USSR??

Never heard of the minimum wages for factory workers, minimum wages for ship crew and officers, minimum wages for doctors, minimum wages for lawyers, minimum wages for bank clerks? Those are called national or category contracts, or agreements, and are valid nowdays, the great free market era, to regulate the market.

The pilot category is one of the many, unfortunate catergories without such a baseline agreement, so virtually a pilot can work for free, without anything being illegal or immoral.

D

bonernow
 

And your idea for a global or continental rate of pay would fail too for the same reasons, have you ever heard of free trade?

There is no such thing as free trade. Every trade is governed and regulated, every exchange of money or goods has minimums and maximum, even the stock exchange gets governed if it hits a certain % of + or - .
What you say it is the classic example of a now old belief: the contrary of free trade is the dark ages.
The contrary, the dark ages are now, with people having to scream "i work for less" until they can actually get the job, even if that will make them not able to pay the bills of services and buy the food from the same country where their job is considered worthless.

Governing the free trade is the only way to be a trade in a democratic and peaceful world, the rest is caos. The only way to stop the cyclic crisis from happening is to have an index value for the work of people, based on which the market can adjust up or down,with a degree of freedom depending on current season, but not wildly. We cannot have a 737 captain flying from A to B getting half of the same 737 guy taking off 5 min later to the same destination, just because so the first airline can make a bigger profit out of him.

Fuel costs are the same all over europe plus or minus, and the rest of the expenses for airlines are quite well regulated, taxes, maintenance, handling.
Only workforce costs are going wildly up and down, because the governments never did anything to stop the FREE TRADE of humans!

back to the 1700s

D

Interesting theory Damianik,

First you make a capitalistic deal with the devil selling your soul to the highest bidder in return for a shiny jet and a quicky upgrade. Then, when this lo-cost hell turns out to be a little bit hotter than anticipated, you want communism to come to the rescue...

Hahahahaha!

Have fun in DXB (located in that religious powder keg called the Middle East!) preaching your new found love for the teachings of a certain Karl Marx, and in doing so, remember what good ol' Karl had to say about "religion being the opiate for the masses!" :ok: ;)

@ RAT 5, spot on! :ok:

@ Vexed: You see, that's the whole problem. You hope that others will leave so that somebody else again (in this case management) will magically improve T&C's without you lifting a finger. Well....that ain't gonna happen dude! You don't magically "get" anything in this world, you'll have to grab the bull by the horns yourself!

Maverick,
3 ways: fight, fight, and fight.
I'm with you guys, not against.

bonernow,

The opportunity will come again, and Ryanair pilots will have to be ready when it comes.
"If the pilots would actually fight for themselves". That's right, nobody is going to fight for them. Not even many of Ryanair pilots will. So, there is no other way but fight, fight, and fight.
If your are planning on staying at Ryanair until you retire and not taking all this crap then you'll have to fight to fix the place.
How I'll do it:
Form an in-house union so you can deal with the problem of all the different bases. Affiliate that union to all the national unions, BALPA, SEPLA, etc.
Seek for professional advice.
Convince management that having a happy workforce is for the benefit of everybody; the company and the workforce. A happy workforce is more productive than an unhappy one.
And be ready to strike if you need to. Airplanes don't fly without pilots, and airlines don't make money with the airplanes on the ground.
The company has more to lose than the pilots, it is making a LOT of money
and management would not want a strike and lose money. The pilots can always go somewhere else.

@Doug the head i think you hit the nail on the head and its great to see people finally singing from the same hym sheet.

If we take the Allied pilots Association for a quick example they have come threw some just adverse situations as we do in Ryanair with American Airlines.
In a deeply anti union country they have won better terms and conditions.But they did it threw very good organisation and teamwork working togetheir.They realised that every pilot needs to do something not just join a union but work towards achieving its goals,and be prepared to strike if neccesary.

As a reluctant contracter im aware that i have just as much rights as an employee under irish law.

The reality is the management will continue to squeese and squeese the pilots for maximum work rate and minimal pay back until we stand up to them and say enough is enough but it takes every one of YOU...

For me almost every pilot agrees that we need to stand up to them..But some will always fall victim to the Ryanair propaganda and im sure it wont be long before we hear it here.

