411 I think you are right. The solution to crewing shortages may or may not be short term but those that go to EK under the DEC entry won't be short term. Why would any company let these guys go after a few years? Talk of a "contract" is just talk, there is no mention of that on the EK memo that was posted here. It is more likely that any one joining under the DEC would be employed long term like every on else.

halas

Could you explain why exactly you ¡°don't see them (the eight A340-300¡¯s) being a part of the Emirates vision in the next few years,¡± any less than the A330¡¯s currently operated are presumably part of the ¡°Emirates vision¡±?

It's great how you do that stuff with your keyboard.

Wish l could do it too:ok:

An old, second hand, slow, overweight, CFM powered aeroplane doesn't appear to me as being a future direction for this outfit.

In three years the 330 will supposedly be in the process of being removed from the fleet. Where does that leave the above?

The goal is the 777 being the baby of the fleet, as the 340 and 380 are being delivered.

That seems pretty straight forward to me that the 340-300 appears to be a stop gap, and the 330 is here to make up the numbers until the heavy metal arrives from both manufacturers.

Thats what all the propaganda from the company says anyway with regard to the future fleet.

Back to DEC....

The problem l feel is the training department.

It has been left under the control of #%* and has not kept up with the expectations of the company, particularly in meeting current, let alone future upgrade requirements.

l don't have to explain here whats going on, as every knows.

It really does need to be expanded to supply at the rate of demand.

It's going to cost money either way, DEC or not.

So the summary is that the manufacturers can't keep up with supply and the training isn't at the right volume, yet.

halas

halas

Yes, it’s come out pretty fancy hasn’t it – these Chinese keyboards really are inscrutable.

Your aircraft acquisition explanation makes very good sense as does your thumbnail sketch of the EK training setup. Thanks for taking the trouble on your keyboard!

News seems to be that EK requires 100 (one hundred) DE captains. Ad will appear in next week's Flight Int'l. Required hours: 10k total/5k command/1k on type.

UP-date: For next week's FI, now read next month's

If true, management is really sticking it to the First Officers already there. Either the general experience level of these guys is rather low...or the company has decided to bypass them altogether.

A 'few' really experienced DE Captains would generally not be a problem. A hundred would likely mean greatly reduced upgrade possibilities...and moral at rock bottom.

Either way, not good for the longer term for the junior folks that want to remain.

Management may be rather shortsighted.

Could it be that the road is paved for a favored group to join and bypass folks already there?

Basically Ek has no regard for its FOs, it would rather take on DECs who it doesn't know, has no track record on, has no idea about their psychological profile ( at Ek you have to do psycho tests at joining and every upgrade!!!!!!)and who don't know the company rules and regs and there are a lot of those.
There are a huge number of guys at EK who could easily be upgraded. They have had previous commands on 757/767/plus bigger types!!!!! but have taken the big chance and moved out to the desert ( rightly or wrongly). These guys are not low hours new guys, most have in excess of 7000hrs , years of experience flying in all parts of the world. But EK treats them like dirt once in the company. As I said EK does not take into account your EK track record, the fact they know you, they know your training and that you have some idea about the way EK runs,its rules and regs - that all counts for nothing.
Before you all start saying EK needs Capts to cover its expansion then why has the training dept not been covering this from way back when - its not their fault - it is management and him in charge of Flt Ops what ever his name is - KCT!!!
STITCHED UP LIKE A KIPPER:ouch:

halas

On return from my last trip, I’m told that EK is now intent on promoting 80 – that’s eighty – line captains, to training status. Presumably these will be internal upgrades from the established captain strength?

Looks like whoever was in charge of the training department, definitely had his eye off the ball (some would say head up his a*se) during most of the recent past. Also vindicates your view expressed in your post of 19 September.

An F/Os lament...
 

Being one of the F/Os directly effected by the DECs and having no other forum to voice my frustration, I thought I would put my dirhams worth in...

There are many high hour, high experience pilots in EK who left good jobs to join with the promise of early commands. Indeed the initial interviews were geared toward selecting high hour/experience guys because of the rapid expansion...so they knew it was coming. By high hours I mean 7 to 10,000 hours, widebody, command time (albeit on 'soft' aircraft types), but never the less, relevent experience to offer a command opportunity. Successive PPC and line checks together with valuable route experience also reinforce the suitability of those of us who feel that the policy of DECs has shafted us and will without doubt delay any prospect of a command.

