Jimmy, the sauce hours are usually best kept to 9pm +

:}

FP

Comment moved.

Isn't LHC a shared account between MOL and one/+ of his senior pilot(s)?

Anyway...:/

How about the progress of discussions raging within AL about the relationship between BFS crews and DUB? Any news there?

FP

Entering a critical stage now...Seems like the airline will not budge from it's plans to hire the Belfast crews.

Side Show Dwarf.
 

While your petty squabble continues, as riveting as watching paint dry, the real story develops apace. Looks like its time for gloves off in Dublin.

Should be fun to watch.

How sad, though, to think that IALPA is going to be instrumental in Aer Lingus ending up here.

That means 1100 girls and guys applied without knowing the conditions.:ugh:
All my support to the old Aerlingus's chaps.:ok:
This bunch of desesperados or workingfornothing pilots erzats start pissing me of.:mad:
They started by paying for their type rating then working for nothing to build hours and afterwards accepting poor conditions to jump on the lefthand seat.
This will be my advice to senior managers: Watch your six, these guys will soon propose their services to get your position...
Ban on all over the World for them is the only and ultimate solution.
No fight, no glory!
An old fashion Captain

This poster is having trouble understanding the issues obviously.
Hiring Belfast crews is not the issue - their CONTRACT is the issue.

The poster (a non-pilot, on a pilots website!) denounced IALPA for threatening a strike before talking. Even though IALPA asked for talks and were refused by ALT!

Now the two sides are talking (the union backed down and allowed recruitment to continue during talks) and the chances are high the talks will fail because - more than likely - ALT will not compromise.

So, having backed down from a strike, compromised on talks arrangements, negotiated for 2 weeks - what will the posters reaction be when the pilots are forced to take industrial action again?
I guess he'll revert to type and blame the IALPA guys!

Talking is good, but sometimes its just a waste of effort, and a strategy for delaying the inevitable.

LHC is bawling for some attention.
Bugger off Leo.
Ever been banned?

That's not the issue Kremin, the airline's position was they did not have to talk prior to opening a new base outside the country and you damn well know it.

So now the talks are going on. If they airline goes ahead with hiring the crews on their terms according to local conditions, where does that leave everybody? After all the airline will have "talked" by then to the union.

Or does "talk" in pilot union speak mean the airline has to follow what the workers are telling them to do?! You forget who is running the airline here Kremin, it ain't you guys and the airline is under no obligation to follow diktats from a group of workers as to how the airline should operate.

I'll continue to post here as a retired pilot Kremin and there ain't a damn thing you can do about it and I know how that is just driving you mad.

But this is the real word Kremin, you seem to despise anyone who holds an alternative viewpoint to yours and seek to degrade them and throw hissy fits demanding they be banned!

You should be busy setting up this rivetting sounding pilots only forum I would have thought by now??

The above poster seems to forget that an airline needs pilots.
Without pilots to fly the aircraft, there is no airline, nothing to 'Manage'. End of story.

The pilots in an airline - just like all employees - have a legal and moral right to withdraw their labour when pushed to the limits by contract breaches.

This non-airline pilot poster thinks 'talks' mean a negotiated surrender by pilots. Patently he misunderstands the strength of conviction, and strength of purpose of the IALPA pilots.

The poster patently lacks the backbone necessary for survival in the modern airline industry, so its just as well he's out of it. Lucky man.

That's not the issue OneWorld22. Aer Lingus management were side stepping OUR COLLECTIVE AGREEMENTS when they wanted to implement a Belfast base using DEC's and the likes, agreements they voluntarily signed up to, and promised would be kept pre-IPO - and YOU damn well know it.

We have no problems living in the real world. We also would have no problems with Belfast AT ALL, if our contracts/agreements were honoured like they should be.

No papa2andcharlie, those agreements were for bases in the Republic of Ireland.

Belfast was never mentioned in prior discussions you had with AL management.

Kremin, you obviously don't fully realise the implications of militant behaviour like this, you could be threatening the very survival of the airline itself if prolonged action were taken over a simple issue of T's and C's for a base outside this jurisdiction. There are other groups who also have a stakeholding in AL, it's not just the pilots. Have you consulted with the other groups? All your other co-workers in AL to see how they feel about this? You're threatening their livliehoods as well you know...

