It is a shame to see the fat cat management driving Irelands national flag carrier into the ground for the sake of their bonuses.
In the long term does Ireland really want to see their Airline turn into a discrace like Ryanair ?

MarkD..if you don't mind can we keep this discussion to EI matters.

If you take a look at the Aer Lingus website under Investor Relations and then click on Corporate Governance you will read this.

The company is committed to maintaining the highest standards of corporate governance and the directors recognise their accountability to the company's shareholders in this regard. This statement describes how the principles of corporate governance are applied to the company and the company's compliance with the code provisions as set out in Section 1 of the Combined Code.

Do a serach for the Combined Code and you will find this.

A. DIRECTORS
A.1 The Board
Main Principle
Every company should be headed by an effective board, which is
collectively responsible for the success of the company.

Supporting Principles
The board’s role is to provide entrepreneurial leadership of the company
within a framework of prudent and effective controls which enables risk to
be assessed and managed. The board should set the company’s strategic
aims, ensure that the necessary financial and human resources are in
place for the company to meet its objectives and review management
performance. The board should set the company’s values and standards
and ensure that its obligations to its shareholders and others are
understood and met.

My question was purely related to good Corporate Governance and it relates to Board oversight of the business. 3 questions which need answers.
1) Was the Board doing it's what its supposed to be doing.
2) Was the Executive Management Team acting within delegated authority in respect of strategic decisions.
3) If the Board was not informed collectively...who was informed individually?

Powerless...probably too strong a word. However the Combined Code does states the following:
All directors must take decisions objectively in the interests of the
company.
I am not questioning this...I would just like to know if the Board was consulted, when it was consulted, how it was consulted...or whether if the Board wasn't consulted...Did the Executive Management Team act within its delegated authority.

You're having a laugh right? Your own house? Can't see the relevance mate!

Surely nobody is that dumb they can't grasp the concept of the word average?

Ah sure, lets carry on playing your wee game.

You wouldn't be trying to pull one over by comparing specific areas in the ROI with average values across NI, eh?
Noooo, not so fast you don't. := :E

See, if you want to get into specifics, what you need to do is compare specifics! Apples with Apples and all that old boy, know what I mean?

Let me illuminate you further my fuzzy friend. Are you ready?
Here goes....

Average Belfast House Price = 331,214 GBP (source: BBC website)

SORT BY: NAMEAV PRICE (£)QUARTERANNUALSALES

£389,289N/AN/AN/ANorth Down
£337,642N/AN/AN/AColeraine/ Limavady/ North Coast
£334,413N/AN/AN/A

Belfast £331,214


£317,141N/AN/AN/AAntrim/ Ballymena
£295,227N/AN/AN/ACraigavon/ Armagh
£291,584N/AN/AN/AEast Antrim
£291,400N/AN/AN/AMid Ulster
£274,950N/AN/AN/ALondonderry/ Strabane
£258,359N/AN/AN/AEnniskillen/ Fermanagh/ S. Tyrone
£253,000N/AN/AN/Ahttp://news.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif

I'll help you out a bit now and convert that to euro for ya.;)

It's 488,633.69 euro.
Which is 64,000 euro more than the Dublin price (€424,631).

Or 15% more expensive in Belfast if you prefer.

By the way - we're talking 'average' house here, not a secluded 4 bed detached on the Malone Road (where I'm certain all the new ALT Belfast based pilots would like to live, but never will on Mannions 'loser-rate' salary).

Are you catching on to this concept of averages yet? Even you can do it if you really try. :ugh:

Maybe this is some kind of ROI snobbery actually? You seem to think the poor sods up North are all living in two a penny slums, compared to 'your house' in Dublin. Wake up and smell the coffee mate, NI is no impoverished knackerland, peopled with beggars and losers who are only too happy to scramble for the crumbs that fall off the Republics table, as you seem to believe.
I can sense Belfast hackles rising - and you don't want that, believe me you don't.:suspect:

Am I missing the point here: you want to link your income to house prices?