In an effort to 'find' suitable candidates amoungst our own ranks a pre command interview board was set up. It turned out to be a superficial, and in some cases demeaning, exercise from people who should have known better and served only to pave the way for the current announcement.

It comes of no surprise that DECs have been imposed with no discussion, explanation or concessions to those who will be directly effected...although our full support and understanding will still be requested during this 'exciting period'. Standard airline policy issue: rumours followed by a memo published in the early hours of the weekend, advert in Flight to follow.

DECs and the implimentation has been a swift and hard blow to the stomach. It is a short term solution to a longer term problem. Could it have been done better? Certainly. The company must have known that they would need crews for all the new aircraft they have on order. Instead over the past few years they have lost experienced training captains instead of increasing their numbers and preparing the training system to cope.

'Amatures talk about tactics, professionals talk about logistics'.

So what can we do? Square root of FA really...the situation here in particular is like being in quicksand, the more you struggle the deeper you sink. Would I have joined if I had I have known all of this two years ago? NO.

As the great philosopher Homer once said, doh!

Food for thought

Could the problem be something like this. Last year DFO decides he will put all those prima donna training types in their place by cutting their training pay by up to 50%, no discussion entered into, take it or leave it. Consequently some senior training staff chose to leave, and very few line captains were interested in applying for training, due to poor compensation and complete lack of respect by management of the role a training captain performs.

Result. 330 fleet becomes short of training captains, Airbus training manager on phone soliciting applications from any line driver he can con. (The boeing fleet would have been short also, except the change coincided with a slow down in aircraft deliveries)

Due to shortage of training captains, the company is unable to crew arriving aircraft. DFO tries to cover his blunder by implementing policy of short courses only on 330 (boeing guys bypassed) this results in going way down the list to find guys who are eligible for accelerated command. Unfortunately, in desperation, some corners are cut, and some of the accelerated guys are not able to make the grade (not surprisingly, given the state of the training department).

Now we have a situation where we have run out of 3 year guys, too many upgrade failures from accelerated command guys (despite plenty of qualified 777 F/O's who are not allowed to have a crack at command on the 330) and commercial ordering 6 or 8 new aircraft that weren't previously in the plan.

So what was previously a shortage of training captains on the airbus fleet, is now a critical shortage. The only way out is to employ direct entry captains.

This is not to mention the 12 or so airbus F/O's who upgraded on the 777 (and bypassed some 777 F/O's) only to be told less than 12 months later that they had to go back to the 330 because it would save the company money. More likely it will save somebody's a*se.

I would like to add that none of this is privileged information, it just seems to me that this whole debacle can be largely traced back to the company's decision to cut the package for training captains.

So it could therefor be argued that either somebody has made a massive planning error, or it was a deliberate ploy to employ DE captains.

There are no surprises here for me, I have seen it all before. But let it serve as a warning to all those who are looking toward the desert. When the company says that they reserve the right to do whatever they want, they can and will do it if the need arises.

Cop U Later

The Rev

I think we can assume that the requirement for DEC will include also B777?? If so then it would attract ex BA 55 retirees provided they can be London based which should not be a problem for EK to organise. It will save them Housing Allowance and also not many will require School Allowances at that age.

However if EK are trying to pay 1st Year Captains salaries then the jobs will need to be permanent to attract younger people.

Will EK state quite clearly in the advertisement exactly what the Salaries are???????????


Maxalt I agree with what your last post mentioned.

The Rev I find your posts very sensible and without some of the hysteria found in some of your erstwhile colleagues.

I can sympathise with those F/O,s in EK especially those who were Captains beforehand but this kind of thing just emphasises that when you join ANY Airline as an expat then all the rules in the past that you were perhaps used to go out of the window.

Millerscourt

Don't assume. It makes an ASS of U and ME.

