Pondering leaving BA

[Jack the rabbit]

Originally Posted by 1201alarm

Is your salary at BA reasonably higher than at possible other options? And if yes, could you invest that salary in part-time? And if part-time and more time away from work, would that change the equation for you?

A great suggestion as yourself and a couple of other people suggested.. I actually did take PT at beginning of covid as found FT pre covid pretty dire (5/6 trips a month). Added issue is now with the pay cuts and being placed into SH costs a fortune commuting (I live a good few hours away) and eats a large fraction of extra time off PT generated. PT def was on my list to mitigate it all at least to buy some time and head space. I’ve developed a keen interest and have taken up something outside of flying I would love to do on the side.

[Vokes55]

Originally Posted by Whitemonk Returns

As for this guys place on the seniority list, plenty of pilots at TCX, Flybe and now Tui UK would trade their number for a spot in a well run airline

I was giving the guy my opinion, but it wouldn’t be Pprune if there wasn’t a defensive Jet2 employee ready to jump in and make it a thread about how wonderful Jet2 is. I don’t know a single personal acquaintance in BA, Virgin or TUI who would rather be in Jet2 right now.

[Jack the rabbit]

Originally Posted by Capewell

It's a tough call, I have my gripes like everyone else but can put up with the BS as being based at Heathrow on whatever fleet suits my family circumstances and I live close by. Saying that I jacked in two previous careers to get here, both seen as a safe(ish) option with pension etc at the end so I know where you're coming from.

If I was single and didnt have a family I'd have a different perspective.

Try going part time and do something else on the side?

Edited to add: in no way should you feel guilty about considering leaving. It's just a job, if its not working looking for other options is exactly what you should be doing.

That so true, one of the good things about the last 2 years is I discovered things away from flying I really am into and I really do want to explore more. Cheers appreciate it.

[Vokes55]

Originally Posted by Jack the rabbit

A great suggestion as yourself and a couple of other people suggested.. I actually did take PT at beginning of covid as found FT pre covid pretty dire (5/6 trips a month). Added issue is now with the pay cuts and being placed into SH costs a fortune commuting (I live a good few hours away) and eats a large fraction of extra time off PT generated. PT def was on my list to mitigate it all at least to buy some time and head space. I’ve developed a keen interest and have taken up something outside of flying I would love to do on the side.

I went part time fairly early in my career and never looked back, for me it’s the difference between enjoying and not enjoying the job. Knowing you have that fixed firebreak coming up makes the early starts/late finishes/jetlag bearable, and I usually find at the end of my part time periods that I’m looking forward to going back to work. The pay cut will almost certainly fall entirely within the 40% tax bracket, so your take home will go down less than you think, and you will still be on a relatively good salary. Your body will thank you for it too.

[Lazydogg]

Originally Posted by Whitemonk Returns

I've never worked for BA but this is such a bad take I had to interject. If we hit the mother of all recessions in a year or two, given the level of debt and poor management at all levels of BA and how badly they treated everyone during Covid, I would wager there isn't a pilot in the country who would pick BA over Jet2 right now.

As for this guys place on the seniority list, plenty of pilots at TCX, Flybe and now Tui UK would trade their number for a spot in a well run airline

If you wouldnt wager any pilot choosing BA over Jet2 then you are as delusional as I thought. I know plenty of guys that joined Jet2 and absolutely hate it- particularly in the summer. But their locked in to a northern base for family reasons. They can keep the variable rosters the RDOs, the endless name tags, the “Deputy Base Captains” (WTF is that) , the endless sandbagging/assessing in the sim at LBA. No thanks.

[Alloy]

Many years ago my opportunity to be join BA slipped away due to external factors beyond my control. I ended up in a decent leisure carrier that was unfortunately run into the ground and had a checkered flying career since financially but actually look back on it and can not complain because despite the much better financial stability I would have had in BA, I've had a far more interesting career and life experiences than BA would allow. On saying this, I would not move from BA with some seniority to work for Jet2 or the likes, rather I would only make a radical move if you decide to jump or stick with what you have and make it work as best you can.

[Lazydogg]

Originally Posted by Vokes55

I was giving the guy my opinion, but it wouldn’t be Pprune if there wasn’t a defensive Jet2 employee ready to jump in and make it a thread about how wonderful Jet2 is. I don’t know a single personal acquaintance in BA, Virgin or TUI who would rather be in Jet2 right now.