Doug
 

@ Doug: What the hell are you talking about?
i think u mistaken me for someone else, i was always thinking this way since i started my career 12 years ago in what was a Legacy Carrier, still a FO because i left a low cost when disgusted, and now on the way to another Legacy, so i think u really got all wrong about who i am.

Anyways, if you really like the free market you are free to give up and accept its misery.

If on the way to another legacy, why apply for a contract job flying MD-11's ex Helsinki? just curious...

Cause the Legacy is Turkish Airlines.

(Pilot Jobs Network - for students of pilot schools and experienced airline pilots calls Turkish Airlines a Legacy, before you comment)

D

I have absolutely no problem reading about how you are all going to apply pressure and Marxist policies etc etc to solve the problem of management versus pilots as you perceive it.

With 46 years of experience in this business I have to tell you that I have heard it all before.

What I do have a problem with is the wonderful title of this thread and the word "exodus" in particular.

Perhaps some of you experts out there (including, and especially the starter of the thread) could give us your definition of the word "exodus".

My concise Oxford dictionary gives me:

"Departure, going forth (esp. of body of emigrants); departure of Israelites from Egypt;"

Now, the funny thing is that every single company that I have ever worked for (apart from Mrs Windsor and Fred Laker) went through what the promising hysterics among you called an "exodus" - sometimes on an annual basis. Not one of those companies actually suffered such an "exodus" such that the management actually gave a !!!!!.

Trying to explain to them that losing 5% of a highly trained workforce and that each pilot had cost £20 - £30,000 to train always fell upon deaf ears. No one in management gave a toss about such figures. In terms of operating costs, such a loss was considered to be insignificant.

Nowadays, when the company concerned doesn't even have to pay for the training required for a type-rating and, indeed, might even make a small profit from this process, the loss of even 10% of the work force per annum would not even begin to concern them.

I have even been heavily involved in the process of getting the management to treat the pilots more decently so as to "retain the workforce" and that failed miserably because the dis-satisfied pilots were going to go off anyway to pastures green.

Anyway, keep beating your gums and coming up with the ultimate solution to all of our problems.

Those of us who have been around for the best part of half a century will be fascinated to see how far you get.

Maybe we should ask the Air France guys how they managed to keep their T and C and ask ourself and the one around for 50 years how we managed to get to this point.

I remember my father speaking of a general contract for pilots in the 80s, and it all still makes sense, and there is nothing so USSR in it. Who says it is, it is probably one around for a long time and now enjoying the fruit of being needed at short notice for this or that contract, for those silly startup operations in dunnonda or whatever.
Lets try to analyze the industry on a longer term prosperity fashion.

I only simply say : lawyers, bankers and factory workers have a general contract with minimum wages because part of a category, so since we also have a common license and common skills we sell, we should all get the same basic minimum wage, that grows with experience on a recognized level such as Hours, Training Roles, Managements Roles.

Easy to discard it just cause it's hard to achieve.

D

I remember the days when I worked for a small fresh charter airline. It was the baby of the boss and the jewel in his eye. The Financial Director was as anti-union as every one else in management. He took great delight in devising extreme policies to discourage pilots from becoming members of the national union. Penalties: sound familiar. He said the company could not afford it. T's & C's were the bottom of the national pile. We tried to form an internal committee to negotiate with him. Resisted. We said it would be a pilots' association. No, No, No. Would not discuss it. I asked him about his membership of the accountants' & fiance directors' association. It was there is discuss general standards in the industry, nationaly. A cartel of sorts that fixed hourly rates and conditions etc. He would not respond to his hypocracy. The company went bust 3 years later after a salary cut at the coal face but sweet fruits shared each year amongst management (bonuses). Not a union insight. It went bust a further 3 times before being rescued by a larger patent, and still enjoys the bottom of the pile T's & C's despite being a member of the union. Strength of argument stood for nix. Moral argument stood for nix. Hypocracy won the day and weak willed employees got screwed, 'helping the company'. That was 20 years ago. No doubt Eastern guys can tell simliar stories. Easy guys perhaps also. One things for sure, airline managers are not silver hearted charities. There is a college in the sky that produces these types. They are in every airline. It churns them out by the dozens and they always survive, even after failure, and end up doing it all over again. The good guys you never hear of. Are there any out there? They operate directly opposite to all accepted modern industrial relations philosophies. I often asked why and never received an answer. They wouldn't last a wink outside a non-vocational industry. Why? Ask yourselves and weep.

