View Poll Results: NIGELS. Happy with things?
Yes. I\'m a happy bunny.
29
18.13%
No. Action NOW.
131
81.88%
Voters: 160. This poll is closed
Enough!!!!!!!!!!!
Join Date: May 2002
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Here Here!!
Well Said Hand Solo, Airlines around the world have marked flight crews as a target to pin their financial misconducts on. As you have suggested there are many other areas within an airline that require attention. That would , if constructively and efficently managed, bring tremendous cost savings.
As i have said on my most recent posts, we as professionals are more valuable then any other employee. This is not because i have contempt for any other group within the airline. My statement reflects the training and skill required by flight crews to achieve the position within the airline. This is reflected by the interview process that BA possess. Pilots go through a 4 to 5 day screening process, i believe no other group within the airline comes anywhere near to that sort of interview process. Therefore you are, we are, a vital professional group in the airline and should be treated as such.
As i have said on my most recent posts, we as professionals are more valuable then any other employee. This is not because i have contempt for any other group within the airline. My statement reflects the training and skill required by flight crews to achieve the position within the airline. This is reflected by the interview process that BA possess. Pilots go through a 4 to 5 day screening process, i believe no other group within the airline comes anywhere near to that sort of interview process. Therefore you are, we are, a vital professional group in the airline and should be treated as such.
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Agree with Fat Tony and Hand Solo. Always thought you would get scales of economy with a large operation. How naive am I? It seems the more aircraft you have the higher employee per aicraft ratio becomes at BA. And that quite simply is one of the major problems.
If you are not necessary or do not have a positive impact on the bottom line you shouldn't be there! I think everyone should re-interviewed for their job and justify their postion. It must come from the top down though, but as one skipper I flew with said...."that Rod Eddington....he's like a light house in the desert".....????? "NO F@#*ing use to anyone!!!"
Will be interesting to see what happens to the pay review in the coming months. If BALPA don't sort it I for one will be giving myself a 1% pay rise.
Interesting fact about MT......It would be cheaper to limo the crew to the aircraft than use the '70's' working practices of MT! Amazing how narky they get when you want to travel on the c/c bus when the flight crew bus hasn't arrived. SORT IT OUT!!!!
If you are not necessary or do not have a positive impact on the bottom line you shouldn't be there! I think everyone should re-interviewed for their job and justify their postion. It must come from the top down though, but as one skipper I flew with said...."that Rod Eddington....he's like a light house in the desert".....????? "NO F@#*ing use to anyone!!!"
Will be interesting to see what happens to the pay review in the coming months. If BALPA don't sort it I for one will be giving myself a 1% pay rise.
Interesting fact about MT......It would be cheaper to limo the crew to the aircraft than use the '70's' working practices of MT! Amazing how narky they get when you want to travel on the c/c bus when the flight crew bus hasn't arrived. SORT IT OUT!!!!
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Fat tony
ere ere mate come the revolution and I hope it is a lot closer than we all think.
I cannot believe the shower we work for have gotten away with so much.I truly believe without 11-9 we would still have lost as much money - it just got rod off his bum a bit and made him make some decisions and there are still more to come if we are to return to profitability-and before you whinging anti- pilots brigade tell us how lucky we are dont bother.We are working our butt off for below thae market rate!
I cannot believe we as a group did not react more to the death of Stu Clapson - I believe the way he was treated was a disgrace.
And one of the managers who came off badly in the IT -DF was carried home from SEA the other day on a BA Duty ticket the other day in First Class as he was entitled as apparently he is a consultant for BA as well as working for Qatar.Jobs for the boys or what!! Now is the time Brother
Africacore
ere ere mate come the revolution and I hope it is a lot closer than we all think.
I cannot believe the shower we work for have gotten away with so much.I truly believe without 11-9 we would still have lost as much money - it just got rod off his bum a bit and made him make some decisions and there are still more to come if we are to return to profitability-and before you whinging anti- pilots brigade tell us how lucky we are dont bother.We are working our butt off for below thae market rate!
I cannot believe we as a group did not react more to the death of Stu Clapson - I believe the way he was treated was a disgrace.
