That would be absolutely true in a conventional airline Bum. However, more than half of Ryanair's pilots are contractors. If they go on strike Ryanair will only start to lose out on the money if they can't muster the staff to man all their flights.

For that to happen you'd need a very large number of pilots willing to go on strike. The chances of getting to such a number without any form of union or proper organisation is rather slim.

there's never been a truer saying than "you reap what you sow", probably all you guys bitching here condoned this management behaviour when you signed up for the type rating and the Brookfield Contract.

You were warned at the time but you never listened, unfortunately there is a queue from Lands end to John O'Groats waiting to fill your boots.

Good riddance!!!! You asked for it so stop complaining!!!

Good to be talking amoungst friends.
A few points.
Unregistered 727 " love you enthusiasm i really do but a union in ryanair....not going to happen with this management."
Why not, it is us that vote for a union not management. I agree unions are behind the changes that have happened in the airline industry in the last few years but as a start all pilots in FR join BALPA. We can work out the politics later.
Wrong stuff "any union would have to be RYR wide - not just UK pilots, otherwise they'll just close / dramatically downsize the UK bases and send the planes abroad".
Yes on the union europe wide. Why would any company close/ downsize a base just because of a union. Do you think that the base exists just because there is no union or because there is a profit to be made?. do not buy in to the scare tatics. If a base is to closed or downsized it will be. BOH!!!!

Pressman "I think 70-80 is a bit conservative as well " I know what I am talking about. That is confirmed leaving. take it or leave it!
beachbumflyer "And that is money. So, going on stike will probably be the only option to make management change"
I would never go on strike!! However from time to time I catch a virus and that can be very contagous!! A lot of other guys can catch it, may take us all out.
d105 "That would be absolutely true in a conventional airline Bum. However, more than half of Ryanair's pilots are contractors"
Ah oh no their not! The irish revenue have already accepted you are employees. Hence the "mcNamara" deal. Its just a scam to avoid employee taxes thats about to change this year! Brookfield guys will be paying tax. If any BRK "contractor"had the balls to take this to court they would win. And you are supposed to abide to the Ryanair FTL's. Try that on a 5/3!!

By the way in Ireland it is illegal to pay a precentage of your wage for a service. It is either a set fee or billable hours.
So who has it better Easyjet or Ryanair?
Shame the girls and boys of Aer Lingus are showing us the way. Only mistake they made is not to wait until late May,.
Again what have we got to lose !!!!( but leave the fight to May)

Michaeolearygenius- first off i'll start with the name, there is nothing genius about cost cutting if your ruthless enough and then even more ruthless with 3 billion in the bank earning 400- 600 a million a year in profit but still finding it necesary to cut your staffs salaries and conditions.its just plain greed.

You reap what you sow--I took the job in Ryanair as a reluctant contracter because it was a sounder financial decision than going on the dole.If i didnt join, the system would still be the same because thats the way ryanair have created it.this has been discussed at lenght add nausuem.
Bearing this in mind this doesnt mean i cannot disagree with the way the company operates because as a professional pilot i believe it is my duty to stand up to anyone company or otherwise that may encroach on safety for financial gain.

MOLgenius are you his new b***h who was the successful applicant for his business development course and given his first task? I am sure when MOLGenius is at the pearly gates he will get a message saying REQUEST DENIED. Reap and sow MOL!

Oh and for this long list of people from lands end to John o'groats.....you can't put guys with 250hrs in the RHS despite you thinking FO's are a useless waste of space :mad:

I have made three suggestions on how to 'bring down' the management but don't see anyone else producing viable options......where do we go from here? Are we not stuck for another 4yrs after the last failed balpa attempt? I think pprune is great but it generally is nothing but hot air we need some action people! (feeling slightly anarchist today maybe it was watching the student protest last night!) :E

MOLGenius, you were probably after a flaming but many people will actually agree that you do reap what you sow. As for being warned about RYR but not listening - i'm now in a far better position than when i finished my initial training with lots of high quality training and experience on the 738 - it was a logical move at a time when nobody else was hiring and your advice was wrong, basically.

Also, reaping what you sow applies to ryanair too. As someone else said, a large number of us took the decision to work for them reluctantly, when everybody else was going bankrupt and laying off pilots. It was a sensible move under the circumstances and i personally joined with an open mind, but the company is clearly getting worse and worse and its now time to take the red pill and go back into the real world...

