Who died and made you God of Pprune? That is THE most arrogant statement i have ever seen in my working life. Are you sure you passed your last CRMS on your own or did you need a little help/push (maybe your CC colleagues helped you out and let you take a peek at their exam sheet?)

At least I know how to spell, and i never use text speak.
I was going to call you an idiot, but i won't.

Abusing the sky.

I am a better pilot than you.

Howzat?

beaver,

I'm sure you are. I can't fly an airplane at all.
However If you must go down that road, i'm sure i know what to do, should a pax have a say, heart attack, better than you. Same goes for all the other emergency situations that may happen in the cabin.

So you stick to what you (maybe?) do best and i'll stick to what i do best at work. No need to parade your skills or stripes, i fully understand and respect the years, money and study you put into your career.

Capisci?
:ok:

deja vu again?
 

How very unpleasant and tedious this seasonal event has become, much like the Ryanair threads of late 2008, and the thread of early 2008, and the thread of late 2007, in fact right back to the birth of PPrune! Polarised and opposite views are written by the same people again and again and again and again.
Pathetic.
Result: the same as always...........no progress in either direction, status quo reigns and still MOL's door hasn't been kicked in by any union, nor will it ever be.

It's a bit odd that people accepted the worst Ts and Cs around to get a job and then complain about how bad their lots is. Has Ryanair got worse or was it always the worst employer around. The company is only doing so well because you all work for so little and other airlines just can't compete.

Lets face it if Ryanair crews had better offers of employment they'd be there already wouldn't they?

Nobody actually wanted to work for grubby Ryanair when they started out in their dream to be a pilot. All the hosties appear to be eastern Europeans who couldn't get a job working in the local travelodge.

I hope you all manage to improve your lot so that better employers have somewhere higher to aim when they look at where the bottom is.

Button Boy

Trolling again?

YAWN.

Whatdoesthisbuttondo,

Once again, get off the microsoft flight sim, it does not make you a pilot. Just an aerosexual.

I'm not surprised you don't like those flightsim guys, unlike you they don't have to pay for their own interview/training/sim check/uniform/food/I.D./car park pass/base move/medicals/healthcare/holidays/pension etc etc

Quiteright button boy

nor do they fly planes! lol

do you get excited when you see old versions of the arcade game Afterburner! lol must be like seeing a fresh 18year old hostie to you

Trolling or not, like it or not.
Button Boy is correct.
I fyou want to find the lowest pay terms conditions and respect from management to its work force, people do bench mark from Ryanair.

If you want find the most spineless group with the lowest self respect for their proffesion look no further than ryanair.

If you want to find the airline with the most staff happy to stab each other in teh back for a small amount extra (i.e. not as big a pay cut) look no further than ryanair.

Before you get on your high horse about what would I know, Slim Shady, I am a RYR pilot, and am, utterly ashamed of us as a group. Half the pilots that deal with the company on pay deals that think its not so bad, should be banned from every doing the take off performance calculations.

No wonder we have so many gross error checks in the SOP's so many of us cant do basic arithmatic. (Yes my spelling is not the best, I am not paid to spell I am paid to fly).

To the comment about first aid, how bloody arogant you are, to assume you in all cases more than the Flight Deck.
No flight deck member would ever assume the reverse, however for first aid I can tell you one thing, I am a St Johns first Examiner and a pilot. Now tell me your First Aid knwoledge is better than mine ??

You lot all need to think with a clearer head, your all to involved and up your own backsides. This is about pure respect, its not about BALPA comign to RYR, they are here beacuse and only becuase the pilots, not all admitedly but some actually asked them to come.

BALPA are not a third party they act on what we as a group ask them to.
Terms and conditions go down ? Yeah your right they do, under BALPA they would hopefully go down less or maybe increase. LEave to RYR they will always go down.

Who here remembers the recent memo on Sector Pay and the HMRC investigation to determine new agreements ?

How many of you actually think being based in one place and always returning there actually entitles you to any allowance at all.
Office workers dont claim for cleaning their shirts and trousers so why should we be able to.
They take lunch to work without claiming so why should we be allowed to.

Think about all those things then tell me there isnt a real terms pay cut on the way.

Yes we all know who the management members are that post here, or who their lap dogs are. Were not stupid we know you will do whatever it takes to protect your over inflated bonuses, wages and develop your ever growing ego's.

Just remember at some point you will hit critical mass and at that point people will start to wonder why bother with all the responsibility when they can go else where.

