You know that you are talking complete and utter rubbish. Getting people to vote on their future is intimidation? Telling them that how they vote is down to their own beliefs and conscience, that it matters not whether it is a YES or NO vote so long as they have there say?

Is that more intimidating than BALPA refusing to acknowledge the wishes of the pilots at EMA and forcing a CAC recognition application leaving us no option but to undertake a judicial review if they succeed with recognition?

No,alibaba, you consider it intimidation because you are spineless: you won't stand up and be counted as a BALPA supporter. Scared of losing your job : more chance of that if BALPA get in? Scared that someone might point out the deficiencies in your logic of paying BALPA to royally screw you over?

Not according to BALPA: they want to ignore our vote and ""engage with the BALPA pilot community". Ignore the "workers" and deal with the "members".

So the wishes of the non union workers don't come into the equation here: not that it matters in the final analysis.

BALPA will fail.......again.

How very true powdermonkey.
But truth being told, in this day an age, i'd rather still have a job and (maybe) be treated like rubbish by the management than sitting in the dole que...

Well so would I ATS, so would I.....but I got there as there was no planes for me to fly, not for any other reasons. Look I am not in FR, I have no axe to grind either way, I posted comments based on what I have been told and on what I have read here. I do not agree with intimidation of any kind whether it be management towards staff or staff to one another! I shall let you all who are directly concerned sort it out and I hope you do! I DO NOT need more peeps in my queue.
On the plus side ATS, I am getting a lovely tan! seem to have lost the pasty 4am look! :-)

Still i see no one has answered ATS' or my own question - will Balpa / pro-balpa pilots pay my salary, mortgage, living expenses when my/our base is closed and we've got no jobs??

Also will you still say Balpa was the right choice when your lining up in the dole queue?? :confused:

As ATS said, i will do whatever it takes to fight against BALPA and it damaging my career and job.

I would like to refer to my CC colleague Abusing The Sky but this is also gonna be a wider picture I will try to draw for those who are not familiar with FR or those who seem to live a happy and very provicial life in some supposedly FR "heavenly base".

The very common story of 2 FR pilots:

Cadet:
-passes the selection and has to find (often in a very few days) 28K euros to fund his training not including accomodation/food for the whole period (ground school/sim/base training)
-during line training (after safety pilot release) earns peanuts and gets thrown around all across the FR network wherever there are line trainers available (accomodation/transport/food at his own expenses)
-after passing his line check he gets a base ,a few lucky ones get the one of choice, but the majority find themselves in a foreign country where they have to settle virtually without any support whatsoever from the company.
-if they are lucky enough not to be transferred elsewhere without notice (like the VLC guys) loosing their rent deposits or having to move the whole family to another country and find an international school for their kids right in the middle of the school year then they start line flying
-line flying for an F/O consists generally of 1 or 2 days ON and 3 or 4 STBY days during which a BRK pilot makes no money but still has to be available, pay his rent, his bills, his training loans and eventually take care of his family; not unusual to find yourself flying 40 hours/month which translates into 4000 euros gross/month which becomes less than 3000 after tax (now consider paying back 28K for the type rating, probably even more for their basic training, the rent, the bills, the car park, the uniform,some sort of health insurance, a little loss of license insurance, the car,the hotel when going to the sim or when sent out of base....let alone supporting a family).
-Let's say one manages to survive (most do, FR is full of nice guys/girls who love their jobs and give it all they have to succeed) and after some years he gets his command upgrade (bonded) just to find himself on a lower payscale than the other captains for 1 year and also sent away to another base after say 3 or 4 years he had settled into the one he was operating from

Captains:

-generally arrive from other airlines (for many different reasons) with lots of experience and already typed.
-they usually get asked their preferred base but only a handful get it, the rest are sent far from home in one of the many bases to find out that they don't even have a 5/4 roster but a 5/3 like the new italian bases.
-many end up opting for a floating BRK contract and start living like gypsies (organizing their own travels/hotels/meals/transoptation) hoping that way to be able to get home more often while waiting to be finally transferred to their base of choice.
-some wait for years and are told the waiting list for their specific base is very long, just to find out for instance that a newly upgraded Captain has just been sent there
-they don't have the same problem as the F/O's with low flying hours because they easily max out the yearly limits (900 hours) and make around 130K gross which equals 6800 euros net/month (excluding car park,uniform,hotels,car,bills,mortgage,family,health insurance,loss of licence etc etc)

Both Capt's and F/O's have either a FR contract that can vary in T&C's from base to base or a BRK 5 years renewable contract that could be terminated at any time.