Exactly. These guys simply cannot resist shouting about how brilliant they are - be it on Linkedin, PPRUNE, Internal memos and even my local. There is literally no end to it. Its pathetic and quite frankly boring.
Could the Jet2 guys possibly start their own thread in order to feel all “warm and fuzzy” so that the original poster can get some sensible input on whether to leave BA or not?

[Alrosa]

Originally Posted by Mister Geezer

I don't want to be seen to be preaching from the pulpit but I have had similar thoughts (non BA but fly for a legacy carrier) but disconnecting from work when the parking brake is set is paramount. Whilst feeling fulfilled at work certainly helps, it is not the key to overall fulfillment and populating your spare time with meaningful tasks that make you happy, can go a long way to offsetting any grumbles at work. As pilots, we still love flying but it is very easy to let workplace politics affect our enjoyment. If you can afford to go part-time then grab it with both hands.

I don’t want to preach or tell you what to do either…but I really liked this post. I can identify with it myself.

[olster]

I don’t know anyone in Jet2 who thinks that they are ‘better’ than anyone else. Personally just trying to gently suggest an option to the thread starter; advice he can take or leave as he wishes. I wish him luck however as I have also been in big airlines and not terribly happy. No one needs to be ‘ defensive’ about J2 . I like it and I am sorry some posters disapprove with strange and vituperative enthusiasm. Gotta love pprune and the keyboard warriors that wouldn’t say the same to your face. In the same vein if the existence of deputy base managers, name tags and anecdotal tales of woe from the line cause anxiety then the airline business is obviously too stressful. The northern and Scottish bases also suit some and are a realistic alternative to commuting to LHR. I will make no further comment on this thread as I can’t be @rsed with childish squabbling.

[flypaddy]

I certainly don’t think that you should feel guilty if you choose to leave.

I wonder whether loneliness plays a part in your unhappiness? I have never worked for BA but as an outsider looking in, my friends who work there give me the impression it can sometimes be a solitary place to work. Being away for large periods of your life with different groups of people is not for everyone and it’s important that you feel you have people to connect and enjoy yourself with. For historical reasons I believe that the BA cabin crew might not always want to spend time with the pilots and this must be difficult.

I’m fortunate to work for an airline where the crew relationships are generally very cohesive, but I very occasionally come across a group which doesn’t want to socialise with me or each other and this can be isolating.

The best advice I can offer is to look at your pilot friends who are happiest. What are they doing differently? Who do they work for? What are they prioritising in their careers?

I hope this helps and I wish you all the best.

[1201alarm]

Originally Posted by Jack the rabbit

A great suggestion as yourself and a couple of other people suggested.. I actually did take PT at beginning of covid as found FT pre covid pretty dire (5/6 trips a month). Added issue is now with the pay cuts and being placed into SH costs a fortune commuting (I live a good few hours away) and eats a large fraction of extra time off PT generated. PT def was on my list to mitigate it all at least to buy some time and head space. I’ve developed a keen interest and have taken up something outside of flying I would love to do on the side.

I think it is a good point what another contributor was mentioning. Part time in the highest tax bracket does not lower your NET salary as much as you reduce your work percentage.

Part time also saves on commuting, or does BA have a lot of day trips on SH? When would you be able to go back longhaul?

Is there anything you could do in your free time that you enjoy, can be done around or even from home or while commuting (remote work), and pays money? And are you commuting from abroad (you mention a good few hours of commute) so double taxation could work in your favor if having a second income in another country?

Anyways, all the best.

[Twiglet1]

Originally Posted by Lazydogg

If you wouldnt wager any pilot choosing BA over Jet2 then you are as delusional as I thought. I know plenty of guys that joined Jet2 and absolutely hate it- particularly in the summer. But their locked in to a northern base for family reasons. They can keep the variable rosters the RDOs, the endless name tags, the “Deputy Base Captains” (WTF is that) , the endless sandbagging/assessing in the sim at LBA. No thanks.

The thread starts as a Pilot unhappy at BA and ends as a Jet 2 slag off...........

[Twiglet1]

Originally Posted by Whitemonk Returns

I've never worked for BA but this is such a bad take I had to interject. If we hit the mother of all recessions in a year or two, given the level of debt and poor management at all levels of BA and how badly they treated everyone during Covid, I would wager there isn't a pilot in the country who would pick BA over Jet2 right now.