And one of the managers who came off badly in the IT -DF was carried home from SEA the other day on a BA Duty ticket the other day in First Class as he was entitled as apparently he is a consultant for BA as well as working for Qatar.Jobs for the boys or what!! Now is the time Brother
Africacore
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I agree with Fat Tony. It is time we did something to better our pay and conditions - I hope that when the time comes our bite is as good as our bark.
We as a community are vigourously sreened prior to selection, then once in the job are have medicals, are put into the simulator twice a year, route checked, SEP tested and have SESMA watching over us every minute we are in the seat. If we don't perform we are either suspended or given our comics. No other depts within BA have these motivators, if you don't perform, nevermind...try harder next time e.g. B777 retro bunk modification debacle.
Now before 411A labels me as another Management basher Pilot. I have no gripes with paying Managers big salaries as long as they do their job. Far better to have one guy making the right decisions, putting in the hours and earing £120k than 5 guys running around like headless chickens from 10 till 3 earning £30k. W*nkerman's reinterviewing option sounds just the ticket.
ps I Voted JF
We as a community are vigourously sreened prior to selection, then once in the job are have medicals, are put into the simulator twice a year, route checked, SEP tested and have SESMA watching over us every minute we are in the seat. If we don't perform we are either suspended or given our comics. No other depts within BA have these motivators, if you don't perform, nevermind...try harder next time e.g. B777 retro bunk modification debacle.
Now before 411A labels me as another Management basher Pilot. I have no gripes with paying Managers big salaries as long as they do their job. Far better to have one guy making the right decisions, putting in the hours and earing £120k than 5 guys running around like headless chickens from 10 till 3 earning £30k. W*nkerman's reinterviewing option sounds just the ticket.
ps I Voted JF
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So it is quite obvious from the poll that the majority are unhappy, and if BALPA were to conduct a poll I think that would more than verify the results. The big question is when are we going to see something positive action on this matter?
Just another number
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"So it is quite obvious from the poll that the majority are unhappy"
Not so Homer. This is an open forum, and any registered user can vote, whether or not he/she works for BA (even 411A if he felt so inclined!)
Airclues
Not so Homer. This is an open forum, and any registered user can vote, whether or not he/she works for BA (even 411A if he felt so inclined!)
Airclues
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wryly--In the '50's and '60's, airline pilots were paid the same as doctors. Now, doc's are in the $120,000-$1M(U.S.) range. If you take UAL's 1981 pay(the last non-concessionary contract) and extrapolate it out for inflation, their current pay is right on line.
People in the U.S. are screaming about UAL and Delta being ruined by the higher pay scales but all they did was get a much overdue cost of living increase.
When cellphone salesmen are making $50,000 and bag loaders are making $50,000(with no overtime) is paying the pilot of a 747-400 $300,000/year out of line?TC
People in the U.S. are screaming about UAL and Delta being ruined by the higher pay scales but all they did was get a much overdue cost of living increase.
When cellphone salesmen are making $50,000 and bag loaders are making $50,000(with no overtime) is paying the pilot of a 747-400 $300,000/year out of line?TC
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Anyway, the wages paid to the flight deck crews only correspond with 3-5% of the ticketprice so why bother!!!!
People are willing to pay 800.000usd /year to their hart surgeon, 100000 usd for breast enlargements,......
Why than is it that everybody envies the wages of a highly trained professional like a pilot?
Isnt it normal that the person who is responsable of a piece of machinery, weighing 350 tons, travelling at over 850kts at altitudes of over 39000ft are paid according to their responsabilities?
If a doctor makes a mistake he can lose 1 life at the maximum. This is horrible and it should be made sure that only capable people are being given those jobs!!!!Totally true, thats why we pay them!
If a flight crew makes a mistake, they can lose 400 lives in the air, thousands on the ground and lose billions of dollars worth of equipment!!!!And those guys should not be paid accordingly?
What a world we live in......
People are willing to pay 800.000usd /year to their hart surgeon, 100000 usd for breast enlargements,......
Why than is it that everybody envies the wages of a highly trained professional like a pilot?
Isnt it normal that the person who is responsable of a piece of machinery, weighing 350 tons, travelling at over 850kts at altitudes of over 39000ft are paid according to their responsabilities?
