British Airways Direct Entry Pilot
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 183
Likes: 41
From: UK
Hi All,
I am just wondering how long it would take to be a Captain for a newly hired experienced F/O (with more than 5000 hours of Airbus experience and currently flying as a Captain with relatively fewer PIC hours) at BA? Does the experience matter or is it all about seniority? One of my colleagues was Captain for my airline and after he was hired by United in the U.S., he was able to be upgraded to Captain again after 18-20 months. Would this be the case for the BA? Thanks in advance.
I am just wondering how long it would take to be a Captain for a newly hired experienced F/O (with more than 5000 hours of Airbus experience and currently flying as a Captain with relatively fewer PIC hours) at BA? Does the experience matter or is it all about seniority? One of my colleagues was Captain for my airline and after he was hired by United in the U.S., he was able to be upgraded to Captain again after 18-20 months. Would this be the case for the BA? Thanks in advance.
the opportunity to undergo a command course is strict seniority (presuming you meet the experience and license requirements - which a new FO will do by the time they get 5 years in).
Your previous command experience, while valuable, is not a factor in determining when you would get a command at ba.
Last edited by White Van Driver; 3rd July 2023 at 15:53. Reason: Turns out i was wrong
Joined: Apr 2010
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 399
Likes: 17
From: Utopia
I’d applied for BA EF DEC NTR and was advised by the recruitment manager that should I wish to switch my application to Mainline NTR DEFO, I would be eligible to upgrade after 1 year. Not sure if being eligible is the same as reaching the seniority to upgrade? In any case it’s academic now where I’m concerned.
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
From: Above
I'm not sure where Percula got that info from but it doesn't match mine. I joined in 2018, and would have just had seniority for an A320 command later this year. So that's around 5 years.
the opportunity to undergo a command course is strict seniority (presuming you meet the experience and license requirements - which a new FO will do by the time they get 5 years in).
Your previous command experience, while valuable, is not a factor in determining when you would get a command at ba.
the opportunity to undergo a command course is strict seniority (presuming you meet the experience and license requirements - which a new FO will do by the time they get 5 years in).
Your previous command experience, while valuable, is not a factor in determining when you would get a command at ba.
It went to the bottom of the seniority list. I joined last summer and it went well below me (I didn’t bid for it).
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 140
Likes: 1
From: AUS
for those who are waiting 5 years I think it is because they do not have the total hours requirement.
As of this week if you have 3500+ on CS-25 you will be eligible for command on the 366th day. Recruitment days are confirming what Percula states along with the current bid
As of this week if you have 3500+ on CS-25 you will be eligible for command on the 366th day. Recruitment days are confirming what Percula states along with the current bid
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 898
Likes: 73
From: UK
The removal of 31 (I think it was) 747s from the long haul flying programme during covid was a big step change in long haul flying, which will now be being recovered as quickly as BA can get their hands on new long haul aircraft. Many A320 captains are therefore obtaining moves to long haul, and the seats they are vacating need filling - resulting in the current very junior A320 commands. At the same time, the end of 2023 also sees the end of the NAPS P2 to P1 transition capability, and so larger than normal numbers of long haul SFOs have bitten the bullet and taken short haul commands so they do not miss out on the pension uplift. I suspect far fewer will do so in 2024, and so I predict the large numbers of P32L to C32L conversions to continue into 2024. That being said, it is difficult to know how many current A320 FOs are kicking themselves for not bidding for commands in 2023, and will not repeat the mistake in 2024.
Predicting seat change seniority is complicated, and just one year to a Heathrow command is very much an extreme covid induced abnormality at the moment, which should not be relied upon. How long it will last is anyone’s guess.
Predicting seat change seniority is complicated, and just one year to a Heathrow command is very much an extreme covid induced abnormality at the moment, which should not be relied upon. How long it will last is anyone’s guess.
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 123
Likes: 9
From: UK
Surely of greater or at least equal significance is the spectre of being at the bottom of the C32L list and watching your life get turned upside down by JSS. I believe several Airbus skippers have demoted themselves to RHS long haul this year for that very reason.
Imagine there are several probably kicking themselves for actually bidding for it.
Imagine there are several probably kicking themselves for actually bidding for it.
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 124
Likes: 8
From: london
Far more seem to prioritise seat seniority and quality of life. Bottom of the list LHS just doesn’t seem worth money
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 123
Likes: 9
From: UK
I gather BALPA are attempting to tweak JSS to make life marginally more palatable at the bottom (mainly by facilitating a couple of weekend days a month). If they succeed then you might see C32L go more senior again. If not then it wouldn’t surprise me if we eventually saw DEC airbus at Heathrow.
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 140
Likes: 1
From: AUS
I gather BALPA are attempting to tweak JSS to make life marginally more palatable at the bottom (mainly by facilitating a couple of weekend days a month). If they succeed then you might see C32L go more senior again. If not then it wouldn’t surprise me if we eventually saw DEC airbus at Heathrow.
They’re already doing DEC 320 at LGW aren’t they? Probably just shift them across if times get tough and keep recruiting at LGW.
Joined: Sep 2022
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 328
Likes: 183
From: Perpetually circling OCK for some reason
junior C32L demoting themselves to RHS LH, senior C32L not bidding LH, P32L not bidding for RHS LH so as to maintain their high seniority on the status. But you cant blame them - why would a senior P32L actively choose to move to a fleet where they're going to be 98% on the list for the next 5 years, doing 5 or 6 2-crew LH trips per month, with no weekends off?
