Tell me guys,

Are any of these personal attacks furthering the topic at hand?

Cop U Later

The Rev

High Cirrus Looking through your posts I see you accurately forcast the salary being offered by EK!! You seem to know more about what is going on in EK than those in the company!!

Rev Dr D Yes it would be 'ironic! but it is all about !Economics! and Timescales. Any experienced A340/330/320 Captain worth his salt even without Long Haul Experience can be on Line earning his keep in a very short time thus avoiding what must be a nightmare training problem brewing for EK.

As far as Long Haul experience. A lot of nonsense is talked about this. It is not as if EK as yet go across the Pacific/North Atlantic/Wastes of Siberia. Provided EK produce good en route briefing sheets I can see this not being a problem.

Now that A320 Captains can now apply then the Ball Game changes entirely.Applications will flow in from all around the World.

What price Qatar Airways now getting their Pilots?? Who would want to join QR instead of EK???

Rev Dr Doug,

From my perspective (and suspect from EK's perspective as well) the so called Captain qualified first officers joined as....well, first officers, regardless of their past qualifications.
Very foolish that...as it turns out now, don't you think?

Received very good advice early in my career...join at the position that you expect to achieve, and accept nothing else.

If one joins a company moving sideways...expect to be sidelined, if comittments are not kept, and many times they are not.

It would seem that the package offered by EK is not as good as many had hoped for. There is a contract out there - I have a copy in my hand - where the airline in question is asking for the same rating but pays USD9000/month + housing and transportation. I suspect the two airlines will be competing for the same pilots, even though the contract position is time limited and the EK job would appear to be long term. However,with only a few miles between the two home bases it will be an interesting fight!

411A

I know what you are getting at, and given the world of expat pilots, it is not an unreasonable position. I can say though, as someone in the company, not one pilot has been bought out here just to be an F/O, at least that was the position of the recuruiting department when we all came for interviews.

The recruitment line was always that "we only recruit experienced pilots to be EK F/O's, because we need them to be able to move to the LHS asap"

Now to be fair, I was never under the illusion that they would honor any agreement, should they feel the need to change to suit the bigger picture. However, EK on one side is trying to turn itself into a professional outfit, with "industry leading" CRM programs, hi-tech aircraft and training centres and all the other bells and whistles that most airlines aspire to. Whilst on the other hand it is p*ssing off its staff deluxe.

I have a feeling that these two management aspects are incompatible over the longer term. But as we all know, the market will be the decider.

It is interesting to note though, that none of this is new. It all happened exactly 3 years ago. Then,as now, it was all aired on Pprune.

It would appear that few of the F/O's who have joined since then actually heeded the warnings that were provided in much detail. So it can be said that they either walked knowingly into the position they now find themselves, or they did not carry out due dilligence on the position they applied for.

I can say without hesitation that I have tried to provide a fair and balanced view of EK over the last couple of years. Only to be accused of being a whinger etc, etc. Well, I am not whinging now, but I bet a few of my acusers are.

Cop U Later

The Rev

From the EK web site:

EMPLOYMENT PACKAGES

CAPTAIN SALARY:
Monthly Salary
Starting Salary is Dhs 23,920 and is reviewed annually with eligibility for step increases within scale. (1 US$ = 3.66 UAE Dirhams). The salary is Tax Free.

Productivity Pay
For each credit hour above approximately 84 hours, an additional Dhs 400.

Does “eligibility for step increases within scale” mean that EK management has the flexibility to take in DE Captains higher up the increment scale so as to snatch worthy aspirants from the likes of CAL etc?

What does the sentence under Productivity Pay exactly mean?

Heres a link you might be interested in with regards to changes in Dubai labour law
http://66.234.3.46/Displayarticle.as...ptember323.xml

Reverend Doctor Doug

Absolutely correct, which is why I’ve drawn attention to the excess and needless venom displayed by Pontious towards millerscourt. Perhaps he’ll now moderate his rant style and even stick to the thread’s theme.