If a doctor makes a mistake he can lose 1 life at the maximum. This is horrible and it should be made sure that only capable people are being given those jobs!!!!Totally true, thats why we pay them!
If a flight crew makes a mistake, they can lose 400 lives in the air, thousands on the ground and lose billions of dollars worth of equipment!!!!And those guys should not be paid accordingly?
What a world we live in......
Last edited by Airbusser; 10th Jun 2002 at 16:52.
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Give us SCOPE and the money will follow. Pilot shortages. Mass Exodus of 737 co-pilots to Easy at LGW and LTN. Flights cancelled due insufficient crews. 'Trouble brewing' causes huge dip in forward bookings. Pay rise by Christmas. Just remember SCOPE is not an unfair request regardless of how the Daily Mail may try to report it.
The majority of BA short haul pilots are paid the same or less than GB/Bmed pilots. SCOPE is the request by BA pilots to include all work done by BRITISH AIRWAYS painted aircraft to be done by BRITISH AIRWAYS pilots. BA routes deemed 'unprofitable' that are donated to GB/BMed are not unprofitable due to flight crew costs. Look elsewhere and you shall find the answer.
The majority of BA short haul pilots are paid the same or less than GB/Bmed pilots. SCOPE is the request by BA pilots to include all work done by BRITISH AIRWAYS painted aircraft to be done by BRITISH AIRWAYS pilots. BA routes deemed 'unprofitable' that are donated to GB/BMed are not unprofitable due to flight crew costs. Look elsewhere and you shall find the answer.
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It`s being in that Arizona sun that affects 411a`s way of thinking. But seriously 411, do you know the cost of living here in the south- east of England. As a shorthaul BA captain I struggle to get all the bills paid every month. We are vastly underpaid. I can make it no clearer than that.
Time for action......
Time for action......
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Start where we mean to go on
Its not just the airline industry - its everywhere.. well almost.
I'm only a PAX, and as such I see it as "you all work for me". My choice is fly cheapo bak of the bus 'cattle class' or pay for what you get, want, need - whatever.
At roughly 700h a year in a flying bus, I probably do as much as you guys, plus I get to do a day job as well....
And yet I want safety, service, punctuality, and all the good stuff - indeed I expect it, so I also have to be prepared to pay for it. Right.
I am, but I am not prepared to pay for some fat cat licking the cream at the top and s****ing the staff. No Airline executive should get more salary that the chief pilot on the line. If that were law - a lot of things would change.
What p*ss*s me off is the inefficiency that has been worked into the industry. Safety and checks and balances - are essential. But there is more than 1 way to skin a cat.
I'm not a communist or a socialist, I believe in fair trade and a healthy dose of capitalism, but in the airline industry some of this global reality has gone - just too far.
How can I support YOU best - by not flying on the airlines where the bosses are raking in 10 fold what a pilot earns and more - perhaps we PAX have to help you bankrupt the system - so that a new order can emerge.
YOU TELL ME - that way at least we will not be shaft**g you.
The only logical solution I can see is to avoid the main airlines and support only those set up by 'ex-pilots & idealists' such as Freddy Laker and Moritz Sutter - ups sorry they are both out of the running ... so what now guys..................
I'm only a PAX, and as such I see it as "you all work for me". My choice is fly cheapo bak of the bus 'cattle class' or pay for what you get, want, need - whatever.
At roughly 700h a year in a flying bus, I probably do as much as you guys, plus I get to do a day job as well....
And yet I want safety, service, punctuality, and all the good stuff - indeed I expect it, so I also have to be prepared to pay for it. Right.
I am, but I am not prepared to pay for some fat cat licking the cream at the top and s****ing the staff. No Airline executive should get more salary that the chief pilot on the line. If that were law - a lot of things would change.
What p*ss*s me off is the inefficiency that has been worked into the industry. Safety and checks and balances - are essential. But there is more than 1 way to skin a cat.
I'm not a communist or a socialist, I believe in fair trade and a healthy dose of capitalism, but in the airline industry some of this global reality has gone - just too far.
How can I support YOU best - by not flying on the airlines where the bosses are raking in 10 fold what a pilot earns and more - perhaps we PAX have to help you bankrupt the system - so that a new order can emerge.
YOU TELL ME - that way at least we will not be shaft**g you.
