Industrial Action at Flybe?
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Run in - When someone reponds to what you have written by telling you to go away and calling you a moron?
No attempt to respond to any points in my post just some name calling.
That level of intelligence is likely to vote for a pay cut as well.
Anywho, there is nothing to stop the company rostering you 6/3/6/3 for the rest of your life. Net gain = ZERO
Flybe have just made their biggest profit EVER. Your pay rise, if it's accepted, is pathetic and relative to the cost of living isn't a rise. Net gain = ZERO
I can remember 3 years worth of pay rises in the last decade. If this offer is accepted it will be 6 years worth in 13 years. How much has the cost of living gone up in the same period? More than the "pay rises". Net gain = BIG LOSS.
Remember JF had 28.5% on over £500,000.
How much did Strong get?
Middle management? 9% was it? In one year.
Management bonuses no longer linked to financial performance, they just get them now regardless.
What are you negotiating for exactly?
What are you now voting for?
If this offer is accepted, from JF's perspective it's end game. From his perspective you lot are not even strong enough to negotiate an RPI plus pay RISE and a vast, necessary, improvement in scheduling/Ts&Cs.
You will have accepted a mediocre, at best, offer after 18 months of negotiating.
That is all you will ever get from now on.
No attempt to respond to any points in my post just some name calling.
That level of intelligence is likely to vote for a pay cut as well.
Anywho, there is nothing to stop the company rostering you 6/3/6/3 for the rest of your life. Net gain = ZERO
Flybe have just made their biggest profit EVER. Your pay rise, if it's accepted, is pathetic and relative to the cost of living isn't a rise. Net gain = ZERO
I can remember 3 years worth of pay rises in the last decade. If this offer is accepted it will be 6 years worth in 13 years. How much has the cost of living gone up in the same period? More than the "pay rises". Net gain = BIG LOSS.
Remember JF had 28.5% on over £500,000.
How much did Strong get?
Middle management? 9% was it? In one year.
Management bonuses no longer linked to financial performance, they just get them now regardless.
What are you negotiating for exactly?
What are you now voting for?
If this offer is accepted, from JF's perspective it's end game. From his perspective you lot are not even strong enough to negotiate an RPI plus pay RISE and a vast, necessary, improvement in scheduling/Ts&Cs.
You will have accepted a mediocre, at best, offer after 18 months of negotiating.
That is all you will ever get from now on.
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How easily it seems everyone has rolled over to let JF and his boy tickle your tums. The directors and managers must be laughing their heads off right now. Minimal cost to avoid IA, they're still on track to make massive bonuses (read the accounts to see just how much), and you lot are voting yes to what amounts to a real terms 0.5% pay rise.
What's that in your pocket every month? Less than £10 for most FOs. Oh, and a vague promise to stand you down from standby. Maybe. If you're lucky. How many crews have bitched over the last umpteen pages about how hard they work, with no standby duties left uncalled? Really think it's going to get better?
Mugs.
What's that in your pocket every month? Less than £10 for most FOs. Oh, and a vague promise to stand you down from standby. Maybe. If you're lucky. How many crews have bitched over the last umpteen pages about how hard they work, with no standby duties left uncalled? Really think it's going to get better?
Mugs.
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It's a big fat NO from me. SFO is a farce good luck getting a sim slot. 2012/13 is still capped. It's a joke.
Balpa and JF have chewed you up and spat you out in bubbles. Sooner I leave this excuse for an airline the better. The only ones left will be the naive and those not good enough.
Bye.
Balpa and JF have chewed you up and spat you out in bubbles. Sooner I leave this excuse for an airline the better. The only ones left will be the naive and those not good enough.
Bye.
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
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Lord Spandex Masher it is so easy to prevaricate on the fortunes of others and pronounce on a deal that you're not involved with. I do not comment on the T’s & C’s of other airlines, partly because I don’t know the details, and partly because I’m not interested. This is a public forum so you can have your say, but for me it is entirely invalid comment if you don’t have to suffer the consequences of the decision, hence my (ok, agreed, rather blunt) suggestion that you keep quiet. It’s a shame that we don’t make more use of the Flybe private forum for these discussions!
To everyone who this matters to, I say this is a transition from a bit player in the “toy” airline market to a serious contender in Europe, things won’t be perfect immediately (if ever) but every airline has taken lots of little steps to get where they are, going for more at this stage (in my humble opinion) is loading the gun and pointing it at your foot!
