Aviation jobs T&C, employment/self employment & national laws
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@2unlimited: Its the employment law in Lithuania from the state so you have exactly the same chance to negotiate a better employment contract with an airline as you have to negotiate a self employment contract. So tell me why do you believe the airline will give you more if you decide do be an employee than if you decide to be self employed?
So again, you did not explain me how you get paid if reporting fatigue when you are employed and not self employed in an Eastern European nation and not in Norway where you can send an egenmelding. Its no difference if you are employed so why pay more tax and get lower salary if you are not getting paid either way.
You talk a lot that self employment is bad but you fail to explain what benefit it is to be employed instead when you are not living in Norway but for example living in Poland or Lithuania or in many other nations in the world?
As for practical solutions I believe you can report fatigue to your airline no matter if you are employed or self employed and then you will probably fly an another day when you would normally not fly and get paid the equal amount since you believe most people at for example Ryan Air or Wizz Air get to fly 900 hours per year either way. And since you can not fly more than 900 commercial hours per year then you would not get to fly more if you did not report the fatigue. As for airlines like LOT I believe you can risk not getting many more than the guaranteed 45 hours in that month if you report fatigue but probably they will just give you a flight when someone else report fatigue or sick that fly the same aircraft in the same position (FO or Captain). I have not worked for any airline so I do not know and I am honest about it.
But the point is: What benefit in reporting fatigue or anything else do you get from being employed instead of self employed since you believe employment is sooo much better. And we are talking about Poland, Lithuania, Eastern Europe etc. itd. not Norway where being self employed do not give you any benefit since you still get equal tax and where you actually get something from being employed. I can agree with you being employed in Norway is good, but what about the rest of the world especially Eastern Europe why being employed should be good for you?
As for using national school or roads: How can the state take value added tax from me when I buy anything from bread to a home, if it does not wish to give me anything in return? How can the state ask me to pay 70 % of gasoline price in tax if it is not to maintain or build the road? How can I have to pay road tax (like bompenger in Norway) every time I use A2 or A1 autobahn in Poland if its not to pay for the road? I do already pay the tax for all that stuff plus I actually pay tax as self employed (from what my aircraft earn) just less tax than if being employed. So why should big companies pay less tax than pilots, doctors, plumbers etc. ? Pilots, doctors, plumbers etc. deserve not to be taxed more than the big companies. Oh and I do actually pay the medical part of ZUS (mandatory but not income dependant) for normal hospital (I still prefer to pay additional for private one), I just do not have to pay the income dependent part for pension but the basic one (and will not receive one) since I do not even believe there will be any pension for the employees or anyone else after ZUS go bankrupt or it will be peanuts.
So again, you did not explain me how you get paid if reporting fatigue when you are employed and not self employed in an Eastern European nation and not in Norway where you can send an egenmelding. Its no difference if you are employed so why pay more tax and get lower salary if you are not getting paid either way.
You talk a lot that self employment is bad but you fail to explain what benefit it is to be employed instead when you are not living in Norway but for example living in Poland or Lithuania or in many other nations in the world?
As for practical solutions I believe you can report fatigue to your airline no matter if you are employed or self employed and then you will probably fly an another day when you would normally not fly and get paid the equal amount since you believe most people at for example Ryan Air or Wizz Air get to fly 900 hours per year either way. And since you can not fly more than 900 commercial hours per year then you would not get to fly more if you did not report the fatigue. As for airlines like LOT I believe you can risk not getting many more than the guaranteed 45 hours in that month if you report fatigue but probably they will just give you a flight when someone else report fatigue or sick that fly the same aircraft in the same position (FO or Captain). I have not worked for any airline so I do not know and I am honest about it.
But the point is: What benefit in reporting fatigue or anything else do you get from being employed instead of self employed since you believe employment is sooo much better. And we are talking about Poland, Lithuania, Eastern Europe etc. itd. not Norway where being self employed do not give you any benefit since you still get equal tax and where you actually get something from being employed. I can agree with you being employed in Norway is good, but what about the rest of the world especially Eastern Europe why being employed should be good for you?
As for using national school or roads: How can the state take value added tax from me when I buy anything from bread to a home, if it does not wish to give me anything in return? How can the state ask me to pay 70 % of gasoline price in tax if it is not to maintain or build the road? How can I have to pay road tax (like bompenger in Norway) every time I use A2 or A1 autobahn in Poland if its not to pay for the road? I do already pay the tax for all that stuff plus I actually pay tax as self employed (from what my aircraft earn) just less tax than if being employed. So why should big companies pay less tax than pilots, doctors, plumbers etc. ? Pilots, doctors, plumbers etc. deserve not to be taxed more than the big companies. Oh and I do actually pay the medical part of ZUS (mandatory but not income dependant) for normal hospital (I still prefer to pay additional for private one), I just do not have to pay the income dependent part for pension but the basic one (and will not receive one) since I do not even believe there will be any pension for the employees or anyone else after ZUS go bankrupt or it will be peanuts.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@2unlimited: If you are on local contract who is paying you the sick pay? ZUS in Poland will give you peanuts and you get to pay 32 % tax its cheaper to get insured. I do not know what notice period you get in LOT or Ryan Air I just said what the Lithuanian guy said about employment as employee in Lithuania.
The pay is not the same if you have to pay 32 % tax instead of 19 % tax with possible deductions not to mention you can deduct value added tax from many things or if you do not wish to deduct anything you can get fixed tax of 9 % that is being chosen by many pilots in for example LOT who do not have any other investment like a flat or aircraft for rent going on.
Where did I say I believed Ryan Air will save Polish aviation (and who said it must be saved, imagine that if people in Poland start flying as much as people do in western Europe there will be needed an extreme expansion of the airlines which will mean there will be a MANY jobs with bases in Poland. More than there are Polish FOs and Polish Captains) ? I just said they currently probably give the best salary with a base in Poland and that captains might with all bonuses get even up to 100 000 Euro per year. Still money is not everything for everyone since flying is also about enjoying it and realizing dreams. So as I said if I were to choose freely I would like 787 in LOT even with less salary. But as a completely new pilot after I get my licenses and will only get FI extra flight time.... I will be happy with absolutely any airline no matter what kind of aircraft it got.
The pay is not the same if you have to pay 32 % tax instead of 19 % tax with possible deductions not to mention you can deduct value added tax from many things or if you do not wish to deduct anything you can get fixed tax of 9 % that is being chosen by many pilots in for example LOT who do not have any other investment like a flat or aircraft for rent going on.
Where did I say I believed Ryan Air will save Polish aviation (and who said it must be saved, imagine that if people in Poland start flying as much as people do in western Europe there will be needed an extreme expansion of the airlines which will mean there will be a MANY jobs with bases in Poland. More than there are Polish FOs and Polish Captains) ? I just said they currently probably give the best salary with a base in Poland and that captains might with all bonuses get even up to 100 000 Euro per year. Still money is not everything for everyone since flying is also about enjoying it and realizing dreams. So as I said if I were to choose freely I would like 787 in LOT even with less salary. But as a completely new pilot after I get my licenses and will only get FI extra flight time.... I will be happy with absolutely any airline no matter what kind of aircraft it got.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@2unlimited: Actually what terms and conditions a company like Wizz Air, Ryan Air, LOT, Enter Air, Sprint Air offer is up to the company and people who wish to work for them. So its decided by how many pilots they need compared to how many pilots wish to work for them. Nothing else can change it..... its the natural law of supply and demand.
As for responsibility, you do know that even in Norway companies pay only 16 days of sick pay and then its up to the state to pay it from tax money? So there is no nation where its not up to the government and that is what employee tax goes for, and self employed pay less tax because they decide to insure themselves not through the state. And BTW why do government want tax if it want no responsibility, I agree government should not have any responsibility and therefore not get the tax but so long as they force us to pay tax they must be responsible.
What kind of rules are you talking about now that companies and countries like Poland do not follow? EU is an economic union to make easier flow of capital and that is what it should remain, even as it is now each country is sovereign and make its own rules and laws. There is no EU law that can be enforced on anyone who does not sign it. Every country is free to make its own tax rules as it wish, and it was in EU interest to expand so German companies could sell their stuff all over eastern Europe and get workers they needed. Why do you think EU so strongly wish that Ukraine do not join with Russia again? Do you believe its because EU wish to be kind to them, really? Its about selling their products and getting qualified labor from Ukraine not about being kind and nice.
You are not giving any money to any country you are doing what all nations in the EU agreed to do including UK. And if you do not like it you leave it just as UK is doing and no one will prevent you from doing so. I do not believe EU expanded eastwards to be kind and nice but because it was the economic interest of at least Germany and France. But this is a political discussion and not the point.
The point is that such as the law is today in most Eastern European nations there is no benefit to be employed, you only lose money by doing that. And why do you believe airlines would rather give better terms and conditions to employees and not to self employed people? And as for "unions" it should be even simpler for self employed people to negotiate than for employees. Who can prevent for example 1000 self employed captains go together to the administration of an airline and say that they wish a higher salary or else they can not deliver company service to the airline such as the terms are right now and they will stop after the contracted period ends everything according to the law they are companies not employees. I believe there is no airline that can get 1000 new captains immediately it would probably make the whole company stop flying and probably even go bankrupt or at least lose extreme amounts of money if those captains left. So the company would for sure negotiate new better self employment terms. You know self employed do not need any strikes and stuff like that they are not employees they can just lawfully say they are unable to provide their services beyond the current contracts under actual terms and conditions.
But of course such a thing can only work if there are not 1000 captains with no job waiting for their jobs, but if the supply and demand change and there will be more demand for captains than there is supply of new captains. Then every company will have to give better terms no matter if the captains are employed or self employed. AND the captains will be receiving more money with a pay rise as self employed than they will as employees since the state will not get their share as tax (in exchange for nothing from the state).