Of which, I’m pleased to note that I’ve not felt it similarly necessary to draw attention to the insulting and knee jerk reactions to any post by 411A. It’s interesting to see that as the thread has developed, antipathy has progressively dissipated as realization of his knowledge, foresight and contribution has overcome a prejudice built up over time, only by his style, rather than content of his posts.

Yes, let’s further the topic(s) in hand rather than descend to needless and vicarious personal attacks.

At the beginning of this thread, mention was made as follows:

“……aircraft (the A340-300's) have a few peculiarities which would mean a substantial investment to get them in line with the rest of the EK Airbus fleet.”

There doesn’t seem to have been much subsequent mention of this aspect of the deal, so presumably it has not proved to be an insurmountable problem?

They are adveritsing on their website for DE captains.

180 posts and fading fast, how about tis then.

My current application for ek f/o job seems to have stalled. Under the new coditions though i can apply as a skipper, i meet all the requirements. How does that work then.

Your Bird major

Rather good luck on your part FFlaps, but will certainly not make the present First Officers happy.
But then again, you apparently have the experience,and in the end, that is what counts.
Good luck.

The web site is misleading. The actual requirement for Direct Entry is 3000 hours wide body command with preference to A330 and A340 type.

Typhoonpilot

typhoonpilot is correct on this one

MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS

Requirements for Position of Direct Entry Captain

A minimum of 10,000 hours total flying time
A minimum of 3,000 hours in command of multi-crew, multi-engine jet aircraft in excess of 55,000 KGS MTOW
Preference for short listing will be given to A340/A330 rated pilots and those with wide body experience. A background in training would also be advantageous.
ICAO ATPL
Applicants must be less than 56 years on joining
Experience commensurate with age

..............................................

That means 3000 hours 737-400 is good enough for DEC with Emirates....on top of ie 7000 hours Cessna Caravan. Like it or not . Its their planes. Their rules. Good there are some experiences FO's to help them....

No matter what the intent of the requirements. It is the written word that counts.

The word going around here in SIN is that the EK DFO will be in town next week, to conduct interviews for DE captains. SQ hierarchy believe that 30+ captains will be taken on by EK this year and 50+ beginning of next year.

Be interesting to see what the SQ attitude to all this will be.

Very interesting if highcirrus is correct because why is the DFO doing the interviews?
At the very least you would expect DECs to have to jump through the hoops for 3 days like everyone else:confused:
I can only assume (and hope) it would be initial interviews before the normal set up in DXB.
However, having been told by a CC trainer that they have been told to pass all trainees 'cos we are so short of staff, nothing would suprise me:mad: :mad: :mad:

I understand that this arrangement has been chosen as it’s easier for one guy (or a small team?) to come over to SIN rather than have a full blown invasion of 30+ DE aspirants descend on DXB in a very compressed time scale. Don’t have any info on whether a single interview plus acceptable track record will ensure entry to EK or whether the interviews are to screen likely candidates for the full works later on in DXB.

Seems plausible but if that is the case then 'oh how the mighty have fallen'.:yuk:
It would make all the work of the recruitment team look like wasted time and effort.:{
I don't have a problem flying with DECs (athough I don't like the fact that it's happening) but a free pass (by comparison) would be a real kick in the flaps:ooh:
Time will tell.

The last few posts would indicate that the topic will descend into "well i had to do all this selection so everyone else should as well".

A bit like "i had to do a lot of exams for my atpl so should the rest of the world or they can't be as good as me" syndrome.

Most new companies (ek, easy, etc) are started by people who first recruit their friends and known quantities. Once they have enough to start up they begin to build their empires. The first stage is to impose ridiculous hr recruitment processes (easy is the best example) effectively raising the draw bridge behind them.Some of the start up types (that i have met)wouldnt have the interpersonnal skills to get in the SS never mind the pass a group exercise.

In the case of emirates if they choose to recruit from all over the world then it may serve a valid purpose to weed out the licence holders with no knowledge, or such knowledge as obtained by selective shopping.

