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EZY Cadet Contracts

Old 31st Jan 2012, 10:03
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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This makes solemn reading indeed.
I gained my fATPL over 2 years ago the "old fashioned" way by keeping my day job, saving, and spending as I trained the modular route.
I disagree with P2F and paying for TRs hence several IR renewals later I'm still in the day job, albeit debt free.
I can understand if someone started training before the financial crisis began and now has £80K+ of debt, the industry has changed and people are forced to take whatever is on offer to make the the loan repayments.
What I really can't comprehend is anyone ploughing in huge amounts of their (or anyone elses) cash into an industry on its knees in an economic meltdown and being prepared to work for literally nothing afterwards.
I have waited for 2+ years for these people to wake up and stop, hoping that this will bring to an end these demeaning slavery contracts.
No pension? No sick pay? No loss of licence? Paying for your uniform?
Now it seems an airport car park pass is a perk FFS!!
I hear the argument "well once you get your foot in the door you can move on to better things in a year or so".
The problem with that is we are now seeing the "better things" going the same way now, and so it will continue.
WWW if what you say is true about the queues at OAA then god knows what the contracts will be like in 12 months from now.
I'm not a negative person by nature, quite the opposite in fact, but I hold out little hope for this situation improving whilst people are blind to the big picture.
Good luck to all involved- think I might re train as a gas engineer!!
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 10:33
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As WWW says, most of us, prior to these schemes flogged around as instructors. With luck you would then progress to piston or light turbines flying any kind of work available all for crap money, sometimes for years. With a little more luck if you survived that bit, you would eventually land yourself a decent job having served your apprenticeship. £2000 to £3000 a month for being tucked up in a cosy warm Airbus with a (sometimes) experienced captain; you don't know how lucky you are. Wakey, wakey.

However, if BALPA insisted on equality of pay and contract for f/o's as achieved by our European neighbours they might be worth £10/month. Instead they decided that they were unable to represent their interests because they were not easyjet employees. Couldn't possibly get hands dirty or spend any cash on such a tricky situation, noo.
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 10:41
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Your plight is alarming, wrong, detrimental and completely your own fault.
I don't concur with all of that. Not completely. However the detrimental effect is blatant.

Somewhere along the line, in the last 4 to 7 years, something changed for the worse in airline recruitment (specifically jet recruitment). When I came up, it appeared that we were the last group of individuals who were hanging onto the self-improver route by it's balls. Stories still surfaced regarding people who travelled from CPL/IR to a FIC and then FI, turboprop or air charter/taxi then jet. However it was dying rapidly, with more and more being left in the doldrums of flight instruction - I would include myself as an example until I forced myself to do something about it i.e. 'join the heard.'

When I received my blue book and later started on my FIC, CTC appeared well underway, integrated schools were spending unholy amounts in marketing a direct path to BA etc and Ryanair was churning away at their SSTR scheme (but still taking DE FOs and offering permanent contracts to entrants - just the same as Easyjet!!). The ways to bypass those rungs on the ladder were laid out, however they weren't as prevalent as it appears today. Now new entrants are unwilling to research option. People are leaving flight school and heading directly for FR or EZY without passing Go. It's as if they have it in their heads that this is considered to be their natural progression. Someone is feeding this to wanabees and the airlines, namely the two largest LCCs, subscribe to the very fact. Hence the disgraceful terms and conditions on offer. Their price to realise a burning ambition!

The recession hasn't created a slow down, it's only added to the degradation. Credit has become more limited, however people still have access to money. Unfortunately more and more of the people shedding out the money seem both devoid of talent and ethic. Individuals are presented with a minimum fuss route to the RHS of a jet. They clearly see their piers progressing onto a 737 or an A320 in a matter of two very short years; maximum! The light becomes blinding - it's the very same wet behind the ears nonsense that always existed. Mummy and Daddy want Junior to follow his dream however know absolutely nothing about what kind of damage has been done to the industry. Unless they looked far far beyond the glossy FTO brochures and the marketing rhetoric; how would they?

People who qualified 10 to 15 years ago cannot compare what is happening today to what was considered the norm back then. It's like comparing apples to oranges. They can however accept some portion of the blame to why all this sh1t has occurred.

Last edited by Callsign Kilo; 31st Jan 2012 at 13:44.
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 11:20
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Why does line training take 8 months at Easy?
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 12:06
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You're a 21 year old interested in flying for a career.

You can spend 18 months having a ball at CTC in NZ etc with mates interested in the same thing as you.

Then hopefully get into EZY flying round Europe on a reasonable roster for £1,500 a month after loan repayments and then be set on your career.