I am very aware of the fact that what I wrote can for some be an exaggeration but for others could also sound quite mild too; this is just to let people know that as there are people fat and happy with what they have in EMA like our colleague ATS there are also many people all across the network who are unhappy enough to look for CHANGE.
Especially when they are fully aware they are working for the most successful airline around.

It would take very little effort to make this company one of the best places to work for, the BALPA campaign is just a way to voice our concerns and hopefully the starting point of a new era in which we will be finally able to sit down with the bosses and talk both about financial growth and the well being of those who make that growth possible.

Will it be a tough game?Yes it will probably be, but it's worth trying because the alternative is the status quo.

Oh dear I'm not sure if you get it do you? :ugh:

Misleading pilots and back peddling from 10% as an argument to try and influence people will NOT get that person a get out of jail free card.

The mental and psychological reality of this act of untruth is REAL and will be burned in all pilots heads. The person involved engaged in an act of deceit to try to obtain a personal agenda which will not escape people easily. :mad:

NO not if the ballot is free, fair and confidential and free from intimidation. That's basic voting and balloting procedures and the core of what democracy is. Was this email and list obtained a valid version of democracy universally acknowledged? :confused:

I will supply the whole act so individuals can not simply select quotes and or parts while mixing in opinion for all to see:

Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 (c. 52)

Employment Relations Act 1999 (c. 26)

Paragraph 20 to 22 is what Shady refers to in Schedule A1 of the act in his last post which we will analyse later on. I ask all to read for themselves if again we are going to get selective quotes from the schedule and act combined with MISREPRESNTATION and WRONG OPNION.

So what is the 10% test? Here it is in Schedule A1 in reference to APPLICATION ONLY for recognition, of the act in paragraph 14
part 4 and 5:

At this point the CAC has satisfied that the proposed bargaining unit is passed the 10% test so can proceed with the "Application" for statuary recognition. NOT to grant it.. :ok: Important difference.

So to imply in an email that 10% of WORKERS who where MEMBERS were going to lead to full recognition by declaration to the CAC is WRONG. You see the central argument fails straight away at this conjecture.

This is by selectively quoting what is act, statute and law and mixing it with opinion which should be left to experienced professionals. Either the person doesn't understand the act in the first place or he does but is trying to portray it in a manner which benefits his own arguments. I don't think anybody has a problem with opinion but they do have a problem with MISREPRESENTED FACTS and EVIDENCE. Either innocently or with a more DECIETFUL alternative MOTIVE?

Here is part of the email in question and notice how it is act mixed with WRONG OPINION used to try and influence pilots in the base;

"In a nutshell" it is NOT the current legislation or statute far from it. The link from the 10% test for application to the CAC to "imposing" recognition is tenable and quite obvious. It is at least disgusting and something the less guided of people, not so aware of the legislation should be made aware of.

Quite understandably why should pilots be aware of the act as stands as in the end they are PROFESSIONAL PILOTS not legal eagles?

Examining paragraph 20 and 22 of Schedule A1, there is very interesting reading and from paragraph 20 onwards up to and including paragraph 29.

So what does this mean? In paragraph 22 as above, if you satisfy part 1 a and b then it leads to a declaration as in part 2, as said and has been said previously in past posts.

In part 3 it says that a ballot MUST be called if 1 a and b are not satisfied thus not leading to a declaration as in part 2. So part 3 is now in action as the conditions in part 4 are now prevalent. Slims NEW argument was that;

He/she is missing the point that they DO. Because a ballot is called as under part 3 of paragraph 22 if conditions in part 4 are evident. In other words it goes to a ballot and it is ALL WORKERS of the bargaining unit that will take a free, fair ballot and free from intimidation. In other words Democracy and Majority rule.

I do apologise for having to go through this in such detail but it is vitally important that the facts do stand. People understand how complicated this is and why you should when analysing such law undertake professional opinion as to the requirements for recognition and what it involves.

Either the person has been undertaking an act of armchair solicitor or he has been asked to engage in this email with management obtaining the information and passing it on for the person to so present which is as stated many times before MISLEADING and UNTRUTHFUL. Another question is where or why this individual tried to obtain this MISLEADING information and for what motivation?

In light of the current evidence presented I ask would you buy double glazing from this man? :cool: Would you send him round to your pensioner parents to sell shares or wares to part with their hard earned money? It is in the same realms and activity of what "Boiler Room" activity is to the stock market.

Cheep and salesman like and why all pilots in Ryanair REQUIRE professional representation.

