MOL taking over???
 

Ryanair raises its stake in Aer Lingus to 28%

Ryanair is believed to have spent €37.6 million yesterday increasing its stake in Aer Lingus to 28 per cent.

See www.irishtimes.ie

WAUW WHAT IS HAPPENING???

(if we strike, MOL will take even more!!) Surely thats the last thing we want. So let us stop here. Let us, as pilots, be the grown ups and protect what we so despirately wish to protect.


Why dont the AL pilots take the strike of the table and sit down with the management. I truly think that the thread of striking is as effective as actually striking. Its not in anyones interest to let the strike go through.

Let us now sit down after giving the AL management a clear message that talks are needed AND if we sit down AL management needs to be willing to listen and act on it.

LET's GO FOR IT, DONT LET MOL TAKE OVER THE BEST AIRLINE IN THE SKY!!!

I've been telling people this strike action is playing exactly into MOL's hands..

He is loving this. If a situation came where the intransigence eventually caused Mannion to walk as his position would be untenable. What reputable, talented businessman would ever come in and take over? Who would want such a poisoned chalice where you cannot make commercial decisions without your workers saying no and walking out?

The stock price will tumble and nobody will want to invest. The airline will then be offered at a cut price and who would be the one to step forward??

He'll happily take a loss as FR have such a war chest and he will take over the airline.

Dont get me wrong. I am completly behind the pilots. I am waiting to start with AL my self. But I do think that when we actually go through with the strike we will do more damage than good. I think we need to call it "off" for now and sit down.

The whole Nation is listening and looking at us and what we do now. We can make or brake the airline by striking or not striking. So why dont we stand down....for now. We have got the message across to all people involved. We have everbodies attention. Now is the time to make a difference. If after the talks AL wishes to continue with their plans than I think we should go ahead and pull the plug.

I think by fighting like children is in MOL's attention because nobody looks at him while we are fighting like children like..." you give up first...no, you give up first etc etc.

I think we have a message to bring across with calling a strike, now is the time to sit down.

Please let us stop calling eachother names. We need to come with a sollution without diagnosing the causes and symptoms for days on this thread!!!

We are the sollution in this. People will respect us for it!! Investers wont run away to please MOL because they are scared of loosing their money in shares.

C'MON GUYS!!:D

One small, yet vexing, point for mol, is that he is legally prohibited from taking over.

To reiterate, the pilots are happy to open bases in BFS, BHX, WAW or Timbuktu, wherever. Is it too simple to ask that management abide by the agreements they freely entered into? Is it too much to ask them to talk to the IALPA?
If we wanted to work for o'leary air, we could walk across the car park to the white house and get on with being shafted right now, rather than wait for it at EI, as come it surely will if cheaper bases happen. History says it will. Only the stupid don't learn from history.

I suggest you peruse the relevant financial literature before commenting.

There are no talks. Management won't talk. The pilots will talk at any time or place of their choosing.
The management want a strike. The agenda is much bigger than BFS. The agenda is to break IALPA.
If IALPA is broken, you may as well not bother looking for a job in EI, just go straightaway to ryanair. Which will be lost too, as IALPA (and BALPA) are the only ones trying to help the ryanair pilots (which is more than most ryanair pilots are doing for themselves :*).
This profession has been in freefall for years, and that's with union protection. Where the hell d'you think it will be in another 10 years if management get their way 100%?

With all due respect, you're on the outside looking in. If you actually believe that we haven't done everything that you've suggested for weeks/months/years with management and instead we've simply decided to down tools at the first hurdle - that's very naive.

It is a matter of FACT that this management and our beloved Willie Walsh predecessor ONLY start listening when the planes stop flying. Something IALPA and it's pilots wish could be changed.

PS. EI Management don't appreciate seeing their cadets/applicants posting on these types of forums. Considering your position (in holding pool and nice simple to identify username) I'd just sit back for a few weeks.....

