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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 02:00
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Good ol' USA
Posts: 111

40+ years ago a pilot Capt. was the ability to buy a new Cadillac every month with his Salary. Now you cannot buy anything with the sh--t salary that you get, toughen up get the pay scale up, or you'r thrash hauler will make more , than you!!!! It is terrible how you view you'r position.
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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 06:25
  #22 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Camp X-Ray
Posts: 2,135
Thanks for the semi-literate replies!

Benip - get a grip! Disregard the 'smugness' and work on the info which I'm sure you can get from people in BA, or people who know people in BA. The truth is readily available and its not necessarily the mannah from heaven that the new joiners, the senior, or the retirees will tell you. But spare us all your persistent whinging.
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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 07:48
  #23 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: south england
Posts: 395
We complain about other peoples salary. BA is a bench mark whether we like it or not.

We have to stop the tide as best we can as we race to the bottom. TUI are trying to force flat salary scales for new joiners (good on the members for standing up to it), BA now have a B scale and not unlike Cathay will no doubt have a C scale in the future. We are all on the slippery slope!

Last edited by gatbusdriver; 23rd Apr 2012 at 08:20.
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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 07:59
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 185
Hand, Your smugness in particular is difficult to disregard when it is ingrained in your every post. The main thing I'm whinging about is the pension (FFS wouldn't you) and of course your attitude.

Your points can be made without the constant playground mentality of 'I told you so!' appended to your every post. Believe me I heard you the first couple of times so can we bury this one?
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Old 24th Apr 2012, 07:39
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Near LONDON
Posts: 48
Mr Benip
If you weren't so cringingly bitter in all of your posts maybe you wouldnt get such scathing replies.
Maybe a few more post with substance rather than bitter and twisted BA BA BA comments would raise peoples opinion of you,
Just a thought, and not in any way making light of any comments regarding pensions that are obviously justified
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Old 24th Apr 2012, 10:45
  #26 (permalink)  

PPRuNe Person
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: see roster
Posts: 1,269
It seems to be a peculiarly British thing to 'pull down' those who have achieved success.

Why do some insist on devoting energy to criticism of those who have jobs with the best paying employer?

Why not recognise that some employers pay more than others and as gatbusdriver says, provide a benchmark.
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Old 24th Apr 2012, 21:21
  #27 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: pluto
Posts: 182
BA now have a B scale
BA now have an A- scale.
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Old 24th Apr 2012, 23:24
  #28 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: York
Posts: 712
BA now have a B scale and not unlike Cathay will no doubt have a C scale in the future.
No they do not.

Six years ago, BA had a compulsory retirement age of 55. (Unlike most British airlines??) So a cadet joining at 20 would enjoy 11 years on pp24 before retirement.

Those yet to join will have a compulsory retirement age of 65 meaning a cadet joining at age 20 will ALSO now enjoy 11 years on (what was) pp24 before retirement, and due to their longer career , their overall earnings will of course be greater!

Anyone joining before age 31 will reach the top paypoint before retirement, just as they always did.

The only anomoly are those fortunate enough to have been in the right place, at the right time to enjoy the old pay scale, but the new legislation! I can assure you BA regard them as a big problem to the payroll, spending upto twenty years on the top paypoint!! (150-180k!)

QED: No 'B' payscale at BA! Sorry.

Last edited by 4468; 25th Apr 2012 at 10:51.
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Old 24th Apr 2012, 23:42
  #29 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: LHR
Posts: 90
Mr Benip
If you weren't so cringingly bitter in all of your posts maybe you wouldnt get such scathing replies.
Nail hit on head.
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Old 24th Apr 2012, 23:44
  #30 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: LHR
Posts: 90

You'd be better off at EZY - part time contract - European base. Like all the ex-BA captains at EZY..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How many BA captains have left for EZY since the compulsory retirement went up from 55 to 65 in Oct 2006?
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Old 25th Apr 2012, 09:24
  #31 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 715
Studi you are like a broken record. It is always the same few usernames who appear on BA threads having a moan - you are one of them.

