Norwegian B787 - LGW based
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I guess I would very much like answers to your questions as well as mine :-) and preferably from pilots actually working at Norwegian Long Haul.
My reason for coming back are family related and I know it won't be ideal. But then not being with my family is not ideal either. I'm weighing the 2 that's all.
If you have answers to some of your or my questions pls don't hesitate :-)
My reason for coming back are family related and I know it won't be ideal. But then not being with my family is not ideal either. I'm weighing the 2 that's all.
If you have answers to some of your or my questions pls don't hesitate :-)
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Fratemate:
Not only have you failed (spectacularly) in your attempt to moderate and censor this thread, you conveniently overlooked the title of this forum, copied and pasted below for your review:
Terms and Endearment
The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.
Like the majority of my detractors, you are unwilling or unable to address the content of my posts, entirely applicable to the forum prerequisites above. Sadly, you can only provide witless responses or invent false criticism, such as my necessarily using facts “copied and pasted” from supporting official publications and media reports.
My recent post references Norwegian’s Spanish and US based cabin crews rightly seeking to obtain a Collective Labor Agreement directly with a Norwegian airline, rather than a distant Norwegian Resource Group, fractionally owned, staffing agency, OSM:
http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/norw...mulig/66770816
Perhaps you can review the International Labor Organization Guide to the Employment Relationship in Europe and provide a reason why Norwegian’s agency employed, LGW based pilots, some represented by BALPA, have bizarrely chosen to accept a collective labor agreement with a staffing agency, despite their “employment relationship” meeting the legal criteria for a CLA and union representation directly with the Norwegian airline:
“In the United Kingdom, a mixed approach comprising statutes, regulations and case law is used to meet the challenge of new types of work [atypical employment]. In some cases judges have demonstrated a degree of judicial creativity to imply a contract of employment between, for example, a user undertaking and a temporary worker. For instance, in Dacas v. Brook St Bureau [2004] ICR 1437,the court found that “as a general (but not invariable) rule for employment law purposes a temp supplied by an employment agency to an end-user client [a Norwegian airline] will be an employee of the client and will be neither self employed nor an employee of the agency itself”.
http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/pub...cms_209280.pdf
Norwegian declares on its website that it complies (allegedly) with ILO conventions. There should be no issue for Norwegian to accept the direct employment criteria detailed in the ILO Guide above:
http://www.norwegian.com/uk/about/co...y/human-worth/
Norwegian’s agency employed pilots should follow the lead of the flight attendants and seek a CLA and union representation directly with the Norwegian airline.
BALPA continues to deposit pilot union dues for representation to a staffing agency.
This topic is much better now I've 'ignored' Marvelman and Direct Bondi but that does mean I have to log in, instead of just lurking. It's a shame there's no moderator to rid this thread of extraneous nonsense and irrelevant chest pounding from copy and paste 'experts'.
Terms and Endearment
The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.
Like the majority of my detractors, you are unwilling or unable to address the content of my posts, entirely applicable to the forum prerequisites above. Sadly, you can only provide witless responses or invent false criticism, such as my necessarily using facts “copied and pasted” from supporting official publications and media reports.
My recent post references Norwegian’s Spanish and US based cabin crews rightly seeking to obtain a Collective Labor Agreement directly with a Norwegian airline, rather than a distant Norwegian Resource Group, fractionally owned, staffing agency, OSM:
http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/norw...mulig/66770816
Perhaps you can review the International Labor Organization Guide to the Employment Relationship in Europe and provide a reason why Norwegian’s agency employed, LGW based pilots, some represented by BALPA, have bizarrely chosen to accept a collective labor agreement with a staffing agency, despite their “employment relationship” meeting the legal criteria for a CLA and union representation directly with the Norwegian airline:
“In the United Kingdom, a mixed approach comprising statutes, regulations and case law is used to meet the challenge of new types of work [atypical employment]. In some cases judges have demonstrated a degree of judicial creativity to imply a contract of employment between, for example, a user undertaking and a temporary worker. For instance, in Dacas v. Brook St Bureau [2004] ICR 1437,the court found that “as a general (but not invariable) rule for employment law purposes a temp supplied by an employment agency to an end-user client [a Norwegian airline] will be an employee of the client and will be neither self employed nor an employee of the agency itself”.
http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/pub...cms_209280.pdf
Norwegian declares on its website that it complies (allegedly) with ILO conventions. There should be no issue for Norwegian to accept the direct employment criteria detailed in the ILO Guide above:
http://www.norwegian.com/uk/about/co...y/human-worth/
Norwegian’s agency employed pilots should follow the lead of the flight attendants and seek a CLA and union representation directly with the Norwegian airline.