But keep with the jibes, it's water off a ducks back.

papa2andcharlie, don't waste your time discussing Contractual obligations with that poster. He has already informed us on this very thread that he considers it acceptable to break Contractual obligations, thus inferring that he 'accepts' lying, and condones intentional breaches of faith.

He is clearly a dishonest individual without a shred of honour or self-respect. A self professed lover of lies, and a Troll of the lowest order.

Now he claims he is intimately familiar with the minutiae of Aer Lingus' SCOPE agreement!
Plainly, he is lying yet again, because plainly he is ignorant of the facts and utterly wrong. Yet he continues to spoof, spin, and lie.
How sick is that? Is the man delusional?

In any case, it wouldn't matrer to him what the SCOPE agreement said, as we can read in his own words below:

Kepp it coming Kremin. You're getting more hysterical by the minute.

I stated the above in the context that agreements do get broken and have done with the Labour Courts approval in certain situations. It's a fact of life.

And here you are still dodging the wider picture. Have you considered the implications of potential action on the other workers of Aer Lingus? Have you looked at the wider picture? A man who you detest is banging on the door of Aer Lingus. Your company already had to pay a fortune defending itself against his hostile attack and now you want to dictate that the airline cannot in fact open a new base and hire new pilots based on terms and conditons applicable to the local market, something any company should be able to do.

You've already shown you have a causal disregard for your customers Kremin, the people who ultimately keep your airline in business. Do you disregard the other workers so casually as well? Is this just about you? Do you not look at anybody else?

Your arrogance is astounding.

Seeing as it is obvious you have no idea what is provided for in our Job/Work Security agreement, (freely negotiated and signed up to by the company) nor our Seniority agreement (likewise) - statements like

" No papa2andcharlie, those agreements were for bases in the Republic of Ireland."

are farcical.

In fact, the sole purpose of your comments on this thread is now plain for all to see. You are a Troll who will argue for the sake of it, not for the valuable contribution it can provide.

There's no point in trying to explain ourselves any more to people who are doing the online equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears. You are refusing to listen or understand, instead repeating the rhetoric of "doesn't apply outside Ireland". Too bad, if you actually took some time to look into the full issue, (rather than banging the keyboard with your forehead every 5 mins), you may understand what this is all about.

"Belfast = Uk = Not Ireland = Nothing you can do about it" is far to simplistic for someone allegedly retired from this industry. It may make good reading in the Indo for the unwashed masses - but the reality is far from this stance.

I'm glad I'll never have the pleasure of your company in my flightdeck. I'd be afraid to turn my back.


* Edited to say that this was written before the last 2 posts, so may seem like I was repeating Capt Kremin, I'm not as fast a typer as you two are. :)

Do you think the Management were looking at anyone else when decided to award large share bonuses if they cut the T&C from workers?

Cant have it both ways OneWorld. If you claim Management can steam roll over agreements because it suits them at that time, then what's good for the goose...

How is it arrogance??

Lets look at the facts here.

Are your T's and C's under threat here in the ROI? NO

Is management asking you to take a pay cut? NO

Is management trying to alter your work practices? NO

The are simply trying to set up a base in another jurisdiction and hire crews under local conditions.

Yet in spite of all this, you are willing to ground your airline. The lost revenue, the screwing your customers, many of whom may never return and not just out of anger but because they will be unsure about using AL again if this action continues and also the potential damage this could do to your fellow workers.

I am painting the other side of the picture. And yet somehow this constitutes "trolling"!


(*internet chatroom rule No. 156. When someone disagrees with your viewpoint, accuse them of trolling)



It beggars belief.

Your head must be spinning from repeating yourself all day. What's even funnier is that you're not getting the right parts.

So to help you for the very last time, I'm going to put this into a small list.

1) The Job and Work security agreement does not apply to ROI pilots.
2) The Seniority Agreement does not apply to ROI pilots.

3) The Job and Work security agreement applies to an Aer Lingus pilot.
4) The Seniority Agreement applies to an Aer Lingus pilot.

5) A Belfast/Warsaw/Birmingham Aer Lingus pilot is just that. An Aer Lingus Pilot.

6) These agreements apply because they are between the company and its Pilots. Not between ROI pilots and the company. (If you had these docs you would have seen this).

7) Management have decided that it doesn't suit this time to follow these agreements, so are trying to get around them.
8) We will do what we have to, to prevent this.


Point 8 seems to be your problem. Apparently we should just sit back, shrug the shoulders and say "tis was grand in the old days.....such is life".

To be frank - I really DON'T care what you, a retired pilot thinks about all of this, your concern or lack of it, won't directly effect me.

However I do like to ensure that the drivel on here spouted by people without the correct info, is shown to be what it is....just drivel.

Enjoy your merry go round. It looks like your the only one on it.

Well said P2C.

If this thing gets in what's to stop the rostering of BFS crews on W patterns BFS-LHR-DUB-LHR-BFS? Or the reserving of all the LHR/ORK night stops for BFS based crews? Then over time maybe move one of the 330s to BFS?

And still the questions go unanswered! The other Aer Lingus workers, the customers etc etc all discarded...


It DOES apply to ROI pilots because AL only had ROI bases when you negotiated. You can't turn around when the airline opens up a base in another country and somehow claim that ROI agreements negotiated by ROI unions have validity in other countries! SIPTU/IMPACT/MANDATE etc etc have no authority in other countries. Pretending that somehow they do, doesn't make it so.

Wrong again. Prior to Belfast you only had ROI pilots. Surely common sense dictates that the opening of a new base starts the whole thing off again.

What kind of statement is that?? You telling me that Microsoft workers earn the same wage and earn the same conditions in Redmond as they do in other countries?!

Sorry lads, you're actually the only ones on this particular merry go round. In the court of public opinion, nobody is with you on this. And if this is really all you got, then you really are in trouble.

You don't care what I and other shareholders think, so why should we all care what you think? You want to bring this airline down, go right ahead.

Does anyone know at exactly what age senility sets in?
Are retired pilots more prone to it?

P2C, will you please clarify things for the aged Troll above? I refuse to communicate with it myself.

It appears to have trouble with english. In truth I think you need to be more explicit when wording things for it. You can try explaining that the agreement applies to ALL Aer Lingus pilots, wherever they live or work. Is that clear enough do you think? Will it get it?
Who knows?

The guys who designed the agreement were (thank Christ) a tad smarter and more foresighted than the has-been above. They framed it so well that Mannion and his cohorts have no way round it - so they've chosen to just drive through it. Bad move.

You can tell Mr.Alzheimers that an airline run on those grounds isn't worth having. There are plenty of pilot jobs like that out there already if you want 'em, and besides, people will still need to fly in and out of Ireland next week.
Its Mannions head thats on the chopping block, not yours.

IMO one world is an AL HOB plant paid to keep spewing out the same mantra.....not for a minute do i believe s/he is a retired pilot.....

ow22 - aer lingus pilots are not alone.we at ryanair support their stance fully,because we can see that management wants to drag them down into the the same type of cesspool that exists at fr.we can also see that any reduction in terms and conditions in one company has a detrimental knock on effect in other companies.that is one of the reasons why mol wants aer lingus out of the way so he can further drive down crew costs.it is clear that mol's meddling is ultimately for his and no others gain.for all pilots who think they are untouchable and reducing terms and conditions are market driven,you will one day have your eyes opened for you,what will you see.think about it!

OW22

easyJet pilots fly on one AOC and all operate G registered aircraft. Up until very recently, thay all signed the same contract, regardless of base or the local economy. So yes, a pilot in Glasgow got the same pay as a pilot in Gatwick, or paris, or Berlin etc. They all worked for one company under one contract. They all get the same holidays, bonus and days off. Nobody is treated any different, be it in the UK or mainland europe, regardless of the local economy.
Recently, easyJet went to madrid and yes, the spanish government said they wanted their cut of taxes and social security. easyJet produced a contract and BALPA, yes BALPA told all new joiners and current employees not to go near madrid or sign anything as it had not been union approved. Aghast...I hear you exclaim! A British union, negotiate on behalf of a spanish base, for spanish local terms and conditions..how dare they! well they did. As a result, there is a british pilot union negotiated contract, given to spain based pilots. This contract is fair and transparent, and in fact has a slighty higher basic salary when GB£ converted.
The reason BALPA negotiated, is because eayJet is on a British AOC and is UK based. It is recognised as the appropriate union and selected by easyJet management. These are all facts. That is why IALPA is, and will continue to be the Aerlingus pilots union, for all Aerlingus pilots, be it in paris, berlin, london or dare I say it Belfast.

Le Rocket,

You took the words right out of my mouth.
Nail well and truly hit on the head though! :ok:

BR.

Dim and Dumber.
 

What an unpleasant fellow you are, CaptKremin. Have you not discovered in your many, many years as a superior airline pilot, in between all those prostate massages from the unions sustaining your delusion, that you can get your point across without resorting to insult and buffoonery? If I didn’t know better, your personality as revealed here would lead one to believe you might be an Australian. Is that right, CaptKremin?

As the flying world now knows following the union driven fiasco of 1989 that resulted in all those bitter and twisted, southseas whining nincompoops being scattered to the four winds, Australians in general and pilots in particular, are famous for covering the distance from reasonable to reactionary radical at light speed. You make my point perfectly, for which thanks. OneWord22 makes reasonable arguments to my mind, which you meet with insult and derision. It was ever thus.

You just don’t seem to quite grasp the fact that because Aer Lingus is no longer free to suckle endlessly at the teat of the Irish State, it needs to pursue commercial success in order to survive. As shocking and unpalatable as this fundamental truth may be to an incorrigible union diehard such as yourself, there’s no escaping it. Aer Lingus is sitting on a gold mine, but poor Dermot’s efforts to run the company properly are being thwarted on several fronts.

First of all, short haul is haemorrhaging cash. Long Haul makes lots of lovely money. Lets pause there for a moment for that to sink in, shall we? Short bad, Long good. As much as this wisdom applies equally to the unfortunate, plastic numbskull that leads your turgid, moribund organisation IALPA, its basic maths I wish to celebrate with you now.

Aer Lingus has certainly made great strides in attracting customers by lowering its fares in a forlorn attempt at becoming a sort of lime-green version of Ryanair. Great stuff, so far. This demonstrates the other fundamental truth that seems to have escaped you; the CUSTOMER (remember them?) determines success or failure.

The only problem with this plan, though, is that you can’t compete with a monstrously successful airline like Ryanair by simply lowering fares when your cost base is high. You can compete on fares, but not on cost. This, my dear, has only one outcome in the long view, and I’m afraid it’s not a happy one.

Secondly, Dermot has to somehow massage all those bearded troglodytes of SIPTU into realising that their cash cow needs to transform itself into a racehorse, and in double quick time whilst fending off perfectly reasonable requests from its largest shareholder, or to put it another way, from Ryanair, the organisation who OWNS 30 percent of you. Add to this the interference, visible and not, of a bruised and politically wary Taoiseach, and poor Dermot is reaching for the extra strength aspirin…again.

Fundamentals of economics notwithstanding, the really tragic thing to watch from the safety of distance, is the sheer, unbridled stupidity and self-serving hubris with which you continue to pursue the downfall of your airline by means of suicide by union. The BFS base is a reasonable idea. You have nothing, absolutely nothing to say about it by way of complaint. Your fur-lined bubble is maintained status quo anti whilst your airline struggles to survive in a brutal, unforgiving market against highly able competitors who know what they’re doing.

When Aer Lingus fails, CaptKremin, thanks to you and those like you, and it certainly will unless IMPACT are dragged into the 21st century very quickly, you will surely not be surprised to find familiar faces wandering through all the green rubble as Openskies commences in March of next year.

What a lengthy !!!! that was!
The splashback must've been of tsunami proportions when it snapped off.

Who's interested in this verbal excretia? The bowel movement of a rubber faced fart in the wind.
Not I.

This is a 'Professional Pilots' website (yes really! See, it says it in the title).

You are neither.

Take yourself off.

And a little willy dribble to finish off.

Pass the bog roll.

Semp
 

Dear Kapt Kremin, the fact that Lingus may not linger much longer seems not to bother you one wee bit. The Camel feller is offering sage advise, people are watching! You are being childish in your replies to him, people are watching.

Kremin et al, best of luck in a years time when you'll be going through the screening for Kingfisher or Air Deccan etc. You can sit in the crew hotel in Mumbai or Bangalore and reminisce about the good ol days when Aer Lingus was still flying....

The airline is under threat and all you can do is put the blinkers on and worry about your own little corner. Again, no word for the customers, your co-workers etc etc I was talking to one of these co-workers at DUB last night and they are very perturbed and in a word seething with the behaviour of the pilot body in all this.

