Ryanair exodus, what is the plan?
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USSR??
Never heard of the minimum wages for factory workers, minimum wages for ship crew and officers, minimum wages for doctors, minimum wages for lawyers, minimum wages for bank clerks? Those are called national or category contracts, or agreements, and are valid nowdays, the great free market era, to regulate the market.
The pilot category is one of the many, unfortunate catergories without such a baseline agreement, so virtually a pilot can work for free, without anything being illegal or immoral.
D
Never heard of the minimum wages for factory workers, minimum wages for ship crew and officers, minimum wages for doctors, minimum wages for lawyers, minimum wages for bank clerks? Those are called national or category contracts, or agreements, and are valid nowdays, the great free market era, to regulate the market.
The pilot category is one of the many, unfortunate catergories without such a baseline agreement, so virtually a pilot can work for free, without anything being illegal or immoral.
D
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There is no such thing as free trade. Every trade is governed and regulated, every exchange of money or goods has minimums and maximum, even the stock exchange gets governed if it hits a certain % of + or - .
What you say it is the classic example of a now old belief: the contrary of free trade is the dark ages.
The contrary, the dark ages are now, with people having to scream "i work for less" until they can actually get the job, even if that will make them not able to pay the bills of services and buy the food from the same country where their job is considered worthless.
Governing the free trade is the only way to be a trade in a democratic and peaceful world, the rest is caos. The only way to stop the cyclic crisis from happening is to have an index value for the work of people, based on which the market can adjust up or down,with a degree of freedom depending on current season, but not wildly. We cannot have a 737 captain flying from A to B getting half of the same 737 guy taking off 5 min later to the same destination, just because so the first airline can make a bigger profit out of him.
Fuel costs are the same all over europe plus or minus, and the rest of the expenses for airlines are quite well regulated, taxes, maintenance, handling.
Only workforce costs are going wildly up and down, because the governments never did anything to stop the FREE TRADE of humans!
back to the 1700s
D
What you say it is the classic example of a now old belief: the contrary of free trade is the dark ages.
The contrary, the dark ages are now, with people having to scream "i work for less" until they can actually get the job, even if that will make them not able to pay the bills of services and buy the food from the same country where their job is considered worthless.
Governing the free trade is the only way to be a trade in a democratic and peaceful world, the rest is caos. The only way to stop the cyclic crisis from happening is to have an index value for the work of people, based on which the market can adjust up or down,with a degree of freedom depending on current season, but not wildly. We cannot have a 737 captain flying from A to B getting half of the same 737 guy taking off 5 min later to the same destination, just because so the first airline can make a bigger profit out of him.
Fuel costs are the same all over europe plus or minus, and the rest of the expenses for airlines are quite well regulated, taxes, maintenance, handling.
Only workforce costs are going wildly up and down, because the governments never did anything to stop the FREE TRADE of humans!
back to the 1700s
D
Last edited by Damianik; 9th Jan 2011 at 15:39.
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Interesting theory Damianik,
First you make a capitalistic deal with the devil selling your soul to the highest bidder in return for a shiny jet and a quicky upgrade. Then, when this lo-cost hell turns out to be a little bit hotter than anticipated, you want communism to come to the rescue...
Hahahahaha!
Have fun in DXB (located in that religious powder keg called the Middle East!) preaching your new found love for the teachings of a certain Karl Marx, and in doing so, remember what good ol' Karl had to say about "religion being the opiate for the masses!"
@ RAT 5, spot on!
@ Vexed:
You see, that's the whole problem. You hope that others will leave so that somebody else again (in this case management) will magically improve T&C's without you lifting a finger. Well....that ain't gonna happen dude! You don't magically "get" anything in this world, you'll have to grab the bull by the horns yourself!
First you make a capitalistic deal with the devil selling your soul to the highest bidder in return for a shiny jet and a quicky upgrade. Then, when this lo-cost hell turns out to be a little bit hotter than anticipated, you want communism to come to the rescue...
Hahahahaha!
Have fun in DXB (located in that religious powder keg called the Middle East!) preaching your new found love for the teachings of a certain Karl Marx, and in doing so, remember what good ol' Karl had to say about "religion being the opiate for the masses!"
@ RAT 5, spot on!
@ Vexed:
Personally I hope there is an exodus - it's the only way some people will get to see an improvement in their t&c's.
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Maverick,
3 ways: fight, fight, and fight.
I'm with you guys, not against.
bonernow,
The opportunity will come again, and Ryanair pilots will have to be ready when it comes.
