Ryanair exodus, what is the plan?
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On an old FR contract - Happy with my job - and fly everyday to the best of my ability.
There are no safety issues at FR - if there were I would be long gone.
Unfortunately there is no future at FR as there is always the guarantee of a steady reduction in our terms and conditions.
There is a glimmer of hope, if enough of us are willing to make a stance, all you need to do is register on REPAWEB. There is a massive campaign going on in the background. It won't be easy as we have not inherited a Union like most of the bashers here (or armchair FS operators).
This tread is about the number of pilots leaving - which is massive and soon to increase.
If you want to claim FR is unsafe - please produce facts and not fiction.
There are no safety issues at FR - if there were I would be long gone.
Unfortunately there is no future at FR as there is always the guarantee of a steady reduction in our terms and conditions.
There is a glimmer of hope, if enough of us are willing to make a stance, all you need to do is register on REPAWEB. There is a massive campaign going on in the background. It won't be easy as we have not inherited a Union like most of the bashers here (or armchair FS operators).
This tread is about the number of pilots leaving - which is massive and soon to increase.
If you want to claim FR is unsafe - please produce facts and not fiction.
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Ryan air will do their outmost to decrease t/c . That has been their main goal and strategy for years. Why else so many as Brookfield selfemployed contracts. Selfemployed contracts can be terminated without any reason, an employee can not. This boogy contracts are the sole reason for splitting the pilot group and makes shure that management gets free from any union.
If the older on good contracts ( hence employee) should start the union, make it public, but do not start negotiation with ryanairs management.they cannot terminate employees legally. Make shure you unionize selfemployed first trough Repa. Then go for industrial action, make shure self employed only fly according to roster and stby to protect the selfemployed employee, your demand should be the right for proper employee contracts.that will create what ryanair fairs the most, unity among pilots.
Flight deck crew has alot of power, just afraid to use it. Industrial action will force ryanair to the knee, and protect our profession.
Good luck, the hole europeen aviators are depending on you for better good.
If the older on good contracts ( hence employee) should start the union, make it public, but do not start negotiation with ryanairs management.they cannot terminate employees legally. Make shure you unionize selfemployed first trough Repa. Then go for industrial action, make shure self employed only fly according to roster and stby to protect the selfemployed employee, your demand should be the right for proper employee contracts.that will create what ryanair fairs the most, unity among pilots.
Flight deck crew has alot of power, just afraid to use it. Industrial action will force ryanair to the knee, and protect our profession.
Good luck, the hole europeen aviators are depending on you for better good.
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Built4speed....
Am I management? no
(just thought i'd add a few of these to keep you smiling!)
I havn't said anything is perfect, far from it....but when people make comments relating to the safety of the airline I felt I had to respond, in very general terms
FR1A "If you want to claim FR is unsafe - please produce facts and not fiction" .....exactly
off to REPA, see ya
Am I management? no
(just thought i'd add a few of these to keep you smiling!)I havn't said anything is perfect, far from it....but when people make comments relating to the safety of the airline I felt I had to respond, in very general terms
FR1A "If you want to claim FR is unsafe - please produce facts and not fiction" .....exactly
off to REPA, see ya
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MichaelKnight.....
nice reply, but you are mistaken about me being a me feiner.
Have been a member of the union shorty after the day I joined. The same union that pays for the website (REPAWEB) to try and get us all together, but to no avail as of yet.
You have clearly not read and understood my post - so get off your high horse.
Remember if you ever get into a situation and have to pull out the QRH - please read and understand the text in front of you.
If you are still unsure you could always get your car to read PPRUNE for you.
As a father of three, the last person i think about is myself.
Have you joined the exodus yet (fly Dubai) or are you staying to join in the fight to protect and improve things at FR?
nice reply, but you are mistaken about me being a me feiner.
Have been a member of the union shorty after the day I joined. The same union that pays for the website (REPAWEB) to try and get us all together, but to no avail as of yet.
You have clearly not read and understood my post - so get off your high horse.
Remember if you ever get into a situation and have to pull out the QRH - please read and understand the text in front of you.
If you are still unsure you could always get your car to read PPRUNE for you.
As a father of three, the last person i think about is myself.
Have you joined the exodus yet (fly Dubai) or are you staying to join in the fight to protect and improve things at FR?
Last edited by FR1A; 13th Jun 2011 at 00:38.
L'enfant Terrible
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pilotcop, no one is saying that Ryanair is unsafe (I don't fly your aeroplanes and thus have no insider knowledge). But is there anything wrong with professionals commenting on what we see as 'the holes lining up' (regarding rostering and company culture) in order to prevent the accident? I maintain that no decent human being wishes a hull loss on anybody.
