Emirates Direct Entry Commands
 

Understand that Emirates will shortly be recruiting DE captains to crew six ex-SQ A340-300's the airline is supposedly acquiring in the very near future.

I had heard that Dec 2003 was a likely advertising month. Anyone got further information?

Here we go again......!
 

Rumours are rife of 6 "unplanned" A340's. To date nothing has been signed as the said aircraft have a few peculiarities which would mean a substantial investment to get them in line with the rest of the EK Airbus fleet.

If DE Capt's come, (and I'd rather work overtime every month than see that) previous experience will certainly be a major criteria, I wonder where they'll fit in to the grand scheme of things and on what salary scale they will join? 1st year Capt? :confused:

Time will tell..... :ok:

Warlock 2000 Your offer to do extra overtime is unlikely to be considered as a cure.

I guess they might get a few ex A340 Captains like myself to join who know Emirates routes. I would be interested in a short term contract if the price was right just whilst these aircraft if they do arrive are in Emirates fleet awaiting delivery of B777.

Huffing and Puffing from F/O's will not bother EK as they can be easily replaced.That is the joy from an Employers point of view where there are no employments rights for employees other than 3 months notice. No Unions etc etc = you have to watch your step or otherwise you are out on your ear. Just look at the Cathay 49 who are still probably mostly unemployed still.

I sometimes wonder whether applicants from the 1st World are fully aware of this fact. If you are unemployed then you have to take your chances and hopes it pans out. Those Captains who give up good jobs to join as F/O's are taking a big risk.

Funny how things connect isn’t it? I recently met the Boeing man in charge of Aircraft Trading Contacts at a p*ss-up here in Singapore. Amongst other things, he mentioned that the six A340-300’s in question were currently under management (for maintenance) with Lufthansa and that (subject to contract) Boeing would shortly be moving them to Emirates and that further, amongst other things, he thought they represented a good opening for the pilots recently “let go” by SIA.

Perhaps the imperative of these aircraft arriving at Emirates plus that of an overstretched training department and a huge back-log of already ordered aircraft, is leading to the obvious conclusion?

Please don’t worry FO’s. With the equipment you have arriving, even the most ardent hot-air balloonist would be assured of a command in the fullness of time!

'Twas bound to happen at some stage, opinions from a few misguided co-pilots notwithstanding.
One wonders about the suitability of these same huffing/puffing guys to really handle a command in the first place...considering some of their contentious comments in the past.
When you get down to the nitty gritty, if EK needs rapid command experience, the best way to get same is to hire directly for the position.
Other airlines that have done so include...
Singapore
Asiana
Korean
Garuda
SaudiaArabian
SriLankan....

Well, the list goes on and on, and the fact that DE guys appeared on the scene in no way impeeded the advancement of properly qualified First Officers to the left seat.

Except a few perhaps, who huffed and puffed their way....right out the door.:ooh::E

Millerscourt, thanks for the profound advice, but it would seem that your opinion may have something to do with your desire for a job.
If it's true and you did get a job, you're going to have to fly with those FOs by the way.

411A

I see.....yes well thanks for coming.

Not quite up to your usual levels of bollockspeak and clap trap but it's getting there.

The rumour mill does seem to be leaning towards DE Captains being the only way of crewing the 300's, if indeed they come. Pilots however are not the only problem. How do we crew the back when we are operating 500 cabin crew short at the moment. What effect on CCQ'ing would adding a 4th variant have (330-200, 340-300, 340-500 and 340-600). Also as Warlock said, they would need quite a bit of work to get into EK spec. They need F/O's as well. Were are we going to park them, when Dubai is struggling for gates as it is. etc etc.

There is a lot more to it than than just the question of who will sit in the left hand seat. Just to stick my bit in though, I think Direct Entry Captains would potentially be a problem. We have been hiring guys as F/O's for a while now who would easily qualify for a Direct Entry position. What do we do with them?

Touchy subject.

Albert of Arabia,

Good points, quite right. Must admit forgot about the kitchen staff (;)) shortage. Sorry boys and girls.

:} Amazing, dangle a carrot about ANY Emirates subject and everyone's friend Mr. 411A will certainly have something to say. Mention direct entry captains and he'll always have a lot to say!
"Young captains, not up to the job, not qualified, huffing/puffing guys, ...." SNORE! Change the record chap.

411A, for everyone's at Emirates', ahh, what the hell, make it worldwide benefit, what in your opinion is a "properly qualified First Officer " anyway?

This should be interesting from someone who once claimed to have a command at 29! Refreash my memory B737 or B707?
:confused: :eek: :rolleyes:


millerscourt,

Not too sure about that, ran the numbers and (simplisticly) if the boys are prepared to spread the joy, financialy it would be cheaper for the airline to pay existing captains overtime than to employ direct entry captains.
No disrespect intended, just trying to look after our own.:ok:

Warlock2000,

Properly qualified means....having passed a command assessment, found suitable...including past performance as a First Officer.
However, this ties up training Captains for a longer period (training First Officer upgrades) so might not fit into the picture.

Oh yes, it was 29, and the aircraft was indeed the Boeing 707.
A rather long time ago, but with a very small company so the upgrades were fast indeed.

You are correct about one thing tho...for a company to pay overtime is far more productive than additional new hire payroll burden.
Any financial guy who knows anything about airline ops will tell you so.
And certainly not restricted to the airline industry either.

See you were ill informed, so you're forgiven.
 

Pretty much sounds like what happens at EK except that EK guys have to pass a command interview and psyc evaluation too.

Hope this puts your mind at ease as to the quality of EK Captains.
:)

Little Knowledge is a dangerous thing....
 

There have been some comments here which have been well thought out and reasoned, and then, of course, there's 411A.

Trainers at EK are pretty much just that...Trainers. whether it be sim or line, that's pretty much all they do. (Of course they do some line work also). The list of suitable F/O's for an upgrade to the Left Seat is long, but the company requires at least 18 months for an accelerated command, and three years otherwise.

Most of those joining the company now have a :mad: load of experience and have joined Emirated from a failing, or failed, company. One of the few options open to them is to join a 'bucking-the-trend' expanding company. So please don't think that all right seaters are hopeless; just remember YOU used to one once 'captain'........

As for DE captains, the latest, hot-off-the-press RUMOUR is that they will be employed on a short, fixed term contract until the mess here is sorted out and the required number of crews has been reached. At the end of the contract, they will be offered a full time position within the company, BUT as an F/O qualified for an accelerated command.

This begs the question: what will their seniority be within the compnay, and what will be their contract? That I have not heard any news about....so watch the RUMOUR space.

Finally, when it comes to operating within a company, who do you trust to know more of the company SOPs?...a newly arrived experienced DE captain, or anyone who has been there for a few months or more?.................just a question.

PS anone else got 411A in their Ignore List?:ok:

I see 411 has listed all the most respected airlines as suppliers of suitably compliant entrants!!

Dear old 411A must have been a slow learner. I was in the left seat of a four-engined transport aircraft a good three years before he was and became a trainer before my next birthday.

:O Just a small point Fish, be it Emirates or many many other Airlines, pilots have gone thru a huge selection process and a huge training process to go from the right to left seat. Example (and I stess this is only an example), if a Captain from BA or QF came to Emirates, is he OK to fly your planes? He does it every day with his airline, so why not with yours???? No decent airline I know makes it an easy "jump" three feet left (as you put it), so if some one has done it before, why cant they do it direct with Emirates?;)

Have just seem my first ...

411A ...This person is on your ignore list.

I wondered if I would be tempted to look at 411A's posts now he is on my ignore list. Didn't and I feel good having, I am sure, missed absolutely nothing.

Would recomend it to anyone who would like to "lay one on him"

Hmmm, two pages of huffing/puffing from a few EK guys, and they still are without a clue.
Sadly (for them), if the company decides on direct entry Commanders, they just might be around a lot longer than many realise.
'Tis happened before with other companies.

Management will decide. Pilots at EK now will not likely have anything to say about it...in fact, if they act like prats, might harden managements resolve.

Re: the six A340-300’s in question. Boeing is offering extremely sweet deals to get shot of the ex-SQ machines they have recently been landed with, in part-ex for B777’s supplied to SQ as part of “the deal of the century”. So even though they may not currently match the EK A330 spec, there are powerful incentives for even more Boeing money to be spent and the aircraft being brought up to the required mod state for EK acceptance. The alternative being that they remain grounded and "eating up money" in vast quantities on a daily basis.

Behind the scenes, the Seattle manufacturer is desperate to unload and seething that they continue making SQ bound B777’s “for the fun of it”.

Therefore, whilst nothing in life is certain, the smart money is on the machines appearing on the Dubai flight line in fairly short order, rapidly followed by extra crews to fly them.

Totally off the subject....
 

Thinnist book in the world:
"HOW TO MAKE FRIENDS AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE"
By 411A

:rolleyes: Man, will you EVER learn!?

Relax, Don't do it...
 

Howdy folks:

From one of those at Ek to the rest at EK, take it easy.

Before we hire any direct-entry captains, the company will make it's way down the entire seniority list and pluck anyone qualified for the command positions which are required.

Any subsequent shortfall would indeed be made up by direct entry captains but they would only be for the 340, an airplane which is unlikely to be in our fleet past mid-2005. An airline equipped with 777-300ER's has no use for a slow, low useful load airplane with high-operating costs. Ask anyone in our accounting deparment.

ERGO - this too shall pass and will not delay your command in the slightest.

As an aside 411A is absolutely correct again: the company will do PRECISELY what it wants and union power is dead, dead, dead.

Any questions?

EK seniority
 

I was involved with EK at the beginning and being a start up airline we employed direct entry captains. A year or so after the start the non flying management still wanted to bring in direct entry captains which resulted in a couple of first officers jumping ship on a night stop, leaving the aircraft stranded.
The management then allowed the initiation of a seniority list - my personal view is that the seniority list has kept the standards and continuity that we expect from airlines such as EK (nobody in high places can bring a friend - everybody has to jump through the same loops). Caste an eye at some of the other airlines in that region!!
It will be a sad and significant day if that seniority list is broken.

Dropp the Pilot seems to be making some very good points. Of all the groups in the industry, world-wide, the FO force in Emirates would appear to currently be the most fortunately placed. Not only does it have a seniority system that, to date, shows itself to work, it has an employing company that has committed itself to vast fleet expansion, thus coincidently providing the group’s individuals with unmatched opportunity for progression to the LH seat.

As part of this expansion effort, the acquisition of very cheap, interim aircraft would appear to be an intelligent move on the airline’s part, as they will assist in market building prior to entry of what looks like being a world beating type, the B777-300ER.

Given this premise of even greater expansion than previously planned, because of a great deal suddenly thrown at the airline, it would seem counter-productive for the FO force to make short term difficulties for its employer in respect of a limited number of DE captains that may be required to assist in operating these opportunity assets.

Perhaps the group’s best interests may lie in gracious acquiescence of an unavoidable solution to an arisen situation which will ultimately benefit everyone.

As an end note, I also agree that 411A is entirely correct in the matter of the company doing precisely as it wishes. Best go with the flow on this one, if indeed the situation does come about, rather than needlessly antagonise. After all, we’re mature professionals aren’t we?

All will be revealed.................
 

Here comes the 29th with both fleets in separate meetings at the same time in the same place...................

RUMOUR CITY OR WHAT??

Seriously, have spoken to an un-named manager recently, 6 might be a smaller number than in reality.................didn't elaborate any further than that.

He also stated that the company's preference would be to promote from within as he would be a known candidate, rather than take an unknown from outside.

And please don't think for a minute that anyone on the EK pilot force (may-it-be-with-you!!) has the disillusioned idea that they are in any way capable of influencing the company........more chance of serving pork in-flight and if that's what 411A is trying to say then I have to agree.

