|
Answer the questions...
Here is one of many. So would you agree that pilots in Stockholm should be paid more than Cork? Still not answered and not likely to be I think! |
BBT, those talks were about Irish bases not bases outside the ROI...
The Irish Times was not reporting what you are hinting at. You've got an angle on this as well so yu can stp pretending you are some impartial observer on this. Aer Lingus will lease aircraft from Ryanair to cover strike Ciarán Hancock, John McManus and Martin Wall in Shannon Aer Lingus is to hire aircraft from Ryanair to provide cover for the 48-hour strike planned by its pilots for next Tuesday and Wednesday. The airline confirmed it has leased two planes from its rival and largest shareholder. "Customers come first," said a spokesman for the airline. A Ryanair spokesman confirmed Aer Lingus had been offered planes. Neither airline would say if the planes would be crewed by members of the Irish Airline Pilots' Association (IALPA), which represents both Aer Lingus and Ryanair pilots. This is affiliated to the Impact trade union and is in dispute with Aer Lingus. Ryanair, which this week increased its stake in Aer Lingus to more than 28 per cent, has been a vocal critic of the plan to move routes from Shannon to London Heathrow to Belfast airport that triggered the dispute. It has called an extraordinary general meeting of Aer Lingus to try and have the decision reversed. Ryanair chief executive Michael O'Leary has branded the move "insane". Aer Lingus chief executive Dermot Mannion said the strike was "wholly unnecessary" and would damage "all of our interests associated with the organisation". Impact is objecting to the plan to hire pilots for Belfast on inferior terms to Dublin-based pilots. Mr Mannion said the airline had exhausted every option under State industrial relations machinery to resolve the dispute."I am calling on individual pilots in Aer Lingus, who have shown great loyalty to the organisation in the past, to please cancel the strike action for Tuesday and come back to work," he said. He said the IALPA branch of Impact had not put to its members the terms of a report produced by industrial relations consultant Phil Flynn under the auspices of the Labour Court. This recommended the company should be allowed to recruit staff at new bases on local market rates. Michael Landers, the assistant general secretary of Impact, said he was confident none of Aer Lingus's 500 pilots would accede to Mr Mannion's request. He said the union did not have difficulty with IALPA pilots working for Ryanair and in effect breaking the strike by Aer Lingus IALPA members. Alibaba, you're losing it mate...Cost of living is probably lower then Cork. look at the Economist tables sometime for instance. Only thing higher in Sweden is the taxes. Look at the cost of food, the cost of cars, Childcare, heath costs, houses etc etc Now about your customers Ali, anytime mate when you;re ready...I presume you have no problem with the FR lads transporting your customers to make sure they aren't overly disrupted? |
Alibaba, you're losing it mate The cost of living in Stockholm, Copenhagen, Paris or Oslo is less than Cork. I have heard it all. :D The economist is that magazine with the red top is it not. :rolleyes:Does Adam Smith write for them as I have heard he knows what he is talking about. Talks quite a bit of sense that man you know, you might want to read what he says about Labour Relations and how it can have a dramatic affect on business profitability. ;) Aer Lingus dispute reflects deep unease over management's agenda (The Irish Times Via Thomson Dialog NewsEdge) Staff are fearful that outside bases will undermine their position, writes Martin Wall , Industry Correspondent In a report earlier this year, the industrial relations consultant Phil Flynn pointed to a "deep distrust" between Aer Lingus management and its pilots as one of the principal reasons why the parties had failed to reach agreement between themselves on work practice reform at the company. The lack of trust highlighted in the report, which goes far wider than the rows over the Shannon-Heathrow service or the establishment of a new base in Belfast, is central to explaining how the company and the pilots' union Impact have reached the brink of a 48-hour national strike that would cause disruption to tens of thousands of passengers. Staff in the company - and not just pilots - have argued that Aer Lingus has shown an insatiable demand for change in recent times. They contend that every time they made concessions, management has simply accepted them and within a short period returned seeking more reform. Staff have also maintained that management's position seemed to be that anything short of achieving its full agenda would be unacceptable, a point also noted in the Flynn report. However the company, for its part, argues that times have changed. The airline is no longer a semi-State but rather a publicly quoted company with obligations to maximise profits for its shareholders (including the staff, with a 12.5 per cent shareholding). Management has contended that it is critical for the airline to reduce its costs and review work practices that have grown up over the years. It