Slim etc you can argue with my post all you want, your opinion has been taken on board, I dont agree with you. If RYR want to close a base they will do no matter what I suppose you want to be paid for relocation when they close it for commercial reasons ? or you happy at the moment just blame your colleagues for wanting a bit more respect in the workplace ?

This is my first and only post here, I trust I put my point across.

BALPA, T&G or a union of some description christ even if its just an internal union set up by us and run by us, ngotiating on our behalf has to be the way to go.
If we all stick together as one, there is absolutely nothing RYR can do to us.
They cant sack all the pilots and replace them overnight, it is physically impossible, are you all really so nieve you cant see that ?

You need gross error checks to make certain that the computer and all the automated systems are correct: automation, remember, is dutifully dumb.

We are moving away now, in every airline, from pilots who were brought up on steam driven instrumentation, doing mental gymnastics to navigate, calculate fuel usage and project to final fuel, plan descents etc.

The "playstation generation" doesn't necessarily have that ability to mental math as we do: it has nothing to do with Ryanair, and everything to do with technological changes and educational changes.

So this is all about Respect !!!
What a load of utter tripe and waffle.
BALPA is not there to get you respect, respect is something thats earned not just given.
If those seeking BALPA recognition were not just out to obtain their own personal self satisfaction, and massage their "EGO'S" they would stop and think about others and not just themselves.
There are deeper issues here, one of which seems to be the BRK / RYR relationship.
You share the same flight deck, and have the same career goals, yet the RYR brigade refuse to let a large proportion of the workforce, have its say in recognition, either because they are frightened of loosing, or because big brother BALPA said "NO" :ugh:
You think you will get improvements in T&C's with BALPA at the helm, this is total hogwash, BALPA have done less for the independent sector than if they had not represented the company over the past few years, and with confrontational management, they can and will do nothing,
Strike action has been mentioned here, well there are enough non union guys and girls out there to walk right past you and operate those flights, while you sit by a brazier with your career going up in flames.
Do you think any recruiter wants strikers on their team "NO".
Once a trouble maker makes his / her mark in the industry they might as well tear up that little green book and add that to the flames of their lost career.
Your only way of achieving success is total cohesion as a workforce something which today we find very little of in this industry.
Those who Bleet BALPA BALPA BALPA should look for the big picture and include all their colleagues not just a die hard few.
RYR has been the European leader in Low Cost operations but long before they got established other operators were already charging for training and giving minimum salaries, this did not start with RYR, nor the down turn in T&C's but because RYR are always in the public eye (Free publicity is always good publicity) people needed a bogey man to blame (Enter MOL stage right).
To the BALPA die hards on here Grow up, or get out of RYR (If anyone else will have you) better still leave aviation, and its running to those who know how, its certainly NOT BALPA.

Lies, Damn Lies and BALPA Bullsh1t
 

Isn't the spin just marvellous: " ENTIRELY IN COMPANY TIME"...I have done everything from home in my spare time. If I canvas, I do so in my own time.

The only distraction to any UK based Ryanair pilot( and a Flight Safety issue) is the sheer arrogance of BALPA and their reckless pursuit of a political victory at the expense of our jobs and the jobs of our colleagues.

BALPA will not pay your mortgage: BALPA will not put the food on the table for your kids. Vote NO and avoid having your dignity and respect flattened in the Job Centre.

Whats the difference between sitting next a pro-BALPA guy harping on about the good old days or an anti-union guy spurting management bull$hit all day?

There is none really, except you get sacked for one and not the other.

And in your own words....


Boring again?

YAWN

RYR pilots reject BLAPA in droves.
 

From today's poorly written and rather desperate BLAPA newsletter.....
But you can be sure they won't take no for an answer. Cancer is not so easily disposed of, but must be by means fair or foul.

In the very next sentence, then, it comes as no surprise to read.....
I think your stupidity has effected your understanding of outright rejection. Just what part of NO do you not comprehend, BLAPA?

Oh really? You screwed the pooch back in '05 when we the pilots told you to piss off, and now you're back again. Would not wish to impose anything, my hairy arse. You people have raised bull!!!! and hypocrisy to an art form.

The base closure and dismissals soon to be announced are in response to you, BLAPA, and only you, in direct answer to you pedalling your worthless, corrupt, incompetent organisation of slippery political apparatchiks on pilots lacking in experience and perspective to know you for what you really are.

When hundreds are thrown on the pyre in a demonstration of who the daddy really is at Ryanair, BLAPA will have professional blood on their hands, and not for the first time. For those of you who still think BLAPA worth the oxygen and energy they steal, despite a library of evidence to the contrary, I would encourage you to observe their response to your impending misfortune. Rather revealing, I predict. They do not give a !!!! about you, only in the maintenance and expansion of their turgid organisation of short, small-:mad: has-beens.

