that was just BS runned by dutch idiots
we are doing things by ourselves this time...

And just WHAT is it that you have been doing?

You will see! so far is not your matter

Surely if you're spending that kind of money then anyone with half a brain should realise that you shouldn't take what the flight schools feed you as gospel. It's all about research, I'm sure a little Google search would throw up allsorts, including this forum. Targeted training is what it's all about and to be honest, you're right, how can you pay a mortgage on a flight instructor's salary? The point is you probably shouldn't have got that far in the first place if you did your research properly.
Also if it's a lie what CTC feed you then that's false advertising, they can be prosecuted for that, it's every bit the cadet's fault for just throwing money at them without researching it further to come up with an informed decision.
Starry eyed wannabes were throwing money at the flight schools in the middle of the deepest recession in living memory with little chance of a job at the end of it. You have to question the naivety. Is that the flight schools fault? Hell no.

Well let's put it another way. Cadets could be putting money into university for no guaranteed job at the end or they could take out the debt and have a guaranteed job which will pay around £100k a year with Ryanair. Sure they will treat you like **** but honestly, the entire jobs market is rubbish, not just aviation. Sure the unemployment figures are low, but many of those jobs are zero or low hour contracts. Even if they aren't being paid as much as pilots were 15 years ago, it's a hell of a lot more than they could be getting otherwise.

For them they are getting a chance to earn big money. It's only the ones who were earning bigger money before that are complaining. I'm not saying it's right, but that's how it is.

A guarenteed job
 

Guaranteed job with a 100k salary for new cadets.. hmmm I get your point about kids gambling blindly on uni but with Ryanair i'm not sure where you got that from.. theres nothing guaranteed in an FR contract!!!! Have you ever been charged £250 to be interviewed for a job in which case might you ever want to complain by way of looking ahead of what might be to come with that company culture? Its the F/O's that are leaving as much as the Skippers who may have earned bigger desert cash before- your very much wrong they are the only ones who are complaining. FR when you join is nothing more than slavery.

Skornogr4phy
I think being in this industry has made you a bit cynical, the entire job market isn't rubbish. Sure, you can pay 100k to get a job in the left seat earning 40k, which if all goes well will be 100k one day. A kid I know has just landed a city job, straight out of Uni, earning 40k a year and she will work damn hard. But, she'll also get every weekend off, won't have to fight to see Xmas at home,won't suffer jetlag, will be treated with considerable respect (so long as she works hard) and has the potential to make a salary which would make a TRE wince. Her debt from Uni was 50k. This isn't that uncommon a story, the big names in London (and in the provinces) take on hundreds of folk like this every year. Why in the world would she want to be a pilot? This industry is a busted flush for the new guys, but there are plenty of opportunities out there for bright people.

But what are the pilots going to do?..


I'll get my hat... :ouch:

Ryanair pilots reject bonus to work through cancellation crisis.

Yes, they take on hundreds. However the UK produces 250,000 or so graduates a year. Of which about a third end up in "non-professional" jobs. So, yes, unless you are willing to gamble that you will be one of the hundreds getting a top city job, the Ryanair route is a more certain bet. FWIW, my nephew decided not to go to university at all, cost/ benefit not worth it, went straight into book-keeping. He's doing fine, training on day release courses etc, but at the age of 22 still no hope of being able to leave home, given the local housing market. But at least he isn't 50+k in the hole, and his chance of getting a 'glittering prize' was, realistically, pretty low. (not public school, wouldn't have got into oxbridge, had offers from decent tier 2 universities)

the daily mirror just published an article in which the chief Ryanair spokesman is quoted as saying 'we do not operate zero hour contracts'. I'm stunned. They may have stopped it but they were operating zero hour contracts for a very long time, I know because I had one! Can anyone else confirm they've read this?

I am paying a mortgage on a dispatchers Salary.dont drive a fancy car and dont pay allamony. Life is about choices.

