I'm going to make myself really unpopular here and agree with some of the points made by oneworld, sort of.
EI have made a point of telling the pilot reps that the t&c in belfast will never be used to set the T&C at the dublin base. and they've said that belfast pilots who transfer down to dub will be 'upgraded' to dub rates. basically the idea is that dub and bds will run as totally separate bases.
it's not really the same idea as what ryanair are doing, because as far as i can see the main thing EI are focusing on is work practices not salaries. salary scales start higher, are shorter, and the management has yet to disclose the top level. the idea is that you can progress faster, but only if you work harder. and the general consensus is that the top level will be lower than the top level at dub, which is obviously going to be unpopular. but the basic principle is to move towards more of a meritocracy. so sounds like it'd be a good place to be for a young pilot starting out, but not such a good place to spend your later years. changes will come at dub too, but in reference to pci and not in ref to bds.
aer lingus have, however, made a complete mess of implementing the thing and they're certainly not world leaders at either pr or ir. they should have made it very clear from the outset that any new bases would have separate terms. they should have forged easier transfer routes for pilots who wanted to switch from dub to bds. and they could have adopted a manner less akin to a bull in a china shop.
all mistakes made, and you'd like to think they'd be learned from but ei history suggests they probably won't.
as for the pilots, they're coming off even worse than the management. for the first few days, the logic behind their grievance was totally muddy. apparenlty their letter to DM didn't even outline specifically why they were striking, it just said that they were striking. and from there it got worse and worse. the offer to withdraw from strike if EI did those three conditions looked petulant in the extreme, because they were three completely unworkable conditiosn. for it to be feasible you gotta leave the company some wiggle room, and that left room for none.
so that's my, er, rather long thoughts...

Any striking pilot who expects support from the Irish public would indeed be a fool. :cool:

Its neither needed, nor expected.

Begrudgery Rules, the lads know that.

Its priced in (to use the 'corporate' buzzword).

Just a couple of points:

I have heard the comparison between Ireland and Denmark a few times now. Apparently Denmark is more expensive than Paddyland. That would imply that if EI opened a base in Copenhagen they would offer direct entry pilots a better salary, better working conditions and a more attractive pension than that which is currently applicable to the Dublin and Cork pilots so that the package was appropriate to the local market.

ANYONE WITH HALF A BRAIN CAN SEE THAT THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN. THE LOCAL MARKET EXPLANATION FOR OFFERING LOWER T'S & C'S IN BELFAST IS NOTHING MORE THAN A COVER FOR THE MANAGEMENTS REAL AGENDA WHICH IS TO REDUCE THE COST OF EMPLOYING BOTH CURRENT AND FUTURE PILOTS.

No one can dispute that this may make good business sense FROM AN ACCOUNTING POINT OF VIEW, but it does not in any way mean that employees are duty bound to accept it and say nothing.

Regardless of your profession, if your bosses told you are required to take a 15% pay cut, not because the company is against the wall but so that they can increase profits and therefore receive bigger bonuses themselves, you would not accept it. You be a COMPLETE FOOL if you did.

For the past year EI have been asking their pilots to do exactly that. The Belfast issue is the latest addition to the current attack on existing employees, where management, after failing to coerce the pilot body into accepting their plans to dramatically reduce their TAKE HOME PAY, dramatically reduce their QUALITY OF LIFE, while subsidising the huge bonuses that are to be paid to the top level management after the event, have decided to GO AHEAD AND IMPLEMENT THEIR PLANS REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY HAVE BEEN AGREED OR NOT. AND YOU EXPECT THE PILOTS TO SIT BACK AND PONDER THE BUSINESS ACUMEN INVOLVED IN THE DECISION?? You really must be mad. Or just stupid. Or perhaps both.

I say bravo to EI pilots. Not just because I am sick to the back teeth of what is happening to the aviation industry, but because i would not find it acceptable in ANY INDUSTRY. This particular dispute is different only because the general public perceive all pilots as those who universally receive six figure salaries for a half weeks work.

There was outcry at the Irish Ferries fiasco. There was anger at Bank of Irelands plans. FUNDAMENTALY, THIS IS NO DIFFERENT.

Nice try but, they are completely different. Irish Ferries was bringing in foreign workers into the ROI and paying them in some cases 50% of Ferry workers wage. Now you're not really trying to compare the two are you??