BALPA continues to deposit pilot union dues for representation to a staffing agency.
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Inkjet;
I had no idea you would respond when I stated my detractors are unwilling or unable to address the content of my posts. Please add; “or too ignorant” to the aforementioned traits.
Why do you think Norwegian refused to change the roster of two union representatives to allow them to attend a collective bargaining meeting with the airline? - Link:
http://cabinassociation.org/wp-conte...est-Letter.pdf
Is it possible Bjorn Kjos and his parent airline only welcomes union representation when they are not party to any agreement? – as with Norwegian’s LGW based pilots.
I had no idea you would respond when I stated my detractors are unwilling or unable to address the content of my posts. Please add; “or too ignorant” to the aforementioned traits.
Why do you think Norwegian refused to change the roster of two union representatives to allow them to attend a collective bargaining meeting with the airline? - Link:
http://cabinassociation.org/wp-conte...est-Letter.pdf
Is it possible Bjorn Kjos and his parent airline only welcomes union representation when they are not party to any agreement? – as with Norwegian’s LGW based pilots.
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Bondi the reason no one responds is that you have lost all objectivity in your 'red mist' anger against Norwegian, as the company has continued to grow, win awards, modify its labour practices, pay its social and employment taxes you continue to drive down a peninsular screaming from the roof tops about how bad they are.
I can well understand that some of our American friends feel threatened by Norwegians growth (but its a fraction of the Gulf states into the US) and complain about in the main misleading reports of labor practices suggesting that all the crews are on doggy contracts based out of Bangkok, simply not true..but we have listened to and read your output of cut and paste for well over two years now.
In December you relished gleefully that Trump would stop Norwegian dead in its tracks, by revoking NAI DoT approval, without acknowledging that even if he were to do so it would not stop Norwegian flying to the US as it has done since introducing the Dream-liner.
Your childish Kool-aid and Rock ape comments only serve to further detract from your credibility.
Sully waanbes on the steps of congress seeking protection having backed the wrong nag (Hillary) is just so amusing.
No one pretends that working for/on behalf/through an agency call it what you like is perfect, but its much better than the ** semi self employed Irish Ltd company scheme or the P2Fly of Germania model or Wizz air pay rates, or Eurowings 330 rates and many other across Europe let alone the far East
I can well understand that some of our American friends feel threatened by Norwegians growth (but its a fraction of the Gulf states into the US) and complain about in the main misleading reports of labor practices suggesting that all the crews are on doggy contracts based out of Bangkok, simply not true..but we have listened to and read your output of cut and paste for well over two years now.
In December you relished gleefully that Trump would stop Norwegian dead in its tracks, by revoking NAI DoT approval, without acknowledging that even if he were to do so it would not stop Norwegian flying to the US as it has done since introducing the Dream-liner.
Your childish Kool-aid and Rock ape comments only serve to further detract from your credibility.
Sully waanbes on the steps of congress seeking protection having backed the wrong nag (Hillary) is just so amusing.
No one pretends that working for/on behalf/through an agency call it what you like is perfect, but its much better than the ** semi self employed Irish Ltd company scheme or the P2Fly of Germania model or Wizz air pay rates, or Eurowings 330 rates and many other across Europe let alone the far East
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Inkjet;
Your lack of a direct response to the content of any of my posts may be categorized as; 1. Unable 2. Unwilling 3. Too ignorant.
Based on your comment in post #945:
I’m going with option 3.
Still curious why Norwegian’s LGW based pilots sought a Collective Labor Agreement with a staffing agency when their “employment relationship” meets all the legal criteria for a CLA directly with the Norwegian airline, particularly when BALPA and its resources could have pursued the matter:
http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/pub...cms_209280.pdf
Here’s what the Norwegian Pilot Group thinks about OSM and “modified labor practices” - copied and pasted from their facebook page:
“Whilst we welcome his [CEO, Espen Hoiby] admission of many management failings since this project was started, we do not share his optimism for the future. In our opinion, OSM Aviation has already inflicted damage upon the reputation and finances of our company and Norwegian would be improved by disassociation with a company who's agenda seems to be focused elsewhere”
https://www.facebook.com/norwegianpi...98607800149526
http://cabinassociation.org/wp-conte...est-Letter.pdf
Your lack of a direct response to the content of any of my posts may be categorized as; 1. Unable 2. Unwilling 3. Too ignorant.