The problem is that all the once decent 'other airlines' terms and conditions have plummeted towards Ryanair's because you guys worked for Ryanair.

You all condoned crap conditions in the first place but will now never be able to achieve what those before you managed in legacy airlines.

This downward spiral race to the bottom is only because all the good airlines are telling their pilots that "Ryanair pilots only get x why should you get any more?" all the time.

I don't think any of the responders to my post actually have the savvy to understand what I was saying. It was all you "get my arse on the RHS no matter the cost" guys that have got the situation to what it is now. You bent over with your pants at your ankles then and never complained and you're doing the same now. Trust me, if everyone had stood up and said at the time, "no I'm not paying for a TR", things would be better now. That was the start of the slippery slope. Maybe they would not be as big an airline as they are now but would this be a bad thing?

So you bent over and said nothing the first time and paid for the TR so management have no reason to believe you won't bend over and say nothing again. Talk of a strike in FR is just claptrap, no one is big enough to stand up to them. You started this mess so stop complaining, nobody forced you to pay for the TR so shut up and lie in the horrible little bed you all made for yourself yet strenuously deny "it's not my fault it was my only option", guys it was so definitely "your own fault"!!!!!!

Wrong stuff, you may have a shed load of high quality hours now but you are not or appear not to be happy in your current role, do you really think it's going to be better T&C's in other airlines, most airlines have jumped on the FR bandwagon now unfortunately.

Guys lets not fall into the trolling trap MOLGenius or Whatdoesthisbuttondo are trying to set up. Just ignore it.

MOLG - we are not as stupid as you so yes we understand your posts. Please tell me where the difference is between a bond for 3 years on a reduced salary and paying for the TR upfront on a full salary. With debt being very cheap (if you can get it) I reckon I am better off paying upfront. For a supposedly trained accountant you ain't the brightest of sparks.

I earn better money working for FR than most of my counterparts but when it comes to doing the command with them that's when it becomes ridiculous. None of us who have lives want to move to another base on reduced salary and a non-commutable roster and hence the recent upsurge of people turning them down. It is FR who is loosing out here with some very capable and good pilots leaving to other companies. From 90% of the guys I have spoken to at my level they aren't going to take the command regardless of you sending them away to another base because they know it's not right. So we are standing up for ourselves. Personally I am going to everything in my power to make sure I get those interviews that are cropping up on an increasingly regular basis now and get the hell out of here (I got a couple lined up - apparently they like the FR guys as we work quickly and efficiently and know how to programme an FMC - thanks for the training FR you have done me proud, I did pay MOL for it though so I presume it's all part of the service)

I can't speak for wrong stuff but I am happy. I work with some very nice people, can go home from work and forget about it and in my bed every night, depending on your tax bill at the end of the year my net income has been enough to be able to reduce all of my loan to virtually nothing (I don't go and splash out on the latest BMW/Audi!)

As for TnC's being the same at other airlines, firstly please provide me with the evidence secondly I won't be any worse off than I am now so again where is the problem.

MOLG- you sound like a guy who is stuck on a turboprop who should of paid for the TR but instead your bonded to a company for 3 years and now you hours don't count for s**t. If your not like 'this guy' then you will no doubt have countless health problems from being so stressed all the time!

who's the savvy one now.......:mad:

I have fallen into the trap but I wanted to get my pennies worth! :}

well you're entitled to your passionately expressed views, i believe that primarily we each take the best decision for ourselves out of the available options, its that simple, so i'm certainly not whining and i have no regrets, which is apparently what you'd like to believe. I enjoy my job (the day to day stuff) but at the same time theres nothing more i can get from the company that i actually want and the cons now outweigh the pro's. I think this is the way lots of the senior FO's feel.

Also, as for airlines jumping on the FR bandwagon, i think you're letting the other airlines management off the hook a bit there. Nobody has held a gun to anyones head in all this, it has been an industry wide correction which was waiting to take place, the low co's have just been at the cutting edge, shall we say. It wont last though, its just a transitional stage during the rapid expansion of the low co's. The legacy carriers will start to hammer them in terms of value for money at some stage i think. all the best.

As we don't seem to be seeing pilots at these "other airlines" taking a principled stand and resigning, then I don't think its really fair to blame Ryanair pilots for the downward spiral in terms and conditions that they are apparently having to put up with. Flybe FOs take home around 20k - perhaps we should blame them too? Or perhaps we could all accept that this is what is happening to the free market of pilots salaries and stop moaning.

