F/O figures are all wrong in previous post guys

€0.00 While doing Type rating, Base training and Line training with safety pilot (approx 20sectors)
its €40.50 After safety pilot released while line training (€15 deducted to pay for your LTC basically)
€55.50 Until the end of the month up to 500hr on type
€70.50 Until the end of the month up to 1500hr on type
€78.50 until Command

Command pay varies on contract, somewhere between €120.50 and €133.50

These figures are PSBH after taking away the €4.50 they deduct for the sim

On top of this your accountant takes a further 3%. :eek:

Everytime I read threads like this, I thank my lucky stars that I decided to get out of the cockpit and into the head office.

As a 33 year old idiot, somehow, I now earn more, for less work, than a RYR skipper. Alright I don't get to see the sun rise at FL410 anymore, but then again, I don't need to watch the sun rise at all either as I'm fast asleep in bed.

The more I read here about RYR, the more I think that RYR managament are a smart bunch of so and so's and that pilots really are a lot thicker than they think they are.

If I go back to pilot mode, U737, I promise you that you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. If you cannot see why that might be, then do a bit more thinking, or try and live life without having Daddy pay for a type rating for you. (I've had the 'rents guarantee a mortgage for me, so I do know how easy it is compared to someone who has to make a scary decision about taking out a loan without any sort of safety net.)
You might get a different perspective on life.

Is there actually an "exodus" at RYR? Or is it just like it normally is when threads like this roll around on a monthly basis? Basically, just a figment of some over-active imaginations?

As someone who now works outside the cockpit, can I ask for everyone to carry on this sort of thing.
It does make life an awful lot easier for management types who get a lovely big bonus when they manage to cut a few quid from the salary budget. I want to buy a Porsche and so if everyone carries on like this, I should be able to sort that out in the next few months simply by shafting a few pilots who seem to not give a stuff.

Thanks in advance.

Slowly,

replying to your post, to answer your question: "THERE IS AN EXODUS".
I would think the fact you are currently working in Head Office, you would be well aware of the current employment climate that currently exists for pilots....obviously not! For your information, 120+ confirmed pilots working their notice... (yup the number is increasing by the week)


additionally, you state you are now in Head Office.....What kind of job you are doing there? , but if its now in a Management role, you have crossed the fence mate....since you are now looking at your former colleagues from a different perspective, its easy for you to knock them....

Yes people post messages on here in frustration...but not like with any other issues people had with RYR, people are acting with their feet...and walking away....

So Slowly, continue with your , what I suspect, are your management tactics to try and dilute the seriousness of the situation for your guys in Head Office, but if you really were in touch with reality, you would know S&*( is hitting the fan big time..

High low there is no exodus, there is people leaving 120 people thats less than 5 percent of the pilot workforce management couldn't care less.
The only thing that will change the situation at Ryanair is when people can be convinced to come togetheir and not cave in when management come with their intimidation during the next recognition campaign.
Remeber the next time you save 750kgs to 1000kgs of fuel, remeber the next time you take the gear down at 4 instead of 5 miles where the savings go straight into the executives pockets so they can slap us in the face with it.
Pilots in Ryanair save the most of money for the ryanair operation,Yet we are punished for it with !!!!ty contracts no pension no stability.basically being payed only 10months of the year.
If you loose your job as a contracter you are not entitled to employment benefits.
No where in the academic, theoretical or practical world of business would it be considered a prudent, efficient or best practice to punish or penalize individuals who make excellent choices in the workplace. Doing so would verge on lunacy.
So Nick14 for example join a union but dont just join ask what you can do to help out.Would you like you'r children to have these sort of employment rights?
For me the cause of unionisation in this profession is more important because the safety of our passengers should be our primary concern when you treat the pilots like this well you havent learned from the buffalo accident.

Highlow, I don't work for RYR, so I have no specific knowledge of what's going on there, which is why I ask the question.

Why the anti-management biasthough? This is something that drives me nuts in this game. This adversarial stance between head office and crew doesn't help anyone and it's something that I hope I can help to start to change in a small way.

I'm not on the "other side of the fence" I know exactly goes on in the cockpit and the pressures people are under. Just because I made the decision to get into another part of the business, doesn't mean that I want to shaft anyone or do anything but make the business stronger, which should mean that everyones jobs are more secure and the chances of better renumeration are there.