The only logical solution I can see is to avoid the main airlines and support only those set up by 'ex-pilots & idealists' such as Freddy Laker and Moritz Sutter - ups sorry they are both out of the running ... so what now guys..................
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Do BA really restrict your availability of water to only 1.5 Litres on a JFK, or is that just the allowance provided by them? If you feel the need for more water, perhaps you could take some of your own, or are your pay and conditions so bad that you can't afford a bottle of water. Soon they will take away the Hostie to wipe your arse for you if things are allowed to carry on like this!!
I am fortunate enough to fly for a UK cargo airline. Our pay is 60% of BA levels, we fly mainly at night, pay for our own food and drink, operate older aircraft and are responsible for managing the whole flight on a worldwide ad-hoc basis. Most, if not all of the pilots here are happy with their lot. Why is that?
There have been a few NIGELs in training working here over the years. They all work towards BA as their ultimate goal, the flag carrier, jets from LHR, strutting through the departure lounge wearing a stupid hat and looking important. And when they get there.......they moan about how hard done by they are.
You want our sympathy, NO CHANCE, I think you are a disgrace to our profession.
I am fortunate enough to fly for a UK cargo airline. Our pay is 60% of BA levels, we fly mainly at night, pay for our own food and drink, operate older aircraft and are responsible for managing the whole flight on a worldwide ad-hoc basis. Most, if not all of the pilots here are happy with their lot. Why is that?
There have been a few NIGELs in training working here over the years. They all work towards BA as their ultimate goal, the flag carrier, jets from LHR, strutting through the departure lounge wearing a stupid hat and looking important. And when they get there.......they moan about how hard done by they are.
You want our sympathy, NO CHANCE, I think you are a disgrace to our profession.
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Oh dear me! SBA we are not a little envious of our dear Fat Tony and collegues are we. Who told you that you earn 60% of a BA person? Unfortunately pay comparison is not easy due to the complicated systems used by the various companies.
The BALPA statistical gathering of late seemed to suggest that BA pilots were not earning what they were due compared to other european flag carriers.
I think it is great, SBA, that you enjoy your job and are 'happy with your lot'. I certainly love my job and would not want to do anything else but I also have a predilection for other delights in the world which means seeing people in daytime. I would make a poor bat but if thats what you enjoy, great.
I tend to take an opposing opinion to SBA and support FT's sentiments as if BA pilots are getting slowly stuffed by the green eyed monsters in their company, the fall out WILL affect all of us in the UK flying scene.
I once met a skipper from Chippy fryer in a bar and he would not stop wingeing about how BA had come in and ruined everything and BA this, and BA that and what a poor company it was. Unfortunately he let slip that he had gone for selection the year before and got binned. Naturally this raises the question of someone not deemed as suitable to fly big aircraft now having access to those fleets however my point was if it was such a bad company to work for, why apply?
In conclusion I would like to suggest that some at least try to camouflage the large deep fried potato snacks that are on their shoulders. With regard to being a disgrace, pity that I and the majority of the publc view BA pilots up there as the best and I certainly think they look very smart with platinum stripes. I've always found them to be pleasant to speak to...some BA detractors on this forum appear quite venomous and bitter - great fun on a night flight full of rubber dog stuff out of Hong Kong!!
Kind regards,
yours aye,
Leslie
The BALPA statistical gathering of late seemed to suggest that BA pilots were not earning what they were due compared to other european flag carriers.
I think it is great, SBA, that you enjoy your job and are 'happy with your lot'. I certainly love my job and would not want to do anything else but I also have a predilection for other delights in the world which means seeing people in daytime. I would make a poor bat but if thats what you enjoy, great.
I tend to take an opposing opinion to SBA and support FT's sentiments as if BA pilots are getting slowly stuffed by the green eyed monsters in their company, the fall out WILL affect all of us in the UK flying scene.
I once met a skipper from Chippy fryer in a bar and he would not stop wingeing about how BA had come in and ruined everything and BA this, and BA that and what a poor company it was. Unfortunately he let slip that he had gone for selection the year before and got binned. Naturally this raises the question of someone not deemed as suitable to fly big aircraft now having access to those fleets however my point was if it was such a bad company to work for, why apply?