"and stop moaning" this is what the king of France said to the peasants that wanted more bread back in the 1700s....

ooooppsss

Work to rule
 

Listen chaps.

We all know that you can't strike.
We all know that cadets are going to go to the bank of Mum & Dad to get a job flying new 737s.
We all know that SFOs will take the base move to europe to get the 4th stripe with "no positions in the UK for at least 2 years".
We all know that Brookfield is taking over the world and dodging millions of pounds worth of Tax on behalf of Ryanair.
We all know that none of this will change because no single person will start the ball rolling because they know as he takes a step forward, the rest of the pilot population in Ryanair will take one step back. This has been shown year in year out with the REPA and BALPA campaigns.

So, what to do. Well, while you are all sat on your backsides moaning about how things will never change have a little read of that PINK BOOK.

START WORKING TO THE OPS MANUAL!!!!

That means coming in 45 mins before off blocks. That means USING COMMANDERS DISCRETION and if you are knackered, DON'T FLY HOME! You have the choice.
That means not answering your phone when you are not on duty.

If everyone starts reading that Ops Manual, and follows it TO THE LETTER, then there is nothing they can do. You are doing what they have written in black and white. But as long as FOs are coming in 1:30 before off blocks to do the paperwork, and Captains are flying home after doing 13 hour duty days, then they are going to keep laughing at you all, and keep having weekly meetings with free tea, coffee, and biscuits that have come from the pay rise that they have frozen from you for the past 3 years running.

Your call!

Whistleblower 'We all know that none of this will change because no single person will start the ball rolling because they know as he takes a step forward, the rest of the pilot population in Ryanair will take one step back. This has been shown year in year out with the REPA and BALPA campaigns.--

I disagree with this post campaigns have failed before but we have learned from them we are all aware of managements tactics they are not changing just intimidation...

The Government in Ireland is changing in Ireland labour will be in government there and the labour laws will change by the end of the year that means an end to the brookfield farce...mark my words its only a matter of time

For me the reasons for being in a union apart from looking for unionisation of the company are clear..
You have an accident and go off the rwy you have legal backing every company will try string the pilot up first.
Secondly - if you ever have any disciplinary action you always have a unions legal advise and backing.

It gets better and better.....
 

My GOD !

Emirates Roadshow in Dublin, announced on their website for the 25 January 2011

500 yards from the Ryanair Headquarters in Dublin...

I'd nearly go down there for the entertainment value alone......
Talk about hitting Ryanair where it hurts....


And guys turning up there, especially with all the management snooping around....u think arriving at the door, a RYR pilot would expect roster changes due to "operational reasons". If that is the case....the gloves are OFF !!!

Comments please

I would go and make your interest known to what ever official mick is there and counting.

Other unions
 

It seems Ryanair left Marsailles due the french tax system, Copenhagen base not yet a fact, rumours say because local unions will block for Ryanair, Rygge base also problems with norwegian government.
Maybe in the future Ryanair does'nt even need a union if all the unions in europe starts to work for them as well as the governments may question the tax problem ?

Well I suspect the future will include contracts for different countries. As I understand RYR are resigned to the fact that they will need to put the Italian bases on Italian contract - they have a huge market in Italy so it's a different story to the French/MRS scenario. Due process in Italy takes time, so who knows when this will happen.

I don't know what happened with RYR, they had all the enthusism when they moved to the UK, set up a UK company and issued UK contracts. They moved further afield and just couldn't be arsed following due process.

Unreg 737

The difference being that having already paid between EURO 40-90,000 on initial training you have to add another EU 30k for TR, then during training you have to pay rent/hotel bills etc while on zero salary, and then a reduced salary until line training finished. Is a a new FO really going to be able to give their all to flying the aircraft while wondering how he's going to pay his next loan repayment, mortgage/rent payment, leccy bill, car loan etc? And don't get me started on P2F!!!!

But of course most cadets don't actually have to pay these loan payments as mummy and daddy have sacrifced the equity on their homes and put at risk the biggest asset they have worked for 9-5 for most of their lives.

Anyway I digress, the jist of this is the eroding terms and conditions. You were all MOL disciples when you forked out for the TR, all of you being pieces of the crazy Ryanair jig-saw that you saw through rose tinted spectacles.

