NEW BA PILOT SCALE

[Callsign Kilo]

Fact - Bmi mainline is being integrated with BA.
Fact - PP34 exists within BA.
Fact - 12 slot pairs are up for grabs at Heathrow.
Fact - DLH has transferred the Bmi pension fund to the UK PPF.

These are the facts gentlemen, they are not up for debate. What this means for the future is uncertain, however what is happening now isn't going to change. People have their reasons for their opinions and beliefs. It's a pointless process going round and round in circles with them, dont you think?

[ETOPS]

Das ist kein Spiel.....

[Hand Solo]

I see what you mean, however I can not see BA not taking the option of PP34 for ALL employees and not be as hard on other things.

Even if BA would accept your proposition, it would be a significant change of contract for all individuals. BA have no interest in pursuing it, as amply evidenced by the cabin crew strike in which no existing crew had their contracts changed. BA don't want it and it's not BALPAs job to deliver it to them.

At the end, where is YOUR redline?

I know where mine is and it isn't where you think it should be. No doubt the other 3300+ pilots in BA have their own lines too.

Management want more than anything else figures in savings, how you achieve them is pretty sure of second interest to them. So let the figures be their redline, and make unity your redline.

You are making big assumptions again. PP34 has been the holy grail of BA management for a decade. How BA get the savings long term is very much their concern. They want a sustainable business, not a series of union suggested sticking plasters that leave the operation in a precarious position. As I said earlier, management run the business, not the employees. Spare us the 'unity' battle cry. Unity in itself is not a global panacea, nor is unity a cause in itself. There is little of your interpretation of unity in BA anyway with the multitude of different pay and pension scales yet the sky hasn't fallen in.

If to disunite you was a redline for WW, even more it should have all made you alarmed. I think everyone is knowledgeable about WW and union busting.

It's all back to unity for you again. It's not a magic potion, and being united doesn't make having a cricket bat shoved up your jacksy any more enjoyable or noble. Unity with stupidity is not to be strived for.

We will see. At the end we heard it many times that "this" fight is not worth fighting, and see were we are now in the UK?

Yep, we're in Europes most competitive aviation market bar none. Thats why terms are under pressure in the UK. And you are not doing better in Germany because you are united, but because you have no domestic long haul competitor of significance and nothing like the market penetration of low cost carriers. They'll come, and so will the cost cutting.

BA is not better than the rest because of a strategic and smart CC, but because they started higher and management has not come yet after longhaul, as longhaul is a market with very high entry barriers, so pressure is lower.

The figures comparing BA pilot long haul costs versus European flag carriers don't support your assertion, nor would a cost comparison between BA and Virgin long haul pilots. To steal a phrase from one of our BALPA reps, you are entitled to your own views, you are not entitled to your own facts.

[Clandestino]

Originally Posted by Hand Solo

Thats why terms are under pressure in the UK. And you are not doing better in Germany because you are united, but because you have no domestic long haul competitor of significance and nothing like the market penetration of low cost carriers. They'll come, and so will the cost cutting.

Schadenfreundlich?

Anyway, it is market forces at work and market forces are in league with destiny (or kismet if you prefer). Unions are pretty powerless to do much good for their members - only thing they can do is cripple their company if they insist on attaining T&Cs the wise, knowledgeable & competent management has labeled as unrealistic. We should be happy to have any job in the current economic climate und "Maul halten und weiter dienen". Lufthansa management is sooooo magnanimous because Loofty is doing well and definitively not because VC striked to protect its T&Cs. Anyway, I suffer from delusion that VC strike actually happened and that my outfit made a few flights under LH callsign while it was underway. Must be hypoxia.

Despite having the most generous T&Cs in Europe, Lufthansa did very well last year, unlike its parent, Lufthansa group, which suffered from some spectacularly flawed investment decisions, not least of which was BMI purchase. CEOspeak currently indicates pilots will be expected to cover up for management mess-up, yet it is phrased pretty gently for the time being.