What was it you said about petulant name calling?
Oh, and by the way, not that it’s relevant at all, but “PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour” was bestowed on me but a fellow PPRuNer for a (perceived) act of gallantry back in May 2000 at the “AshBash”, you know, the year 2000 when there were people on PPRuNe who had positive things to say and were helpful!!!
To everyone who this matters to, I say this is a transition from a bit player in the “toy” airline market to a serious contender in Europe, things won’t be perfect immediately (if ever) but every airline has taken lots of little steps to get where they are, going for more at this stage (in my humble opinion) is loading the gun and pointing it at your foot!
I assume that you can read.
Hopefully the rest of the intelligent people at Flybe....
Oh, and by the way, not that it’s relevant at all, but “PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour” was bestowed on me but a fellow PPRuNer for a (perceived) act of gallantry back in May 2000 at the “AshBash”, you know, the year 2000 when there were people on PPRuNe who had positive things to say and were helpful!!!
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Well I am interested in Flybe, it was my first airline job and I do have a bit of a soft spot for it. That and the many friends I have who still work there.
Plus I've never precluded a return to the fold, as it were, so my interest, both personal and professional, does matter. If you don't like it then hard cheese.
So you go ahead and accept the first real offer that has been tabled and prepare yourself for years more ineffective negotiations with little or no improvement to your current deal. You are now where you should have been 18 months ago and this should have been the starting point for these ongoing negotiations. You keep subsidising ticket prices and JF's supercars and his million pound apartment in Knightsbridge and management's interest free loans.
Or you could keep the pressure on the airline that, from the middle of a recession, has made the most money in one year that it ever has. You know that they can afford more than they have offered. They wouldn't have offered it otherwise would they?
"Things" should have been perfect years ago! The little steps you mention should have been happening for the last 20 years but you (Balpa/the pilot group) have allowed them to stagnate and now you're trying to play catch up against a pilot hating CEO who has zero interest in what you can afford in your limited time off.
If this offer is accepted then good luck in ever getting anything worthwhile.
Yeah, well you started it. Just responding in kind.
Plus I've never precluded a return to the fold, as it were, so my interest, both personal and professional, does matter. If you don't like it then hard cheese.
So you go ahead and accept the first real offer that has been tabled and prepare yourself for years more ineffective negotiations with little or no improvement to your current deal. You are now where you should have been 18 months ago and this should have been the starting point for these ongoing negotiations. You keep subsidising ticket prices and JF's supercars and his million pound apartment in Knightsbridge and management's interest free loans.
Or you could keep the pressure on the airline that, from the middle of a recession, has made the most money in one year that it ever has. You know that they can afford more than they have offered. They wouldn't have offered it otherwise would they?
"Things" should have been perfect years ago! The little steps you mention should have been happening for the last 20 years but you (Balpa/the pilot group) have allowed them to stagnate and now you're trying to play catch up against a pilot hating CEO who has zero interest in what you can afford in your limited time off.
If this offer is accepted then good luck in ever getting anything worthwhile.
What was it you said about petulant name calling?
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LSM.
You have to admit, it's easy for you to come in here preaching what we should or shouldn't do, that's also easy for someone like you who is probably sat pretty on his fat wallet salary with a bigger airline. What exactly did you achieve when you were here last? Alot of us have only inherited the legacy you left behind. You're on your high horse about it all, but what exactly did you do to improve things? It's all very easy to preach now you've left hey?
You have to admit, it's easy for you to come in here preaching what we should or shouldn't do, that's also easy for someone like you who is probably sat pretty on his fat wallet salary with a bigger airline. What exactly did you achieve when you were here last? Alot of us have only inherited the legacy you left behind. You're on your high horse about it all, but what exactly did you do to improve things? It's all very easy to preach now you've left hey?
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CC, fair comments. When I say the "pilot group allowed...etc" I do count myself in that number when I was at Flybe.
Balpa has only been recognised at Flybe for what, 5 years or so. It should have been sooner and the pressure applied to management should have been bigger. As it was that kind of pressure never existed until recently, I'm pretty certain that it would have been quashed swiftly without Balpa.
So we are all at fault.
I'm not on my high horse about it, I just want a better dealf for you, my friends and my ex-colleagues. Don't worry though, my attitude to Flybe's management is the same as the one I currently display to my present employer.
You do have to ask yourself though how did those pilots at other airlines get a better deal than Flybe? Pressure, that's all and that's all I'm suggesting to you now.