Now your love affair with MOL has ended you are acting like crazy, jilted women, whining about how FR are not the airline you fell in love with. You were all part of the jig-saw so shut up and deal with it. :ok:

MOLG you just don't get it do you? If you had half a brain on you you would of done the sums but because I am nice and i like to help stupid people below are the figures which I ran through before taking the job at FR

Here is an example for you.....bearing in mind both cadets have forked out for the same training so we can disregard that!

Cadet at thomas cook

Yr1 - £30,000 BEFORE TAX
Yr2 - £32,000 BEFORE TAX
Yr3 - £34,000 BEFORE TAX

Total - £96,000 BEFORE TAX

At Ryanair

£20,000 upfront for TR - If you were a good negotiator you would probably be paying 2.5% interest so over the 3 years that is £1500 for the three years roughly!

Then as for the salary - yes i lived of baked beams for a month or so whilst i got myself settled. there are very cheap bnb's in most of FR bases. so as for my salary working on some rough numbers hear but i fly on average 750 hours a year...

Yr1 - I worked 11 months (i passed my line check within a month) on a rate of 687 hours @ E75 = 51,500
Yr2 - 56350
Yr3 - oo my rate went up at the end of last year because i had 1500hours but to be nice to you MOLG i will leave it at the same rate = 56350

Total before tax = E164,200 convert that into pounds (I will also give you a good rate MOLG of 0.7 (over the past few years it has been well above that got up to 0.85 and therefore increasing my salary by 15% but we wont try and complicate things for you too much MOLG)

So my total earnings before tax come to £114,940 oh minus the £1500 for the interest and £20000 for the TR comes to £93,440...this is not to mention the tax benefits you can take from offsetting your TR and maybe not declaring a few hundred hours (should you choose to do so!)

MOLG look at the facts before you come on here and moan about us complaining. You say the same BS about how we should just take it in the a5s because we signed the contracts when in actual fact it made perfect sense to take the job....At the moment I am in a stable job with good pay and the poor boy from thomas cook was given a seasonal contract on 81% after year 2...now who made the right decision :mad:! woooo saaaa

Personally my pay isn't too bad what I don't like and the reason i am wanting to leave is because they treat us like :mad: Did i know this before I came YES but when you don't have 'bank of mum and dad' you need to take any job so that you can pay for the other loan you have taken out!

This is a business my friend and you will no doubt be broke if you ever decided to become a pilot.....

U737

P.S For everyone else i am finding it hard not to keep on falling into their trap and I am sorry! MUST DO BETTER!

I'm bored with this I wish you all well in whatever path you follow.

Was that a white flag?

I have heard MOL is to start charging £40 to print a P45 for a leaving employee !!

BBC News - Ryanair challenges Spanish court over boarding passes

Lid

Can anyone gove me the email address of the chief pilot of Ryanair in a P.M.? Thanks.

Unregistered737:

Can you tell me where, oh (to copy your patronising tone) where, you can borrow at 2.5% from in this day and age?

Apart from your Daddy.

Such rates are NOT available to borrow at, especially for greasy little oiks like you.

Do you think we are all stupid enough to believe your bullsh1t?

Grow up:ugh:

Flying Lid

Where did you hear that?

And how is it even going to work, we are mostly BRK contractors or in that dodgy company set up my the mafia accountants, P45 is for employees right? if none of us are what do we need with a P45 from Ryanair?

Plan? It's Ryr!

Bully Bully Bully! It's all they know.....

No, no white flag here.

I am not interested in how much U737 earns a year, it's not the point I am making.

If you are subserviant enough to join FR with all the associated costs required to get into the RHS and in turn ruining the t&c's of the whole industry then you immediately gave MOL and his honcho's the upper hand. They realise you bent over to start so see no reason to treat you with respect now.

Southwest and Virgin Blue to name but two airlines that people seem to want to work for, also require you to bring your own type rating. I think it is a bit of an oversimplification to blame the way the whole pilot training market has gone on Ryanair.

