Flybe
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 28
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From: atop a high mountain.
FlyBE is an interesting company to me. They are the epitome of a regional small airline in what they do and with what they do they can't make money.
Other larger airlines hide their problems with regional routes or justify the regional routes being unprofitable by saying they feed in to their larger network.
I think FlyBE need 100 seater turboprops to make the model work and 90 to 100 seater turboprops don't exist.
Q400 can supposedly fit 90 at a 28" pitch but you will usually be paying a premium to fly instead of bus, car, train so you wouldn't tolerate a 28" pitch to fly from Scotland to London or whereever.
Other larger airlines hide their problems with regional routes or justify the regional routes being unprofitable by saying they feed in to their larger network.
I think FlyBE need 100 seater turboprops to make the model work and 90 to 100 seater turboprops don't exist.
Q400 can supposedly fit 90 at a 28" pitch but you will usually be paying a premium to fly instead of bus, car, train so you wouldn't tolerate a 28" pitch to fly from Scotland to London or whereever.
Joined: Apr 2012
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 402
Likes: 18
From: UK
If they think the "Beast from the East". is bad then they should wait till HS2 becomes operational. When the rail journey time is 3 hours or less, people tend to prefer the train, indeed Eurostar took a huge share of the London-Paris/Brussels air travel market. If the new Azumas on the East Coast are cleared for 140mph running (and the conventional signalling in place is designed to enable that), then anything London-Leeds/Newcastle/Edinburgh will lose out to rail.
A lot of domestic air travel will be hit but the other operators are much less dependent on domestic routes.
Personally, unless Flybe adopts a change of strategy to avoid competing with rail, I think they'll really struggle in the long-term.
A lot of domestic air travel will be hit but the other operators are much less dependent on domestic routes.
Personally, unless Flybe adopts a change of strategy to avoid competing with rail, I think they'll really struggle in the long-term.
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 321
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From: UK
Quite frankly, airsouthwest, that response shows how LITTLE you know. Have you actually read the latest financial reports? I don't know where you get this notion from that you can get 2 x A319s for the price of the lease on the 195, I also don't get where you get the idea from that Christine wants to replace all the Q400s with ATRs. FAS is the only part that makes a guaranteed income? Nonsense, nothing is guaranteed, you also need to learn the difference between income, cash flow, added value, revenue & EBITDAR.
If you've read the reports (which you clearly haven't) you'll see that the business is performing very well, what isn't performing very well are the costs, and it is these costs that are hurting at the moment. The cost base is too high.
I think your problem is you are a typical employee who listens to Galley FM rumour but behind all that there's no real business brain behind the ears, because let's face it, if those things you listed were factually correct (but they're not) then any monkey could run an airline.
If you've read the reports (which you clearly haven't) you'll see that the business is performing very well, what isn't performing very well are the costs, and it is these costs that are hurting at the moment. The cost base is too high.
I think your problem is you are a typical employee who listens to Galley FM rumour but behind all that there's no real business brain behind the ears, because let's face it, if those things you listed were factually correct (but they're not) then any monkey could run an airline.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Joined: Mar 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 2,325
Likes: 432
From: In your head.
Actually he’s not far off regarding the leases. The 195 were costing 180k a month each whilst at the same time you could get an A320 for about 110k. A 319 would be even cheaper, no doubt.
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
From: atop a high mountain.
I don't see why they don't do like the rest of the airline world and just order a new fleet of Q400 on lease reducing maintenance costs and unexpected downtime costs for unreliable hardware.
Lease costs are low because the lease company retains title and can repo the plane when/if the leasee defaults. They're not even in some remote location where it isn't easy to repo a plane if need be.
They must be tied up in knots with their existing lease agreements.
Lease costs are low because the lease company retains title and can repo the plane when/if the leasee defaults. They're not even in some remote location where it isn't easy to repo a plane if need be.
They must be tied up in knots with their existing lease agreements.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Joined: Mar 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 2,325
Likes: 432
From: In your head.
Didn’t think I’d need to spoon feed you but a 319 costs roughly two thirds of a 320. Do the maths as they say. I’ll even round it up to 120 for a 320 making a 319 about 80.
80 x 2 = 2 x 319 which = less than one 195.
80 x 2 = 2 x 319 which = less than one 195.
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 321
Likes: 0
From: UK
Well, Chesty, current prices or the price of an A319 back in 2005? Either way where do you get your figures from? Do you ACTUALLY know what the lease costs were or are you as guilty as he is spouting Galley FM and nonsense? Either way, the company knows all about the high lease costs of the 195s, it's not a secret, so when he professes he knows how to fix the company but Flybe doesn't he's talking bollocks.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Joined: Mar 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 2,325
Likes: 432
From: In your head.
Prices at the time the Embraer lease was “negotiated”. I know.
I’m not commenting on his ability fix Flybe just informing you that, in this instance, he is correct and it is you who is factually wrong.
I’m sure the regular flow of management in and out of Flybe do know how to fix the company but they don’t. Why is that?
I’m not commenting on his ability fix Flybe just informing you that, in this instance, he is correct and it is you who is factually wrong.