I've flown for an airline that went bust and which before that treated it's staff so appallingly, that M'OL comes across like a fairy God-Mother in comparison. However, a lot of people would have them up as a good place. They paid for your rating and all other costs as you were on a fulltime contract, but rostering was a shambles, every decision was questioned and the aircraft were a mess.

To get a stable company, it needs to be efficient. In this era of huge competition, then it means that pilots need to work a bit harder than they did 30 years ago. That's just the way of it.

I'm not a fan of the way RYR uses contractors instead of proper staff. Somehow they've managed to pull of the trick of paying people a fulltimers wage, but without the job security of being a full time employee. Honestly, it's a genius move and whilst I don't like much of what RYR do, you have to respect the way they go about their business. I should think whoever came up with that particular "solution" was initially shouted down with cries of "They'll never fall for that!"
But they did fall for it and continue to do so.

RYR's job is to provide profit for it's shareholders and they do that very well.

Why don't pilots try to think like business people. Instead of just whinging about how certain practises are "unfair." Make a case for why things should change, don't just bleat.

I remember an HR person asked a bunch of pilots and engineers to come up with a case why each of them should be paid more than the other. All that came from the pilots (and I was one of them) was "pay us more, 'cos we is pilots innit and therefore officially awesome." Instead of making the case for how critical pilots are to the business and how what we do has a significant effect on the bottom line.

Once we'd had that bit of advice, it was easy to put together a business case for how pilots should get paid more, but the vast majority of people who post on Pprune simply blow hot air and never actually do anything other than get indignant and shouty.

This makes pilots easy meat for someone in management who's job it is to save money, but keep the same service level. Which is what I am doing BTW. I'm a business analyst which means I look at how things are being done and improve them.

Individually pilots are usually smart people, but as a group, we're pretty dumb really.

It's amazing how many different figure there are for cadets!!

Here's what my contract pays:

Nothing until safety pilot release,
40/sbh until the end of the month you are checked (35.5)
60/sbh until 500 hrs on type (55.5)
75/sbh until 1500 hrs on type (70.5)
78/sbh until command (73.5)
I think the command figure was 130/sbh so 125.5

The 'exodus' would be greater if RYR and by extention its pilots didn't have such a reputation. Every recruitment going has alot of RYR (and to a lesser extent Easy) applicants desperate to get out.


But by now we all know someone who works in that company and the crap they put up with beggers belief. Then there is other issue's like the rejection of a union, cadets taking work from experienced FO's, P2F, etc, etc,etc.

When it comes to recruitment, fellow pilots are usually involved somewhere in the process. When the going gets tough they might want to know that that they can depend on their fellow pilot colleague. They might not want someone who will shaft them and then say "well what else was I supposed to do if I wanted to get on with my career"

If you have enough money the low-co's maight be easy to get into but getting out might be harder than they expect.

Really?

I know lots of RYR pilots and every single one of them could easily hold their own in any airline around the world.

I'm not going to disagree with any of that, but that is exactly how RYR operate and they're making money for themselves, which is the point of any company.

I don't like how many of the staff are treated and so don't work for them.
However, it doesn't mean that you cannot look from afar and if you take emotion out of it, you have to have respect for what RYR (and that includes the whole team) has achieved in 15 years.

Only a fool dismisses success just because it goes against your morals. I don't like how RYR have done many things, but that doesn't mean that I cannot respect their business acumen. Like and respect are 2 different things.

Fair point, however there are plenty of companies who have enjoyed amazing success while retaining the admiration and respect of their competitors and staff.

Microsoft?

MOL and Bill Gates: compare and contrast....

Or South West etc.etc.

Please don't think I'm excusing bad behaviour, I certainly am not, my own opinion is that any company is stronger long term when it has a stable, well rewarded and recognised workforce. Not that people should be fat, dumb and lazy of course, but all working for the good of the company and eachother.

In 10 years time we'll see if RYR's management strategy has been successful. So far it has and they've been able to get away with stuff like using contractors etc simply because there are more people seeking jobs than there are jobs, so they've been in the driving seat.

IF things change in the job market (and that is a big if) then the current set up might not be sustainable. Only time will tell.

I was of course not talking about their pilot skills. The RYR guys do get a bashing in terms of their reputation. It would be odd if that wasn't reflected in some way when it came to them being recruited into other UK airlines. See post 238.

If BA recruitment is skewed against people from RYR for some reason, then that is very stupid.