Well said jpb...agree totally. Am sick of fighting to get started with any decent airline and when I hear about this strike all I think is am I right to even have gone through what I did to get this far. I keep hearing the comments from ground staff and others like "here go the pilots throwing their toys out of their prams again" and "greedy" being mentioned again and again. Going on strike is doing nothing to improve the image of pilots being overpaid and doing nothing for huge salaries. What makes it worse is that all of a sudden Michael O'Leary is being touted as a hero for fighting the EI SNN decision and for calling his pilots peacocks and telling them to f$&k off every two years to put them back in their boxes.

This strike is counter productive if you ask me.

J.P.Balkenende you seem to be one of the many people who missed the actual reasons for this strike. It was caused by the unwillingness of management to adhere to previous agreements and to enter into talks. (I gave specific information on my sources for this in an earlier post - mainly the Irish Times). Aer Lingus said that they would only enter into talks if they could continue with aspects of their original Belfast proposal, so they rejected the offer of talks from IALPA.

oneworld22, am I to presume that your post immediately above is a considered position - or perhaps it is intended as a joke? You sound like someone who has read Chapater 1 of "The Stockmarket for Infants" and now knows how the world "really works"!! (If your analysis is serious I am not sure that there is much sense in trying to sort out the causes of this with you).

What each of us thinks abouit this dispute comes down to one simple issue - who do we think is being unreasonable and inflexible. On the basis of the evidence outlined in the papers it seems clear that management are completely determined to do what they want to do. It seems equally clear that IALPA reacted to this. (As did the people in the West of Ireland to the Shannon decision). What I would like to see or hear about is any evidence that clarifies who is causing the problem. So far the answer seems self-evident to me.

BBT Thank you for your reply. I do understand the reason why the strike is on the table. I also believe that by striking we do more damage than good. One would think that by striking you are trying to bring a message across. And I think we managed to do that. Look at all the media attention. So to me now is the time to reap!!

Other point of attention is that by fighting in a close circle you loose attentuion for what is happening around you i.e. MOL and his ambition to tackle the airline.

Now is the time to protect what we think needs to be protected. Dont let it slip away because of our ambition to make a statemant.

THNX

JP what do you propose? The pilots go and talk and talk and talk again. Have more meetings perhaps. Or maybe agree on things that are subsequently rescinded by management. The current discussions have been ongoing for years. Management has put out its stall by the tack they have taken in regards to Belfast. This is a major change in stance for them. Never before have they been so aggressive. At some point you have to draw a line in the sand and unfortunately for management the only thing that will bring them to the bargaining table is the threat of a strike. This is the only thing that will hit them in their wallets.

Or perhaps you will be happy to buy your own type rating and fly out of Belfast. Maybe you would be happy to be moved to another base after a year or be told that your terms and conditions are subject to change without notice? Maybe you would like to work for an airline full of transients. You know the sort of airline where people come in for a few years, build their hours, take whatever deal management are willing to offer them and then move onto something "better". Maybe you don't care about the prospects of being in command when management will get someone in who is willing to fly for half the price. They might be able to even get a waiver so they don't need a JAA licence.

Problem is where is this better airline that you will hope to move onto in a few years? You tell me.

J.P.Balkenende you say "now is the time to reap" - but if nobody will talk, how do you "reap"? In any case, there is no need to reap, there is only a need to talk and reach an agreed position between the parties. That's how I see it.

I was just interested in seeing if anybody had some information that I missed about who is being the problem here - it is often the case that there is more going on that we are told in the media ............... but ... nothing forthcoming so far.

Splitplot – good news, there is a solution for your problem!

If you want to be poorly paid pilot and to only work for 18 hours a week you can pay Ryanair (the High Pay airline) for a B737-800 rating and join them to be bonded in for several years of cheap labour. Given your outlook they will welcome you with open arms, so your job prospects are nothing like as poor as you think.

As a bonus you could probably arrange to have your licence or a tee-shirt endorsed “Not a strutting peacock” and “Proud to employed by MOL”.