:mad: OFF BLAPA.

Look in the mirror Leo.

I find it astounding that in this day and age a major international company can cajole and corral a professional workgroup into giving up their legally permitted right to collective representation by means of abuse, threats and lies.

If there are any journos reading this, there is a news story here for you. The mill owner mentality is still present in the 21st century.

Quote:
We, of course, respect their position, but I think the anti-BALPA propaganda has affected their understanding of the process.

Ryanair have many pilots, who, from previous experience, have seen the workings of Balpa. The vast majority of us have seen how destructive and manipulative this union representation can be.

Well Leo, if what you say is true, and indeed why not ? sometimes (like all of us ) you talk crap, but you don't normally lie, what we discussed by PM may well come to pass. Pearls cast to swine ? or swine in the company of pearls. . . . .you know, I'm not so sure :bored:
Quelle Bordel ! ! ! :ugh: :} :ooh: (with apologies for my spelling in French)
What a bunch of blithering idiots / nincompoops & limp wristed prats inhabit the cockpits of Boeings.
Faced with a clear (?) choice of having your terms and conditions reduced year by year as a result of increasing profit, or being represented by a union whose "headline claim" was to somehow help you to find your dignity & respect (Er, we are talking simple souls here what about the money ? :ok: ) what have you , the plantlife with ATPL's chosen ? ? Duh :8 can I ask the audience ? Er no, why don't you just ask your Base Capt dolt :eek:

So, an entirely predictable non event ensued (probably :rolleyes:) courtesy of entirely unthinking /unseeing idiots in charge of Boeings, guided by greedy managers (or aspiring managers) and a somewhat feckless union campaign. Well, well done to all, thanks very much, net result in all probability the square root of f@ck all.
Thank Christ I am a generation older than the brain dead that populate the Ryanair cockpits these days.
I am ashamed of you BOH/BHD & (horror of horrors ! :mad: ) my fellow Jocks in PIK.
WTF did you have to lose ? well chaps, you are about to find out, congratulations on your choice :ok: :=

A quick question (or 2 for those anti Balpa) ......

Where do you see your T & C's / working lifestyle in 10 years if nothing changes within Ryanair?

Balpa may well not be the answer for Ryanair, but if the answer to the above question does not bare thinking about, what would help you all as a professional body?

There are clearly some great aspects to working for Ryanair, otherwise I am sure you would not be working for them (or you would stand together and try and improve conditions). Are there any procedures/agreements in place that could prevent your management from changing some of the better aspects of your job at their whim.

3 Bases with sense have voted to stop this Lemmings dash to self destruction,
Now its time for the Diehards to reconsider their positions, you are NOT going to win.
Your arguements nolonger hold weight with your colleagues, small bases though they may be, but they had a choice and made it, even without their BRK colleagues.
Shall we now see how EMA, LTN, LPL and EDI decide for example, who will be the next group to write to BALPA.

Remember its the will of the majority and that should include BRK.
Its no use having just one base voting for BALPA especially a smaller one as it WILL be closed as an example to you all.

Those with BALL's have stood up and been heard.

Maybe a deal we are quite satisfied with?

Dignity and Respect. Interesting campaign motto but I'll take Roster and Cash any day. :ok:

gatbusdriver

The answer to your questions,
1 - down the toilet
2 - union recognition.
The head of personnel in Ryanair is on record (unofficialy of course) as saying "what you guys need is a union"
The mangement are astounded, read ASTOUNDED that the pilot are so stupid, and so absolutely thick that they cannot appreciate that :confused: Jeezuz :ooh: ask EW what the pilots need . . . what does he reply ? union representation. . . how thick can people be ? ? ? :ugh:
Don't know (in fact I'm quite sure not :rolleyes: ) if what a Ryanair Boeing driver needs is somebody from the "Atlantic Barons old boys club" going into the ring with the Dublin Street Fighters that they work for. As previous posters have suggested , something a bit more "roughneck" might be in order, I don't think Lord King was a pushover , but he wasn't MOL :eek:
Too many brain dead wee laddies in FR though, and until their testicles descend nothing will happen. . . .:hmm:
Well, in life we get what we deserve, earn, and demand, don't hold your breath UK pilots, back to the DUB guys but they are already tired of fighting I suspect, apart from JG (Good on you mate :ok: )

For some reason I felt compelled to write this now and not earlier, although I've been following this thread pretty much from the beginning...