Yes nsc you chose to be a dispatcher. Life is indeed about choices. You can make a choice right now if you like! Go on google and look up 'ame'. Pay this guy 300 quid and get a class one medical. If you pass that go to your bank manager and ask him for 150k straight up because you want to be a pilot.

Assuming he doesn't laugh his ass off you then go to a flight school (you will need to pay for your accommodation, family home, meals other debts etc) and start studying for you atpl exams. Assuming you pass them you will also need to pass your ppl, cpl and multi IR flight tests. And right about then you'll have to do another medical. Imagine your financial status if you fail?

So after all that's done you'll need your last 30k to actually pay an airline to allow you to work for them.


Life is all about choices.

There seems to be some thread drift here .....but this makes good reading. I really hope the RYR guys stick together and get a slice of the €1.3 billion profit that was made from their ( and all the other staff) efforts.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/give-us-new-contracts-pilots-tell-ryanair-bosses-as-tensions-mount-36153858.html

As the article states it's a pivotal moment .....for the future of European aviation as a career

Did I mention sim checks twice per year for the rest of your career? Medical once a year then sometimes twice depending on how old you are? Line checks at random, usually once or twice per year? All of these are a chance at losing your entire income in a few minutes unless you're good enough. Don't like that kind of pressure, that kind of insecurity? Well that's not a problem find a job where you don't have to deal with those issues. I haven't a clue what's it like to be a doctor, but I know that the successful plastic surgeon ones doing fake boobs are paid a lot more than the ones treating children with cancer. Is that fair? I dunno. Maybe I would know if I had the brains to be a doctor and put silicone into breast tissue, but I don't and that means I don't tell plastic surgeons to behave in a manner I deem appropriate.

:} I don't think MOL would be quite so supportive of Norwegian now...

Norwegian Airlines: Ryanair's O'Leary blasts Bernie Sanders opposition to Cork/US flights - Independent.ie

Good luck to all those trying to organise some demands!

They will never admit it publicly but FR probably realise some improvements to pilot conditions are needed when they are this short of pilots.

There are plenty of options around the world now so there is no guarantee that Air Berlin and Alitalia pilots will flock to FR in their droves, especially with such poor contracts and an absolutely toxic reputation for the way they treat their staff.

I'm also delighted that for the first time in my memory, the media is calling this for what it is.

News outlets from BBC to Bloomberg are rightly calling this a "pilot shortage." Not a single one is believing the BS about staff holidays!

Any UK based Ryanair pilots care to comment on what the mood is at Stansted. Is everybody clamouring for the retention bonus or are they going to ignore it?

Hi Freehills
yes, you are quite right, and I have the utmost sympathy for the millions who were conned by Tony Blair into thinking that any old degree would unlock the door to riches.

I was trying to make the comparison between the amount of 'bright' people who get top graduate jobs outside of airlines, on a similar start salary, with the number of people who start as airline pilots each year.

Anyway, I would also like to wish the RYR working groups the best of luck in trying to improve their lot. And the BBC for once, for accurately reporting the IR issues at RYR, instead of regurgitating the RYR press releases.

You don't need an exceptional, Brain, as you put it, to be a doctor. Just a bloody good memory and of course dedication and a liking for sick people. Trust me, I should know, I'm a doctor

Exactly!! Well said. And that applies to the pilots who are going to strike this Saturday at TCX

The answer is to NOT leave, rather to stay and change things for the better. Leaving is just another form of defeat, of appeasement. However much you give in terms of pay and conditions people like O'Leary will always want more.

Ryanair pilots: get organised.

Pilots in Dublin are getting a 10,000€ payrise? What about my base 😬

"Ryanair plans to make pilots change holidays" reports the BBC

Ryanair plans to make pilots change holidays - BBC News


"Mr O'Leary told the AGM that Ryanair was facing a "significant management failure".
He said pilots who had a four-week block of holidays coming up in the next few months because of rota changes would be told to take three weeks instead and have the other week in January.
He said the firm did not need pilots' agreement for the change.
Mr O'Leary said the cancellations had cost Ryanair about 25 million euros (£22m).
He accused unions of trying to give the company "a bloody nose" and said staff did not want union representation."