As for responsibility, you do know that even in Norway companies pay only 16 days of sick pay and then its up to the state to pay it from tax money? So there is no nation where its not up to the government and that is what employee tax goes for, and self employed pay less tax because they decide to insure themselves not through the state. And BTW why do government want tax if it want no responsibility, I agree government should not have any responsibility and therefore not get the tax but so long as they force us to pay tax they must be responsible.
What kind of rules are you talking about now that companies and countries like Poland do not follow? EU is an economic union to make easier flow of capital and that is what it should remain, even as it is now each country is sovereign and make its own rules and laws. There is no EU law that can be enforced on anyone who does not sign it. Every country is free to make its own tax rules as it wish, and it was in EU interest to expand so German companies could sell their stuff all over eastern Europe and get workers they needed. Why do you think EU so strongly wish that Ukraine do not join with Russia again? Do you believe its because EU wish to be kind to them, really? Its about selling their products and getting qualified labor from Ukraine not about being kind and nice.
You are not giving any money to any country you are doing what all nations in the EU agreed to do including UK. And if you do not like it you leave it just as UK is doing and no one will prevent you from doing so. I do not believe EU expanded eastwards to be kind and nice but because it was the economic interest of at least Germany and France. But this is a political discussion and not the point.
The point is that such as the law is today in most Eastern European nations there is no benefit to be employed, you only lose money by doing that. And why do you believe airlines would rather give better terms and conditions to employees and not to self employed people? And as for "unions" it should be even simpler for self employed people to negotiate than for employees. Who can prevent for example 1000 self employed captains go together to the administration of an airline and say that they wish a higher salary or else they can not deliver company service to the airline such as the terms are right now and they will stop after the contracted period ends everything according to the law they are companies not employees. I believe there is no airline that can get 1000 new captains immediately it would probably make the whole company stop flying and probably even go bankrupt or at least lose extreme amounts of money if those captains left. So the company would for sure negotiate new better self employment terms. You know self employed do not need any strikes and stuff like that they are not employees they can just lawfully say they are unable to provide their services beyond the current contracts under actual terms and conditions.
But of course such a thing can only work if there are not 1000 captains with no job waiting for their jobs, but if the supply and demand change and there will be more demand for captains than there is supply of new captains. Then every company will have to give better terms no matter if the captains are employed or self employed. AND the captains will be receiving more money with a pay rise as self employed than they will as employees since the state will not get their share as tax (in exchange for nothing from the state).
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@2unlimited: I think you do again not understand. The point is supply and demand, if there are no 1000 other captains waiting to get a job at the company it will be the company that will be afraid to loose 1000 self employed captains (they do not need to unite formally they can have unformalized closed forum for example)...... so firing them would just make the problem come at the airline immediately that means: no one to fly the aircraft...... As I said its supply and demand. Of course its pointless for anyone to negotiate anything if there are 1000 new captains waiting for the job at that airline, but the day the demand for captains is bigger than supply.....
As for the fatigue I understand what you mean but people who are employed as employees have exactly the same problem. So why do you blame it on self employment if the problem is exactly the same for employees ?? As for self employment actually if the airline decide it will pay for fatigue it will do so to everyone also self employed. Just as LOT Polish Airlines gave EVERYONE 45 hours guaranteed payment its not like if you are self employed you do not get the same terms and conditions. Still you believe self employment is something bad.
As for the fatigue I understand what you mean but people who are employed as employees have exactly the same problem. So why do you blame it on self employment if the problem is exactly the same for employees ?? As for self employment actually if the airline decide it will pay for fatigue it will do so to everyone also self employed. Just as LOT Polish Airlines gave EVERYONE 45 hours guaranteed payment its not like if you are self employed you do not get the same terms and conditions. Still you believe self employment is something bad.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@2unlimited: So you are trying to tell me that a company have no legal right to refuse a contract or to end it after the period included in the agreement with the contractor? Seriously? Have you never ever seen that companies as business to business can refuse renewed contracts with a certain company unless they get a new better deal?
Seriously do you believe only employees can resign from their job? What I just told you is a situation in which the demand for pilots or exactly said captains will be greater than supply of new captains (I do not include FOs since people will always wish to get their first airline job, even if it was for free) the company would definitely not wish to fire all or almost all of its captains in such a situation. Because that would result in grounding of all the aircraft..... and it would be impossible to get them flying again without giving new contracts to the self employed captains since not enough other captains would be interested in the job at current terms and conditions (demand exceed supply). Its the basic law of economics and the free market the law of supply and demand.
Regarding employment: So if you are legally employed but in Eastern Europe you will not get all of this that you are talking about. So tell me then why on earth should someone wish to be employed and not self employed while working in Poland for example? As for bargaining power do you believe small companies working for a big company can not negotiate together really?
Explained what that it does not fulfill the criteria of being self employed in certain nations? Can you imagine that there are no worldwide law for every nation on earth that dictates what are the criteria of being self employed? Seriously are you not getting that law is different nation from nation and that there are no criteria that apply to the whole world.
Every nation have DIFFERENT laws, therefore for example Norway can jail people for speeding even if the whole world does not do it and may think that its crazy. Still no one can force Norway to not do it, the same way with laws regarding taxes and business they differ between different nations.
Seriously do you believe only employees can resign from their job? What I just told you is a situation in which the demand for pilots or exactly said captains will be greater than supply of new captains (I do not include FOs since people will always wish to get their first airline job, even if it was for free) the company would definitely not wish to fire all or almost all of its captains in such a situation. Because that would result in grounding of all the aircraft..... and it would be impossible to get them flying again without giving new contracts to the self employed captains since not enough other captains would be interested in the job at current terms and conditions (demand exceed supply). Its the basic law of economics and the free market the law of supply and demand.
Regarding employment: So if you are legally employed but in Eastern Europe you will not get all of this that you are talking about. So tell me then why on earth should someone wish to be employed and not self employed while working in Poland for example? As for bargaining power do you believe small companies working for a big company can not negotiate together really?
Explained what that it does not fulfill the criteria of being self employed in certain nations? Can you imagine that there are no worldwide law for every nation on earth that dictates what are the criteria of being self employed? Seriously are you not getting that law is different nation from nation and that there are no criteria that apply to the whole world.
Every nation have DIFFERENT laws, therefore for example Norway can jail people for speeding even if the whole world does not do it and may think that its crazy. Still no one can force Norway to not do it, the same way with laws regarding taxes and business they differ between different nations.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@2unlimited: The law of economics work like that: pilots want to fly aircraft and there are more pilots who are qualified to fly than the airline need which means they can offer contracts like they do. But if the airlines will need more than there are qualified pilots who wish to fly its only then the salaries will be racing upwards. And the only chance I can see this happening is lack of captains if the predictions from Boeing and Airbus are real about the future aircraft to pilot ratio.
Just look to China they got some extreme medical requirements plus a rapidly growing aircraft fleet in addition they take their time to finish the medical assessments, so they have to pay extreme salaries because few pilots wanna risk waiting 6 months for a job they may not get if they will not get the Chinese medical that got some strange requirements from what I heard. If China decide that they accept EASA medical then salaries will probably drop immediately.
Its the law of demand and supply that run the whole worlds economics the basic law of economy and if you can not see it then its you living in an another world.
As for the issue with fatigue/unfit how shall I address it otherwise than saying that its really sad that pilots on employee contracts in Eastern Europe do not get this issue solved, so sadly in a similar way pilots who are self employed do also have this issue unsolved. And you still jump over the obvious reality: It does not give you better terms to be employed than self employed..... so why be employed and pay a lot more tax ? As for practical solutions its like I said, pilots will recover their salary when flying their hours on days when other pilots call unfit. And being employed do not solve this issue. So why are you saying its better to be employed when it does NOT SOLVE the issue ?
Regarding Ryan Air contracts, are you trying to say that a pilot on a self employed contract can not resign from renewing his contract and leave Ryan Air ? You believe that really? What I said is that in case there would ever be a captain shortage then the airline would be most of all afraid that the captains resign..... so firing them would just worsen the issue for the airline. But its all about supply and demand, there have to be a captain shortage first.
PS. Why are you deleting your previous posts to make it look like I am talking to myself ?
Just look to China they got some extreme medical requirements plus a rapidly growing aircraft fleet in addition they take their time to finish the medical assessments, so they have to pay extreme salaries because few pilots wanna risk waiting 6 months for a job they may not get if they will not get the Chinese medical that got some strange requirements from what I heard. If China decide that they accept EASA medical then salaries will probably drop immediately.
Its the law of demand and supply that run the whole worlds economics the basic law of economy and if you can not see it then its you living in an another world.
As for the issue with fatigue/unfit how shall I address it otherwise than saying that its really sad that pilots on employee contracts in Eastern Europe do not get this issue solved, so sadly in a similar way pilots who are self employed do also have this issue unsolved. And you still jump over the obvious reality: It does not give you better terms to be employed than self employed..... so why be employed and pay a lot more tax ? As for practical solutions its like I said, pilots will recover their salary when flying their hours on days when other pilots call unfit. And being employed do not solve this issue. So why are you saying its better to be employed when it does NOT SOLVE the issue ?
Regarding Ryan Air contracts, are you trying to say that a pilot on a self employed contract can not resign from renewing his contract and leave Ryan Air ? You believe that really? What I said is that in case there would ever be a captain shortage then the airline would be most of all afraid that the captains resign..... so firing them would just worsen the issue for the airline. But its all about supply and demand, there have to be a captain shortage first.
PS. Why are you deleting your previous posts to make it look like I am talking to myself ?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@2unlimited: Your position in regard to supply and demand, the basic law of economy is the same. If the supply of pilots is lower than the demand then its not a matter of contract the airline do not want to lose you. Or do you think that an airlines CEO and his HR will fly themselves if the third party agencies suddenly lose all the captains ? Its all a question of supply and demand as every other salary in every other profession.
Just look at China as I said, the supply is low because as I said few people wish to wait 6 months in uncertain if they have passed the Chinese medical assessment, if China accept EASA medical you will see how supply will go up and salaries will go down.