AL are opening up a new base outside the ROI. Does Jet Airways pay their local Indian pilots in Delhi the same as their Kennedy based American pilots? What don't you listen to the post by Airgirl? The BFS base will not determine the ROI T's and C's, they are being treated separately. You can't go around guessing and claiming that this will happen when you have no proof whatsover that it ever will.

US delegation backing Aer Lingus pilots
Saturday, 18 August 2007 07:32
A US-based union, the Allied Pilots' Association, which represents American Airlines' 12,000 pilots, is sending a delegation to Ireland this weekend to support Aer Lingus pilots who are planning a 48-hour strike on Tuesday and Wednesday.
The Association's President, Lloyd Hill, said the efforts by Irish pilots to ensure that the Aer Lingus management complies with the terms of their collective bargaining agreement is a struggle for pilots worldwide. The dispute centres on the airline's opening of a new hub in Belfast.
Source:http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0818/aerlingus.html

The last paragraph of the article tells me that the strike will fail to have the desired affect. Apart from the financial penalty incurred in paying FR a wedge to 'blackleg', the public will not even notice there is a strike on. After a few week of no pay etc. the Aer Lingus pilots will be back at work. This is the sad reality of the situation.

A spokesman for Ryanair said the company has written to Aer Lingus offering the use of two of its aircraft and crew on Tuesday and Wednesday.

I expect that Ryanair pilots are telling themselves and each other that they will not do the flights from BFS but the sad truth is that they almost certainly will. The penalties imposed by RYR management if they don't fly are just too severe to consider not crossing the picket line. I do hope and pray that I am wrong but sadly, we live in interesting times.

Oneworld you don't really get it do you? BFS based pilots will eventually be used to do rotations into Dublin and Cork. The situation will then arise where there will be an overcapacity of pilots in Dublin. They will either be threatened with redundancy or offered "new" contracts which will bear a remarkable resemblance to the BFS ones.

The same scenario will hold true for whatever new base the company are thinking of setting up.

3 words spring to mind what the AI management are trying to achieve here,

Divide and Conquer

Stick with it AI pilots, once they divide you there's no going back.

Aer lingus to use two ryanair scab aircraft to operate during next weeks strike.This is the surest evidence that ryanair and its crews are the lowest of the low.The names of those operating will be noted.

Just want to say that as a member of the public with no affiliation to AL whatsover, I fully support their strike action. Screw Dm for all he's worth guys :D

As a footnote it will also make my job (ATC) a little easier :E

:mad::mad:

Oneworld you don't really get it do you? BFS based pilots will eventually be used to do rotations into Dublin and Cork. The situation will then arise where there will be an overcapacity of pilots in Dublin. They will either be threatened with redundancy or offered "new" contracts which will bear a remarkable resemblance to the BFS ones.



only problem with that argument is the company are saying it def won't happen. and by the sounds of it, they'd be wiling to sign an agreement to that effect.
but what you're really missing here is the wider point, pci. changes to the dub base are coming anyway and were coming long before anyone mentioned the belfast word. by the time anyone actually transfers between dub and belfast chances are the stark differences in the t&c won't be as stark anymore...what EI have essentially tried to do is implement their entire pilots' pci wish list in belfast. pci is coming to dub too, but they probably won't get it through in as pure a form. as far as i can see, pci is what this dispute is really about, not belfast. if the pilots could be a bit clearer about what it was they were actually objecting to, and they have been appalling unclear, they might do better in the public support stakes.

Oneworld22, I do not find your argument convincing nor do I find your condescending tone helpful.
Are you suggesting that having 1. put in place a lower cost base in Belfast 2. disregarded all previous agreements that don't fit with the new business model and with the ability to operate these aircraft out of Dublin (thereby creating a surplus) that DM will now say " thats it, thats as far as I wanted to go, sure I was only seeing if it would work."
I do understand that you have been playing devils advocate however it is time to either provide a plausible alternative scenario / course of action or accept what 480 dedicated professionals (not fools,head bangers or peacocks) have come to realize-this is a union busting exercise.

Dublin Airgirl, Where have you been getting your information? When did DM say it wouldn't happen? As for signing a document, we can't even get them to talk, let alone sign something and just to refresh your memory we are going on strike because they are not honoring previously signed documents.

