Is it really that bad?
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It depends where u work!! pprune seems to be full of people at the 
end of aviation working for average operators to average airports. There are lots of aviators at the other end of the spectrum who have amazing careers. Do you think they can be bothered contributing to most of the threads on here about whiz or ryan?
In my case it's amazing, I'm living the dream, In jan I had a week in Thailand and a week in Barbados, I'm currently sitting on a lounger in Jamaica waiting for beer o'clock and the view/crew is pretty good too.
end of aviation working for average operators to average airports. There are lots of aviators at the other end of the spectrum who have amazing careers. Do you think they can be bothered contributing to most of the threads on here about whiz or ryan?In my case it's amazing, I'm living the dream, In jan I had a week in Thailand and a week in Barbados, I'm currently sitting on a lounger in Jamaica waiting for beer o'clock and the view/crew is pretty good too.
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And that's the wonderful variation of this career! Personally, done all that DC has described and can't think of anything worse, now I love been at home every-night in rural England!
Other mans grass and all that...
Enjoy your Red Stripe!
Other mans grass and all that...
Enjoy your Red Stripe!
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Presumably at a different BA to the one where projected time to a short haul command is 23 years, and any long haul command is over 30 years?
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DC, most your post is correct, there are lots of shabby jobs in aviation, with people desperate to move on. It is a realistic expectation that the first job you get post training may be one of these, but like everyone did 30 years ago trugging around in a Chieftain that had so many faults it was a miracle that you got to destination, you bide your time and move on when the opportunity arises. I think many of the gripes on pprune are from people who thought this was a one way ticket to an easy life, which it is not. Over the years there has been periodic attacks on the life in every airline going, remember when VS put the 747 classic fleet and its pilots out the door? VS was not flavour of the month for years. Ever spent the evening in the bar with a bunch of BA pilots? They could winge on forever about how awful their lot is! And actually, even the BA guys do have a point, nothing is as good as it was. Bottom of the seniority list, on a different contract and a bidline system does not make for happy bunnies.
I differ with you on your last point, I'm glad you are having an amazing time and I hope you can remember those times if the going gets tough for you. I enjoy the same lifestyle as you, but, that same lifestyle would have been absolute hell when I had a young wife and family back at home. Which was the precise point of my original post, you have to try and tailor your job and life so they don't clash and that is the way to enjoy a career as a pilot.
Enjoy the beach!
I differ with you on your last point, I'm glad you are having an amazing time and I hope you can remember those times if the going gets tough for you. I enjoy the same lifestyle as you, but, that same lifestyle would have been absolute hell when I had a young wife and family back at home. Which was the precise point of my original post, you have to try and tailor your job and life so they don't clash and that is the way to enjoy a career as a pilot.
Enjoy the beach!
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Be careful what you wish for!
Airline flying is a very different beast to 20 years ago, and people still haven't twigged that. The problem is that it'll get worse.
That said, as a 20 something year old it's hard to dissuade them when the other option is desk work of some sort!
Airline flying is a very different beast to 20 years ago, and people still haven't twigged that. The problem is that it'll get worse.
That said, as a 20 something year old it's hard to dissuade them when the other option is desk work of some sort!
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How miserly airlines created their own pilot shortage - Phoenix Business Journal
So beautifully stated.
Faced with what it claims is this catastrophic, route-shedding, plane-grounding, hub-killing shortage of aviators, you'd think the airline industry would react with across-the-board pay increases. After all, isn't that how it works in a capitalistic society? When faced with a labor shortage, companies raise their pay scales to attract more workers. You'd think this would be especially true for airline pilots, whose learning curve is steep and expensive and in whose hands rest the lives of passengers and the reputation of their employers.
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My main dream is to travel and the fact that I also love aviation. But with all the news and forums I have read I want to ask this question.
I can tell you a bit from the inside. I flew for a LCC and quit, and changed career... Glad i did it sooner, because most of guys are stucked.
An advice, if you really want to try, get a degree first !! It is a MUST.
Bear in mind, a pilot has just a big "driving license" which can be revocated at anytime. You miss an altitude level, or you descent without clearance and you are screwed.
So, get a degree and have some skills other than piloting.
I tell you that because, I did not get a degree...and changing career after a pilot career is quite a challenge ! Yeah you know VOR, GPS, you know ILS approach, something that nobody cares in the other world on ground.
- Your dream is to travel ?
It was mine too. Believe me, I traveled less than most of my friends actually who have a normal job. Isn't it Ironic ? (or pathetic ?)
Most of the time I saw runways, aprons and cockpit. Yes in a LCC you do not have time to get out of the cockpit that much. Just enough time to pee and take the next flight plans, weather, notams. 30min of turn around is very short. (an tiring with time).
Maybe you think "oh, we can travel on our days OFF " . Hum...yes...but when you are OFF, honestly, you do not want to be in a plane or wait at the airport anymore. Being OFF means, doing something completely different. Stay at home and relax, doing sport etc.
The thing is don't confuse Travel and travel. A pilot's job is to carry people from A to B. The management does not pay you to Travel.