BALPA for professionals for a long term future or live by LIES, UNTRUTHS and MISREPRESENTATION? :ok:

Your choice if colleagues or management allow you that choice if not denying you a vote?

danny, very good post. One mistake though: cadets don't pay 28K no more, no no.. it's 33K! Do we actually know where that money goes? Some will end up in RYR plc, but who owns this company called East Midlands Training Ltd? Sorry, off topic a little!

intimidation
 

I Have just recieved an intimidatory post from abusing the sky,presumably with the cooperation of her partner slim shady.i will refer it to the moderators.seems that there is no levels to which mol and his union busting management will stoop to achieve continued abuse of its workforce.

i suppose these tactics are no surprise when i think back to the time of the last union recognition vote and during our type rating we were approached by dob and told our contracts were to be back dated by some months and that we would be back paid.there was one small matter.we all had to vote against the ongoing balpa recognition campaign although we were not entitled to vote as we were not yet full time employees in the uk.sad to say,most
ignorants did vote against,because they trusted their employer and the campaign was defeated.the ironic thing is that our pay was never back dated and most of those ignorants quickly realised what happened and after a little more raping,most have now left ryanair.

repa, if:

this is scary and intimidating, then i don't know what to say.... I'm evil, pure evil i tell ya!


MWA HA HA HA HA


:ugh:

Grim, "most of those ignorants quickly realised what happened and after a little more raping,most have now left ryanair"

As i pointed out earlier - why have you not left my friend?
After 5 years of moaning on here about how bad Ryanair is, i just cant get my head around why anyone, if so unhappy at their place of work, wouldn't just leave? I mean I can understand a year, maybe 2 but 5 years of constant dislike for your job/company...are you sure your not hiding something from us..!?
Stop trying to be a martyr.

Is it actuly 33K Euro just for the type rating or is it 33K including factoring in things like accomidation and uniforms and stuff?

friend of mine has a place offered and I am so far advising him to look else where with the new contracts that are in place and costings, does not seem worht it to me anymore! thank god I joined when the Euro was 1.30 and the type a lot cheaper

I would like to make a little point about the above statement that comes up very frequently when the 2 parties clash:

1- the aim is not to loose those who dislike something but it is to change things so that more people can be a little happier and not only a few ones.

2- the way the business is run by FR also influences other businesses and some of them have also gone bust because of fierce competition by FR.
Competition is good of course, but only if fair.
And FR is often not fair at all in the way they compete and putting others out of business in such a way also restricts the chances one would have to jump ship; the whole picture has something sick to it and if you don't see it then you gotta be blind.

Abusing the sky,

I hate to tell you, but you and your nearest and dearest Slim are the "model employees" that have allowed Ryanair to do what they do best, I.E reduce their costs on YOUR back. In real terms earnings in Ryanair dropped 40 yes FOUR ZERO / FORTY % in the last 10 years (prior to the most recent "negotiations") due to the total myopia /I'm allright Jack attitude displayed so eloquently here by your good selves, that inflicts so many of your colleagues.
You don't even have the imagination to see how fragile indeed is your current cosy "comfort zone".
NEMA offers MOL a bum deal . . . . GoodBye EMA
Abusing or Slim step out of line . . . . Goodbye & Thanks (probably without the thanks) to one or both.
Try and see beyond the end of your noses, I don't entirely disagree with you that now is indeed not the best time to try and enforce some moderation on the rush to the bottom, but if earnings can be cut @ 4% a year for the last 10 very profitable (for Ryanair :hmm: ) years, when exactly will be a good time ? or you prefer to earn 40% less in another 10 years time ?
Wake up and smell the coffee (assuming you remembered to put it in your flight bag)
BTW, do the pair of you ever go to work, or does PPRuNing appear on your roster as a SD ( more like SAD but never mind)

captainplaystation,

Thank you very much for your advice but you may keep it, i don't need it.

You might want to re read my posts my dear and see that's exactly what i'm saying to those selfish ones: it's alright if you get the BALPA recognition you so want, don't care about what's going to happen to the other colleagues, be them CC, engineers and so on.
You don't entirely disagree... at least we're on the same level on something.

If you must know i am in days off and with all due respect, what i do in days off is none of your business.
I don't see you calling alibaba, mr repa, dannyalliga SAD, and they are frequent posters too:rolleyes:

Zero, still off topic (or is it?), but to answer your q?, 33K is the amount of the type rating bill, nothing else has been included in that. I have seen the new "contracts" (BRK, the DIY Ltd accounting scam) and it is (of course) less money than last year!

East Midlands says NO to BLAPA!
 

Whilst things are certainly heating up next to the EDF power station at West Burton, I think it's time everyone calmed down a bit.