We now have HPI deflation so not a good arguement unless you want salary deflation.

Now go back to work so I can catch my flights next week (on Wed unfortunately)...

Btw... why has this thread slowly moved towards the Shannon issue? You guys don't care about Belfast at all - you just want to "get even" with management.

btw... did you ever find it strange how pilots always think management is stupid. Then a pilot became management, so he became stupid too...keep away from MBA's folks, ye might end up understanding business rather than rosy flying jobs.

Attack me all you wish, I suspect you'll move to defensive mode now...

VT

Err, no actually.
It was yer mate ASSWAP who first raised it as a comparator.
I think its all a bit academic really.

I think he'll drop it now and run since its proven to be a losing gambit.

I can see you aren't backing that loser. So whats your angle then?
Take your best shot.:hmm:

Oh, wait, its just the time honoured "Shut up and do as you're told 'cos you don't understand the divine intricacies of 'management" gambit?
I see.

NEXT.....

mini has roots both sides of the "Border"

His Brother in Law bought a 3 bed terraced in Portadown 15 months ago for 56K ...sold it recentely for 120K... with no mods, show me that in Dublin.

Still think the strike is a hiding to nothing though...

Mooney12As a mere pax may I ask:

• If the company is brought to it's knees - how will it ever get up to continue being an employer of anyone?

• Since your message header states that your location is 'Norwich' are you a shareholder and/or employee of this Dublin based company?
  
  I only ask, as it is slightly easier to call for a company to 'be brought to it's knees' if you are not going to be be directly affected by the actions you are calling for.

Yes, I happen to agree with you PAXboy.
Mooney12 - wise up!
I'm damn sure that every ALT pilot wants to see the company growing and prospering. The Belfast base is a brilliant idea, and it should be followed by a Manchester base, a Madrid base, a Prague base, and ever onward. But NOT on Mannions scummy 'take-it-or-leave-it' terms.

100% EI pilots
 

Fair play EI pilots, I'm 100% behind your decision. Pprune wouldnt have as many bitchy post about other airlines if they were all like you standing together. AL is a career airline and I hope it always will be, this is why so many want to join. Its not a stepping stone like 95% out there.:D Hope all is settled soon with as little disruption as possible.
P.s. I dont care about house prices, If everyone keeps undercutting the industry 10yrs time we'll all be living in shoes and it will be the least of our worries!

OK People, let's look at this from the real world please.
Aerlingus floats and DM heads off on holidays...mmm! Two days later, there's a hostile bid for AerLingus and golden boy is on the beach. The share price is down to 242 and two recent vital decisions on the future of the company have been made with absolutely no major shareholder approval or mandate!

Now for all you ignorant wannabees out there, get the facts before you start to leap. Imagine I've been a Captain in Aerlingus for the last few years and dedicated my life to the airline, good times and bad. I'm from Belfast or the like and think that this might me a good opportunity for me to return home to the ole alma mater. This man is telling me that I have to resign my job, give up all I've worked for and attend assessment for Belfast..I don't think so! If I'm an F/O with 8 years experience, shouldn't I be given the option of going to BFS, or any other base for my command if there are vacancies? Isn't that progressive? Yeah, forget about me too, I don't mind if I'm walked all over, and my loyalty quashed..!

T & C's can work across the board. Look at easyJet, they hire people all over Europe on the same contract, and let them decide where they want to go. If the base is available they go, if not they wait. There are no bully boy tactics and the process is fair and transparent. This is merely a smokescreen for a greedy CEO's personal agenda, who thinks that loyal workers throughout the airline can be walked on...well they can't!

Sorry, DM you're no Michael O'Leary.