believes this is essential to allow it to match the flexibility shown by its competitors. Shortly after its flotation last year, the company commissioned external consultants to benchmark its entire operation against best practices in the aviation industry. This resulted in an initiative to curtail costs and improve efficiencies across the board that aimed to save 20 million in the first year. The company has argued that although staff costs per passenger on average have been decreasing in recent years, without action this figure would rise again, a trend which would be unacceptable to shareholders. That this cost containment plan was put forward by management just as it was seeking to fight off an aggressive takeover bid for the airline, launched by Michael O'Leary and Ryanair, did little to help its prospects of being accepted by the unions. The Flynn report suggests that the move by the company to commit to making specific changes in a notice to the stock market, without prior consultation even with its own line managers, was another contributory factor in talks on the plan going nowhere. The cost containment plan, or programme for continuous improvement, as it was officially known, effectively resulted in a process whereby the company sought to negotiate changes in work practices at home while planning for the establishment of new bases outside the jurisdiction. At the new bases, the company sought to operate more or less from scratch without any of the so-called restrictive practices that applied in the Republic. Management is absolutely adamant that it will not allow the existing work practices which have grown up in the Republic to be exported to its new bases abroad. It also wants to introduce new pay scales and pension arrangements for pilots recruited at its planned base in Belfast, which would be the model for future expansion elsewhere. The union, for its part, has sought as far as possible to hold on to the terms and conditions it secured in negotiations over decades. It is also strongly opposed to a two-tier system that would see pilots outside the Republic having different pay and conditions. The Flynn report also specifically states there is a real fear on the part of pilots that the company would use the establishment of outside bases to undermine the existing conditions and bargaining capacity of Irish-based pilots. Impact has also argued that the existing working agreements do not constitute restrictive practices but rather merely set out definitions on the amount of work pilots can be asked to do. Aer Lingus management has said that significant progress has been made in negotiating with the union on work practice changes in relation to its short-haul network. However, it has maintained that a lot of work remains in relation to the long-haul area, where it sees most commercial opportunities in the future. Management has, in particular, pointed to the agreements with the union governing "stick time" - the length of time a pilot can be at the controls of an aircraft - as an area where it wants reform. The company has argued that, under existing arrangements, the nine-hour flight time on the planned route to Orlando in Florida would involve having three pilots on board. It is looking for flexibility to fly the route with only two pilots. It says the requirement for three pilots was a significant factor in this service being discontinued on a previous occasion. Management has also indicated that it wants to review the issue of performance pay for pilots. Pilots, under regulation, can only fly for 900 hours per year. Management says pilots in Aer Lingus qualify for performance or premium pay after flying 520 hours, whereas in other competitors this threshold is 750 hours. The pilots' union has disputed that pay scales in Aer Lingus are above the industry norm. Both sides are also at odds over plans by the company to reduce the "stopover" time pilots have after flying to the west coast of the US. Last night it appeared that the parties were moving closer to agreeing to meet for talks at the Labour Relations Commission in a move to avert the strike planned for Tuesday and Wednesday. However, on the substantive issue of whether pilots in Belfast should be employed on new terms and conditions, union and management seem as far apart as ever. |
alibaba :p:p
I think you're still living in the 1980's when Ireland was dogged by near 25% unemployment and was the poor man of Europe... Things have changed here over the past decade, maybe you're not aware of it? Ireland is one of the most expensive places to live in the world now. Consumer goods, House prices, cars, food, childcare etc etc are all among the most expensive of any country. And that is not restricted to Dublin. Cork has been booming and real estate down there is a fortune...And of course all the regular costs in Cork will be the same in Dublin childcare, health, consumer goods and food, cars, insurance road tax and so on. Are you even Irish ali? |
Oneworld22, the Irish Times did report what I said. You did not have gounds for your claims about what IALPA said. Your post above is simply an attempt to divert attention from the fact that you selectively quoted from an IALPA document in an attempt to mislead.