"If the pilots would actually fight for themselves". That's right, nobody is going to fight for them. Not even many of Ryanair pilots will. So, there is no other way but fight, fight, and fight.
If your are planning on staying at Ryanair until you retire and not taking all this crap then you'll have to fight to fix the place.
How I'll do it:
Form an in-house union so you can deal with the problem of all the different bases. Affiliate that union to all the national unions, BALPA, SEPLA, etc.
Seek for professional advice.
Convince management that having a happy workforce is for the benefit of everybody; the company and the workforce. A happy workforce is more productive than an unhappy one.
And be ready to strike if you need to. Airplanes don't fly without pilots, and airlines don't make money with the airplanes on the ground.
The company has more to lose than the pilots, it is making a LOT of money
and management would not want a strike and lose money. The pilots can always go somewhere else.
3 ways: fight, fight, and fight.
I'm with you guys, not against.
bonernow,
The opportunity will come again, and Ryanair pilots will have to be ready when it comes.
"If the pilots would actually fight for themselves". That's right, nobody is going to fight for them. Not even many of Ryanair pilots will. So, there is no other way but fight, fight, and fight.
If your are planning on staying at Ryanair until you retire and not taking all this crap then you'll have to fight to fix the place.
How I'll do it:
Form an in-house union so you can deal with the problem of all the different bases. Affiliate that union to all the national unions, BALPA, SEPLA, etc.
Seek for professional advice.
Convince management that having a happy workforce is for the benefit of everybody; the company and the workforce. A happy workforce is more productive than an unhappy one.
And be ready to strike if you need to. Airplanes don't fly without pilots, and airlines don't make money with the airplanes on the ground.
The company has more to lose than the pilots, it is making a LOT of money
and management would not want a strike and lose money. The pilots can always go somewhere else.
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@Doug the head i think you hit the nail on the head and its great to see people finally singing from the same hym sheet.
If we take the Allied pilots Association for a quick example they have come threw some just adverse situations as we do in Ryanair with American Airlines.
In a deeply anti union country they have won better terms and conditions.But they did it threw very good organisation and teamwork working togetheir.They realised that every pilot needs to do something not just join a union but work towards achieving its goals,and be prepared to strike if neccesary.
As a reluctant contracter im aware that i have just as much rights as an employee under irish law.
The reality is the management will continue to squeese and squeese the pilots for maximum work rate and minimal pay back until we stand up to them and say enough is enough but it takes every one of YOU...
For me almost every pilot agrees that we need to stand up to them..But some will always fall victim to the Ryanair propaganda and im sure it wont be long before we hear it here.
If we take the Allied pilots Association for a quick example they have come threw some just adverse situations as we do in Ryanair with American Airlines.
In a deeply anti union country they have won better terms and conditions.But they did it threw very good organisation and teamwork working togetheir.They realised that every pilot needs to do something not just join a union but work towards achieving its goals,and be prepared to strike if neccesary.
As a reluctant contracter im aware that i have just as much rights as an employee under irish law.
The reality is the management will continue to squeese and squeese the pilots for maximum work rate and minimal pay back until we stand up to them and say enough is enough but it takes every one of YOU...
For me almost every pilot agrees that we need to stand up to them..But some will always fall victim to the Ryanair propaganda and im sure it wont be long before we hear it here.
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Doug
@ Doug: What the hell are you talking about?
i think u mistaken me for someone else, i was always thinking this way since i started my career 12 years ago in what was a Legacy Carrier, still a FO because i left a low cost when disgusted, and now on the way to another Legacy, so i think u really got all wrong about who i am.
Anyways, if you really like the free market you are free to give up and accept its misery.
i think u mistaken me for someone else, i was always thinking this way since i started my career 12 years ago in what was a Legacy Carrier, still a FO because i left a low cost when disgusted, and now on the way to another Legacy, so i think u really got all wrong about who i am.
Anyways, if you really like the free market you are free to give up and accept its misery.
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Cause the Legacy is Turkish Airlines.
(Pilot Jobs Network - for students of pilot schools and experienced airline pilots calls Turkish Airlines a Legacy, before you comment)
D
(Pilot Jobs Network - for students of pilot schools and experienced airline pilots calls Turkish Airlines a Legacy, before you comment)
D
I have absolutely no problem reading about how you are all going to apply pressure and Marxist policies etc etc to solve the problem of management versus pilots as you perceive it.
With 46 years of experience in this business I have to tell you that I have heard it all before.
What I do have a problem with is the wonderful title of this thread and the word "exodus" in particular.
Perhaps some of you experts out there (including, and especially the starter of the thread) could give us your definition of the word "exodus".