As for this guys place on the seniority list, plenty of pilots at TCX, Flybe and now Tui UK would trade their number for a spot in a well run airline

Noting that TUI UK are having a hard time currently, If they were not a well run airline they would have gone bust by now.
I guess a few remember Britannia, Thompson before TUI. Can't be that bad surely>>>??

[beamer]

Originally Posted by Twiglet1

Noting that TUI UK are having a hard time currently, If they were not a well run airline they would have gone bust by now.
I guess a few remember Britannia, Thompson before TUI. Can't be that bad surely>>>??

Thomson were a right mess when they ‘merged’ with FIrst Choice who had themselves just been jilted at the last moment in a different coming together.

[Vokes55]

What have TUI got to do with somebody thinking about leaving BA?

[AIMINGHIGH123]

Originally Posted by Whitemonk Returns

Well to be fair I actually do get where the Jet2 bashing comes from but it is a bit weird how quick people on here go mental about any pro Jet2 posts... However, back on thread, if you are going to leave BA and remain a pilot living in the UK you only really have maybe 5 options that I can think of and I'll give you my take, assuming you are an FO:

Virgin - long haul obviously attracts, London base makes the swap easier from BA but from what I have heard I believe they are cutting all of the good stuff, bullets etc and not what it once was, second hand info though. Swapping one seniority list for another.

TUI - same as Virgin with more base options. Very precarious financial situation and would take a brave man to swap BA for TUI right now. Salaries are probably equivalent, a friend has earned close to 100k as an FO doing day offs etc. Seniority list again though and that stupid 7k a year for the TR if you don't have the rating has put most people off, part time contract aswell.

Easyjet: Good salaries for Captain although I don't know the exact figures. European bases, quicker command, if you are already Airbus this is going to be a quick transfer. High workload, don't know what you fly at BA but if I wanted to fly 800 hrs a year i would just go to the desert

Jet2: Growing company. Not top level salaries but 85k+ for an SFO and 130k+ for a Captain is competitive. Probably the lightest workload of the lot if you can survive the random roster. Like night flying it won't suit everyone. Good choice of bases. Summers are busy busy and fatiguing, normally you have the winter to recover but with the growth of the business that may not last forever. Long haul is inevitable in my opinion if that's what you want but TUI or Virgin will. Offer this quicker. Brexit seems to have killed the European bases for now unfortunately.

DHL: safe. Cargo is literally flying and will most likely continue to grow. Night flying is tough, FO salary isn't great. Relatively long time to command but I think its worth it when you get there.

Whitemonk obviously you are favouring J2 as it’s your place.

Im at none of these know enough in each to get a picture bar DHL.

From Jet2 Salaries you quote are the very top end. I was told at recruitment that SFO pay wouldn’t be until at least 6 months post final line check and it wasn’t quite that figure. Summer is what 6 on 2 off? Savage man!! Even with winter off that is bloody hard.

Virgin on paper and what people have said is amazing but the hint of a wobble and they make redundancies. I know a guy who has been made redundant twice with them so be aware of that.

OP I think you should go part time and ride it out. Enjoy time off or if you want set yourself up to leave if that’s what you want. Maybe you have a business you want to start.
Can’t predict the future with any airline but BA is not the worst place. Not the best to start with but 10 years in I would put it at the top of the pile for UK airlines to work for.
I thrashed out with my mate who went from J2 to BA. He was close to command at J2 but said he has never been happier at BA and much less tired. More options, pensions is amazing and travel perks are great.
Grass isn’t always greener.

[SunSmith]

I agree that the grass is unlikely to be greener elsewhere BUT I hear what the OP is saying – I too (definitely NOT trolling either) am at a loss of what to do. It is certainly not a pleasant place to work at the moment. The blatant dishonesty from the management is staggering. In short, they are liars with no morality. The on-going “Delta” saga is simply and clearly punishment for daring to stand up for our rights during the strikes. They have made it personal, under the guise of “supporting the business”. Morale on the line is at the lowest I have ever known since I joined (a fair few years ago now). The press are rightly focussed on the airports being understaffed but are missing the fact the airline sacked too many people because they thought it was a great opportunity to create new contracts with lower pay and conditions. What a gross misjudgement – one that literally no one had been held to account over. It is because no one in a senior position has been held liable for the state of the operation, so now staff have no respect for the management.