Lederhosen, you are absolutely right.
Almost every airline requires at least type rating, and preferably time on type, particularly for DECs. You can't put the reducing T&Cs of this industry (and most indusrtries...) squarely at Ryanairs door. MOLG has issues, and is trying (successfully..!) to wind some people up.
There are a few quality legacy carriers giving type training, more in fact than in recent years, so this is a good time to think positively about what can be acheived, even if sandbox/ long haul isn't your bag.
What we can do is use the short window of opportunity to try to get a better deal, and not just roll over and say "ah well, what the heck..."
Particularly when there are lots of improvements to lifestyle that can be made for relatively little, or no cost to the airlines.
It just takes a subtle shift in attitude. Starting with ceasing to regard us as a bunch of :mad:'s...

16024
 

C'mon, you knew what you were doing was mercenary when you agreed to FR T&C's, and although FR are not entirely responsible for SSTR being the norm, they were, and are, a major driving force in the introduction of this practice. Unfortunately other airlines saw how easy it was for FR to make part of their annual profits from selling TR's to cadets and followed suit thus bringing down the T&C's of most of the industry.

So take your medicine, accept the FR "regime" have no interest in you and shut up!:=

U737,
Your figures are wrong. The F/o pay is 35euro/hr until 500 hrs on type.
Basic Captains salary for the latest bases in the Canaries is 45000 euro.

WHAT! :\

I was speaking to a DUB FO (ryanair contract) the other day and he said his basic was €40000!
how can you do the upgrade and only get an extra €5000 on top???

Unreal! :mad:

I'm pretty sure your FO figures are wrong as well Reamer.

I think the cadets are limited to around €40/hr during line training only.

You can't compare Ryanair to SWA. SWA has been asking for a type rating for a long time, but they don't hire cadets, and you can get your type rating wherever you want for a lot less money. Plus, their T&C's are a lot better. There is no comparison between the two. SWA was the business model MOL used for Ryanair. Why he didn't copy SWA pilots' T&C's? And the pilots at SWA don't want to leave the company, they're happy there.

Airspeedlow,
He must be an old contract FO. 28000 is the rate for FO.

Wowzers that created a s**t storm.

I do apologise for digressing from the original thread but those figures were somewhat generalised (though very close!) it was more to prove a point that it makes no difference between paying upfront for a TR than being bonded.

I do however take offence to being called an greesy oik! Its the sort of thing my father called me when I asked to borrow the money off him for the training! (i might like to point out that the only help from the bank of mnd I had was in securing my loan....they had faith in me and my abilities and I hope that some day I can so the same for my kids)

As for finding a loan I dealt with RBS (before the recession!) and it was a student training loan which was 2% above base rate which = 2.5%...I can pass on the loan advisors number if you wish I am sure i can get a finders fee.

Final point on this....I am on an old BRK contract and I was only line training for a month or so then it went to E60 then onto E75 then onto E85 so my figures aren't wrong just averaged to KISS!

So back to the point.....:)

Its incredible that people like MOLG are on this thread in the first place. We know you think FR is the pits but actually, what people on hear are talking about is trying to leave and move on. Use and abuse...get some hours and then F. off to something better. Whats so wrong in that? The loan won't pay itself without a job so the options for me were FR or no job.... well unless your an idiot thats a no brainer!

MOLG for someone that is 'bored of this' and 'has not interest in us' why do you keep responding? Go somewhere else to get you 2 cents worth unless you can come up with something new and relevant.....

All I want to know is how short of captains they are going to be, how desperate they will be to upgrade FO's and whether or not the BRK contracts are going to be withdrawn

if the price is right then I will stay on...its business! Just incase anyone from FR reads this E45000 is NOT the right price := and hence why i wont be taking the upgrade (amongst other reasons!!!)....FR can only go on this way for so long before people do start to stand up to them and this is what this thread is all about. finally people are seeing what they are truly like (sorry MOLG if we were a bit behind the drag curve but we will catch up!) and I hope and pray that things change not just for us but for everyone. the recession has been a b***h and it has taken its toll....try blaming the :mad: bankers before you go attacking FR pilots.

U737

As of today,

I am no longer working outside my 5/4 as all they do is take me off a flight to work an "extra" on a day off.

Working my days off to help with base administration as it is unpaid and unrewarded.

Working hard to save fuel or handling agents from difficult situations.

I will be working towards a better future for all in the airline industry. Stopping so called "companies" charging for uniform, training, and giving out poor contracts with reducing terms and conditions and treating hard working, committed and genuine pilots like crap!!

Please let's join together to protect ours and our childrens future!!

Edited for spelling