PCI is indeed a wish list we have had this same wish list for many many years with many many titles, I really don't know how to make it clearer " 1 job, 1 seniority list, 1 contract"

ow22,you know nothing of the irish ferries fiasco.if you did you would not be on here offering your self righteous bull!!!!.ask the latvians on those ships now who have already had their terms and conditions savaged.talk to the few irish who chose to retain their jobs on those ships and thus retain their their pensions.how they were put on all the unpopular duties,got the !!!! end of the stick,e.t.c. until they were forced to leave the company,leaving the way open for the exploitation of foreign european workers.what has irish ferries saved,nothing because most people with any self respect would not set foot on their !!!! buckets.Rothwell a self confessed mol brown noser.one thing is consistent in that all these supposed c.e.o's have no individual or original ideas.all they can do is plagiarise the actions of others.

My utmost respect to those pilots in aer lingus,who are an example to all pilots.

Dublin Airgirl, just reread your post and need to clarify one more point there are no transfers to Belfast, we specifically asked for this and the answer was an emphatic no. Dublin pilots must apply for the Belfast jobs through the advertised process and then if successful resign their position in Dublin and start in Belfast on lower T&C's. Now think, does it sound like anyone could go for this or has DM engineered this strike?

yeah, i know there are no transfers at the moment, what i meant was that people had been making the point previously that there could eventually be transfers between the bases and if that were to happen the company has said that everyone at the same base would be paid on the same scale, regardless of the terms and conditions of their original belfast. that's all i meant.
as for dm's comments on belfast conditions not affecting dublin ones, that's been recorded several times in this week's national media.

:OSo naive it's actually kinda sweet!

(Sorry, maybe it's just my views are coloured by previous management dealings.) We already have agreements. That's why were on strike. Management only accept the bits that suit them. Don't worry you'll soon see what kind of company you work for. Your pilot colleagues are the ONLY people who care about you.

Please note: Ryanair pilots are NOT scabs.

IALPA has formally asked all IFALPA member associations to co-operate fully with their employers in operating additional/replacement services in/out of Ireland during the strike. This obviously includes our own members in Ryanair!

Airgirl. This is the company that has a collective binding agreement with its Dublin and Cork pilots. So if it has an agreement with them all then why do you think they decided to draft up new terms and conditions for the 150 or so new pilots that were recruited in the last year or so. Included within these new T&C's was the little matter of paying for your own A320 type rating as well as a higher number of hours before performance pay kicked in. At no time did the company go to the union and try and negotiate. Instead it just pulled out the new contract for the new joiners to sign when they got the handshake and welcome aboard speech at head office. This is just one of a myriad of other issues that the pilots are striking over.

Now surely if management were to be considered truthful then they wouldn't pull stunts like that now would they? But they do and as stated above they continually cherry pick what they want and change T&C's at will. Hence why the pilot body will not trust them as far as they can throw them.

This is the surest evidence that ryanair and its crews are the lowest of the low.

err thanks for that Grim , i presume you include yourself in this description then?

As for RYR opperating the flights I would imagine that it is all total BS, surely the Lingus management would use any other company on earth to cover flights as opposed to giving it to RYR and letting MOL score some major publicity. Even cancelling the flights would appeal more.

As for the main issue, it is bound to lead to a future split and gradual reduction of T&C's. So good luck to all Aer Lingus pilots, if you guys can't make a stand then theres no hope for the rest of us!!!

Taken from RTE,

Aer Lingus to use Ryanair planes during strike

Saturday, 18 August 2007 10:31

Aer Lingus has accepted Ryanair's offer of two planes to provide cover for the 48-hour strike planned by pilots for next Tuesday and Wednesday.
A spokesman for Aer Lingus said the company will pay full commercial rate for the planes.
Aer Lingus said the owner of the planes they lease will also provide the crew.

Aer Lingus Chief Executive, Dermot Mannion, said earlier that there would be no going back on the decision for now. He also issued a direct appeal to Aer Lingus pilots not to go ahead with next week's strike.

Seems a tad bit odd and ironic that they choose to except ryanair's offer considering they dont exactly see eye to eye and it was ryanair who suggested the EGM . O'Leary must be loving this.....

How,how are there going to be transfers between the bases soon airgirl?!?

