Can you trust your Company Training Captains ?
Complaining to the CAA about the conduct of an LPC is under Regulation 6. This is fully outlined in Doc 24 the CAA document on how to be a TRE. It is unfortunate that line pilots are not familiar with this document as it forensically details TRE conduct and procedures. This includes the statement to be relaxed and professional. Ironically first written by a fierce female flight ops inspector of legendary repute who conspicuously did not follow her own advice. I digress. This is clearly guidance not followed when barking about how the ex military pilots are there to help the hapless civilians ( as quoted in the case notes). I knew many fine trainers in VS, ex military or otherwise and they would not have behaved in this manner. In a similar vein to be failed on a wind shear event is unheard of in my experience (TRE appointment 1993). If the item is failed then it needs to be retested. The retest should come at the end of the test, it should clearly be stated as a failure and retraining should be offered prior to a retest. 2 fails in one item is a test failure. It does not appear to me that procedure was followed correctly nor communicated unambiguously to Captain Lawson. It would appear that there were clear grounds for a Reg 6 appeal. It would also seem that Virgin Atlantic’s training department has appointed some seriously rotten apples with skewed moral compass.
Would the Flt Ops inspector be WC, by any chance?
Regulation 6, CAP 1049 and Doc 24
Regulation 6, CAP 1049 and Doc 24
Thanks for the professional insight, Olster ...
Decisions made by the CAA into complaints about the conduct of a test or exam are posted on the CAA website under ORS 8 and remain posted for five years from the date of review, including for two years, identification of the parties. Looking at ORS 8 in March 2024 there are no such decisions posted, meaning there have been no complaints made to the CAA about the conduct of a simulator test since early 2019. The only decisions currently posted under ORS 8 are not relevant to this thread.
Captain Lawson's simulator rides that might have generated a complaint took place in 2016 - 17 so would no longer be visible. The Virgin Training Captain in question was obliged to inform the failed candidate of the review process afforded by Regulation 6, as described in CAP 1049, and as mandated in Doc 24, but perhaps wisely, chose not to do so.
I would surmise that, like many of us, Captain Lawson would have been unaware of this valuable review facility at the time of the extraordinarily prejudicial circumstances described in his successful ET Judgment. If he had been previously aware, or had been made aware by the Training Captain who 'failed' him, it would be extraordinary if he had not made a complaint.
The fact that, apparently, there have been no requests for review made to the UK CAA within the last five years begs several obvious questions.
...
Thanks for the professional insight, Olster ...
Decisions made by the CAA into complaints about the conduct of a test or exam are posted on the CAA website under ORS 8 and remain posted for five years from the date of review, including for two years, identification of the parties. Looking at ORS 8 in March 2024 there are no such decisions posted, meaning there have been no complaints made to the CAA about the conduct of a simulator test since early 2019. The only decisions currently posted under ORS 8 are not relevant to this thread.
Captain Lawson's simulator rides that might have generated a complaint took place in 2016 - 17 so would no longer be visible. The Virgin Training Captain in question was obliged to inform the failed candidate of the review process afforded by Regulation 6, as described in CAP 1049, and as mandated in Doc 24, but perhaps wisely, chose not to do so.
I would surmise that, like many of us, Captain Lawson would have been unaware of this valuable review facility at the time of the extraordinarily prejudicial circumstances described in his successful ET Judgment. If he had been previously aware, or had been made aware by the Training Captain who 'failed' him, it would be extraordinary if he had not made a complaint.
The fact that, apparently, there have been no requests for review made to the UK CAA within the last five years begs several obvious questions.
...
- Was anyone who failed a simulator test in the last few years, informed of the complaint procedure by the tester ?
- Did anyone who failed a simulator test consider if they might have grounds for complaint ?
- Has anyone tried to complain to the CAA about the conduct of a simulator test in the last five years - and if so, what was the outcome ?
- Anything else relevant ?
Only just noticed this thread where M'lud poses his question way back in December 2023. Subsequent posts shine light on the utterly sickening regimes that existed in many Training Departments, and still do so today.
The quiet Sunday morning read has put me right off my Sunday lunch at the Taverna.
Joining Civil Aviation as a Crew Rostering Assistant in 1965 I became familiar with a certain 'club act' going on. Rising quickly to Duty Officer, Movement Control with another carrier, new Ground Ops Manager created a post for his mate and when a merger caused redundancies, he and matey with one year's service survived, making the long servers hit the dole queue.
38 years heavy jet, airline transport piloting followed where I laughed off the Unions and club acts and wanted nothing to do with highly corrupt training departments. I was often asked to join. One, knowinging my resentment asked ;"Why not join us and change things from within -?". I knew it would be a battle I would lose.
Like other contributors, I too fell victim to stitch ups, contrived defeats and "surprise Standards Checks".
I often referred t o the "Training Department" of one airline I actually enjoyed as the "Testing Department".
To be fair, there are some super Trainers out there but the blatant old club act, bully boy network spoils all the really good work these excellent but people do.
I hope this recent airing of an old case shakes up the disgrace enshrowding "Training" departments (don't make me laugh) that give safe haven to a group of talentless , humourless, witless, unlikeable , protected individuals who enjoyed bully-boy powere for far too long.
I won't be holding my breath though and just spoiled me own lunch. I will try not to shout at Milthos and do a "surprise" beer pulling check on his skill-set.