First, a little info about me so you have some understanding about where I'm coming from:

I'm 25; FR is my first airline job. Yes, I paid for the TR, got paid almost nothing whilst line training and have been sent to a base in another country with almost no choice. I've got a Uni education, so don't consider myself to be a 'brain dead wee laddie' or any other deflamatry way we have been described in previous posts.

I can see that the way we are treated (in regards to BRK contracts, their lack of protection, the full month off unpaid, almost having to turn up before the start of your official duty time in order to be able to complete all the necessary paperwork and walk the half mile to the aircraft etc etc) is poor compared to the rest of the industry. I have friends in BA, bmi, flybe, easyJet, Luxair etc, and I am very envious of the transparent way that they are all dealt with.

However, there are things I like about this company. First off, almost everyone on the line is very nice, that goes for pilots and cabin crew. The majority of Captains are fantastic to fly with, you feel you can discuss any potential situation with them or ask them why they made certain decision and you'll get a frank and honest answer. The training within the company is a high standard, as is the maintenance.

Now onto the BALPA thing.

Personally, I wouldn't vote yes to BALPA. I believe that in the short term it would be disastrous for us and I believe this is because MO'L doesn't like to be threatened. I think BALPA's first step should have just have been recognition, not this whole 'dignity and respect' campaign, as it makes us assume we don't have any to start with. From what I can see, the campaign is too ambitious too soon.

I do believe that eventually (even without BALPA) the situation will come to a head, due to the fact that in the past, most used FR as a stepping stone for a first job/upgrade, only to move on later, happy to put up with the T&Cs in the short run. With the industry the way it is now, this is no longer an option.

Now these are just my opinions, I don't profess to know everything and admit I may well be wrong. I just hope that maybe the two extremes that seem to be arguing within this thread see that their arguments are putting many off us both options!

Edited to correct some spelling...

What the...?? "Uni education" and "deflamatry" in the same sentence. No wonder management outsmarts their workers.

FR works on one basic principle: flexibility
A slightly different view on this is the closure of SOME UK bases which are not as profitable as desired, before any union recognition. If staff were unionised the closure of these bases would become a nightmare for FR. Unions would simply make FR's "flexibility" ( which has a HUGE impact on the workforce) non-existent. So apart from the threat of closure due to union recognition, there may well be some closures based on commercial decisions on the way.....so good luck to you all.
I as an outsider to FR , I WOULD have thought recognition was a good thing, but here is how it would play out. UK gets BALPA representation, FR agrees to "meet" on developing issues ( whichever those may be) sends a representatives to meetings, matter is taken back to FR who sit on it for months on end and do little about it. Eventually case goes to court, won or lost, it will be tied up in the justice system for months/years and in the meantime...pilots suffer the wrath of MOL. Looks like his will no matter what WILL be enforced and you're gonna have to suck it up! If this representation does not go ahead, I do not know how you will ever get yourselves organised and act as a one to fight for whatever issues come your way.
As someone posted earlier, this is the only way FR can operate and keep the cost of tickets down, the shareholders happy, the fat cats at the top in cigars and this can only be sustained if they maintain "flexibility". But beware, bases, WILL close if required, contracts are at present ( see BRK ) a joke ( yes I have seen them) salaries, rosters, other T&C's will continue to change to suit the FR way and there will be f@ck all the staff can do about it! I am sad to see this happen, as I stated a long time ago, this has an impact on the whole industry and I hope that other airlines ( although sinking lower and lower) will not try and compete with MOL in this race to the bottom, but I fear that as long as he gets away with it, other airlines will follow suit on some issues!
Hope it stops and soon...but hey, lets hope MOL loses the run of himself, one day he may just push it too far and this farce will end! I USED to think many moons ago Ryanair was something to be proud of, show the rest we had created something others did not and could not sustain....turns out its getting comical now and the more I read/see/talk to pilots/crews, the less pride I feel in what has been achieved by FR! :ugh:
As another poster said, if you are new, get in, suck it up, work hard, get your hours and leave IF the industry picks up in a few years and offers you that chance! If not be prepared to take whatever they throw at you!

SO in a nutshell, yes Union recognition would have screwed up the whole FR system and people would have suffered, non union recognition will maintain the FR flexibility and staff will continue to suffer! You're screwed either way!

Double standards ?!
 

According to The Real Slim Shady


er, not true old chap. I have recently flown with several F/O's from EMA or floating contractors who have worked there recently. According to several sources you and your anti union stance are well known to all of them and they confirm that you do actively engage in anti union activities in company time.