As for the strike in LOT I heard a lot about it but its mostly concerning those who joined loooong ago when LOT employed people with different contract, they actually gave employees better terms than minimum required by the law. So it was those employees who were wishing to strike. The whole thing ended with LOT giving guaranteed 45 hours for pilots and by that raised the salary pilots are guaranteed to receive. And they did it for everyone both those on employee contracts from before 2012 and newer pilots all employed as self employed. Today LOT do only employ self employed pilots.
As for people who work there...... imagine 2 instructors at my flight school are captains on Bombardier Dash Q400 so I heard a little about LOT and the concern they had was few flying hours when one of Q400 was out to repairs after that landing where front gear broke down. So getting 45 minimum hours did help them. Oh and actually the referendum was between the employed before 2012 I believe. And of course everyone would like the Ryan Air self employed salary when being self employed at LOT. But I did not hear anyone say they would rather be employed and pay more tax, since the employment conditions from the long past time would not be offered, today if LOT had to employ as employees then it would only offer probably the minimum required by law (and minimum required by law does not give you any better terms than being self employed).
Other than that I believe LOT will be paying higher and higher salaries because not everyone dream of 787 and having the chance to fly different aircraft (LOT pay the type ratings also for self employed) during the pilot career. So if Ryan Air and probably also Wizz Air will continue to pay more than LOT then LOT will probably not keep every captain they got.
Just look at China as I said, the supply is low because as I said few people wish to wait 6 months in uncertain if they have passed the Chinese medical assessment, if China accept EASA medical you will see how supply will go up and salaries will go down.
As for the strike in LOT I heard a lot about it but its mostly concerning those who joined loooong ago when LOT employed people with different contract, they actually gave employees better terms than minimum required by the law. So it was those employees who were wishing to strike. The whole thing ended with LOT giving guaranteed 45 hours for pilots and by that raised the salary pilots are guaranteed to receive. And they did it for everyone both those on employee contracts from before 2012 and newer pilots all employed as self employed. Today LOT do only employ self employed pilots.
As for people who work there...... imagine 2 instructors at my flight school are captains on Bombardier Dash Q400 so I heard a little about LOT and the concern they had was few flying hours when one of Q400 was out to repairs after that landing where front gear broke down. So getting 45 minimum hours did help them. Oh and actually the referendum was between the employed before 2012 I believe. And of course everyone would like the Ryan Air self employed salary when being self employed at LOT. But I did not hear anyone say they would rather be employed and pay more tax, since the employment conditions from the long past time would not be offered, today if LOT had to employ as employees then it would only offer probably the minimum required by law (and minimum required by law does not give you any better terms than being self employed).
Other than that I believe LOT will be paying higher and higher salaries because not everyone dream of 787 and having the chance to fly different aircraft (LOT pay the type ratings also for self employed) during the pilot career. So if Ryan Air and probably also Wizz Air will continue to pay more than LOT then LOT will probably not keep every captain they got.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@2unlimited: Regarding China of course they have a great demand and a low supply because they have requirements beyond what is required in EU or in the Emirates. One of them from what I both heard and read is a very strange medical and it takes 6 months of waiting before they are sure if they give the job or not. That is why they have to pay 300 000 and not for example 150 000 - 200 000, if they had the same kind of assessment and medical requirement as European airlines got for their captains they would have a queue probably in front of their recruiter while paying 150 000 - 200 000 instead of 300 000.
As for all the things you write about self employment in Ryan Air its probably what the scheme was (and still is in UK) before they realized it could be done simpler. From what I heard the deal they offer in Poland now is self employment in the simple way just as LOT does it in Poland. And all you write is probably correct and nice and well in UK.
BUT in Eastern Europe as employee it is as you wrote "your contract can be terminated without reason, fairly or unfairly, does not matter, you don't have the same legal rights, as somebody who is employed" IN UK. It apply to any profession not just pilots, any company offering the minimum contract for employee as the law require can do it. You do miss the point ALL the time, its not being employee in UK we talk about, we talk about Eastern Europe where you will not miss out anything while being self employed other than missing having to pay a lot of tax.
And as for Ryan Air salary for captains, the point is they pay the same salary as they pay in UK or other places to self employed. Its not like employee contract where they say you got lower living cost there and there. So actually Ryan Air captains can get up to 100 000 Euro per year with a base in Poland.
PS. I did not mention Ryan Air as golden standard of aviation, just no one else pay more with a base in Poland. Then I just said that pilots in Poland who I spoke with never said they dream of Lufthansa or KLM but some said they dream of Emirates. As for China everyone heard about it but I met no one willing to risk to fail the assessment or medical there and lose 6 months waiting for the job. Living in China that was NOT the problem (10 years working in china for 300 000 taxfree and saving 2/3 of the salary then investing it in Poland (you could buy a whole fleet for a flight school or a castle hotel to rent) would make even your grand-children live like kings).
As for all the things you write about self employment in Ryan Air its probably what the scheme was (and still is in UK) before they realized it could be done simpler. From what I heard the deal they offer in Poland now is self employment in the simple way just as LOT does it in Poland. And all you write is probably correct and nice and well in UK.
BUT in Eastern Europe as employee it is as you wrote "your contract can be terminated without reason, fairly or unfairly, does not matter, you don't have the same legal rights, as somebody who is employed" IN UK. It apply to any profession not just pilots, any company offering the minimum contract for employee as the law require can do it. You do miss the point ALL the time, its not being employee in UK we talk about, we talk about Eastern Europe where you will not miss out anything while being self employed other than missing having to pay a lot of tax.
And as for Ryan Air salary for captains, the point is they pay the same salary as they pay in UK or other places to self employed. Its not like employee contract where they say you got lower living cost there and there. So actually Ryan Air captains can get up to 100 000 Euro per year with a base in Poland.
PS. I did not mention Ryan Air as golden standard of aviation, just no one else pay more with a base in Poland. Then I just said that pilots in Poland who I spoke with never said they dream of Lufthansa or KLM but some said they dream of Emirates. As for China everyone heard about it but I met no one willing to risk to fail the assessment or medical there and lose 6 months waiting for the job. Living in China that was NOT the problem (10 years working in china for 300 000 taxfree and saving 2/3 of the salary then investing it in Poland (you could buy a whole fleet for a flight school or a castle hotel to rent) would make even your grand-children live like kings).
Last edited by KT1988; 3rd May 2019 at 11:33.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@2unlimited: And UK is also still members of the EU and they follow only those regulations that they have signed.... as you know Ireland are also members of the EU. And recently I believe Ryan Air found out they do not need to give Irish contracts to people in Eastern Europe since the local laws let them self employ people just as LOT is doing. And LOT is not employing people after 2-3 years at least I did not hear the captains working for LOT tell anything like that and they already worked that long, plus probably almost no one in Poland would really wish to pay the higher tax in exchange for Polish employment.
Oh and I believe you missed the four freedoms of EU while you keep telling me EU can govern employee contracts in any state (and it can not). It is that everyone from any country is to be treated equally (even LOT now hire foreign pilots). So you need to definitely speak German or Dutch fluently but you do not have to have the nationality to be working for Lufthansa or KLM. https://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Ai...Dutch-Airlines actually they only need to be willing to learn Dutch for example. So you believe you know everything but it happens to not be the reality. As for Lufthansa you need to already speak fluent German but thats it (I actually speak German (and many pilots in Poland do), with some work it could be with correct grammar and fluent, but it never entered my mind to dream of flying for Lufthansa)
As for Ryan Air salaries, I talked with Ryan Air FO and he is receiving the advertised salary, I also talked with a Captain and he also receive a proper salary. So I do not know personally but I believe them more than someone on a forum telling me that Ryan Air do not pay the salary they put in the contract.
As for living in Poland.... well in Norway a SAS FO gets lower salary than a factory worker in Norway. Its definitely not cool, and the cost of living is so high that you live better having 50 % of the Norwegian salary in Poland not to mention that at Ryan Air you can get like 80 % of the Norwegian pilot netto salary at least if not more. BTW salary is not everything for me since I do also invest and I do not actually need to have a job to survive, I wish to fly because I enjoy it and its my dream. As for other things than the obvious that in Norway you need more than 2x netto salary to be able to buy the same stuff as in Poland (cars, houses, food and especially enjoyment like going out). Its also the fact that the state is extremely controlling maybe most in whole Europe and I hate the state to tell me how to live. I do not wish to have the state to tell me when I can go out, to tell me when and where I can buy something, to tell me what kind of dog I am allowed to own, to risk jail if I speed a little on autobahn etc. itd. Its certainly the perfect society for factory workers and especially for people who do not wish to work at all but feel "entitled" to everything. Its a perfect society for everyone except business owners, hard working people, professions that require a lot of learning and investment etc. They just get exploited to pay for those who do not wish to work at all + to pay for all the stuff like fancy toilets and cultural stuff like naked artists running on the scene..... And when I hear the future coalitionists of the future AP Norwegian government speak (Lysbakken (SV) and Moxnes (Rødt) + whole MDG (if they could they would forbid flying at all and make you use a horse and carriage) ) it gets my blood to almost boil, so I am definitely going to be happy that I do not live there when the real socialists come to get your money and control your life even more.
Last but not least I forgot about the Norwegian reward for everyone who work hard and do not spend all his money like those people in luksusfellen, if you actually save and invest the state will reward you with formueskatt its a tax you have to pay from your savings no matter if you for example own an aircraft (or a house) and you can really not sell a part of it to pay the tax, the state still want you to pay. One company got so pissed they tried to pay the tax in very valuable metal chains (according to the taxman assessment) but the state did not wish the unsellable chains its taxman valued so much and forced the company to almost go bankrupt to pay tax for owning those chains. Oh and I just forgot they are planning to get back to the tax on dying so called arveavgift so if you die they will tax your hard taxed money once again so your family do not get what you worked hard for.