However the fact that they may by pass this proceedure to suit their own ends just goes to show that it was (or is) a pretentious load of sh1t.

If they do bypass it , then those who went through the selection have been taken for a ride in a sysytem set up in part to gloryfy the empire of the original expat founders (managers).
Tough.

Personnally where at all possible i try avoid any company with such proceedures as i have proved my academic, flying and social skills to the relevant authorities, companies and people.

I was however willing to submit to the emirates interview in order to live with a bunch of friends. Now it seems i may not have to. Oh Dear better keep my head down to avoid all the toys getting launched

You pays yer money you takes yer chances.

PS can anyone speculate if the early manangers at ek have a similar early background to the ones at easy. Just a conspiracy theory.:8

phew, where did that come from.

your bird major

With that kind of attitude you just made the argument for the selection process even stronger :mad: :mad: :mad:

When airlines recruit Commanders, they are recruiting a known commodity, ie: experienced Commanders, from other airlines where they have proven their worth as...line Captains.
A consistant track record, if you like.

This goes especially for check/training Captains.

With First Officers, they can be more selective, because many times they have no command experience...and if they did before, with another company, they have applied for a First Officer position.

Has always been thus, and it ain't likely to change anytime soon.

Having said all this, companies should, to the best of their ability, promote from within, whenever possible.
In a rapidly growing airline, this may be a real challange.

411 I can't agree with you here, when you recruit a commander from another airline you don't know anything about them! All you know is what's in their log book. Just because they might work at what is regarded as a reputable carrier doesn't meen they are necessarilly anygood. Surely your arguement would apply to F/Os. If you recruit an F/O from "other ailines where they have proven their worth" as you put it, then wouldn't you still know what you are getting as an F/O. If you don't know with an F/O why are you any wiser with a commander??

Given that EK want to put these DEC straight into their jets, without any knowledge of who they really are (ie, a history of recurrent checks, behaviour etc) then they should be more thorough and selective in recruitment not the other way around.

Actually max AB, airlines do a lot more than a quick logbook check when hiring flight crew.
Extensive background checks are the norm now, and indeed have been for sometime.
In addition, as EK has requested applications especially for training Captains, they may well do better hiring from outside, as comments here suggest the training department environment is less than ideal.

Either way, it would appear the these direct entry guys will be required in rather large numbers.
Maybe even pump up the salaries a bit for all at EK, which appear to be in need of inflation.
Have passed thru DXB for the last 25 years, and prices are definately not cheap anymore.

Another Post75 I have it on good authority that Experienced A340 Captains with experience of EK's Routes will start on a Salary much higher than the bottom rate of Dhs 23920 per month.

EK are realistic enough to realise that they will not get the Quality Captains otherwise.

EK are getting these A340 at a Bargain price no doubt from Boeing as they have been sitting around for ages gathering dust so EK can well afford to pay the Proper Rate to get the required Captains.

Farty Flaps – Yes absolutely spot on. I kicked off with a start-up airline at one time and then stayed with them for almost ten years before I tired of the corporatist bull!!!!! culture that had slowly evolved from the heady, buccaneering first two years. I vividly remember that the majority of my (captain) founder member colleagues, whilst very nice guys, hardly possessed startling management or leadership qualities and were strictly average but adequate line pilots (just like me!). What a remarkable number did possess in spades, however (I didn’t), was a desire to wear a suit, sit in an office and be the big man, using the training route as the industry standard stepping stone (I was offered the same but declined). Once ensconced, following, in a couple of cases, less than luminous training interludes, these pleasant and unremarkable men, prone to the normal human error and limitation, transmogrified into unbending and unforgiving paragons of knowledge, rectitude and Olympian certainty, to the puzzlement and consternation of their founder-member friends plus the newly joined members of a rapidly expanding airline. New devices progressively evolved for the selection and training of recruits and ever higher standards (which the founder members would never in a million years have themselves been able to attain) became the bar to clear before acceptance.

