Can you trust your Company Training Captains ?
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I have read all 60 pages of that report, and my reaction is wow! Just wow!
I am utterly shocked that trainers at Virgin Atlantic can operate in this way.
I have had a Virgin trainer conduct an LPC/OPC on myself via a third party and found him very fair, and informative, with some really useful training points. Which makes reading this judgement even more shocking.
A reality check for aspiring Virgin pilots I think.
I am utterly shocked that trainers at Virgin Atlantic can operate in this way.
I have had a Virgin trainer conduct an LPC/OPC on myself via a third party and found him very fair, and informative, with some really useful training points. Which makes reading this judgement even more shocking.
A reality check for aspiring Virgin pilots I think.
- There were many people involved in this chain of events - not only trainers.
- There are/were many excellent trainers at the airline.
- None of those individuals actually involved in the defining events were forwarded by the airline at the ET proceedings for cross examination, even though they could have done so, as noted by the Judge.
- BALPA did not ultimately support the claimant - but another union did.
- Officers of the "other" union were denied re-employment after their Covid redundancy. (Captain Lawson's case evntually came to court post Covid redundancies but prior to re-employment "interviews")
- BALPA officers now hold management/office positions at the airline.
Some points to bear in mind for context, and also to prevent many honourable trainers being tarred with the wrong brush in the court of public opinion :-
- There were many people involved in this chain of events - not only trainers.
- There are/were many excellent trainers at the airline.
- None of those individuals actually involved in the defining events were forwarded by the airline at the ET proceedings for cross examination, even though they could have done so, as noted by the Judge.
- BALPA did not ultimately support the claimant - but another union did.
- Officers of the "other" union were denied re-employment after their Covid redundancy. (Captain Lawson's case evntually came to court post Covid redundancies but prior to re-employment "interviews")
- BALPA officers now hold management/office positions at the airline.
2. Has the judgement had any consequences for the training department and/or management at VS?
3. I interpret the lack of forwarding the appropriate witnesses as an admission of at least partial guilt by the company (as did the tribunal) and also, to avoid further embarrassment as it might have brought forward even more unsanitary details. Has the regulator stayed entirely mumm about what went on during the LPC/OPCs in question? Has the claimant subsequently lodged any complaints to the regulator as would be in his right?
4. Is the demise of the other union a (partial) result of discriminatory behaviour by the company during Covid redundancies? If so, has that been challenged legally?
Compared to, say, the rail unions, and the television broadcasting union; BALPA does not seem to actually do very much to improve our working conditions.
Could not agree more. Balpa an utter joke and not fit for purpose. Too often hijacked by unscrupulous individuals to machete their way into airline management. Woke protocols embraced to virtue signal but genuine injustice unsupported.
Has any company or post holder been sanctioned ?
Someone asked if any company or managers had been sanctioned for improper or illegal conduct, as evidenced in Employment Tribunal Judgments.
Short answer - NO - Not Captain Lawson's, not Captain Osborne's - nor Captain Simkins' employer from 2015 as a result of 'Illegal rostering' - except publication of Vols 2 and 3 of his book is currently " ... Delayed until result of police investigation." viz - https://pullingwingsfrombutterflies.com/arr-bishto
From Captain Osborne's 3301841/2020 'Judgment with Reasons' dated 02 March 2022 (21 pages) and 'Remedy Judgment' (13 pages) dated 5th June 2023 - see https://www.gov.uk/employment-tribun...841-slash-2020
"It is the unanimous judgement of the Employment Tribunal (02 March 2022) that:
...
The Remedy Judgment dated 5th June 2023 awarded the claimant some £630,000. Before you all get excited, most of this was loss of earnings and pension over three years. He wasn't actually sacked, but he wasn't paid either. See Remedy Judgment (13 pages) dated 5th June 2023
In simple clapham language, it would seem from the text of the Judgments that:
...
It does not appear from public record that Osborne's employers were in any way bothered by the Judgment - no one lost their jobs or was demoted. Nor were the Information Commissioner and the CAA visibly interested.
And guess what ? ... Despite being a union rep, Osborne's union declined to support him. Sound familiar ?
LFH
Short answer - NO - Not Captain Lawson's, not Captain Osborne's - nor Captain Simkins' employer from 2015 as a result of 'Illegal rostering' - except publication of Vols 2 and 3 of his book is currently " ... Delayed until result of police investigation." viz - https://pullingwingsfrombutterflies.com/arr-bishto
From Captain Osborne's 3301841/2020 'Judgment with Reasons' dated 02 March 2022 (21 pages) and 'Remedy Judgment' (13 pages) dated 5th June 2023 - see https://www.gov.uk/employment-tribun...841-slash-2020
"It is the unanimous judgement of the Employment Tribunal (02 March 2022) that:
...
- The claimant was subject to an unauthorised deduction of wages, pursuant to s13 Employment Rights Acts 1996.
- The claimant was subject to detriment on grounds related to trade union activities in breach of s146 Trade Union & Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992
- The claimant was subject to detriment contrary to regulations 3 and 9 of the Employment Relations Act 1999 (Blacklists) Regulations 2010".
The Remedy Judgment dated 5th June 2023 awarded the claimant some £630,000. Before you all get excited, most of this was loss of earnings and pension over three years. He wasn't actually sacked, but he wasn't paid either. See Remedy Judgment (13 pages) dated 5th June 2023
In simple clapham language, it would seem from the text of the Judgments that:
...
- The company faked his medical record (when he was legally unfit to operate) to show he was fit, so they could put him and a number of other union reps on a fake flight that the company had no intention of operating, so they could all be deemed to be on strike and 'punished' accordingly.
- He was 'punished' because he was a union rep - in breach of the TULRA and ER Acts
- He was black-listed contrary to the Blacklists Regulations 2010.
It does not appear from public record that Osborne's employers were in any way bothered by the Judgment - no one lost their jobs or was demoted. Nor were the Information Commissioner and the CAA visibly interested.
And guess what ? ... Despite being a union rep, Osborne's union declined to support him. Sound familiar ?
LFH
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Like I said - nothing changes.
More union detriment cases are in the ET system currently. Balpa officers figure in complained of events, as well as the airlines. So do some prominent trainers. There is more to come.
More union detriment cases are in the ET system currently. Balpa officers figure in complained of events, as well as the airlines. So do some prominent trainers. There is more to come.
Nowt new..happened to George Childs who criticised management in the Lane inquiry after the staines disaster..following that we had a **** who we voted as union rep..sold us out on a pay deal then went straight into management..useless article went onto BA management along with his other BEA Funny handshake brigade..flew with him on one of my first trips after P2 only flight training..wouldn't let me disconnect the autopilot.. obviously couldn't cope.
Whole list including a mate who was sacked after a contratemps with a security guard..Glen Stewart..Peter Berkal? Not forgetting droop snoop flight manger who was only sacked because of a posse of co pilots threatened management..but no different to some things that happened in Switzerland where a local pilot to the company to court as he hadn't had legal minimum leave and won but even dispatch knew that he would be failed on his next conversion course.
Whole list including a mate who was sacked after a contratemps with a security guard..Glen Stewart..Peter Berkal? Not forgetting droop snoop flight manger who was only sacked because of a posse of co pilots threatened management..but no different to some things that happened in Switzerland where a local pilot to the company to court as he hadn't had legal minimum leave and won but even dispatch knew that he would be failed on his next conversion course.
But olster, it is not so much BALPA reps macheteing their way in, it is more likely to be airlines neutralising their Company Councils. Free family long-haul tickets. bespoke rosters, time off, preferred destinations. And Commands, management positions, etc., etc; if you could "help" us explain our "vision" to the pilots.......All that went on, I imagine.
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Can you trust your Company Training Captains ?
The omission of telling Captain Lawson of his right to appeal to the CAA is another serious shortcoming of the examiner (and training management). Yes, any appeal should be lodged with the CAA within 14 days but they have never used this as a reason not to hear an appeal. They think it would not be fair as it is entirely feasible that a candidate who has been treated in such a way as Captain Lawson would be entirely focussed on all the events surrounding the LPC/OPCs and having not been informed of his right to appeal the conduct of the sim in the first place.
It’s important to note that the CAA hate Reg 6 (CAA appeal of the sim conduct) hearings take up a phenomenal amount of time and manpower and the CAA will try and avoid them if they possibly can. However, appeal to the relevant company flight ops inspector and tell them there is no option but to raise a Reg 6. If they says it’s too late I would argue the above points and say you’ll file one anyway.
