Yes it would INLAK.
Now that the pilots have demonstrated that we won't role over like ryanair pilots, hopefully we can negotiate in an adult fashion, as is prevalent elsewhere in the industry.
As demonstrated by our financial commitment to keeping AL independent, the pilots can be the best friend of anyone seeking to strengthen the airline. So let's hope a mutually acceptable agreement is now thrashed out.

Yes, but there's more than one way to capitulate - I hope there is no sell-out.

:mad::mad:

The few, the brave, the pointless.
 

Must be lonely at the barricades, CamelhAir, with just yourself, the Dim Repa and a tepid flask of hot chockie for company. There’s nothing sadder than an old warrior who won’t admit, or as is more likely in your case, doesn’t know that the battle’s lost.

REPA, your IALPA funded fiasco has been comprehensively emasculated, its only lingering legacy the disfigured stickers calling for membership of the “punity disunity community” plastered all over our brand new aircraft, and now you’re reduced to spending your time gathering support for IALPA’s latest outrage of the indefensible.

Rather than appearing when our Alexander is in trouble, I rather think I lead the trumpet chorus. We now own thirty percent of EI, we have a massively expanding operation, the most profitable airline on earth by a very long way, margins of over 20% that would have even the most stoic airline CFO’s the world over salivating like hungry wolves, and that sounds like trouble to you, does it? Sounds like he’s doing alright to me.

You, on the other hand, chose to celebrate all this unbridled success, victory after victory, by calling for tacit support of the idea that a bunch of millionaire dingbat airbus drivers who actually believe the sweet bull!!!! IALPA has been feeding them for years that they’re better than anyone else, can reasonably object to Aer Lingus management choosing to do something cleverer with all those gorgeous LHR slots than operate half empty A320’s to SNN and ORK? What a strange world it must be, to live in CamelhAir land. Just like the stickers, you and those like you will peel, fade and become irrelevant.

Poor Dermot Mannion. Imagine running a company where even some of its pilots think as you do. If he had any balls at all, he’d break IALPA once and for all, exposing them and the drooling, polyester pygmy who leads its for the incompetent boobs and self-destructive imbeciles that they are. Left to their own devices, IALPA will destroy Aer Lingus through suicide by union. Its only hope of a future now is Ryanair.

run out of latin phrases?better at the barricade with friends than in a glass office with none.good idea to put that tot o rum in the hot chockie.still a loser!!!!

ehhh welcome back Leo, your posts always add colour to the forum.

In defence of my collegues whom you call millionaires, only those who have cash have it due to outside resourses as in family etc. No millionaires have been made flying with the green team, where as in the early days with FR many an FR pilot made a stack full thru your share options....alas that was in the past. :ok:

One good thing to come out of this is that at least DM hasn't gotten into bed with MOL, well not yet anyway. Cool heads prevailed and now hopefully a result can be found where everyone wins, not just greedy managers who force the will upon others no matter what the cost.
Careful leo your not towing the party line there, even your own Messiah wants aer lingus to remain on the route, according to MOL they are very profitable.

Bearcat, you're wasting your time with responding logically. Leo is craven to the school of management that believes pilots should be merely grateful for their job and how dare they expect to actually be paid to do it (except himself of course).
His antipathy to his fellow pilot stems from his past life in which his inability to get command seems to have caused bitterness towards all that did. Ryr provided him with the much needed status, including (albeit temporarily) a training command, when no one else would, hence his bowing and scraping.
The level of begrudgery and one-up-manship in this place is truly frightening and Leo is merely the pprune face of it.

well this has turned into a very productive thread hasn't it???
on the actual talks, do you guys think ei pilots would settle for just being told that their t&c won't be impacted by belfast? if management offer to gauarantee that, and i expect they will, would the pilots strike position become untenable? assuming that management sign off on belfast t&c not influencing dub while keeping belfast t&c unchanged, that won't do anything to help the 20 or so pilots who want to move from dub to belfast and keep their own terms and conditions ....

Here's a man, who lives in country mansion, with hundreds of acres of land, herds of pedigree cattle, chauffeur driven limos with private 'taxi plates' and a net worth in the hundreds of millions - attacking the 'greed' of ordinary working people.

His own workforce live on clippings of tin, while they sweat to enrich him even further each day.

Are there words to describe the crass hypocrisy of that?

Come the revolution Mick, you'll be the first agin' the wall....

Soz there grim, i was thinking t'was our (joyful) friend from germany.

So far, so good...