Whilst all this was going on, I was aware of similar founding days of Emirates and of a number of the personalities who now seem (from an outsider’s view) to have reached such similar Olympian heights as the personalities described above and, furthermore, seem to uncannily mirror their attitudes and methodology.

In the “old days” of both airlines, it appeared that experience, track record and personality were the three key elements, established during an interview with the DFO/CP, plus the results of a discrete couple of ‘phone calls around the industry, following which, if all was assessed as well, the candidate would be offered a position. Nowhere did I see any sign of HR “experts” or psychology gurus being required to tell the DFO/CP what they needed to know about particular pilot candidates and at all times I was aware that the system seemed to work most effectively (except when the “Old Pal’s Act” was invoked periodically and the odd duffer slipped through) in that able and experience people continually joined both airlines.

All of which, in fact, leads up to my asking the question: Is the EK three day selection process (and other airlines’ similar procedures) really required at all, or is it just a fashion accessory which the well dressed DFO can’t do without and in particular is it really needed for the DE captains to be recruited, who’s track records, personalities and experience must, by now, be transparent to even the most casual observer?

atiuta

With four posts since Nov 2001 you’re not exactly a prolific contributor are you? And in your last offering you don’t really say much either, do you? Why not develop what you would like to say and provide an intellectual case to refute all that you have read and presumably do not agree with – sighing soulfully and relying on rhetorical questions and innuendo simply will not be effective. Finally, Pprune is not compulsory reading - you have the choice and if you really do find different viewpoints anathema, then desist from logging on.

Having been through the EK selection process myself I'd have the following comments.

It was done in a very open and friendly atmosphere by the 'facilitators'. I found them to be honest and professional in their approach.

However....

Within the first 1 hour it was already obvious to me which of my fellow candidates was likely to be selected...and more importantly, which ones were utterly doomed to failure.

I took the whole process in the best of spirit...after all, by applying for an F/O job I was already having to swallow some pride...might as well go along with it so and give your best.

But afterward, even though I 'passed' and was offerred the job, I have to say that the stupidity and insulting nature of the process began to bear down on me, and it did play a part in my decision not to join up.

In short, as others have said, the selection process is a sham, and is (I believe) more aimed at discouraging applications from anyone who might 'have an attitude' and give EK some trouble if they are not getting everything their own way.

A traditional interview with any of the candidates in my group would have produced exactly the same outcome IMHO.

The fact that I got through the 3 day process shows anyone can fool the system! ;)

So you guys in EK who jumped through all the hoops and are now being passed over for your command by DECs, this is exactly what they had in mind for you when they put you through the process and selected you. And, more importantly, this is what you showed you'd be prepared to swallow when the time came...just for that job at EK.

You are going to be good obedient puppies.

Suck it up.

Jeez, MaxAlt - you come out of retirement more times than George Foreman! Your last word on the subject was supposed to be your post on the 19th, but I guess you just can't help yourself.

So happy you made selection way-back-when (as you have mentioned at every given opportunity), but if you're not interested in the job now (that's 3000hrs widebody command, by the way) please just leave it at that. Let those who might well be interested make up their own minds after seeing firsthand for themselves.

Nah. That was just the date on which the thread was moved off the Rumours page by Danny. I expected it do die a quiet death in the wilderness...guess I was wrong though. Glad to see it's got legs.

Look mate, I made one simple comment to begin with, way back on page 2.

All hell broke loose over my head for daring to simply suggest EK wasn't the be-all and end-all in aviation! That was before the news about DECs came in. Suddenly it seems I was proved more right than even I thought possible.

If you think I've overstated my case, now that the truth is hurting, I'm sorry....I have full sympathy with those who are now under threat. All I can say in my defense is you won't be seeing me applying to EK, whether they'd want me or not because whatever I am....I'm no scab.

My advise to you all in EK is - get a union.

To those who aren't in EK yet, you don't need my advise, just read and think twice. Then do as you must.