Balpa has only been recognised at Flybe for what, 5 years or so. It should have been sooner and the pressure applied to management should have been bigger. As it was that kind of pressure never existed until recently, I'm pretty certain that it would have been quashed swiftly without Balpa.
So we are all at fault.
I'm not on my high horse about it, I just want a better dealf for you, my friends and my ex-colleagues. Don't worry though, my attitude to Flybe's management is the same as the one I currently display to my present employer.
You do have to ask yourself though how did those pilots at other airlines get a better deal than Flybe? Pressure, that's all and that's all I'm suggesting to you now.
I made a comment round about Page 38 about this sorry saga.
I am glad that you all find this a wonderful offer from management.
I call it pathetic and if you agree to this, your future does not look good.
Well done management, you have won again and you will be able to take another huge increase in your package later in the year when the dust has settled.
I am glad that you all find this a wonderful offer from management.
I call it pathetic and if you agree to this, your future does not look good.
Well done management, you have won again and you will be able to take another huge increase in your package later in the year when the dust has settled.
I do apologies. I was the union man for a long time including the Teamsters.
I just felt that you have all rolled over on your backs and accepted the first offer that came up from management.
In my opinion, you should have rejected this offer. You may live to regret it.
I just felt that you have all rolled over on your backs and accepted the first offer that came up from management.
In my opinion, you should have rejected this offer. You may live to regret it.
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This is no "roll over" I believe the management have a clear message from the workforce this time round and will stand us in good stead for the next round! I also think there is a balance between being paid well and being paid well securely! At the end of the day we need the company to be in profit. Greed can take over and we know what happens when the profit disappears. One step at a time I say....
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Always wondered why we got those self-congratulatory newsletters, who exactly is it aimed at? You're right HT, that reads more like a press release, the tacky picture I think you're referring to is from Anna Aero's website though, so you can't blame somebody's photoshopping skills down at the Death Star 
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Airhart, I don't know how many times you need to hear it but Flybe have just made their largest profit ever. It won't disappear if you get a pay "rise" rather than a pay "stay the same relatively".
Maybe the management will have to take smaller bonuses. Bonuses that they will get regardless of their performance. That's just changed by the way, did you notice it?
Look at it from JF's seat. He'll drag things out as long as necessary and then magically you get an offer of a pay rise of almost what Balpa asked for to start with. He will expect, and you are proving him right, that most of you will think that he's been pushed into a corner and had to back down. He hasn't. He's played you all like a two bit piccolo and if you accept this offer he'll be laughing all the way to the bank with his huge bonus that he didn't have to do anything for in his R8 that he can afford because the rest of the workforce are so cheap.
If you accept this measly offer of no pay rise what makes you think that you can ever get anything better out of Flybe? You're going to go on strike again are you? Like you did last time...no wait, you didn't. You accepted a crappy offer so that's what you'll get again.
Maybe the management will have to take smaller bonuses. Bonuses that they will get regardless of their performance. That's just changed by the way, did you notice it?
Look at it from JF's seat. He'll drag things out as long as necessary and then magically you get an offer of a pay rise of almost what Balpa asked for to start with. He will expect, and you are proving him right, that most of you will think that he's been pushed into a corner and had to back down. He hasn't. He's played you all like a two bit piccolo and if you accept this offer he'll be laughing all the way to the bank with his huge bonus that he didn't have to do anything for in his R8 that he can afford because the rest of the workforce are so cheap.
If you accept this measly offer of no pay rise what makes you think that you can ever get anything better out of Flybe? You're going to go on strike again are you? Like you did last time...no wait, you didn't. You accepted a crappy offer so that's what you'll get again.
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Its a much better worded deal! Im sure a PR expert has done it! But the money is still short! The scheduling is nice and fluffy but come on look at the wording! Look at it in real terms you know how crewing will see it! JSMC one member from each side but if a dispute occurs GM decides do you really believe the sword will fall on the company side?
Sorry the trust has gone! If this had been the first offer I think it would have gone through, but now I see it still as a NO!
Sorry the trust has gone! If this had been the first offer I think it would have gone through, but now I see it still as a NO!
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Airhart, nope, I wrote that before I had seen the latest financial report. I also made that comment, if I recall correctly, in response to another comment along the lines of "you knew what the deal was so tough, you shouldn't expect anything else". I knew what the deal was when I joined, so did everybody else but do you think that we should never get a pay rise or improvement in lifestyle?