Alternatively, you could plod on at your local flying club, become an FI on £500 a month teaching difficult students in aged aircraft whilst wondering whether it'll take ten years to get into a 320 or whether you'll just give up.

Alternatively you could get a spanking graduate job with Mr Big PLC or Big lawyer and be earning the same for an office job doing serious hours. PS - you still have to pay living expenses and that city wage doesn't go far in central London!


I really don't think it's that irrational choosing the CTC option, especially as people/parents have the money (which does take some getting used to).
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 13:13
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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FANS

Are you a shareholder in CTC? Or perhaps in easyJet?

You don't pay £100k to get a job in any other "profession". Why do we do it in ours?

What happens to that debt you incurred when your "job" disappears due to bankruptcy of your employer? It doesn't get wiped out and no-one cares. No-one is going to pay it for you.

And you knw what? You gotta find a new job. But, hey!!! There aren't any because more wannabes are working for less than you can afford to, at a.n.otherairlines inc. yet another nasty low morals outfit. But they're the only game in town but you're not qualified because you're too experienced/expensive.

Another type rating perhaps? Then you realise you can't, because you're bankrupt. And then your wife/girlfriend leaves you and you're getting to rock bottom. You have to go to China/Indonesia/Vietnam/Saudi/UAE (delete the ones you don't fancy). You don't see your friends and family for months on end.

Finally, you realise it wasn't such a good idea.

This is a situation not far from happening for a lot of greedy little grabbers.


Unbelieveably daft viewpoint IMHO.
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 13:29
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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I absolutely agree FANS. I would also add that it isn't necessarily a case of people/parents having the money, so much as them having the assets to guarantee loans for that money. For your 21 year old paying back these loans over 7 years that is a large chunk of money, but over half can be idealogically offset by mitigating what might otherwise have been university fees and expenses for four years. That is before the alternative vocational fees and costs even come into play.

These placements (for the first six months) are simply a part of the cadets advanced training. Prior to the recession (and to a limited degree even now,) some of these cadets get placed with airlines where they pay nothing for their type ratings, and where they live on flight pay/ expenses from the airline concerned, as well as a return of part of their training costs (bond) on a monthly basis. During this recession, there have been very few companies offering placements. One exception has been this large "lo-cost" company, who has written their own rules to reflect the fact they are a large buyer in a marketplace that is almost empty of buyers.

So however good or bad the reality, the option is what? As FANS has said to spend the next decade hoping something better will come along, or fritter good cash after bad trying to keep those expensively aquired licences alive on an annual basis. Whinge on internet forums, about the relative merits of modular/integrated training? Debate the wisdom of handing over cash to some dodgy outfit in Indonesia promising type ratings and vanity line training?

The training sums involved are about the same as buying a poverty spec Audi R8 or a reasonably well equipped Mercedes SL500. The car will hold around 40% of its cash value after 3 years but will earn nothing. The licence will have no cash value at all, but will enable those following this route (where available) to earn a salary.

In 7 years time (all being well) the 21 year old is now 28 with their training loans paid off and hopefully in the same boat as everybody else. They have served their apprenticeship. Financially it was a bit of a struggle? (Shrug!)
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 13:35
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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I despair, the world has gone mad.

Comparing a loan TO GET A JOB of £80+k, to a poverty R8 is just stupid.

How many 21 years old own an R8?

Actually, how many 28, 31, 41, 51 etc. year olds own an R8?

They are a LUXURY, a job is a necessity in life.
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 13:36
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Narrow Runway

I believe FANS was pointing out that there is no other option being presented to the 'greedy little grabbers.'

I work with these 'fresh out of training' cadets and they are utterly clueless about the industry. They have it pumped into them that if they don't get Easyjet or Ryanair, then they're done.

I'm not saying it's right and to be fairly honest I believe it shows an incredible level of naivety/lack of maturity. But there you are; a sign of today's 'buy now pay later' society. Yes you are probably right, a lot of these people will be paying for the decisions that they make now at a later stage. Pot-less in some back of beyond location, no meaningful social or family life with complete destain for the industry that they work in. But they can't see that when they start out and that's the main issue here.
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 13:45
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Narrow Runway

1. I’m not a shareholder in CTC or EZY PLC.

2. I wouldn’t describe it as a profession now, but that’s neither here nor there.

3. Bankruptcy is one of the few things you don’t need to worry about at EZY. Just most airlines.

4. If you must leave, your time at EZY would qualify for mainline airlines.

5. You’re getting a 320 TR which has to be the best out there, not a Saab TR.

6. People are having to move in lots of Mon-Fri jobs, with a 2 day weekend leaving no possibility of seeing friends & family.