And you got caught. You continue to refuse to accept the simple fact that Aer Lingus made a commitment to talks and then broke that commitment - as was reported by the Irish Times and cited by myself in an earlier post. You seem incapable of doing anything other than sprout your one-track and narrow worldview. |
BBT are you actually pretending that you're impartial here?
There are no impartial posters on this thread. I am sticking up for your employer and your customer, you're saying sod your employer and your customer and are trying to stop your employer from going ahead with it's commercial decision to open up a new base in another country, over unfounded allegations that it will erode conditions in the ROI. AL is not a semi state company anymore, you can't keep holding your employer to ransom everytime they make a decision you don't like. |
You can attack me all you like but by each post you make yourself look more and more outcast.
An extreme point of view with no valid facts but just opinions and hot air.... :* Still no questions answered. :confused: Don't expect that pilots will let you get away with inaccurate and inappropriate comments on PRUNE as they will not. As has been proved and continually will be. |
One last time. I am NOT representing myself to be anything. (But I can confirm that I am not an Aer Lingus employee, if you are suggesting that I am).
I just asked questions and you replied. I check out my sources and I checked out yours. That is not a pretence at impartiality, it is just a way of conducting myself. You seem to have a completely different way of conducting yourself - which, as a matter of fact, can be seen by just reading your many, many posts and examining their content. That's it. Let it be. It's over. |
IALPA's Evan Cullen appeared on the lunchtime news in Ireland today stating that he had no problem with the hiring in of RYR aircraft as their grievance is with EIN management and not the travelling public.
the grim repa: "Aer lingus to use two ryanair scab aircraft to operate during next weeks (sic) strike". The names of those operating will be noted". "The names of those operating will be noted One would have hoped that members of this profession would act in a less childish manner than pursueing these tactics which are more akin to a schoolyard row. |
All questions have been answered me dear ali. You have not answered questions as to what happens your customers.
BBT you have quoted carte blanche about what IALPA and the AL pilots are saying via what they have said to the IT! That's not being impartial, just quoting indirectly what the union is saying. You are claiming AL made a commitment to talks, did these talks include the possibilities of opening up a UK base? If so show me the proof of this. So I'll ask you as well BBT, what about the customer in all this? |
I agree Irish Laddie
Surely a strike is about withdrawing your labour to make a point (a point which I think is very valid) and hopefully force the upper managment into changing its ways, not about forcing your opinion on others. Your battle is not with fellow pilots, nor pilots of another airline. It is the unions (read union members) choice to strike. Don't feel you have to bully or intimidate others, with no affiliation to the union, to join your cause. |
I have answered your question as to customers.
Anyone with half a brain cell understands what and how an airline affects an economy and what the effect of a strike will have on the economy and customer relations. Do you not think people do not consider this when making such a decision as extreme as resorting to strike action? Such a decision is not taken lightly. Some customers might understand that EI pilots will not let there T+C's go down the toilet like many other companies have done and that the race to the bottom will be stopped for the benefit of all pilots... Does the consumer understand what ethical business practices are? You still choose not to talk about FR or Easy but you dismiss the points put to you as if you know exactly what has gone on in these situations. But the reality is that you know very little. You have no facts to provide that this doesn't happen, but you would only have to have read the many threads on either company to realise it does happen. Just on a side note, it matters not to the context of the argument of whether I am Irish or not. I like the side track though. Dodging in and out of questions and throwing the odd bit of smoke up to try and detract from the central arguments. :suspect: |
I'm not dodging anything. You're just desperately trying to introducing new irrelevancies into this discussion to try and get away from the unjustified action by the pilots!
I've answered on FR, I have said the other bases have NOT downgraded the DUB base. I have answered on that silly question put back to me about customers and ethics when I was asking about their opinion on their customers! I have answered on costs of living which you made yourself look very foolish as you clearly do have not done any research on this and the differences between countries. And STILL no words about the customers! No sympathy, no apology for letting them down. Instead disgraceful words and threats against the FR crews who will try and help out AL customers next week... The central "argument" remains. AL pilots are going on strike because the company has made a justifiable decision to open a BFS base and offer different terms and conditions. Pilots are going on strike because they claim with no proof of this, that their conditions will deteriorate in the ROI. |
Dodge, dodge and dodge.