We're doing exactly that in my own company and I for one can't understand this Stockholm Syndrome some FR pilots display towards their management. I've plenty of friends in your company and would love to see your T&Cs improve, it's good for the industry as a whole! I'd advise you separate the justified bashing of your management from any perceived feeling against your pilot workforce.
We're doing exactly that in my own company and I for one can't understand this Stockholm Syndrome some FR pilots display towards their management. I've plenty of friends in your company and would love to see your T&Cs improve, it's good for the industry as a whole! I'd advise you separate the justified bashing of your management from any perceived feeling against your pilot workforce.
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Listen guys this post has descended into a flight safety arguement after my original post which was meant to be a joke. I never questioned FR's training and safety record in fact I applauded it, the point I was making was that because their training standards are so good they are losing high quality pilots in their droves to the legacy airlines.
The joke I made was that if they employed "shyte" pilots and provided "shyte" training the pilots would not then be attractive to other airlines and therefore another mass exodus would not be likely to occur in and therefore they should incorporate this in the business plan.
Jeesh no senssome of you guys have no sense of humour for being intelligent men.
The joke I made was that if they employed "shyte" pilots and provided "shyte" training the pilots would not then be attractive to other airlines and therefore another mass exodus would not be likely to occur in and therefore they should incorporate this in the business plan.
Jeesh no senssome of you guys have no sense of humour for being intelligent men.
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The reality is at the moment is that a large number of Ryanair pilots are standing up for themselves threw joining REPA and there associated unions.
We need to believe in our selves as a workforce that we can change the way we are treated,I believe that we are coming to that realisation.
As anger and activism replace hoplessness and fear we are nearer to achieving a union in a ridiculously greedy Airline.
Keep up the work people,It is actually easier than we think to achieve here.
We need to believe in our selves as a workforce that we can change the way we are treated,I believe that we are coming to that realisation.
As anger and activism replace hoplessness and fear we are nearer to achieving a union in a ridiculously greedy Airline.
Keep up the work people,It is actually easier than we think to achieve here.
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@Smith,
Without entering into the discussion about the quality of the training in Ryanair
, I would like to tell you that another very important reason why Ryanair's pilots are well accepted by other companies is because they are easier to please 
due to the fact that they come from an airline where they have to pay for everything and they are badly treated by their management...
It is a way for some of these companies to avoid to raise their conditions by showing to their own pilots how easy they can find plenty of pilots happy to work for them....
This is not speculation it is exactly what I have heard from one of those company's management guy.
Without entering into the discussion about the quality of the training in Ryanair
, I would like to tell you that another very important reason why Ryanair's pilots are well accepted by other companies is because they are easier to please due to the fact that they come from an airline where they have to pay for everything and they are badly treated by their management...It is a way for some of these companies to avoid to raise their conditions by showing to their own pilots how easy they can find plenty of pilots happy to work for them....
This is not speculation it is exactly what I have heard from one of those company's management guy.
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"Easier to please" true but that is not the reason we are taken by the bigger carriers!! The loco biz model DEPENDS on not having a crash! Otherwise everyone says "they cut costs and undermined safety! This is the reason ryr and easyjet guys are so well trained!
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@Irishpilot1990,
If you want to believe that it is the main reason why they are hired , no problem for me.
All I know is that each time I speak with a pilot from a different airline they all think that they are the best trained and proficient pilots... You must all be right then...
But after so many years in aviation I can tell you that in general and everywhere the average quality of the training has been reduced.
The main reason is the fact that the number of hours of training I get today is half the one I had years ago...
The ground course are mainly given by sitting in front of a computer while when I started we had a nice professional in front of us to answer any question we may have and in the manual we have less and less information made available to us...
If you want to believe that it is the main reason why they are hired , no problem for me.
All I know is that each time I speak with a pilot from a different airline they all think that they are the best trained and proficient pilots... You must all be right then...
But after so many years in aviation I can tell you that in general and everywhere the average quality of the training has been reduced.
The main reason is the fact that the number of hours of training I get today is half the one I had years ago...
The ground course are mainly given by sitting in front of a computer while when I started we had a nice professional in front of us to answer any question we may have and in the manual we have less and less information made available to us...
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pilotcop,
most of the time, but what about the week out of base, on earlies, commuting on day 0 and day 6, four sector days, 20 2 hour flights in total. All this at an unfamiliar base, mostly new destinations - more opportunities for gotchas than when you're in your comfort zone. common sense tells me this is bull$hit. If you think this is a good way of life pilotcop, i'm sure you'll be appreciated - you sound like an asset to the company and you're in the best possible place - that much is certain.
idiotic statement. if you get up at 3:30 in the morning to drive somewhere to catch an early flight to the far side of europe, it should be on your rostered duty hours.