All pilots paid the same at a base. Aircraft will be moved out of Dublin and based at Belfast, Gatwick, .... and Dublin will absolutely lose aircraft to these bases (because it will have a higher cost base). No more aircraft means no more commands, jobs or career prospects in Dublin ever. There will never be an opportunity to bid back to Dublin as it will for ever be in surplus and fighting a rear guard action to protect its own T&C's. Result, the net degradation of T&C's at Aer Lingus.

As to your last point. It is simply not true. DM has not committed to say it will have no effect because he knows it to be incorrect he is doing this to reduce his cost base. Now wake up, no one wants this strike but DM and if we are to succeed then all of us need to be resolute. Hold the line, airgirl.

DM has finally lost the plot well and truly. I am sure MOL must be wringing his hands together right now.

I bet the two aircraft are already in at the paint shop being sign written with a nice anti AL slogan. Perhaps leaflets to be handed out to the affected pax offering them discounted fares for life. Just like his millionth pax got all those years ago (not). You couldn't have written the script better and DM has taken it hook line and sinker. Its almost laughable if it wasn't so sad that this bloke was in charge of the airline.

Ryanair pilots
 

Just a thing of note for those debating the FR "assistance":

IALPA asked all IFALPA pilot associations to extend full co-operation to their employers in putting on extra service in/out of Ireland on Tuesday and Wednesday next. This includes IALPA members in FR.

I do accept it will be interesting to discover where those crews are being sourced within FR...

...either way the only way the EI pilots will win is to stick together!!!!

Maybe we need another thread for this issue? The question of what happens if and when the Fr aircraft pitch up to do the Aer Lingus flights is an interesting one. There will be no need to cross picket lines as the aircraft will simply fly in from elsewhere, pick up the PAx and depart for LHR or wherever. I can't see how this can be stopped.
Sad to say, there will be enough FR pilots to man these flights, ad infinitum. Remember, most of them are not even in a union and no matter how much they dislike the idea, they will do as they are told, as they always have done in the past.
RYR are probably in talks with easyJet management too, if the rumours about a strike in orangeland are true!
God help us all!

Good Luck Lads
 

All the crews I bump into around Asia, think this is a righteous stand. There is an overwhelming deferential respect for the EI pilot group and this action.

I'm looking forward to me days off in Ireland from the Asian grind and arrive back in DUB (I hope!) on Tuesday night, where and when can I stand with the lads and show some support?

Respect from the deep blue sea....

Thanks for the support.

If you are in Dublin, you can find a map to the IALPA office (A good place to start) by looking at the bottom of the contact page on the IALPA website

http://www.ialpa.net/contact.html

the grim repa:

"Aer lingus to use two ryanair scab aircraft to operate during next weeks (sic) strike".

"The names of those operating will be noted".

I think you need to revise your definition of scab. To my mind, the definition of scab would be an Aer Lingus pilot who crossed an official Aer Lingus picket line or else a pilot, not employed by Aer Lingus, who crossed the line to sit in an Aer Lingus pilot's seat in an Aer Lingus aircraft.

How you can use the term for wet lease aircraft and crew is beyond me. You may remember the Australian pilots' strike of 1989? Ansett had to wet lease aircraft from all over the world including some from Britannia for example. Are you telling me that the Britannia crews were scabs for flying their own aircraft on a wet lease? As, I am sure you are well aware, Britannia is a BALPA company. Maybe they don't agree with your definition either?

I have never worked for Britannia, Ryanair or Aer Lingus but I think we should get our definitions right.

Has it ever occured to you that the more wet leasing that Aer Lingus have to do the better? It is a very expensive exercise and usually gets them back to the negotiating table faster.

Finally, why should you note the names of wet leasing pilots? Are you planning to take them down a dark alley in Dublin and duff them up? If so, I think you might need some help.

I hear O'L is sourcing IALPA FR members to crew the AL flights with IALPA FR reserves.....JEEZ this this has all the ingredients of a blood bath.

Ah it all makes sense. MOL must be concerned that with the history of the DUB based FR guys joining IALPA/REPA and taking him to the labour court that if the AL pilots were successful then he might have more on his hands to deal with later on. Hence use the FR IALPA guys and try and get a quick score with the media. Such sad little games.

OW22, you are quite obviously blinkered as again you answer nothing which An Paddy Eile has put to you. I might be a little presumptuous but I think you have no Legacy carrier experience and as such you have never had T+C's that are worth protecting. You have only tried to discredit part of the post while the thrust of the post is quite obviously right.