Solidarity vs Transnational restrictive practices
 

Whatever the outcome of the talks, what you can be sure of is that the move towards flexibility and market-based pay won't halt here and nor should it.
Pilots, other airline workers (not necessarily airport workers) and certain folk in the medical & legal professions must some day go the way of all other luddites bent on protectionist self destruction. Why are you so scared of modern employment?
Some people watch airplanes as a hobby. Others watch restictive practices go they way they should.

Don't feed the trolls. He is more than likely of the opinion that if we all took a massive pay cut then airfares will be even less than they are now and he can travel around for nothing at our expense. Needless to say he has overlooked the fact that management will give themselves huge bonuses and possibly pass on a bit to shareholders if pushed hard enough but rest assured the travelling public won't see any of these proposed savings!

Not so. Shareholders are lucky to be allowed to buy Ryanair shares. They really don't have a right to any return on their investment, but in return they have the honour of allowing MOL to do as he deems fit with their money. Shareholders are nonetheless marginally better than stupid customers and certainly worthy of more respect than stupid employees.

The world looks different from where Leo sits. Interestingly, recent days saw the passing the "Queen of Mean" (Leona Helmsley), who had a talent for contemptuous behaviour towards employees and creative accountancy (among other attributes). Her mausoleum will reportedly cost $1.4 million. But it won't really help her legacy, which was created by her behaviour. As the Daily News (NY) put it: Now I wonder if Leo would have the slightest insight into the parallels ....

I wish the EI pilots well against this relentless attack on their pay and working conditions. I have watched with great disappointment how a career as an airline pilot has declined to such a point it is not worth the hassle anymore. The good old days are well and truly over!What happened to a bit of respect for the people who look after your safety when travelling by air. There is a plentiful supply of cheap labour now and that is all the beancounters care about. Well all this will end up biting the beancounters in the ass when all they can muster up are the dregs of society to fly their jets!

A slightly different perspective
 

I've read this thread with interest and first must express my sympathy for those affected by the EI/pilots' move.

I'm in the aviation industry, but not working for an airline. I do use air travel a lot , and in particular EI.

My issue with many of the previous posts is that they miss the key point that whether we like it or not we live in a society where we are subject to market forces. Whether EI pilots like it or not, FR has been largely responsible for a massive decrease in the cost of flying and that has stimulated (in large part) the growth in passenger numbers - particularly in Ireland. This (probably) means that there are more pilots and crew - more jobs. If you take some of the views in this thread to their ultimate conclusion, EI will go out of business and you will all end up working for FR - that is simple market forces. I am a professional too, and was once a member of a union and went on strike. Now I accept that my skills have a market value and that is what I will get. As it happens my skills (I'm a Chartered Engineer) are now in increasing demand and my salary and conditions (ie my marketability) have improved. Also, if I go and live in a different place my skills will be worth more or less depending on the market.

As a passenger, I regret the pilots' proposed action, because I had to cancel my EI flight and book with FR instead. Will that mean I do the same in future? No, because I dislike the general attitude of MOL and his cohorts. It did annoy me though...(as did seeing the 44 days/yr holiday for EI pilots!).

I accept that my job is very different to a pilot's job. But, the market will win in th end...

Well there you go Lucy, FR may be cheaper, but you chose to fly Aer Lingus.
Why?
Perhaps because COST isn't always the sole motivation in choosing a product?

Aer Lingus has a particular product, which many people seem to like - just as you do.

So does BA, Virgin, Lufthansa, KLM, Air France and many other carriers.

Why do you see the argument as a 'beat Ryanairs costs or die' one?

I don't know which Aer Lingus service you use, but Ryanair are a shorthaul airline, and Aer Lingus are a mix of Long and Short haul.
The guys in Aer Lingus who have reached the highest point of the pay scale are flying long haul, and are instructors. Their remuneration is in line with that of other Long Haul carrier instructors.

You must compare apples with apples.

Where did that figure come from? The "Meeja"?
Its rubbish. Just like the 'pilots work 18 hours a week' rubbish.

But even if it were true - what are you comparing with? Aplles with apples? Take a look in Flight International Magazine this week. There's a job there being advertised with 31 days on and 31 days off.

A long haul pilot works shift work at the back of the clock - flying through the night duties up to 16 hours long, when 'normal' people are tucked up in bed at home. They fly trans-continental services with consequent jetlag effects. They often must day-sleep in hotels, instead of resting in their own beds.
Time off for these guys has to reflect the kind of stresses they are subject to as a result, and comparing their time off with office workers is just a sick joke.

Keep flying the green flag.

I really hate comments like these. Mainly because they're just thrown out there and NEVER checked.

I can ASSURE you I get no-where NEAR 44 days. But just as an aside, can I ask you to count these days:

Days off over Christmas:
Days off over Easter:
Days off for Bank Holidays:
Days off for Mid-Terms:
Days for leave:

Ours looks like this:


Days off over Christmas: 0
Days off over Easter: 0
Days off for Bank Holidays: 0
Days off for Mid-Terms: 0
Days for leave: High 20ies to low 30 (except very senior capts).


Does that sound fair? Does it compare to you? What's that, you actually get the same or more?

Don't even start on the 18 hours a week line either....

Just beat me too it CaptKremin!

Perspective enjoined
 

I agree wholly with ihtlucy. Surely always the customer comes first?
PR, good or bad, will hit the punters right twixt the eyes. Pay & benefits above the market will be spotted (I know I'm boring) and impact on support or otherwise in the industrial struggle.
CaptK and Papa2 -when you joined, were you aware that planes fly 24/7./365(ish) and tend to get busier still during holidays? If you were, what's the problem? If you were not, then you can legitimately complain.
Oh:
Easter, New Year, XMas, May Day, Whit weekend, etc. etc. Who else works?
Police, nurses, doctors, ambulance workers, fire & rescue workers, bus drivers, taxi drivers, shop workers (yes them too), traffic wardens, council workers, ...
Not a convincing argument to me.

With the greatest of repect 900 you are not a pilot yourself. Not really much of your business. Sorry to be so blunt! Aer Lingus pilots are in an argument with the companies management not the passengers. If joe soap wants to fly with someone else then they are free to do so. Don't try to tell me that they won't be back if the ticket price isn't right.

I think 900 you're missing the point of the arguement. Capt K & P2Cwere not bemoaning the fact that pilots work unsociable hours and bank holidays.They were merely pointing out that we do, that our leave days include these (if you were to subtract these from our leave entitlement the leave we do get is similar to most jobs except it's bloody hard to get summer leave) and that because the media throw out erroneous figures like 40 odd days and absurd lies that we only work 17 hours a week, you shouldn't believe it.
Other workers work these also and are justifably compensated for it. I have no problem with that and don't understand why anyone would begrudge that we are also.
I am a professional, I have trained hard and continue to train to do the job I am employed to do. It is a highly skilled, often stressful job but I enjoy what I do. There seems to be a mixture of old fashioned Irish begrudgery (at which we excel), ignorance and a desire by some on this forum to say that pilots should allow their pay, terms and conditions to be eroded until we earn minimum wage and work at the whim of our employer.

When I visit a surgeon I will pay top dollar to get the best. If I need a solicitor I will get the best I can afford. When I fly I want to fly with a professional, safety oriented airline, not one who hires anybody as long as they are cheap.
This race to the bottom has to stop, otherwise it will reach rock bottom and then those complaining here will then complain about shoddy standards in aviation and how this could be allowed to happen and why they allow monkies to fly planes.
You pay peanuts...... You continually erode your staff's working conditions you stop getting professionally minded people.
Would anyone else on here be happy if their employer unilaterally imposed changes to AGREED working conditions without consultation? Would you accept it and not protest? Would you happily bend over and take it? If so go work for Ryanair. MOL would love to see you.

I thought EI flew 24/7/364... aren't DUB/ORK/SNN still shutdown on 25.12?

"I thought EI flew 24/7/364... aren't DUB/ORK/SNN still shutdown on 25.12? "

No. Aer Lingus is 24/7/365 on long haul.

Guys,

Unfortunately, what the posts from the likes of 900 and lucy do illustrate, is the gulf between the reality on the ground and the perceptions of joe public (even those who claim some inside knowledge) fed as they are by media simplification and management PR spin. No matter how hard you try, you're on a hiding to nothing on that front .... regardless of how many time you've had agreements reneged on.

Keep up the good fight !

Too true.
Why do we bother?
Because if we didn't try to inform the ignorant they'd believe every f**kin word they ever read, no matter how incredible.
Where sanity steps aside begrudgery just waltzes in.

I read another article today which said pilots in Aer Lingus work 10 hours per week! If this figure continues to decrease exponentially - the aircraft will be flying themselves!

But hey - they already do...we know that! The Indo told us, so it must be true! :ugh:

Seriously though - you despair for the half-witted public. Imagine all the other bull!!!! we are all fed, day and daily, by the wasters who call themselves journalists. Arseholes one and all. Professional Liars!

