Direct Bondi has hit the nail on the head, as the whole situation is a tad Iffy, both in contract and financial terms.

The Rishworth sales dept fan fails to understand that some wanabees borrow money against their parents house, so if things don't work out as regards upfront or type rating bonds, they might all finish up on the street.
Many of them are in enough financial trouble already, without giving away more of their family fortune!

We are getting nowhere here.

/ I merely pointed out there is no shady deal between rishworth and a bank owned by rishworth . This is incorrect and into the realms of conspiracy theory . I offer no opinion on the ethics or anything else of the deal.

/ wannabes and their parents will not be on the street due to securing loans on their houses. We don't take wannabes, you need to be an experienced Boeing pilot ( or Airbus ) to go on the 787.

/ I'm not trying to persuade people to join , I don't care either way. I only posted here to r redress some of the bull being spoken as I am party to the actual reality.

The actual reality is a circumvention and misrepresentation scheme.

The Norwegian Airline Group recruits, interviews, hires, determines the base, roster, days off, vacation, promotion opportunities, layoffs and may also terminate pilots and cabin crew. By EU law definition, Norwegian is the employer.

Pilots and cabin crew working for Norwegian in the UK are not working under the UK Employment Act 2008. As such, they have no claim whatsoever against Norwegian in any employment dispute. Nor do they have the right to union representation or collective agreement with Norwegian.

Pilots and cabin crew in the UK employed by an agency, are working under the Agency Workers Regulations 2010. Although Norwegian may have misrepresented itself as the "employer" on crew airport ID badges and US visa applications.

Since the March 31, 2008 effective date of the EU US Open-Skies Agreement, 57 EU carriers have applied and been granted US Permits. The average time between application and granting the requests was 55 days. After 15 months, the longest time of any application, the DOT is no closer to granting NAI its permit. Serious concerns remain regarding Norwegian's circumvention of employment rights and principles.

Several weeks ago Kjos boasted in the Norway press that he did not need the US Permit - link:
- Vi kan fly til krampa tar oss med de tillatelsene vi har - DN.no
* copy and paste to Google Translate

More recently, Kjos has written a begging letter to DOT Secretary Foxx pleading for the US Permit - link:
Kjos frir til Obama for å få trafikkrettigheter i USA - Aftenposten

In reply to the Kjos letter the Secretary of the European Transport Workers Union, Francos Ballastero, stated:

"In an attempt to pursue the policy stated in the employment agreement, the Spain based pilots have organized themselves under SEPLA, the Spanish pilots union, and have made repeated attempts to engage Norwegian or representatives of Norwegian, for the purposes of constructive talks. For the past six months these repeated attempts have been completely ignored by Norwegian. As a reply to these efforts made by the pilot representatives, Norwegian has stated it does not have any pilots in Spain, but an agency called OSM does"

Article 17 of the current US-EU Air Transport Agreement, Open-Skies, states: "The opportunites created by the Agreemnt are not intended to undermine the labor standards or the labor related rights and principles contained in the Parties respective laws"

Norwegian categorically does not meet the prerequisite requirement of Article 17. A US Permit cannot be granted.

Aren't all the NLH crew now UK based? and if so, they will be subject to UK agency employment laws , in this respect, I fail to see what the 737 Pilots based in Spain have to do with the NLH DOT application, Incidentally, the Spanish are no blueprint for labour relations given their record of airline strikes and ATC strikes.. which brings me to the next point, if they are so unhappy in Spain, why don't they strike as usual.. answers on a postcard!

Agency pilots and cabin crew have no labor rights nor labor principles with their real employer, Norwegian - para 2 above (e.g. union representation and collective agreement).
If the Spanish agency pilots were to strike against Norwegian they could be summarily terminated without recourse. In a "direct employment relationship" striking pilots cannot be terminated without due process (recall the 600 directly employed pilots on strike in March). In the UK the difference between the Employment Act and the Agency Workers Regulations - right to strike vs immediate dismissal.
Kjos does not mind if agency pilots join one or ten unions, he has no obligation to communicate or even acknowledge any agency union, as evidenced by SEPLA's failed attempts.
The Kjos labor scheme circumvents the prerequisites of Article 17. Additionally, Kjos has stated in his application to the US DoT that agency crew are offered the same degree of job protection, terms and conditions as crew hired directly by Norwegian - they are not.

Avenger- the right to strike is a Human right in all western democracies. Circumventing the right to strike is a privalage restricted to Authoritarian states. Europe is currently going through a transitional phase which allows loopholes to emerge for unscrupulous employers to exploit. Fortunately the U.S. government are preventing this exploitation from being a commercial advantage.