Reading ALL of your posts on this thread, are you sure you "Fit the Emirates Bill"?
On first appearances, judged by your postings anyway, I bet you're the kind of guy who,if successful, will be bragging to his friend (note singular) down the pub,
" Ah,yes I'm off to the Big Sand Pit to teach Johnny Foreigner how to fly aeroplanes,don't you know!"

IMHO you seem a little too wrapped up in yourself, have little or no concept of what life in Dubai is like, an inherent hostility t'wards change and a blatant card-carrying, whinging racist to boot. No offence,mate but I don't think you are the kind of pompous arsehole that EK would entertain. But please, feel free to keep us informed how your application is proceeding.

:ok:

Millerscourt

I dont expect there will be any 777 DE captains as we dont have any new aircraft being delivered for some time, so there will be an abundance of 3 year qualified F/O's when the 300ER's start arriving.

I would dearly like to see London based pilots as well, but IMHO there is as much liklihood of that as there is of spotting icebergs in the Dubai Creek. DE captains will cause enough angst around here as it is without adding insult to injury by basing them in UK.

The other more relevent point is, if you were offered a mid level EK captains salary, say 30000dhs per month with a UK base and had to pay UK tax, would you take the job.

Cop U Later

The Rev

I hear that the Captain start salary is 24,000 dhs per month, which equates to GBP 4000/USD 6500. Even though tax free, can this paltry amount really be enough to attract the experience and quality deemed necessary by the contributors to this august thread, to jump through the hoops, attempt the Herculean task of EK integration and finally man the flight decks of the EK interim aircraft?

Meanwhile, Reverend Doctor Doug, your management have shown that they really don’t give a t*ss about you all, so if they want London based Captains, or even FO’s, they’ll just go right on ahead and appoint them, despite any consideration of angst amongst you all.

Modern times huh?

With regard to basings HighC and Mr Miller, management have stated that they are against anything of the sort. Fatigue you know. The Rev talks true, it is management angst in this case.

Pontious My My This DEC business is really getting to you. How on earth did you manage to jump through all the hoops to get into EK.?? Still I guess there will always be a few like you.

Just try for a change for an intelligent posting if at all possible!! Try and get that huge chip off your shoulder.

Rev There are ways and means of not paying UK tax if based in UK provided you obey a few rules.

To all you guys at Emirates it is sad to hear that even your airline is beggining to change its behaviour towards its pilot body. It seems that after 9/11 the industry is in a complete mess, and that every manager's dream of fu..ing the pilots is coming true. I just hope that when the time comes and the market changes all of us have the tenacity and audacity to pay them back in the same way. DEC is not good news especially when it is not commom practice in operations. Emirates is becoming another Singapore, or Gulfair, and even Qatar airways might look pretty interesting to you guys pretty soon.
For those who have been there long enough, I am sure it is business as usual, for those that have joined recently well I am sure its going to be an interesting period. For those who were about to join, or who will join, I wish them luck.
All I have to say is what my neighbour down the road said about his BA flying years: "I was lucky enough to fly during the time when flying was dangerous and sex was safe, nowdays its the other way around, Flying is safe and sex is danferous."
If you think about it we are being fu..ed by everyone and it is not even safe...:D

More discussion on this issue is clarifying how important it is for the EK group. I wish you well as I think EK has a bright future and there is a lot of experience in its right seats. I am wondering what sort of seniority list you have and if captains and FOs are on the same list. I am also curious about the sort of representation you have with management.

Could you in a non-confrontational way offer some solutions such as expediting upgrade by lowering the 3 year requirement(perhaps an arbitrary number), or hiring DECs on contract after which they can remain in the position permitted by their DOH, and perhaps even some sort of compensation for the bypassed guys? If it doesn't cost too much extra money or time, they might take it. Everyone knows that it's better for employee morale to promote from within.

Indeed the impression that EK gave was that they were hiring only captains to be. You, somehow cordially, have to remind them of that and the importance of command for your careers and the value of happy pilots/employees. I certainly hope that you are meeting amongst yourselves and with the company to meet the challenge. However, if you should get these DECs, contrary to some unsympathetic remarks above, they will likely be seasoned folks and come in with high regard and respect for the by-passed group.

Good luck folks

Fish,

Looks like we are on the same wavelength afterall.