I fully accept it’s not ideal (what is?), but if you want to fly for a living it’s the best out there. I’d rather spend £85k on CTC than £45k instructing and hoping.

The money’s actually very good for any first job (which is what it is), but zero hour contracts can leave you in a huge mess with loans to service hence one could argue that only the well off need apply.
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 13:58
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Comparing a loan TO GET A JOB of £80+k, to a poverty R8 is just stupid.
You are not buying a job, you are buying a training course with a vocational attachment. This is what that money buys you. I doubt many 21 year olds would spend this sort of money on a car, but then I doubt many 21 year olds would spend this sort of money on anything simply because they cannot raise it. However it isn't them raising it, it is the parents, Some of whom I am sure understand the illustration.
They are a LUXURY, a job is a necessity in life.
Yes, but an airline pilots job is not a necessity unless perhaps you already are one. It is an expensive vocation.
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 14:10
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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FANS/Beazlebub

1) You sound like a shareholder!

2) Why wouldn't you describe it as a profession now? Is it for unprofessional people? What is an unprofessional Captain?

3) Are easyJet immune from bankruptcy? Why?

4) What if the majors Aren't hiring at the time of you losing your job? The likelihood is they won't be.

5) Ask those experienced 737 pilots who'd like to join Ryanair, but can't, because theyre not Cadets. The airlines set the criteria and it may not suit you.

6) largely irrelevant. They're not in massive debt.

Loans shouldn't be extended to people without PERMANENT employment, this is an extension of the irrational banking boom of the last decade. The warning signs are there!!!!

Beazlebub, you're right. An airline job is nice. But it didn't used to be do expensive. You sound like a management stooge. Do you really believe what you're saying?
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 14:22
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Narrow runway,

A lot of things used to be less expensive. So what?

Whatever I may sound like to you, your assesment is unreliable.

Yes, I do believe what I am saying.
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 14:29
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I wouldn’t describe it as a profession, based on the entry requirements/those now entering this area of employment compared to solicitors/doctors etc – but that is merely my view and not relevant to the thread.

At their last financial year, EZY had £1.4 billion of cash so I’m relaxed about them being a going concern!

Why will you lose your job at EZY? That’s always a risk in any trade, and in this industry there are many that have the war wounds over the last 30 years. The problem with EZY is that you’re on zero hours.

The airlines set the criteria. That’s the most sensible thing you’ve said and explains why schemes such as CTC are the best out there currently.
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 18:05
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After reading this thread, it is obvious that regardless of anything else, as has been mentioned already, this situation has plenty of current and future subscriber's to the schemes that the likes of EZY, RYR etc., run, and therefore this "snowball" will run and pick up size and momentum until the cash runs dry, or newbies become less keen on the constantly changing offerings from the various offending airlines, and vote with their feet.

It also seems that one important point is generally missing these days, and that is whilst it is affecting the newer entrant to the aviating fold, sooner or later (sooner I suspect) the companies concerned will soon start to erode the pay and conditions of the more senior flight crew, .....because lets face it, logically it makes sense that if these new guys are paying to become an F/O for the likes of EZY because it skips a few rungs on the ladder to a nice, shiny jet, i'm sure the same companies will realise that after a few years of experience, the new "toy" of today's cadets may well be a "nice, shiny command" and whilst they may not be charged for the honour, a reduced package (compared to today) will definitely be on offer......and if exisiting senior crew choose to ignore this situation today, I suspect they will be the first victims to be put out to grass if they refuse to accept a lowering of their own hard earnt T's and C's - to clarify, I don't agree with it at all, but i can see it happening and heaven forbid, the job really is nothing more than an expensive hobby at that point
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 18:32
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It also seems that one important point is generally missing these days, and that is whilst it is affecting the newer entrant to the aviating fold, sooner or later (sooner I suspect) the companies concerned will soon start to erode the pay and conditions of the more senior flight crew, .....because lets face it, logically it makes sense that if these new guys are paying to become an F/O for the likes of EZY because it skips a few rungs on the ladder to a nice, shiny jet, i'm sure the same companies will realise that after a few years of experience, the new "toy" of today's cadets may well be a "nice, shiny command" and whilst they may not be charged for the honour, a reduced package (compared to today) will definitely be on offer......and if exisiting senior crew choose to ignore this situation today, I suspect they will be the first victims to be put out to grass if they refuse to accept a lowering of their own hard earnt T's and C's - to clarify, I don't agree with it at all, but i can see it happening and heaven forbid, the job really is nothing more than an expensive hobby at that point
Actually that is exactly what is happening now. These airlines will eventually become training schools, FO to CAPT to LTC to TRI to TRE or just a base of choice. Everyone has their little piece of utopia for which they will be willing to sell out to lower t&c's.