My concise Oxford dictionary gives me:
"Departure, going forth (esp. of body of emigrants); departure of Israelites from Egypt;"
Now, the funny thing is that every single company that I have ever worked for (apart from Mrs Windsor and Fred Laker) went through what the promising hysterics among you called an "exodus" - sometimes on an annual basis. Not one of those companies actually suffered such an "exodus" such that the management actually gave a sh*t.
Trying to explain to them that losing 5% of a highly trained workforce and that each pilot had cost £20 - £30,000 to train always fell upon deaf ears. No one in management gave a toss about such figures. In terms of operating costs, such a loss was considered to be insignificant.
Nowadays, when the company concerned doesn't even have to pay for the training required for a type-rating and, indeed, might even make a small profit from this process, the loss of even 10% of the work force per annum would not even begin to concern them.
I have even been heavily involved in the process of getting the management to treat the pilots more decently so as to "retain the workforce" and that failed miserably because the dis-satisfied pilots were going to go off anyway to pastures green.
Anyway, keep beating your gums and coming up with the ultimate solution to all of our problems.
Those of us who have been around for the best part of half a century will be fascinated to see how far you get.
With 46 years of experience in this business I have to tell you that I have heard it all before.
What I do have a problem with is the wonderful title of this thread and the word "exodus" in particular.
Perhaps some of you experts out there (including, and especially the starter of the thread) could give us your definition of the word "exodus".
My concise Oxford dictionary gives me:
"Departure, going forth (esp. of body of emigrants); departure of Israelites from Egypt;"
Now, the funny thing is that every single company that I have ever worked for (apart from Mrs Windsor and Fred Laker) went through what the promising hysterics among you called an "exodus" - sometimes on an annual basis. Not one of those companies actually suffered such an "exodus" such that the management actually gave a sh*t.
Trying to explain to them that losing 5% of a highly trained workforce and that each pilot had cost £20 - £30,000 to train always fell upon deaf ears. No one in management gave a toss about such figures. In terms of operating costs, such a loss was considered to be insignificant.
Nowadays, when the company concerned doesn't even have to pay for the training required for a type-rating and, indeed, might even make a small profit from this process, the loss of even 10% of the work force per annum would not even begin to concern them.
I have even been heavily involved in the process of getting the management to treat the pilots more decently so as to "retain the workforce" and that failed miserably because the dis-satisfied pilots were going to go off anyway to pastures green.
Anyway, keep beating your gums and coming up with the ultimate solution to all of our problems.
Those of us who have been around for the best part of half a century will be fascinated to see how far you get.
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Maybe we should ask the Air France guys how they managed to keep their T and C and ask ourself and the one around for 50 years how we managed to get to this point.
I remember my father speaking of a general contract for pilots in the 80s, and it all still makes sense, and there is nothing so USSR in it. Who says it is, it is probably one around for a long time and now enjoying the fruit of being needed at short notice for this or that contract, for those silly startup operations in dunnonda or whatever.
Lets try to analyze the industry on a longer term prosperity fashion.
I only simply say : lawyers, bankers and factory workers have a general contract with minimum wages because part of a category, so since we also have a common license and common skills we sell, we should all get the same basic minimum wage, that grows with experience on a recognized level such as Hours, Training Roles, Managements Roles.
Easy to discard it just cause it's hard to achieve.
D
I remember my father speaking of a general contract for pilots in the 80s, and it all still makes sense, and there is nothing so USSR in it. Who says it is, it is probably one around for a long time and now enjoying the fruit of being needed at short notice for this or that contract, for those silly startup operations in dunnonda or whatever.
Lets try to analyze the industry on a longer term prosperity fashion.
I only simply say : lawyers, bankers and factory workers have a general contract with minimum wages because part of a category, so since we also have a common license and common skills we sell, we should all get the same basic minimum wage, that grows with experience on a recognized level such as Hours, Training Roles, Managements Roles.
Easy to discard it just cause it's hard to achieve.