Oslo is more expensive than Cork. I can assure you of that. It seems like you want facts and figures. Here is an idea, go look it up yourself! The main basis of the statement is if an airline opens a base in a more expensive place than its own main base. Should it pay extra with improved T+C's at the new one? You have not answered about FR or Easy. That is it. Bases in FR have been getting opened with lower and lower rates, that is a fact. The issue over 200 to 800 conversions has been used against pilots in DUB for FR. Bases and then contractors being played off against each other to remove the DUB pilots or there T+C’s. You're just desperately trying to introducing new irrelevancies into this discussion to try and get away from the unjustified action by the pilots! Answer the points brought up in post 183 also. I will agree with you on one thing OW. That is I can not see an apology to the general public on the IALPA press release. Now somebody please tell me I am wrong but maybe one is warranted if not already there? That I will agree should be there. I also think the management should apologise for the inconvenience to the pax. |
I have said the other bases have NOT downgraded the DUB base. Instead disgraceful words and threats against the FR crews who will try and help out AL customers next week... Evan Cullen has said today that there is no problem with ryanair pilots flying hire-ins, as the dispute is with "management, not the customers." IFALPA have also been asked by IALPA to lift the ban on hire-ins. Seems to me that were you to ascertain the facts, you would see that that IALPA are doing their best to inconvenience the customers as little as possible. |
IALPA are doing their best to inconvenience the customers as little as possible. ali baby, you're still not giving justification for this strike! You can't use Ryanair and Easyjet as to what you think might happen. Fact is you're still guessing! The ROI conditions are not an issue here, they can't be because nothing will happen to them! Go on what you know are facts. Of course FR bases in Poland and elsewhere have opened on lower T's and C's relative to say Dublin. What do you expect? Or do you really think that Ryanair pilots in Poland should be on exactly the same pay as ones in Dublin? I also think the management should apologise for the inconvenience to the pax. Eh, what? Who is calling the strike? Who is refusing to work next week?? Oh I see.....nasty, wasty Mr. Mannion of Mordor has frced you into this action none of you wanted eh?! :rolleyes: |
No pilots are on strike because they want the two days off to go the cinema with the kids and go and have a Indian with the Mrs. :ugh:
Get real. Why would the pilots want go on strike? Answer your own question? While you’re at that, answer all the other points. FR salary changes happen within ROI and UK. More expensive places being paid less than less expensive place to live which are being paid more. Your argument doesn't stand up as it is already happening in other companies and this change in T+C's is always the first step to the reduction in T+C's across the board. Another post down nothing answered. You do have a certain pattern going on here OW. |
You do have a certain pattern going on here OW. As you do Ali baby, jeez, hello kettle, pot here..... |
Please do not feed the animals
Alibaba, stop feeding the Troll.
|
So the IALPA position is that ryr pilots can fly to break the strike. As far as i can see, this is a legalistic thing to avoid the sympathy strike issue.
I would call upon any ryanair pilots told to fly on strike breaking duties to go sick. In fact, glorious would be the day that ALL ryanair pilots take a few days off sick. I, for one, will be on the EI picket line. We at ryanair are almost totally responsible for the debacle that is the profession in Ireland, so the very least we can do is show some support for those we've undermined. Who's with me? |
:mad::mad:
|
"Are you even Irish ali?"
