As a wise man once wrote..."Oh mama, you got me livin' on the front-line..."

Ain't it true. :cool:

You're absolutely right, I have been succumbed into taking my eye off the ball.
But in my defence, I will say that it was only because I can't stand the thought of the many good F/O's here who are being disadvantaged, having to fly with someone who doesn't seem to care.

Nevertheless I admit to attacking the man and not the ball, so that's it for me on this thread.

Cop U Later

The Rev

As maxalt says below:

“But afterward, even though I 'passed' and was offered the job, I have to say that the stupidity and insulting nature of the process began to bear down on me, and it did play a part in my decision not to join up.

In short, as others have said, the selection process is a sham, and is (I believe) more aimed at discouraging applications from anyone who might 'have an attitude' and give EK some trouble if they are not getting everything their own way.

A traditional interview with any of the candidates in my group would have produced exactly the same outcome IMHO.”

And as others on this thread have suggested, why exactly do experienced and competent professionals have to jump through the above type of selection hoops that seem to have emerged in our industry, over the past decade or so? I’m not sure that doctors, lawyers, accountants architects etc, etc are required to undergo similar stuff when they move to greener (or less brown) pastures. Could anyone correct me here, if I’m labouring under a delusion?

Finally, I agree that an in-depth and professional selection programme is required to recruit new entrants to aviation – eg. Air Force/Navy/Airline Cadetships – but is exactly the same programme required for seasoned, known quality professionals, such as, in the case of this thread, the DE captains required by EK? (and no, I haven't applied - I'm afraid the money isn't good enough)

I may be wrong on this count, and I'm not trying to defend the company at this point but the lengthy recruitment process may have something to do with all the nationalities we have to work with.

We have something like 50 different nationalities working at EK on the flight deck. This may not be unique, but it certainly is unusual. Along with this 50 different nationalities comes quite a bit of cultural diversity. Like jumping out of the seat just prior to descent to pray for 5 minutes!

The recruiting process puts you with 3 other guys of different cultures and makes the group carry out problem solving exercises. Some of these exercises deliberately pit one team member against the other. The outcome does give a fairly good indication of how any individual can work with others of different cultural backgrounds where language is a problem. And believe me, not everyone can.

Some of you may say "why would language be a problem, as they all speak english". I can tell you there is a huge variation in what can be called English. It can be difficult and frustrating at times trying to communicate your intentions to the guy in the other seat when you are dealing with something out of the ordinary, as we do in the Sim every 6 months.

The actual flying side of things seems to be given only a cursory look. They throw you in the sim for half an hour to see if you can actually fly a big jet. This gives an idea of whether all the hours in the log book are likely to be correct. The tech quiz is simple. So it seems they use the same technique as everyone else when evaluating the pilot. All the touchy feely stuff is to evaluate the man (no girls allowed).

It may be over the top, but it does produce good guys. There are very few d**k heads in EK (management excluded) and I think that is a direct result of the recruiting process.

The need for DE captains has no reflection on the recruiting process. It is a management stuff up which started a couple of years ago, and we are now seeing the results. Having said that, it is now unavoidable if we are to continue the rapid expansion

Max Alt To suggest that anyone joining EK as a DEC is a Scab is ludicrous in the extreme. I cannot take anything you say now seriously..

The Rev Dr D Are you too beginning to lose your cool over this DEC business?? I have always found your reports balanced and Yes I agree it must be a shock for those ex Captains who joined as F/O's to find themselves in this position but correct me if I am wrong but any F/O in EK who has the required Wide Body Command hours and total of 10000hrs has been told to make his case for an Upgrade???

As 411A says never go from LHS to RHS unless in desperation and remember once you join an expat Airline you are on your own with no backup.It has always been thus.

High Cirrus Yes the Package is not good as you say. US$6400 per month. Accommodation is a hit and miss affair by all accounts and on a Take it or Lump it basis.

If EK think that seasoned Captains are prepared to play silly games over Three Days in order to satisfy an Empire Building HR Dept which as other people have said proves nothing much then I think they will have trouble attracting the right people.

All of this should please the present emcumbents in EK as the Company might find that not everyone wants to join!! Sure there will be perhaps thousands of applications but every job in Flight Interrnational gets the same response.

White Knight Are you still seeing EK through your Rose Tinted Spectacles???? You have said on many occasions that you joined EK for the Lifestyle and not the Money!! Having now seen what the Payscales are for F/O's in EK I see what you mean!!!! But what kind of Lifestyle can you have on that Money???

Higncirrus (and MaxAlt), seeing as you both have made it abundantly clear that you aren't interested in employment with EK, why are you so concerned about the lengh/validity/credence of the selection process?
You won't be going through it and I'm sure(?) you have more important things to worry about, so in the words of another wise man: "Let it be, let it be..."

