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CK, not sure where you've been doing your googling, but "ireland ~ pilots ~ strike" turns up 1,400,000 results, while "ireland ~ journalists ~ strike" turns up 1,150,000. The sheer numbers weren't the point though, the point was that the numbers are completely irrelevant because of the random amount of duplication out there.
I also don't recall "hopping" on anyone for anything, and I try not to resort to hectoring and bullying in my posts. The idea of a forum is that different people can express different opinions. When someone bullies, insults and shouts down any one who's opinion digresses from their own, that pretty much defeats the point. Funny how you're so into pilots freedom of expression on striking etc, but so unconcerned by the whole freedom of speech thing - ie the freedom of people to express opinions which are not shared by your good self. My post was not just about journalists v pilots and who strike more, it was about the overall tone you adopt on this forum. It's not condusive to debate, unless that debate involves us all telling you how right and wonderful you are. |
Are you a journo? If so please note that 'condascending'(sic) has no 'a' in it. Tsk Tsk. Dear oh dear, is this really the standard of "debate" we can expect now on this thread? Pedant of the year award right there methinks....:rolleyes: For the umpteenth time, this is an open forum. Any registered PPRuNer is free to add to this debate until such time as Danny locks it strictly for Pilots only. And by god, just how boiring would this place be then?! |
Well done, Curser, you just proved my point :)
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This is not a debate, just pathetic bickering.
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The way to settle this so-called bickering is simple. All those non-pilots on the forum involved in putting down the EI pilots should reveal their occupations. Then everyone else can make uninformed comments about that occupation, pass themselves off as experts in the field, begrudge them their money, demand they work harder and generally put the boot in.
Bring it on if you're brave enough. |
To quote LHC ..... "you can almost hear the crickets chirping".
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Whether they get the correct number of returned contracts is an entirely different matter. Clearly the management are hedging their bets 'just in case' with the turboprop red herring but I very much doubt anybody with 1000hrs left seat prop will get a real look at an A320. There will be a significant number of applicants for these positions because at the end of the day, if the package isn't right you don't have to take it. EI have said nothing on the actual package other than an inference that basic will be circa £77k. the two airbus operations in BFS/BHD don't come cheap. MYT and BMI are full of senior guys on senior money. I don't think EI will be able to match those figures. EZY basic is around £74k but the total package seems closer to £90k depending on bonuses and alike. Does anybody actually know what they are planning with regards to pensions and duty pay etc? Until these figures come out the whole debate is largely meaningless. That should throw a large spanner in the works.:suspect: |
Can't see that being a large spanner really. There are plenty of TRTO's. Many of Europe's airlines are hiring contract pilots who are being checked by contracted trainers. It would obviously be better to have the whole mess sorted but if it degenerates to that level of hard-ball tactics then this would be an option open to them.
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And a complete all out strike would once again be on the cards for Aer Lingus.
Respectfully suggest you read the previous pages on this subject. |
:rolleyes:
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Can't see that being a large spanner really. There are plenty of TRTO's. Many of Europe's airlines are hiring contract pilots who are being checked by contracted trainers. In any case, who will do the training and checking in Dublin Base when all the instructors there have resigned their jobs? No strike necessary. By the way chectunset - what is it you do for a living? Who do you work for and in what capacity. I'm sure you won't mind saying. |
Shorthaul Captain. UK AOC. No idea what's on your AOC but it clearly reads very different to ours. Would EI in BFS on a UK AOC make your happy?
Perhaps we should know who you are? rank? seniority number? position in Union? how many previous operators you've worked for? I'm sure you won't mind saying :hmm: |
Presumably you have a Chief pilot, Head of training, etc to satisfy the requirements of the AOC?
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You mean postholders, of course, and your point is?
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Then for AL to set up operations on a UK AOC, postholders will have to be appointed specifically for that operation. I think this would be very costly to do for every new base. Also. where would the aircraft be registered? If on the UK register,will they will have to remain in Belfast, and cannot be rotated through dublin for maintenence, etc?
This is only a small aside to the fact of the mutually signed job security and work practice agreements in place, ie. what this whole dispute is over... |
Chec tunset, I have been led to believe that a UK AOC would be both expensive and probably take over a year, What ever the solution to our issues it will be resolved long before that. Consequently the willingness of our own training and standards department to cooperate will be an important factor. I cant speak for CK, but no I would not be happy to see BFS on a UK AOC. We are one pilot body and we have one set of standards. If you know differently re a new AOC, I would be very interested to hear.
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Uk AOC for just three a/c, even with expansion it would be too expensive. Also, UK FTL's allow for 12 hours min rest, IAA FTL's allow for 11 hours and as mentioned previously what about post holders etc.
Also, those going on about ONLY 1000 turbo prop hours, please remember that the EI Part A Gen or its equivalent allows for turbo prop command with 2000 hours total time or 2500 hours for jet command from memory. Neither of which has ever happened due to seniorty. The company will do a deal and so will IALPA, its their style and style of most union/company relationships. Start poles apart and meet in the middle. |
:mad: !!
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DM and Doctor Liz have gone down a road with no turn back....don't know if they teased out all the scenarios....
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dont know if they teased out all the scenarios.... |
Checktunset - has the AOC penny dropped for you now?