It seems from your type of posting that you might be working for a Irish contract agency. Do you not see that a good proportion of pilots do not want to contract and want fair and well set out T+C's.

Anyway to answer your points;

BFS and DUB is the same local market. There is realistically no difference. This point has already been answered anyway by An Paddy Eile.

Sigh... Yes pilots in EI are having their T+C's attacked. Why can't the BFS base be under the same T+C's? It is the same market and it is regulated and contracted under Irish law so why does it not follow the same conditions? Again it has no bearing of where the base is. A base in Stockholm would be more expensive than Cork but you get paid the company rate. If you don't like it you don't go to that base, simple.

I'm not emotional at all to this matter, but I do see the dangers of what this type of management practice can do to pilots and their jobs and profession. On the matter of proof, I have given the example of FR and Easy with relation to Easy's Spanish contracts and FR's multi base, multi contract drive down on base by base costs and T+C's. Look at the current pay deal mess FR is on with multiple contracts and agreement after agreements being broken by management. Hence the court cases FR currently have ongoing with its staff and past cases. Both these companies are doing this type of practice to try and drive down labour costs. It in turn has an affect on the other bases. I have seen this first hand. The management play each base off against the other. I understand where you are coming from in some respect OW22 but as somebody who is currently in the middle and who is and has experienced this type of behaviour and action. It is a defined strategy to lower T+C's across the board. As a retired pilot you must be able to see that people are more closely involved in this and can see it for exactly what it is, more so than yourself? Pilots are posting here who have prior experiences of this strategy. What is your problem with believing your past fellow colleagues who are telling you that this is exactly what is happening? :(

I have answered that above. I am not guessing and have seen it first hand. This strategy has been played out on me and other colleagues.

Answering some of dublingirls comments;

This is exactly the same as what FR is doing. You get paid a little more at the start so it leads to you enjoying the base for quick short term and even possibly medium term gain but in the long run you will suffer greatly. This deal seeks to entice you to stay but there are no good viable long terms prospects with a pension being a bi-word for a joke. You also don't necessarily progress quicker the harder you work. Also who decides who is working harder and to a better quality? What justifies promotion etc? We will all be somewhere in our latter years dublingirl and we should all realise that. This is a point in life where we will all be. This is the point where you will be preparing for your even later years but now without the ability or resources to do this as you would have liked. :{ There is also the point that this is not just about wages. There is a lot more to T+C's than your pay. Which is what quite a bit of this argument is about.

I will ask again what is the problem with offering the same T+C's as the rest of the company?

Will that be the same bit of paper the old agreement was signed on? Because they just ripped that up and threw it in the bin......:\ If they do not stick to an agreement how can you trust them on another agreement? :confused:

They are not coming anyway if the pilots can help it. This is what pilots on here are pointing out and hence why EI pilots are striking. :ugh: This is a blatant attack by management on current DUB T+C's. It is quite clear to what either sides reasons for action is. ;)

They are not the same market. They have totally different economic realities and it wasn't addressed/ You can get a 4 bedroom house in Belfast for £215K or EUR316!! And that is in an upcoming area. Do you know what you would pay for that house in Dublin?

Even in an upmarket area a 5 bed house is £400K or EUR588....! Do you know what a 5 bed house would cost in Castleknock, Malahide, Portmarnock even in Swords...? That is a massive difference between the two areas just on house costs. Have you ever seen the difference between the prices of cars between here and the UK? There is a massive difference.

Are you really asking that?? So again, a US multinational should have exactly the same terms of employment offered here as they do in the US? Even though there is a different tax system, fiscal environment etc etc??

Again you're trying to excuse the actions here of AL pilots when there is no excuse for this. Simplistic guessing as to what might happen in the future....

And yet again, tumbleweed blows through this thread when the word "Customers" is mentioned. No pilot here seems willing to discuss what it means to them or their possible future attitude to AL. Amazing.

AL does not exist simply for your benefits and your pay packet.

All this talk of house prices is very enlightening yet you still seem to fail to grasp the whole crux of the issue. That is the management of AL are going to one day undermine the entire pilot body of the airline and give them pay cuts if they are let away now.

From your profile it says you are a retired pilot. Perhaps you got out when the going was good and its a case of I am alright jack thanks. The same thing happened at BA when the pension was closed to new joiners. The old timers looked after themselves. All the AL pilots are fighting for is a fair deal for everyone, not a pay cut.