Oh and I believe you missed the four freedoms of EU while you keep telling me EU can govern employee contracts in any state (and it can not). It is that everyone from any country is to be treated equally (even LOT now hire foreign pilots). So you need to definitely speak German or Dutch fluently but you do not have to have the nationality to be working for Lufthansa or KLM. https://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Ai...Dutch-Airlines actually they only need to be willing to learn Dutch for example. So you believe you know everything but it happens to not be the reality. As for Lufthansa you need to already speak fluent German but thats it (I actually speak German (and many pilots in Poland do), with some work it could be with correct grammar and fluent, but it never entered my mind to dream of flying for Lufthansa)
As for Ryan Air salaries, I talked with Ryan Air FO and he is receiving the advertised salary, I also talked with a Captain and he also receive a proper salary. So I do not know personally but I believe them more than someone on a forum telling me that Ryan Air do not pay the salary they put in the contract.
As for living in Poland.... well in Norway a SAS FO gets lower salary than a factory worker in Norway. Its definitely not cool, and the cost of living is so high that you live better having 50 % of the Norwegian salary in Poland not to mention that at Ryan Air you can get like 80 % of the Norwegian pilot netto salary at least if not more. BTW salary is not everything for me since I do also invest and I do not actually need to have a job to survive, I wish to fly because I enjoy it and its my dream. As for other things than the obvious that in Norway you need more than 2x netto salary to be able to buy the same stuff as in Poland (cars, houses, food and especially enjoyment like going out). Its also the fact that the state is extremely controlling maybe most in whole Europe and I hate the state to tell me how to live. I do not wish to have the state to tell me when I can go out, to tell me when and where I can buy something, to tell me what kind of dog I am allowed to own, to risk jail if I speed a little on autobahn etc. itd. Its certainly the perfect society for factory workers and especially for people who do not wish to work at all but feel "entitled" to everything. Its a perfect society for everyone except business owners, hard working people, professions that require a lot of learning and investment etc. They just get exploited to pay for those who do not wish to work at all + to pay for all the stuff like fancy toilets and cultural stuff like naked artists running on the scene..... And when I hear the future coalitionists of the future AP Norwegian government speak (Lysbakken (SV) and Moxnes (Rødt) + whole MDG (if they could they would forbid flying at all and make you use a horse and carriage) ) it gets my blood to almost boil, so I am definitely going to be happy that I do not live there when the real socialists come to get your money and control your life even more.
Last but not least I forgot about the Norwegian reward for everyone who work hard and do not spend all his money like those people in luksusfellen, if you actually save and invest the state will reward you with formueskatt its a tax you have to pay from your savings no matter if you for example own an aircraft (or a house) and you can really not sell a part of it to pay the tax, the state still want you to pay. One company got so pissed they tried to pay the tax in very valuable metal chains (according to the taxman assessment) but the state did not wish the unsellable chains its taxman valued so much and forced the company to almost go bankrupt to pay tax for owning those chains. Oh and I just forgot they are planning to get back to the tax on dying so called arveavgift so if you die they will tax your hard taxed money once again so your family do not get what you worked hard for.
Last edited by KT1988; 3rd May 2019 at 13:28.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@2unlimited: As for factory workers its just an example of a job that do not require "fagbrev" or any studies etc. that any one can perform. In addition there are like 33 % or even more of the population aged 18-67 who do recieve "free money" from the state and do not work. Its very strange that people tend to live longer in Norway on average than most other places but still they are so sick that no other nation got so many incapable of working. By the way its not the biggest problem not at all, the biggest one is the politicians using tax money on fancy buildings, fancy toilets, fancy swimming halls that never get finished and other stuff that equates to throwing money out the window and the most hardworking people have to pay most tax to finance it.
Did you actually read the article you pasted or just read the headline? The police in Germany did not stop them because they drove too fast on autobahn they stopped them because they were suspected to be part of a illegal car race on the streets. Either way they did not get their careers destroyed by getting jailed like they would in Norway. And if they drove alone in 250 km/h on free speed autobahn no one would stopped them it was about the race. As for the cars as you see most of them are not brand new AND you know even a guy in luksusfellen owned a Ferrari.... but its not a problem in Norway. The banks are throwing loans after you so even a person with no job can get to loan like 250 000 euro from different banks as fobrukslån. The point is the problem comes afterwards and some people like that end up in luksusfellen to the amusement of people watching the program. While most people do not do such crazy stuff, you can look up statistics about how many people own their home in Norway and the debt per person is just extreme. No one in Poland would take a loan for their inherited house up to the chimney to buy a Ferrari. Just check the statistics if the loan interest goes a little more up you will see half of the nation in Norway cry for the government to tax those who saved money..... in order to pay for their loans.... and the government will probably oblige.
As for my parents as I said my mother (my father working in IT actually got a reduced netto salary after moving to Norway from Poland) moved in 1997 and I admit it was bad times for doctors in Poland, but Norway actually made extra good salaries for doctors back then to attract foreign specialist doctors because they could not cope with the queues with their own doctors they did not care to train in a proper amount (they still do not and send most of students to Poland and other places in Europe to study). Right now doctors at private clinics in Poland earn the proper amount but my mother is clearly in an age where she do not care to set up everything from the scratch in Poland so she will work in Norway until she can get back some of her tax as pension and then move to Poland of course. As for myself I got Polish passport and have no need for the Norwegian one, but clearly the state in Norway will not let me "move" before 3 years have passed after I moved and they require my financial reports. Oh and my parents actually saved a lot even with the taxes they paid cause they instead of wildly spending saved as much as possible both in a house, shares etc. itd. did not eat at restaurants, did not travel all the time for holidays, did not buy stuff they did not need etc. itd. but instead saved and invested and kept doing it consequently for over 20 years, the reward is extra tax from the state to give tax deduction for those who bought a Ferrari while not being able to afford it (loans can get deducted from tax actually so no wonder many Norwegians buy stuff they can not afford....)
As for pilot salaries you will actually get more for your netto salary in Poland than you will get for your netto salary in Norway about 2x as much or even more if its about cars etc. But the laws trying to control your life are alone enough to move in order to be free from a state that wish to control your every step. And if captains in LOT are unhappy they can get as DEC to Ryan Air (according to my information the assessment at Ryan Air is actually easier than at LOT and captains do actually get invited on the assessment to Ryan Air especially those with 737 or 787 rating and experience) but maybe some of them are flying not to achieve the highest possible salary but because they enjoy it and thrive at LOT.
The self employment contracts are not ending in Eastern Europe instead they are getting expanded and I believe soon Wizz Air will also offer a national deal instead of the Switzerland deal after they learn like Ryan Air that they can. And Poland discarded the idea of changing anything so every profession can still be self employed. And it is not changing, I believe sooner will Norway stop their social security (if they go forward to import as many new citizens dependent on social security as Sweden does after Arbeiderpartiet start governing with SV, Rødt and MDG) than Poland will stop self employment. You will see the future already in Norway the state tell you what car you can buy, what dog you can own, how you are supposed to raise your children, they jail you for speeding, they tell you when you can go out or when you can buy alcohol (alcoholics just buy from smugglers and hamster the stuff at home, it just disturbs non alcoholics who wish to have a party) etc. itd. But after SV, Rødt and MDG start governing together with AP then the state will literally get inside peoples homes.... so I am happy that I moved and you will see even some Norwegians living in Norway for many generations will be moving if the state claims even more control of peoples life (about 15 % do not wish it that way and vote FrP or Liberalistene). You asked me why I chose to not live in Norway so this is the answer I do not wish the state to control my life and even if it was financially better to live in Norway I would not go back because I enjoy being free from a controlling state.
PS. Why do you keep deleting your previous posts?
Did you actually read the article you pasted or just read the headline? The police in Germany did not stop them because they drove too fast on autobahn they stopped them because they were suspected to be part of a illegal car race on the streets. Either way they did not get their careers destroyed by getting jailed like they would in Norway. And if they drove alone in 250 km/h on free speed autobahn no one would stopped them it was about the race. As for the cars as you see most of them are not brand new AND you know even a guy in luksusfellen owned a Ferrari.... but its not a problem in Norway. The banks are throwing loans after you so even a person with no job can get to loan like 250 000 euro from different banks as fobrukslån. The point is the problem comes afterwards and some people like that end up in luksusfellen to the amusement of people watching the program. While most people do not do such crazy stuff, you can look up statistics about how many people own their home in Norway and the debt per person is just extreme. No one in Poland would take a loan for their inherited house up to the chimney to buy a Ferrari. Just check the statistics if the loan interest goes a little more up you will see half of the nation in Norway cry for the government to tax those who saved money..... in order to pay for their loans.... and the government will probably oblige.
As for my parents as I said my mother (my father working in IT actually got a reduced netto salary after moving to Norway from Poland) moved in 1997 and I admit it was bad times for doctors in Poland, but Norway actually made extra good salaries for doctors back then to attract foreign specialist doctors because they could not cope with the queues with their own doctors they did not care to train in a proper amount (they still do not and send most of students to Poland and other places in Europe to study). Right now doctors at private clinics in Poland earn the proper amount but my mother is clearly in an age where she do not care to set up everything from the scratch in Poland so she will work in Norway until she can get back some of her tax as pension and then move to Poland of course. As for myself I got Polish passport and have no need for the Norwegian one, but clearly the state in Norway will not let me "move" before 3 years have passed after I moved and they require my financial reports. Oh and my parents actually saved a lot even with the taxes they paid cause they instead of wildly spending saved as much as possible both in a house, shares etc. itd. did not eat at restaurants, did not travel all the time for holidays, did not buy stuff they did not need etc. itd. but instead saved and invested and kept doing it consequently for over 20 years, the reward is extra tax from the state to give tax deduction for those who bought a Ferrari while not being able to afford it (loans can get deducted from tax actually so no wonder many Norwegians buy stuff they can not afford....)
As for pilot salaries you will actually get more for your netto salary in Poland than you will get for your netto salary in Norway about 2x as much or even more if its about cars etc. But the laws trying to control your life are alone enough to move in order to be free from a state that wish to control your every step. And if captains in LOT are unhappy they can get as DEC to Ryan Air (according to my information the assessment at Ryan Air is actually easier than at LOT and captains do actually get invited on the assessment to Ryan Air especially those with 737 or 787 rating and experience) but maybe some of them are flying not to achieve the highest possible salary but because they enjoy it and thrive at LOT.