Based on your comment in post #945:
sell your children, rape your wife, hang your mother??
Still curious why Norwegian’s LGW based pilots sought a Collective Labor Agreement with a staffing agency when their “employment relationship” meets all the legal criteria for a CLA directly with the Norwegian airline, particularly when BALPA and its resources could have pursued the matter:
http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/pub...cms_209280.pdf
Here’s what the Norwegian Pilot Group thinks about OSM and “modified labor practices” - copied and pasted from their facebook page:
“Whilst we welcome his [CEO, Espen Hoiby] admission of many management failings since this project was started, we do not share his optimism for the future. In our opinion, OSM Aviation has already inflicted damage upon the reputation and finances of our company and Norwegian would be improved by disassociation with a company who's agenda seems to be focused elsewhere”
https://www.facebook.com/norwegianpi...98607800149526
http://cabinassociation.org/wp-conte...est-Letter.pdf
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I'd probably go with option 3 also...
Thing is, most English folk are fairly pragmatic, BALPA is recognised by OSM, there is a functioning crew council that meets with the AOC holder on a regular basis to resolve issues, thus far they have agreed 3 year pay deal, a pension scheme with a employer contribution of 5%, a private medical insurance with BUPA, sector pay for positioning flights, duty pay for sim sit in duties, changes to the quality and location of hotels.
Now of course we could have engaged in all out conflict, but whats the point ? what would it achieve? your fixation of employment with Norwegian is irrational, you seem to believe that at a flick of a switch our contract could be terminated, well yes with 3 months notice that is correct, but that is true of any company and why would an airline that is desperate to recruit new pilots want to randomly sack 1 or more of them? your argument just doesn't make sense.
You have dedicated your life to cutting and pasting abstract articles about employment practices within Norwegian which frankly no one else seems to care about.
It is their train set and they choose how this wish to run it, so far you have suggested economic meltdown, air safety issue, false employment, non compliance with tax laws, tried your level best to support the american airlines and pilots in its attempt to deny DoT approval all to no avail , you have failed in everything and every point you've tried to make.
Perhaps if you had just got on with your job as a pilot instead of behaving like a teapot sprouting forth froth, you wouldn't feel so bitter and twisted.
Thing is, most English folk are fairly pragmatic, BALPA is recognised by OSM, there is a functioning crew council that meets with the AOC holder on a regular basis to resolve issues, thus far they have agreed 3 year pay deal, a pension scheme with a employer contribution of 5%, a private medical insurance with BUPA, sector pay for positioning flights, duty pay for sim sit in duties, changes to the quality and location of hotels.
Now of course we could have engaged in all out conflict, but whats the point ? what would it achieve? your fixation of employment with Norwegian is irrational, you seem to believe that at a flick of a switch our contract could be terminated, well yes with 3 months notice that is correct, but that is true of any company and why would an airline that is desperate to recruit new pilots want to randomly sack 1 or more of them? your argument just doesn't make sense.
You have dedicated your life to cutting and pasting abstract articles about employment practices within Norwegian which frankly no one else seems to care about.
It is their train set and they choose how this wish to run it, so far you have suggested economic meltdown, air safety issue, false employment, non compliance with tax laws, tried your level best to support the american airlines and pilots in its attempt to deny DoT approval all to no avail , you have failed in everything and every point you've tried to make.
Perhaps if you had just got on with your job as a pilot instead of behaving like a teapot sprouting forth froth, you wouldn't feel so bitter and twisted.
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So can someone actually answer the question, what is the OSM salary for a LGW based FO, SFO and Captain? I would like base anual salary plus details of any flight pay or duty pay.
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Enzo999;
Hopefully, someone can provide those details for you. But why is your prospective employer, Orient Ship Management, refusing to answer your questions?
"OSM will answer all your queries relating to the contract, employment and training cost bond” - [email protected]
You may read details in my posts that OSM will not provide you. Good luck.
Inkjet;
In keeping with the modus operandi of the Norwegian regime, you dedicate your posts to making grossly misleading statements regarding the precarious employment relationship with OSM and the guaranteed “unemployment” relationship with the respective Norwegian airline.
What does this recognition give you with any Norwegian airline? Answer: Nothing.