Just watch out for those Indians, you think Big Bad Dermo is bad, you ain't seen nothing yet baby!!

Acha.








......

Forgive me if it's already been made clear - is the recruitment ban still in place? What hope for those who've honoured it? What for those who didn't?

Also, regarding BALPA and easyJet, there are some who think the company have suckered the pilots while BALPA has effectively stood by.

When he wrote that post, OW22 claimed the ALT pilots were at odds with the rest of the staff, and his buddies in other areas were disgusted with the pilots (or some such tripe).

Today Mr.Mannion has declared war on ALL the staff in Aer Lingus.
He asserts that some of OW22's friends - the 'other staff' - are skiveing off the job, working less than the full shift, claiming overtime they didn't work, and making up to 110K per year while doing it.

Is that not a case of sheer hypocrisy on behalf of OW22's buddy (Mr.Disgusted) then? That while he's been sniping at the pilots, he's swinging the lead in his back office?

Maybe Mr'Disgusted should've gotten his own house in order before opining on the pilots?

Anyhow, reality bites, and Mr.Disgusted - like all the other ALT workers - is now getting a big chunk ripped out of his own ass by Mannion.

Hate to say it, but - TOLD YA SO!

War is imminent. See you on the Roundabout Mr.Disgusted!

As a retired Pilot I see EI management taking on the unions who have led the EI staff up a cul de sac.
I think it's time for all EI staff to consider the future no matter how you might personally feel towards Mannion and Co.
I remember the time when it took 3 people to change a bulb in the flight deck - one the technician with the philips screwdriver, one electrician who changed the bulb(s) and one from the stores who carried the bulb! Crazy but true.
Times have moved on from this scenario of a bygone era but more cost cutting has to be done to ensure the future viability of EI in what is a cut throat business.
Please everyone, consider carefully what you propose doing and its possible consequences.
Regardless what happens the Union officials will continue to have their reasonably well paid jobs while EI staff are either on strike, or worse, might become 'former' staff of a now defunct airline!

I totally agree with you.
There are too many hangers on in the back offices. Too many baggage handlers earning 6 figure salaries. Too many Managers who have built their petty departments into enormous white elephants by adding extra ass lickers and pencil pushers at every opportunity. Too many 9-5'ers in a round-the-clock airline. Too much waste on useless crap, like Staff Development centres (mainly serving the 9-5 ers). Too much inefficiency from useless fools who can't even order up a ground power unit, or meet an incoming aircraft on time. Too many subsidised staff canteens for the 9-5'ers to slack off in. Too many lunch breaks. Too many tea breaks. Too many Fag breaks. Too many knock-offs at 4PM on a Friday. Too many subsidised staff parties. Too much heirarchy. Too little accountability. Too many bloody "Grades". Its like the bloody Civil Service. Oh, and don't forget the 'Incentive Plans' for management - up to 187% in bonuses on a 1Million euro salary for Mannion (he calls it a Pay Freeze). Rather TOO MUCH I feel, and a bad example to others as regards cost savings and salary cutbacks.

But the cockpits have 2 pilots - not 6.
And the pilots do their job efficiently - or you'd be reading about the dead bodies.

I hope IALPA stand back now, and let OW22's buddies, Mr.Disgusted and his overpaid underworked cohorts do the jumping-up-and-down on Mannions head.

And I hope OW22's pal Mr.Disgusted (et al) thinks of the poor passengers while doing so. I'm sure OW22 will remind him of his responsibilities.

Nice Post Heidelburg...........agree totally........

Oh my GOD! You DO work here in Aer Lingus!!

There's your cost savings in one paragraph. I'm glad someone else sees this waste for what it really is. Well Done Cpt Kremin.

This is excellent!

I am very impressed with Mr. Mannion.

He is taking on the unions in order to make the airline a profitable one. I had my doubts about him originally, but he's showing he has a backbone.

Well done Dermot, keep it up!!

one world you are a gypo

Ask him about his mate - Mr.Disgusted StaffMember.
Go on, ask him!
Still feeling aloof and well insulated?

Dermo's on a suicide mission now. Must've finally realised he can't shaft the Paddies as easy as he shafted the little brown fella's in Emirates.

Innit embarrassing when the CEO reeks of desperation?

All or nothin' then Dermo.
We'll see you out the door with a swift kick up the arse.