Glad that the Captain, subject of this thread, won his day & I hope, happily enjoying a glorious career in less worrisome conditions of employment.
The quiet Sunday morning read has put me right off my Sunday lunch at the Taverna.
Joining Civil Aviation as a Crew Rostering Assistant in 1965 I became familiar with a certain 'club act' going on. Rising quickly to Duty Officer, Movement Control with another carrier, new Ground Ops Manager created a post for his mate and when a merger caused redundancies, he and matey with one year's service survived, making the long servers hit the dole queue.
38 years heavy jet, airline transport piloting followed where I laughed off the Unions and club acts and wanted nothing to do with highly corrupt training departments. I was often asked to join. One, knowinging my resentment asked ;"Why not join us and change things from within -?". I knew it would be a battle I would lose.
Like other contributors, I too fell victim to stitch ups, contrived defeats and "surprise Standards Checks".
I often referred t o the "Training Department" of one airline I actually enjoyed as the "Testing Department".
To be fair, there are some super Trainers out there but the blatant old club act, bully boy network spoils all the really good work these excellent but people do.
I hope this recent airing of an old case shakes up the disgrace enshrowding "Training" departments (don't make me laugh) that give safe haven to a group of talentless , humourless, witless, unlikeable , protected individuals who enjoyed bully-boy powere for far too long.
I won't be holding my breath though and just spoiled me own lunch. I will try not to shout at Milthos and do a "surprise" beer pulling check on his skill-set.
Glad that the Captain, subject of this thread, won his day & I hope, happily enjoying a glorious career in less worrisome conditions of employment.
Toratoratora, sorry, very late reply but the legendary CAA lady ops inspector was indeed WC as you guessed. This Captain Lawson story is a disgrace and shines a very poor light on my former employer. Shameful stuff.
Moderator
I have worked as a TRI/TRE at easyJet for many years and I’m coming to the end of my career. At no point have I ever been asked or told to deliberately fail someone. No one has ever intervened in any way to influence the result of a forthcoming or already-conducted test. I’m also not aware of a single such instance ever occurring in our company. I have to say, I am extremely wary of these type of accusations – whilst accepting there may be individual cases were this has occurred in certain companies.
I think it is also worth noting that there are occasions when first officers feel they have been in someway disadvantaged by someone who has taken a dislike to them. As a result they feel they have never fulfilled their potential to be a captain. I’m sure there are individual cases of injustice, but there are also a lot of cases when the first officer involved is simply not up to the job and the system has correctly acted to prevent someone occupying a position they lack the capability to hold. It is clearly very painful for the individual involved, but nonetheless the right decision has been arrived at.
I think it is also worth noting that there are occasions when first officers feel they have been in someway disadvantaged by someone who has taken a dislike to them. As a result they feel they have never fulfilled their potential to be a captain. I’m sure there are individual cases of injustice, but there are also a lot of cases when the first officer involved is simply not up to the job and the system has correctly acted to prevent someone occupying a position they lack the capability to hold. It is clearly very painful for the individual involved, but nonetheless the right decision has been arrived at.
I left VS some years ago but was involved in training @ TRE level. There were and probably still are some top notch trainers. As time went on and both the airline and outside got more complex with technology and societal issues I can quite believe that some rogue elements got to the top particularly from outside. There were as always some politics involved and some high quality trainers were not enthusiastic to join management. This led to external recruitment of some individuals into roles they were not suited to and with let’s say less than upright moral perspective. Shame really.
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I remember WC taking a real dislike to one of the Pilots
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WC, well there's name from the past.
She was around a lot at Cranfield in 1988-9 when I was at Trent Air Services and had a fearsome reputation. I was fortunate and avoided having the privilege.
Apparently when she went to check the flight progress of one of the students he had the audacity to ask her her weight to carry out the W&B - it didn't go down well with her!
She was around a lot at Cranfield in 1988-9 when I was at Trent Air Services and had a fearsome reputation. I was fortunate and avoided having the privilege.
Apparently when she went to check the flight progress of one of the students he had the audacity to ask her her weight to carry out the W&B - it didn't go down well with her!
It is a very great shame that the good people are muddied by the shameful but that appears to be the way in all walks of life and professions.
In one company I worked for, I asked a smiling assassin why he was like that and he replied, grinning, " I like people to be afraid of me".
Another time, sim coffee break, joined by other bods but Trainer overheard comments made about a so called 'troublemaker'. He told the other trainers present, "Give him to me; I'll f--k him". Charming, I thought, but stayed schtum as I was having an easy time with a top-class, Arab Trainer.
We. will never be able to avoid this situation where Training Departments are seen by many as an outlet for very odd psychological problems . How these types even got into the profession in the first place was beyond me until I woke up to the 'nudge, nudge, wink wink' brigade. Can't beat them but proud to have stayed clear.
In one company I worked for, I asked a smiling assassin why he was like that and he replied, grinning, " I like people to be afraid of me".
Another time, sim coffee break, joined by other bods but Trainer overheard comments made about a so called 'troublemaker'. He told the other trainers present, "Give him to me; I'll f--k him". Charming, I thought, but stayed schtum as I was having an easy time with a top-class, Arab Trainer.
We. will never be able to avoid this situation where Training Departments are seen by many as an outlet for very odd psychological problems . How these types even got into the profession in the first place was beyond me until I woke up to the 'nudge, nudge, wink wink' brigade. Can't beat them but proud to have stayed clear.