Equally, there is no respect for us (pilots) and what we actually do. Thanks to the weak and ineffective association that is BALPA, the perception of our role has been dumbed down so much that ops staff actually believe that the airplanes “fly themselves” and that “anyone can be a pilot”. Our agreements are routinely ignored because the majority are afraid to question or don’t know what ops are allowed to do. Add to that fact the BALPA and the senior (LH pilots) essentially apologise for those agreements and make out that we are privileged and lucky to have the “best job in the world”. They argue that they are being realistic, but they just don’t want to rock the boat



JSS has proven to be an unmitigated disaster for anyone other the top 10% on each fleet. The short reserves are well-intentioned but, now with such a large number of short reserves used on each (SH) status each month, JSS is even less likely to work.



I was told that worst kept secret is that the new LGW EF commands are all discussing hours-building to then apply for command elsewhere. True or not, I guess we’ll all find out soon.

[Jwscud]

We’ll find out when Jet2 start making Airbus offers. For airline jobs, BA is still in my view as good as it gets. If you are after a more friendly and personal environment, historically Gatwick was a wonderful base to be at and a well kept secret, though very much depends on you living within 45 minutes or so of the airport. However, since the fire and rehire of all Gatwick based pilots (even those not made redundant are on worse T&Cs should they wish to move back to the base close to where they live) confidence in fair treatment is nonexistent and for anyone with >8 years in is financially penalising.

I agree with the suggestions of finding outside activities - I have several things outside the family keeping me busy and I turn up, fly and have fun with colleagues then disappear home and try to forget about it. I’m aware I’m on PPRuNe talking about it but the best thing I did was to get my wife to change my BALPA forum password to stop any temptation of going on there. Trying to keep away from the politics makes a big different, even if they are ultimately inescapable when looking at the payslip every month.

[hunterboy]

SunSmith……if I may offer an insight? I think to survive in BA it is necessary to grow a “shell”. We all go through your doubts. As someone that started off in BA in the regions, and then transferred to Gatwick onto another small fleet, it came as a big shock to go to big,bad LHR after several years. It was like joining a different airline. All of your previous comments and observations were the same 30 years ago. I think many BA pilots (and cabin crew) go through these doubts as many lose their passion for the job. However, once you take a look around (depending on personal circumstances) , and work out that, actually, the grass may not be greener, and that life generally improves as you progress in BA, people tend to stay, trapped by the (tarnished) golden handcuffs.
As previous posters mentioned, applying for part time , developing hobbies/interests outside of work, even getting married/starting a family mean that one’s focus is away from work and the awful CRC. The vast majority of people I work with at BA are great people trying to do their best under trying circumstances. I know certain work groups can be a bit awkward, however, I don’t think anybody blames them for walking off the job the moment their shift ends, even if mid way through a job.
‘There is a reason BA pilots say “Happiness is V1 at LHR” 😊

[thetimesreader84]

This isn't intended as a personal attack, as we are all trying to provide advice based on our own past experiences, both within and outside of BA.

I've been on the receiving end of the "it's not so bad being junior, we've all been there, you only have to be junior once, it gets better" chat from those I fly with. You then probe a bit deeper and out come stories of Bid Line, Clash and Protect, 600 hours per year and rapid movement up the seniority list (in one instance caused by c. 300 BMI pilots being added to the bottom of the list - let's leave those worms firmly in the can!)

We're the first pilots in what, 20/30 years? to be junior under a new bidding system. We're working under a new ruleset (EASA FTL) that is generally regarded as having much less fatigue protection than the old CAP FTL. Many on P32L have lost seniority, some significantly, as CRS pilots were pushed / parachuted onto the airbus fleet (I've not yet met one of them who wanted to be on SH). We've seen what career progression we might have expected (LH, Left Seat Airbus) pushed further away by those same ex CRS pilots who are (and I'm happy to be corrected) unfrozen for any other fleet they wish to move to in the next PRIAM bid. And we have a union that has (in practice, even if not intentionally) abandoned junior pilots as collateral damage).

I struggle to think of a reason to stay other than blind hope that it has to get better as other contributors have said it does, and the thought that after nearly 5 years of promising my family "it gets better, its a long term game at BA" it would be a hard sell to them to move. Again.