Cop U Later

The Rev

Wellthis
If Ek were a caring/sharing company that used standard management tools, it would use some of the terms that you stated ie non-confrontational, discussion and representation!! These are not word used at EK, they prefer - it has been decided, due to recent changes we will be etc if you get the drift!!
As for representation on each fleet you have a 'Fleet Manager' to quote one of them 'I have two hats, one is to look after your welfare and the other is a company management hat' - a fine balance, so how much representation do you think we get?
'You, somehow cordially, have to remind them of that and the importance of command for your careers and the value of happy pilots/employees.' - I wish we could!!! The more you remind them the further back your individual career goes!! All the management have their own agenda, as in any company, but here it is:
1. Save you own backside first
2. Secure your own position in the company
3. Do what your told from above - no questions asked (if you do ask then your position will not be secure)
4. Lastly help the guys out if it does not affect 1/2/3 above!!!

Sorry to sound negative but I came from a well respected company in the Uk ( thats enough info as the EK DFO reads pprune!! - hope he's reading this!!). The management style here is lacking to say the least - they say they communicate but I always thought communication was 2 way, we have no redress if we want to keep hopes of promotion alive.

Anybody thinking of coming here take a big long look at what they say you will get, then relate it to what you read here and try to talk to someone at EK - the two do not match!!!!!!!!!


:\

Well this...

We would have hoped that there would have been at least some consultation we the pilots before the decision on DECs were made...there was not. There is also no body which represents the pilots to the management on any issue...too close to a union for comfort.

The fact remains that with better planning the training system would have been in a much healthier state to cope with the known expansion. Instead it has been depleated to the extent that we are now faced with the more expensive and damaging option of DECs... and it still needs to gear up even now.

I believe that there is still time to invoke the right of 'parle' to try and offer a more constructive way forward that would be in all our interests. However there is no such 'right' and the opportunities to talk are few and far between. There is however a pilots meeting on the 29th where I really hope that the anger and frustration felt by many of us will be tempered with rational and constructive ideas on how best to proceed for all of us, pilots and company alike. There is still time to lessen the effects on our careers by DECs and prevent the necessity of revisiting the spectre in the future.

It is in all our interests that EK continues with its expansion. We now have an opportunity to base this growth on a firmer base of trust and cooperation than the sands of distrust and confrontation.

The fat lady hasn't sung yet, but she's on the stage...

Well it is official now, Emirates is looking for Captains A330 A340, but also from other wide body aircraft as it says in its advert in Flight. You can find it on the web www.flightinternationaljobs.com
JP:D

Never Mind the Bollocks
 

Anyone able to post what the DECs will be paid?

I give all due sympathy to the egregiously disadavantaged First Officers, but the captain's salary issue has far more incendiary potential.

I have one word for you.... expatriates.

That is what your managers are

(manager=generic term for entrenched expat senior old boy at ek)

This is what their priorities are.

The club , the image , the kids education , and keeping the beatch in dinner parties.

He doesnt give a toss about you or your command, end of story.

Man in shamag says ***t: he says andrex or charmin sir?one sheet or two?

Those of you that didnt know the expat rules of engagement before leaving for the gulf are now getting a lesson in the nick leeson school of "lesson one on maintaining expat job for managers." (at all costs)

been there done that ate the rabbit. Thank **** for night heraklions

hic hic

jack

ps if the dfo reads this we both know i'm right , eh mate.

The "Captain" was HFO

Then (Briefly) DFO

Now it's SVPFO

The common thread is FO.

Why all the changes?

Not knowing!

halas

Millerscourt

"This DEC business" as you call it isn't getting to me half as much as your pontifications and Sh1t stirrings are. As for the "chip on shoulder" remark, well I have a fairly balanced outlook on life with a big chip on each shoulder,thanks. I am SO relieved that I won't be flying with you. No offence intended.

:ok:

I believe, they will have a very hard time finding "suitable" candidates for those DEC positions - unless they offer much more than the entry level CP package.

Chill out you effo´s in EK.
Seems like the above mentioned "expats" will have quite a bit of explaining to do.
Please don´t let those who have messed up, provoke you into doing stupid things or voicing uncalled for opinions. It would only serve as a smokescreen for those who do not seem to be able to handle the rapid expansion of the company.