MOL doesn't seem very humble.

MOL is going to learn the hard way, the ball is in pilots camp

Seems that the obvious solution of pis$ing people off more was missed by all of us!

Ryanair have just announce that they are allowing a vote to strike by pilots for the first time in their history. They are charging £10 for each ballot paper.

They have just announced at the AGN that they intend to hire 150 new pilots in the next two weeks.

The basic RYR deal to employees and contractors is the same as their offer to passengers. But for any reason you don't fulfil your part you get nothing or RYR decide for any reason they don't like you, you also you get nothing. There is no certainty but things generally work out. But that's the deal, take it or leave it. It will suit many people and if it suits you, that's fine.

But any agreement offered by RYR has no heart or compassion in it. There are no favours requested and none offered. So quite why any pilot, contractor or supplier should do RYR any favours beats me. MOL has moaned and complained about greedy pilots for years and reduced had everything his own way. He now needs to call in a few favours but has none owing. This is demonstrated by its constant press briefings. This morning the BBC told us that pilot unions were holding out for better terms and conditions which is very few have taken up RYR's "generous bonus package". I never realised RYR were unionised. I also wonder how many pilots have enough hours left to actually work, even if they wanted to. Again, another bit of negative spin against "greedy pilots".

This is a company with no goodwill in fact it has the complete opposite; I'm sure there are many people who would love to stick the boot in and it falls, give it a good kicking as well. Remember, kick RYR as hard as they will kick you.

Heard on the radio Ryanair pilots are having meetings across the bases to collectively negotiate t&c’s. Well done to you all, this can be a turning point in European aviation for pilots as a profession and you have the full support of your colleagues in every other airline (for what it’s worth).

Good luck, your holding all the cards. I really hope you get the renumeration that you deserve as probably the hardest working pilots in the world.

Think on these words that were written nearly 70 years ago, far more eloquent a reply to your unwise post than I could write.

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me"

Martin Niemöller † 6. März 1984

The very best of luck to you all at RYR for trying to improve your conditions. And for TCX this weekend, keep up the good work.

Words can't describe how much these managers are despised... Yet they seem in such denial! Hilarious.

Trying to add some context, I think we should remember that Ryanair did allow the pilot market continue during the 'dark years'. It would be interesting to see how many pilots got their first jet job because of MOL, despite the global downturn. Where he has gone wrong is in failing to recognise that the pilot market is now buoyant and people will simply shop around for the best deal, for them. Ironically, his shortage of pilots is partly due to them adopting the same hard-nosed, self-orientated mentality that has been successful for Ryanair to date. The Branson "look after your staff" quote is so apt.

Personally, I hope that this is turned into a positive for all.

I completely see where you're coming from, but it's important to also remember that they didn't take any pilots on as a favour. They did it to exploit the large numbers of pilots available and their willingness to accept less favourable terms to get a job. There is NOTHING charitable about any of it.

So the point you're making is what? People shouldn't be able to fight for the terms and conditions they think they're worth? I'm going to go with cretin, but could just as easily be troll.

MOL talks about a "significant management failure" which is true (if not possibly an understatement), but this problem has not arisen at the turn of a switch, it must have been building for some time. So who was it that knew about it and more importantly why wasn't preventive action identified and taken sooner.

I would imagine that heads will roll in the management team, if they haven't already. I can't help believe that some time ago someone had all the information to predict this and either prevent it, or at least minimise it. I suspect that someone didn't speak up for fear of delivering a message that they knew would not want to be heard, probably says a lot about the management culture.

.. and indeed you could argue that a large part of their (early) business model came about by recognising there was a mismatch between supply and demand of pilots in the market and exploiting that.

Now, of course, the boot is on the other foot.

Ryanair pilots... I'm not one of you, I fly for another loco, but if ever you had the opportunity to demand change, better working conditions and union representation this is it! Don't be bought off. Good luck !