You have demonstrated clearly on many occasions you do not understand the alternative to pp34 that we had to vote over. There was never an option to "sell out" future colleagues, only decide which option offered the best form of damage limitation to the career paths of ourselves and those who wish to join in the decades to come. Legacy airlines are changing, whether we like it or not. What you haven't realised (yet) is "just saying no" is not a long term option for legacy pilots of the modern day. I would point you in the direction of Qantas, Iberia and the recent collective bargaining changes that are likely to be the pre-cursor to major changes at Air France.

It isn't 1970 anymore, Brit -bash as much as you like if it makes you feel better but the music stopped a long time ago. Prolonging the T&Cs our predecessors established (in a state-owned era when profit and share price were secondary/non-existent issues) is the name of the game now.

it was clearly shown here that most BA (and unfortunately also EZY UK) pilots don't have any longterm strategic view on where they stand
I would suggest we have a clear grasp on reality and the pp34 vote demonstrated a clear understanding of the long-term prospects for our careers. No one liked doing it. I would also suggest that sticking our heads in the sand and telling our reps to shout "NO" loudly at ruthless members of the IAG hierarchy would be demonstrating the polar opposite of a long term strategy.
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Old 25th Apr 2012, 09:31
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: EGKK
Age: 58
Posts: 69
When I joined BA approaching 20 years ago NRA was 55. I took the gamble that it would change and was correct. I challenge anyone who has left BA at 55 to EZY et al to say they would have made that move to another operator had NRA in BA been 60/65. Much bitterness is unfortunately being displayed on this thread which is sad given the Professsional nature of the site.I would suggest also that all the BA DEPs/FPPs have aspirations to fly Long Haul when the chance occurs....they may hate it ...but the attraction of BA remains the variety of fleets/lifestyles despite the recently increased 5 year freeze period and the ability to return to SH.
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Old 25th Apr 2012, 09:45
  #33 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 8
Guys why are we having these arguments? Let those that want to take a pop at BA carry on, everyone at BA just enjoy the lifestyle, pay, benefits, route/fleet structure, 6 weeks of leave a year, outstanding support in the event of family illness or problems, union representation..............enough said!
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Old 25th Apr 2012, 11:04
  #34 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: York
Posts: 712
They were not fortunate enough, they deliberately sold the future colleagues out to be able to profit personally from RA 65 AND pp24. It should have never happened this way, but it was clearly shown here that most BA (and unfortunately also EZY UK) pilots don't have any longterm strategic view on where they stand.
You clearly have (want?) little/no understanding of the issues here. Nor the way legacy airlines are currently evolving. Anybody who thinks just saying 'no' will protect T&Cs doesn't have to look too far these days to see where that type of 1970s industrial relations ends up!!!!!

It's no coincidence that BA pilots still enjoy some of the best T&Cs in the industry DESPITE the fact they would be swamped with applications EVEN IF their T&Cs were amongst the worst!

I have no inclination to explain any further to the likes of you.

Last edited by 4468; 25th Apr 2012 at 11:24.
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Old 25th Apr 2012, 13:33
  #35 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: the edge of reason
Posts: 210
Mr Benip, who rattled your cage?

I'm not smug, I'm pretty content and I'm smug about that, but I'm not smug!

However, I'll deal with the posting that offended you so much and caused you so much angst..

34 years is a long, long time to wait to get to decent money..!
The inference here is that until one has done 34 years service then the money is crap, not so. The money is pretty good from the start and gets better with every passing year. Also, at no time did Craggenmore (the original author of the above quote) define "decent money".

Smug enough?

In 34 years time, what's the UK tax threshold going to be for high earners..?

50% - 60% - 70%
Well, if this isn't bollox then I don't know what is. Is the author a clairvoyant tax specialist? In 34 years time will we all be flying to Mars on Branson's Space Atlantic, perhaps the earth will have changed into brown goo and we won't have the contamination figures to deal with it!! Perhaps tax in the UK will be a flat rate of 30 per cent.

I don't care much. I'll be smugly retired!

BA will most likely be up to 900/1000 hrs/year for all pilots within 5 years from now.
Well, if that's the case as put by our clairvoyant scheduling legislation, industrial representative, tax specialist then all other airlines will probably be doing the same, or more! I won't care because I'll be smugly retired!

You'd be better off at EZY - part time contract - European base. Like all the ex-BA captains at EZY..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Part time sounds good, the rest is, yes, bollox. Question for Craggenmore..

How many pilots have left BA for EZY since the retirement age was raised?

Any questions Mr Benip?

Yours well smugly
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Old 25th Apr 2012, 13:35
  #36 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 185
No Questions, Just put it to bed man.
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Old 25th Apr 2012, 13:59
  #37 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Camp X-Ray
Posts: 2,135
Studi - has anyone ever actually asked you to take a large pay cut in order to preserve a pay scale for people have yet to join your company? If so then please share the details with us. If not, then please spare us your hypocritical whining. I'll bet you a Euro you've never been exposed to the real, hard world of decision making, which is why you feel comfortable lecturing the rest of us on a decision you've never had to make whilst pursuing unrealistic ideals.
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Old 25th Apr 2012, 14:09
  #38 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: U.K.
Posts: 529
What's about being a pilot for easyJet on a mainland European contract then benderman? Excuse me while I'm not jealous of you flying an noisy 747, at night, listening to static on HF and having to spend all your night stops with a load of 50 year old unionists that seem to think they were conscribed to be cabin crew. Never a more miserable bunch than BA cabin crew. Must be a pleasure.

EasyJet is a great company - it offers a nice balance and plenty of opportunity to actually fly.

Given BA/IAGs current tack are you genuinely not concerned by the amount of time you have given/could give in an unmeritocratic organisation and how they could tear it all away from you? That's not to say you as pilots aren't performing but the seniority system means the best/ hardest working/ most motivated can be held back by some lazy b'stards right of passage.

All this said, I genuinely hope BA maintain excellent Ts and Cs and continue to recruit - not because I necessarily want to go there but because they create the labour turnover that sways the recruitment supply and demand balance.

I don't care much. I'll be smugly retired!
And so PTF will enter BA. As long as you're alright Jack.
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Old 25th Apr 2012, 15:26
  #39 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Uk
Posts: 0

i'm glad your so happy at easyjet, but I don't understand why you are so angry about other people flying for BA? In fact, why are you even looking at a thread about the new BA pay scale if Easy suits you so well.
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Old 25th Apr 2012, 15:43
  #40 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Camp X-Ray
Posts: 2,135
We voted for an increase in the overtime threshold in our last big fight to make up for productivity issues on shothaul routes (the same ones you also try to make profitable with the integration of BMI). The overtime increase is applicable to every pilot, actual and future, short- or longhaul, CPT or FO, same for everyone.

So yes, Hand, I did walk the walk.
No you did not walk the walk. What you voted for is very, very different from what you are lecturing BA pilots to accept. So you voted for changes to overtime? Big deal! We did that years ago, with our overtime rate rate reduced to 1.25 from 1.5, applicable to every current or future BA pilot. No, what you are asking for is for every BA pilot to transition to a 34 point payscale at the next increment. That neatly overlooks the fact that it doesn't solve BAs problem, which is too many pilots at PP24 now and in the next five years. It also ignores the fact that every pilot who is currently on the fattest of paypoints loses nothing, to be funded instead by those who are on lower payscales which they signed up to in good faith. You see, or more accurately what you don't see, is that nobody is going to vote themselves a major pay cut. Not ever, in any airline. And certainly not to fund people who have yet to join a company which is still offering good salaries and is not unreasonably trying to adapt to changes in employment legislation in a reasonably fair manner. For all your pious lecturing, you still don't seem to have grasped the significance of what it is you are actually asking BA pilots to do, nor do you recognise that you have done nothing similar yourself.

I will continue to compare the concept of I am allright Jack with the concept of unity.
Yes you will, because it's lazy and the actual facts of the case don't suit your personal narrative. You clearly prefer to deal in soundbites rather than practical solutions.

It is good to show to people that there are other ways of dealing with certain challenges than the two biggest UK pilots group did in the last few years.
When you come up with a practical, feasible, realistic scenario rather than some idealistic nonsense I'll be the first one listening. What is slightly bizarre is your own self-belief that you have found the solutions to so many intractable problems in the UK industry, which have vexed the minds of many people far smarter than you with better knowledge of the situations, and you did this all on your own in a different country!

If some tempers are uncomfortable about it, so be it. They can ignore me, I am fine with it.
We already do.
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