thats a bit rich, coming from a blow-in...:E |
Flynn was not aware of Aer Lingus Belfast plan
Sunday, 19 August 2007 13:00 The industrial relations negotiator who worked with Aer Lingus management and pilots over the company's plans to set up new bases outside the Republic, has said he was unaware of any proposals for Belfast. Phil Flynn told the pilots' union in a letter that had he known of the plans, he would probably have recommended that pilot concerns about the establishment of the base be dealt with through joint discussions. IALPA says Mr Flynn's statement vindicates its position that the Belfast base does not come under the terms of the Flynn Report, and undermines Aer Lingus' claims that it does. Advertisement The Union is now asking that Aer Lingus reconsiders its offer for talks regarding the staffing of the Belfast base. Aer Lingus says at the time that Mr Flynn was working on his recommendations, no new bases had been definitively identified. Since then, the airline says, Belfast was identified as a new base in the spirit of the recommendations of the Flynn Report. Source:http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0819/aerlingus.html |
From todays RTE website:
Flynn was not aware of Aer Lingus Belfast plan Sunday, 19 August 2007 13:00 The industrial relations negotiator who worked with Aer Lingus management and pilots over the company's plans to set up new bases outside the Republic, has said he was unaware of any proposals for Belfast. Phil Flynn told the pilots' union in a letter that had he known of the plans, he would probably have recommended that pilot concerns about the establishment of the base be dealt with through joint discussions. IALPA says Mr Flynn's statement vindicates its position that the Belfast base does not come under the terms of the Flynn Report, and undermines Aer Lingus' claims that it does. The Union is now asking that Aer Lingus reconsiders its offer for talks regarding the staffing of the Belfast base. Aer Lingus says at the time that Mr Flynn was working on his recommendations, no new bases had been definitively identified. Since then, the airline says, Belfast was identified as a new base in the spirit of the recommendations of the Flynn Report. Mr Flynn says he was aware the company was considering future bases in North America, Eastern Europe, Britain and Cork. But he said the information he received from the company did not include plans for a base in Belfast. http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0819/aerlingus.html |
Aer Lingus management are playing silly buggers and that message is now getting out loud and clear.
Anyone in business who considers contractual agreements as empty promises to be ignored at whim is - as I said - a liar and a fraudster. A Liar, because thats what such a person makes of themselves by freely entering into contractual agreements they have no intention of honouring; And a Fraudster, because wilfull breach of contract is more than just a lie - it is deception, and patently fraudelent. Stand31, there is no point in talking to a troll - give it up. |
:p:p :D
Good man CaptKremin, keep flinging the mud and smokescreens. And keep playing the man. Don't get personal Kremin, I warned you on that. I said there are occasions in which agreement can be broken. (and indeed which have been backed by the Labour Court in the past) |
Is this bait from a hungry troll I see before me?
|
Irish Times site
Flynn 'unaware' of plans for Belfast hub
Irish Times – 16:49 It has emerged that industrial relations consultant Phil Flynn who adjudicated over talks on Aer Lingus's plans to set up new bases outside the Republic was not aware of the airline's plans to move operations to Belfast. In a written response to a query made by the Irish Air Line Pilots Association (Ialpa) Mr Flynn said he would probably have recommended that any concerns about such a move should be dealt with through joint discussions. Aer Lingus chief executive Dermot Mannion said this week that a report produced by Mr Flynn under the auspices of the Labour Court recommended the company should be allowed to recruit staff at new bases on local market rates. The airline says that at the time of the report that it had yet to decide on a location for its new base. However Mr Flynn made his remarks in reply to a request by Ialpa for him to clarify the situation. Ialpa said Mr Flynn's statement vindicates its position that the Belfast base does not come under the terms of the Flynn Report, and undermines Aer Lingus' claims that it does. President Evan Cullen call on Aer Lingus to reconsiders its offer for talks to negotiate on the terms and conditions for the Belfast jobs. |
Mannion writes letter to IALPA pilots
Sunday, 19 August 2007 19:53 Dermot Mannion has written to pilots union IALPA, inviting them to talks aimed at alleviating their concerns surrounding the setting up of a new base in Belfast. In the letter, seen by RTE News, Mr Mannion says the company accepts a recommendation made by industrial relations troubleshooter Phil Flynn, that the company should engage in discussions to explore how such concerns can be alleviated. http://www.rte.ie |
Hopefully sense can be seen on both sides, get into talks, hammer things out on an equitable basis and move on.