P.S Should have gone to specsavers

Gonna have to burst your bubble on some of that le rocket. Easyjet are not employing people on the same contracts across Europe. Spain has a different contract which Balpa have been fighting since inception. They are about to impose a new one in France and have indicated that this is they way they will go in future. Basically their European operation is a mess contractually as are the tax issues.
Now when it comes to Aer Lingus, I applaude the solidarity shown by the union membership. If Easyjet's members had the same bottle they would be getting much further on pay and conditions. EI's BFS plan however will be complicated by FEC legislation and you can be sure that a deal must've been done with the Assembly for them to openly endorse it. That is where the simplicity of promoting SFO's to BFS as Captains falls down.
If Capts are going to be paid the 76K quoted this morning then they are pitching in at the upper level you could expect in BFS. I'm wondering where the sting is? I have a hunch it's pension. Would it not be better to see exactly what these new Terms are first before going on a 2 day strike?
Clearly the employment law in Ireland differs widely from that in the UK as any union playing that card in the same fashion would find itself bankrupt very quickly. Sad but true. This just goes to highlight the fact that although BFS is only up the motorway, working life can be very different.
I hope both sides in this argument can reach a suitable compromise. Even Paisley and McGuinness talk these days.

EI BFS T's & C's
 

So, does anyone have the T's & C's and salary being offered by EI for BFS?

It's just that I need a good laugh :E

MOL is right. AL pilots are a load of headbangers, Imagine Unions and workers thinking they have jurisdiction over terms and conditions in other countries?

This is ridiculous, T's and C's will be different from market to market and will depend on local market conditions. AL management totally have the right to alter those conditions when setting up a base in another jurisdiction,especially in another country.

This is shameful action and yet again it's the public who will suffer. Imagine a group of shareholders deliberately setting bout to damage their own company? GUBU at it's finest.

To all the spotters; this is a professional pilots forum, not all things that are known are posted here for your entertainment.Please keep your ill informed comments to yourselves.

This is not a closed forum Waffler and is open to everybody registered with PPRuNe and you are not a moderator. So quit the policing.

oneworld22, come now, don't start acting the voice of moderation your opening line was to call us head bangers you were deliberately trying to provoke the reaction you got. You are aghast at a union thinking it has jurisdiction over foreign T&C's and yet had you bothered to get informed you might have realized we have just such an agreement. IALPA is and has always been ready to negotiate a new deal however DM and his team have decided to bypass all that. Yes we are share holders which should show you how seriously we take this move by DM. Perhaps you might now stop calling us names and if you are indeed a aviation consultant bring something new and constructive to this discussion.

oneworld22.
thankyou for your insulting comment to the Aerlingus pilots. you have obviously been following this issue closely, and have come to this informed viewpoint.

Back to the main issue. This is about enforcing mutually agreed work practice, and job security agreements. These agreements already exist, and management have chosen to set them aside when setting up the Belfast base. It is about protecting the jobs and careers of pilots already employed by Aer lingus, as well as the new pilots to be based in Belfast. Going on strike is the last option available, as management have gone ahead with recruitment without any discussion or agreeement in place.

So who actually believes that this strike will achieve anything? and what exact result, are the EI Flightdeck looking for?

(By the Way No-one has still comfirmed if the 'NEWJOINERS' are on the 'Same' Contract yet? )

It does get a little alarming when you see so many spotters and weekend warriors coming on this forum calling "professional pilots" no less on a forum titled "professional pilots rumour network" this; "pilots are a load of headbangers".

Erm, I think you might be the head banger mate. Do you not see the stupidity of your post in light of where you are posting it? ;)

I am sure you would not want the pilot in charge of your safety being a head banger would you?

I think shareholders, management, spotters and pax do not quite understand the professional life of many pilots. It might be ok for you to work 9-5 mon to fri then enjoy your weekend flying or getting a city break or even going to Thailand for a week or two then come on here and spout off whatever you think is ok. But many pilots on here are trying to save this profession from going down the toilet not so that you can go to Spain for a fiver. Because you start paying a fiver and you will get five pounds worth of service and standards will deteriorate on all fronts.