The thing I can tell you about BLAPA, as an ardent observer of their cack-handed antics over the years, is that when sufficiently motivated, they fight dirty. Very dirty, in fact, as Mr. and Mrs. Shady and myself can tell you with certainly. Threatening emails are just the start of it. Measure that against what the Dim Reaper had to say about BLAPA in his petulant, little-boy-who-didn’t-get-his-own-way posting from the REPA website not so long ago, and one is left with compelling conclusions as to what really motivates their aggressive tactics now. Emphasis is mine.

The above quoted post by the Dim Reaper demonstrates that BLAPA was getting right up his nostril because, shockingly, they were taking his money and not doing anything for it. How dreadful! How unheard of! How BLAPA.

As regular readers will no doubt know, Dim Reaper is not the sharpest tool in the Ryanair shed, but a tool nonetheless. He's prone to bouts of delightfully unrestrained grumpiness, and is possessed of the sort of charm and wit usually found in dockside pubs around midnight. Nevertheless, he does provide a useful lightning rod with which to test the mettle of BLAPA.

Nowadays, of course, BLAPA have been thrust into action, but not because they give a fiddlers :mad: about the Dim Reaper, or any other Ryanair pilot for that matter, but rather, because they're broke as a badger and desperately need the funds of Ryanair pilot memberships in order to survive. Hence the stony silence that came with the suggestion that they should represent us for free as a special joining bonus for new members. Heck, even I would sign up for that deal.

Some folks think it reasonable to conclude that BLAPA will support you if ever you get into strife professionally. Demonstrably wrong, I'm afraid, and documented to the heavens too. BLAPA cast a cold eye over each case on its merits whenever some miscreant pilot comes crying to them, and will only fight the fights that satisfy their selection criteria. First, that they have a better than two thirds chance of winning, and second, that the win will provide them with the maximum limelight possible thereby achieving, thirdly, an increase their revenues. Ask an ex-Danair pilot what they think of BLAPA, or a GSS first officer, or find out just why it is that Slim and I are so vocal in our opposition to this devious, cancerous organization of malicious dimwits, and you will quickly learn, as we have, that BLAPA are all dick and no trouser.

Other folk may have swallowed the bull!!!! that their lives lack dignity and respect, and who wouldn't want that, right? The trouble is that BLAPA don't own the exclusive distribution rights to those particular commodities. Dignity and Respect come from within. For those that think you lack it, take a close look in the mirror. You'll find it there soon enough.

On June 23rd, ten(!) identical letters from the head Scotsman of BLAPA were received at our London office. In our reply, the head of the personnel section accurately recorded the rather telling observation that BLAPA spend much more on Montrachet and Lobster dinners for their own henchmen, than they do on fighting the legal battles of pilots they're supposed to represent, whenever they get into trouble. When you crunch the numbers, this means that BLAPA are at least 2.49 times more interested in using your membership fees to fund their champagne socialist lifestyles and final salary pension scheme, than they are in supporting the pilots they claim to represent! Value for money you think? I don’t.

Moreover, I can assure you, dear colleagues, that the battle lines if drawn, will have terrible consequences. This is not a threat, as BLAPA would have you believe, but rather, I know full well the nature of the dog we have in the fight, and can assure you that he will take no prisoners in demonstrating the strength of his will and the depth of his resolve in this matter.

Say, for the sake of argument, that one of the 'L' bases in the UK were to be closed as a business decision. Not an unlikely scenario in the current economic climate, especially as winter draws near, and a winter like no other before it. Say, hypothetically, that all the permanent employees in those bases were to become surplus to requirements and discharged. Pilots, flight attendants, engineers, ground staff, handling agents and all. Routes would still be served at those bases, but hundreds of pilots would be on the dole queue with no other airlines recruiting.

The BLAPA apologists would have you believe this is a price worth paying in the long run, and that a little pain is worthwhile in the broader scheme of things. They will salute you for your courage in taking a bullet for the regiment, they will praise your bravery on high for standing up to the tyrant Mandrake of Mullingar, but what they will NOT do, is support you financially, fraternally or professionally, in any way at all. The money will disappear from your bank account, regular as clockwork, the Montrachet and Château Latour will continue to flow at BLAPA HQ, and you, my dear colleagues, will still be unemployed, holding you dicks, with nothing but BLAPA stickers as a memento to their uselessness.

I can appear here ad nauseam (tr. to sickness) pointing out that BLAPA are the bunch of gutless cowards and purveyors of third-world bull!!!! that I know them to be. I can point out endless examples of their deception, threats, outright lies and highly selective affections that define them, but in the final analysis it all boils down to this. Are you, the professional Ryanair pilot, prepared to have your lives changed forever by a devious, self-aggrandising organisation that will result in base closures, wholesale dismissals and a demonstration of will that will shock you to your core?