Some things actually do need their time...

wonderbus

I agree. Where are they going to get the pilots from?

Gulf Air is about to announce a requirment for 40 to 50 DE 340 drivers aswell. I think Gulf management assumed Singapore Airlines pilots available in droves. But are they?

EK the more professionally desirable but I think there will have to be a premium paid. This may become a poaching exercise as opposed to an available pool of unemployed pilots.

The locals in Singapore Airlines will not move an inch, so forget any of them being available to join EK. Their technique is to encourage ex-pats to seek pastures greener, in the hope of an exodus which will then force the airline (read government) to up the salary package and thus ultimately benefit this “home team”.

The ex-pats to date who’ve been given the bullet (an unnecessary, highly political and ultimately futile “exercise”) in the main seem to be about to move to China Airlines (relatively good salary package) rather than consider EK with much enthusiasm. As far as I can gather, the feeling is of a poison chalice being taken up if they move there (antipathy from future colleagues) plus the salary package being much inferior to that of CAL. Similarly, the ex-pat pilots with sufficient “merit” to remain with SQ for the time being are also unimpressed with the perception of the EK DE package, judging it simply not worth the effort of a shift to the desert.

Fish I suggest you address your remarks about 'aggressive and personal' to Pontious as I was merely responding to his rude ourbursts.

If you look through this subject and see what exactly has been Pontious's contribution you will find that all he is capable of is abuse to ALL contributors not just me. Even now he just cannot avoid being personal.

Over on the Middle East forum under Accelerated Commands Pontious informs everyone that he has been on Line a Whole Month!!!

Now unless he is a complete Retard (and one could perhaps be excused for thinking he is judging by the quality of his postings) then I guess he has been in Emirates for 3-4 Months, so being still Wet behind the Ears perhaps explains why he has nothing worthwhile to say on this subject and shows his real character by resorting to abusive language.

Rev Dr D You ask whether I would be interested in 30000Dirhams per month which = £5000 or US$8000. No is the Answer This is not a contract Salary. If EK are looking for longterm permanent positions they might just get away with this .

Pontious If I were to join EK on the salaries mentioned I would certainly not brag about it to my one and only friend!! I would keep it very quiet as he would think I had lost my marbles!! :{

Hmmm, the kind of salaries hinted at look more like rather 'long term' to me.
Even carriers like AirAtlanta can do better.

411A I have just looked up the Emirates Web Site where full details are given of the Package.

They have widened the Net to include A330 Pilots but also anything above 55000kgs.

Salary is Dhs 23920 per month= £4000Stg or US$6400 per month plus a few extra odds and ends.

Positions are PERMANENT so could attract a few disaffected Charter Airline Pilots who fancy a few years in the Desert. + Garuda./Phillipine Airlines . Doubt if any Air France or Lufthansa Pilots will be knocking at the door!! Not a very good deal but it depends on your situation.

Hi All,

The DE CPT requirements seem to have changed AGAIN....

On www.emiratesgroupcareers.com the requirements are now:

MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS

Requirements for Position of Direct Entry Captain

A minimum of 10,000 hours total flying time
A minimum of 3,000 hours in command of multi-crew, multi-engine jet aircraft in excess of 55,000 KGS MTOW
Preference for short listing will be given to A340/A330 rated pilots and those with wide body experience. A background in training would also be advantageous.
ICAO ATPL
Applicants must be less than 56 years on joining
Experience commensurate with age



In the previous 2 company requirement MEMO's (last one less than 24hrs ago!), widebody or type rated experience was required....now they seem to have changed it AGAIN...to ">55T command". Means B737, A320 a.s.o. guys can apply now as well!!! This will make open the door to a hell more canidates!!!

Don't know what I have to think about all of this...EK is a very dynamic company, but changing requirements AGAIN in less than 24hrs....Don't know, but what will change after this, salaries, accomodation allowances.....???? Make up your mind guys!

It used to be a nice company to work for since I joined (+1 year), but it all seems to degrade very, very rapidly!!!

Guys wanting to join now....please think twice before coming over! I probably wouldn't do it again with all I have seen in the last couple of weeks.