Polax, Bondi, I am not talking about the right to strike or instant dismissal for industrial action or anything remotely connected to that topic. My comments, in specific connection to the NLH thread are simply this: The vast majority of the crews seem happy with their lot, the LGW LH crews are not up in arms over pay and working conditions, that privilege seems to be reserved for observers that don't even work for the company, are vocal about never wanting to work for the company and seem to take the opinion that if they don't want to work there, no one else should either..The thread has been contaminated by reference to the Spanish operations and every other aspect of NAS working conditions, which has absolutely nothing to do with the original topic. The concept of obtaining a commercial advantage by effectively having " slave labour" is not supported by the positive attitude displayed by the workforce themselves, and to be honest, is starting to smell of sour grapes. The US DOT are past masters of putting fingers in everyone else's pies and perhaps should exercise some of the "freedoms" they seek so hard to protect..

The crux:

They and the U.S. airline-pilots union
accuse Norwegian of seeking to set up a low-wage operation with foreign crews that will create unfair competition. ( Nonsense, of course the crews are "foreign" all European airlines operate with a mix of crew, people have the basic human rights to live in their own country.)

The salaries and benefits of pilots in the Irish long-haul subsidiary are “substantially inferior” to those of its Norwegian-based pilots, ALPA claimed.( Really! not according to the published pay scales seen here and given the cost of living index UK vs Norway http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living...United+Kingdom)

A joint filing from American, Delta and United likewise argues
Norwegian’s application to operate as an Irish carrier is merely “a flag of convenience. to avoid Norway’s labor laws and lower labor costs … thus giving (Norwegian) a competitive advantage on transatlantic routes in direct competition with U.S. carriers.” What has Norways labour laws got to do with British based pilots?

Nice post Avenger but employing Pilots through agencies when they are clearly employed by one employer in a full time job is done unfairly and for a reason. The reason is to circumvent basic western human rights. Honestly it could not be more simple.

Even David Cameron, a Thatcherite conservative has spoken very vocally and clearly against this type of employment. Meeting DOT requirements is so easy.

Avenger:

The LGW 787 labor model and Spanish 737 labor model are identical, viz: the exclusive use of agency employed staff to circumvent labor rights and labor principles by the real employer, Norwegian.

It is entirely irrelevant if the vast majority of pilots are content (doubtful). The Kjos labor model does not comply with Article 17 - period. Both the EU and US negotiated and signed the Open-Skies Agreement.

The crux of the problem is that Kjos expects everyone to pander to him. The U.S. is having none of it.

In his June 1, 2015, letter to the DoT, Kjos states:

"It has been and will continue to be our firm policy to offer all pilots and cabin crew employed through agencies the opportunity to transfer their employment to a company in the Norwegian Group at the end of a transitional period"

The Kjos letter, Exhibit 1, can be viewed at the following link: Regulations.gov (ref: DOT-OST-2013-0204-0203, view NAI Motion, pdf attachment)

What plans are in place for the LGW 787 agency pilots and cabin crew to transfer their employment to a company in the Norwegian Group and when?

I just wonder how can the Gulf carrier operate to the US as those countries don't even contemplate basic human rights. Not defending NLH just trying to understand how is possible Emirates is not competing unfairly...

furbpilot. Same as every u.s. policy. How much oil do you have?

Don't know if that is it entirely . . . . Norway has some of that stuff too if I remember.

Discussion is somewhat off topic
 

It seems like some people here like to direct the discussion into other areas than terms and endearment. To me it is a little surprising that they put so much energy into Norwegian under this section of PPRuNe when they clearly are not interested in the job.

Anyways, long haul is recruiting a lot at the moment. A friend of mine passed a couple of weeks ago. They need 100 pilots for next year. Conditions are improving. A new airline (as the long haul part of Norwegian should be considered) doesn't give the best market conditions from day one. But since they started pay has increased for LGW based pilots, and will increase even more after three years of service. Days off will increase from November, and when this new company learn how to optimize the roster it will increase more.

But no, no, no (to some of you out there that will quote this post and attack it), the conditions are not the best. They are perhaps not good in most pilots' mind. But they are improving. In two years a lot has happened, and it will continue. Either you believe it will or you don't.

The crux of the matter is that by individuals accepting ever lower conditions at outfits such as NLH, *everyone* else eventually gets dragged down to the same unsustainable level. You say your conditions are improving, but as soon as they do some other starstruck wannabe comes along and undercuts you. Suddenly you've become expensive and looking for work.

Those of us who've been doing this a few decades know the price to be paid for long haul. Seeing your children grow up while you're watching reruns at 3am in some hotel half a world away, never being fully awake nor fully asleep. And we've fought a long fight for adequate compensation.

I'm not going to get into the other lcc issues; let the customers decide on those . But when you're threatening every other long haul colleagues income and few precious remaining days at home, it becomes a matter which certainly has its rightful place on these boards.