It isn't BLAPA recognition that concerns me, since it’s rather like being savaged by a three-legged, gold-toothed rat, but rather, it is the consequences of them knocking at the door that I fear, and not for myself but for my colleagues yet to learn the truth about BLAPA. Ladies and gentlemen, we have nothing to gain from them, and everything to lose.

Thank you ATS, you reminded me of the issue of days off/ annual leave.

While you are enjoying happy off days in sunny EMA there are hundreds of pilots who are on unexpectedly allocated A/L, or on their month off maybe following a 40hrs flying month leaving them with 2000euros to spend in 60 days (you can imagine the kind of holiday you can afford) and I'm not gonna mention those (and they exist I can assure you) who had their 10 days A/L in a 20hrs flying month follwed by a month off leaving them virtually broke for 2 months with bills to pay and expected to enjoy their holidays????

There many things that should change in FR and those who pretend everything is ok and are afraid of their own shadows are definitely not helping the cause.

danny,

We have written facts as we ( i.e me and you ) see them. We have repeated ourselves time and time again. Everyone came up with facts, figures, scenarios, own views.
This debate will take ages to come to an end. You have your opinion on the BALPA matter in discussion and i have mine. Neither of us is going to change it so i propose we wait and see what happens.

You're fighting for your cause, i fight for mine.

As an obvius outsider to the Ryanair situation, but a BALPA EZY member, reading this thread, I can see two very obvious points sticking out in the wind here.

Leo Hairy ****, obviously a management glove puppet, with someones hand up his ar$e working his mouth goes on about base closures and other threats based on "business" decisions. All airline management are the same at their sick little core and if just one of you believes that any airline management board would keep a non-profitable base open as some sort of a thank-you for not joining a union then you all deserve your fate with your rancid mouthed **** at the helm. If they are to close, the will close, the question for you is if my base closes who do I trust to try and look after my interests best? Whose interest do you think MOL has in his void where a heart should be?

Second thing that strikes me, clearly with all the tripe spouting from the management puppets on here about BALPA, along with the threats Ryanair are scared of BALPA recognition, if they were not, why all the effort to make you afraid of growing a spine? Why do you think that is, and don't look to Hairy tw@t face for an honest answer to that, you know fine well he has one intent, to undermine your efforts for recognition, again, why? If BALPA are no threat, why? If they are under no obligation other than to turn up to meetings with BALPA, why? If bases close and transfer lists freeze is that BALPA that imposes that? So WHY does BALPA recognition make base closures, transfer freezes and no promotions necessary? WHY?

Are BALPA perfect? No? Do BALPA charge a 1% of salary fee? Yes. Have they improved or retained lifestyle at EZY - Yes, without doubt, could they have done better? probably, would we be in a better place without them? Of course not.

Let MOL go run some 3rd world sweatshop making Nike running shows or the like, his talents are clearly what these places thrive on.

Best of luck to all the Ryanair guys, such bullying and intimidation from your management need not be tolerated in silence any more, you are all worth more than that, now have the courage and conviction to tell your dictators that and let battle commence, and a battle it will be, but if one single job is lost due to Union recognition, the that case will have to be proven in a court, and that IS a battle BALPA will fight and win.

As for BALPA only fighting the battles it can win, you will see that it fought and LOST a major battle with BA over open skies, but fight it did, until defeat was declared. Hairy Camel Tw@t will tell you that is why they need your subs to replace the cash spent on that fight, and at the sametime he will tell you that BALPA will only fight the fights it can win, either way don't expect a coherent response from those with O'Leary's fingers gripping their gentlemans' area!:yuk:

Hear Hear Lhc
 

Well done Leo: putting the sensible case forward as usual.

We don't need hotheads, banging their drums, tubs and tambourines from behind the safety of the mother's aprons, encouraging others to sacrifice themselves on the slopes of the hills at Wicklow.

We need a calm analysis of the situation: why would BALPA start a campaign when other companies are laying people off? Why not concentrate on helping them? Why step in to a battle unarmed? Why not respect the wishes of the workers ( alibaba, whether you and your BALPA masters like it or not, pilots are resigning the BALPA whip and voting - and prepared my friend, unlike you, to put their names to their views - overwhelmingly against recognition).

You can disagree with my views, Leo's views, Day dreamer, bonglebear...any one of us: what you can't argue with is the level of support that exists against BALPA.