Rat you should write a book and it should be mandatory reading for the ATPL!

Hi Damianik,

Sorry for having blown some of your statements a bit out of proportion. I was merely having a bit of fun with the pro-communism angle. ;)

In general I mostly agree with the idea of your posts, however I do think that in the end it's the pilots that will have to negotiate a better deal, instead of depending on government agencies (i.e. communism/socialism) to set up minimum wages etc.

Let the market decide the wages. One of the main reasons for the decay in T&C's IMHO is the continuous increase in the supply of desperate, wet behind the ears, frozen ATPL pilots.

It's a clever ploy from banks, airlines and flying schools to completely distort the demand/supply side of pilots by selling naive 18 years olds the dream of becoming an airline pilot. It's these poor youngsters (and their parents who mortgage the house to back up the loan!) that bear most of the risks. The banks (interest) the airlines (selling type ratings, lowering T&C's) and flying schools (customers) are the ones that are profiting the most.

Forget the general media, the regulators or politicians! It's here on PPRuNe (and similar international forums) that we have to make aspiring pilots aware of the enormous financial risks involved and the bleak outlook on recovering the huge investments necessary to become a pilot. I certainly discourage anyone I speak to who wants to become a pilot from mortgaging their (and their parent's) savings in chase of a Fata Morgana.

On topic, I wish all the Ryanair pilots the best in their quest for a better life, but I seriously doubt that fleeing to the Middle East will change things in the long run.

Agree with your post now, Doug,
but i still think u mistaken me for someone else :-)

Anyways , in most of the cases it is impossible to leave the negotiation of such and important thing like minimum wages,or maximum working hours, minimum rest etc to "pilots". The governments and also the authorities need to be involved, or we will always face at least 10% of the pilots that will go the "extra mile" (to the bottom) and lower the T&C or even fly that little more, and go around that little less....see where i am going with this? when the management can say what they want to us, they couldnt fight the law that will be valid for all of us as the Class 1 medical, the ATPL Theory, and all that we have in common with each other. And if anyone of you think that this will create a problem for struggling airlines to cope, i answer let them die and lets see how many pilots a group of solid, profit making airlines can hire, i bet the same number of pilots that now are struggling to make a living while flying a single 737 of an airline fleet of 1...what we need are more pilots and less directors of this, director of that...less airlines, more planes, better rules, more respect, less cutting corners, more barriers to enter the market both for pilots and airlines! half of the 18 years old guys wouldnt pass an airline selection for a cadetship nowdays, let them face with the harsh truth!

It's an interesting comment on our priorities and ethics when a group of people can band together to have a winge and a moan about spilled coffee/ late trains or whatever, lying down and banging their fists on the ground howling "It's just not fair!" like a 4 year old.
This is called a Class Action.
Another group of people can band together to try to persuade the mill owner to agree to better T&Cs.
This is called communism.

Vexed,

You're right it is not that simple. It is very hard and complicated, indeed.
And your biggest obstacle would be your fellow pilots.
No, I'm not a Ryanair employee or ever was. I am retired and it sadens me
a lot seeing this profession going down the tubes, it really does.

Is there a way of knowing how many are moving on? I know certainly of 6. Maybe its a case of come the summer schedule looking at the departure board and seeing 'cancelled' next to your flight to the summer sun? Maybe MOL couldn't give a **** if there isn't enough bums to put on the front two seats of his 737s? Could it be that the big pot of cash will be wasted on wet leasing (did it before with Futura etc) rather than investing it in his crew? Would it ever get that extreme or will we all be on a 6/1/6/2 come the summer?

Hey Kilo,

Think the exodus is quite substantial, but that just me extrapolating, were a small base and I know of 3 going for sure and many talking about it and heading for interview. Also know of a few in STN leaving, and I only know a few in STN !

As you say, its going to be an interesting summer, or maybe they have some ace up their sleeve? Speaking of ACE, rumor has it they are having trouble crewing the canaries.