But surely this is a RUMOUR network..........not a supposition network as 411A would think. Of course DE captains MAY be around longer than we think, no one is 'huffing and puffing' about it. We're just trying to find out if any one else has heard anything. And as some of the contributors to this thread are a little closer to this Sand Pit, rather than the one in Arizona, I know who I will be taking more notice of!

But the tone of his threads leads me to believe that his CRM skills are non-existant and I would hate to fly with someone like that. All Captains, regardless of how one percieves their ability started as a First Officer, even 411A. Maybe he has forgotten that in his senility..........

PS while he(she??) is on my ignore list, it still makes interesting, but mainly laughable reading when I know whats coming!!

TTFN

"SOPS, sorry maybe I should have been a little more specific.

Yes, of course those with major carriers have been carefully selected and trained etc. but are we necessarily going to get those that have long standing careers with a flag carrier applying for short term contracts here?
"

Yes Fish, you would starting with me !
EK is a fine outfit and I sure would like to get a peek. Im sure we are a lot lot feeling that way.

Emirates
 

Dear gentlemens,
i hope evrey body get his job and have one personell question to the experienced pilots.

Do emirates ever screen new pilots on the 777 - Sim instead of the Airbus 310 ?

Thanks for cooperation.

Who'd want to work for Emirates? :confused:
The pay is crap, and no pension rights!:bored:

Maxalt I guess it depends if you are lucky enought to have/be offered a job that pays more!!

>The pay is crap, and no pension rights!

True, but for some folks it is a step up.

$120K for 90 hours a month hard time as a widebody captain would be peanuts even at a bankrupt U.S. carrier but it is great money in Canada, the UK or Oz.

And it's $120K more than you're making if you're out of work. Just think of all you'll save on union dues <g>.

Well this: DE's are always a double-edge sword, and pilots be fools to think that management doesn't know this. DEs may tear companies apart if not done right. If experienced captains who have done it elsewhere can also do it in the ME and allow rapid expansion-although they'll probably enjoy the help of the experienced FOs with SOPs, local radio lingo, etc- but also, the experienced FOs, most of whom have jet command time, could also do the same job if allowed. So then these two points:

EK gives the impression of a very well organised airline which unlike many other in that region puts the right people to do the right job. I think EK probably has the most qualified FO force right now and as such company would be wise to revisit the 18 months requirement before hiring direct, and upgrade from within as much as possible from training point.

And the pilots, hopefully stay flexible and if not reasonably possible to upgrade from within, welcome DE's as long as on contract and in seniority which will be retained if these captains decide to stay later. To put it bluntly, the company is ultimately in charge and in this regard can do as it please, so why not work with them to keep every one happy. Lest we forget that recent years are littered with failed airlines unable to adapt, from which many of you come. Keep in mind that you and management work for the same company.

In closing, it has to be borne in mind that none of us were born as captains, however, some have forgotten the past. It is time for us to stay closer together and look after one another as we share the same passion for flying. The FOs should remain confident and not cocky, eager but not pushy, grateful and not confrontational, otherwise some day they might be surprised at the requried level of competence even in today's highly automated birds. At the same time, seasoned captains should remember the old days and how they craved for command, regard all FOs as captains in training and pass the torch on-it will happen anyway, willingly is just more becoming.

From memory EK has employed DEC's before - initially on short term contracts, but then extended through until they retired there.

"Interesting" to see 411Alzheimers sticking his unknowledgeable beak into this one wrt what he thinks requirements for F/O's to upgrade should be.
Using his own criteria, 411 Alzheimers would NEVER have made the grade HIMSELF! :uhoh:

OK, I guess I can understand people with no jobs taking a post at Emirates, but that not what they're reputedly hiring, is it?

From my understanding, they've got so many applicants they only hire high time, current jet rated Captains...as F/O's!!

The guys I know who've gone down there all had better paid jobs with good prospects!

I don't know much about the US Airbubba, but in the UK there are plenty of jobs going for experienced guys. Easy and FR are both crying out for Captains, and will be for some time to come, and the money's as good as Emirates, if not better.

So what is it?
Is it just the ego trip of a widebody command that pulls people down to the sandpit?