The cries of the militants who spout off about "management puppets / stooges" perpetuate the ethos of Red Robbo and Scargill: look where that got British Leyland and the mining industry. Look what it did to the Miner's Union.

It is not a "them and us" situation; when Sabena went bust the management went too. When Laker and Dan Air went so did the managers; you really should look beyond the end of your noses.

Yes ATS, I fight for the cause of many of us pilots who would like things to change.
There is a pilot union that we hope will help us in the process , there is a plan in place in order to start the recognition process, there has been an audit between FR pilots made by BALPA to understand our viewpoints and feelings for the company, many of us have their own ideas and suggestions on how to improve both the economics and the working standards...to cut a long story short many pilots are actively involved in this and hope that in a couple of years from now we could finally be over with this whole issue and work in a different environment than the one we aer in today.

Obviously for you everything is fine and I hope it will always be, unfortunately for many of us things are not fine at all.


But I agree with you, let's wait and see.

One thing though I would like to ask you: please look at FR not only as your shiny (in your opinion) EMA base but consider there are other 32 of them spread around; try to see the bigger picture instead of your little backyard.

leo selective quotations from me would hardly be grounds on which to adopt or drop a campaign of any sort.frustration at time has led me to lash out but this time we are organised and in pursuit of change.you and your chums from ema are not going to stop it.

dignity and respect do come from within but can be influenced to the good or bad from without.we will improve it from without.you might even pick some up yourself.

May I ask one final question, requiring as simple an answer as possible? So far in all the threads something is not quite clear.......and again may I say I am NOT in FR and this is purely out of interest for the industry.

To all those in the anti-union camp posting on this thread:

Is base closure and job loss threats your ONLY reason for being anti representation? APART from that, what are your real concerns over representation? What do you think BALPA involvement will NEGATIVELY do to FR? What do you feel, in general, across the industry is bad in a united workforce? It is obvious why management despise unions, but why the staff body? Please no angry responses, just clear answers...so far all I read is "dont join BALPA they do nothing for you"! well if so, then their involvement is no concern but if they DO have power, how will that power negatively affect the staff?

Powdermonkey,
I love my base. It was first choice, 20 min from my home, family, friends. Great colleagues, all new a/c, great routes....etc. It will close if Balpa are recognised.
I love my job for 1000 and 1 reasons. I will probably loose my job if Balpa are recognised, if not then i will loose my allowances, my 5/4 roster, my leave allowance will be altered, if im not sacked then ill be shipped off to another base (see above why i dont want that).
Those are just two aspects of how Balpa will negatively affect staff. Not forgetting, the cabin crew, engineers, ground staff....etc that will loose their jobs. At my base thats around (incl pilots) 400 staff at least. At one base.
The only power Balpa would have is to "negotiate" with Ryanair, who have already stated they will not negotiate. So the next step Balpa could ask us all to strike...and then the same thing happens - base closures, redundancies....etc.
The fact is Balpa have just said "Join us and we will change something somewhere at sometime, possibly, maybe"
They have not said what they can and will do. I know that "balpa is you" as people keep saying - but those people who have organised this campaign have not said what we are exactly fighting for. Dignity and respect - i have plenty of that. That means nothing to me in terms of what Balpa could achieve. If Balpa could say to us "we will achieve XXXXX" then they would have a few more supporters. However all we see daily is Balpa failing to achieve anything. Just ask Dan-air pilots, BA guys...etc The unemployment list seems to be growing.
Neither I nor any of my fellow pilots at my base want to be in that queue.
The sooner Balpa is rejected the better.

CommandB....
I fully understand the fears of every staff member not to mention all other indirect employees who benefit from the Ryanair footfall. So ALL this is PURELY based on reprisals if the staff don't play the FR way!
Essentially......no matter what FR decide to do in terms of workforce management / renumeration in the future, you guys will just have to suck it up or leave, but you will never be in a position to fight your corner!
:ouch:
Only one winner here, the shareholder! Things may be within an acceptable bracket for you guys now.....but the likely hood is it may just not be worth it in the near/far future!

The majority of us were completely happy with the job before this Balpa stuff started. Obviously there are always, in any job, going to be 1 or 2 people who dislike the way the place is run. However, as in any previous jobs I have had, those people have walked away and found other jobs which they prefer. Seems to me like thats what you do if you dislike something....? So the question remains why dont people do exactly that?

Also, in any job, if you dont do what the company wants - you are disciplined, so to speak. This is the way it works. If an EZY pilot disregards the company rules, he will be taken for tea and biscuits. Same at BA, same at FR. So yes, the reprisals from Ryanair are somewhere up there on my list of why I dont want recognition. But it goes ALOT further than that and of course it is not totally based on what RYR have said.