.... Journalists who themselves are part of a very strong union and who have been known to go on strike whenever THEIR terms and conditions are touched. :rolleyes:

when was the last time we saw a journalists' strike?? happens quite a bit in the Uk but can't remember a single example in ireland...
as for what you read in newspapers, i think generally the line they go on is 900 hours a year, which can erroneously get worked down to how every many hours a week (though it'd still come out at more than 10). basic problem is lack of comprehension between flying hours and working hours...
i remember last year there was a show a documentary on RTE one night about trainee doctors hours and they showed guys who had been on duty for 48 hours straight performing operations. the following night the guys from the pilots unions were on prime time or whatever giving out about pilots hours and the public were hugely unsympathetic. the idea was, if doctors can operate and work 120 hour weeks, what are these pilots whinging about when their weeks are so much shorter? that logic misses a crucial point though - if a sleepy surgeon drops the ball, that's a maximum of one person dead, if a pilot's overworked and messes up, you could be talking hundreds of casualties. which is why the flying public should want their pilots on teh top of their game.

*Sigh*....I did a quick Google on key words "irish journalists strike industrial action nuj" and got 127,000 hits.

The first page included the following:

Irish journalists ballot over pension scheme (hypocritical bastards!)
Belfast Telegraph journalists strike over pay dispute (Is that the "S" word!?)
Regional journalists vote for strike (Not again!)
Journalists in Northern Ireland Vote For Strike at Independent Newspapers' Flagship (Shall I stop now? Oh...just ONE more!)
Industrial action by Hacks at Tony o'Reillys cash cow (it's too good to miss!)

It was a strike by the hacks which permanently closed the Irish Press.
Seems you've not been doing your homework AirGurl. Tsk Tsk.

'Lack of comprehension'? That does ring a bell. But I think you're too generous. Try - "Willfull Misdirection", or maybe "Lazy Journalism", or maybe even "Blatant Lies"?

Oh God...*groan*....look this has been raked over a dozen times on this forum, must we do it again!
Don't forget the 'surgeons don't die in operating table accidents' argument! Its essential reading. :ugh:

capt kremin, what i said was how many journalists actually strike, not how many journalists threaten to strike and i was referring to ROI, rather than the North as I'm not that familiar with the situation up there.
So for the record, the journalists who balloted over the pension stakes did not strike (and they're the same regional journalists you mention down below), the belfast telegraph journalists are not in teh ROI (though as far as i'm aware they didn't strike either), the RNAI journalists (the regional ones again) didn't strike either, that link you have about the Indo's northern journalists is actually the same dispute as the belfast telegraph and Indo Ireland staff didn't have any industrial action either.

you've not provided me with a single example of journalists actually striking here. what you've given is a host of duplicated references none of which actually resulted in strike action. another point of clarification is that 127,000 references is a fairly meaningless number, as duplication is rampant on google, and 127,000 references could relate to 127,000 disputes or 10. the press is known for its naval gazing so i'd be willing ot venture the actual number of disputes is at the lower end of the scale.

so, as you might say yourself "sigh" or "do your homework", or whatever other condascending phrase is de rigeur with you these days. you come on here and present yourself as this judgemental bastion of accuracy, knocking down the contribution of anyone who doesnt' share your (fairly narrow) piont of view. given how critical you are of the press and their lack of research and accuracy, seems bizarre that your own research and arguments are so blatantly factually flawed.

pot. kettle. black.

Amused
 

What amuses (saddens? ) me is the thought of shareholders striking against their own company.

WideBodiedEng,

That's a good point of course. But consider this hypothetical situation for a moment. Suppose you work for a company and you buy some shares in it. Soon after that the company, which is profitable, decides that in order to increase its profits it should reduce your pay.

Now you have a dilemma. If you strike to protect your pay the value of your shares might reduce. If, on the other hand, you allow your pay to be reduced without offering any resistance your income for the rest of your career will be threatened and the company will know that they are now free to do what they like to you. What would you do?

Note: before everybody rushes in to say that Aer Lingus has not threatened to reduce the pilots' pay, this is merely a hypothetical situation. Everybody, please feel free to say what you would do.

We'll see market forces at woirk of course in the long run.

If the Terms and conditions offered by AL become so bad they will simply get no new applicants applying. It's quite simple, it's an open market and if FR or AL or any airline reduces T's and C's substantially, they won't get any relevant applicants applying for the positions. They will simply go elsewhere.