The self employment contracts are not ending in Eastern Europe instead they are getting expanded and I believe soon Wizz Air will also offer a national deal instead of the Switzerland deal after they learn like Ryan Air that they can. And Poland discarded the idea of changing anything so every profession can still be self employed. And it is not changing, I believe sooner will Norway stop their social security (if they go forward to import as many new citizens dependent on social security as Sweden does after Arbeiderpartiet start governing with SV, Rødt and MDG) than Poland will stop self employment. You will see the future already in Norway the state tell you what car you can buy, what dog you can own, how you are supposed to raise your children, they jail you for speeding, they tell you when you can go out or when you can buy alcohol (alcoholics just buy from smugglers and hamster the stuff at home, it just disturbs non alcoholics who wish to have a party) etc. itd. But after SV, Rødt and MDG start governing together with AP then the state will literally get inside peoples homes.... so I am happy that I moved and you will see even some Norwegians living in Norway for many generations will be moving if the state claims even more control of peoples life (about 15 % do not wish it that way and vote FrP or Liberalistene). You asked me why I chose to not live in Norway so this is the answer I do not wish the state to control my life and even if it was financially better to live in Norway I would not go back because I enjoy being free from a controlling state.
PS. Why do you keep deleting your previous posts?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@2unlimited: I am not a socialist so I am not trying to make any big picture of a society, I let people live like they wish to live I do not try to make them live like I believe is best. I do also not wish to be responsible for total strangers and the decisions they make in their lifes. So I prefer a system where every individual can live his life and not a system that try to shape everyone into the system not caring that everyone is different and the average person does not exist.
As for writing about Polish workers you must think of those that came after Poland joined EU because before that only people who were specifically desired by a state could go work there. And who told you the workers from Poland do not pay any taxes especially in Norway ? Its impossible to not pay taxes in Norway, its even impossible to drive a car that is not registered in Norway. The state made the police care more about taxes than it care about murder and the laws are made in a way its impossible to not pay tax. Every worker even after the EU that come to Norway need to pay the Norwegian tax if they are registered officially. If someone work black just like some workers employed in a company co owned by the leader of socialist party.... well its then the Norwegian owners making it possible and its not the fault of Poland. But from what I know the Norwegian police is working harder to find the people working black (maybe except the reindeer owners in Finnmark they get away one even sent a letter to NAV expecting sick pay from his non taxed income.... it got sent to skatteetaten and he did not get sick pay) than its working with violent criminal acts.
As for my parents they actually enjoy life and travel often now as what they saved give them interests from different investments in serious stuff like flats and no "Nigeria and Antigua" schemes. But the point is earn first then spend, not like extremely many people do now that is take loans on everything even the stuff they inherited from their parents and just go wildly spending and buying for example a Ferrari they can not afford actually. In that case the mentality in Poland is totally different, families are more important and people actually wish to make their future generations (not the state and total strangers, but their children and grand children) have best possible life. I believe it was also the case in Norway before oil were found and many new generations spend in moments what their ancestors worked long to achieve and that is how they get Ferrari taking a loan on the house they inherited for example.
As for the mentality part check the amount of students from Norway who fail to pass first year on medicine in Poland.... and after you get a shock how many % do fail then I tell you why.... instead of learning they go on spending and having fun when they discover Polish prices and probably drink more than they did in their whole life in one year. People supposed to study being on a loan to study, drive around in taxis, eat at restaurants and drink. Then they come back to Norway with failed study, loan and ask for "free money" and tax deduction for the loan and hard working people have to pay tax to help them.... but if you are happy with that.... then I wonder why you live in UK when NAS and SAS got bases in Norway? Or maybe you too do not wish to pay that much tax and rather live in UK with lower tax and cheaper stuff from cars to food?
As for being economically independent well did I tell you that a SEP is everything I do own? I do not need to list the non aviation related stuff. And as for the SEP well it actually can earn more than average salary in Poland so its quite a good investment at least so long as there will be people who wish to become pilots like there are a lot of now, it also made my own training a lot cheaper. And the school is very good with a captain who is CFI & the main owner, plus many professional instructors both FOs and Captains who fly in the airlines and instruct part time, so I believe it got a bright future (especially when I read how bigger schools work (or actually does not work) like BAA then the future got to be bright when doing everything as it should be done) so I do what I can "to get on that ship" as much as possible.
As for moving out of Norway I am already "utvandret" long ago but Norway still need my financial reports from Poland. My bookkeeper was like "WTF?" but I told him its how Norway works and what I need to have to send to skatteetaten. I believe Norway is the only nation who wish to get financial reports of their "utvandret" for 3 years.
As for the cars, you know that manufactures and ships do pollute 80 % and cars are so tiny amount of pollution especially excluded the trucks etc. But Norway do not only plague people with special tax on the cars its all other things also that I listed up. They even tell you what kind of dog you are allowed to own or when you can buy stuff at the shop.... and they actually only hit on the law abiding citizens because those who they "wish to hit" (like alcoholic buying smuggler wares) do not obey any law so they do what they please (not like they have any career the state can take from them, their career is getting free money from the state).... so only law abiding people suffer. And now its still not that bad, but I do not wish to even imagine what will happen when SV, Rødt and MDG get to govern in Norway (AP governed before but without the real socialists). They are probably literally going to get inside peoples homes. But somehow you live in UK so you will probably also miss out on the "social security paradise" they gonna make after the next election in Norway (Oslo is already unlivable from what I read in the news about MDG and taxes on every road, no cars etc.).
PS. Why do you delete all your previous posts? Do you not wish to stand behind what you write or what?
As for writing about Polish workers you must think of those that came after Poland joined EU because before that only people who were specifically desired by a state could go work there. And who told you the workers from Poland do not pay any taxes especially in Norway ? Its impossible to not pay taxes in Norway, its even impossible to drive a car that is not registered in Norway. The state made the police care more about taxes than it care about murder and the laws are made in a way its impossible to not pay tax. Every worker even after the EU that come to Norway need to pay the Norwegian tax if they are registered officially. If someone work black just like some workers employed in a company co owned by the leader of socialist party.... well its then the Norwegian owners making it possible and its not the fault of Poland. But from what I know the Norwegian police is working harder to find the people working black (maybe except the reindeer owners in Finnmark they get away one even sent a letter to NAV expecting sick pay from his non taxed income.... it got sent to skatteetaten and he did not get sick pay) than its working with violent criminal acts.
As for my parents they actually enjoy life and travel often now as what they saved give them interests from different investments in serious stuff like flats and no "Nigeria and Antigua" schemes. But the point is earn first then spend, not like extremely many people do now that is take loans on everything even the stuff they inherited from their parents and just go wildly spending and buying for example a Ferrari they can not afford actually. In that case the mentality in Poland is totally different, families are more important and people actually wish to make their future generations (not the state and total strangers, but their children and grand children) have best possible life. I believe it was also the case in Norway before oil were found and many new generations spend in moments what their ancestors worked long to achieve and that is how they get Ferrari taking a loan on the house they inherited for example.
As for the mentality part check the amount of students from Norway who fail to pass first year on medicine in Poland.... and after you get a shock how many % do fail then I tell you why.... instead of learning they go on spending and having fun when they discover Polish prices and probably drink more than they did in their whole life in one year. People supposed to study being on a loan to study, drive around in taxis, eat at restaurants and drink. Then they come back to Norway with failed study, loan and ask for "free money" and tax deduction for the loan and hard working people have to pay tax to help them.... but if you are happy with that.... then I wonder why you live in UK when NAS and SAS got bases in Norway? Or maybe you too do not wish to pay that much tax and rather live in UK with lower tax and cheaper stuff from cars to food?
As for being economically independent well did I tell you that a SEP is everything I do own? I do not need to list the non aviation related stuff. And as for the SEP well it actually can earn more than average salary in Poland so its quite a good investment at least so long as there will be people who wish to become pilots like there are a lot of now, it also made my own training a lot cheaper. And the school is very good with a captain who is CFI & the main owner, plus many professional instructors both FOs and Captains who fly in the airlines and instruct part time, so I believe it got a bright future (especially when I read how bigger schools work (or actually does not work) like BAA then the future got to be bright when doing everything as it should be done) so I do what I can "to get on that ship" as much as possible.
As for moving out of Norway I am already "utvandret" long ago but Norway still need my financial reports from Poland. My bookkeeper was like "WTF?" but I told him its how Norway works and what I need to have to send to skatteetaten. I believe Norway is the only nation who wish to get financial reports of their "utvandret" for 3 years.
As for the cars, you know that manufactures and ships do pollute 80 % and cars are so tiny amount of pollution especially excluded the trucks etc. But Norway do not only plague people with special tax on the cars its all other things also that I listed up. They even tell you what kind of dog you are allowed to own or when you can buy stuff at the shop.... and they actually only hit on the law abiding citizens because those who they "wish to hit" (like alcoholic buying smuggler wares) do not obey any law so they do what they please (not like they have any career the state can take from them, their career is getting free money from the state).... so only law abiding people suffer. And now its still not that bad, but I do not wish to even imagine what will happen when SV, Rødt and MDG get to govern in Norway (AP governed before but without the real socialists). They are probably literally going to get inside peoples homes. But somehow you live in UK so you will probably also miss out on the "social security paradise" they gonna make after the next election in Norway (Oslo is already unlivable from what I read in the news about MDG and taxes on every road, no cars etc.).