From my own point of view I believe it can even be taken back to those who would do anything to fly (whether it be instructing, parachuting, air ambulance, etc) for peanuts to build hours. Current management has just taken what you guys have being doing for decades in GA into the airlines.

It is very frightening to see that even at this scale, supply of new wannabes still outstrips demand! As mentioned above, this only means there is still much more scope for further downward movement in pay! I would suggest this thread would be best viewed in the wannabes section, but fear it will be easily glossed over.
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 19:27
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Isn't it ironic (no, in fact, to put it better , down -right insulting) that airlines spend all their time thinking up Compass Tests & other bullsh1t , which is somehow supposed to reflect our ability to see & subsequently react to / deal with a problem. . . . what horse manure. Totally and utterly superfluous. .
Far easier would be to see who accepts the deals on offer, & REJECT anyone thick enough to sign up for it. THAT is a test of judgement.

What a cynical paradox, that the judgement (supposedly) required to do this job, should, if exercised, prevent you even contemplating dipping your toe in the water in the current market.

I recently witnessed 7 guys being offered one of the most insulting contracts/personal financial commitments imaginable to drive 737's around Europe.
On the one hand I was sorry for them/despaired for them.
On the other hand I have to admit to feeling a degree of animosity that several of them were so willing to offer themselves up for something that was so obviously just 100% cr@p.

When you see someone willing to work for nothing, absolutely nothing, or even PAY TO FLY the fare paying public around, the only reaction is

Do none of them see that 3mths/ 1 yr down the line with 200-700 hrs on type they are unemployable, because A-not experienced enough & B - not attractive to a company who can find another mug to work for free, or better still, PAY TO WORK.
Gentlemen ( & no doubt some ladies too) some of you are no doubt very nice people , who I may enjoy to spend a day in the cockpit with, nonetheless, I despair & am totally unable to come to terms with your total inability to see the wood for the trees.

WHAT IN HELLS NAME ARE YOU DOING ? ? Did you stop a moment to consider it ?
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 21:10
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captplaystation.....couldn't agree more....you echo my sentiments entirely.

In all honesty my current situation ordinarily demands that I must follow lemming-like toward a RYR or EZY Crookfield/Flexi-Screw set-up if i'm to move ahead in my chosen career at this time. All my peers in the main advise I must do this, and they are guys who are very senior in their respective companies (mainstream airlines) and are very knowledgable, and yet inextricably as much as I know this to be sadly true, having flown as an F/o for the last 5 years (albeit admittedly on a very small a/c, AOC) I am at a stage where I have a huge reluctance in lining the pockets of senior management at aforementioned companies in order to further my career. My experience level again is limited (1000hrs+) but nonetheless relevant you would think - when I first started I remember well having conversations along the lines of "get those first 500 hrs, and the rest will naturally occur" etc., etc......again, sadly not so any more - today, I would be in a better situation employment-wise if I was fresh from training with a shiny new blue book and 200 hrs - call me bitter, but how screwy is that ?? not to take anything away from any new cadet from college, as most are superb i'm sure, but the whole situation has got oddly twisted and mixed, and now it falls to money to get you the job, rather than experience and talent. Oh, am not suggesting i'm talented for a second.....i'm not !.
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 21:32
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Oh but beazlebub there is another option, you don't have to spend a decade in the "doldrums" of flight instructing etc. The other option is don't do the training. I do not understand why you would throw £100k at flight training in the worst recession in living memory for a poxy flexi contract. Infact you would have to be mental to even contemplate it. It's all very well people saying "ah but there was nothing else on offer", well just don't do the training then. Hold on to your money, even earn some if you can, then when things pick up you'll be better placed to afford it, and also spend less time in the "doldrums" of GA etc. You all had a choice, but you decided to press on with it regardless of the warning signs. These schemes exist for one reason, and one reason only, and that's because the desperate, and dare I say it, blinkered wannabes are prepared to pay it. Narrow Runway & WWW are spot on. It's a crazy, crazy world out there.
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 22:07
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1. It's not their money

2. There isn't another option being promoted

3. What's a recession?

I believe anyone having to work for their 100K, anyone with a repayment plan; anyone with any savvy would not be training now. Genuinely.
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