To make it clear, I personally understand that there is a requirement for some DE CPT's, but the way requirements come down, from high requirements (wide-body, type-rated...etc...), to a lot lower requirements, bothers me...and probably not only me!


CU,


If I will still be here!!?? ... I'll probably start to look around for something else!



:mad:

Yesterday that was the requirements for the "accelerated command".

Now that has been rmoved all together!?!?!

halas

Wouldn't that be ironic if they ended up taking 737 or A320 drivers over our experienced F/O's.

Not that I have anything against 737 or 320 drivers, but you can't convince me that guys with narrow body experience (albeit !!!!!loads of it) are a huge improvement on our experienced F/O's who have time on type, know the routes and company and the company knows them.

Interesting times ahead for sure

Cop U Later

The Rev

EK380 you scare easy....If the requirements have changed to widden the net then surely this will catch more current EK F/Os who can take some of these commands. If that is so, then as a group, the accellerated command guys waiting their turn must be better off. Even if just one current F/O qualifies then the guys behind him move up the line. Am I missing somethine here? These are new a/c orders that no one had planned until very recently, certanly after all but the most recently recruited F/O's joined EK. So time to command has not been delayed from what it appeared at time of joining. What has happened is that the opportunity for an even faster command has not been offered..at least not to all, as some guys within EK will have the hours and will therefor benefit.


("In comming....")

Max,

You are almost correct. I think for many F/O', command will be somewhere near where they would have been had we not purchased these extra aircraft which forced the requirement for DE captains.

There is however a large group of 777 F/O's who are now stuck on type (because there are no transition upgrades and no new aircraft deliveries for some time) who will probably be looking at 4years or more to command. I know that is not a long time in the big scheme of things, but it does take on greater signifigance when you have been bypassed by your mate on the 330, and the company is hiring DEC's

The additional problem from a morale point of view is that once the company has taken the step toward DE commands, there can be no guarantee (given EK's history of not honoring the agreements it makes with joining pilots) where it will all end.

It would seem to me that on the surface DE commands will provide a reasonable cost saving to the company, and having watched this company operate for some years now, I am concerned that they will keep the DE option open long after the real requirement has been fulfilled.

The main argument against this is that I believe the effects would soon be seen in the recruiting department. i.e fewer applications by far less experienced F/O's.

Cop U Later

The Rev

Sorry to say this, (thought I would be nice...)and many will disagree, but First Officers are a dime a dozen.

Experienced Captains are alltogether different, but with the salaries offered...may be big time trouble.

A re-think is in order for management in regards to salaries for direct entry guys.

411A,

You are probably right about F/O's being a dime a dozen, but there is a significant difference between fronting up for a job in the USA or Europe, where reasonable workplace practices are enforced (to a greater or lesser degree) and packing your family up for the middle east, to join a company that has shown it won't honour commintments made during recruiting.

Additional to that, many of our F/O's are experienced Captains that are in the process of being shafted. As we all know, recruiting is as much word of mouth as anything else. What do you think these guys will be telling their mates back home at the moment?

Cop U Later

The Rev

Pontious, Re: Your post of 21 Sept directed at millerscourt

- Reading ALL of your posts on this thread, are you sure you "Fit the Emirates Bill"?
On first appearances, judged by your postings anyway, I bet you're the kind of guy who,if successful, will be bragging to his friend (note singular) down the pub,
" Ah,yes I'm off to the Big Sand Pit to teach Johnny Foreigner how to fly aeroplanes,don't you know!”

IMHO you seem a little too wrapped up in yourself, have little or no concept of what life in Dubai is like, an inherent hostility t'wards change and a blatant card-carrying, whinging racist to boot. No offence,mate but I don't think you are the kind of pompous arsehole that EK would entertain. But please, feel free to keep us informed how your application is proceeding. -

I’ve re-read the millerscourt posts on this thread and nowhere do I see any hint of evidence to support your suggestions or allegations spat out above. Perhaps you reveal a little too much of your own psyche with this invective – suggesting baggage which may hinder you in your own command selection when testing comes up and in turn, cast doubt on your suitability to “fit the bill”.