Heres to interesting times ahead, hopefully for a change we will be in the bargaining chair....

Goose

From what I've gathered there are plenty leaving. I know at least 10, and quite a few Capts. Not all to the desert though.

I'm lining up a few exits, will do my command hopefully next month do 500 and then go start a 'real' career.

Just out of interest anyone actually know if any Ryanair guys were offered jobs at BA? I know of about 20 gone, all failed! Myself included. I know it sounds like I'm a soreloser, but couldn't help feel unwelcome the whole day I was there, I hope the Ryanair brush hasn't tarred a stereotype of unable pilots as I couldn't disagree more. Be happy to hear that someone actually did get in!

Slightly off topic;

are all Canaries Cat B restricted? i.e are they not available to new upgrades?

All this talk of an exodus doesn't surprise me. I've never met a pilot at Ryanair who has a good word to say about the management. However, it would surprise me if many people actually left or that any departures caused any disruption.

But I wouldn't be sad if I were forced to endure a busy Spring and Summer seeing as the past year has been pretty dire in terms of hours. Certainly no danger of hitting the 900 hour mark! 800 would be nice...:ooh:

As an aside, I've also spoken with so many long term Ryanair Captains who are disgusted at the way the newer generation are treated. Not that there's much they can do about it.

2 new upgrades From my current base are off to the canaries.
They are now currently based else where since the canaries are not open, cannot remember if its restricted, not flown in there in a very long time! If it is they will just be stuck else where for 4-6 weeks why they do 100hrs, just a pain having to move twice, or commute depends on what you want really.

I know of 2 Ryanair pilots waiting for a simulator, and one other who has a start date in May, when I went I had a nice day, everyone was very friendly, got a good vibe from the place, just a shame I messed something up some where along the line.

At my base over the past few months since November 6 pilots have left, and a fair few have interviews lined up, or in some form of interview process, both captains and first officers!

Good luck to all

About 70-80 confirmed resignations in the last 6 months. Or about 3%, the expected attrition rate. I don't think too much sleep is being lost.
Those of you thinking that this rate of attrition will lead to better terms and conditions dream on. We need 2-300 hundred pilots leaving and not being replaced to make an impact. I cant see this happening. All that happens is "willing" pilots agree to work their days off. I can understand FR contract guys doinig it but why in the world would a brookfield "contractor" give up their day off for nothing in return? You dont get any extra money and generally your hours are evened out so you dont get extra hours. It gets FR out of a massive hole and covers up the problems we have.
At the end of the day there are too many FR pilots. We are the ones that have to sort this out for ourselves.
One question to consider.
Ryanair pilots went down the non union route, easyjet pilots went down the union route. Who has the better terms and conditions?
Last time this came up Ryanair countered by saying it would close a UK base and freeze all UK bases. We backed down. What happened?
BOH closed anyway for the winter, pilots sent overseas mostly, most paying their morgages in BOH and paying rent in their new base commuting home.
Bases are effectively frozen, very little movement in or out, and if there is movement its not going to be you, its going to be the new guy.
No Commands. Why would you do command for more or less the same money? If you have a house in the UK and have to rent abroad you will actually be down money.And an uncommutable 5/3 into the bargain.
What have we got to lose?

I never answer my phone if it's a private or Irish number calling during my OFF days or while I'm on rest after duty.

Every little bit helps.

beernice - thank you for someone being sensible!

I have no idea why anyone does them any favours. Its not like you get anything in return. I know guys who have been there over a decade and they still have to fight to get the annual leave they want. And then a few weeks before hand being told nope sorry REQUEST DENIED. Thats unless you have a 'management role' which entitles you to a fat bonus if WE save fuel (im not even going to go there with that joke!) and a very part time working schedule.

the times today ran an article about how many aircraft orders had been taken this year. fingers crossed that they are right and we are looking at growth in this industry then some of the pilots from bust airlines will stop feeding the abomination that is ryanair, all it is doing is creating this self perpetuating cycle of lower tnc's

(no offence to the guys who have come to FR from some of these airlines - i am well aware of how tough things can be when you get made redundant)

anyway in the words of PB 'if you don't like it :mad: OFF' so thats what i am planning on doing and I hope some of you other guys and gals will do the same and above all else stop helping them out!