I don't. I expect an improvement in lifestyle the longer I work. I do not expect to be earning the same, relatively, in 30 years time as I do know. If you're happy with that, fine.
RPI rises should be the absolute minimum, every year. They should not be the final result after 18 months of negotiation. Especially following a record profit in a recession.
That profit was possibly partly because you and I did not have a pay rise for a number of years. The management benefited from it, the company benefited from it so why shouldn't we?
Come on, get a grip.
I don't. I expect an improvement in lifestyle the longer I work. I do not expect to be earning the same, relatively, in 30 years time as I do know. If you're happy with that, fine.
RPI rises should be the absolute minimum, every year. They should not be the final result after 18 months of negotiation. Especially following a record profit in a recession.
That profit was possibly partly because you and I did not have a pay rise for a number of years. The management benefited from it, the company benefited from it so why shouldn't we?
Come on, get a grip.
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For those who stil believe that this is the best deal the company can afford, go to the Flybe website, click on the 'Investors' link, read the accounts and tot up just how much money the board are prepared to set aside to pay bonuses of 100% of salary plus extras to all the directors. I make that considerably more money than they have claimed it is costing to fund the measly 'improvements' to your Ts & Cs. Read JF's statements regarding the 'strong' position of the company's finances and trading, and the obvious optimism over the future. No hint there that we are only just scraping a living and teeter on the brink of financial oblivion.
If this pathetic deal is accepted, then it just shows that the pervious 50 something pages of threats, posturing, big, brave words and name calling is only so much hot air. All mouth and no trousers, just as the management knew you all would be. That's why you've got nowhere with these negotiations. The £3 grand for SFOs is only the £3 grand they stole from you all 5 years ago to stop the last big threat to the company, so in effect, not really a pay rise at all.
Anyone who thinks that in 2 years time a massively improved offer will materialise id frankly delusional. You've been had by the board, and this was with a strong bargaining position. In 2 years I doubt they will give you the time of day. They will hardly hear you for all the laughing on the way to the bank.
This is a golden opportunity to actually drive home a deal that makes a difference - i.e; a substantial move towards a more competitive pay deal and a SA that is much closer to the Blue Sky agreement. No more of this fannying about with a few more hours off here and there, and a possibility of the odd standby being dropped for a SDD.
If this pathetic deal is accepted, then it just shows that the pervious 50 something pages of threats, posturing, big, brave words and name calling is only so much hot air. All mouth and no trousers, just as the management knew you all would be. That's why you've got nowhere with these negotiations. The £3 grand for SFOs is only the £3 grand they stole from you all 5 years ago to stop the last big threat to the company, so in effect, not really a pay rise at all.
Anyone who thinks that in 2 years time a massively improved offer will materialise id frankly delusional. You've been had by the board, and this was with a strong bargaining position. In 2 years I doubt they will give you the time of day. They will hardly hear you for all the laughing on the way to the bank.
This is a golden opportunity to actually drive home a deal that makes a difference - i.e; a substantial move towards a more competitive pay deal and a SA that is much closer to the Blue Sky agreement. No more of this fannying about with a few more hours off here and there, and a possibility of the odd standby being dropped for a SDD.
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Has French offered you the deal you wanted - to the letter?
If the answer is 'no', refuse the offer. This agreement suits nobody else but French and his managers who you all seem to despise so much.
The reason he has made this offer is because it suits him; it's as easy as that. Your company can afford to settle this and meet every demand you made but it appears that all French has had to do is wave a bit of money under the noses of a few and sound amenable on the SA; some of you think its Xmas.
There has been much bravado about strike action and that is what you should still be holding over French to get exactly what you want. If you give up on this, then all crediblity and any future negotiation with management will be laughed out of court.
Don't capitulate now. Have you noticed that Virgin settled on the back of planned strike action?
If the answer is 'no', refuse the offer. This agreement suits nobody else but French and his managers who you all seem to despise so much.
The reason he has made this offer is because it suits him; it's as easy as that. Your company can afford to settle this and meet every demand you made but it appears that all French has had to do is wave a bit of money under the noses of a few and sound amenable on the SA; some of you think its Xmas.
There has been much bravado about strike action and that is what you should still be holding over French to get exactly what you want. If you give up on this, then all crediblity and any future negotiation with management will be laughed out of court.
Don't capitulate now. Have you noticed that Virgin settled on the back of planned strike action?