PS. Why do you delete all your previous posts? Do you not wish to stand behind what you write or what?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@2unlimited: Well as for me especially Norway will be as close as you can get to socialism (especially after SV, Rødt and MDG start governing) without becoming a communism, a so called democratic socialism (Venezuela, Cuba, Soviet etc. were/are communisms or forced socialisms). And west Germany and todays Germany or any other nation in EU can not be compared to Norway, even Sweden is much different.... imagine I read that in the past 80s or something they had like 1 TV channel in Norway and before that they discussed if color TVs should be legal.... totally not what happened in West Germany its not comparable. And if you check the different laws that forbid different things you will find out that even Sweden is a lot different for example they do not wish to decide what dog you are allowed to own or put you in jail for speeding (it can like destroy peoples careers not only in aviation)...... not to mention Denmark which is even less restrictive and controlling.
I must ask when were you in Poland ? In the 90s ? Because today Warszawa at least is like any other big city in Europe (I do not like big cities) and the health care you get at private clinics is higher standard than you get at official hospital in Norway and without waiting for anything. As for dentists you certainly have not been at any of those who advertise in Gdansk for the Scandinavian customers who fly there to get their tooth fixed. Because its like shiny brand new stuff there. So I believe it had to be very long ago you visited Poland, and its definitely not boring (boring is one of the reasons I also did really not like Norway) at least if you know Polish if not then maybe. Personally I prefer the countryside in Poland small villages and places like that, there might be some old stuff there but it makes an epic atmosphere for someone who is polish at least and the "vodka party" is much more fun than a fancy party house in a city (I do seldom go out anywhere but if I do I prefer the atmosphere of a village and a bonfire in the open). Oh and the supermarkets got plenty of everything in like 15 years so you had to be veeery long ago in Poland. I do at least enjoy Poland everyday plus I actually know a lot of people here.
As for all workers in UK who are working black I understand it annoys UK but its UK police who do not do the job. In Norway they get caught pretty quickly by the police but again the police find economic stuff the most important in Norway (and its not good if they do not have time for violence crimes). But its not because of the EU..... cause with schengen UK will still get all those people working black visiting them. And I do not have anything against brexit, I am for sovereign states in Europe and I wished EU went back to just economic stuff like it was meant to be in the beginning. And as for "free money" I believe Norway will have the biggest problem if they do what Sweden did already and import new citizens who are totally dependent on the "free money" and they will do so with a new government after next election. The biggest problems with laws in many western European countries and especially in Norway is that they hit only law abiding citizens, while those who wish "free stuff" and do not care about laws will still do whatever they wish (they do not care about jail, Norwegian one is like hotel for them and they do not pursue any career that jail might destroy).
PS. I still wonder why you keep deleting previous posts that you wrote?
I must ask when were you in Poland ? In the 90s ? Because today Warszawa at least is like any other big city in Europe (I do not like big cities) and the health care you get at private clinics is higher standard than you get at official hospital in Norway and without waiting for anything. As for dentists you certainly have not been at any of those who advertise in Gdansk for the Scandinavian customers who fly there to get their tooth fixed. Because its like shiny brand new stuff there. So I believe it had to be very long ago you visited Poland, and its definitely not boring (boring is one of the reasons I also did really not like Norway) at least if you know Polish if not then maybe. Personally I prefer the countryside in Poland small villages and places like that, there might be some old stuff there but it makes an epic atmosphere for someone who is polish at least and the "vodka party" is much more fun than a fancy party house in a city (I do seldom go out anywhere but if I do I prefer the atmosphere of a village and a bonfire in the open). Oh and the supermarkets got plenty of everything in like 15 years so you had to be veeery long ago in Poland. I do at least enjoy Poland everyday plus I actually know a lot of people here.
As for all workers in UK who are working black I understand it annoys UK but its UK police who do not do the job. In Norway they get caught pretty quickly by the police but again the police find economic stuff the most important in Norway (and its not good if they do not have time for violence crimes). But its not because of the EU..... cause with schengen UK will still get all those people working black visiting them. And I do not have anything against brexit, I am for sovereign states in Europe and I wished EU went back to just economic stuff like it was meant to be in the beginning. And as for "free money" I believe Norway will have the biggest problem if they do what Sweden did already and import new citizens who are totally dependent on the "free money" and they will do so with a new government after next election. The biggest problems with laws in many western European countries and especially in Norway is that they hit only law abiding citizens, while those who wish "free stuff" and do not care about laws will still do whatever they wish (they do not care about jail, Norwegian one is like hotel for them and they do not pursue any career that jail might destroy).
PS. I still wonder why you keep deleting previous posts that you wrote?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@2unlimited: So name one (not to talk about many) whole country besides Norway where you go to jail for speeding (only speeding like in Norway, not crashing etc.) ?
As for dogs there is a whole list in Norway of what kinds the state believe are dangerous (Denmark got some on the list but not as many as Norway and no other nation in EU got such a list of not allowed dogs) and in addition to those they believe are dangerous they also made czech wolfdog illegal because it looks exactly like a wolf (and it makes me think of having one). Yes literally it stands in the "forarbeider" to the law its the only reason and they believed it could mix with real wolves, again the whole world stand amused since its not forbidden anywhere else in the world. Not to talk about other extremely strange stuff that is forbidden, actually in the past they made even skateboards forbidden but the ban did not last long. Still its the best sign of a socialist state to forbid things the government do not like or think they do not like or that may be dangerous according to the government but not necessarily according to the reality.
So a Marxist state is a communist state, while socialism is not communism its a much milder version that exist because of the capitalistic elements in the economy but it still does the best it can to control every human being as far as possible and try to make everyone into an average person (that do not exist, since people are individuals) to make it fit into a collective system the politicians believe is good. I will watch with curiosity what happens after next election in Norway when Rødt, SV and MDG get to govern with AP, happily I will watch this experiment from outside.
As for prices in Norway it does not even out in professions like pilot profession that are rewarded with good salaries all around the world, yet again the average salary benefit most "factory worker" professions.
As for how you saw Poland well maybe Wizz Air found a really bad hotel for you they exist still but it does not mean the whole place is like that. And those "soviet era apartments" maybe some look old style but non of them are state run and they are all modernized and private. I live outside of Warszawa but close enough (too close for my liking since I like countryside better) to be close to EPBC. In the future I hope they make the airport in Radom functional then I can live exactly where I wish in Poland (countryside to the south of it) if I get to this base.
As for dogs there is a whole list in Norway of what kinds the state believe are dangerous (Denmark got some on the list but not as many as Norway and no other nation in EU got such a list of not allowed dogs) and in addition to those they believe are dangerous they also made czech wolfdog illegal because it looks exactly like a wolf (and it makes me think of having one). Yes literally it stands in the "forarbeider" to the law its the only reason and they believed it could mix with real wolves, again the whole world stand amused since its not forbidden anywhere else in the world. Not to talk about other extremely strange stuff that is forbidden, actually in the past they made even skateboards forbidden but the ban did not last long. Still its the best sign of a socialist state to forbid things the government do not like or think they do not like or that may be dangerous according to the government but not necessarily according to the reality.
So a Marxist state is a communist state, while socialism is not communism its a much milder version that exist because of the capitalistic elements in the economy but it still does the best it can to control every human being as far as possible and try to make everyone into an average person (that do not exist, since people are individuals) to make it fit into a collective system the politicians believe is good. I will watch with curiosity what happens after next election in Norway when Rødt, SV and MDG get to govern with AP, happily I will watch this experiment from outside.
As for prices in Norway it does not even out in professions like pilot profession that are rewarded with good salaries all around the world, yet again the average salary benefit most "factory worker" professions.
As for how you saw Poland well maybe Wizz Air found a really bad hotel for you they exist still but it does not mean the whole place is like that. And those "soviet era apartments" maybe some look old style but non of them are state run and they are all modernized and private. I live outside of Warszawa but close enough (too close for my liking since I like countryside better) to be close to EPBC. In the future I hope they make the airport in Radom functional then I can live exactly where I wish in Poland (countryside to the south of it) if I get to this base.
Last edited by KT1988; 4th May 2019 at 02:36.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@2unlimited: Once again you believe you know the reality..... but yes Norway is the only country where you go to jail for speeding alone (no accident no nothing) AND you also can in New York but not in the rest of USA and even in New York you can legally pay yourself out of it (its an old law like in some county in Maryland where you are legally obliged to always carry a weapon). As for Germany NO you can not go to jail for speeding alone, unless you are making an illegal street race and it actually happens in dense traffic and still its not like in Norway but they have to actually prove that the illegal street race seriously endangered multiple people.
So summarizing only in Norway you can be jailed for speeding alone even if its on a totally empty autobahn, oh and its Norway alone who manage to put 100 km/h as limit on most autobahns (some got 110 km/h). As for drunk driving its punishable maybe even more severe in Poland than in Norway and the whole world is punishing drunk driving (some nations got higher limits like Germany and Belgia) and I believe its correct just as punishing drunk flying and any drunk steering of a mechanical device than can become a deadly weapon. But drunk driving has nothing to do with speeding.
As for speeding its all dependent on the car you drive, the weather, the congestion of the road AND your skill. As a pilot you got to know that its not indifferent and it goes the same way for cars. I was told by an instructor that many FOs and Captains do not have the rating anymore for SEP and do not fly at all other than flying with passengers for the airline... so I understand some people do not enjoy so much neither flying, driving or steering but for others its important with a normal law about driving.
To the point: What you are showing on a video are people who are not interested in driving, using mobile phones, driving not on autobahn and doing every possible thing to not care about the driving. They did not even enjoy the driving doing it to show off or because they were bored.... and such people crash and its they alone who should get consequences (if the survive). And that is what happens in the whole world. But Norway got a more socialist politician soul (I got no better explanation) and they go to the core of socialist lawmaking: Punishing innocent people preventive because someone else is unable to use their freedoms in a proper way. That is the core of socialism exactly the core to preventively control the whole population and make everyone suffer because some people actually fail to be free.... instead of punishing only those few people who fail. Its like "see that guy without a proper license crashed doing aerobatics, now we completely forbid it for everyone".
And driving is only the top of the iceberg as for how Norway is different even from Sweden and Denmark, all over the laws you see the urge to forbid things because some few people actually get accidents so everyone must suffer. Like with dogs first they made a list of dangerous dogs that the state believe are dangerous of course they did not include the race that bet a child to death (and that started the whole law) but a lot of other races some that even never have been in Norway. Then they decided to also forbid amstaff because it could look like some of the other forbidden races even if it itself was not dangerous.... and then they "took the cake" by forbidding as the only nation in the world czech wolfdog in addition because it looks like a wolf in the explanation..... and then there are a lot of things even chocolate looking like pipes that are or were forbidden (FrP tried to change some stuff but the socialist majority resist strongly). Its not really important about the dogs but shows the socialist mentality to the core.
And yes in some countries car is classified as a deadly weapon when used to cause deadly harm..... BUT only when causing deadly harm..... no other place on earth punish people preventively for what might have happened and not for what really happened. Its like if someone jailed all men for rape cause of possessing necessary equipment to perform a rape..... its almost that funny but Norway do it for real control peoples lives thinking that for example 100 % of people are alcoholics and treating them that way almost...... I am just amused to watch what will happen when Rødt, SV, MDG start to govern after next election in Norway. Everything gets forbidden probably and jail for everyone except real criminals.
PS. I still wonder why do you keep deleting your previous posts?
So summarizing only in Norway you can be jailed for speeding alone even if its on a totally empty autobahn, oh and its Norway alone who manage to put 100 km/h as limit on most autobahns (some got 110 km/h). As for drunk driving its punishable maybe even more severe in Poland than in Norway and the whole world is punishing drunk driving (some nations got higher limits like Germany and Belgia) and I believe its correct just as punishing drunk flying and any drunk steering of a mechanical device than can become a deadly weapon. But drunk driving has nothing to do with speeding.
As for speeding its all dependent on the car you drive, the weather, the congestion of the road AND your skill. As a pilot you got to know that its not indifferent and it goes the same way for cars. I was told by an instructor that many FOs and Captains do not have the rating anymore for SEP and do not fly at all other than flying with passengers for the airline... so I understand some people do not enjoy so much neither flying, driving or steering but for others its important with a normal law about driving.
To the point: What you are showing on a video are people who are not interested in driving, using mobile phones, driving not on autobahn and doing every possible thing to not care about the driving. They did not even enjoy the driving doing it to show off or because they were bored.... and such people crash and its they alone who should get consequences (if the survive). And that is what happens in the whole world. But Norway got a more socialist politician soul (I got no better explanation) and they go to the core of socialist lawmaking: Punishing innocent people preventive because someone else is unable to use their freedoms in a proper way. That is the core of socialism exactly the core to preventively control the whole population and make everyone suffer because some people actually fail to be free.... instead of punishing only those few people who fail. Its like "see that guy without a proper license crashed doing aerobatics, now we completely forbid it for everyone".
And driving is only the top of the iceberg as for how Norway is different even from Sweden and Denmark, all over the laws you see the urge to forbid things because some few people actually get accidents so everyone must suffer. Like with dogs first they made a list of dangerous dogs that the state believe are dangerous of course they did not include the race that bet a child to death (and that started the whole law) but a lot of other races some that even never have been in Norway. Then they decided to also forbid amstaff because it could look like some of the other forbidden races even if it itself was not dangerous.... and then they "took the cake" by forbidding as the only nation in the world czech wolfdog in addition because it looks like a wolf in the explanation..... and then there are a lot of things even chocolate looking like pipes that are or were forbidden (FrP tried to change some stuff but the socialist majority resist strongly). Its not really important about the dogs but shows the socialist mentality to the core.
And yes in some countries car is classified as a deadly weapon when used to cause deadly harm..... BUT only when causing deadly harm..... no other place on earth punish people preventively for what might have happened and not for what really happened. Its like if someone jailed all men for rape cause of possessing necessary equipment to perform a rape..... its almost that funny but Norway do it for real control peoples lives thinking that for example 100 % of people are alcoholics and treating them that way almost...... I am just amused to watch what will happen when Rødt, SV, MDG start to govern after next election in Norway. Everything gets forbidden probably and jail for everyone except real criminals.
PS. I still wonder why do you keep deleting your previous posts?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@2unlimited: Sadly its impossible to read the rest of the article (I am not buying subscription) where the driver did something else probably than only speeding like for example running from the police that is not only speeding. And actually even in Poland they jailed "frog" for 3 months cause of creating the risk of a land catastrophe after he had a race against the police all around Warszawa while actually proven endangering a lot of people plus he got away and it really pissed the police so they actually used an another paragraph than for speeding because it was 10 other things than speeding alone. But this is not simple speeding on a non congested autobahn or simple stuff like you get jailed for in Norway.
As for SEP well people who enjoy flying do fly SEP for fun or as instructors or even in aerobatics (a proper SEP ofc. ). And dangerous.... well I believe its much more dangerous if you get your elevator stuck than the engine failure in a SEP. I know an instructor who can land on the roof of a hiper market (with light SEP) if needed after engine failure. But it does take skill that is why I am trying to learn as much as possible so the day it happen I am able to cope with it even if there is not a nice grassy field in vicinity and the emergency procedures are not enough for a safe landing. Its up to you how dangerous engine failure is. There are some pilots who will get alive out of it no matter what you fail in their SEP unless the whole aircraft fall apart in mid air. You only live once, life is not about being bored for 100 years and then putting a relatively healthy corpse inside the grave, life is about having fun. And the having fun part is what makes every socialist shake with anger and shout: forbid it!
As for SOP: It is no problem to follow it to the letter. It is there for the safety of 100s of passengers you are carrying and not for you to have fun. Its your job and still its enjoyable more than probably any other job in the world but it is a job where you are at work being responsible for peoples safety and not having fun. A bus driver on autobahn can not do the stuff he can do driving alone in his car its a big difference.
What I talk about is your free time it is what a state like Norway struggle to control, and free time means free. So there you should have certain degree of freedom to enjoy your life and not be forbidden everything because someone else failed to exercise his freedom. You should only be punished for what you do and not for what could happen IF. And that is where Norway is most restrictive in Europe or maybe even in the world its forbidding stuff "over low shoe" no matter if its really dangerous or just their imagination (like with the dogs). And that is one of the reasons I do not thrive in a restrictive nation that wish to control your life in your free time as much as possible.
As for SEP well people who enjoy flying do fly SEP for fun or as instructors or even in aerobatics (a proper SEP ofc. ). And dangerous.... well I believe its much more dangerous if you get your elevator stuck than the engine failure in a SEP. I know an instructor who can land on the roof of a hiper market (with light SEP) if needed after engine failure. But it does take skill that is why I am trying to learn as much as possible so the day it happen I am able to cope with it even if there is not a nice grassy field in vicinity and the emergency procedures are not enough for a safe landing. Its up to you how dangerous engine failure is. There are some pilots who will get alive out of it no matter what you fail in their SEP unless the whole aircraft fall apart in mid air. You only live once, life is not about being bored for 100 years and then putting a relatively healthy corpse inside the grave, life is about having fun. And the having fun part is what makes every socialist shake with anger and shout: forbid it!
As for SOP: It is no problem to follow it to the letter. It is there for the safety of 100s of passengers you are carrying and not for you to have fun. Its your job and still its enjoyable more than probably any other job in the world but it is a job where you are at work being responsible for peoples safety and not having fun. A bus driver on autobahn can not do the stuff he can do driving alone in his car its a big difference.
What I talk about is your free time it is what a state like Norway struggle to control, and free time means free. So there you should have certain degree of freedom to enjoy your life and not be forbidden everything because someone else failed to exercise his freedom. You should only be punished for what you do and not for what could happen IF. And that is where Norway is most restrictive in Europe or maybe even in the world its forbidding stuff "over low shoe" no matter if its really dangerous or just their imagination (like with the dogs). And that is one of the reasons I do not thrive in a restrictive nation that wish to control your life in your free time as much as possible.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@2unlimited: Well there are other things you can drive, steer a boat not only fly. But flying is certainly the most complicated thing where you can always learn and become better even if you got 10 000 hours. And its really enjoyable plus you do not need to be speeding to be more than enough challenged with the task. Oh and there is also other fun stuff in life everything that a socialist does not like almost.... like having a party when you got free time and when you want to and not when the state thinks you should.... or owning an interesting kind of a dog or literally anything that is not straightforward and boring and that the state do not approve of at least in Norway.
As for driving well in Germany its exactly as you wrote on autobahn you decide how fast you can go and you are only responsible if you fail. If you do not fail its completely legal, in other states you can get a fine but no one go as far as Norway to actually jail people for speeding no matter where or how they do it. As for my driving license I had it for 12 years and I am 30 (happily I managed to change my profession and start doing what really interest me before it was too late) oh and its not about how long you got it, my uncle drives a taxi in Poland and he drive so much that he was probably 3x the driver I am when he was 30 and even as he is almost 60 he still love to speed the car some times in his free time just for the pure fun.
As for countries with no rules, no such exist probably and in the US they still do not wish to crush your career if they catch you speeding you get a fine or they can take your driver license but they will certainly not remove your security clearances because you were speeding in a car. In a perfect capitalism there would still be rules but the rules would be that everything is legal so long as you do not harm any other person or their property. So as for driving it would equate to that do what you want but if you cause an accident you will get the consequences as if you did it on purpose. But everyone else who manage to do not cause accidents will not be restricted in their free time by failure of an individual.
As for driving well in Germany its exactly as you wrote on autobahn you decide how fast you can go and you are only responsible if you fail. If you do not fail its completely legal, in other states you can get a fine but no one go as far as Norway to actually jail people for speeding no matter where or how they do it. As for my driving license I had it for 12 years and I am 30 (happily I managed to change my profession and start doing what really interest me before it was too late) oh and its not about how long you got it, my uncle drives a taxi in Poland and he drive so much that he was probably 3x the driver I am when he was 30 and even as he is almost 60 he still love to speed the car some times in his free time just for the pure fun.