I’m sure the regular flow of management in and out of Flybe do know how to fix the company but they don’t. Why is that?
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
From: France
I agree about the fact, lot of cost are link to really bad bad deal for all aircraft lease ...
Management must be tied with it, otherwise they would had fixed it already ...
All 195 will leave in 2019.
But I suspect the dash deal are crap as well
Management must be tied with it, otherwise they would had fixed it already ...
All 195 will leave in 2019.
But I suspect the dash deal are crap as well
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
From: on the dark side of the moon!
To help settle this ego contest on leasing rates, here are some figures from 2015, then updated in 2017.
As always with figures, you can make them say what suites you, and one could argue that you could get 2 319s for the price of a 190/195, but certainly old knackered frames with questionnable reliability and reduced seating layout. Then from a commercial/product point of view...why would you?
Conversly, you can get 2 old 190/195s for the price of a newest 320.
Interestingly, ATRs can be quite expensive too.
http://www.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/forum/viewtopic.php?t=587137
Aircraft Values, And Lease Pricing - Spring 2017 - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As always with figures, you can make them say what suites you, and one could argue that you could get 2 319s for the price of a 190/195, but certainly old knackered frames with questionnable reliability and reduced seating layout. Then from a commercial/product point of view...why would you?
Conversly, you can get 2 old 190/195s for the price of a newest 320.
Interestingly, ATRs can be quite expensive too.
http://www.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/forum/viewtopic.php?t=587137
Aircraft Values, And Lease Pricing - Spring 2017 - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gender Faculty Specialist
Joined: Mar 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: In your head.
Ego contest. Good one.
No E195 on your list, ergo, irrelevant. It’s also from 2015/2017. The Embraer deal was done in 2004/5, ergo, irrelevant. Not much certainty there.
Thanks for playing.
No E195 on your list, ergo, irrelevant. It’s also from 2015/2017. The Embraer deal was done in 2004/5, ergo, irrelevant. Not much certainty there.
Thanks for playing.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Joined: Mar 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 2,325
Likes: 432
From: In your head.
Of course. I guess you think you’ll pay the same. Why don’t you go and find some figures from 2004/5. You know, just coz you seem to be concerned about facts.
I do thanks. Half the hours for 150% of the money. Although I did my first 4 sector day for 5 years last month, that was a bit of a struggle but it was good to relive the old days.
I do thanks. Half the hours for 150% of the money. Although I did my first 4 sector day for 5 years last month, that was a bit of a struggle but it was good to relive the old days.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
From: on the dark side of the moon!
Back in 2004/2005 the 319 was in very high demand with easyjet's first mega order (100 firm). Even with the eJet being the new shinny kid on the regional block at that time, I very much doubt you could get 2 airbuses for the price of a 195.
If this is your claim, well, go and prove it then.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Joined: Mar 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 2,325
Likes: 432
From: In your head.
Ringy old chap I knew back then what they were, if I didn't then I wouldn’t be posting. I don’t need to go and find them again now nor do I need to prove what they were to you.
Don’t like it? Tough.
Don’t like it? Tough.
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,048
Likes: 2
From: United States
I wouldn’t use easyJet’s deal as a comparator . Stelios did a fantastic deal back then, no one else was buying aircraft.
There’s no way that an outfit the size of Flybe could or ever will be able to do deals at the rates that Easyjet can.
Easyjet fuel bill for one week in August is more than Flybe’s market Cap’
Different world.
There’s no way that an outfit the size of Flybe could or ever will be able to do deals at the rates that Easyjet can.
Easyjet fuel bill for one week in August is more than Flybe’s market Cap’
Different world.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
From: on the dark side of the moon!
When it comes to hot air, I'd rather go somewhere warm.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
From: on the dark side of the moon!
I wouldn’t use easyJet’s deal as a comparator . Stelios did a fantastic deal back then, no one else was buying aircraft.
There’s no way that an outfit the size of Flybe could or ever will be able to do deals at the rates that Easyjet can.
Easyjet fuel bill for one week in August is more than Flybe’s market Cap’
Different world.
There’s no way that an outfit the size of Flybe could or ever will be able to do deals at the rates that Easyjet can.
Easyjet fuel bill for one week in August is more than Flybe’s market Cap’
Different world.
I'm just sayng that back in those days, an A319 rate would have been fairly high due its high demand on the market, hence suggesting one could have had 2 319s for a price of one eJet is a very audacious claim, especially without figures to support it.
There's a concensus that the eJet deal was bad and company fleet policy has confirmed this for a few years now, I'm just reacting to some cuckooland types of "facts".
Gender Faculty Specialist
Joined: Mar 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: In your head.
Of course they’re unsubstantiated. The figures are from nearly 15 years ago. Do you think I wrote them down in my diary just in case you didn’t believe me years later?! However, that doesn’t change the facts, even if you don’t believe them.
Unless, of course, you did find the figures you want from 2004/5 to prove otherwise.
Unless, of course, you did find the figures you want from 2004/5 to prove otherwise.