D
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I remember the days when I worked for a small fresh charter airline. It was the baby of the boss and the jewel in his eye. The Financial Director was as anti-union as every one else in management. He took great delight in devising extreme policies to discourage pilots from becoming members of the national union. Penalties: sound familiar. He said the company could not afford it. T's & C's were the bottom of the national pile. We tried to form an internal committee to negotiate with him. Resisted. We said it would be a pilots' association. No, No, No. Would not discuss it. I asked him about his membership of the accountants' & fiance directors' association. It was there is discuss general standards in the industry, nationaly. A cartel of sorts that fixed hourly rates and conditions etc. He would not respond to his hypocracy. The company went bust 3 years later after a salary cut at the coal face but sweet fruits shared each year amongst management (bonuses). Not a union insight. It went bust a further 3 times before being rescued by a larger patent, and still enjoys the bottom of the pile T's & C's despite being a member of the union. Strength of argument stood for nix. Moral argument stood for nix. Hypocracy won the day and weak willed employees got screwed, 'helping the company'. That was 20 years ago. No doubt Eastern guys can tell simliar stories. Easy guys perhaps also. One things for sure, airline managers are not silver hearted charities. There is a college in the sky that produces these types. They are in every airline. It churns them out by the dozens and they always survive, even after failure, and end up doing it all over again. The good guys you never hear of. Are there any out there? They operate directly opposite to all accepted modern industrial relations philosophies. I often asked why and never received an answer. They wouldn't last a wink outside a non-vocational industry. Why? Ask yourselves and weep.
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Hi Damianik,
Sorry for having blown some of your statements a bit out of proportion. I was merely having a bit of fun with the pro-communism angle.
In general I mostly agree with the idea of your posts, however I do think that in the end it's the pilots that will have to negotiate a better deal, instead of depending on government agencies (i.e. communism/socialism) to set up minimum wages etc.
Let the market decide the wages. One of the main reasons for the decay in T&C's IMHO is the continuous increase in the supply of desperate, wet behind the ears, frozen ATPL pilots.
It's a clever ploy from banks, airlines and flying schools to completely distort the demand/supply side of pilots by selling naive 18 years olds the dream of becoming an airline pilot. It's these poor youngsters (and their parents who mortgage the house to back up the loan!) that bear most of the risks. The banks (interest) the airlines (selling type ratings, lowering T&C's) and flying schools (customers) are the ones that are profiting the most.
Forget the general media, the regulators or politicians! It's here on PPRuNe (and similar international forums) that we have to make aspiring pilots aware of the enormous financial risks involved and the bleak outlook on recovering the huge investments necessary to become a pilot. I certainly discourage anyone I speak to who wants to become a pilot from mortgaging their (and their parent's) savings in chase of a Fata Morgana.
On topic, I wish all the Ryanair pilots the best in their quest for a better life, but I seriously doubt that fleeing to the Middle East will change things in the long run.
Sorry for having blown some of your statements a bit out of proportion. I was merely having a bit of fun with the pro-communism angle.
In general I mostly agree with the idea of your posts, however I do think that in the end it's the pilots that will have to negotiate a better deal, instead of depending on government agencies (i.e. communism/socialism) to set up minimum wages etc.
Let the market decide the wages. One of the main reasons for the decay in T&C's IMHO is the continuous increase in the supply of desperate, wet behind the ears, frozen ATPL pilots.
It's a clever ploy from banks, airlines and flying schools to completely distort the demand/supply side of pilots by selling naive 18 years olds the dream of becoming an airline pilot. It's these poor youngsters (and their parents who mortgage the house to back up the loan!) that bear most of the risks. The banks (interest) the airlines (selling type ratings, lowering T&C's) and flying schools (customers) are the ones that are profiting the most.
Forget the general media, the regulators or politicians! It's here on PPRuNe (and similar international forums) that we have to make aspiring pilots aware of the enormous financial risks involved and the bleak outlook on recovering the huge investments necessary to become a pilot. I certainly discourage anyone I speak to who wants to become a pilot from mortgaging their (and their parent's) savings in chase of a Fata Morgana.
On topic, I wish all the Ryanair pilots the best in their quest for a better life, but I seriously doubt that fleeing to the Middle East will change things in the long run.
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Agree with your post now, Doug,
but i still think u mistaken me for someone else :-)
Anyways , in most of the cases it is impossible to leave the negotiation of such and important thing like minimum wages,or maximum working hours, minimum rest etc to "pilots". The governments and also the authorities need to be involved, or we will always face at least 10% of the pilots that will go the "extra mile" (to the bottom) and lower the T&C or even fly that little more, and go around that little less....see where i am going with this? when the management can say what they want to us, they couldnt fight the law that will be valid for all of us as the Class 1 medical, the ATPL Theory, and all that we have in common with each other. And if anyone of you think that this will create a problem for struggling airlines to cope, i answer let them die and lets see how many pilots a group of solid, profit making airlines can hire, i bet the same number of pilots that now are struggling to make a living while flying a single 737 of an airline fleet of 1...what we need are more pilots and less directors of this, director of that...less airlines, more planes, better rules, more respect, less cutting corners, more barriers to enter the market both for pilots and airlines! half of the 18 years old guys wouldnt pass an airline selection for a cadetship nowdays, let them face with the harsh truth!