To put it bluntly -
Balpa in Ryanair = job losses for 1000's of people.
Id prefer to keep mine.

"but you will never be in a position to fight your corner" -> As i said at the start - the majority of us are happy with what we have and we certainly dont want Balpa "negotiating" redundancies for us like they have done so well for other airlines.

CommandB,
OK, so let me see if I have this correct.

Your base is only going to close if BALPA are recognised? There is no compelling financial or business reason for your base to close; the closure of the base will only occure if the pilots democratically vote to have a basic right recognised?

Please tell me if I have misunderstood the situation.

If the situation is as described then it really defies belief that there are so many blind to what management are up to.

I get it and of course employees must play by company rules, as pilots, we always ( mostly) observe the rules! The general point I was making was this:

there may come a day in the near future whereby you will NOT be happy with conditions imposed on you....lets say your 1 month off becomes 2...or maybe 3...and as is the case with some, not all, the current months off are very close to consecutive...followed by too many standbys ( see large bases with line training periods) and now the way of life you have is no longer very manageable, and you are forced to find bar work for 2 months ( actually happening in current climate). Will you then just say, Ah well thems are the rule, better start knocking on doors....and we all know how difficult that is!
If that is so, all the best...but I can't EVER see FR and the way they operate say, you know what, we have loads of money, lets reward our hard working staff! As long as money can be saved/gained by squeezing the workforce, and continuelly moving the goal post, it WILL continue as long as everyone accepts it.
IT IS MY GENERAL VIEW, and I fully admit I may be mistaken, as I am only observing this..but it kinda looks that way to me. I SINCERELY hope that any reduction in hours/pay/condition are based on current economics and making sure that these conditions are imposed solely for the benefit of all and the continued success of FR.....but I really don't think that management has yours or any other employees best interest at heart!

Base Closures
 

GUYS! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!
Closing bases or not has absolutely nothing to do with BALPA recognition or not. Its an excellent threat, because obviously FR have closed bases before. However, what most people here don't seem to understand is that MOL might be running the show, but he is not in charge. The SHAREHOLDERS are the people in charge. Picture MOL telling the shareholders he is closing all the bases in the UK.... You think they would agree..... After all, I would say that the UK bases are probably the ones bringing in the most cash to FR.

commandb - what is your basis for your wildly speculative remarks.do you think that ryanair is only keeping the base open for your benefit.surely in ryanairs model,if the base is profitable it stays open,if not then it must close.i cannot se where your immature and irrational reckoning comes from.
you say,if balpa recognised then 100's of job losses,so is that then true that ryanair is only profitable and able to make a profit because pilots have no voice,input.your irrational reasoning assumes that balpa and the pilots in ryanair have no positive contribution to make to the success of their company.have more confidence in your abilities and if ryanair ever do close that base,i hope that it won't tip you over the edge.you and the slim/abusing wonder team seem to think that the world stops outside your base.go for a walk this evening,you won't fall of the face of the planet.

Just a simple question to all the management clowns here: if the company decides to close a base (which they won't do of course, but that's the best these moppets have come up with), would the airport not have a case in suing RYR for breach of contract? On one hand publicly blame the £10 tax, internally blaming BALPA? Sounds like a no brainer to me.. arm the airport's lawyers with a selection of the EW,DOB and PB's documents, job done! And that's a few millions gone then. Not to mention the loss of pax to ezy or other. How are they going to justify themselves here? It just blows my mind how any pilot can believe any of this. And please all the June/July '09 union-busting joiners spare me the "we are going to lose a 1000 jobs, get fired, the sick mother story and the poor engineers". What if this was all a bluff, smoke, just to keep a few crapping themselves? Big mistake if you ask me! Should I mention these tactics lack any morality? Silly me..

TRSS, Leo and all the "I'm all right Jack" clique are working hard at dragging the debate around base closures and alleged job losses in a company that is forecasting 300M profit this year and has orders for another 100 Boeings. Let's get this back on the subject of recognition, true negotiations between management and pilots. To be recognized as professionals who have their say in the t&c's. Let the majority democratically decide if they want to stop the downward spiral. Let's keep the kids who have just borrowed 33K (and the rest) the choice between permanent or contractor. No setting up a dodgy Ltd company in EI controlled by a few obscure accountants. A transparent pay scale, an A/L system that is fair and tranparent. The few hardcore company defenders do not represent the majority of pilots. As for the 2 moppets mentioned above they are just looking after no1, show management how good boys they are at a**-licking to safeguard there own future.. Let me guess Leo, you probably are "floating" BRK paid at the "old" brk rate, what would you care if a base closed? And TRSS, you'll be all right Jack, with all that good work I bet you EMT will have a vacant position for you.. good boy. Won't lose your job or base after all, hey? Pathetic!