Emirates
 

Guys n Gals,

Here are the dates & times of the forthcoming Emirates Info sessions.
I'll be attending one and I hope to see lots of RYR pilots there :ok:.


24th January 2011 - Edinburgh
Apex City Hotel
Time: 10 AM

25th January 2011 - Dublin
Radisson Blu Hotel
Time: 10 AM

26th January 2011 - Belfast
Radisson Blu Hotel
Time: 10 AM

I agree with the earlier post. Rostering are calling much more frequently now...to work off days:=. Let's all not answer our phones and see what happens:oh:

All Ryanair destinations. Wouldn't be surprised if PB turned up at at least one of those asking some hostile questions to RYR crew there.

Did it before at Stansted info sessions, will do it again.

Unregisterd737 and d105
You are right.I think it has got to the stage in Ryanair that everyone agrees we need a Union.
people are now starting to realise Ryanair has a policy of attacking its workforce to keep us subdued like mushrooms keep us in the dark and feed us !!!!.
But the change starts with all of us.Ring your old friends in Ryanair you can trust ask them to get involved to defend our ts and cs.Latest rumur is canaries bases will be 5'2 5'3
As bad as they are the business model that is Ryanair will bring them lower unless we do something.
Every little thing we do to change this will help.dont just join REPA or BALAP/IALPA but do something to help out...
As bad as they are the rumours of 5 3 is our oppurtunity to organise.
Its already a worry that commercial gain is more important than safety to management.
No exodus or people leaving will change anything. we all have to stand up to these bullying tactics for our profession and careers

Oh I would love for him to approach me on an off day, in my home town, and try to tell me what to do in my time off. I really would.

widered,

i love you enthusiasm i really do but a union in ryanair....not going to happen with this management.

the only thing that we can do is ask the FO's to turn down the command and put up with their idle threats. they are going to come massively unstuck if they can't get the command upgrades required to fill these S**T hole bases. Unfortunately there are FO's out there who's sole target is to be a captain within 3/4 years fair enough if your 35+ but these guys who are 25ish for gods sake you are going to be flying a plane for the next 30 years of your life relax and enjoy the fact the captain takes all the responsibility. all the FO needs to do is turn up on time, fill in all the paperwork, maybe bring a paper (there are free ones outside the crew room!) and a coffee for the captain and enjoy the view.....simples!

As for the 5/3 i don't believe it....they went that way a few years back and it doesn't work they end up having to work the captains to the limit of their 100 hours and come the new year they don't have any hours remaining. Oh and to help put a spanner in the works stop taking the extra cash when they offer you a flight so that some guy on his working week gets a bloody stby! you all moan about being put on stby but you are all happy to take the money of someone else....hmmm

I would love things to change but there are so many selfish people out there who can't see the wood from the trees. think its time we all started looking after each other.....i hate to quote David Cameron but i think this is one thing he has got right

"You can call it liberalism. You can call it empowerment. You can call it freedom. You can call it responsibility. I call it the Big Society"

here endeth the lesson

U737

I had a phone call on my leave days (which I stupidly answered) and got a bo*****ng for the week before Christmas, you remember the one with all the snow and airport closures.....I felt so valued!

I have always been against unions and strikes but I'm quite pro now.

Unregistered737
That is exactly the attitude management like to promote despondency between us,
It is possible. we just need to start believing it.
Do you think anything ever got done with that attitude,Pilots have been in worse situations with management as I said before the Allied pilots association in American Airlines,
Do you think the Jet2 lads said the same thing before they got BALPA recognition.
If its not possible why did management make such an effort during the last recognition campaign to stop it happening.They now its possible as so we need to believe it.
Success is the sum of small efforts, repeated day in and day out.

beernice
The ryanair.com website has been updated in the last few days saying that DEC's are now considered.....A sign of the lies.... of bellew and obrien.... a sign that sleep IS being lost!???? :cool:

I agree with you that not too much sleep is being lost by :mad:hole David OBrien and P Bellew but for certain, they are NOT sleeping comfortably!!!!!

