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-   -   SAS Ireland SAIL (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/590393-sas-ireland-sail.html)

172_driver 1st Feb 2017 12:54

SAS Ireland SAIL
SAS complements its production with a new air operator certificate (AOC) and bases outside Scandinavia | SAS

The Scandinavian pilots are too expensive, time to open a 'new' SAS outside of Scandinavia. Will be interesting (probably sad..) to see what terms new hires will be on. A unionized that airline that last year showed that some power still lies with its employees. They will now be completely undermined.

Sidestick_n_Rudder 1st Feb 2017 13:17

Any idea where and what are they going to fly?

172_driver 1st Feb 2017 13:30

The press release mentions bases in London this year and Spain next.

BluSdUp 1st Feb 2017 16:27

The Cancer spreads!
This move by our proud Scandinavian Flag carrier makes me sick.
When are we going to stop this madness ?
IFALPA and the national unions are not heard from. Have they all given up?

That little island with no respect for ANY worker , shall now take over as The European powerhouse of aviation. What a joke.

And NO the SAS pilots are not expensive anymore.( stocks went up 5%, dressing the bride for Lufthansa Group? They already operate 30% cheaper than LH)
It is the new A320neo that will most likely be based in Heathrow and Malaga on local terms.

I think history will show that this is the way to go for more accidents.
Its all about money now, no more stable predictable life for pilots.

I should have taken those 2.5 mill swiss francs inbound the alps and just kept on going,,,

:mad:, to late now.
Power to the People
Rant over

Avenger 1st Feb 2017 19:19

Cost advantage
The Irish unit will hire locally, while its cost advantage is more likely to come from lower social security expenses and taxes rather than from reduced wages, spokesman Fredrik Henriksson said.
Services will begin with “a handful of aircraft” with the same livery and service offering as SAS’s existing fleet.
It's all the open prisons that cost the money!

captplaystation 1st Feb 2017 19:25

Nothing to add


SAS obviously decided "if you can't beat them , join them" . . . . . . .

Or, on a lighter note


RAT 5 1st Feb 2017 19:26

How did Ireland morph into Liberia?

Denti 1st Feb 2017 21:53

Well, with an announcement like that i wonder why SAS airplanes are still flying today? Take a leaf outta TUIflys book and simply stop flying... Apparently it does help sometimes.

172_driver 1st Feb 2017 22:13

IFALPA and the national unions are not heard from. Have they all given up?
What can they do when pilots are hired by a company set up outside of Scandinavia? I am sure they're up to their ears trying to figure this out themselves.





CAT.GEN.100 Competent authority
The competent authority shall be the authority designated by the Member State in which the operator has its principal place of business

How on earth are the office clerks at the IAA supposed to know what's going on in the operation they're providing oversight for?

BluSdUp 2nd Feb 2017 09:57

Liberia indeed.
Rat 5
Spot on You are, how did the most incompetent and cheapest land in old EU become the most populare place to go for an AOC.?
The answer is : Cheapest,

The background : We the Pilots let them.
Bjørn Kjos in Norwegian has longtime stated he wants it like the shipping industry.
Voila : Liberia.


CarbHeatIn 2nd Feb 2017 10:30

And yet Aer Lingus guys enjoy decent Ts&Cs... Why do you think that is?

Direct Bondi 2nd Feb 2017 11:12

Is it because Aer Lingus pilots are represented by a trade union DIRECTLY to the airline?


Norwegian’s LGW based pilots pay union dues to BALPA for representation to staffing agency, Orient Ship Management, who rents them to a Norwegian airline.

BluSdUp 2nd Feb 2017 11:21


Good news then , according your logic: Full represantation and the good old system to all that fly under a Irish AOC.
Reality check.
EIN was to be taken over by RYR but some court decided that would be leading to a RYR monopoly in Irland.

RYR keeps it as its pet for possible long haul competency and route sharing.
It has 47 aircraft, RYR has 370 NOR has 200 plus.
Lets compare it with Braathes SAFE in Norway in the old days.
When they almost went bankrupt SAS bought them and found out they operated 30% cheaper.
Expensive pilots does not equal expensive Company.
Inflated , overpaied and incompetent management does.
Bless Airlingus, but that is their own, You know. And the only ones on the Island that knows anything about flying an aircraft.