One world 22 ,having read all your jump on the band wagon posts, you either are a wanna be, working for AL in a marginal capacity or working in a slurry pit, but your posts are imo are fire brand contentious, and of the H20 dream variety.. No one wants this industrial unrest....pilots as family folk in their wildest dreams grimace at the thought of discommoding family holiday plans .hopefully with the tentacle of Mannions letter tonight vis a vee Flynns comments, the strike can be called off, all parties sit down, engage, and sort their grievances, work things out, there will have to be will be give and take on both sides and bingo BFS base is an entitly with all on board reasonably happy .... |
One world 22
little needs to be said................Get a life!! |
Last Updated: 20/08/2007 12:47 - Irish Times
Pilots accept LRC invitation from Aer Lingus The Irish Airline Pilots Association (IALPA) has accepted an invitation from Aer Lingus for joint talks at the Labour Relations Commission (LRC) and will call off its strike when talks are confirmed. Aer Lingus chief executive Dermot Mannion last night wrote to the Irish Airline Pilots' Association (IALPA) calling on the union to withdraw its strike notice and to immediately engage with the company. In a statement issued a short time ago by IALPA, the union said it would suspend the strike when Aer Lingus provided written confirmation that it agreed to the talks. The news that the strike action is likely to be averted will come as a relief to the estimated 40,000 passengers who would have been affected by the 48-hour walkout by almost 500 pilots. The pilots proposed to strike over the airline's plans to hire pilots for the new Belfast base on less favourable terms and conditions than its pilots flying out of the Republic. |
Good news, talks to be confirmed
Last Updated: 20/08/2007 12:47 Pilots accept LRC invite from Aer Lingus The Irish Airline Pilots Association (IALPA) has accepted an invitation from Aer Lingus for joint talks at the Labour Relations Commission (LRC) and will call off its strike when talks are confirmed. Aer Lingus chief executive Dermot Mannion last night wrote to the Irish Airline Pilots' Association (IALPA) calling on the union to withdraw its strike notice and to immediately engage with the company. Aer Lingus chief executive Dermot Mannion In a statement issued a short time ago by IALPA, the union said it would suspend the strike when Aer Lingus provided written confirmation that it agreed to the talks. The news that the strike action is likely to be averted will come as a relief to the estimated 40,000 passengers who would have been affected by the 48-hour walkout by almost 500 pilots. The pilots proposed to strike over the airline's plans to hire pilots for the new Belfast base on less favourable terms and conditions than its pilots flying out of the Republic. It also emerged last night that the Taoiseach has asked Government officials to examine options for airline connections to the region. A report in this morning's Irish Times says the group will begin work in the coming days and that Cabinet will consider the issue in 10 days' time at its first meeting after the holidays. The group has also been asked to examine the |
Pilots offer to suspend 48hr strike
Monday, 20 August 2007 12:48 The Irish Airline Pilots' Association has offered to suspend its two day strike if Aer Lingus agrees to enter talks at the Labour Relations Commission. In a letter to Aer Lingus Chief Executive Dermott Mannion, the pilots' union said it welcomed the prospect that Aer Lingus and the union could avoid a damaging strike on Tuesday and Wednesday, which could affect up to 50,000 passengers. The union proposes that Aer Lingus and IALPA should jointly approach the LRC with a request to facilitate joint discussions. IALPA says that if it gets written confirmation that Aer Lingus agrees to this proposal it will suspend the strike. The union says it welcomes mediator Phil Flynn's suggestion that joint discussions take place on how IALPA concerns might be allayed. IALPA will be making no further comment until it receives a response from Aer Lingus. Source: http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0820/aerlingus1.html |
Suicide by Union.
Who's with me? |
the camel's back.must be afraid the strike will not go ahead.loser extraordinaire!
|
Welcome back Leo. Seeing as you only appear when things aren't going ryanairs way, it appears micko is getting worried about this situation.
Anyhoo, hope the grass the greener in Germany Leo, than the distinctly brown shade it is elsewhere. |
strike off...:D
|
Phew!
Glad for all concerned. Customers, the airline and yes, it's Pilots as well. Hopefully an agreement can be reached now. Aer Lingus pilots call off 48-hr strike Monday, 20 August 2007 15:24 Aer Lingus pilots have called off their two-day strike which was scheduled to begin at midnight. In a letter to Aer Lingus Chief Executive Dermot Mannion, the pilots' union, IALPA, welcomed the company's acceptance of the pilots' proposal for talks facilitated by the Labour Relations Commission. They said that as a result the strike planned for tomorrow and Wednesday is now suspended. |
Now,wouldn't it have been much easier for management :rolleyes: to have just sat down and talked in the first place, instead of instigating their failed poilcy of engineering a strike and trying to force the pilots to capitulate?!
|
| All times are GMT. The time now is 15:25. |
Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.