There won't be anything else forthcoming, because there is nothing else beyond the very simplicity of it all: the unilateral breaking of written agreements.

The end game is to avoid going down the ryanair route as this will surely happen if things proceed as management wish. Potkettleblack very succinctly assesses the situation in that regard. The reality is that the profession is at precipice. The "good" airlines are disappearing fast and if the rot is not stopped we'll all work for either ryanair or ryanair-lite. There'll be no escape, no "career" airlines, no "good airlines." Either get used to it or stand up.

See snaga, this is my problem. Because of the "peacocks", all that is left for me it seems is the MOR route and several years of cheap labour as you say. A lot of people who think they know it all on this and other forums became pilots in a time when if you became a cadet (with EI) for example, you were guaranteed a job with them on good wages and conditions. Now, I am sure you are going to have a story about how hard you worked and how much it cost, but I don't care about that because that does nothing to improve my position. There I go again, thinking about myself..Maybe I am cut out to be a "peacock".

I think what AL pilots are doing is great, I wish all pilots did the same. Stand up for the proffesion we all love. Dont let people like MOL and DM force us into something we dont want to!

But I also think by striking we do just that what MOL wants and that will leave us with nothing and by sitting down and talk to the management we win the most. But I think we need to take the thread of striking of and wait what AL does. They made it clear...take the strike of the table first and then we can talk.

So to me it looks clear...take it of the table..for now and get on with it! By striking we will be in the hands of MOL and then what?? DM will be sacket when we strike and MOL will increase his shares to 50% because every invester in running away as fast as they can.

Believe me I am fully aware of the situation and I am behind all the pilots that are willing to show some back bone and say no!:=

The difficulty here is that THEY REFUSE TO TALK.
The pilots have made numerous offers. They don't want to talk. They want a strike as part of the agenda to bury IALPA.

Not sure you are mate! Your support is appreciated though and I look forward to welcoming you aboard on the same industry standard T&C's already enjoyed by your future colleagues.

Solidarity in numbers

http://www.ifalpa.org/jobs/recruitme...0(Ireland).pdf

Oh please mate!

Not another one who thinks he has a good grasp of how the market works :p

Another possible scenario-EI pilots strike and are successful in guaranteeing the same T&C for their NI colleagues. Oh, now hold on, the cost of living in NI is less than in the Republic, our NI colleagues have more spending power than us on the same salary-strike! Again the customers are the losers:mad:

Does anyone know exactly what EI's long term plans from BFS are?

Here's the link to Mannions 'Prime Time' interview last night: Prime Time
Just listen to what he said at point 3:15 on the tape.

Mannion was asked on radio today if he'd suspend the hiring in Belfast in exchange for IALPA calling off the strike and holding talks.
His answer was that there'd been enough talking already!

To anyone who suggests the pilots should go back and talk - Mr.Mannion says NO to talks, end of story.
This is all or nothing now.

Regarding OW22 comparing Aer Lingus to Intel - what can one do but laugh. If only. If only.......

This is the aviation business, and there are no Intel's in this business.

Good Luck to all you guys and girls in ALT. It would be truly a sight to see if this became the catalyst for a mass revolt by the Irish pilot community.

It is an interesting statement Oneworld that you are presuming of me. Will you answer questions put to you and answer the points properly? Or will you carry on playing airplanes in your bedroom and continue logged on to prune 24/7. Do have a job or just like to make a nuisance of yourself wherever you go? I can direct you to the local off license if you feel like creating trouble which presumably you would do, as you talk out of your a***. :eek:

I find it quite amusing that you have the nouce to call me a liar when you obviously have no qualification as a professional pilot or have ever worked in such a profession. :ugh: It is great to see that you understand the intricies of industrial relations and that you understand the basic economics of labour. :rolleyes: I doubt if you even know who Adam Smith is?

You have NO QUALIFICATION whatsoever to doubt what any professional pilot says on this website because in fact you are NOT A PROFESSIONAL PILOT. If you don't mind doing us all a favour and go back to playing with your toy airplanes and your binoculars. There’s a good chap....
Pilots can quite easily recognise exactly what is going on with the BFS base. It is an attempt to break prior agreements and lower T+C's across the board. What is your problem with professional pilots being paid a reasonable amount of money for doing a professional job?

This is how the pattern works by continuing to lower T+C's and rates of pay from base to base. It happens in FR and is known to happen now with Easy with the Spanish contracts. It is a blatant attempt to lower wages across the profession as companies make more and more money. Even you must understand you have to pay for professional labour. It costs a certain amount and can not be avoided. Companies are trying to do this type of lowering labour costs further to earn more money on top of the profits they already make.

Pilots will and should protect their rights and contracts from predatory employers who seek to earn higher and higher profit margins at the expense of their staff. Please do not expect that pilots will take an attempt to lower their T+C's lightly as they will not. Inflation is rising and pilots are losing out year after year as every other profession or skilled labour earn more and more. A qualified electrician or plumber in the local London area can now earn more than a B747-400 skipper out of Heathrow. Can you tell me that the balance is right here? Is the amount of responsibility the same and can the plumber lose his job a minimum of three times a year but more realistically five or six time depending on age, rank and responsibilities? A plumber or electrician probably will not and hence why the balance is now wrong with terms of the profession and the relative wage.

Something needs to be done and the EI pilots have done it. They do not want to strike as they have a vested interest in the continued financial viability of their employer. But please do not expect pilots in companies like EI to rollover why the management try to take them down the path of lowering T+C's such as the practice in FR. You can be sure as has been demonstrated that they will not. They will stand up for their rights and T+C's and how dare somebody who isn't even in the same profession or industry try and make these pilots seem like the bad people in all of this. If you want to look at selfish money grabber’s maybe you should look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself some questions?

These pilots are only standing up for their current terms and conditions not extra money or holidays to Barbados. What are your motives in this? :hmm: :hmm:

Dear oh dear. Quite a pathetic rant there, throwing the toys out of the pram always a sign of somebody on a major defensive thrust...

Have a quick look at my profile. Feel free to look back at posts I've made here since 1999, you are obviously too lazy to actually do some research before shouting the odds on somebody you don't know..


Are you really as stupid as this question portrays you as?

The rest of your rant is baffling, I dare say you may have a had a few quick scoops on your way home....

Fighting for current terms and conditions??? Your current T's and C's are not under threat, this is about opening a new base of operations in another jurisdiction and T's and C's being appropriate to that local market.

Again, stop throwing up diversions on this topic. AL have made their commercial decision, and it is the pilots who have called the strike and them alone.

But please rant away, it's kind of funny:ok:

oneworld22 it is a well known PPRuNe fact that the only person on this planet who really knows how the market works is yourself. I was not making any attempt to de-throne you, so you can sleep easy tonight in the knowledge that you remain out there all on your own.

Reality Check Please!
 

I have read this particular thread with great interest; and no doubt that most support is for the AL pilots (this is, after all, a pilot site!). Whilst my own background is military aviation, my Uni education was in business and economics; and after reading this, the smart-asses will suggest I should have followed that career-path! But the simple economics, I think, are there for all to see and they are that AL is a company with shareholders and duty-bound to maximise the return on investment - long term- for all those same investors. Yes, AL pilots are shareholders but clearly blind to the long term survival of the company. Belfast is in another country, another economy and NOT tied to the Euro! Inflation is half what it is in RoI, where the cost of living is second highest only to Denmark and the AL pilots are fussing over what looks like pretty good T's & C's to me or Joe Public in another country. You get good money and very good T's & C's that were derived when the gravy train sat in the station; well it's down the track and a reality check is in order because you could be setting up the demise of AL. It needs all the help it can get in the current economic environment and to have some of its own shareholders threaten this action is both short-sighted and quite unbelieveable.

It's touching that you consider that DM isn't planning on following the well trodden path of MOL with regard to opening new cheaper bases and using these to batter through lower T&C's all around. What a nice man he must be.
How exactly do you see this panning out if it's not a attempt to eventually lower the T&C's all around?
Also, OW22, you are ignoring the central issue here: that management are unilaterally breaking the agreements they freely entered into. Do you find this acceptable?

Why, Yes I do.

Guys, OW22 is ranting on and on. Stop rising to the bait. There are arguments for and against in all debates. However his last statement says it all when he finds it acceptable for a company to renage on their collective agreements. Enough said. OW22 it's not a personal attack but when you come out with statements like that it's hard to take you serious.

Pre IPO Mannion agreed to adhere to all collective agreements in the ROI and the agreements made in the ROI among ROI based AL employees is not under threat.

IALPA is using the ridiculous example of the post IPO setting up of the Cork base as a guide to what should happen in Belfast!

Surely you see what's wrong with that?

Fair enough, we all have our moral baseline. Thankfully the western world operates under the rule of law.

Your reading and/or knowledge of the agreements is deficient. But we will never agree, as your understanding of what's right/correct/fair/decent is different to mine. So be it.

And we have courts because two parties often disagree with what they say an agreement stipulated. It happens and there are mitigating circumstances were the Judiciary or arbitrators can scrap existing agreements. that's what happens, it's why we have Labour Relations Commission and a Labour Court.

AL pilots are saying that agreements made by DM pre-IPO in the Republic Of Ireland are somehow now applicable to all bases even outside the country that Aer Lingus may wish to set up base in. AL management are saying no to that and are saying that was never in the agreement...

Fair and decent?? You think it's fair and decent to shut down operations like this? Causing untold disruption to the travelling public, the economy and your employer?

You are on a very dangerous road here and putting the Airline in on a dodgy footing. I said it before, if Mannion were forced out after this ends, when and of it ends, who do you honestly think would accept the Position to lead Aer Lingus? How could it possible have a future when it ends up that the unions call the shots? What do you think will happen eh value of the company?

Can you provide a source for this statement?

Would it be so bad if DM left AL? It is pretty easy to run a company when all you are focussed on is cutting costs. Any fool can do that for a while. Much more difficult to actually generate revenues and heaven forbid market the business and increase the brand.

BBT

The IALPA website gives a nice summary...

http://www.ialpa.net/pressrelease/pr...007-08-16.html

You’re the one with the toys. :E As I said before. You might need to go and play. :}

Will you answer a question put to you or will you just stay logged on 24/7?

A commercial decision doesn't mean it is right in terms of any employment agreement or in terms of employment practices. What if the decision is not even the right one for the company in the first place? EI is not a poor suffering company on its knees in any shape or form.

What is the problem with using the current T+C's in EI in BFS with the current pilot workforce from EI? Can you answer the question please……

Can you tell me the differance in the "market place" between BFS and DUB? I know, I know it is 2 hrs up the motorway. :rolleyes: We aren't comparing DUB to Bangladesh here..... What is the problem with pilots getting the same wage for the same job and same amount of work throughout Western Europe? The IAA is the jurisdiction and they will have the responsibility for regulating EI aeroplanes as that is where they are registered and who holds the AOC. It doesn't matter in that respect where the aeroplanes are based. Also the pilots in BFS could be going on Irish contracts. If pilots are not, why not? Other companies such as Easy and FR contract from the registered country most of the time but not in all cases. If they are not, it usually has something to do with splitting the pilot group so it can be more easily played for again lowering T+C's. Every lowering of the T+C's in any one base cause’s pressure on pilots from the higher rate base by management to lower T+C’s to the new lower rate. It will have an affect on the market place also. Even you can understand that.

All pilots terms and conditions are under threat from such a move that is why MOL is so keen to see EI win against its pilots so he can lower his own wage structure and T+C’s against his own pilots. The pilots in EI are having their current T+C's attacked by opening up another base on lower T+C's. CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT?

I do believe that somebody answered the general thrust of your statement before with terms of average incomes, house prices and expenditure etc with terms of "market place". This is an attack on the current T+C's in EI. The tactic is used by other companies such as FR and it works hence why the EI pilots will not tolerate this kind of abuse. It leads to different pilot groups in bases being played off against each other for the race to the bottom of the wage race. This has been again demonstrated quite well by FR. Do you not understand that or will you continue to close your ears or shut your eyes to the blindly obvious? I am sorry but I find myself repeating myself here as you choose not to understand what I am saying??????

Which diversions? Answer the questions please. There are no diversions, just questions.

EI has every right to make commercial decisions as long as they obey the relevant laws, regulations and agreements of the country of which is its principal base of operations and the relevant country which it seeks to operate from or to. Nobody has questioned that right Oneworld. Pilots understand that BFS might be commercially the right move but not by lowering the current pilots T+C's in relation to opening that base. It is an aggressive and uncalled for gesture by EI managers against its pilots where one was not needed to continue the success in building the company and expanding its route network to becoming more of a success than it already is or could be.

Oh for Pete's sake, whoever the hell Pete is!! IT'S NOT ONLY ABOUT SALARY!! [edit - expletive deleted, sorry] For crying out loud, cost of living is different in Cork and Shannon too. :ugh:

OW22, I know you've been around this site for a long time. So have I.
I've read many of your posts in the past, and often agreed with your comments. You even made me giggle at times.

The stuff you're coming out with now is very new, and quite an eye opener. So out of character!

Either I read you wrong, all along - or this particular issue is in some way unusually close to you - because the hysterics you are throwing are pretty unusual too.

I'm tempted to ask you exactly what that interest is - perhaps you bought a shed load of ALT shares and are worried about your investment?

Whatever it is, I guess we'll never really know, and it doesn't really matter.

You lost all credibility when you replied to Visual Calls question.

You are no more than a troll now, so I'm going to ignore your future posts - with gritted teeth.

All I'll say in parting is, I pray your own clientele treat you as you applaud them treating others. You are patently a man I would never ever want to do business of any kind with, because I detest fraudsters and liars.

If you really are an ex 747 skipper, you've fallen a long LONG way.

Fraudster and liar? Be very careful with the accusations.
Play the ball here and not the man.
You are painting all of this as totally one sided as a black and white issue when it is clearly no such thing. And you still have not discussed how this effects your customers and the long term position of Aer Lingus. Because as I've said you are in a dangerous place now. You've backed yourself into a corner and the general public are baffled by this and you have no public support.

Many of you are trying to stifle debate on this issue, I have already had a PM from one contributor here who was reported for some comments presumably by the pack on here and banned from the thread. It is clear he desire of many is to drive anyone whl dares raise a dissenting voice off this forum. Well I am still here, no warnings from the Mods, no bans so you guys will have to try harder.

You really think Mannion is now some Ogre because he wants to offer differing T's and C's for pilots in another country??
And please, would some pilot here at least try and mention your customers and what you'll do to them next week and how you think they will view AL from now on?

yet again, another letter in the IT today. A fuuny surname given the accusations earlier in the week!

Answer the questions please Oneworld! Stop evading please.....

AL management have made the logical decision to offer T's and C's appropriate to the local market. That's what businesses do.

Sigh...no, pilots in EI are NOT having their current T's and C's attacked. These new T's and C's are applicable to BFS, a new base outside the ROI. We can go round in circles if you wish, but that is the crux of the matter. You are simply making an over-emotional, ill funded guess with no basis of proof that somehow that BFS will mean ROI pilots will be threatened.

No it doesn't. you don't know that, again you're guessing, Salaries and T's and C's have increased in many markets around the world, even the Chinese are now prepared to pay US$12,000 for a B747-400 skipper and throw in accommodation and it's often tax free....

Pilots are a valuable commodity now, lessors can't get enough aircraft to satisfy demand. They are charging in cases 1.5% of the total value of the aircraft in monthly lease fees! If AL run their T's and C's down they will lose their pilots as they will go elsewhere....