Avenger 2nd Feb 2017 12:02

Bondi, the conditions that AER Pilots enjoy are formed from Irish Law principles:

"Collective bargaining is governed not by legislation but by a series of nationally-negotiated pay agreements based upon a social partnership model. Government, representatives of the trade union movement, of employers' organisations and more recently also drawn from the non-governmental 'social pillar' (ie voluntary groups) come together to negotiate a national agreement which fixes wage increases and other payments generally."

Bearing in mind this was a State Owned airline that was floated, the hereditary rights etc remain under Irish and EU laws as Eire is part of the " eurozone"

Under the Constitution, the State guarantees the right of the citizens to form associations and unions. (art. 40.6.(iii))." therefore there is no " recognition" issues as in NAS. Secondly, Unions in Eire are affiliated .. Unfortunately these T+Cs were so good the massive debt meant that the Government had little choice but to sell the airline to IAG! Bit like Olympic Airlines.. jobs for the boys..

Its a good thing on the one hand, but leads to protectionism on the other, i.e if you're not Irish, the chances of a job at Lingus are so slim you could slide under a door!

SAS will reduce it's cost base, not wages..

repulo 2nd Feb 2017 13:07

Hey Denti, glad to see you got the massage that it was all about TUI and not AB!
Anyhow, back to topic. As long as there is no level playing field with harmonised labour law and company taxation this whole project open skies Europe will kill every descent airline and transfer the jobs to the lowest level..

recall_checked 2nd Feb 2017 17:04

And some people wonder why I think Brexit was a good thing....I was hoping the EU would die.

Although the UK will probably remain part of open skies.

RAT 5 3rd Feb 2017 08:25

The competent authority shall be the authority designated by the Member State in which the operator has its principal place of business

Slight drift; but what is the definition of "principal place of business?" It is established that RYR's largest base for flights etc. is STN, but it's HQ is DUB. So its largest source of income is in UK, but its administration centre is IRE.
Then you add in all the other overseas bases. Its business is speedily widely. I would have thought the registration of the a/c would have some input, but then again, I flew for an Italian airline with an Italian AOC but EI reg a/c. However, that was before EASA, even JAR.

Under the Constitution (IRE), the State guarantees the right of the citizens to form associations and unions. (art. 40.6.(iii))." therefore there is no " recognition issues. Secondly, Unions in Eire are affiliated."

If this is correct, as quoted by Bondi, how does RYR succeed in resisting a union in RYR. They claim not to prohibit a union, but to recognise it for negotiating purposes. Bondi suggests there are rights enshrined in the Irish constitution. I miss be missing something, or there are many 'blind eyes' in IRE.

172_driver 3rd Feb 2017 09:14

Slight drift; but what is the definition of "principal place of business?"
EASA-OPS goes on to define that:

‘principal place of business’ means the head office or registered office of the organisation within which the principal financial functions and operational control of the activities referred to in this Regulation are exercised

So I can only presume that 'new' SAS will have some administration set up in Ireland.

cefey 3rd Feb 2017 09:22

It´s sad. SAS is the last company I would expect it from.
On the other side, it´s entirely understandable. They must compete on equal term, in order to have a chance to beat other companies.

EU/EASA must make some changes. Only then we can hope for course reversal in TCs.

Direct Bondi 3rd Feb 2017 09:44

So I can only presume that 'new' SAS will have some administration set up in Ireland
Another broom cupboard exploited.

Will the SAS crews have Irish employment contracts like NAI? – allegedly:


“since NAI is based in Ireland, it is subject to Irish labor laws”

RAT 5 3rd Feb 2017 10:13

EU/EASA must make some changes. Only then we can hope for course reversal in TCs.

Why would the trough slurping EU bureaucrats do such a thing? The airlines would claim the price of tickets would have to rise and the peasants of the EU would revolt having to pay increased fair-trade prices for their tickets. Let slavery, in many industries, continue so that the peasants can eat cake instead of bread and vote for their grinning faced apparently benevolent MP's. :hmm:

Avenger 3rd Feb 2017 13:08

How Europe's three biggest budget airlines plan to take over the world

Iver 4th Feb 2017 02:39

Originally Posted by 172_driver (Post 9660870)
The press release mentions bases in London this year and Spain next.

Which London airport for an operational base?

INKJET 4th Feb 2017 08:58

Oh dear Bondi you don't give up do you!!