Doesn't the novelty wear off after you've done it for six months and then begin to realise you'll never get a payrise, and your retirement is your own lookout? Oh, and the added spice of being at the mercy of a system where 'union' is more than just a dirty word.:confused:

Hilarious!
 

Thanks, Max, that post made my day as the most inept pot-stirring attempt in history!

Tell you what, next time I strap on my EK 777-300 I'll urge the F/O to apply to Ryanair to ensure a better life for himself and his family.

If I am not removed from the flight for being patently insane I promise to send any printable responses your way.

If by chance I do find someone who really misses poverty, exhaustion, and six landings a day in some of the most obscure and sunless spots on the planet you will get a new union member!

Mr dropp whatever your name is dont make it look so good i hav beeing there done it the desert is a desert trust me few years down the line it wears off,nevemind unions and the rest
maxalt is right emirates is not everything and by the way if you dont belong to a certain group forget it and spare me the reply dont say is not true
good luck

pisssst.......hey "droop"....you are the FO.........duh!

Hey Dropp, don't get so defensive. I really wasn't trying to wind anyone up. I truly don't understand this sheeplike stampede to leave civilised europe, where there are good protections for workers and decent levels of security for families, to join a company in a ME country where you are nothing but a guest worker with no rights and dubious security.

Not to get personal...but your answer tends to make me think it really is an ego thing:

:uhoh:

Poverty?: An FR F/O can earn as much as an EK Captain.
Exhaustion?: I guess loooong haul can get tiring too, huh?
Sunless destinations?: I think 50deg temps in summer is taking sun worship too far! ;)

Dropp the Pilot, I think you'll find the vast majority of Ryanair pilots are VERY happy with what they're doing.

I wonder why....excellent pay, rigid roster, home every night, excellent promotion prospects, excellent profits, brand-new 737-800s, expanding route network.....and the choice of a number of bases all over Europe.....looks pretty attractive to me.

Yes, lots of landings, but then some people prefer it to hours on end of little or no activity....

I dont see a problem with the DE Captain proposal.Hundreds of pilots around the world are hired in this fashion.What amazes me though is how an experienced Jet Captain would go there and work as a FO.You never go left to right.Always right to left,unless it aint your choice or there's a sluggish economy.Besides its Saudi with alcohol and the pay is moderate.
411 is usually correct...its just the way he says it.

Those who are comfortably settled in Europe, with their fancy new equipment, home every night etc...will never hope to understand the reason others will choose a different path.

Some may just like the challange, others just want a change of scenery...altho do think it a bit daft to move from the left seat to the right, for what may seem like a short while, but indeed may be longer than they think. Still, will suit a few.

As for pay, well don't forget that in the desert 'tis provided tax free, unlike further north in the comfort zone.
Free housing is not to be dismissed lightly either.

From a personal standpoint, went overseas over thirty years ago for all the usual reasons...excellent tax-free pay (then especially),
interesting location (especially SE asia later on)...and the absolute most important, very rapid move to the left seat of a heavy four-engine jet. In a small company especially, this can be accomplished in short order...indeed it will take much longer the larger the company becomes.

Ah yes, the wailing and moaning will continue from the junior types in EK, but if the company management decides thus, it will happen, and there is absolutely nothing they can do about it.
Hey, if these junior types want to make 'decisions', they should apply for a management position, where they might hope to accomplish what they cannot here (or indeed in the right seat where they are now)...change policy...or make decisions.:E

Would suggest...gear up and shut up for the folks in the minority seat. :ooh: Just the way it is, like it or not, and many won't.

411A, I'm not criticising those who opt for a change in scenery in any way...indeed we all have our own preferences with regards to the sort of lifestyle we would like.

I was merely pointing out to Dropp the Pilot that things at Ryanair are far from what he deems them to be. The pilot community at Ryanair are more or less content with their deal. Each one to his own.

Indeed, AJ, a very good point.
Only have to look back a very short time to notice that many had slings and arrows for anyone joining RyanAir...now that the shoe is on the other foot, and FR seem to going great for those that are there...suspect a case of sour grapes by those that turned up their nose in the first place.