[Anton du Flasheart]

German culture is very different to the British one - this alone make Hand Solo's comments total rubbish. Don't judge everyone else by BA's values.

[Hand Solo]

All mouth no trousers again Anton. Care to substantiate your comments? I won't hold my breath.

[Clandestino]

Errr... Studi, as sworn JKGalbraithist, I wholeheartedly agree with you. I was being heavily sarcastic when describing market forces as being anything more than ideological construct. Being based in the wonderful land of Postocommunismia, it's easy for me to be cynical as we have been shafted in the name of the inevitable progress on the path marked by Marx-Engels-Lenin and then shafted again in the same manner, by the same people in the name of the democracy and free market.

Also I am too painfully aware what it means to have ineffective union.

[floss689]

Does the 34 year scale apply to all new joiners or just the cadets?

[max nightstop]

That would be all new joiners.

[indie cent]

So... Perhaps a pertinent question at this stage. How does the new BA payscale compare with a quality airline like, say, Monarch...?
If the joiner was an experienced pilot with a maximum 25 years remaining before retirement...
Any hold-poolers done the sums...?
Purely hypothetical you understand....!

[max nightstop]

Too many variables around fleet and rank to make a meaningful comparison. This is aviation, financial planning 25 days ahead is brave, 25 years would be foolhardy.

[Full Left Rudder]

I am a hold pooler and these are my thoughts -

Assuming that you aren't a captain, or expecting a command within 10 years or so (as I believe is the case at Monarch for new joiners?), then put it this way - I know of no UK airline with a higher starting salary for an FO. Then that salary rises every year.

I have seen the pay scales and they look pretty decent still, despite the new scale. Not low cost European base salaries by any stretch of the imagination, but great relative to other UK based jobs.

As always, it depends on personal circumstances with respect to command, cost of living where you are etc. But it looks to me that BA is still the best paid job in the UK when taken at face value.

[BlackandBrown]

Brian for once we agree wholeheartedly.

[4468]

brian

The very best of luck in whichever A320 outfit you currently reside.

BA isn't for everyone, and never has been. But very, very few leave having joined, and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. Please feel free to draw your own conclusions.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

It depends on how important money is to you as opposed to lifestyle. I turned my back on a command at easyjet to jump ship to BA. The hit in pay as a BA F/O versus Ezy Captain over the next 5 years will be over £200,000 and I'm maybe 15 years away from even a sniff of the LHS. But I'm here for the lifestyle, and the money is fine. I've got friends at ezy and others in the desert all enjoying either commands or tax free cash. I took a long-term view that BA was going to keep me interested and employed for another 35 years. Ezy and Emirates etc are equally safe bets. I'd just had enough of 5 earlies on min rest.

I wouldn't say I'm what you call a "BA person" and sometimes you are required to play the game a bit here to get on with everyone you are flying with. However it is BA's trainset and in return for slotting into their culture you get secure employment on good T&Cs with a choice of lifestlye and SH or LH flying - with the caveat that seniority is everything and patience is required to get to the seat you want to be in on the aircraft that goes to the places you want to go to.

[BlackandBrown]

BMRR have you ever heard of Solon's warning?

[Callsign Kilo]

Greek mythology now BlackandBrown? Maybe you see yourself as Solon? Or is it Phthonus?

Give it a rest on the BA thing would you? It's not for you, it never was, you love Easyjet, good for you. I'd be happy for you if I thought it was true.

[BlackandBrown]

Not comfortable with critical thinking, clearly. If you don't consider solon's warning apt then you are in denial.

[Callsign Kilo]

I've no problem with critical thinking. However applying Solon's warning to something as fickle as the aviation industry is either an attempt at irony or merely a case of the green eyed monster. Or are you still griping about the fact that BA turned you down?

[Full Left Rudder]

Indeed it is apt, but frankly it is also useless in a practical sense given that it can be applied to every single walk of life.

Life at easyJet is just as uncertain as life at BA. One can only act on what is known now. If that means choosing to move to BA over staying at easyJet, because what is on the table now at BA is what is personally preferred, then that is without question the wisest decision to make.