If you manage to land in a right seat, it will be for sure, a LCC.
So, if you sleep in another city, believe me, the firsts things you will do :
Shower and Sleep. Because you will have to enough fit for the next flight !
If you like to travel, the best thing is to do it during your real days OFF.
A pilot does not travel... no no no no and NO. It's quite an illusion.
Play flight simulator on your Computer, and you get pretty much the same feeling. You land, and you take off again...4 times each day.
- You love aviation. Of course. I would say that 99% of us, all the pilot, loved or love aviation. We all started with that in mind.
But, just to clarify one thing :
Loving something, does not mean to do it as a professionnal. You really should make the difference.
To avoid any disappointments, you should just like it. that's it.
Pilot is not a job, it's a lifestyle.
If you like to live as a bohemian, go for it. I would say it's a bit a nice job for youngs. But you approach 30, you really starts to think differently.
That's why, I told you : get a BACK UP PLAN.
Because, being stucked in a lifestyle that you dislike after a while, you will really feel like depressed. Maybe that's why we see negative comments on forums.
Be smart !
Any human being want to control his life a minimum. Being a pilot you don't control that much. You are a tool for the management.
You're young it's ok. But in case of change, be prepared.
Today I am lot happier with recreationnal flight on beside my new job. When I was in Asia, I did not have time to fly as hobby. But anyway, there were no flying clubs !! so...no choice... and I can tell I really missed it.
Bad or not, you will judge yourself (I hope for you), it's your life.
Would I recommend this career ? No...if it was free, yes why not. But considering the cost of training and the investment return, definetly no...especially with the career evolution now. Climing the ladder is harder and harder. Most fo the guys start in a LCC and will end up in a....LCC or in another job. Because 40 years in a LCC ? no way ! unless being a robot lol.
Last edited by Greenlights; 24th Feb 2014 at 17:39.
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Great question... answered by lots of well-informed posters giving their honest opinions in an attempt to fully answer the young man's desire for guidance... this is what Prune is all about.... not a place to air sour grapes or score points off others as is what happens most of the time... well done all !
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Interesting Comments
Some honest interesting comments here.
I did the pilot career thing flying private jets first and then for 5 different airlines.
Over 15 years I saw the hours per month worked triple and the money stay the same. I then looked at colleagues that had gone off to fly long-haul and become Chief pilots and they were a nervous wreck. However, a few friends managed to find a good job flying a rich guys private jet 120-150 hrs a year and pocketing nice money.
I have always had a knack for business so I have managed to combine my love for flying with business and now sell and lease aircraft.
Would I suggest a pilot career to a young person? Well, as you know qualifying will cost you in region of £120K and the ROI is not very good. However, if you have the money and are young and REALLY want to give it a go... If you have a family it will be tough on them, this is why many pilots end up divorced. The guys doing well are usually single. However, if you manage to join a company like Lufthansa or British Airways you will end up with a good balance.
It all depends what you are looking for in life.
I did the pilot career thing flying private jets first and then for 5 different airlines.
Over 15 years I saw the hours per month worked triple and the money stay the same. I then looked at colleagues that had gone off to fly long-haul and become Chief pilots and they were a nervous wreck. However, a few friends managed to find a good job flying a rich guys private jet 120-150 hrs a year and pocketing nice money.
I have always had a knack for business so I have managed to combine my love for flying with business and now sell and lease aircraft.
Would I suggest a pilot career to a young person? Well, as you know qualifying will cost you in region of £120K and the ROI is not very good. However, if you have the money and are young and REALLY want to give it a go... If you have a family it will be tough on them, this is why many pilots end up divorced. The guys doing well are usually single. However, if you manage to join a company like Lufthansa or British Airways you will end up with a good balance.
It all depends what you are looking for in life.
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A good way forward if you can manage it would be
Get an education to degree level
Get life skills
Get employable skills outside aviation
Avoid paying top dollar for your flight training
Avoid the LCCs like the plague if you can
I was lucky to career change and remain in my previous career part time as well as flying big shiny jets (my previous career pays much better than the Locos)
Having a degree and life/work skills outside aviation keeps you out of the trap of been totally dependent on the industry
Doing both part time could help not become too downhearted with either, ironically you could find you would tend to miss the one your not doing.
As with the other fantastic advice on this thread my advice would definetely be:
Get a degree get life skills first have something else. Train as economically as you can, avoid the larger debt
I would offer second advice of:
Avoid paying top whack at a FTO and going straight into the RHS of a brand spanking new jet with no back up plan a relatively low wage and big training debt. Working a mad lifestyle ruining roster for a company that doesnt actually look after you or care for you
The sensible person would not clamour for this situation. And this is exactly the situation that many are falling into. Be smart. Dont get sucked into the hype or the marketing spiel,
Good luck - if you take the right approach it can still be the best job in the world, it seems you are doing the right research from the outset and there is some genuine and excellent advice on this thread
Get an education to degree level
Get life skills
Get employable skills outside aviation
Avoid paying top dollar for your flight training
Avoid the LCCs like the plague if you can
I was lucky to career change and remain in my previous career part time as well as flying big shiny jets (my previous career pays much better than the Locos)
Having a degree and life/work skills outside aviation keeps you out of the trap of been totally dependent on the industry
Doing both part time could help not become too downhearted with either, ironically you could find you would tend to miss the one your not doing.
As with the other fantastic advice on this thread my advice would definetely be:
Get a degree get life skills first have something else. Train as economically as you can, avoid the larger debt
I would offer second advice of:
Avoid paying top whack at a FTO and going straight into the RHS of a brand spanking new jet with no back up plan a relatively low wage and big training debt. Working a mad lifestyle ruining roster for a company that doesnt actually look after you or care for you
The sensible person would not clamour for this situation. And this is exactly the situation that many are falling into. Be smart. Dont get sucked into the hype or the marketing spiel,
Good luck - if you take the right approach it can still be the best job in the world, it seems you are doing the right research from the outset and there is some genuine and excellent advice on this thread
However, if you manage to join a company like Lufthansa or British Airways you will end up with a good balance.
I really wish I could "gift" youngsters the career I had - 12 years pulling the wings off government hardware and then a quarter of a century
on Long Haul....but I can't 
The only advice I can give these days is do lots of research, don't believe the FTO's shiny brochures, and above all don't get into a silly amount of debt trying to "live the dream"...
(Edit to add: Seems I've set a few alarm bells ringing. I do not wish to be unnecessarily alarmist but IMHO prospective newbies need to be aware that even the seemingly "gold standard" airlines will be unable to maintain their current T&Cs given current commercial pressures and legislative changes).
Last edited by wiggy; 26th Feb 2014 at 11:05.
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Working for a LCC is a bit of a drudge and it would be fair to say that none of my colleagues think that they are "living the dream". For most it is a means to an end, it pays off the loan and keeps food on the table. The mind bending monotony of 4 sector days helps to numb us out of any inkling that we are enjoying what we do for a living.
Bearing in mind that it is a pretty average way of making a living, I am somewhat mystified as to why people would want to pay a large amount of money in order to do it.
Most of the new...ish guys at my base view it as a better alternative to an office job, but as a lifestyle, erm.... it's shift work, boring, dirty and tiring.
Bearing in mind that it is a pretty average way of making a living, I am somewhat mystified as to why people would want to pay a large amount of money in order to do it.
Most of the new...ish guys at my base view it as a better alternative to an office job, but as a lifestyle, erm.... it's shift work, boring, dirty and tiring.
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I can always understand why people would want to do it, and there are lots of worse jobs out there.
It's when people get confused with the lifestyle of a 1980s BA LH Captain, and think that's what they're signing up for. A very different world, and one that will continue downwards as the aircraft become increasingly modernised.
It's when people get confused with the lifestyle of a 1980s BA LH Captain, and think that's what they're signing up for. A very different world, and one that will continue downwards as the aircraft become increasingly modernised.
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The flip side of the objectively good advice about asking around and doing good research is this: if you are having to think that hard about it then, no don't do it. Go into I.T. or accountancy, or something.
On the other hand if you really, really want to fly aircraft for a living, then nothing else will make you happy.
I've been doing nothing else for over 20 years in a mix of G.A. and SH. Some jobs better than others, but overall the best move I ever made (career-wise, anyway...).
So the question kind of answers itself.
On the other hand if you really, really want to fly aircraft for a living, then nothing else will make you happy.
I've been doing nothing else for over 20 years in a mix of G.A. and SH. Some jobs better than others, but overall the best move I ever made (career-wise, anyway...).
So the question kind of answers itself.
I think that depends on the rostering...if you've got some element of control (so you can at least attempt to avoid working every weekend/holiday/), have some decent trip constructions/destinations - not just a perpetual string of three day trips back and forth across the pond, and your contract means you don't have to aim to fly the CAA/EASA maximum every month then you can have some quality time at home not feeling like a zombie.....OTOH if you're not that lucky it can be very unpleasant..and yes, antisocial.
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Wiggy speaks from the top of the tree. As he admits, for new joiners it's going to be a whole lot different, especially when loco and legacy T&Cs effectively merge (or meet at the loco end).
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To put things into perspective for your people who are looking into this job.
At my current European Loco airlines (not the one that shall not be named) I know of 2 young F/O's (25 ish) who have cashed out and are heading back to university. These are people just like you, who started flying out of passion. 6 to 7 years later they're all looking for a way out.
Unless you manage to land a job at one of the legacies you're looking in at the wrong industry for a career. Even If you manage to land a 737 job at your homebase, there's no future in it. Or are you going to do 35-40 years of loco short hauling?
At my current European Loco airlines (not the one that shall not be named) I know of 2 young F/O's (25 ish) who have cashed out and are heading back to university. These are people just like you, who started flying out of passion. 6 to 7 years later they're all looking for a way out.
Unless you manage to land a job at one of the legacies you're looking in at the wrong industry for a career. Even If you manage to land a 737 job at your homebase, there's no future in it. Or are you going to do 35-40 years of loco short hauling?