In conclusion I would like to suggest that some at least try to camouflage the large deep fried potato snacks that are on their shoulders. With regard to being a disgrace, pity that I and the majority of the publc view BA pilots up there as the best and I certainly think they look very smart with platinum stripes. I've always found them to be pleasant to speak to...some BA detractors on this forum appear quite venomous and bitter - great fun on a night flight full of rubber dog stuff out of Hong Kong!!
Kind regards,
yours aye,
Leslie
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Leslie,
Sorry to disappoint you but I am quite happy on a 53 tonne four engine aircraft that still requires a pilot or two and have never felt any desire to apply to BA. If I wanted to operate a computer for a living I wouldn't have bothered with the ATPL.
You think I must be a little envious, but this thread is three pages of BA pilots saying that conditions are so bad they should be taking industrial action. What am I supposed to be envious of?
"BALPA state that BA pilots are not earning what they are due compared to other European flag carriers." Surely what you are due is related only to the performance of BA. If other carriers are offering higher salaries, it is probably because they are in a better position to do so. This may be through better management, better working practices, more efficient crewing, government intervention or just sheer luck. None of this changes the fact that if the Company isn't making money, it is downright stupid to be demanding a salary increase. Just call in at the Brussels dole office and ask the Sabena pilots that went on strike a month before the airlines collapse.
Perhaps their grievances were less important than half a litre of water and a crew bus.
Enjoy your whingeing!!
More than just a number
Sorry to disappoint you but I am quite happy on a 53 tonne four engine aircraft that still requires a pilot or two and have never felt any desire to apply to BA. If I wanted to operate a computer for a living I wouldn't have bothered with the ATPL.
You think I must be a little envious, but this thread is three pages of BA pilots saying that conditions are so bad they should be taking industrial action. What am I supposed to be envious of?
"BALPA state that BA pilots are not earning what they are due compared to other European flag carriers." Surely what you are due is related only to the performance of BA. If other carriers are offering higher salaries, it is probably because they are in a better position to do so. This may be through better management, better working practices, more efficient crewing, government intervention or just sheer luck. None of this changes the fact that if the Company isn't making money, it is downright stupid to be demanding a salary increase. Just call in at the Brussels dole office and ask the Sabena pilots that went on strike a month before the airlines collapse.
Perhaps their grievances were less important than half a litre of water and a crew bus.
Enjoy your whingeing!!
More than just a number
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You've got a point there SBA. I dowonder how many Sabena pilots are still at the dole office. A handful maybe? Most of them are working for a company called DAT and the rest are flying for various companies around Europe. What I do know is that there are a large number of Sabena 'executives' finding it tough to find another job. Here lies the Nigels gripe. BA use the term 'market rate' as a club to beat us with when we come cap in hand over the last few years. Why can't we use it now?
Whilst your at it, tell me what you earn so that I can check your 60% statistic, because the DHL rates I've looked at are not 60% of what I'm getting.
Whilst your at it, tell me what you earn so that I can check your 60% statistic, because the DHL rates I've looked at are not 60% of what I'm getting.
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Judging by SBAs location and job description I'd wager he's flying for someone like Air Atlantique, on something old and clapped out like an Electra. Well good for him, I'm sure he's a martyr for his employer. Strangely there are a couple of former Air A pilots just up the road at BHX flying for BA. Both excellent operators and neither in the least bit bitter about BA. I suppose some people just get on with their careers and others just sit around resenting them for doing so. If he wants to fly a computer he should stick to his Flight Sim 2000. If he bothered to find out he'd discover the that modern airliners are actually real aircraft, and considerably more complex, higher performance systems than Electras. Still, our guys enjoy flying them just as much as the 747 Classics, 747-400s, 737-200s, 737-400s, 757s, 767s, 707s, L1011s, DC10s, A300s, BAC 111s, ATPs, ATRs, DC 3s, Bandeirantes and Twin Otters they used to fly.
By the way, if you think pay should be performance related then consider which airline has flown billions of passengers across the world for over twenty five years without a crash. I'd say thats a pretty good performance.
By the way, if you think pay should be performance related then consider which airline has flown billions of passengers across the world for over twenty five years without a crash. I'd say thats a pretty good performance.