Norwegian’s LGW based pilots have neither a Collective Labor Agreement nor union recognition, including a token gesture Crew Council, with which Bjorn Kjos and his parent airline must recognize and comply. Any consideration given by the airline to the contract terms and conditions between OSM and their employees, including a purported seniority list, is entirely at the whim of the airline’s incompetent management. Pilots are rented from OSM by the respective Norwegian airline to provide a service and may be retuned to OSM at will.
Norwegian’s LGW based pilots DO NOT have a 3-month notice period with any Norwegian airline. The notice period is with the staffing agency employer, OSM.
So yes, at the “flick of a switch” any of Norwegian’s LGW based pilots may be returned to their employer, OSM, without notice, reason or recourse. Moreover, OSM may be indemnified from any obligation to find their employee(s) alternative work based on any action by their client airline, Norwegian. There may be no notice period, or payment in-lieu-of notice, whatsoever. Read the contract!
These fragile employment circumstances create a job security fear culture, as detailed in publicized safety related incidents surrounding Norwegian.
It would achieve employment law protections and compliance, additional labor rights and labor principles, a CLA and union representation DIRECTLY with the Norwegian airline. A shelf stacker employed by a UK supermarket has more employment rights than a LGW based, 787 or 737 pilot flying for Norwegian.
The UK is a signatory to International Labor Organization conventions. The ILO Guide to the Employment Relationship in Europe clearly indicates all legal criteria is met to permit Norwegian’s LGW based pilots to have union representation and a CLA directly with the respective Norwegian airline. Given that Bjorn Kjos declares he complies with ILO conventions, there should be no “all out conflict” in securing the aforementioned objectives:
“We place great importance on ensuring compliance with employee’s basic human rights as outlined in the International Labor Organization’s core conventions” - Link:
http://www.norwegian.com/uk/about/co...y/human-worth/
The next time LGW based pilots pay their union dues to BALPA for representation to OSM staffing agency, I suggest they include the ILO Guide to the Employment Relationship in Europe below, and ask BALPA to explain why they are not representing them directly to the Norwegian airline - Link:
http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/pub...cms_209280.pdf
The US and Spanish based flight attendants are pursuing union representation directly with the respective Norwegian airline. Why?
Hopefully, someone can provide those details for you. But why is your prospective employer, Orient Ship Management, refusing to answer your questions?
"OSM will answer all your queries relating to the contract, employment and training cost bond” - [email protected]
You may read details in my posts that OSM will not provide you. Good luck.
Inkjet;
In keeping with the modus operandi of the Norwegian regime, you dedicate your posts to making grossly misleading statements regarding the precarious employment relationship with OSM and the guaranteed “unemployment” relationship with the respective Norwegian airline.
BALPA is recognized by OSM
Norwegian’s LGW based pilots have neither a Collective Labor Agreement nor union recognition, including a token gesture Crew Council, with which Bjorn Kjos and his parent airline must recognize and comply. Any consideration given by the airline to the contract terms and conditions between OSM and their employees, including a purported seniority list, is entirely at the whim of the airline’s incompetent management. Pilots are rented from OSM by the respective Norwegian airline to provide a service and may be retuned to OSM at will.
you seem to believe that at a flick of a switch our contract could be terminated, well yes with 3 months notice that is correct
So yes, at the “flick of a switch” any of Norwegian’s LGW based pilots may be returned to their employer, OSM, without notice, reason or recourse. Moreover, OSM may be indemnified from any obligation to find their employee(s) alternative work based on any action by their client airline, Norwegian. There may be no notice period, or payment in-lieu-of notice, whatsoever. Read the contract!
These fragile employment circumstances create a job security fear culture, as detailed in publicized safety related incidents surrounding Norwegian.
Now of course we could have engaged in all out conflict, but what’s the point? what would it achieve?
The UK is a signatory to International Labor Organization conventions. The ILO Guide to the Employment Relationship in Europe clearly indicates all legal criteria is met to permit Norwegian’s LGW based pilots to have union representation and a CLA directly with the respective Norwegian airline. Given that Bjorn Kjos declares he complies with ILO conventions, there should be no “all out conflict” in securing the aforementioned objectives:
“We place great importance on ensuring compliance with employee’s basic human rights as outlined in the International Labor Organization’s core conventions” - Link:
http://www.norwegian.com/uk/about/co...y/human-worth/
The next time LGW based pilots pay their union dues to BALPA for representation to OSM staffing agency, I suggest they include the ILO Guide to the Employment Relationship in Europe below, and ask BALPA to explain why they are not representing them directly to the Norwegian airline - Link:
http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/pub...cms_209280.pdf
The US and Spanish based flight attendants are pursuing union representation directly with the respective Norwegian airline. Why?