Are you beginning to cop on to the hole Mannion is digging for himself? And as previously stated on another thread (which I'm sure you've read) I'm a Captain with over 25 years service. I think you can guess who I work for, but seniority number? :rolleyes: Don't push your luck laddy. |
Latest update. Impact has written to the LC asking it to clarify if Belfast was included as a foreign base when it made it's recommendation! Surely any reasonable person would classify Belfast as a Foreign base...
Last Updated: 27/08/2007 18:36 Impact queries status of Aer Lingus Belfast base There is speculation this evening that Aer Lingus cabin crew may join pilots in the dispute with management over the establishment of a new base in Belfast. This follows confirmation from Impact, which represents pilots and cabin crew, that it has written to the Labour Court querying whether its recommendation on "foreign bases" was meant to include Belfast. The recommendations, issued last February, said that management should be allowed to recruit staff in foreign bases at local pay rates. But Impact today published details of a letter of enquiry sent to the Labour Court on August 21st which sought clarification on whether its recommendation on foreign bases was intended to include Belfast. The union also asked whether the Labour Court understood that the opening of any new base would be at the expense of staff at existing base. The Court has written to Aer Lingus asking for its observations in relation to Impact's enquiry and has promised to reply to the union's letter once it has received the airline's response. The move has fuelled speculation that Aer Lingus cabin crew may join pilots in their opposition to management's plan to hire pilots for Belfast on inferior terms to Dublin-based pilots. Meanwhile management and union representatives were back before the Labour Relations Commission (LRC) today for talks over the airline's new Belfast base. Discussions on the row, which had threatened to ground the airline's fleet for two days last week affecting around 40,000 passengers, were adjourned at the LRC last Wednesday afternoon. The dispute centres on whether the Irish Airline Pilots' Association and Impact should have a role in negotiating the pay and conditions for pilots recruited at the new Northern Ireland base. The union claimed pilots recruited in Belfast would be on worse terms and conditions than those that apply in the Republic. But the airline insisted pilots would get higher salaries at the early part of the pay scale, although they would not be allowed participate in the defined benefit pension scheme. Aer Lingus said unions could not be involved in talks on bases outside the Republic. The pilots' union said last week they were optimistic a solution could be found to resolve the disagreement. Further talks are also scheduled for Thursday and Friday. |
Where exactly are you going with that comment....?
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I thought ALL the Bases were in the Emerald Isle.:ok:
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I'm saying that the LC made their recommendation saying that management could apply local market conditions to any new foreign base opened.
Belfast is in another country.... |
Don't you think the political situation in Ireland could be considered a little more complex than that?
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Not in an economic/financial sense...
Different currency, differing rates, very different prices....etc |
I know what you're getting at, but I think this particular example is a little bit more sensitive than say, for example, the base was on Birmingham, etc.
Living in N.I., you are perfectly entitled to be an Irish citizen, hold an Irish passport, etc. This does not apply to the rest of the U.K. It will be interesting to see how the labour court clarify this position. Flynn already said he was not told Belfast was on the cards as a possible base. |
a provision in the Good Friday Agreement recognising:
"The birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland." From memory there's also a bit in there upholding "equality" for all the citizens of the island |
Not trying to start a political debate, by the way.
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I don't like where this is going. The only divide I know is the one I stare at oneworld22 across.
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That's the way I like it baby!
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Lets put this one to bed. The lads are talking at the LRC. There will be lots to talk about within the week....see ya then.
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Agree with you. Lets see what the outcome is, seems to be positive vibes coming out, so hopefully an agreement can be made and the airline can move forward and fight off FR.
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I'm not trying to start a political debate either.
Just pointing out the reason why I believe the labour court can only come to one conclusion on whether BFS, in legal terms, can be considered "Foreign". |
CK my reference to seniority number was 'tongue in cheek'. The way I see what was going on was that everybody was backing themselves into their own corner and that can't be good. I do admit that I am a little surprised that the management didn't see a lot of this coming ages ago. Anyway I hope it gets sorted for everybody's sake in a sensible manner and without industrial action.
wrt the classification of BFS as a foreign base, I'm afraid that I agree that there can only be one answer to this..it is (at least for now anyway). BFS based crews will be subject to UK employment laws and taxation. You will notice on other threads the 'fun' Easyjet is having with this in Europe. It would be daft for EI or the Unions to see it any other way as irrespective of what they think, the HMRC and UK Govt will treat it as their jurisdiction. This will also encompass 'Fair Employment' legislation (something which has been commented on earlier) which may make the whole transfer poilcy between bases pretty cloudy and is possibly why the management has said 'no transfers'. This has nothing to do with anybody's right to be Irish or British and is should not be cofused in this way. Another interesting offshoot of this would be IALPA's jurisdiction. I'm pretty sure BALPA would have to be involved as they are a recognised UK Trade Union. Perhaps they will arrange some bilateral agreement. |
Up the workers!
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Both sides should learn to love your neibour and you love yourself. The fault/disfunction and solution can ony be found if both parties subdue their ego's and look at the clear core of the problem. The really is no problem - it is only man made and temporary - like anything man makes.
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That almost brought a tear to my eye it was so eloquently put.
Unfortunately I can't reconcile how a drop in pay and conditions and a lack of promotion prospects could be akin to an "ego" issue. |
I wonder how much "love" and "respect" there is in a euro?
50 repsects in a love, and 20 Loves to the euro perhaps? Will my bank manager take "love" instead of hard cash for my mortgage? Perhaps I should try? |
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