More and more individuals are shunning pilot training because of the initial costs and the deteriorating T+C's for professional pilots. Trying to get pilots to undercut each other is an abysmal business strategy and will lead to a gradual decrease in standards as it does in any other industry. If you don't want to pay the standard of pay to pilots you are going to get the best and brightest individuals shunning this industry which is going to lead to a decrease in talent or brain drain.

When are people going to understand that you have to pay for quality individuals who are going to pilot aeroplanes to a high professional standard.

Well done to the EI pilots who are setting their line in the sand on a blatant attack on their own T+C's and an attack on all professional pilots T+C's throughout Europe! You have the utmost respect and support from your fellow colleagues. :ok:

Attitude
 

Isn't it strange how some posters here have adapted the attitude: "support us or get off the forum"

DM is going to try and break the union like WW did. I've great respect for all the AL pilots I know but for shareholder interest will always come first and your benefit from the reduced terms up north in terms of cap app on the share price.

Besides, expect a few hundred lay offs within 3 years. The Irish economy is tanking faster than any of you realise.

I'm not trying to be negative - but unions will cause more lay offs as a long term average because of labour rigidity, they will normally however benefit you in the short-run.

If you don't believe me, check the house completions data out from AIB today and apply the mulitplier effect to the 2007 GNP loss from debt-deflation that will start shortly, then look at the impact of the USD on the Irish subsidaries doing quasi-illegal transfer pricing into the IFSC.

Also, look at oil prices, 2002 - $20, 2003 - $30, 2004 - $40, 2005 - $50, 2006 - $60, 2007 - $70. What can the airline sustain for 2010 (the 3 year period I mentioned)?

Guys - be thankful for very well paid jobs and don't push the boat out too much.

Ah Now here, Nobody forced anyone into this industry, thing s have changed, sure you work harder, but anybody with half, okay, a quarter a Business brain, will realise Market forces and change go hand in hand..............If you dont like it and wanna moan about your Life do it somewhere where it will be appreciated........Can someone clarify what percentage of Shamrock Pilots are Cadets? When your a cadet, your life is shamrock, on your first day 'this how we do things here', etc........but the downside to that is you are living in a tunnel......All of a Sudden its Daytime.........thats life.......

VORTIME, I am delighted you respect AL pilots. You may well be better qualified to judge the Irish economy but you haven't a clue regarding union activities. You have latched on to the fact that during boom times unions look to increase the T&C's however during the down turns they work with the management to reduce costs even down to job loss. They do this in a fair and balanced way and historically you are quite wrong, those outside the union will have poorer conditions of employment eg. FR.

Headinclouds, Please you're killing me! You are talking such complete and utter nonsense. I and many many like me were not cadets and even the cadets in most cases had lives before joining. It is really starting to sound like a case of sour grapes. We are going on strike because Aer Lingus management is not honoring our collective agreements.

Curser, I am purely giving an example of some mentalities, I would never put you all in the same frame, and appreciate your not all cadets....so apologies for that one.....

In Regards to collective agreement, if its legally binding, then your safe, if its not, I suppose you had better dip into the IALPA Legal Fees Fund and hat the Cap around again for a collection......and off to the courts you go......

Headinclouds.
Is there an issue with Aer Lingus cadets, or were you just not selected as one?

The pilot profession
 

As a mid-life career changer who has recently joined the airline pilot profession I strongly support EI pilots for protecting their terms and conditions. The way that the status and conditions of pilots is being eroded so that airlines can undercut each other on fares is insane.

Not very long ago pilots were considered well paid compared to other professions but not anymore -as an example:

Average GP salary UK Jan 2007 £118000
Average Consultant salary 2007 £126142
Average IT Consultant/Project Manager £65 000 (Salaried)
Average accountant £100k (Range £30k-£200k)

There's more at: http://www.bma.org.uk/ap.nsf/Content/ddrbev2005~annex3

Now I'd dread to think what the average airline pilot is getting nowadays but I'd be surprised if the average was much over £60k because so many of us are now working in the low cost sector. Frankly I resent having to put up with lesser terms and conditions so that my Sister in Law who works in international finance and earns £280 000 a year can fly around on the cheap)

What the public needs are capable, highly trained, motivated, well rested airline professionals at the sharp end of a 100 tonne jet with souls on board, the only question is whether they are prepared to pay for them.