You're selling yourself way below what you're worth, and undermining everyone else in the process. Your conditions will not improve, everyone else's will deteriorate as you've just lowered the bar.

It's a battle we all should be fighting together as professional pilots. I'm at a loss how I can explain this any better and suspect you're ignoring the real issue.

quadspeed, IMHO your post is right on the money & NLH crew are guilty of what I (as an ex FR pilot ) was party to in the short haul world. . . . accepting less than my worth.

I don't have a solution, as sometimes at the time it is the best gig in town (or should I say the least onerous ) & certainly we all have bills to pay, & may not have the luxury of saying "no thanks" & taking our skills elsewhere.

What is indisputable however is that NLH has set the bar lower than ever for long-haul, of that point there can be no dissenting views worth listening to.

This thread is turning into a real soap opera... How about people NOT apply if you are not interested in the contract, schedule, etc.? Last time I checked applying to NLH was not compulsory...


There are other operators out there with better contracts - go apply if you meet their minimums and have contacts. Ryanair and Easy are hiring...

I think it is fair to say Iver that those being critical of NLH in the main have not applied and are well aware of what else is available. That does not mean their comments are not valid as when one bar gets lowered the tendency is for others to follow.

I totally agree with Quadspeed's comments and also feel much the same has already happened in the short haul market of Europe. Captplaystation has referred to the damage that FR and the likes have done as regards pilot's t&cs by pilots underselling themselves.

I was on the 787 on Tuesday from LGW to FLL. :) Lovely guys running the show, steered us round some chop, got us to Florida safely. Happy customer. :ok:

Just wanted to put in a positive note. My lad training in Jerez at the moment has his eye on a future with Norwegian too.

Mrs Bwsboy

100.5% right.

There has always been long haul pilots accepting jobs for less money than "Major Airline" LH pilots, ATA and Evergreen comes to mind among others.
Then again, Major LH pilots has also accepted huge pay cuts to stay employed,
Pan Am and TWA for example. :sad:

Its not just about the money. If money were the only issue Norwegian would have received a U.S. Foreign Air Carrier Permit months ago.

Although pilots flying for ATA, Evergreen, Pan Am and TWA all may have accepted lower pay, the fact remains they were directly employed by the respective airline with all associated direct employment labor rights and labor principles with the respective airline. As opposed to Norwegian's pilots, rented from a service provider/agency like cleaning staff, with no direct employment labor rights nor labor principles with Norwegian whatsoever.

To add insult to the injury of being a rented pilot, Kjos has declared in his letter to the DoT below, that his exclusive use of agency pilots is only for a "transitional period", after which pilots are offered to "transfer their employment" to a company in the Norwegian group.

Perhaps a LGW based, Norwegian 787 agency pilot, could provide details of what plans are in place to transfer their agency employment to direct employment with Norwegian ?


____________________________________________________________
In his June 1, 2015, letter to the DoT, Kjos states:

"It has been and will continue to be our firm policy to offer all pilots and cabin crew employed through agencies the opportunity to transfer their employment to a company in the Norwegian Group at the end of a transitional period"

The Kjos letter, Exhibit 1, can be viewed at the following link: Regulations.gov (ref: DOT-OST-2013-0204-0203, view NAI Motion, pdf attachment)

I find it hard to know whether to trust Kjos or not....

Would any Finnish Norwegian pilots care to comment as they were the litmus test of Kjos claim... Are Finnish Norwegian pilots employed by OSM? Did their contract improve significantly when subsequently employed by Norwegian Finland (if indeed they are employed by a local Norwegian franchise)?

That message needs to be repeated over and over. Nobody is doing themselves or anybody else any justice by accepting work with an outfit such as NLH. Quite rightfully guys outside of NLH need to make this clear.

Of course !
I should really go on the dole to protect your T&Cs, what was I thinking ?

Maybe I'll even move to Shenzhen ......

Rishworth still pushing the NLH jobs. This means that either
1) The current crop of candidates interviewed have fallen short of the mark
2) Those interviewed were so horrified that the T"s n C"s were no better than stipulated on Pprune, and ran off back to the desert.
3) They are just fishing.

Perhaps the pool of unemployed wannabes is drying up, and they have to deal with pilots who are able to make a choice. And that choice is ...

... and maybe there will be a lower number of available 'starstruck wannabes' in the future - Ts&Cs reducing making a career as a pilot less attractive, widening gap between supply and demand?

If that is the case then Ts&Cs may, in the long-run, improve!?

"If that is the case then Ts&Cs may, in the long-run, improve!?"


Yep, and I also believe in the tooth fairy & father Christmas. . . . . Oh well, we can live in hope. :rolleyes:


"Hope for the best, prepare for the worst" would be my advice to anyone starting a career in this industry.

It's just up to anyone of you.

Anyone considering a career at the pointy end should automatically be disqualified due to lack of judgement.

In the words of a recent article on automation;

"A senior executive at Airbus mentioned to me that in Britain and the United States the elites do not become airline pilots, whereas in France, as in less developed countries, they still do."

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2014/10/air-france-flight-447-crash

Unfortunately I can tell you there was quite a lot of candidate at the NLH interview happening in Oslo this last few days... They are running the sim 8 hours per day for the last 3 days...

Too bad they don't pay for the hotel in Oslo anymore for the screening and if their flights are full you have to take care of your travel expenses as well ....they are becoming another ultra low cost airline .
This are the results of a Norwegian LH Pilots Survey:
80% considers the current terms and conditions unsatisfactory.
72% considers Norwegian HR services unsatisfactory.
47% is looking for another job.
54% would not recommend Norwegian to friends.
61% considers Norwegian not a long term airline.
54% says they are unsure or not fully aware of their tax situation and applicable taxation liabilities.

... and 99%, when polled, said they wont be leaving for your sh1tty job in Asia or the desert :) :)

Kjos is a Lorenzo wanna-be.
Grow and sell cheap tickets at any cost.
He forgot his roots and his free flight training to become a military pilot without worrying about pay, benefits or job security: All taken care of by the Government, and my tax money. :sad:
Now he makes sure newbies has to pay for their own rating, then he kicks 'em back on the street but still demands payback for the training.
Lorenzo would be proud.:rolleyes:

If we are talking percentages..........

100% of Norwegian's LGW based 787 pilots are still employed with an agency rather than directly employed with Norwegian.

Does this fact make Kjos a 100% liar ?
___________________________________________________________
In his June 1, 2015, letter to the DoT, Kjos states:

"It has been and will continue to be our firm policy to offer all pilots and cabin crew employed through agencies the opportunity to transfer their employment to a company in the Norwegian Group at the end of a transitional period"

The Kjos letter, Exhibit 1, can be viewed at the following link: Regulations.gov (ref: DOT-OST-2013-0204-0203, view NAI Motion, pdf attachment)
___________________________________________________________

Kjos takes strike revenge by terminating a union delegate

Dagbladet Norway News reports that a union delegate active during the March strike has been terminated by Norwegian.
Both the NPU and PARAT are 100% behind the pilot and if necessary will take the matter to court.
A Norwegian manager stated they "respect unions and have a good relationship with unions since beginning in 2002".
During the strike Norwegian separated the Scandinavian division into three companies without any union consultation whatsoever. Norwegian continues to use agencies to supply its pilots and cabin crew, thereby preventing any union representation or collective agreement directly with Norwegian.
News Link: Norwegian har sparket hovedverneombudet under streiken - nyheter - Dagbladet.no
*copy and paste to Google Translate

DB, I see you were "deleted", glad to see you posted again. . . . Agendas Agendas, seems for pprune NAS has become the "new Ryanair" (or E****d? )

People should read/translate/weep after perusing the link at the bottom of your post . . . . . amazing how contacting the local CAA (after being ignored by your employer) to notify safety concerns should A - come to the attention of your employer, & B-result in your termination . . . . strange that, or maybe not in Norbabwe.

Has anyone got a reply from the online tests last May yet ?
When are the interview going to be ?

Ive not heard. Im Not rated and to be honest have lost all interest.
Anecdotal evidence indicates that most guys they want have been interviewed.
Bizarrely they are still constantly advertising. Sounds like Korean !

Apparently, Norwegian's communications manager isn't having much of a summer break:

"Norwegian's London base slaughtered in shock report from CAA"

says Dagbladet Norway news, August 20 - Link: Norwegians London-base slaktet i sjokkrapport fra Luftfartstilsynet - nyheter - Dagbladet.no

The report states the LGW base has been without any leadership and has only 30 square meters of office space for use by 158 staff.

Norwegian re-registered six of its 787's from Ireland to Norway to increase its US flights under Norway's established traffic rights agreement. However;

"Norwegian registered aircraft are considered Norwegian territory. Foreign crew (Thai/US) require resident work permit"

says lawyer for Norwegian Cockpit Association, reports Dagbladet Norway news, August 18 -Link: LO-forbund mener Norwegian flyr ulovlig - nyheter - Dagbladet.no

Any news of 787 agency pilots being offered the Kjos promise of direct employment with Norwegian ?

Bondi,
Can you not get a hobby or something ? Your constant NLH knocking is getting on my nerves.

Of course, any airline with an office, doesn't have room to accommodate all their pilots and cabin crew at once, because they are never there at once are they ?

What axe do you have to grind ? Or have you really nothing better to do ?