Careful, look what happened to the last guy ........


:)

Vexed - Thanks, I agree with everything you've said, this company is only flexible because we are prepared to be flexible for each other, not for management.

I think things will have to get (even) worse before they get better, as we still need that reason to drive the pilots to think collectively. Only then does BALPA have a change of recognition.

TheOtherGuy - My apologies, it should have been 'defamatory'... I guess you've never made a mistake.

aldente,

don't believe everything you hear unless it comes from the source!

But just to stop you fretting, I had the good sense to clear my " activities" with the management first, just to make certain that it wouldn't be stepping on toes, breaking any rules or cause any problems for them, or my colleagues.

So the double standard is simply the process of asking permission first and accepting the response!

And in around 49 minutes time the result of the EMA ballot will be notified to the pilots and you can rest easy in your bed tonight; unless you want to fret about LTN or BHX or BRS.

from the horses a**se!
 

Say no more my friend, you are one big old rodent! humping you do and you do it well!

A Thought
 

I have sampled postings on this thread and dare offer a suggestion: why not involve users and other interested parties in your campaign?

One contributor noted RYR policy might even qualify as a safety issue. That not only concerns SLF but anyone living upstream or downstream of runway that RYR uses. Worldwide.

After an industrial accident at the AZF chemicals plant in southern France, all manner of grassroots groupings got involved and approached local government. Local government found it useful to recognize them as leverage against AZF, a subsidiary of Total, the petroleum company. Negotiations then became trilateral: government regulators, AZF and the grassroots organizations.

On the one hand, there is the risk of killing the goose that lays the golden (well, gold-plated) paychecks, but on the other hand, if RYR personnel management is intelligent, it's an opportunity for RYR staff and users/airport area inhabitants to bond interpersonally. Which is a strategic investment in what beancounters call and sell as "goodwill".

If handled intelligently, it could evolve into a win/win/win deal.

(Feel free to bash this: I'm an English instructor at an university in rural China with a sideline in French/English translation of sociology: my concern is disinterested and am unlikely to become so much as RYR SLF. Have a great day folks!)

Come now, my little redneck chum from the mangrove swamps of the Everglades, I have around 25 minutes until the result is published, so tell me where your warped opinions come from, and what gives you the right to comment, fuelled with so much vitriol, on something that has no bearing on your existence in the shallow end of the gene pool?

Are you so short of dignity and respect that you can't rustle up a valid argument? Are you and your tub thumping hard liners incapable of producing a manifesto to explain precisely what your myriad of 1% benefits, dignity and respect aside, will be?

Or do you just need to pimp for more money to support the lunches and bunfights of BALPA HQ and the company council members?

Freebird beat me to it (and seems to have touched a raw nerve, judging by the response !) :-


Slim, not sure if "good sense" is the right phrase to use here, but doubtless the management will see you are well rewarded, either by way of a TRE job or your continued position as an ERC rep.

Never mind, as you say, it will all be over soon, and you and your other half can go out and celebrate this evening with your cabin crew friends .......


;)

Aldente,

"rewards" like that are the preserve of BALPA and BALPA CC members: the vicious and licentious soldiery don't behave in that way. It is called integrity.

Funny then, that two out of 3 of the STN ERC members are TRE's ........



:)

So, at 11:42 we had 25 mins until the 'results' were published. I could hardly contain it in my pants but so far have managed, but now nearly 2 hours later we still have no word! Do we take this to mean EMA have voted in BALPA and Slim has shot himself?!!!? :eek:

So by the end of today there is the possibility of 4 out of 10 bases voting against.

Dit - Your forgetting that on a regular ,lets say 4 sector day, you do approx 2.5 hrs work for free.1hr before departure/setting up,3 25min turnarounds and 15 mins after final sector.also delays being unpaid,now that bugs me.

Jeeeez we're approaching the 3 hour mark and still no word!! Has EMA emploded? Have BALPA been voted in and now EW has taken an uzi to the crew room? Has Slim exploded with the anticipation? Am I talking to myself?!!
Somebody, anybody, relieve the tension. The pants can't hold it much longer!!! :}:}

Interesting that Shady got permission to speak about the Unions to work "mates" during flight duties.

The permission bit must make it safer so, while another pilot without permission got the sack.

Nice bit of info for the court case.

Regarding rewards.

The two non-elected "ERC" puppets at DUB were normal line pilots before self appointment, and now they are line training captains.

No doubt will be a base captain or something up the slimy ladder before long.