Remember pilots who fly for NAI don't work for NAI they are employed by OSM, must be hard for you, you know, always being on the wrong side of history, it is social taxes in Scandinavia that kill pilot jobs based there, Finnair will likely follow, the Finish Government will need to increase the tax take if it intends to fully roll out its trail of giving everyone a basic living wage for sitting at home on their computers all day, perhaps you should apply, after all you may have made some contributions to the Finish tax system before you were turfed out of Vannta

Direct Bondi 4th Feb 2017 10:31

Remember also;

Via his novel and complex staffing agency labor model, Kjos does not offer airline employment, he offers airline “unemployment”.

Dreams of a career in aviation are turned into nightmares of service industry insecurity.

SAS employs their pilots directly, all have labor rights and labor principles directly with SAS.

While on the subject of tax, I hear Norwegian’s pilots may soon be paying tax on their freebie jumpseat tickets out of LGW.

JaxofMarlow 4th Feb 2017 11:32

[it is social taxes in Scandinavia that kill pilot jobs based there][/QUOTE]

Not sure I understand this. Why more so pilots than doctors nurses or office workers ?

captplaystation 4th Feb 2017 20:55

In the same way as I detected a lack of French/UK origin below deck workers on cross-channel ferries over the last 3 decades, airline pax are not all blind. . . lack of PA's in the local lingo etc. . . pay for SAS , get flyygawdknowswhat airlines. Sad that aviation is going that way . . . anyone with some authority to stop it is either not interested, or is in someone else's pocket, for sure it is not merely ignorance of the situation.

172_driver 4th Feb 2017 21:09

Which London airport for an operational base?
No idea, they've got slots at LHR but if they can be used for something useful I don't know

WindSheer 4th Feb 2017 21:41

It's called culture change......,.

172_driver 4th Feb 2017 22:01

Some, like the consumers, think it's for the better. Pilots, who you see on here mostly, are the once adversely affected by said change.

Direct Bondi 6th Feb 2017 07:42

There are reasons Scandinavia airline CEO’s seek to cut labor costs.


“SAS boss got pay rise of two million”

Norwegian’s CEO avoids answering questions on his net worth and states; “A lot of pilots earn more than me” (time 4.39).


The race to the bottom continues. Fat cats and fat rats get fatter.

mask14 8th Mar 2017 00:14

Where they going to get their type rated pilots from?

Direct Bondi 17th Mar 2017 18:29

SAS confirms its entry in the race to the bottom by adopting the ‘airline unemployment’ model;

“SAS Ireland boss Michael Wångdahl holding discussions with a number of staffing companies” – Dagbladet 17/3 - Link:


Union members should demand their representatives act on current legislation which states;

“The entity controlling the working life and supplying the equipment to perform the job shall be deemed the employer” - as accepted by the law courts of Europe and detailed in this International Labor Office guide:


Alternatively, continue to pay union dues and fill union coffers for representation to staffing agencies, rather than direct representation to the airline with associated labor rights and labor principles.

breakdip 18th Mar 2017 15:04

Originally Posted by mask14 (Post 9699126)
Where they going to get their type rated pilots from?

SAS will wet lease the 320NEO's to SAS Ireland. Ireland based staff is ground staff only.

Source: SAS outlines new Irish unit plans due in mid-4Q17 - ch-aviation.com

HippoDK 18th Mar 2017 15:23

breakdip i think you have it the wrong way around...

SAS will wetlease from SAS Ireland

breakdip 19th Mar 2017 08:43

Originally Posted by HippoDK (Post 9710772)
SAS will wetlease from SAS Ireland

Herregud, you are completely right...

SAS Irish subsidiary to begin flights in November
SAS will own the Irish airline, which will be a separate entity to its parent but will carry its brand. It will fly the Spanish and British routes on a “wet lease” basis, that is, providing the aircraft and crew.

About 40 staff will be based here initially. The airline will begin hiring pilots and crew later in the year.
Do not know which words to choose: Scandalous or Smart?

Alpha Golf Mike 10th May 2017 19:24

Anobod knows what's going on now? Been very quiet in a long while.

172_driver 10th May 2017 20:51

Internally too, but I believe the aim is to have the London base up and running by the end of the year. Union negotiations are currently ongoing.

matt283 22nd May 2017 12:40

Which base in Spain is considered? Is it Malaga?

flyhigh788 14th Jun 2017 14:07

Anyone knows sth about the conditions?

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