It's also mindbogglingly arrogant. I would expect better from BA if this is the case.

4star: If that is the case it says quite a bit more about UK airlines and British mentality than it does about people who have worked for Ryanair.

Slowly: As you state yourself you have not worked for this company. Until you do, you don't really know what you are talking about.

On another note. Anyone been hearing rumours about the Irish government thinking of forcing Ryanair to contract all staff on Irish contracts?

d105, would you care to tell me exactly where I have said anything incorrect? I'd be interested to find out why I know nothing about this.

D105 I have heard Eamon Gilmore on record as saying that if he is in the next government which is highly likely he will bring in legislation for mandatory union recognition among other issues for the employee i believe the issue of contracters is also on the table for them at least.
Some hope in a sea of despair...

Fine Gael also stated they would Scrap the ticket tax .... and it looks like some state assets may need to be sold off to the highest bidder! Maybe the Taj Mahal !!!! HEAP T2 and the DAA along with it!

Might bode well for Irish pilots & upgrades....Or possibly not..

Say again slowly: I agree...but somehow... I feel that some will leave, some will grovel, bitch, moan and groan and remain on, and the rest, will disregard it all and likewise just stay put.. And the merry-go-round countinues.....

Just heard tonight 2 newly upgraded captains moving to Cargolux.

S A S

Oh come on this is so unfair, FR do a lot of good work for charities eg the annual soft porn calendar and the incessantly annoying scratch cards that are forced down your throat on board.
Please note at least 1 penny from each calendar or scratch card wil go to a nominated golf course

Unreg 737

Ok forget the TR scenario, like it or not FR have a certain stigma attached to them regarding their "employment practices", from charging for submitting an application, uniforms, pens, water etc to carrying out LPCs, OPCs etc on days off. You and others were prepared to disregard these FACTS in order to get your arses in the RHS. Regardless of your wonderful pay and quality hours who in their right mind would think FR management would soften in their old age and improve t&c's over time? If anything it was more than likely they would use a sledge hammer to batter them down even further. This is in fact the case and probably it's time you accepted it as being part of it.

Ok so here we go.

Today's flight BRI-BGY 06:30 cacelled.

Reason : lack of flight deck

Already happening in January. Sit tight because it is going to be an interesting summer.

Jedy

I think you should apologise to Ryanair for that remark. On the live flight info page it clearly states it is an ATC delay. A nine and a half hour delay on a domestic flight. Estimated arrival time 15.20z. All quite reasonable.

Repeat after me....

There is no flight crew shortage. Nobody is leaving. It's all under control. We are not worried. We haven't pushed people too far with our greed. Ryanair Pilots are the most under worked overpaid Pilots in Europe. DRINK the Kool-aid.....

Gazman
 

Chinese Cadets? Don't be daft. Don't you think the Chinese airlines need them?

The expansion is eye watering over there, only a mere dribble in FR.

FR can only hope tat lots don't leave, because there isn't a whole load of well financed, intellectually challenged, unregistered 737 type individuals left to rip off.

The Chickens are coming home to roost.

I would like to reply to the statement that some company like BA would not take guys coming from Ryanair:

If it were really the case, why invite them on the selections anyway???? It doesn't make sence to let people come over for the selections if you know beforehand you are gonna turn them down....

Now if nobody from Ryanair had been invited in the first place, that would have been a different story.... but it's not the case!

The problem that FR is facing has nothing to do with the cadets ready to pay for a TR to get some time on a jet but has a lot more to do with the fact that once the people with any 'intelligence' have some hours behind them they try to leave before the get even more shafted....the stupid people (unlike myself) go for the command upgrade.

Stansdead you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder don't you....if your working for FR then you have come through the same route that I have so I don't know where animosity is coming from? Stop being so hypocritical! :ugh:

If you DON'T work for FR then what are you doing commenting on a FR thread?!

The problem is not these 'well financed, intellectually challenged, unregistered 737 type individuals' there are plenty with my common sense that decided that any terms and conditions are better than none at all! Its the fact that we have no captains and even fewer are going through the command process....as for PB's attrition rate I am curious to know what the rate is from BRK... any moron knows that you can make figures tell you what you want, all you need to do is look at the guy at the top of the fuel league!

As for TELSTAR

"There is no flight crew shortage. Nobody is leaving. It's all under control. We are not worried. We haven't pushed people too far with our greed. Ryanair Pilots are the most under worked overpaid Pilots in Europe. DRINK the Kool-aid....."

