RYANAIR thoughts
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RYANAIR thoughts
Hi everyone,
I'm a continental Europe based Ryanair pilot, I'm not a native english speaker so my apologies for the many mistakes I will surely make.
Yesterday the company has put out a document in which they officially freeze every promotion and base transfer for all UK bases and in which they also threaten winter time schedule reductions , forced unpaid leave and even job cuts as they review their UK strategies.
They have mentioned a few causes: the economical downturn,the weakeness of the Sterling, the UK tourist tax and also the BALPA recognition campaign.
Now it's obviously a well thought document with which the company has started its war against their pilots and their need for a single voice with the usual threats, terror tactics, psychological warfare and all those nice things that are so dear to the Ryanair management.
On the other hand , in the same document, they write they will invest in other European countries where the business climate is more favorable; in itself not a bad thing but it sounds so explicitly just like another way of dividing the pilot community in UK and non UK based in this case.In past disputes it was Dublin and non Dublin based and other cases of division tactics along the same lines.
One thing they don't mention though is that there are around 220 cadets about to start training, not exactly a move in line with a period of crisis unless they will freeze them as well and let them go just after their self sponsored training since the company should already have a surplus of pilots according to their statements.
In my opinion it would be interesting to know how many pilots voted in favour of the recognition because if it turned out that the majority voted yes it means people are not satisfied with the present status and a wise leader would deal with the problem instead of denying it or even worse fighting against those who ask for changes; in a democracy that is of course.
Even a child can understand that the absence of any sort of opposition can make RYR managemet's life much easier so that they can take whatever decisions they deem necessary for their own and their share holders' benefit.
If those decisions happen to be taken in fortunate times then maybe the workforce can also benefit from it but when things start to be nasty then you can find yourself having to move from Valencia with your whole family without any notice nor the slightest sort of support from the company or find yourself based in a foreign country with 3 or 4 consecutive standby days making zero money on a BRK contract because the self sponsored cadets are occupying your seat costing the company nothing not to mention unwanted and last minute allocated annual leave and many many other examples of 3rd world country employee treatment.
In many cases we don't have a 5/4 but a 2/7 roster with plenty of unwanted and unpaid standby days, so the threat of going 5/2 for some could even mean good news as long as they can fly and afford paying their bills.
Bottomline is that the majority of the guys are not really happy with how things are going in RYR and this BALPA recognition initiative is just a way to oppose a stubborn management that never ever asks your opinion about anything and just makes decisions that people have to accept without having any right to speak up.
Now it seems that with its latest move the company wants to isolate our UK colleagues and I wouldn't be surprised if they were to tour the european bases even offering a couple of pennies more or a few long awaited base transfers just to divide the pilot community even further or just extending their threats to peripherical bases where the BALPA campaign is not supported by local laws and where psychological terrorism can be easily perpetrated without consequences.
I would also like to look ahead and imagine the airline in a few years from now: the plan is to grow to approximately 300 aircraft, we already have 200 so the expansion should last another 2 or 3 years where hundreds of cadets will find a job here and tens of senior F/O's will have the chance to upgrade to Captains...and then what?Once the airline has estabilished itself and internal growth inevitably slows or even stops how will we deal with our everyday issues?
The pilot community will grow older and those who once were 20 years old cadets will be 30 years old senior F/O's with a long way to upgrade ,what will then be the criteria if everyone will have the experience but there will be no seniority to go by?How will we deal with the fact that there is a surplus of F/O's because of the hundreds of self sponsored cadets who joined in previous years?How will we deal with the unfair fact that there are plenty of different contracts and T&C for the same job?How will we deal with the huge number of contract pilots whose deals last no longer than 5 years making their jobs less secure than those of the permanent guys?
As a last thought i would like to say that I sincerely believe that Ryanair has all the potential to become a leader not only in number of passengers carried or business value for its share holders but also a first class company to work for if only the management understood that they are dealing with human beings and not with puppets just like Southwest is there to prove.
I hope that the majority of the Ryanair pilots will open their eyes and stick together this time regardless of their nationality, contract, base and personal views of BALPA because this could be the last chance for all of us to show those in charge that we are not fat and happy as they like to picture us but that we are concerned about the future of our jobs and the quality of our lives and demand an active and constructive role in the growth of our company.
I also hope that BALPA will be wise enough and take this whole recognition issue well outside the UK borders because this is the first european battle of this kind and the more international it becomes the stronger the support will be as well as the media coverage.
Good luck to all of us.
I'm a continental Europe based Ryanair pilot, I'm not a native english speaker so my apologies for the many mistakes I will surely make.
Yesterday the company has put out a document in which they officially freeze every promotion and base transfer for all UK bases and in which they also threaten winter time schedule reductions , forced unpaid leave and even job cuts as they review their UK strategies.
They have mentioned a few causes: the economical downturn,the weakeness of the Sterling, the UK tourist tax and also the BALPA recognition campaign.
Now it's obviously a well thought document with which the company has started its war against their pilots and their need for a single voice with the usual threats, terror tactics, psychological warfare and all those nice things that are so dear to the Ryanair management.
On the other hand , in the same document, they write they will invest in other European countries where the business climate is more favorable; in itself not a bad thing but it sounds so explicitly just like another way of dividing the pilot community in UK and non UK based in this case.In past disputes it was Dublin and non Dublin based and other cases of division tactics along the same lines.
One thing they don't mention though is that there are around 220 cadets about to start training, not exactly a move in line with a period of crisis unless they will freeze them as well and let them go just after their self sponsored training since the company should already have a surplus of pilots according to their statements.
In my opinion it would be interesting to know how many pilots voted in favour of the recognition because if it turned out that the majority voted yes it means people are not satisfied with the present status and a wise leader would deal with the problem instead of denying it or even worse fighting against those who ask for changes; in a democracy that is of course.
Even a child can understand that the absence of any sort of opposition can make RYR managemet's life much easier so that they can take whatever decisions they deem necessary for their own and their share holders' benefit.
If those decisions happen to be taken in fortunate times then maybe the workforce can also benefit from it but when things start to be nasty then you can find yourself having to move from Valencia with your whole family without any notice nor the slightest sort of support from the company or find yourself based in a foreign country with 3 or 4 consecutive standby days making zero money on a BRK contract because the self sponsored cadets are occupying your seat costing the company nothing not to mention unwanted and last minute allocated annual leave and many many other examples of 3rd world country employee treatment.
In many cases we don't have a 5/4 but a 2/7 roster with plenty of unwanted and unpaid standby days, so the threat of going 5/2 for some could even mean good news as long as they can fly and afford paying their bills.
Bottomline is that the majority of the guys are not really happy with how things are going in RYR and this BALPA recognition initiative is just a way to oppose a stubborn management that never ever asks your opinion about anything and just makes decisions that people have to accept without having any right to speak up.
Now it seems that with its latest move the company wants to isolate our UK colleagues and I wouldn't be surprised if they were to tour the european bases even offering a couple of pennies more or a few long awaited base transfers just to divide the pilot community even further or just extending their threats to peripherical bases where the BALPA campaign is not supported by local laws and where psychological terrorism can be easily perpetrated without consequences.
I would also like to look ahead and imagine the airline in a few years from now: the plan is to grow to approximately 300 aircraft, we already have 200 so the expansion should last another 2 or 3 years where hundreds of cadets will find a job here and tens of senior F/O's will have the chance to upgrade to Captains...and then what?Once the airline has estabilished itself and internal growth inevitably slows or even stops how will we deal with our everyday issues?
The pilot community will grow older and those who once were 20 years old cadets will be 30 years old senior F/O's with a long way to upgrade ,what will then be the criteria if everyone will have the experience but there will be no seniority to go by?How will we deal with the fact that there is a surplus of F/O's because of the hundreds of self sponsored cadets who joined in previous years?How will we deal with the unfair fact that there are plenty of different contracts and T&C for the same job?How will we deal with the huge number of contract pilots whose deals last no longer than 5 years making their jobs less secure than those of the permanent guys?
As a last thought i would like to say that I sincerely believe that Ryanair has all the potential to become a leader not only in number of passengers carried or business value for its share holders but also a first class company to work for if only the management understood that they are dealing with human beings and not with puppets just like Southwest is there to prove.
I hope that the majority of the Ryanair pilots will open their eyes and stick together this time regardless of their nationality, contract, base and personal views of BALPA because this could be the last chance for all of us to show those in charge that we are not fat and happy as they like to picture us but that we are concerned about the future of our jobs and the quality of our lives and demand an active and constructive role in the growth of our company.
I also hope that BALPA will be wise enough and take this whole recognition issue well outside the UK borders because this is the first european battle of this kind and the more international it becomes the stronger the support will be as well as the media coverage.
Good luck to all of us.
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Interesting points.
i don’t see how the management can expect to be taken seriously when they're still trying to recruit hundreds of new FOs for all the new planes apparently coming, while threatening to fire people next winter because things are supposedly looking a bit tight.
i think trying to bully and corral the uk pilots will push them towards balpa, because being sent threatening memos every week is pretty rubbish - so keeping the status quo doesn’t seem to offer a long term solution.
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I 100% agree! Ryanair UK or non UK pilots, now it's time to be all together!
I don't think thery are going to fire people... because most of the pilots are BRK... that means, if they don't fly, they cost nothing!
A BRK pilot who don't fly get no money, as simple as that!
I think that MOL wishes to play that game, let him see what pilots can do...
He could be affraid from loosing Captain, No captain, No flight, No money for HIM!
And there is not so much CPT on this market to fill the B738 fleet left seat.
CPTs can fight easily for all RYR pilots...
Think about that, it could be great to work with RYR if ever we have some recognition: Pension, social, free ticketing, and to be consider as Human being.
while threatening to fire people next winter
A BRK pilot who don't fly get no money, as simple as that!
I think that MOL wishes to play that game, let him see what pilots can do...
He could be affraid from loosing Captain, No captain, No flight, No money for HIM!
And there is not so much CPT on this market to fill the B738 fleet left seat.
CPTs can fight easily for all RYR pilots...
Think about that, it could be great to work with RYR if ever we have some recognition: Pension, social, free ticketing, and to be consider as Human being.
a**
I start wondering if this is a safety issue?
Pilots are being bullied by management, who scare their workforce in coming to work, BRK pilots reporting for duty since they'll otherwise won't get any salary, or the shocking story of the captain who doesn't tell FR his son passed away in fear of getting sacked.
How about everybody giving their own little example and then hopefully a journo will pick it up. Maybe a bit of PR, either good or bad, probably bad for FR will get the union ball rollling a little bit quicker.
Pilots are being bullied by management, who scare their workforce in coming to work, BRK pilots reporting for duty since they'll otherwise won't get any salary, or the shocking story of the captain who doesn't tell FR his son passed away in fear of getting sacked.
How about everybody giving their own little example and then hopefully a journo will pick it up. Maybe a bit of PR, either good or bad, probably bad for FR will get the union ball rollling a little bit quicker.
Alycidon,
Everybody can join, as long as your airline recognizes BALPA as a union.
I work for a pan European company, am based in mainland Europe, but a BALPA member.
There are also quite a few people who are a member of the local unions. These local unions are in close contact with BALPA and everybody in my company who is a union member is represented irrespective of what union they have joined through something which in my company is called the European Pilot Group.
And yes, BALPA is the way forward, I doesn't bear thinking about what would have happened here if we wouldn't have had them!
Everybody can join, as long as your airline recognizes BALPA as a union.
I work for a pan European company, am based in mainland Europe, but a BALPA member.
There are also quite a few people who are a member of the local unions. These local unions are in close contact with BALPA and everybody in my company who is a union member is represented irrespective of what union they have joined through something which in my company is called the European Pilot Group.
And yes, BALPA is the way forward, I doesn't bear thinking about what would have happened here if we wouldn't have had them!
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From my past experience and observations, from within or outside : act now, altogether, under one flag or........you're ****** 5 years down the road and your lives WILL be a misery. WhatEVER threats, official or not, between the lines or clearly expressed, you will always be stronger together than divided. You will always gain more (lose less) sticking together. Don't take your fate like cattle waiting to get slaughtered.
From what I hear about what's happening to Ryanair pilots at the moment, and drawing the curve for another 4 to 5 years, you'll all be working in fear at the mercy of any new foolish idea coming to "their" deranged minds.
Don't just wait ! Act !
From what I hear about what's happening to Ryanair pilots at the moment, and drawing the curve for another 4 to 5 years, you'll all be working in fear at the mercy of any new foolish idea coming to "their" deranged minds.
Don't just wait ! Act !
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Yes you can join BALPA even if not a UK resident, they have some sort of specific membership for foreign residents (by the way very cheap).
Every Ryanair pilot regardless of nationality and base can anonimously support the recognition campaign, please find the specific link below and pass it on to our fellow colleagues:
https://www.balpa.org/getdoc/a98486c...rPetition.aspx
Every Ryanair pilot regardless of nationality and base can anonimously support the recognition campaign, please find the specific link below and pass it on to our fellow colleagues:
https://www.balpa.org/getdoc/a98486c...rPetition.aspx
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Just wondering, does BALPA have the ability to set up a message board for the Ryan Air pilots that can be a little less public? just asking as you never know. Management might try to ID someone and single you out for some "special treatment". maybe one of your own computer geeks can set one up and the try to screen legitimate FR guys to join. It's not BALPA or any other union that will make a difference it's the FR pilot's that will make it work for you. It'll be a lot of hard work and dedication. Just remember there's never been a management type that's tried to get a burning desk on the ground in crap weather.
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Just wondering, does BALPA have the ability to set up a message board for the Ryan Air pilots that can be a little less public?
REPA - Ryanair European Pilots' Association
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Hi guys,
Having spoken to a fairly senior member of the Ryanair team about this recently, it has become obvious to me that unless all of the FR pilots in every base across Europe join BALPA (which Im afraid I can't see happening), BALPA will not win this. By the sound of it MOL would probably not hesitate in cutting back the operations in the UK just to stop this campaign, such is the anti-union stance of Ryanair management. Knowing thier tacticks, they'd probably maintain a similar amount of flights to/from the UK, just have the a/c based in Europe. Ryanair has a history of not backing down on its threats, so if they say they are going to close a base, they do etc...
While I support the idea of union recognition, I can't see this working, which is sad. And if I was comming up for my command up-grade and was uk based right now, I'd be quite upset. I know this post isn't much help, Im just trying to face facts.
Having spoken to a fairly senior member of the Ryanair team about this recently, it has become obvious to me that unless all of the FR pilots in every base across Europe join BALPA (which Im afraid I can't see happening), BALPA will not win this. By the sound of it MOL would probably not hesitate in cutting back the operations in the UK just to stop this campaign, such is the anti-union stance of Ryanair management. Knowing thier tacticks, they'd probably maintain a similar amount of flights to/from the UK, just have the a/c based in Europe. Ryanair has a history of not backing down on its threats, so if they say they are going to close a base, they do etc...
While I support the idea of union recognition, I can't see this working, which is sad. And if I was comming up for my command up-grade and was uk based right now, I'd be quite upset. I know this post isn't much help, Im just trying to face facts.
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as17,
yes you look at the facts NOW, try to visualize what's behind the corner and not just what you see in front of you...just like you would be required to do during your command upgrade training.
Think of the company in 1 or 2 years from now instead of having a short sighted vision.
I think BALPA should get ECA/IFALPA and similar partner organizations into this and make it a European issue because keeping it a local UK thing allowing RYR to just move the game abroad is a loosing game.
They need international support to win the UK battle, the rest will happen step by step.
yes you look at the facts NOW, try to visualize what's behind the corner and not just what you see in front of you...just like you would be required to do during your command upgrade training.
Think of the company in 1 or 2 years from now instead of having a short sighted vision.
I think BALPA should get ECA/IFALPA and similar partner organizations into this and make it a European issue because keeping it a local UK thing allowing RYR to just move the game abroad is a loosing game.
They need international support to win the UK battle, the rest will happen step by step.
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Having spoken to a fairly senior member of the Ryanair team about this recently, it has become obvious to me ...
And what, pray, would you expect him to say?
And why do you - as you appear to - believe what he says?
Presumably he told you about really bad things that would happen too.... did you swear eternal loyalty to ensure that you would not be contaminated by "bad" people looking to protect themselves?
If things can be made "obvious" to you so easily, perhaps you might care to think again about what is going on just below the level of the "obvious".
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Thats very true.
All I'm saying is that Ryanair are in a very strong position here- they're not exactly at the asking their staff to work for free stage. I can just see this playing out like the miners' strikes in the 80's. As Thatcher stockpiled coal before hand, so Ryanair have billions in the bank.
All I'm saying is that Ryanair are in a very strong position here- they're not exactly at the asking their staff to work for free stage. I can just see this playing out like the miners' strikes in the 80's. As Thatcher stockpiled coal before hand, so Ryanair have billions in the bank.
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as17,
RYR have millions in their bank, true.
RYR also have obligations towards their share holders and I can assure you that someone putting money into a business wants things to go ahead as smoothly as possible and a personal war between management and the frontline workers is not exactly what a shareholder wants to see, especially if the issue makes its way onto the media making the RYR bubble burst into the worst kind of PR they could possibly have: exploited and treathened workers that are responsible for the safety of unaware passengers.
RYR have millions in their bank, true.
RYR also have obligations towards their share holders and I can assure you that someone putting money into a business wants things to go ahead as smoothly as possible and a personal war between management and the frontline workers is not exactly what a shareholder wants to see, especially if the issue makes its way onto the media making the RYR bubble burst into the worst kind of PR they could possibly have: exploited and treathened workers that are responsible for the safety of unaware passengers.
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Ryanair has everything to lose in a battle against its pilots. They cannot go too far.
And remember, the Soviet Union seemed irresistible in the 80s. Look what it's turned into.
MOL seems irresistible today. Seems.
It's only sad things have to be this way while they could be so much smoother, the Southwest way...
And remember, the Soviet Union seemed irresistible in the 80s. Look what it's turned into.
MOL seems irresistible today. Seems.
It's only sad things have to be this way while they could be so much smoother, the Southwest way...
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Most of the FR pilots don't care about union and don't know what's BALPA. What BALPA will do? Hmmm I really don't know... Sometimes I have the impression that most of the pilots who are unhappy with FR management are not even FR pilots.
It's not the war of the FR pilots, it's the war of the Giant Balpa against it's worst enemy FR management, For FR pilots nothing to win...everything to lose...see already the colataral damage for UKFR pilots are coming....
It's not the war of the FR pilots, it's the war of the Giant Balpa against it's worst enemy FR management, For FR pilots nothing to win...everything to lose...see already the colataral damage for UKFR pilots are coming....
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aeroncaman
Probably true, but the younger generation, in fact pilots in general, seem to have had their b@lls genetically de-activated.
And the rest of us old farts are too bitter & cynical to see beyond the next pay-cheque to give a sh1t, so who does that leave ? ?
Probably true, but the younger generation, in fact pilots in general, seem to have had their b@lls genetically de-activated.
And the rest of us old farts are too bitter & cynical to see beyond the next pay-cheque to give a sh1t, so who does that leave ? ?