“Simplistic guessing”. Do you not trust your fellow pilots when they tell you something is happening to them or not? It is currently happening with other companies.... You might want to remove your friends and family from EI pilots if you can not trust them then….

If you choose to believe me or not matters little to the argument it just shows your stance to be untenable that CURRENT pilots are experiencing these phenomena. I find this quite sad as somebody else has said "you have fallen a long way". Again you choose not to answer anything put to you about FR or Easy or any other company for that matter!!!

This is the same local market and make no bones about that. This is also not just about wages it has everything to do with rostering agreements and many other things contained under T+C's as a whole........ Just on the point of local markets, I think it was quite well dealt with on post 45 and 56 of this thread. People understand what the implications are of getting cheap labour in to do the same job in the same "local market".

You must be able to understand globalism and global economics even on a basic level..... Surely you know that there is in many ways no "local markets", everything will affect each other. Even China is starting to increase pay levels as you have stated. Primarily because EU levels are so high so it has an effect on companies in China to increase pay levels to try to increase the amount of expats to crew a/c on order.

So would you agree that pilots in Stockholm should be paid more than Cork? Still not answered and not likely to be I think!

No it does not but it presumably puts food on pilots table!!! Anyone with half a brain cell understands what and how an airline affects an economy and what the effect of a strike will have on the economy and customer relations. Do you not think people do not consider this when making such a decision as extreme as resorting to strike action? Such a decision is not taken lightly.

Some customers might understand that EI pilots will not let there T+C's go down the toilet like many other companies have done and that the race to the bottom will be stopped for the benefit of all pilots... Does the consumer understand what ethical business practices are?

How much legacy experience did you say you had again? :}

VORTIME; Flight decks are more automated to increase and improve safety not to reduce pilot salaries and T+C's..... :=

Oneworld22 I quoted you in post 172:

And I asked you the following question:

You replied (post 174) by giving me a link to an IALPA Press Release. I have read the Press Release and it does not say what you stated. Can you please specify where it says what you claim?

Well BBT, it should be quite clear what the IALPA press release is stating, That after the IPO the cork base was to be given the same T's and C's as the DUB base and therefore that's what IALPA and co are going on with regards to BFS, a base in another country! And didn't the Flynn Report recommend that AL should be allowed to open new bases outside the Republic on local pay and conditions?

Alibaba, FR opening bases elsewhere in Europe has NOT driven down T's and C's at DUB.

You guys can continue to throw up smokescreens till the cows come home. You're like a Jackal pack, descending on anyone who dares disagree with you. And your mode of argument is to throw up red herrings everywhere. Giving us simplistic guesses at what might happen in the future. That's a ridiculous way to conduct labour relations.

And food grief, he mantions Customers but only to chastise them about undertsanfing "Ethical" business practices!! :p
Your hysterical meandering and simplistic guesswork and selfishness is leading this airline down the toilet. Reading some of the hysteria here, you'd swear Mannion was proposing 50% pay cuts and a 20% increase in hours or something!

Get a grip lads.

A pay cut is a pay cut. Is that simplistic enough for you?

Yes it has ask any FR pilot what happened in 2004 and how the bases are played off against each other. It is simplistic but it works to the detriment of everyone else.

Have you thought that the majority of posters might not agree with your point of view on this OW? Active professional pilots no less, in current airline employment. Unlike yourself….

Again you don't answer questions. Do you have a problem with answering them? :\

What pay cut???

And you don't answer questions on your customers. Because you don't give a toss about them. This is a about your selfishness and your willingness to do untold damage to your employer over a totally minor issue like slightly differing conditions on a base in another country,

It's a disgraceful way to behave towards your employer and your customers and again, I can tell you you have 0 public support on this. Yet you guys don't seem to care about that either...

Oneworld22, it may be what IALPA is going on about is clear (in your interpretation), but it is not what it says. Your interpretation is inconsistent with the facts as I understand them (and I posted above on the basis of reports in the Irish Times). The key fact seems to be that an argeement by Aer Lingus to engage in talks was broken - and I read the IALPA statement to which you referred me as being entirely consistent with that.

I prefer the Irish Times to your interpretations. And you certainly are not short of interpretations and opinionated, but questionable, assertions.