Desk-pilot

Headinclouds, you certainly have your head somewhere strange!
With the greatest of respect you are either young and foolish, or just foolish. The only protection you have when agreements are broken, arbitrarly changed, etc. is dialogue (first). If there is no dialogue then Industrial Action (second) is the only way to protect yourself. Safe you most certainly are not. Unless you come from a country where Industrial Law protects agreements directly, the law is a waste of time and money.

Forget the courts. (In any case, what good is winning in court if you have lost the war by the time they get around to telling you you won?).

Aer Lingus is clear about the fact that they are going to do this without talking, despite earlier undertakings to everybody in sight. O.K. then it is down to a fight. Simple. At least the Aer Lingus pilots actually understood this fact, can pull together and made a decision with minimal fuss. Which is more than can be said for some pilot groups - where there seems to be a rush to see who can be first to give away hard won terms and conditions.

Stuff that for a way of behaving. Those of you who believe in handing over part of their salary to others can send me a PM and I will tell you how to send your money to me.

are pilots from other companies who fly on their company aircraft,operating for aer lingus while there is a strike classed as "strike breakers".Have heard a rumour that the main opposition and large investor in a.l. is contemplating supplying aircraft and crews.would be a sad day for all concerned.

Nobody has said what you have quoted someone to be saying VORTIME.....

You are perfectly entitled to post but you have to expect a tough response on this website with which we all know the title, when you attack pilots T+C's without much argument to your reasoning except to make shareholders more money. This is a pilot’s website not the FT or any other financial blog site. Use a bit of common sense please.

So if the oil price is going up you should be happy to be paying increased ticket prices for your flights to Spain, instead of trying to fund your cheap flights with airlines out of pilot’s pockets. When will the consumer take responsibility for produce and products costing a certain amount of money and not living in a false economy of under valuation?

People do know what they are getting into when they make a career choice but the job has changed quite significantly in the last 20 years or so. Just because you take a career in aviation doesn't mean you should let your T+C's slide.

Headinclouds, I can only assume that you are well travelled and as such you are the definitive voice on T+C's in the airline industry? It is good to know we have you here to answer the EI pilots and cadets questions to whether they are being daft for trying to stop an attack on their T+C's "you are living in a tunnel". These blinkered individual pilots what should we do with them? :rolleyes::rolleyes::hmm:

Sorry I thought this was PPRUNE a professional pilots website? It might not be appreciated by you but it doesn't mean it isn't right and far as I was aware nobody was moaning about their life? It sounds a bit like you are the one moaning my friend? :cool:

The pilots have absolutely nothing to worry about, its Mannion's head on the chopping board. What is he going to do? Sack them all and somehow find 500 suitably qualified pilots to replace them? I don't think so. I heard big mouth O' Leary saying management should 'face down this threat' and 'let them strike again and again if they want'.What a great idea Mick, I'm sure the lads and lasses at EI will do just that!Are you sure you still want your 25%?!:D
Best of luck to the pilots next week, were all behind you!

'With the greatest of respect you are either young and foolish, or just foolish. The only protection you have when agreements are broken, arbitrarly changed, etc. is dialogue (first). If there is no dialogue then Industrial Action (second) is the only way to protect yourself. Safe you most certainly are not. Unless you come from a country where Industrial Law protects agreements directly, the law is a waste of time and money.'

BBT Good Luck with your attitude, It stinks of insecurity and immatureness.......Hope you have a plan 'B'........

Is there anyone lower then a scab? I hope the guys crossing the picket lines are heckled and booed to within an inch of their lives. I also hope the guys filling these planes with juice refuse to do so, and respect the picket line.

http://rte.ie/news/2007/0815/aerlingus.html

Headinclouds, this is my final comment for you are now revealed to be what you are ....

There was no attitude in what I wrote, I merely pointed out that you seem to suffer from the delusion that industrial agreements are protected by the courts. In some countries they are, but not in most. Normally you protect your agreements by industrial muscle. This is a fact, and not an attitude. The issue underlying this dispute was spelled out in today's Irish Times in simple terms - I don't have a copy to hand, but the thrust was that Aer Lingus management had agreed in advance to consult on all issues and blatently failed to honour its commitment to do so. The response by IALPA was immediate. A surprise to you perhaps..... but not to others.

I do not need a "Plan B" for it is not my fight. Your powers of deduction clearly are as weak as your grasp of the issues. (What evidence was there in my post to justify concluding that I was a participant!?).

ASFKAP above you seem to suffer from the notion that No, it is because they did not honour an agreement to consult and made it clear that they would not and, indeed, that they will not even allow third party intervention to mediate an agreed outcome. (I listened to somebody from Aer Lingus dodge and weave on this on the radio today, but the refusal to have mediation is obvious enough).

Judging from the rest of your post you would not seem to be the type of person who would care about that kind of thing - an outlook and point of view to which you are, of course, entitled. But let's not make basic mistakes about what this is all about. It is really quite simple.

Asfkap,
.
I have tried to bite my tongue when reading some of the posts on this "professional" pilots forum, but for gods sake.
We are trying to prevent a further erosion of T@C s by management who will have moved on in a few years time to pastures greener(no pun intended).
As I said before if others had did this over the last 20 years of rationalisation the
the industry from a career point of view wouldn't be in the state it's in.
If other pilots operate flights during a strike the the impact of it is negated and no solution through dialogue is found.
Do you think doctors,lawyers,dentists,tradesmen would cross a picket to do the jobs of those on the line. Thats why our industry is in the state it's in.
We have nobody to blame but ourselves. So when some of us try to stand up for ourselves , kindly refrain from undermining that effort. It may indirectly serve to protect the few "professional" pilots that use this network.:ugh::ugh:

Unaffected? Management are breaching the pilot's current terms and conditions with their current plans for the BFS base. That's what it's all about!

Aer Lingus are saying that they have sub contracted 35% of flights out for the days of the strike.

Does anyone know what airlines and which Pilots are coming into Dublin for the 2 days to cross the picket lines? They should be named and shamed on here.

Good luck guys, stand firm and don't blink.

Well, as an occasional "consumer" of the "product" produced by EI, I have to wonder: just who is this "public" that thinks only of ticket price above all other considerations? Has anyone actually asked them what they want?

The last time I flew RyanAir was about 3 years ago, and the difference in price to London was huge - far more than any difference in salaries could account for. Other times before that, it was because they went places no-one else went direct e.g. Dublin-Aberdeen.

My point is: it takes more than a minor variation in price to make someone choose one over the other. You can't judge what people want solely by what they do (the airline they fly on): it's not an A/B decision on cost alone, and people have to make do with what's actually available. :ugh:

Safety concerns, bizarre daily price variations, poor transport links, delays due to poor planning (yes, we can tell when turnaround times are unrealistic), and the total trip cost, all come in to it. So what if the basic flight prices went up by 20% to keep staff happy? That would be near-invisible under the added cost of landing at a remote airport, or those bloody "fuel surcharges" that only serve to confuse customers. (You think we don't know that fuel is a major cost in running a plane, and that fuel prices have gone up? :hmm: )

You're all too busy competing on "headline price" to notice that customers are unhappy with the whole experience of planning, booking, and taking a trip that includes a flight. I don't accept the charge that "the public" are in any way responsible for this mess, and looking down your nose at the "consumer" is, to be blunt, delusional. And now you want to punish "us" for poor airline management? (Anyone got P&O Stena's number?)

Rant over. How much worse would it be if I actually had a trip to take soon? :ok:

Does anyone else find it 'interesting' that one of the routes AL are saying will be covered during the strike is the Shannon - Heathrow route? The very one that is going to be dropped to make way for the Belfast base.