Isn't it possible to close a base and keep flying there from other bases?

And I would be surprised if there were any longterm contracts with airports. One of the stronger points of Ryanair has always been their ability to give up bases and under that pressure negotiate better terms.

If MOL can keep Balpa out by temporarily closing UK bases and forcing out all brookfield pilots he can keep ryanair's financial position strong without being slowed down by unions like BA currently is.

I think he'll take up the challenge. Worst that can happen is a penalty fee by some government or law institute which he can pay easily. That's aside from the fact that he probably has seen this coming and covered all his contracts pretty well.

Believing that this won't happen is probably as naive as believing that you won't need a union in the future. Since only the UK bases are voting, I wouldn't be surprised that they're going to prefer their short term future in favor of their long future, which they probably won't have if balpa gets in.

It's a bad situation.

djanello - anything is possible.but to foresake balpa recognition on this basis is pure foolishness.why would a base be closed solely because the company is obliged by law to negotiate with it's employees,in the case of union recognition?these threats by management which have been believed by the more gullible and immature amonst us are the last desperate measure of an employer who knows that if ryanair pilots gain representation,then the company will have to shelve out money to better terms and conditions of the pilot group and in turn the cabin crew.everything in ryanair comes back to money and if balpa were going to lead to further cuts in pilots terms and conditions,then they would be welcomed with open arms.the jump from this to swingeing job cuts and base closures,is pure fantasy and supposition.threats,mere threats with no evidence to back them up.

nonsense!!!

Grim, not arguing with you buddy.
Just dont know why you've not left 5 years ago if you hate it that much. And you've still not answered that question...?

As for my "immature and irrational reckoning" - all I can say is that it is a difference of opinion between us. Ive put just some my points across for not wanting Balpa, just as you have for wanting Balpa. I may say that I find your opinion "immature and irrational." However I can look outside the box (and my base, thank you) and understand people are intitled to their own opinions. Whereas you jump on anyone who disagrees with you with a barrage of petulent abuse.
Well you do not intimidate me, call me what you like I can assure you it wont hurt! :ok:

See any similarities to Ryanair management behaviour? :ooh:

commandb,

your reasons for not wanting to accept BALPA seem to be based on the fear of your base being closed. Could you answer the question I posed?

G-AWZK

Yes sir, one of them. I of course understand if a base isnt making money it would be closed however my base is doing very well.
We have been told - as have other bases - that the base will be closed to stop the spread of unions...etc. If Ryanair were to close all the UK bases, Balpa having recognition will effectively be rendered useless so I guess this is why MOL will do it. Look to be honest, nothing anyone says on here will change peoples minds about the whole situation. If you are of anti or pro union - pprune isnt going to change that!
Ive said all I wanted to say on this whole matter on here now.
Lets see what happens over the next few months!

commandb - i cannot recall saying i hate working in ryanair,correct me if i am wrong.why should i run away?i believe that it is better to fight and strive,than leave and let other make the sacrifice or do the work i can do.no martyrdom intended.if i see a bully in the park,i do not turn away.why would i?as i have said before,i will be here long after many of the management stooges.i will fight and i have indeed already won,i do not FEAR the UNION BUSTER!!!
i do not intend to intimidate you,quite the contrary.i wish you to keep posting as you are the one of the greatest advertisements for union recognition along with slim/abusing.

where is the evidence of mass base closures and job losses in ryanair related to union recognition?

That is unbelievable :eek:

I knew that Ryanair were lacking in morals, but this is beyond the pale. You are correct that PPRuNe will never change the juggernaut that is Ryanair management, but they are obviously terrified of union recognition. Ever stopped to wonder why?

The problem is other companies will be watching to see if they get off with this, and if they do you can be sure that other companies will follow suit.

Your management has already worked hard on the divide and conquer tactics, but don't you think that it is a rather odd company that threatens to close profitable bases just because the workforce asks for a legal right?

The problem I can see is that if Ryanair are allowed to do this then it has ramifications throughout the European aviation industry. Think outside the box, guys.

Really, it is time to show this arrogant MOL a united pilot group, who is able to fight back! money against money!! Thats the only way he understands.

STOP the slavery of aviation!!! NOW!!!

Shame on you Mr OL, showing no respect to your fellow employees, it is time FOR CHANGE!!!