Erm people are leaving, its under control now but when captains in stn are working 80 - 90 hours at the moment what are we going to do when the fleet size doubles over the summer? You sound like the sort of person who would fall for the media spin that the management dishes out on a regular basis!

Bring on the summer schedule!

U737

Whooooosh :}

Unregistered737

I wish to agree with my honorable colleague: Whoosh!

I guess you prefer your sarcasm sliced a little thicker?

Also:

It's you're. It's a contraction for you are. Have an awesome day!;)

For any Ryanair management following this thread here's a quick tip on how to slow the hemorrhage:

A more transparent base transfer system. If people could see their names on a base list and monitor their progress it would encourage a lot more upgrades, along with convincing captains and FO's who are stuck away from home to stay with the company. This would only work if they didn't hear of new upgrades or direct entries usurping their place on the list. Oh and the monetary investment is minimal which I hear is one of MOL's recent stipulations.

Here's a quick tip on how to open the floodgates:

5/3

Correct,

There are commuting contracts being handed out in Asia that give more days off at home per month than a 5-4 ryanair roster. These contracts also pay alot better and with better working conditions. 5-3 won't be faesable for them unless they introduce with it a proper and fair base transfer system, not a hope in hell.

Unregistered 737,

Chip on my shoulder? When a greasy little Daddy's boy like you can offer me advice, I'll accept that I have a chip on my shoulder.

However, seeing as you're a 2 bit loser who doesn't know how to spell Command, let alone hold one, I'll be waiting a while.

Can you tell me where that 2.5% loan is available? Thought not.

Not that I need one, because unlike you, I've never paid for a rating and I have my Command. I have my own money, through not being a waster and a debtor.

Why comment on an FR thread? Well, why not? It's a free country where I'm sat.

Now run along and see what tosh you can dream up next. The only thing you can teach us all is how to get into unmanageable debt and then pretend you're smart. Jeeezus. What a clown you are.

Thank you all for correcting my spelling never been my strong point!

Stansdead - Read post 300 just incase you can't find it here is a copy of what i said....

'As for finding a loan I dealt with RBS (before the recession!) and it was a student training loan which was 2% above base rate which = 2.5%...I can pass on the loan advisors number if you wish I am sure i can get a finders fee. '

It is a free country but why do you care what FR are doing? It would be incredibly naive (i looked that one up in the dictionary) to think that FR was the cause of degrading terms and conditions across the industry. I am presuming thats why your an FR hater?!

As for taking loans unfortunately it is a sign of the times....everyone my age has a loan whether that be from uni or other training. I however can pay off my loan quicker than your average uni graduate can pay theirs.

Just as an example....the cost for a medical degree is £35,000 for the tuition fees and £25,000 for the student loans (5 year degree!). Your starting salary is likely to be in the region of £29,000 and thats after another 2 years of specialised training.

Tosh....i think not!

as for '2 bit loser' - really that's what you've got? :hmm:

U737

Unregistered 737,

You're not going to find any willing takers for your tales, a veritable parable of debt & misery, at least not amongst any right minded individual.

You said it all. BEFORE the recession....

There were lots of people doing lots of rash things, such as lending impressionable young fools large sums of money. Much of this rash lending has, of course, been well commented upon in the press in the intervening times.

There is no virtue whatsoever in saddling yourself with a mortgage sized debt, in order to jump the queue into the RHS.

One day you will realise your gross folly yourself. Then you'll pipe down a touch.

Until then, there will be plenty of people to remind you of it free of charge on here.

Apart from joining the forces how do you become a pilot without forking out some cash then? :confused:

This goes back way before the recession. As of 9-11 all the major carriers ceased their scholarships and after that unless you want to spend 5/6/7 years working for nothing just to build up the hours to get that jet job what else is out there?

Oh and as for enjoying the years before the recession your no doubt sat in a nice house on your captains salary and enjoyed the benefits of the housing boom? Like all your posts your a bit hypocritical. :*

And as for blaming me (meaning ALL trainee pilots post 9-11) for the recession is just idiotic. In the eyes of a bank i believe we are a much safer bet than someone with a 110% mortgage!

Its business and my balance sheet is doing alright thank you.

I do love a good slanging match but if we could keep it about the thread and not air your various unfounded petty insults that would be fantastic. Inane comments about each other are really a thing for the playground don't you think!