Dumpvalve How come you are not around the Pool having a good old gossip with all the other wives???

Dumpvalve

Whilst I am completely uninterested in either making an application to, or even joining EK, I am interested in the present and future terms and conditions of both myself and my colleagues in an industry of which you only seem to be a proxy member.

millerscourt, what's the difference between "gossip" and "rumour" (as in PPRumourNetwork) anyway? Not much, as I'm sure you'll concede. But you probably think your gossip is of a higher calibre....

Dumpvalve

Don't let them get to you. Simply put them on your "Ignore" list because they are just a pair of "Wind-up W*****s!" I just shows how desperate they are to try and p**s a few more people off when they start to provoke the Rev. These two are the only ones keeping this topic going but have you noticed the DEC issue isn't even featuring on the EK Pilot's Forum? Good luck and see you around.

:ok:

In case you're tempted and find yourself reading this Reverend, no harm done. You are absolved of your sins.

I am affected by and therefore have an interest in what the other pilot thinks about, aspires to, and achieves.

It's not the warm feeling I have for my children, so one might say I don't really 'care'.

Yet that'd be misleading, for it's not entirely correct, and anyway, it's not whether I care or not that matters.

EK are employing DEC's; not to break a strike, a people's spirit, or their right to an association.

EK are doing this as an employer who, for one reason or another, cannot find it within to fill the advance underway.

I'm for growth, not decay. Progress, not regress. Hope, not despair.

It is unfortunate to see plans go awry, especially those of my aviating colleagues, but do you chaps really see the enemy as the DEC?

That's not reasonable.

I feel one more thing should be said. It may be viewed as somewhat harsh, but in light of several comments made by various respondents, I feel it is necessary, perhaps if only to vent my spleen.

No current, experienced Captain entering Emirates in that capacity would brook any interference in the smooth running of his well-trained and effective crew, in EK or otherwise, especially if it came in the guise of a disaffected and disgruntled First Officer.

We would all best be reminded that Emirates would, I assume, be on the lookout for such incidents, and meet them with the full force of an airline who's flight safety is being compromised.

druckmefunk


Err...there were a few English, a Scotsman, a Welshman and an Irishman on my batch. Now I know the Brits do indeed come from a different culture, but we managed to get by anyhow. :p

I once worked at a certain asian company where I saw a few of the types you wouldn't want.

They were mostly thick headed ex RAF types who treated all locals as if they were coolies.

Embarrassing in the extreme.

Aussies seem to have the same bad attitude in smaller degrees.

We Paddys don't have a post imperialist hangover, unlike the Brits. We tend to treat people as we find them, and are pretty tolerant of others, especially when we are guests in their country.

Maybe thats why theres a Paddy running EK, and why they chose Paddys to set it up in the first place. :E

1.The only criteria that has changed is for accelerated commands. Those of you who are no longer eligible and are upset about the change should realize that you were beneficiaries of a past changed policy that adversely affected people above you on the seniority list. The company sets the criteria according to what it deems sufficient. You can't play both sides of the fence.

2. The 340's that may be coming are in addition to any orders that were announced before you arrived and will not affect your "projected" command date in any way under the normal upgrade rules. It should in fact make the time to command more harmonized with the seniority list.

3. If the company decides that buying a bunch of aircraft at cents on the dollar prices is good business, I for one will trust them as they continue to have the right answers for the time in an extremely difficult industry. We will all benefit from increased market share and more profit.

Try to have a slightly more optimistic outlook on the future of a great company.

Millerscourt, you are a d... if you happen to find yourself in Dubai, you would do best to keep your ignorant and outdated attitudes to yourself. You might find that certain people would "strenuously and vigorously" defend their opposite way of viewing the situation here in Dubai. By the way, assimilating the new SOP, FOM... etc, etc without the assistance of those who you seem to have no regard for will be a task that I'm sure will have you on a one way ticket back to your trailer and third wife in no time.

Maxalt

Given the history of the English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh, it comes as no surprise that you weren't able to pass the apptitude testing at EK.

I think you have proved my point.

The Paddys running the show didn't have to pass any pain in the arse aptitude tests!
Load of codswallop.

Aptitude tests are only 'a load of codswallop' if you haven't got any aptitude.

Its like when a guy screws up his PPC, it was always the examiners fault even if his name was Mr Claus, never the guy himself.



:zzz:

Maxalt

Who's the "Paddy" running EK?

:ok:

Life as a journey

I don't think the threat to the safety of a flight will come from the righthand seat. I expect the REAL danger comes from a "High-houred, highly experienced" Captain who thinks that he will be able muddle on through his short career with Emirates without learning the EK SOP's and that his previous employers' SOP's will suffice. I would have no qualms whatsoever about reporting a DEC for non-compliance of SOP's, not out of malice you understand,but to protect my own arse and the arses' of the several hundred passengers and crew we could be carrying. As previously stated on a similar thread I am so relieved that I didn't volunteer for the A340 fleet.

Millerscourt and High Cirrus.

I see a pattern developing here with regard to responces to your posts. Keep it up,Gentlemen,keep it up!!!

:ok:

Pontius,

"i would have no qualms in reportng a captain etc etc"

ex air 2000. why does that not surprise me.
see how long you last pulling that crm trick to boost your status.
expat companies are small worlds.


you may not be as anonymous as you think.

yeah your not bitter. whatever mate.

cant wait to hear from you after your first run in with an arab.

first expat job is it...?

enjoy

Farty Flaps

If it's unsafe it's my duty to speak up. Wouldn't you?

:ok:

What's with the dig at exAir2000 people,FF?

Pontius, if you work at Emirates you should know this.

Maurice Flanagan

The first FOM was a Paddy too....Lar Smith.

Aha ! A navigator . . .

Millers court - my dear fellow, I definately don't need £500,000 in my pocket to enjoy my life and lifestyle. Obviously you are one of those boring types who talks about pensions and stock options the whole damn time.
So, I no longer qualify for accelerated command. I'm not crying over spilt milk, I knew enough about Dubai before deciding to move here that things can change, and you can't do anything about it. There are a lot of commands coming up in the next few years and with some 26 years to retirement for me I'm happy to accept the three years. No choice really so just get on with it - besides it'll probably all change in the next few months again anyway when they can't find enough suitable people. It is actually a FIVE day screening process folks...
411a- Remember that the worlds worst civil aviation disaster was caused by the chief training captain, 747 at KLM. All your talk of needing 50,000 hours is BOLLOCKS. A guy with 10,000 hours of which 8,000 are long haul is not as EXPERIENCED as a guy with 4,000 hours shorthaul. Maybe the wool in front of your blinkered eyes means you just can't understand that.
If I have to fly with a DEC that's fine by me - I always do my job as professionally as possible. And I'll even talk to them as I'm generally mr nice guy. :ok:
Can't say anymore as my wife and I are going out for drinks and dinner in a short while - no lifestyle heh??

White Knight,

EK management (not surprisingly) don't seem to agree with your ideas...they still want that 10,000 hours.

Better luck next time.:E

Updating application
 

What is going on when updating an application with EK?
You go there, update it and the next time you check your application you realize it is the very same you had BEFORE you entered your last update.
It seems that the updating engine is not working properly.
Any ideas?

I have just recieved a job offer from Ek.

The interview took place in the masonic lodge in hong kong over a very agreeable port, as is normal in the expat world.

Unfortunately i have turned it down, mostly because the 3000hrs i have on wide bodies and 10000 on other bodies actually refered to my youthful prediliction for fat birds.

felt i should come clean.

PONTIUS,

it may be your duty. BUT in the world of uk mixing with the payroll is a like having the clap and thus your actions would not over flow into your personnal life. Not so in the expat world.its all one cross company bar bque world with a veneer of pleasantnes and smiles, and a reality of character destruction.

officially on the record you wouldnt be judged as a sneak and you be praised for your professionalism but you can bet your bottom dirham the barbque circuit will ruin your reputation.Fact of expat life i'm afraid. particularly if the chap you report has some old school mates already in the company. aviation is a small world and dubai and the like even smaller.best sort it out in the cockpit.

just a thought from experience.

dont try to argue the case for how god dubai is as i was expating before you got a licence.
have fun and dont scratch an arabs car.

Its all in "expating for dummies" by Tex Free at ali babas book bazaar

Cut him some slack Fish he's from San Francisco. I think it's compulsory there.

Maurice Flannagan is actually English. Born and raised in Lancashire according to the interview with the Emirates in-house magazine.

dicksynormous...


...by name, enormous dick by nature. Are you ex-(or soon to be ex) Cathay by any chance?

Same question applies to High Cirrus & Millerscourt.

:ok:

Pontius,

No but i did go out with a girl called cathy once. So that would make me cathy's ex

All 'm saying is its different to the way things are in uk.
be careful. you are only as secure as your last row with a local,and chances are may take on a skpper with more expat political savvy than yerself.

good luck.

Pontious

I had already made intimation on the subject, in my post of 25 Sept, but your subsequent posts to date would seem to confirm both your strident immaturity, as exemplified by your propensity for serial name calling and your worrying naivety in matters professional and social, as pointed out by dicksynormous.

I’m afraid that you really do not make a very good case for the efficacy of the EK selection process and I’m sure that, if indeed Fish is correct and your senior management is looking in on the unedifying spectacle provided by your clumsy debating style, they will be deeply worried that not only have they been landed with an individual of such transparent limitation but that there may be many more such individuals within the ranks, who at least, though, have the saving grace of not revealing themselves as the fools they so patently are.

Highcirrus (as opposed to low cirrus??), by taking the cheapest of cheap goading shots, did you hope to fire up the EK masses, by insinuating that many of them are, quote "fools"?
Gotta learn to take that six-shooter out of the holster before pulling the trigger - your credibility is in tatters.

Hmm…. Seems like EK is having a bit of difficulty in making the numbers of suitable DE candidates who would be prepared to jump from SQ, to man the new A340-300’s. Could it be pilot inertia or maybe the modest EK benefit package on offer?

jstars2 I don't think that EK are seriously expecting any SQ A340 Pilots to join not only because the Salary Package is as you say well below making it worth considering but also all these A340 guys are now on either the B777/B744 with a 3 year Bond.

Also EK expect DEC's to take a weeks leave and spend 5 days jumping through all these hoops. This alone will deter a lot of suitable candidates from elsewhere.

Suspect that many of the younger guys (at EK and elsewhere) have never fully come to understand that when an airline recruits DE Captains, the road is paved with the expectation that these guys will not put up with BS....and they usually do not.

The airline recruiting either wants professional experienced Captains, or they do not, junior co-pilots opinions notwithstanding.

Obviously 411a the Arizona sun has fried the last little brain cell you had in your thick head. Have you not worked out yet from the EK posters here that the majority of FO's here at EK are not "junior" FO's like in most of the worlds airlines. A large proportion have had considerable PROFESSIONAL COMMAND experience, as well as holding TRAINING and EXAMINING positions.

Oh well, you are wrapped up in your little "I'm a wonderful management, test pilot, walter mitty kind of person" Get a life - you spend too much time at the keyboard spouting cr*p.

You seemed to have missed the point completely, White Knight,
as the First Officers at EK now were hired as...First Officers, irrespective of their previous experience or exhaultd positions.

The company could use any selection process it wanted (and apparently did) to entice these folks to join, in anticipation of a, more or less, rapid upgrade.

Clearly the thinking within the company has changed however, as DE Captains are now required.
Guys hired directly into the left seat are harder to come by than co-pilots, and in every company that I have been associated with, these direct entry Captains (and especially training Captains) have been eased right into the operation with the minimum of problems, a few disgruntled co-pilots notwithstanding.

If these co-pilots within the company now had wished to be Captains at EK, they clearly should have applied as such, and not accepted a junior position.

Promises are one thing, a signed employment contract quite another.

Looks like the junior guys at EK fell for the 'promises'....the direct entry Captains will certainly be just a bit smarter.

It has always been thus in the ex-pat world, and certainly not likely to change anytime soon....like it or not.

411A Have you noticed how the likes of FcU, White Knight and Pontious can only hurl insults and abuse which demeans any point they are trying to make and merely shows how intellectually flawed they are???

Just have a look at their previous posts and you will see what I mean. :8

Without a doubt, millerscourt...the folks you mention have a lot to learn about the expat scene.
They were stupid enough to buy the BS that EK spread 'round...now they will just have to sit back and watch others, who undoubtedly, are far more experienced, lap up the gravy.

Break out the small violins, my heart cries for them....not.

Tough beans.:{ :{ :{ :E

millerscourt

Just returned from Singapore where I saw a number of my SIA cronies. Seems you’re right about the bond – a lot of the boys are stuck with it and now that SIA have fired, quote “the ones we wanted rid of”, the airline is not keen on letting any more guys leave. Also people are hanging on as usual for the rest of 2002’s bonus payment, the 13th month payment in Jan ’04 and the return of their cash currently hijacked – err, sorry, held by the airline as a 22% pay cut (some say as an interest free loan) and apparently only returnable if SIA makes S$700M+ profit for 2003. So even though the boys are absolutely livid about the pay cut plus, incidentally, a unilateral move to dump the Pilots Provident Fund and loath SIA even more than they did, they are unlikely to go through the hassle of a shift to a LHS position with EK that would seem to pay them about the same pittance. The only guys in a position to transit from SIA to EK, of course, are the ones who were “let go”.

Also the reputation of EK seems to have diminished amongst our SE Asia colleagues. They perceive EK going along the same lines as SIA – stealthy salami cuts to benefits, staff travel, housing etc plus growing indifference to the welfare and aspirations of their work force. I guess we’re seeing this latter with the kick in the slats to the FO’s with the recruitment of DEC’s. I would imagine quite a few of this group, who in the past seem to have had their heads in the sand, will be highly miffed that they gave up previous commands to join EK and are now being sidelined.

Isn’t ex-pat life wonderful?