Nice one, Dublin Airgirl. Very enjoyable to watch you dismantle CaptKremin :D
Reading through the nearly 300 posts in this thread the one thing that comes out loud and clear is the arrogance of those who purport to represent the views of professional pilots. In most cases the only response they can offer is to insult and/or ridicule anyone who puts forward any opinion that differs from theirs.
Tooloose, you are quite right. I would strike if my pay was going to be reduced unless the very existence of my Company was at stake in which case I would have to reconsider. But I would not strike if my Company decides to open a new division in another jurisdiction and employ staff on different terms. Even if those terms were better than mine I would just have to grin and bear it. That's the real world out there in 2007.

The focus here is very much on the nitpicking of whether or not DUB pilots are getting the pay reduction. Which, in fact, is what management seek, as they seek to implement their "Programme for Continuous Improvement", which would see a large pay reduction for DUB pilots. Needless to say, the money they seek to take from us in DUB won't be paid to BFS pilots as it stands.
However, the bigger picture is of great importance. It's very simple, new, lower paid bases will eventually do DUB work, the DUB base will stagnate and will become the "overpaid" base, ripe for attack once again. So this situation is very much an attack on our T&Cs. Just because it isn't immediately obvious (well it is if you care to learn the lessons of corporate history) doesn't mean it won't happen.
The ryanair apologists can deny this scenario all they like, but it is exactly what happened to the DUB pilots in ryanair. Could it happen again? Of course.

The airline market doesn't work according to the classic economic models. Ryanair have demonstrated that they can get people regardless of T&C's. Little boys who want to fly will do anything until they realise after a few months that it's not quite what it cracked up to be. By then it's too late. In a career airline, not so much of a problem as people don't move on. In ryanair, big problem as on they go, to be replaced by more naive youngsters. So the experience level and conditions level stay on the floor. That's the competition, who don't value experience. By not standing up, AL will go the same way, dumbing down the profession across the board. Is that what is wanted?

According to the website prospective Captains do not have to have any jet experience for Belfast base. 1000 hours command turboprop and away you go, here is a nice new A-320. Makes FR look safe. But that's ok, the "market" said so :mad:

O yeah? So why are you hopping on the pilots for just 'threatening' to strike? Did a strike occur? More hypocrisy and double speak.

And again, for the record, the pilots did not strike either, and the new hire pilots are to be based in Belfast, which is in NI, therefore this dispute is a Cross Border one, and the reference to NI is therefore pertinent.
By the way, the NUJ represents hacks in both GB and Ireland, therefore I presume the GB and ROI members of the NUJ supported the strikes by their friends in the Belfast Telegraph (unless their self serving hypocrisy wouldn't stretch even that far!).

Actually I did, but you just didn't bother reading, did you?
I posted this link to a Wikipedia article on the Irish Press strike, where the hacks not only WENT on strike, they actually stayed out for 9 months until the newspaper finally folded! Maybe you'll read it now?


Well next, in the interests of balance, I searched Google for the key words "ireland pilots strike ialpa" and got a total of just 609 references. Compared to 127,000 I think thats illuminating for a 'fairly meaningless' number.

Whatever. :hmm:
Your argument is clearly the ignorant one.
Are you a journo? If so please note that 'condascending'(sic) has no 'a' in it. Tsk Tsk.

Its the only way they're going to get applicants. So much for the arguments that 'foreign' pilots will work for a 'fair salary'. They obviously aren't too confident about that!

great post CK. :D
Ayroplain, tell you what, go through your life grinning and bearing it. My colleagues and I still have a choice. One more time, the industrial action was about the refusal of management to comply with their own freely entered into agreements. The company is not at stake, so keep grinning and keep bearing it because with your own knocked down sense of self worth I'm betting you look like the happiest guy on Earth.

To assume that EI BFS will be devoid of applicants is somewhat naive. Whether they get the correct number of returned contracts is an entirely different matter. Clearly the management are hedging their bets 'just in case' with the turboprop red herring but I very much doubt anybody with 1000hrs left seat prop will get a real look at an A320. There will be a significant number of applicants for these positions because at the end of the day, if the package isn't right you don't have to take it. EI have said nothing on the actual package other than an inference that basic will be circa £77k. the two airbus operations in BFS/BHD don't come cheap. MYT and BMI are full of senior guys on senior money. I don't think EI will be able to match those figures. EZY basic is around £74k but the total package seems closer to £90k depending on bonuses and alike. Does anybody actually know what they are planning with regards to pensions and duty pay etc? Until these figures come out the whole debate is largely meaningless.