End Rant :{

As per the rating argument, we live in a world where unfortunately that seems to be the way forward. I believe some have already broken it down as to the differing ways to go about it but the reality is that most are doing it: FR, EZY, ex XL, TCX, J2, Baby and Fly Be just to name a few. I am sure you can all add more to this list. I woul have loved to live in a world where you could be given a rating but alas such was the way when I completed my training!

To the thread, unfortunately IMO I think it will take a huge number of resignations/command upgrade rejections to make an impact on this bunch!

Enjoy anyway and happy days to all.

73 :ok:

I know someone who has just sent PB the old cheers for the last 3 years but you can stick your job up your jacksy ta very much and all that. BA has offered him a position after their recent round of recruitment.

Well done 73addict, for wrestling the thread back on track, and for keeping the tone civilised.
And Tripitaka is spot on: for minimal cost there are lots of ways to keep the pilots happy, particularly the imminent command upgrades, as these are the ones companies need to hang on to, and the ones most likely to leave.
Transparent basing policy is one.
And if 5/4 goes, exodus will be entirely the correct word.

In response to D105, my acct recently mentioned watch this space regards the government (read revenue commissioners) looking closely at Ryanair's contracting situation vis a vis Ireland tax.

Unregistered 737,

I didn't blame you, or other pilots for the global recession. Can you point me to where I did? What I did say is that banks did things that were rash, pre recession, such as lending large sums of money to impressionable young fools.

"unless you want to spend 5/6/7 years working for nothing"......what are you doing now then? All that debt to service. You're working for the banks and FR shareholders only.

You seem to think that you're incredibly clever for loading yourself in debt and putting your ability to own a home, or save meaningfully back by 15 years. You're not.

You'll find many people in BA who spent 5/6/7 years "working for nothing" in order to get there. At your interview in February, I'd knock off some of your smug attitude and knuckle down.

As for hypocrisy. Why am I hypocritical? I didn't get in debt in order to fly. I've never been a flash Harry with a Porsche. I've saved and I've worked hard.

That's not hypocrisy. It's called not being dumb.

Good luck with your interview into BA. Are you going to devise a way to try and fast track their seniority system? But only in order not to waste 5/6/7 years being an FO?

stansdead, I am sure you are an amazing individual with the enviable experience of a seasoned pro! However, just be careful with your comments. To call people fools because they have done thing differently to you is a massive generalisation and grossly naive. I am sure that there are many on this site who trained post 9/11 when sponsorships did not exist or were incredibly sparse. UNLESS one is fortunate to have the bank of M and D then short of going down the debt route there was no other way. Yes you could have gone out to get a job to raise funds but how many years will that put you back? More than 5,6,7 I wager. As for the constant barrage for those who do have bank of M and D again WHY? Good luck to them, it doesn't make them any less qualified at the end or any less of a pilot!
It is quite simple this industry has and is surviving off of the fact that people are desperate to become an airline pilot, and given the investment to get your initial licence, are relying on the fact that people will be willing to go a bit further to fulfil their ambition.
Realistically with the theory of speculate to accumulate there are some good choices that can be made and have been made. For a young single wannabe the idea of short term debt to reap the rewards of a full career is not such a terrible thought.
I suggest you wind your neck back in and realise that difference does not mean foolishness or dumbness!!
All the best
73

73Addict,

You're as naive and foolish as unregistered737 if you think getting circa £50 - 100k in debt is short term.

I suggest you wind your neck back in. I can say what I want on this subject.

I couldn't give a f?ck if people borrow money or not. Or at what rates. What annoys me, and many others is the view that 5/6/7 years in anything other than a jet is working for nothing and a waste of time.

The attitude of taking on huge debt in a gamble on a career in FR/Brookfield is reckless. It stinks of "I'm not waiting my turn" and has directly contributed to the rapid deterioration of conditions of employment in our profession. I pity you. You know no better.

The adage of a Doctor borrowing to fund his/her career does not add up either. They enjoy: permanent contracts/ sick pay/ final salary pension and a security of tenure.

What do you get for your £29k starting pay in FR? Err....£29k and nothing more.

Justify it all you want. It's just like buying a bigger TV than you can afford on credit. All part of the "I want it now" spoilt rotten generation.

You have much to learn.

Can you guys start a new thread on the topic of debt so we can get this one back on track??!!:ugh: