree, there is people there willing to do some work and change the way we are treated.
In response to a post addressed at any management reading this website to change our conditions, I have not seen such a futile response before.The idea that management would listen to that is ridiculous.

Just to remind you management are there to provide profit for the company at the expense of our rivals and of course its workers, its the nature of the beast,If they don't get there projected profits for the company they don't get there personel bonuses.

So like the easy jet pilots learned, the only way stop the sinking day in day of your conditions is to start the process for unionsation. The process for recognition will come again and since it has not succeded ask yourself what has changed,nothing, still the same agressive business model attacking employees conditions among other, so ask yourself what have we got to loose from recognition.

Absolutely nothing and everything to gain.:ok:

Widered: Maybe I misunderstood your post, but you seem to be arguing with yourself. Nothing has changed since recognition was last tried, but there is nothing to lose by trying again?
Things have certainly changed. The "if you don't like it :mad: off" attitude was a luxury provided by the constant supply of pilots when airlines were going bust every few weeks. That is not happening at the moment.
There will be over 1000 good jobs to be had out east/ middle east over the next few years for those that want that life. Any airline who wishes to employ good people in Europe, rather than scraping the barrel for misfits, will have to offer reasonable T&C's. Nobody expects the return of the gentlemans' flying club era but those days were gone by the 90's when I was doing my SSTR. And the same arguments were raging even then about the unfairness of having to "buy" a job.
Incidentally I handed over my hard earned wonga for thier, admittedly excellent training to a little outfit called British Midland. The company formerly known as BMI, which is the company formerly known as British Midland (!). Not really a loco...
A change gonna come.

The topic is, realistically, are FR (or anyone else) for that matter losing huge amounts of pilots.

I say no they're not. Too many people willing to pay.....to fly:ugh: or whatever we call it.

Fair point. I would tend to agree with you. Imagine that.

Yeah. Weird...

Hopefully, one day the regulations may change. But I doubt it.

It would be interesting to analyse, say, FR's accounts to see just how much (if any) financial gain they book from such courses.

@ stansdead rather an unusual post you make about financial gain?!?!:confused:

put it this way 250 new pilots this year and last year!

500 x 27,500= 13,750,000 euros!! or practically 7 million a year!

Factor in at this stage i guess they own most of the simulators and the instructors are 99% of their own so costs are minimal. Some of the simulators are not very new so I am sure they have paid for themselves already(a few times :8).

I think this should be edited to read

"paid for by Brookfield pilots and the deduction of €4.5 per hour" :}