This Loco stuff will sort itself out one way or another. They've been fortunate to be able to recruit a higher caliber of pilot over the last few years than they deserve but the signs are that the trend is reversing. That isn't speculation, i've heard that from various sources and its about time.
flight crew on last flight of a 5/3 roster....so what, the roster is stable, sufficient time for rest
operating out of base.....positioning on days off, ok it can be annoying, doesn't make me any more tired
This Loco stuff will sort itself out one way or another. They've been fortunate to be able to recruit a higher caliber of pilot over the last few years than they deserve but the signs are that the trend is reversing. That isn't speculation, i've heard that from various sources and its about time.
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A bit off topic. Jet Airways is conducting a recruitment Road Show in STN, LTN, MCT, LGW and DUB starting this week, with assessments in the UK at the end of the end of the month.
A former FR chap is travelling as a participating member of the presenters. May be worth a visit for a commutable contract especially for the older folks.
Go to the Jet Airways Web site for the schedule. Set your geographic location to UK and then when the dust settles, click careers.
Between 10:00 a.m and 4:00 p.m at:
Stanstead, UK
Venue: Radisson Stansted Airport Hotel
Date: 14 – 15 June, 2011
Crawley, UK
Venue: Hilton London Gatwick Airport
Date: 16 – 17, June, 2011
Manchester, UK
Venue: Radisson Blu Hotel, Manchester Airport
Date: 18 – 19 June, 2011
Dublin, Ireland
Venue: Radisson SAS , Dublin Airport
Date: 21 – 22, June 2011
Dublin, Ireland
Venue: Radisson SAS , Dublin Airport
Date: 21 – 22, June 2011
A former FR chap is travelling as a participating member of the presenters. May be worth a visit for a commutable contract especially for the older folks
.Go to the Jet Airways Web site for the schedule. Set your geographic location to UK and then when the dust settles, click careers.
Between 10:00 a.m and 4:00 p.m at:
Stanstead, UK
Venue: Radisson Stansted Airport Hotel
Date: 14 – 15 June, 2011
Crawley, UK
Venue: Hilton London Gatwick Airport
Date: 16 – 17, June, 2011
Manchester, UK
Venue: Radisson Blu Hotel, Manchester Airport
Date: 18 – 19 June, 2011
Dublin, Ireland
Venue: Radisson SAS , Dublin Airport
Date: 21 – 22, June 2011
Dublin, Ireland
Venue: Radisson SAS , Dublin Airport
Date: 21 – 22, June 2011
Last edited by captjns; 14th Jun 2011 at 08:02.
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Jet Airways - Require NG Captains only
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@Brother Rice,
You see that's where we , pilots , have a big problem.
It seems to be always only about money , money and money...
To leave Ryanair I don't need to be paid more ( at least this is not my priority ) , I need to find a place where I will be happy to live and stay for long term where I will be better treated by the management where the safety culture is good and where each time I go to work it is not to seat besides somebody complaining about the company he or she is working for....
Can you understand that ? Or do you believe that money can sort out all the other problems ?
But unfortunately I think you are right , if Ryanair was giving all the pilots 20 % salary increase many will become quiet again...
I hope I am not the only one thinking that money is not everything , we obviously need a certain amount of money to be able to have a nice and sweet life but after that there are more important things than having more money ( at least that's what I think )
You see that's where we , pilots , have a big problem.
It seems to be always only about money , money and money...
To leave Ryanair I don't need to be paid more ( at least this is not my priority ) , I need to find a place where I will be happy to live and stay for long term where I will be better treated by the management where the safety culture is good and where each time I go to work it is not to seat besides somebody complaining about the company he or she is working for....
Can you understand that ? Or do you believe that money can sort out all the other problems ?
But unfortunately I think you are right , if Ryanair was giving all the pilots 20 % salary increase many will become quiet again...
I hope I am not the only one thinking that money is not everything , we obviously need a certain amount of money to be able to have a nice and sweet life but after that there are more important things than having more money ( at least that's what I think )
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Dubai going although I agree with you sentiments about quality of life etc for me at least I need more money from Ryanair to achieve this.
I am probably one of the unlucky long timers in FR who has moved bases on perm contract twice for family reasons.
Each time I moved I was given a new take it or leave it contract with less pay each time. On top of this we have received significant tax increases in Ireland reducing salaries further.