Scab? How is joining EK under the DE profile scabbing?

As a matter of fact, this job may appeal to me.

Would anyone like to comment on the prospects of getting children into schools?

What family accomodation is provided? Duplex, villa, unit or stand-alone house?

What is the rostered flying like?

Is it back to back long haul, night flying?

Is the rostered allocation of work equitable, or do the top hens peck the good flights, leaving chaff for the mere mortals?

This thread may be better served by allowing F/O's to vent their collective spleens. If so, I apologise for butting in, but it seems EK will employ as they see fit, in which case, there are pertinent questions that could be answered here.

Maxalt, you're upsetting people. Bravo to you for not taking the job. It's obviously been the right decision, for you. Is there now a need to rub that into the faces of those at EK?

maxalt

Correct. All the three day “hoop-jumping” does is confirm to the HR operatives that the pilot candidates can do what they’ve been doing as a matter of some routine for the past x years – something a switched-on DFO can establish in three minutes with the aid of his/her knowledge, experience, intuition and back-channel sources. Or don’t they make DFO’s like that anymore?

Life as a journey

With a name like that I would assume you are a bit of a philosopher. Well I think you should take the time to reflect on this.

Whilst I respect the right of anyone so qualified to apply for the positions advertised, afterall shafting your colleagues is a time honored tradition amongst pilots, you don't seriously expect anyone here to help you, do you?

Secondly, all the information you have asked about has been discussed in volumes on these forums, so loosen up that clicking finger and sort your own life out.

Cop U Later

The Rev

millerscourt. From MSN currency converter - 23,920 Utd. Arab Emir. Dirham = 6,512.74 US Dollar. So no, this doesn’t seem overly appealing as an inducement to move, for experienced captains in the 55 year aged bracket and who are currently serving in positions that EK would find appropriate as indicating suitability for a DE command with the airline. But then maybe bottom line will prevail again and they’ll take the sweepings who’ll jump at the chance. Doesn’t say much for the airline’s future if this is the way they go (which they will!).

Have a pleasant journey Reverend.
Try not to get cross when things aren't going your way.
It happens.

75 You sound as hung up on dollars as 411A is on hours. People move for lots of reasons, out of a job is a good one. Security at home, (SA) or maybe even the weather.

max AB

Sure, all good reasons but really the cash is very important and if we didn't make it so, we'd all be living on a pittance and getting nowhere - bit like the boys in SQ in fact!

Life is a drama

The current events have had no effect on me whatsoever, and I am not the least bit cross.

I do however carry concerns for those I work with. Which would appear to be a different position than yours.

Continue the journey. It seems that you have a long way to travel.

Cop U Later

The Rev

Scab?

Yes, 'Life as a Journey' (LAAJ?), thats the word I'd use.

If I took a job which parachuted me into a widebody LHS in a company which always promoted from within, unless there were exceptional circumstances (i.e. a short term wet lease) I would indeed feel like a scab.
Thats the only word I can think of to describe it. It may not be technically correct - they have no union - but since every guy you will meet or work with will treat you like a scab...a scab is what you will be.

I guess if you need a job badly then you'll live with yourself. You'll need to be good company though, because it'll be a lonely life.

The only pilots interested in such cheap unpleasant work will be the dregs, and those who don't give a damn for anyone but themselves.

There's plenty of 'em out there though.

Silky, your problem is you are so in awe of EK you just can't believe we all don't think like you. What would you be prepared to suck up for a job at EK? Wanna sit in the LHS of a shiny new A340?
You know what to do then.

You're right about one thing at least, but it was a few posts ago now. In it you said something about sniping at each other. 'How's this progressing the post?' Let it go Reverend. So you don't like my handle...

As for the fellow who thinks I'd be a scab, you're off the mark there. No picket line. Company employing, needs pilots, no-one being laid off, or, wait for it, disadvantaged. Threatening comments on a PPRuNe thread won't have the desired effect of scaring off properly qualified crew.

EK need drivers. They're about to get them.