As for countries with no rules, no such exist probably and in the US they still do not wish to crush your career if they catch you speeding you get a fine or they can take your driver license but they will certainly not remove your security clearances because you were speeding in a car. In a perfect capitalism there would still be rules but the rules would be that everything is legal so long as you do not harm any other person or their property. So as for driving it would equate to that do what you want but if you cause an accident you will get the consequences as if you did it on purpose. But everyone else who manage to do not cause accidents will not be restricted in their free time by failure of an individual.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@2unlimited: Its a big difference between spending all day and spending some time and I hope I will still enjoy flying in the future just as I still enjoy driving and steering a boat (sadly for boats you can not go beyond D5LA without actually working on a ship commercially).
I am just telling you why I did not like living in Norway and why some other people might also not like it, its not even Sweden or Denmark where people have a lot of more freedom. As for my licenses I started in January 2018 so I am not done yet currently since march I am passing my atpl exams got 8 done and 6 to go so I hope I can be done until June. Then I will do MEP(L), IR/ME, CPL and FI and hopefully be done this year. After that I will look for a spot in the airlines and of course fly as FI. As for parties in Norway you probably did never invite a big party at your house in Norway or you would have issues requiring, carpenter, plumber and perhaps other specialists
but its to each his taste. I prefer parties in the Polish countryside with a fireplace and people I know at least 50 % of rather than a pub or a big party house.
As for autobahn it still is the law in Germany in places where there is free speed that you are not preventively punished if you do not have any accident. And its enough of such autobahn in Germany (almost whole road from Danish border to Polish border with exception for around Berlin and same goes for the road to Belgium and Netherlands). As for other people you have always to consider their safety in your life its not only on the road. But you are not preventively punished for stuff that may happen if it does not happen. And that is the point. Or else someone could say you cannot own a kitchen knife because someone else used it to kill someone.... oh wait thats the law about guns almost in Europe (only USA understands it) that because someone else fail to exercise his freedom you are not allowed to own a gun. And the bad guys still get to own guns since they strangely do not care about the law.... in US for example someone like Breivik would never ever kill that many people cause someone with a gun would have stopped him. And almost all the massacres in USA happen in "gun free zones" where the bad guy is the only one with a gun. Still European laws are livable compared to the Norwegian ones and I just can imagine what will be forbidden and how the law will change in Norway after Rødt, SV and MDG (MDG would forbid flying at all if they could seize power alone but happily for Norwegians AP will probably cool them down) get to govern there after the next election.
I am just telling you why I did not like living in Norway and why some other people might also not like it, its not even Sweden or Denmark where people have a lot of more freedom. As for my licenses I started in January 2018 so I am not done yet currently since march I am passing my atpl exams got 8 done and 6 to go so I hope I can be done until June. Then I will do MEP(L), IR/ME, CPL and FI and hopefully be done this year. After that I will look for a spot in the airlines and of course fly as FI. As for parties in Norway you probably did never invite a big party at your house in Norway or you would have issues requiring, carpenter, plumber and perhaps other specialists
but its to each his taste. I prefer parties in the Polish countryside with a fireplace and people I know at least 50 % of rather than a pub or a big party house.As for autobahn it still is the law in Germany in places where there is free speed that you are not preventively punished if you do not have any accident. And its enough of such autobahn in Germany (almost whole road from Danish border to Polish border with exception for around Berlin and same goes for the road to Belgium and Netherlands). As for other people you have always to consider their safety in your life its not only on the road. But you are not preventively punished for stuff that may happen if it does not happen. And that is the point. Or else someone could say you cannot own a kitchen knife because someone else used it to kill someone.... oh wait thats the law about guns almost in Europe (only USA understands it) that because someone else fail to exercise his freedom you are not allowed to own a gun. And the bad guys still get to own guns since they strangely do not care about the law.... in US for example someone like Breivik would never ever kill that many people cause someone with a gun would have stopped him. And almost all the massacres in USA happen in "gun free zones" where the bad guy is the only one with a gun. Still European laws are livable compared to the Norwegian ones and I just can imagine what will be forbidden and how the law will change in Norway after Rødt, SV and MDG (MDG would forbid flying at all if they could seize power alone but happily for Norwegians AP will probably cool them down) get to govern there after the next election.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@2unlimited: Well I will tell you when I get an airline job how much I wish to fly in my free time. It probably also depends on the job if you get to fly 900 hours or not, or if its a part of the year where you do not fly at all in the airline etc. As for flying in Norway I understand why you are skeptical about single engine. I would too before I become much better at flying be skeptical to fly in Norway in the areas where there are just rocks and mountains and almost nowhere to make an emergency landing (maybe the fjord but with non retractable gear its kind of good luck to not crash badly with forced landing on water). In Poland the environment give you bigger chances of performing a safe emergency landing on a grassy field.
As for the US gun law I will always defend freedom to do as you wish without harming anyone or anyones property. Always no matter that some people abuse it. Its like saying because some men are rapists everyone should get castrated...... its that kind of thing to make everyone suffer for the actions of the few. And the criminals will still not give a damn about the law they will do what they please until they are caught only law abiding citizens will be restricted. And yes the guns were legal in massacres in USA (although not all) BUT the massacres happened in gun free zones like schools where no one had a gun only the bad guy. Because people who abide the law do not bring guns in gun free zones. SO if the guns were illegal the bad guys would just like Breivik get them either way just as a gun free zone does not stop them from entering with a gun.
As for my experience well I like going to shooting ranges in Poland renting a gun and having fun shooting with everything from makarov to rifles. Its fun but not so much that I do it often. Looks like most of the stuff I think is fun is something the socialists wish to forbid
As for the US gun law I will always defend freedom to do as you wish without harming anyone or anyones property. Always no matter that some people abuse it. Its like saying because some men are rapists everyone should get castrated...... its that kind of thing to make everyone suffer for the actions of the few. And the criminals will still not give a damn about the law they will do what they please until they are caught only law abiding citizens will be restricted. And yes the guns were legal in massacres in USA (although not all) BUT the massacres happened in gun free zones like schools where no one had a gun only the bad guy. Because people who abide the law do not bring guns in gun free zones. SO if the guns were illegal the bad guys would just like Breivik get them either way just as a gun free zone does not stop them from entering with a gun.
As for my experience well I like going to shooting ranges in Poland renting a gun and having fun shooting with everything from makarov to rifles. Its fun but not so much that I do it often. Looks like most of the stuff I think is fun is something the socialists wish to forbid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@2unlitmited: I believe the gun crimes are more because of "culture" than the law, imagine there are no gun laws like in the US in Mexico or South Africa and they shoot more people than in the US if you compare per capita. And as for Europe in the future I believe there may be more gun crimes without guns being legal as in US.... imagine in Sweden from all places a kid was killed by a hand grenade (a grenade like in a war) that was tossed as part of some gang war.... something someone could believe could happen in Russia actually happened in Sweden.... so I believe the bad guys will not care about the gun or grenade is legal or not. The point is Europe got less criminals than the US (but the western Europe is working hard to change it) and thats where the big difference come from.
There is always defense of people being free to do as they wish so long they do not harm others or their property. As I said banning something because some few people do not manage to behave and break the law..... its like castrating us all because some men rape.... totally wrong to punish everyone for the actions of some few criminal people.
There is always defense of people being free to do as they wish so long they do not harm others or their property. As I said banning something because some few people do not manage to behave and break the law..... its like castrating us all because some men rape.... totally wrong to punish everyone for the actions of some few criminal people.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Poland
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@2unlimited: Its impossible that there will be no guns because they are simple to produce so if there were no guns the criminals would "rule" with their home produced guns..... as for criminals I do not know what they prefer but in Sweden it looks like they totally do not care about the police for example.
An for the next 10 things or 100 things I could say, yes of course we should legalize even the things we do not like personally. Freedom is not about making everything we personally like legal and then forbid everything we personally do not like, just like freedom of speech is not freedom to say the things we believe and forbid those that make "our blood boil". I can be the strictest opponent to communists or national socialists but I do still believe they should have freedom of speech to say whatever they wish.... so long as they do not harm other people and their property. So since we already legalized alcohol and tobacco, I believe it would make the whole thing a lot tidier and under control to legalize all similar stuff. Of course it should be like with alcohol forbidden to be under influence while driving, steering or flying but why give the money to mafia and a black market that sell the stuff to children. At a shop at least they have to be 18 to buy it and people will know who is buying. And even if it does not bother me personally I see the point that people being jailed for growing a natural plant at home is just weird no matter if it does not matter for me personally.
You know.... first they take the freedom from someone far away, next day they come for your neighbor.... and tomorrow they can come for you and your freedoms. So we should not tolerate so well stuff that we do not care about being illegal, because tomorrow the state can make stuff we like personally, illegal just like flying if for example MDG were free to govern alone without AP. Happily even for Norway AP will probably stop the most crazy stuff Rødt, SV and MDG wish to plague people with after the next election.
An for the next 10 things or 100 things I could say, yes of course we should legalize even the things we do not like personally. Freedom is not about making everything we personally like legal and then forbid everything we personally do not like, just like freedom of speech is not freedom to say the things we believe and forbid those that make "our blood boil". I can be the strictest opponent to communists or national socialists but I do still believe they should have freedom of speech to say whatever they wish.... so long as they do not harm other people and their property. So since we already legalized alcohol and tobacco, I believe it would make the whole thing a lot tidier and under control to legalize all similar stuff. Of course it should be like with alcohol forbidden to be under influence while driving, steering or flying but why give the money to mafia and a black market that sell the stuff to children. At a shop at least they have to be 18 to buy it and people will know who is buying. And even if it does not bother me personally I see the point that people being jailed for growing a natural plant at home is just weird no matter if it does not matter for me personally.
You know.... first they take the freedom from someone far away, next day they come for your neighbor.... and tomorrow they can come for you and your freedoms. So we should not tolerate so well stuff that we do not care about being illegal, because tomorrow the state can make stuff we like personally, illegal just like flying if for example MDG were free to govern alone without AP. Happily even for Norway AP will probably stop the most crazy stuff Rødt, SV and MDG wish to plague people with after the next election.