I would not consider it a fair policy that FR have adopted. My last and final base change was from a small continental base back to Dublin where the cost of living is double. I was earning a higher basic salary while I was abroad and now have had my salary systematically destroyed by the company. It very depressing to see some young Captains who have been in the company half the time earning more on the basic salary and same time joiners earning up to 20k more on basic as the have not done any base change.
I am not looking for sympathy as it was my choices to move for the family but it is really leaving me feeling unmotivated and depressed by the whole set up. There is no fairness in this company and it now saddens me that I am actively looking to get out for the money and respect I deserve, as I would have loved to have stayed with the great bunch of colleagues I have got to know over the 10 years + I have been there.
Nothing will change except get leaner ie more reductions, as the company finds tougher times ahead in the future. The only thing that will save the pilots is a UNION. If you are a FR pilot brookie or perm I would urge you to join REPAWEB educate yourself and start getting involved to protect your future.
I am probably one of the unlucky long timers in FR who has moved bases on perm contract twice for family reasons.
Each time I moved I was given a new take it or leave it contract with less pay each time. On top of this we have received significant tax increases in Ireland reducing salaries further.
I would not consider it a fair policy that FR have adopted. My last and final base change was from a small continental base back to Dublin where the cost of living is double. I was earning a higher basic salary while I was abroad and now have had my salary systematically destroyed by the company. It very depressing to see some young Captains who have been in the company half the time earning more on the basic salary and same time joiners earning up to 20k more on basic as the have not done any base change.
I am not looking for sympathy as it was my choices to move for the family but it is really leaving me feeling unmotivated and depressed by the whole set up. There is no fairness in this company and it now saddens me that I am actively looking to get out for the money and respect I deserve, as I would have loved to have stayed with the great bunch of colleagues I have got to know over the 10 years + I have been there.
Nothing will change except get leaner ie more reductions, as the company finds tougher times ahead in the future. The only thing that will save the pilots is a UNION. If you are a FR pilot brookie or perm I would urge you to join REPAWEB educate yourself and start getting involved to protect your future.
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At last, someone talking sense...... Money is not everything. You 'd be surprise how rarely pay comes up as a factor in company surveys and exit interviews. Yes remember those? The problem for FR is that MOL doesn't realise that people can for very little capital injection, give a far greater return than capital employed. He has publicly said he does not understand the concept and at present is probably costing FR far more than he really benefits the business now. The figures at the end of 11/12 will look good again but will hide the extent of actual crewing issues.
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I've tried this simple question to various pilot colleagues who work for various airlines in the early stages of their careers.
" can you see yourself staying in ths company/job/lifestyle for the next 25years?"
Alll the legacy/major older airline guys said yes; all the LoCo's said no.
The latter is not seen as a career, the former is. That is what has to change, but sadly the management have their head in the sand and are in denial over such a matter. Until there is that change there will always be this feeling of despondance lower down the food chain. Considering the profits and productivity of the LoCo's they should not be lower down the food chain. When it comes to T's & C's, and that includes employer/employee relationship my friends are agast at what we have to absorb. Many things would be unthinkable in their world. And it's not only airlines. I have friends who are middle managers in conventional ground job,s on half my income, and they are appalled at the behaviour of managements in all the 7 airlines I've worked for. It would have been unthinkable to them; and that has been within airlines in 4 different countries/c ultures. The national cultures would have made it unacceptable to treat normal middle/senior managers (or even the plain indians) with the contempt they treated us pilots and cabin crew. The airline managers themselves would never have accepted such treatment.
There in lies the rub. Somewhere there is an airline management training college where these values are being taught; because it is the same all over. Let's find and nuke that college.
" can you see yourself staying in ths company/job/lifestyle for the next 25years?"
Alll the legacy/major older airline guys said yes; all the LoCo's said no.
The latter is not seen as a career, the former is. That is what has to change, but sadly the management have their head in the sand and are in denial over such a matter. Until there is that change there will always be this feeling of despondance lower down the food chain. Considering the profits and productivity of the LoCo's they should not be lower down the food chain. When it comes to T's & C's, and that includes employer/employee relationship my friends are agast at what we have to absorb. Many things would be unthinkable in their world. And it's not only airlines. I have friends who are middle managers in conventional ground job,s on half my income, and they are appalled at the behaviour of managements in all the 7 airlines I've worked for. It would have been unthinkable to them; and that has been within airlines in 4 different countries/c ultures. The national cultures would have made it unacceptable to treat normal middle/senior managers (or even the plain indians) with the contempt they treated us pilots and cabin crew. The airline managers themselves would never have accepted such treatment.
There in lies the rub. Somewhere there is an airline management training college where these values are being taught; because it is the same all over. Let's find and nuke that college.