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Having been a member of both BALPA and the IPA i would loose no sleep in NOT HAVING any union representation. And as for Trump overturning the DOT decision...not a cats chance in hell .. Looking at the package offered by NAS, about 10000 euro a month, its not the best, but its surely not the worst..as long as the pay cheque arrives on time, to be honest, who cares where it comes from..
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I have no intestest in working for OSM but I am interested in what the pay is, this thread is 49 pages long and not once has anyone given exact salary details. Lots of arguing but no actual details, how hard is it to say what the salary is?
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Different tax codes will result in different incomes, however, based on Captain salary with per diem and 60 block hrs it works out £5925 after tax and FO again 60 block hours £3957 after tax for non-married UK tax payer. Plus or minus say £100 for married allowances.
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As Bondi says
So yes, at the “flick of a switch” any of Norwegian’s LGW based pilots may be returned to their employer, OSM, without notice, reason or recourse. Moreover, OSM may be indemnified from any obligation to find their employee(s) alternative work based on any action by their client airline, Norwegian. There may be no notice period, or payment in-lieu-of notice, whatsoever. Read the contract!
This applies to any OSM employee in any base (ask me how I know
) at least until the Norwegian fish squirming on the hook is finally forced to accept a proper CLA in Spanish bases.
Not interested in anything with a Red Nose these days, but I find the figures quoted by Avenger shockingly underwhelming for a wide body Capt position.
Even 737 Capts in EuroBases were netting €7000 a month without spending weeks away from home in 3rd rate hotels , with jet lag etc as the cherry on the top.
So yes, at the “flick of a switch” any of Norwegian’s LGW based pilots may be returned to their employer, OSM, without notice, reason or recourse. Moreover, OSM may be indemnified from any obligation to find their employee(s) alternative work based on any action by their client airline, Norwegian. There may be no notice period, or payment in-lieu-of notice, whatsoever. Read the contract!
This applies to any OSM employee in any base (ask me how I know
) at least until the Norwegian fish squirming on the hook is finally forced to accept a proper CLA in Spanish bases.Not interested in anything with a Red Nose these days, but I find the figures quoted by Avenger shockingly underwhelming for a wide body Capt position.
Even 737 Capts in EuroBases were netting €7000 a month without spending weeks away from home in 3rd rate hotels , with jet lag etc as the cherry on the top.
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So what is the anual salary? Not monthly net figures! It's an easy question BA year one salary is £55,150 plus £10 per hour flight pay plus £3.25 duty pay. Everyone keeps defending Norwegians terms and conditions but Nobody will give a straight answer as to what they actually are and I don't understand why!
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Enzo, why don't you just look at the PPJN site, the figures are updated and accurate. The Uk tax regime is dependant on earnings. Its easy to work out based on average 60 hours, 70 hours etc etc. Take the month salary and multiply by 12 ( twelve) to get an annual salary.. Its an "easy answer"
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Yep Dutch, is looking that way..
Release #: 17.01
Date: January 03, 2017
ALPA to DOT: Deny Norwegian UK Application Now
WASHINGTON—In a filing today with the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT), the Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l (ALPA) and other labor organizations did not oppose a Norwegian Air UK (NAUK) request for expedited processing of its application to fly to and from the United States, but the union continued to maintain that the DOT must reject the application because it fails to explain how the airline’s crews will be employed or how its business model will affect U.S. jobs.
Looks like NLH by committing to use US Pilots and Europeans has snuffed the candle on ALPA and all the " reasonable objections" have been removed. All this nonsense on labour practice etc etc is of no interest to the decision makers at DOT, these are " local issues" and a playground spat.
Release #: 17.01
Date: January 03, 2017
ALPA to DOT: Deny Norwegian UK Application Now
WASHINGTON—In a filing today with the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT), the Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l (ALPA) and other labor organizations did not oppose a Norwegian Air UK (NAUK) request for expedited processing of its application to fly to and from the United States, but the union continued to maintain that the DOT must reject the application because it fails to explain how the airline’s crews will be employed or how its business model will affect U.S. jobs.
Looks like NLH by committing to use US Pilots and Europeans has snuffed the candle on ALPA and all the " reasonable objections" have been removed. All this nonsense on labour practice etc etc is of no interest to the decision makers at DOT, these are " local issues" and a playground spat.
Last edited by Avenger; 1st Feb 2017 at 10:04.