It’s important to note that the CAA hate Reg 6 (CAA appeal of the sim conduct) hearings take up a phenomenal amount of time and manpower and the CAA will try and avoid them if they possibly can. However, appeal to the relevant company flight ops inspector and tell them there is no option but to raise a Reg 6. If they says it’s too late I would argue the above points and say you’ll file one anyway.
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The collusion among the TREs implicated and the Virgin management, including anyone in the training department who read Captain Lawson's reports without speaking up, particularly the Standards Captain—who would have been the first to read these disturbing simulator reports—along with BALPA officials, is evident. The CAA was aware of the situation but has chosen to turn a blind eye.
With this evidence now available to all, it is imperative for the CAA to take prompt action to preserve its reputation, especially as this story gains traction.
With this evidence now available to all, it is imperative for the CAA to take prompt action to preserve its reputation, especially as this story gains traction.
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The collusion among the TREs implicated and the Virgin management, including anyone in the training department who read Captain Lawson's reports without speaking up, particularly the Standards Captain—who would have been the first to read these disturbing simulator reports—along with BALPA officials, is evident. The CAA was aware of the situation but has chosen to turn a blind eye.
With this evidence now available to all, it is imperative for the CAA to take prompt action to preserve its reputation, especially as this story gains traction.
With this evidence now available to all, it is imperative for the CAA to take prompt action to preserve its reputation, especially as this story gains traction.
Perhaps they will be more inclined to take a look when the next trainer appears in court this February?
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The place to elaborate is in front of the High Court Judge, not here.
Suffice to say that the principles of our open justice system mean that hearings like this one are open to the public (and hence also interested parties from the media), and also that court judgements/orders, like the one won by Captain Lawson, are also matters of public record.
Anyone can attend an open hearing to observe - even ones in the High Court.
Suffice to say that the principles of our open justice system mean that hearings like this one are open to the public (and hence also interested parties from the media), and also that court judgements/orders, like the one won by Captain Lawson, are also matters of public record.
Anyone can attend an open hearing to observe - even ones in the High Court.
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....the Monarch management cockroach involved in the Simkins case also popped up in the Osborne case at the CAA. He's in the whistleblowing department. He refused to investigate the admitted negative safety culture at BA (BA admitted in closing statements in open court that no BA manager will ever be the subject of disciplinary investigation --> i.e. no safety culture, no grievance process = pilots being bullied without redress & potentially still flying in such circumstances). The CAA have been forced to properly investigate by the government ombudsman but the whole thing has been swept under the carpet again with no level 1 or level 2 findings i.e. no substantive action.... that's back with the ombudsman now....
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....the Monarch management cockroach involved in the Simkins case also popped up in the Osborne case at the CAA. He's in the whistleblowing department. He refused to investigate the admitted negative safety culture at BA (BA admitted in closing statements in open court that no BA manager will ever be the subject of disciplinary investigation --> i.e. no safety culture, no grievance process = pilots being bullied without redress & potentially still flying in such circumstances). The CAA have been forced to properly investigate by the government ombudsman but the whole thing has been swept under the carpet again with no level 1 or level 2 findings i.e. no substantive action.... that's back with the ombudsman now....
His fine colleagues are failing SAS ireland pilots with years of experience if they dont keep their hands on the thrust levers below 20000 ft or for any other of their pointless made up reasons.
They **** themselves during winter ops and have somehow been given the keys to this once scandinavian airline.
Some company culture coming out of that place!
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The ET report makes for shocking and rather depressing reading. Whilst there are always two sides to a story, I am still struggling to understand why the VS management undertook their campaign against Lawson.
Fear of the HKG flight story hitting the papers? Seems to me that it would have been far easier to a) quash the unfounded rumours within the company and vindicate the actions of Lawson on that flight, and b) just move on. Instead, they embarked on a long-winded journey to oust him that took them a lot of time and effort, and which is now readily available in the public domain to read all about.
Fear of the HKG flight story hitting the papers? Seems to me that it would have been far easier to a) quash the unfounded rumours within the company and vindicate the actions of Lawson on that flight, and b) just move on. Instead, they embarked on a long-winded journey to oust him that took them a lot of time and effort, and which is now readily available in the public domain to read all about.
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