but i still think u mistaken me for someone else :-)
Anyways , in most of the cases it is impossible to leave the negotiation of such and important thing like minimum wages,or maximum working hours, minimum rest etc to "pilots". The governments and also the authorities need to be involved, or we will always face at least 10% of the pilots that will go the "extra mile" (to the bottom) and lower the T&C or even fly that little more, and go around that little less....see where i am going with this? when the management can say what they want to us, they couldnt fight the law that will be valid for all of us as the Class 1 medical, the ATPL Theory, and all that we have in common with each other. And if anyone of you think that this will create a problem for struggling airlines to cope, i answer let them die and lets see how many pilots a group of solid, profit making airlines can hire, i bet the same number of pilots that now are struggling to make a living while flying a single 737 of an airline fleet of 1...what we need are more pilots and less directors of this, director of that...less airlines, more planes, better rules, more respect, less cutting corners, more barriers to enter the market both for pilots and airlines! half of the 18 years old guys wouldnt pass an airline selection for a cadetship nowdays, let them face with the harsh truth!
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It's an interesting comment on our priorities and ethics when a group of people can band together to have a winge and a moan about spilled coffee/ late trains or whatever, lying down and banging their fists on the ground howling "It's just not fair!" like a 4 year old.
This is called a Class Action.
Another group of people can band together to try to persuade the mill owner to agree to better T&Cs.
This is called communism.
This is called a Class Action.
Another group of people can band together to try to persuade the mill owner to agree to better T&Cs.
This is called communism.
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Vexed,
You're right it is not that simple. It is very hard and complicated, indeed.
And your biggest obstacle would be your fellow pilots.
No, I'm not a Ryanair employee or ever was. I am retired and it sadens me
a lot seeing this profession going down the tubes, it really does.
You're right it is not that simple. It is very hard and complicated, indeed.
And your biggest obstacle would be your fellow pilots.
No, I'm not a Ryanair employee or ever was. I am retired and it sadens me
a lot seeing this profession going down the tubes, it really does.
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Is there a way of knowing how many are moving on? I know certainly of 6. Maybe its a case of come the summer schedule looking at the departure board and seeing 'cancelled' next to your flight to the summer sun? Maybe MOL couldn't give a **** if there isn't enough bums to put on the front two seats of his 737s? Could it be that the big pot of cash will be wasted on wet leasing (did it before with Futura etc) rather than investing it in his crew? Would it ever get that extreme or will we all be on a 6/1/6/2 come the summer?
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Hey Kilo,
Think the exodus is quite substantial, but that just me extrapolating, were a small base and I know of 3 going for sure and many talking about it and heading for interview. Also know of a few in STN leaving, and I only know a few in STN !
As you say, its going to be an interesting summer, or maybe they have some ace up their sleeve? Speaking of ACE, rumor has it they are having trouble crewing the canaries.
Heres to interesting times ahead, hopefully for a change we will be in the bargaining chair....
Goose
Think the exodus is quite substantial, but that just me extrapolating, were a small base and I know of 3 going for sure and many talking about it and heading for interview. Also know of a few in STN leaving, and I only know a few in STN !
As you say, its going to be an interesting summer, or maybe they have some ace up their sleeve? Speaking of ACE, rumor has it they are having trouble crewing the canaries.
Heres to interesting times ahead, hopefully for a change we will be in the bargaining chair....
Goose
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From what I've gathered there are plenty leaving. I know at least 10, and quite a few Capts. Not all to the desert though.
I'm lining up a few exits, will do my command hopefully next month do 500 and then go start a 'real' career.
Just out of interest anyone actually know if any Ryanair guys were offered jobs at BA? I know of about 20 gone, all failed! Myself included. I know it sounds like I'm a soreloser, but couldn't help feel unwelcome the whole day I was there, I hope the Ryanair brush hasn't tarred a stereotype of unable pilots as I couldn't disagree more. Be happy to hear that someone actually did get in!
I'm lining up a few exits, will do my command hopefully next month do 500 and then go start a 'real' career.
Just out of interest anyone actually know if any Ryanair guys were offered jobs at BA? I know of about 20 gone, all failed! Myself included. I know it sounds like I'm a soreloser, but couldn't help feel unwelcome the whole day I was there, I hope the Ryanair brush hasn't tarred a stereotype of unable pilots as I couldn't disagree more. Be happy to hear that someone actually did get in!