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 183
Likes: 41
From: UK
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 898
Likes: 73
From: UK
For the reasons several of you mention, and more, there will be plenty of people will have actively chosen to stay in the right hand seat. I certainly cannot dispute that as I was one of them for many years on long haul. But I still believe there will be plenty of junior FOs who didn’t bid for it this year, but will next year. Junior FO or junior Captain? Might as well be a junior Captain? Plus with C32L having gone right to the bottom of the list this year, an FO with just a couple of years of seniority will have people below them when they change seats. When their freeze is up, and they’ve had enough, they can choose to demote themselves to right hand seat long haul - precisely the career path being chosen by some junior C32Ls this year.
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 336
Likes: 3
From: somewhere in the middle
C32L being so junior is a Bug, not a feature. That BA are spinning it to prospective new joiners as a bonus is them making the best of a bad hand IMHO.
It's (comparatively) poorly paid, and as others have said the lifestyle below about 60% relative seniority is for the most part atrocious. You can make it work, but is it worth the hassle if you're close to a command at a regional base for J2, easy, whoever?
I've heard they might be re running the (internal) numbers for the boeing fleets, to try and squeeze a few more P32 -> P77/P78, but the problem they have is back filling the P32 numbers, as apparently they havent had quite as successful recruitment campaign as they'd hoped. All just rumour, i must add.
It's (comparatively) poorly paid, and as others have said the lifestyle below about 60% relative seniority is for the most part atrocious. You can make it work, but is it worth the hassle if you're close to a command at a regional base for J2, easy, whoever?
I've heard they might be re running the (internal) numbers for the boeing fleets, to try and squeeze a few more P32 -> P77/P78, but the problem they have is back filling the P32 numbers, as apparently they havent had quite as successful recruitment campaign as they'd hoped. All just rumour, i must add.
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 140
Likes: 1
From: AUS
I've heard they might be re running the (internal) numbers for the boeing fleets, to try and squeeze a few more P32 -> P77/P78, but the problem they have is back filling the P32 numbers, as apparently they havent had quite as successful recruitment campaign as they'd hoped. All just rumour, i must add.
There were 10 who attended my assessment day and only 4 of us were "suitable" to BA - ie UK citizens, UK Licence holders, current and with the hours required. The rest were a mix of non-UK resident or licence holders along with folk who hadn't flown since 2020. One or two who attended just for the experience but had already started elsewhere and bonded.
Very slim pickings out there to find the right person for the right job who now has to have the correct passport & licence pus XX amount of experience. One bloke even asked the BA recruitment skipper if BA will be sponsoring Visas
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 250
Likes: 14
From: UK
C32L being so junior is a Bug, not a feature. That BA are spinning it to prospective new joiners as a bonus is them making the best of a bad hand IMHO.
It's (comparatively) poorly paid, and as others have said the lifestyle below about 60% relative seniority is for the most part atrocious. You can make it work, but is it worth the hassle if you're close to a command at a regional base for J2, easy, whoever?
I've heard they might be re running the (internal) numbers for the boeing fleets, to try and squeeze a few more P32 -> P77/P78, but the problem they have is back filling the P32 numbers, as apparently they havent had quite as successful recruitment campaign as they'd hoped. All just rumour, i must add.
It's (comparatively) poorly paid, and as others have said the lifestyle below about 60% relative seniority is for the most part atrocious. You can make it work, but is it worth the hassle if you're close to a command at a regional base for J2, easy, whoever?
I've heard they might be re running the (internal) numbers for the boeing fleets, to try and squeeze a few more P32 -> P77/P78, but the problem they have is back filling the P32 numbers, as apparently they havent had quite as successful recruitment campaign as they'd hoped. All just rumour, i must add.
Timing probably on my side joining wise as there seems to be loads still piling in so moving up the SH FO list quickly.
I heard recently they dropped the if you failed you have to wait 12 months to reapply to 6 months and you can reapply!! Not sure how true that is but if it is they must be really struggling.
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
From: Istanbul
There were 10 who attended my assessment day and only 4 of us were "suitable" to BA - ie UK citizens, UK Licence holders, current and with the hours required. The rest were a mix of non-UK resident or licence holders along with folk who hadn't flown since 2020. One or two who attended just for the experience but had already started elsewhere and bonded.
Very slim pickings out there to find the right person for the right job who now has to have the correct passport & licence pus XX amount of experience. One bloke even asked the BA recruitment skipper if BA will be sponsoring Visas
Very slim pickings out there to find the right person for the right job who now has to have the correct passport & licence pus XX amount of experience. One bloke even asked the BA recruitment skipper if BA will be sponsoring Visas
Joined: Feb 2013
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 154
Likes: 7
From: London
I'd be interested to know how easy it would be in practice for BA to sponsor employment visas for pilots. The going rate requirements for skilled workers would probably render low hours pilots/cadets ineligible for a visa under current rules. It might be easier for experienced applicants, but then, are there really hoards of suitably experienced EU pilots just desperate to come and work in the UK at the moment, with all the hassle that goes with it?
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 140
Likes: 1
From: AUS
I'd be interested to know how easy it would be in practice for BA to sponsor employment visas for pilots. The going rate requirements for skilled workers would probably render low hours pilots/cadets ineligible for a visa under current rules. It might be easier for experienced applicants, but then, are there really hoards of suitably experienced EU pilots just desperate to come and work in the UK at the moment, with all the hassle that goes with it?
BA or other airlines would have to prove they’ve exhausted all options within the U.K. before the visa process even begins. More likely to see sponsored schemes going on now similar to TUI MPL and having a continuous supply coming in young.
it certainly limits the ability for growth though, as Virgin are also finding out with their crewing issues.