70-80 confirmed means for definite few hundred, if not a heck of a lot more, seriously considering their options! :rolleyes:

Furthermore on a postiive note, after the extremity of the SHAFTING that FR pilots have gotten especially the Permanent Ryanair pilots, one thing is becoming more clear month-by-month i.e. pilot loyalty and adherence, and conformity and acceptance of suppression is running EXTREMELY THIN!!
And as WIDERED stated
ETC ETC ETC. This is becoming a strong thread in the toughts and minds of the pilot workforce who has been in FR long enuf to feel the hot poker in the :mad: which ryanair has dished out!

I was called to work a day off and said no, for my trouble I got 5 standby days on my next duty week.... either way as beer said, the hours even out so if I loose 20 hours this week, I gain it on another but it doesn't make it ok for crewcontrol to screw you and because of this, I will say no again as I will not help the people out who screwed me.

In terms of the roster, well RYR clearly want the 5/3 for the summer, otherwise they wouldn't continue to offer this on new bases. If you look at the new FTL proposals which BALPA are fighting then airlines can utilise they're crew more in busy months, which means more rostered days required, which could mean a nail in the coffin to the 5/4, so don't brush this one under the carpet!

See yous guys at the EK road show! :E for me, I'm actively looking elsewhere, the CU is on the horizon and I'm not too interested in being bonded, being sent to some !!!! hole on a 5/3 where I can't commute home and we all know what its like to try and get to a base you want to be... atleast Denise is gone, but no doubt shes been replaced by some one of similar personality, although I do hope not and an improvement is made in this area.

If they had a list and people got where they wanted to go eventually then this would make a lot of people happier, just now, theres too much uncertainty.

i think there are ways of standing up to them without the need for a union.

firstly stop the FO's taking command upgrades....no captains, no planes flying If maverick777 is right and they are opening up DEC's that surely means they thought all their FO's would co-operate but they are not...quel surprise!

secondly captains on fixed contracts need to stop being so greedy and taking the extra cash for working a day off. this then means they can't get the people to cover stbys and the whole thing falls apart when someone calls in sick or goes out of hours....stick to your own bloody roster!

thirdly this whole brookfield thing is a complete scam, its barely on the limits of being legal...this extract is taken from HMRC and is used to determine whether or not you are employed or self employed.....

As a general guide as to whether a worker is an employee or self-employed; if the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, then the worker is probably an employee:

Do they have to do the work themselves?
Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it?
Can they work a set amount of hours?
Can someone move them from task to task?
Are they paid by the hour, week, or month?
Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment?
If the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, it will usually mean that the worker is self-employed:

Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense?
Do they risk their own money?
Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves?
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take?
Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services?
Do they regularly work for a number of different people?
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense?


From where i stand....i am an employee!

surely a quick email to HMRC would show that this whole thing is a joke and not quite kosher. Once we do finally get rid of Brookfield this opens up a whole new arena for the unions to come in and keep Vexed happy seeing as we will finally be on common ground.

is this not standing up for what is "right and fair" and the "sum of small efforts every day"? we don't need a union...we need to play them at their own game.

see easy! all done without a union in sight! ;)

Denise gone? So they finally got rid of that hag. Anyone know what happened?

any union would have to be RYR wide - not just UK pilots, otherwise they'll just close / dramatically downsize the UK bases and send the planes abroad. And the problem will remain.

In the meantime - as stated above - DONT WORK ON DAYS OFF.

If you're the type who finds it hard to say no to the sweet well mannered phone monkeys in crew control / rostering then dont answer your phone to unknown / irish numbers when not on standby.

If you do, you're shafting the rest of us and you're one of them, not one of us.


As for command upgrades, i couldn't be less interested. Even if they threaten me with a base change whether i upgrade or not (the latest tactic?), i still wont. Hope others feel the same.

Have heard of it but don't know anyone personally. FO's telling their base TRE they don't feel ready for an upgrade. Moved to another base 3 months later due to "operational reasons".

widered,

You're very well right. That's the only way to go. But you will find it very hard to convince other fellow pilots to think like you.
I think the only way to improve your T&C's it to hit the company where it hurts them the most. And that is money. So, going on stike will probably be the only option to make management change. If they see that they are loosing money they will change. They feel now very strong because they see the pilot group very weak and that they can do whatever they want with you guys.